I think the concept of diminishing returns is really significant here. There are narrative reasons that a DM might put certain encounters ahead of you in initiative order. Beyond those, if you can score above 20 consistently, you're pretty solid. I played a War Wiz with the Alert feat for a bit, and that was sufficient to be first almost every encounter, even though I'm legendary for rolling poorly. This was a low level game, and I think both my DEX and INT were 16, making my INIT bonus 11. The fact that I can consistently roll below 10 on a d20 means that I was mostly turning in Initiative scores of 16-19 in that game, and that's STILL usually sufficient to go before the monsters. BUT... My biggest issue with Initiative is the other players. It is essentially impossible to get the other players to hold back their stupid for even a single round. INVARIABLY, there will be another player who rolls very high and goes before me, and this player will ALWAYS do whatever action is the absolute worst thing possible. It's as reliable as gravity and sunrise.
@@phelps6205 exactly!! Or another one is an Assassin Rogue who insists on ranged ahead of the group, trying to get his Surprise attack. But then, when he triggers initiative, nobody else is in a position to do anything useful. Then, even if I win initiative, there best options are already ruined.
This is very recognizable. In one of my campaigns there is someone that always works against me it looks like. One time I had a big group of enemies incapacitated in a Hypnotic Pattern and she decided to cast Tidel Wave over them.
One of the nicest DM's and people i ever met eventually had to give up playing with each other b/c the barbarian-like fellow wouldn't stop charging in before the wizard wanted to drop a fireball. I'm sure the wizard asked him nicely lots of times, please wait one round. I havent seen that reckless barbarian since. o.o
So my Artificer has a Weapon of warning and access to gift of alacrity through Fey Touched. So that’s advantage with an additional D8… and I can always Flash of Genius. Plus immunity to surprise. Hopefully this will help me keep my party from dying.
@@The_Gnome_Chomskee If you don't have a special item from you're antidotal DM, no one can stop you as Artificer from getting Helm of Awareness. While wearing this helmet, a creature has advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, the wearer can’t be surprised, provided it isn’t incapacitated.
Actually the watcher Paladin aura do stack. It does not "let you add PB to initiative", it gives a bonus that is numerically equal to (the Paladin's) PB
If you're talking about stacking with itself/the same aura from another paladin, it doesn't. (not sure what part of the video you're referring to) This is covered under the general rules for effects with the same name. If you're talking about it stacking with Harengon, it definitely doesn't. Adding your proficiency bonus, and getting a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus are the same thing, and are covered by this explicit clause within the rules: "If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once." It explicitly calls out strange circumstances that even suggest you might count your PB more than once, even beyond the already explicit wording that you can only add it once. Any circumstance that might suggest getting your PB more than once, you don't. Note that this clause doesn't make the distinction you've made between adding and getting a bonus, it simply says, "applies more than once for the same roll". They could not have made it more clear that it never gets added to the same roll more than once.
You didn’t include the guardian minor property from the DMG. It’s a +2 to initiative. Although, very few DMs customize things like +1 swords with the minor properties table, so I can see how it was missed. Great, informative video as always.
@@TiasVsEverything I just got reminded of it when I was doing a reread. All those special property tables in the DMG are great. My players are gonna be getting a lot more cool magic items now.
Got that on a hammer for my 8 dex tempest Cleric. Paired with a sentinel shield, keeps me somewhat in the middle of initiative order, at least. Definitely don't plan on dumping Dex on a future character, though. Haha
In my favorite setting of D&D, Planescape, I was a member of the Transcendent Order faction. They had interesting pros and cons: Pro: +2 to Initiative (relatively unheard of in 2nd ed. a huge bonus) Con: Whatever you first declare for your action, you are committed to. No takebacks. After several years of playing this way, it really honed my tactical decision making over many campaigns.
I’ve used a Circle of Stars Druid’s Cosmic Omen to alter another character’s initiative roll. Cost me a reaction and one of my uses but the fight was between a PC (my PC’s best friend at that) and what I’m pretty sure now was a Rakshasa. It didn’t work for that specific story because my friend rolled like dogshit, but I felt super fucking clever trying it :P
As I mentioned elsewhere, you don't gain a reaction until your first turn in combat. By definition, you don't have a reaction until your first turn in combat. Thus you can't use reactions like cutting words to affect the initiative, whether you are suprised or not. Alert and Weapon of Warning affect whether you waste your turn or not (surprise) but they don't allow you to get reactions before your first turn in combat.
@@gigglestomp5403 Could you point to that reference? To my knowledge, it is only when you are surprised that you have no reaction until you are not surprised anymore (when you have had your first turn in combat).
@@Magnushamann @Absol StoryofFiction COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP 1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised. 2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction. 3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns. 4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. >>A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's.
No no, see... You MC Gloom Stalker with 11 levels of Swashbuckler on a Harengon, alert feat. Lucky not required. Assuming base numbers of +3 dex, wis, and cha by that point, and a 4 prof bonus, you have a +18 to initiative and can't roll below a 10 on the die, so your minimum Initiative is 28.
Per your comment that it doesn't matter how much you win initiative by as long as you win - in at least one version of Shadowrun characters would get additional turns per round of combat by acting again on their initiative -10 as long as that was a positive number (i.e., going on 28, then again on 18, then again on 8). You're absolutely correct that in 5e winning initiative by more does nothing except ensure that by having a high bonus we're usually going first every combat. However, in your video about rules borrowed from other games, this was always something that intrigued me as a way to balance dextrous characters not using Sharpshooter, like Monks and some Rogues.
I found in Shadowrun (there were other systems that did similar things. I'm trying to think of the names but I'm blanking right now), making initiative that important ended up overwhelmingly the focus in character creation which was unfortunate.
I do agree that the multiple turns per round from shadowrun can become a massive focus for character builds (once played a gunbunny build that on average pooled about 30 Ini.) But in the same vein as snagging a rule. How about snagging the rule about re-rolling of Initiative after each round? That way it's a bit more hectic and chaotic, feeling the heat and randomness of battle. Maybe even giving bonuses or penalties to those new initiative rolls depending on outcomes previous rounds? Like a character/monster is now bloodied, and at or below half health, that character/monster might have a penalty on the roll because of their mounting wounds.
11:22 Aura of protection is specifically worded in a way that let's you add it on top of a normal Charisma saving throw. Note that the feature states "the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Charisma modifier", meaning that it is a generic, stackable bonus that happens to have the same value as your charisma modifier. Same thing with the Alchemist Artificer's lvl 5 feature: "you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. [...] the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)." The Flash of Genius feature, same as a few others, word it as you directly adding a modifier to a roll, not adding a bonus that is equal to a modifier. "you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll". Same thing with the features that add your proficiency bonus. Edit: Oath of the Watchers also words it like the first two features I mentioned, so I think it should also stack with other features like Hare-trigger
I'm pretty sure that the Gunslinger subclass for fighters also gets to add their proficiency bonus to initiative rolls. That's at level 7, similar to the Watchers paladin. EDIT: There are also other benefits to playing a gunslinger for this concept. Fighters get extra ASIs, allowing more freedom to bump your stats or take Alert, and Gunslingers tend to have high Dexterity and Wisdom (for their guns and for Grit Points), so a Gloomstalker and/or Twilight Cleric dip isn’t a bad idea either.
I recently played a Twilight Cleric and the party found a Sentinel Shield as loot. Since I was the only party member using a shield (and the party tank) I took the shield which meant I could assign my Vigilant Blessing to another party member. The bonus here was that as a primary caster I always had advantage on initiative, and I could assign advantage to one other party member based on the situational need. Big mob of mooks? Here's advantage on initiative Wizard, hit 'em with a fireball. Solo caster in the rear? Here's advantage on initiative Monk, go lock him down. :D
technically the oath of watchers ability gives a bonus equal to your proficiency modifer not proficiency in initative, so haregon or jack of all trades stacks with aura of the sentinel, but haregon and jack of all trades don't stack with each other
Eh… that’s an awful lot of weight to put in the difference between “gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus” (aura) and “add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls”. Especially since one of the other Harengon abilities is “you are proficient in perception.”
Even if it were ultimately ruled that the bonuses from harengon and aura of the sentinel don't stack, you could get around it by having the paladin as a separate team member. Then you wouldn't be adding your proficiency bonus twice, but rather adding your proficiency bonus and their proficiency bonus once each.
I am unsure if RAW works, but another way to boost initiative if needed is Hobgoblin Saving Face: once per short rest when you miss with an attack roll or fail an ability check or a saving throw, you can gain a bonus to the roll equal to the number of allies you can see within 30 feet of you. If you read the context of the feature, being low on Initiative could be counted as a failure for your pg and let you apply the bonus. I recently realized how good and undervalued this feature is, especially since it doesn't use your reaction. You can stack it with other class features such as Divine Soul Sorcerer "Favored by the Gods", War Wizard "Arcane Deflection" or Artificer "Flash of Genius" and achieve a bonus of +9/+10 on attacks, checks and most important of all saving throws.
One of my backup hip-pocket characters is a Harengon Gloom Stalker/Battlemaster with the Ambush Maneuver who will pick up Alert some time after taking Sharpshooter.
@@bearinabag2448 I don't believe you can take expertise in initiative, as initiative is a skill check, not a skill, and you may only gain expertise in skills or tools.
I have a character build for this that has been sitting in my concept characters for a while. Every table I've thought of using it, though, it has been banned from. The Build: Race: Harengon Background: Any, but one of the Strixhaven Initiates would be preferable Classes: Swashbuckler 4 for Rakish Audacity and a Feat Gloom Stalker 4 for Dread Ambusher and a Feat Chronurgist 2 for Temporal Awareness Armorer 10 for Armor Model, Flash of Genius, Armor Modifications, Magic Item Adept, and 2 Feats. The Feats: 1: Alert - +5 to Initiative and can't be surprised 2: Lucky - Reroll any d20 roll 3 times/day 3: War Caster - Adv. on CON saves to maintain concentration on spells when you take damage and casting while your hands are full. 4: Resilient CON - +1 to CON score and Proficiency in CON saves. Magic Items: Scorpion Armor! - Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing saying that your chosen armor for Armor Model HAS to be mundane! This cursed armor provides a +5 to initiative but deals significant poison damage when you don/doff it. Easily avoidable if you have the knowledge, otherwise you only get 1/4 HP back on long rests and have to find other means to reduce exhaustion. Stone of Good Luck - +1 to all ability checks and saving throws! Initiative IS an ability check folks! Ioun Stone of Mastery - This Incredibly rare stone increases your proficiency bonus by +1! WOW! If you're a power gamer/optimizer then you should know how big of a deal that is! Sentinel Shield - Non-attunement shield that grants advantage on initiative rolls and perception checks (Oh hey, we got prof in those from Harengon!). This is a staple of the build. Pretty easy to acquire. Sword of Kas - As explained in the video, a sentient sword that seeks the destruction of Vecna, grants you +1d10 to all initiative rolls as long as it's on your person. You NEVER have to use it! (Your DM may or may not have this cause adverse effects) Stats: You can do point buy with this, but you're going to be average at best. For best results, I recommend rolling for stats and hoping you get lucky. Take a +2 to DEX and +1 to either INT/WIS/CHA. Point Buy Spread: Str: 8 Dex: 14 (for a 16 total) Con: 9 (for 10 total with Resilient feat) Int/Wis/Cha: Set the one you picked a racial bonus to to 13 and the other two to 14. This is purely for maximum bonus to initiative, I'm sure there are MUCH better spreads that will make a better overall character. This setup will always net you an initiative of at least 40 if you forget to roll your extras and apply your spells and reaction. Should you remember everything it would look something like this: 1d20(with advantage)+39+1d10(Sword of Kas)+1d8(Gift of Alacrity) for an average initiative roll of 63. (Min: 42, Max: 77) If your DM lets you obtain Skill books you can add an additional +4 to your initiative by increasing your DEX+INT+WIS+CHA by +2 each bringing your Min/Avg/Max to 46/67/81. (If you waste all 3 lucky rolls on a single initiative roll, the average becomes 69. You're welcome.) Side Note: Resilient CON is NOT a MUST have so it can be replaced with any other feat. I just chose it to make Concentration saves trivial. This build took a lot of work and math, hope you all enjoy playing the Lucky Rabbit! :)
My arcane trickster had a +3 long bow with bracers of archery and a weapon of warning. With my plus 5 to dex I almost always won initiative. So I would usually use my first turn to steady aim and hammer on the most high value target available.
Pathfinder 1e had an explicit rule about adding your Intelligence (or other ability) Modifier multiple times to one check, citing it as a named bonus, allowing it to fall under a more general 'You cannot stack bonuses of the same type unless otherwise specified' rule that 5e does not have.
I feel like 5E was only about halfway done defining things for ease-of-reference and rules-straightforwardness in abilities and such, and 6E will do well to finish the task. Like with weapons that aren't weapons but do weapon attacks or whatever. Scrap all that, just say all things attacked-with are weapons. Done, solved. No more language mud. Stuff like that. Clean up all the unintuitive stuff, basically.
Two things I believe worthy of mention: 1. The target initiative to beat is a pretty nifty thing to keep in mind. I am no initiative-mancer but I believe +8 to +9 are the high-end for monsters, so you just need to be able to beat that somewhat reliably. A lvl 2 VH War Wizard that took Alert as his first feat for some reason is going to be pretty much set for life with his mighty +11 without sacrificing overly much. 2. Beware Legendary Actions, which tend to mitigate some of the impact of high initiative. That being said, having the monster blow one of his legendary actions to move around and prevent your best case scenario is still a win.
What a great video. I have currently come into realization how I accidentally came into a very high inish character. I started as a variet human (feat: Fey Touched) and as a Twilight Cleric. After two levels and a Amulet of the Devout I multi classed into Star druid and have made it 4 levels in and took the feat (Alert). The synergy these classes have makes for exceptional variety and powerful combinations. I don't feel I have given up anything and Cosmic Omen is just about within reach along with upcast third level druid spells. Absolutly amazing. Advantage on roll from Vigilant Blessing, dex mod, d8 "Gift of Alacrity" from Fey Touched Feat and +5 from Alert. And with Cosmic Omen often going to add another d6. Or take away from enemy depending on Weal or Woe.
this video really shows how the text could have been improved (or so i think). Instead of When you or ... rolls a etc. "Before you or an ally rolls a check you can... " or "After you or ally rolls".
In the Wildemount campaign I play in, we use talent trees, and we get talent points at proficiency increases in addition to converting ASIs to talent points (each feat is broken in half, except half feats), so all our characters are a little stronger and a little feat-heavy. My Chronurgist has the trait from the Alert feat that lets him add 5 to his initiative, and one from another tree that allows him to replace his dexterity in the initiative roll with intelligence. He has a +15 to initiative. It was so funny to roll his initiative for the first time in his first session (which was at level 9 or 10) and see people's reactions to that +15. That combat effectively ended immediately after his turn as he cast wall of force on the only enemy attacking us.
I've spent a long time deliberating over this for my most recent character. I had many things I wanted to try out that I'd never done before: high initiative, as much multiclassing as possible while still being (somewhat) coherant, an archer (with elven accuracy and sharpshooter), ranged smites, along with a bit of magic. Ended up with initiative +12 that I figured was sufficient: Hexblade 5 with Eldritch Smite (dex to 22 instead of charisma, just for something different), Whispers Bard 5 (smite with Psychic blades on crit, that refreshes on SR), Battlemaster 4 (action surge and can add a maneuver on a crit), Gloomstalker 3 (usual combo, dread ambusher + action surge, that I never actually used to spare my DM), Assassin 3 (for Assassinate, a reason to want high initiative, plus to get the most out of elven accuracy). Was tempted to add in a level of Twilight Cleric, or drop a class to take Alert, but was a satisfying build. Typically has a great first round, but then drops off (especially if disadvantage is imposed somehow). Obviously if I'd pushed for just high initiative I could've gotten higher numbers, with at least considering the two options of roughly +12 (with advantage), or +15, but sacrificed both for a bit more magic (adding in and taking the Bard to level 5).
@@reedsmith8975 does that work? Since you already add your proficiency bonus by being a harengon. Or is this some rule interpretation stuff where "add your proficiency bonus" might not be the same as being proficient.
One spell I like is “Jim’s glowing coin” gives enemy’s disadvantage one initiative rolls and perception checks if they fail a save, has to be used before combats tho, great spell in the right situation.
In a similar vein to Jack of All Trades, Champion Fighters also get half their proficiency bonus added to Dexterity checks (and thus to their initiative rolls), starting at 7th level, due to Remarkable Athlete.
If you know you are going to get in a fight, Bardic Inspiration and Guidance apply to the initiative roll as well. My Lore bard rolled in the 30s with a bad roll (he also had Gift of Alacrity).
I use a GS Ranger with Alert and the +11 really helps. And while his first round strikes aren't usually able to take out the biggest threat, they have been able to thin out herds thus preventing getting surrounded. The rest of the party is pretty fast as well and can usually implement some battlefield control.
Best possible initiative with point buy: Harengon Swashbuckler 12 Gloomstalker 8 (Could take 4 of the Gloomstalker levels and switch them for 4 Twilight levels and get advantage but Twilight is OP). 6ASIs so take Alert, 20 DEX, 20 WIS, 18 CHA, 8 everything else. +25 to initiative, with reliable talent lowest possible roll of 35. This is pretty stupid since if a monster with a DEX of 30 rolled a Nat 20 for initiative, you would still be 5 above them. Better version of this would be a pure Swashbuckler Harengon with Alert, and 20 DEX and CHA and rest of your stats however you want (CON isn't a dump stat now) and you still have a + 21 to initiative and a lowest possible roll of 31, which still beats the highest possible Initiative for a Monster.
Surprise can be as good as winning initiative, better even as they don't get reactions if you also win initiative. Also, naturally, the enemy won't have seen you so your first attack will be with advantage. Thought even if you are surprised it's important to beat as many enemies initiative as possible as you don't get to use your reaction until you've finished your "surprise turn".
Helm of Awareness is a big one my Artificer has for an infusion, While wearing this helmet, a creature has advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, the wearer can’t be surprised, provided it isn’t incapacitated.
A variant human Chronurgist Wizard who chooses Fey Touched - Gift of Alacrity and one level dip into Twilight Cleric will almost always go first even on higher levels. This is pretty huge for a Wizard. And these (sub)classes and feats are already among the best. You will have 19 AC base with medium armor and a shield, darkvision which you normally don't have as a human and will outscale a majority of the classes because you are a Wizard. The only problem I see is that a DM won't allow all this together.
I'm taking a guess that one of the builds will be a Harengon Swashbuckler. It keeps your base initiative so high without sacrificing anything. I'm going to add Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity on this as well as Alert. Assuming a 20 Dex and a 16 Charisma, your minimum initiative at level 13 is a 29, and that is with a roll of 1 on your Gift of Alacrity. Your average would be 35. Reliable talent synergizes so well with the Harengon, it is hard to ignore.
you can't use bend luck to change initiative order, you can't use a reaction before you had your own turn when initiative is already determined. At best you can use bardic inspiration by giving it in advance as a prebuff
If the DM already allows the Help action from Familiars anyway, I think it would work, if you express your intent as instructing your Familiar to maintain constant vigiliance of your surroundings, warning you when something dangerous happens - I am imagining an old-west style gunfight, and your familiar taps you on the neck or the ear when it spots someone about to draw on you out of a crowd of people. I wouldn't even try it at most tables.
I am playing a Lvl 8 shepherd druid atm and have a 16 dex. I also took the Alert Feat and have a sentinel shield. So, at the moment, I have a +8 to initiative, rolled at Advantage. Pretty nice to be able to set up battlefield controls at the outset of combat. Depending on the situation, I would either cast conjure animals or plant growth. Since we homebrew that the conjured beasts go after the summoner, I can usually conjure 8 or 16 buff giant owls, then call the bear spirit totem, then have them attack.
This is very relevant given I'm currently playing an ambusher Gloomstalker/Assassin Rogue character who intends to pick up Alert at level 9. I should see about getting my hands on a bow of Warning.
It is worth noting that you should consider what you will do with your high initiative. I've seen players build their characters to max initiative to the detriment of everything else and they roll 32 initiative and have no effective actions to take.
There can be an advantage to some builds going later in the order, and "batting clean-up", picking already injured targets to take down, like with auto-damage from a magic missile. That's advantageous to the party, maybe not the individual.
To clarify, wouldn't reaction-based increases to initiative (Cutting Words) be unusable? You don't gain your reaction until your first turn. This is also why you cant use opportunity attacks until your turn on the first round of combat.
During Initiative... The DM can let everyone activate their Initiative Effects since that's the only time it will work until the battle begins. Outside of the Surprise Turn... I don't know this in the rules for Initiative. But once battle begins after initiative... Reactions are all set, if you haven't used one earlier.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 this is incorrect. Cutting words is not an initiative effect. It's a reaction that broadly effects attacks, damage, and ability checks. You also don't receive your first reaction until your first turn begins. It is not gained at the top of the round. This is why surprise is vital, you can move around without provoking or completely shut down enemies on turn one if you go first or if they are suprised. There is also no surprise turn, it is a condition that prevents an individual from acting their first turn (wasting it) but they still gain a reaction once their turn ends.
@@gigglestomp5403 Under normal conditions... True. The Alert Feat and the Weapon of Warning can negate the Surprise condition and its Advantage to Hit Roll. So, using this Feat or Magical Weapon can apply the initiative effects through one Reaction, if applicable. But even then, the rules for out of combat is not the same as the rules for in combat. Provided that the Spell duration is longer than or equal to 1 minute. Otherwise, you'll waste a 6 second Spell. You can cast any Spell outside of combat before initiative is rolled, just like Sneaking/Stealth.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 You still unfortunately don't gain a reaction until your first turn in the initiative order. By then, by definition, you've already rolled initiative and combat has begun. Whether you are suprised or not, you gain your reaction on your first turn at your place on the initial tracker.
@@gigglestomp5403 I see... -Unfortunately true...- Scratch that... You still gain a Reaction in RAW if you can avoid the Surprise condition. In 5e, there is no rule which details that Reactions are not an option if you're not Surprised. Unless you mean the past Editions.
Divination Wizards can use their high Portent rolls to swap out their poor Initiatives. Similar to the Lucky feat, it is a huge resource cost but it is available if the encounter can be dramatically effected by going first.
I swapped out guidance for druidcraft because I realized I could never have guidance ready for someone to use it and was always asking if guidance could apply to checks Too much trouble than it was worth
I would like to add Jim's Glowing Coin, seriously underrated, it's from Acquisitions Incorporated so I figured cause Gift of Alacrity was discussed this might also be viable at some tables. Also Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond cause that's just the broken feature that keeps breaking.
Harengon + Gloomstalker + Twilight Cleric + Alert is my favorite combo. 🐇 The Strixhaven Background & feat might allow you to access Gift of Alacrity, if you are allowing it.
Missed Artificer level 10 Infusion Helm of Awareness. Grants advantage on Initiative and can't be surprised. Also Champion Fighter Remarkable Athlete (lvl 7) adds half Pof bonus to Initiative same as Bard.
While I get the sentiment, using your encounter if players optimize around initiative and wipe encounters I would just run more encounters. It’s a better game with challenges.
In the games I play, where your roll places you in the initiative order is public knowledge, I assumed this was the standard, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
@@TreantmonksTemple Mine as well, but I'm confused as to how you (or someone else) use a bonus action before your turn to boost your initiative roll. Unless you'd done so prior to knowing you need to roll for initiative. I guess the way it was described was a bit confusing for me
I think the idea is that the bard used bardic inspiration at some point before the initiative roll to give someone an inspiration die. When initiative is rolled, that player can expend the inspiration die (no action) to add it to their initiative result. Hope that clears it up!
@@trevorkortman4159 Agreed, that was what I was trying to get at. I guess I must have misunderstood or not heard treantmonk correctly in his description because it seemed less than clear to me. I'll go back and listen to that section again. Thanks
I don't have my players roll initiative the using the classic method anymore. It's rolled each round, the dice size changes depending on what the individual is doing, lowest numbers go first, and matching numbers result in a bind. Only one character has an ability that adjusts initiative, being the alert feat, where I made the modification a -2, effectively reducing the dice size by two, most of the time. after some use, and comparison, the feat feels right, and the method has been more engaging.
Considering Crawford has confirmed that reliable talent does actually work with Jack of all Trades, it wouldn't be far fetched to say it works with other sources of proficiency bonus in intitiative
Would you allow a Character to Sacrifice their own Init to give a Help Action to another Character? Basically, sacrificing their Init to Help another? I would, but only under specific circumstances that would make it very rare. For example, the Party would have to be the ones Initiating the Combat.
So a harengon swashbuckler rogue 3, gloomstalker ranger 3, war wizard 2, twilight cleric 1 could add: dex, int, wis, cha, and proficiency with advantage... Assuming all are 5 (unlikely) thats a 26~45 initiative
i played a character with a +12 bonus to initiative for several months and i think i went first maybe once? it ended up being a running joke throughout the campaign. every time another player or god forbid an enemy out-rolled me i'd over-act my frustration and we'd all have a laugh
I'm curious if you ever tried Combat as War in your games? Instead of engaging in balanced encounters, you stack your deck and try to avoid combat to resolve the encounter? Like caving in the dungeon, setting the room on fire, and causing enemies to suffocate and be blinded by smoke?
I think I commented this on another video, but I made a PC named Rifog, a harengon charlatan twilight cleric 1/gloom stalker ranger 3/ chronology wizard 2/swashbuckler rogue 11. He's been in and out of one shots, but he's always a blast. The 11 levels of rogue and vast amount of cantrips make him surprisingly lethal, and my DM house ruled that if I win initiative by 15 or more I get a free round where my opponents are surprised, and if I get a nat 20 (for a total of 53), I get to go twice. It doesn't happen super often but it's always fun to do it. Thanks for making the video as now I know which magic items to take!
Important to note that initiative boni have diminishing returns. Let's run an example where you get a +5 bonus in 4 scenarios depending on how much higher your Initiative bonus is than the enemy's: 0 greater => 5 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by over 20% 5 greater => 10 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by roughly 16% or barely more than 10% if you have advantage 10 greater => 15 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by 10%, or less than half that if you have advantage 15 greater => 20 greater: at this point, you're getting a measly 4% chance that the buff will do anything, reduced to less than 1% with advantage So really the most important initiative buffs are the early ones. You don't need to create any whack builds, simply improve your DEX a bit, pick up the Alert feat, Gift of Alacrity or the Harengon race and if you really want to go further, I'd recommend a (sub-) class that just gets a general bonus you can add to any ability check.
Possibly you could list rogue 11 with reliable talent as an option if you have one of the proficiency to initiative sources, most likely harengon but also oath of watchers! (:
Hey Treantmonk, I was wondering if you could do a video on different methods of stat generation. Different Standard arrays, point buy, different rolling methods. My personal favourite way to roll stats is to roll 22d6, drop the lowest four, and then make six groups of three to make stats. I think it's an interesting topic, certainly worth discussing.
My favorite is to roll 4d6 drop lowest for each stat, in order. Then roll for the race and class. From there I try to optimize the hell out of the character and can pick subclass and subrace.
Obviously the best way is to roll 36d20, then arrange in a 6x6 array. Each row or column represents an array of stats in order. Players can choose from any of the 12 available arrays.
Do you know why it is a Harengon Oath of Watchers paladin would not add their proficiency twice to initiative? Jack of All Trades is the only one that has a clause about not adding it to a check that already uses proficiency; the aura simply says you get a bonus equal to your proficiency. Am I missing something? Great content as always!
With the stacking proficiency, it seems as though the rules are suggesting that when it's from the same source, you can't stack those items (temp hit points as a great example). If you get a bonus to the same area from different sources, then it's fine to do so.
Would it be a good idea to allow players to use their Strength modifier instead of their Dexterity modifier for initiative checks? Just so that the Paladin/Barbarian/Fighter doesn't ALWAYS go last (after the Wizard and other spellcasters effectivdly ended the encounter on turn 1)?
Methinks much of the problem comes from eliminating DEX bonus on Heavy Armor. What is supposed to be so OP about investing in a third physical stat to accomplish what numerous spells and effects already can? Nor does it make any thematic sense that an 10 DEX fighter would be just as good at avoiding a blow in plate mail as an 18 DEX fighter. I've also began testing the concept of finesse weapon not merely being an autopilot choice between the higher of STR and DEX, but rather STR and DEX melee attacks having different consequences against different creatures. Something with high natural armor but soft spots ought to benefit DEX melee, while something more uniform and tough ought to benefit STR attacks.
I am not sure you are right about adding stats to the initiative (talking about your comment relating to artificer and chronothurge): both these classes have a feature that says you add you intelligence mod to the roll. This is UNLIKE the paladin bonus that says that you add a BONUS equal to your Charisma mod to the roll. Your intelligence modifier is your intelligence modifier - no matter how many abilities tell you to add IT to the roll. But a bonus is a bonus with a value = X (X=Charisma modifier). That at least is my interpretation.
I played a valor bard in a tournament oneshot, i had the sentinel shield for advantage on my initiative roll, jack of all trade for that tiny bump and finally i had gift of alacrity (spellwroth tattoo). I went first in the first combat of the session, I went first in the second combat of the session. Then in the final combat i went 8th, third to last. I was faster than my familiar (spellwroth tattoo) and faster than my partys barbarian. Somtimes the dice just dont want to any more. I died before i could do anything to impact the battle.
@@smbakeresq not really, stood in the back as a good caster, got hit by a hypnotic pattern and failed the save. My familiar shook another ally awake Instead of me since he would be next in initiative, then my ally shook me awake. Was then promptly bullrushed by a raging barbarian making 4 attacks per turn, all with advantage. My hand was forced, and i had to play defensively. We didn't really focus fire so I think that's the main reason we did somewhat poorly. We did manage to squeeze out a victory in the end
9:19 I'm curious if Bardic Inspiration can be applied after knowing your placement in the initiative order. To me, it's close to the stipulation that a player can "wait until after it rolls the d20, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails". You can't explicitly succeed/fail on initiative, but would this be RAI? RAW, I guess I don't see an issue, but still seems weird.
I would say no. Success in an initiative roll can be defined as "going first", so if you're not first over all, it can be seen as a failure. To me this means as soon as you know if you are first over all or not, then it's too late to apply Bardic Inspiration. If a player was thinking of applying it, I would ask them to roll the d20, and then choose to add Bardic or not, before anyone else announced their rolls. This would slow things down a bit, but I don't see it happening a lot either. This is of course, just my interpretation. I could be wrong, and you can feel free to ignore it.
@@bskec2177 I tend to agree with that interpretation. Effectively the other combatants are setting the "initiative DC", so you'd have to decide to use the inspiration before knowing anyone else's initiative.
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. From the phb
it is specifically called an ability check. from the SRD "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Okay thanks. I took 6 levels of artificer just so that I can get extra attack and tool expertise now I'm going 14 levels of wizard and I made my own spell book out of mithril sheets
One of the campaigns I paly atm is descent into avernus. I play the Human wizard and took Alert as my Variant Human feat. Best descision I made that campain.
That campaign is absolutely impossible. When you're 10th level, you fight five dragons that can deal a combined 400 AoE damage on the first round of combat. I think the designers at WOTC are sadists.
wait. Can you actually change the initiative order after it has been rolled with like a bonus action or a reaction ? Can you take a reaction when you haven't had your turn yet ?
Correct, you can not. You don't gain a reaction till your first turn in combat. You gain your reaction, at that time, whether you were surprised or not. You can not use reactions to effect initiative.
You can take a reaction before your first turn provided that your not surprised. “If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends.” -they wouldn’t specify that reaction limitation for Surprise rounds if it was always the case. Additionally the reaction to the rolling of initiative takes place before combat has actually begun.
Too bad Rogue's Reliable Talent doesn't work with another party member's Aura of the Sentinel, as it says "your proficiency bonus". Should work with multiclassing ofc.
I don't think sage advice is very reliable. If they say "x was our intent" that's one thing but often it seems like personal dm interpretation/home ruling. In the latter case I'm not incline to take their word as RAI if they are reading things into a rule that the rule clearly does not state. It becomes further muddled when you have these cases of completely 180 takes in sage advice. Just because someone's a designer of d&d doesn't make their word law, published rules should supersede Twitter responses. (Yes I know that wotc does publish sage advice on their website but not all so-called sage advice makes it in there)
I believe the champion fighters Remarkable Athlete feature grants half of proficiency to initiative as well, similar to Jack of All Trades
Yes, you're correct.
I think the concept of diminishing returns is really significant here. There are narrative reasons that a DM might put certain encounters ahead of you in initiative order. Beyond those, if you can score above 20 consistently, you're pretty solid.
I played a War Wiz with the Alert feat for a bit, and that was sufficient to be first almost every encounter, even though I'm legendary for rolling poorly. This was a low level game, and I think both my DEX and INT were 16, making my INIT bonus 11. The fact that I can consistently roll below 10 on a d20 means that I was mostly turning in Initiative scores of 16-19 in that game, and that's STILL usually sufficient to go before the monsters.
BUT...
My biggest issue with Initiative is the other players. It is essentially impossible to get the other players to hold back their stupid for even a single round. INVARIABLY, there will be another player who rolls very high and goes before me, and this player will ALWAYS do whatever action is the absolute worst thing possible. It's as reliable as gravity and sunrise.
The fighter running in when you ALWAYS cast web the first round of every encounter, or worse, the barbarian running in the web AFTER you've cast it.
@@phelps6205 exactly!!
Or another one is an Assassin Rogue who insists on ranged ahead of the group, trying to get his Surprise attack. But then, when he triggers initiative, nobody else is in a position to do anything useful. Then, even if I win initiative, there best options are already ruined.
This is very recognizable. In one of my campaigns there is someone that always works against me it looks like. One time I had a big group of enemies incapacitated in a Hypnotic Pattern and she decided to cast Tidel Wave over them.
One of the nicest DM's and people i ever met eventually had to give up playing with each other b/c the barbarian-like fellow wouldn't stop charging in before the wizard wanted to drop a fireball. I'm sure the wizard asked him nicely lots of times, please wait one round. I havent seen that reckless barbarian since. o.o
@@phelps6205 if fighter can't learn, fighter get webbed
So my Artificer has a Weapon of warning and access to gift of alacrity through Fey Touched. So that’s advantage with an additional D8… and I can always Flash of Genius. Plus immunity to surprise. Hopefully this will help me keep my party from dying.
But how is your perception? Winning initiative but being "surprised" can be as bad as losing initiative.
@@Treblaine literally immune to surprise through Weapon of Warning, uncommon DMG magic item
@@The_Gnome_Chomskee If you don't have a special item from you're antidotal DM, no one can stop you as Artificer from getting Helm of Awareness. While wearing this helmet, a creature has advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, the wearer can’t be surprised, provided it isn’t incapacitated.
Actually the watcher Paladin aura do stack. It does not "let you add PB to initiative", it gives a bonus that is numerically equal to (the Paladin's) PB
If you're talking about stacking with itself/the same aura from another paladin, it doesn't. (not sure what part of the video you're referring to)
This is covered under the general rules for effects with the same name.
If you're talking about it stacking with Harengon, it definitely doesn't.
Adding your proficiency bonus, and getting a bonus equal to your proficiency bonus are the same thing, and are covered by this explicit clause within the rules:
"If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once."
It explicitly calls out strange circumstances that even suggest you might count your PB more than once, even beyond the already explicit wording that you can only add it once. Any circumstance that might suggest getting your PB more than once, you don't. Note that this clause doesn't make the distinction you've made between adding and getting a bonus, it simply says, "applies more than once for the same roll".
They could not have made it more clear that it never gets added to the same roll more than once.
You may be right.
I also believe that the Divination Wizard can use one of their Portent Die to just set an Initiative of yourself or any creature you can see.
You didn’t include the guardian minor property from the DMG. It’s a +2 to initiative. Although, very few DMs customize things like +1 swords with the minor properties table, so I can see how it was missed. Great, informative video as always.
I thank you for reminding me of the minor property table. My players have some loot coming soon and I wanna whip up something custom for them.
@@TiasVsEverything I just got reminded of it when I was doing a reread. All those special property tables in the DMG are great.
My players are gonna be getting a lot more cool magic items now.
Got that on a hammer for my 8 dex tempest Cleric. Paired with a sentinel shield, keeps me somewhat in the middle of initiative order, at least. Definitely don't plan on dumping Dex on a future character, though. Haha
In my favorite setting of D&D, Planescape, I was a member of the Transcendent Order faction. They had interesting pros and cons:
Pro: +2 to Initiative (relatively unheard of in 2nd ed. a huge bonus)
Con: Whatever you first declare for your action, you are committed to. No takebacks.
After several years of playing this way, it really honed my tactical decision making over many campaigns.
I like your initiative scores on the one shot, haha. Brutal and a need for summoners
I’ve used a Circle of Stars Druid’s Cosmic Omen to alter another character’s initiative roll. Cost me a reaction and one of my uses but the fight was between a PC (my PC’s best friend at that) and what I’m pretty sure now was a Rakshasa.
It didn’t work for that specific story because my friend rolled like dogshit, but I felt super fucking clever trying it :P
Older edition I had a +21 initiative. Was fun firing a barrage of arrows on turn on then the rogue jumping to slice'n dice.
I think it is relevant to the theme to mention that: you cannot use reactions when you are surprised (as some of these methods rely on reactions).
Not relavant if Alert is taken ;)
@@godminnette2
Or if the Weapon of Warning is obtained... Somehow.
As I mentioned elsewhere, you don't gain a reaction until your first turn in combat. By definition, you don't have a reaction until your first turn in combat. Thus you can't use reactions like cutting words to affect the initiative, whether you are suprised or not. Alert and Weapon of Warning affect whether you waste your turn or not (surprise) but they don't allow you to get reactions before your first turn in combat.
@@gigglestomp5403 Could you point to that reference? To my knowledge, it is only when you are surprised that you have no reaction until you are not surprised anymore (when you have had your first turn in combat).
@@Magnushamann
@Absol StoryofFiction
COMBAT STEP-BY-STEP
1. Determine surprise. The DM determines whether anyone involved in the combat encounter is surprised.
2. Establish positions. The DM decides where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers' marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are--how far away and in what direction.
3. Roll initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls initiative, determining the order of combatants' turns.
4. Take turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order.
>>A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's.
I believe a level 10 Rogue Harengon Rogue always has at least a 10 on their initiative die roll
Overkill but: Multiclass Gloom stalker, war mage, alert feat Haregon with the lucky feat.
No no, see... You MC Gloom Stalker with 11 levels of Swashbuckler on a Harengon, alert feat. Lucky not required. Assuming base numbers of +3 dex, wis, and cha by that point, and a 4 prof bonus, you have a +18 to initiative and can't roll below a 10 on the die, so your minimum Initiative is 28.
@@CanisMythson I did that. At level 8 he has +19.
Peregrine mask from Ravnica also grants advantage on initiative (and a zippy fly speed to boot) for an attunement slot.
Per your comment that it doesn't matter how much you win initiative by as long as you win - in at least one version of Shadowrun characters would get additional turns per round of combat by acting again on their initiative -10 as long as that was a positive number (i.e., going on 28, then again on 18, then again on 8).
You're absolutely correct that in 5e winning initiative by more does nothing except ensure that by having a high bonus we're usually going first every combat. However, in your video about rules borrowed from other games, this was always something that intrigued me as a way to balance dextrous characters not using Sharpshooter, like Monks and some Rogues.
I found in Shadowrun (there were other systems that did similar things. I'm trying to think of the names but I'm blanking right now), making initiative that important ended up overwhelmingly the focus in character creation which was unfortunate.
I do agree that the multiple turns per round from shadowrun can become a massive focus for character builds (once played a gunbunny build that on average pooled about 30 Ini.) But in the same vein as snagging a rule. How about snagging the rule about re-rolling of Initiative after each round? That way it's a bit more hectic and chaotic, feeling the heat and randomness of battle. Maybe even giving bonuses or penalties to those new initiative rolls depending on outcomes previous rounds? Like a character/monster is now bloodied, and at or below half health, that character/monster might have a penalty on the roll because of their mounting wounds.
11:22 Aura of protection is specifically worded in a way that let's you add it on top of a normal Charisma saving throw. Note that the feature states "the creature gains a bonus to the saving throw equal to your Charisma modifier", meaning that it is a generic, stackable bonus that happens to have the same value as your charisma modifier. Same thing with the Alchemist Artificer's lvl 5 feature: "you gain a bonus to one roll of the spell. [...] the bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)."
The Flash of Genius feature, same as a few others, word it as you directly adding a modifier to a roll, not adding a bonus that is equal to a modifier. "you can use your reaction to add your Intelligence modifier to the roll". Same thing with the features that add your proficiency bonus.
Edit: Oath of the Watchers also words it like the first two features I mentioned, so I think it should also stack with other features like Hare-trigger
I'm pretty sure that the Gunslinger subclass for fighters also gets to add their proficiency bonus to initiative rolls. That's at level 7, similar to the Watchers paladin.
EDIT: There are also other benefits to playing a gunslinger for this concept. Fighters get extra ASIs, allowing more freedom to bump your stats or take Alert, and Gunslingers tend to have high Dexterity and Wisdom (for their guns and for Grit Points), so a Gloomstalker and/or Twilight Cleric dip isn’t a bad idea either.
I recently played a Twilight Cleric and the party found a Sentinel Shield as loot. Since I was the only party member using a shield (and the party tank) I took the shield which meant I could assign my Vigilant Blessing to another party member. The bonus here was that as a primary caster I always had advantage on initiative, and I could assign advantage to one other party member based on the situational need. Big mob of mooks? Here's advantage on initiative Wizard, hit 'em with a fireball. Solo caster in the rear? Here's advantage on initiative Monk, go lock him down. :D
More items to add: the Dragon-Touched Focus, at all levels of wakefulness and from all types of hoards, provides advantage to initiative checks.
technically the oath of watchers ability gives a bonus equal to your proficiency modifer not proficiency in initative, so haregon or jack of all trades stacks with aura of the sentinel, but haregon and jack of all trades don't stack with each other
You may be right. I didn't consider the wording on how proficiency is added.
Eh… that’s an awful lot of weight to put in the difference between “gain a bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus” (aura) and “add your proficiency bonus to your initiative rolls”. Especially since one of the other Harengon abilities is “you are proficient in perception.”
Even if it were ultimately ruled that the bonuses from harengon and aura of the sentinel don't stack, you could get around it by having the paladin as a separate team member. Then you wouldn't be adding your proficiency bonus twice, but rather adding your proficiency bonus and their proficiency bonus once each.
also if you have access to the hex spell, you can choose dex and they have disadvantage
good shout
I am unsure if RAW works, but another way to boost initiative if needed is Hobgoblin Saving Face: once per short rest when you miss with an attack roll or fail an ability check or a saving throw, you can gain a bonus to the roll equal to the number of allies you can see within 30 feet of you. If you read the context of the feature, being low on Initiative could be counted as a failure for your pg and let you apply the bonus.
I recently realized how good and undervalued this feature is, especially since it doesn't use your reaction. You can stack it with other class features such as Divine Soul Sorcerer "Favored by the Gods", War Wizard "Arcane Deflection" or Artificer "Flash of Genius" and achieve a bonus of +9/+10 on attacks, checks and most important of all saving throws.
One of my backup hip-pocket characters is a Harengon Gloom Stalker/Battlemaster with the Ambush Maneuver who will pick up Alert some time after taking Sharpshooter.
Gloom Stalker/Battlemasters are nasty!
Just gotta tack some assassin dip to make it extra brutal.
Then you can take expertise on initiative from being a bunnyboy.
@@bearinabag2448
I don't believe you can take expertise in initiative, as initiative is a skill check, not a skill, and you may only gain expertise in skills or tools.
I have a character build for this that has been sitting in my concept characters for a while. Every table I've thought of using it, though, it has been banned from.
The Build:
Race: Harengon
Background: Any, but one of the Strixhaven Initiates would be preferable
Classes:
Swashbuckler 4 for Rakish Audacity and a Feat
Gloom Stalker 4 for Dread Ambusher and a Feat
Chronurgist 2 for Temporal Awareness
Armorer 10 for Armor Model, Flash of Genius, Armor Modifications, Magic Item Adept, and 2 Feats.
The Feats:
1: Alert - +5 to Initiative and can't be surprised
2: Lucky - Reroll any d20 roll 3 times/day
3: War Caster - Adv. on CON saves to maintain concentration on spells when you take damage and casting while your hands are full.
4: Resilient CON - +1 to CON score and Proficiency in CON saves.
Magic Items:
Scorpion Armor! - Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing saying that your chosen armor for Armor Model HAS to be mundane! This cursed armor provides a +5 to initiative but deals significant poison damage when you don/doff it. Easily avoidable if you have the knowledge, otherwise you only get 1/4 HP back on long rests and have to find other means to reduce exhaustion.
Stone of Good Luck - +1 to all ability checks and saving throws! Initiative IS an ability check folks!
Ioun Stone of Mastery - This Incredibly rare stone increases your proficiency bonus by +1! WOW! If you're a power gamer/optimizer then you should know how big of a deal that is!
Sentinel Shield - Non-attunement shield that grants advantage on initiative rolls and perception checks (Oh hey, we got prof in those from Harengon!). This is a staple of the build. Pretty easy to acquire.
Sword of Kas - As explained in the video, a sentient sword that seeks the destruction of Vecna, grants you +1d10 to all initiative rolls as long as it's on your person. You NEVER have to use it! (Your DM may or may not have this cause adverse effects)
Stats:
You can do point buy with this, but you're going to be average at best. For best results, I recommend rolling for stats and hoping you get lucky.
Take a +2 to DEX and +1 to either INT/WIS/CHA.
Point Buy Spread:
Str: 8
Dex: 14 (for a 16 total)
Con: 9 (for 10 total with Resilient feat)
Int/Wis/Cha: Set the one you picked a racial bonus to to 13 and the other two to 14.
This is purely for maximum bonus to initiative, I'm sure there are MUCH better spreads that will make a better overall character.
This setup will always net you an initiative of at least 40 if you forget to roll your extras and apply your spells and reaction.
Should you remember everything it would look something like this:
1d20(with advantage)+39+1d10(Sword of Kas)+1d8(Gift of Alacrity) for an average initiative roll of 63. (Min: 42, Max: 77)
If your DM lets you obtain Skill books you can add an additional +4 to your initiative by increasing your DEX+INT+WIS+CHA by +2 each bringing your Min/Avg/Max to 46/67/81.
(If you waste all 3 lucky rolls on a single initiative roll, the average becomes 69. You're welcome.)
Side Note: Resilient CON is NOT a MUST have so it can be replaced with any other feat. I just chose it to make Concentration saves trivial.
This build took a lot of work and math, hope you all enjoy playing the Lucky Rabbit! :)
My arcane trickster had a +3 long bow with bracers of archery and a weapon of warning. With my plus 5 to dex I almost always won initiative. So I would usually use my first turn to steady aim and hammer on the most high value target available.
Pathfinder 1e had an explicit rule about adding your Intelligence (or other ability) Modifier multiple times to one check, citing it as a named bonus, allowing it to fall under a more general 'You cannot stack bonuses of the same type unless otherwise specified' rule that 5e does not have.
I feel like 5E was only about halfway done defining things for ease-of-reference and rules-straightforwardness in abilities and such, and 6E will do well to finish the task. Like with weapons that aren't weapons but do weapon attacks or whatever. Scrap all that, just say all things attacked-with are weapons. Done, solved. No more language mud. Stuff like that. Clean up all the unintuitive stuff, basically.
Two things I believe worthy of mention:
1. The target initiative to beat is a pretty nifty thing to keep in mind. I am no initiative-mancer but I believe +8 to +9 are the high-end for monsters, so you just need to be able to beat that somewhat reliably. A lvl 2 VH War Wizard that took Alert as his first feat for some reason is going to be pretty much set for life with his mighty +11 without sacrificing overly much.
2. Beware Legendary Actions, which tend to mitigate some of the impact of high initiative. That being said, having the monster blow one of his legendary actions to move around and prevent your best case scenario is still a win.
What a great video. I have currently come into realization how I accidentally came into a very high inish character. I started as a variet human (feat: Fey Touched) and as a Twilight Cleric. After two levels and a Amulet of the Devout I multi classed into Star druid and have made it 4 levels in and took the feat (Alert). The synergy these classes have makes for exceptional variety and powerful combinations. I don't feel I have given up anything and Cosmic Omen is just about within reach along with upcast third level druid spells. Absolutly amazing.
Advantage on roll from Vigilant Blessing, dex mod, d8 "Gift of Alacrity" from Fey Touched Feat and +5 from Alert. And with Cosmic Omen often going to add another d6. Or take away from enemy depending on Weal or Woe.
this video really shows how the text could have been improved (or so i think). Instead of When you or ... rolls a etc. "Before you or an ally rolls a check you can... " or "After you or ally rolls".
In the Wildemount campaign I play in, we use talent trees, and we get talent points at proficiency increases in addition to converting ASIs to talent points (each feat is broken in half, except half feats), so all our characters are a little stronger and a little feat-heavy. My Chronurgist has the trait from the Alert feat that lets him add 5 to his initiative, and one from another tree that allows him to replace his dexterity in the initiative roll with intelligence. He has a +15 to initiative. It was so funny to roll his initiative for the first time in his first session (which was at level 9 or 10) and see people's reactions to that +15. That combat effectively ended immediately after his turn as he cast wall of force on the only enemy attacking us.
I've spent a long time deliberating over this for my most recent character. I had many things I wanted to try out that I'd never done before: high initiative, as much multiclassing as possible while still being (somewhat) coherant, an archer (with elven accuracy and sharpshooter), ranged smites, along with a bit of magic.
Ended up with initiative +12 that I figured was sufficient: Hexblade 5 with Eldritch Smite (dex to 22 instead of charisma, just for something different), Whispers Bard 5 (smite with Psychic blades on crit, that refreshes on SR), Battlemaster 4 (action surge and can add a maneuver on a crit), Gloomstalker 3 (usual combo, dread ambusher + action surge, that I never actually used to spare my DM), Assassin 3 (for Assassinate, a reason to want high initiative, plus to get the most out of elven accuracy). Was tempted to add in a level of Twilight Cleric, or drop a class to take Alert, but was a satisfying build.
Typically has a great first round, but then drops off (especially if disadvantage is imposed somehow).
Obviously if I'd pushed for just high initiative I could've gotten higher numbers, with at least considering the two options of roughly +12 (with advantage), or +15, but sacrificed both for a bit more magic (adding in and taking the Bard to level 5).
Just, oh I dont know, play a Harengon Shepherd Druid with the Alert feat?
You could dip into bard for 2 levels to add JOAT.
I also watched that stream. It was glorious.
@@reedsmith8975 does that work? Since you already add your proficiency bonus by being a harengon. Or is this some rule interpretation stuff where "add your proficiency bonus" might not be the same as being proficient.
Lol, yes indeed!
@@caelandemaziere7939 also wondering this
One spell I like is “Jim’s glowing coin” gives enemy’s disadvantage one initiative rolls and perception checks if they fail a save, has to be used before combats tho, great spell in the right situation.
In a similar vein to Jack of All Trades, Champion Fighters also get half their proficiency bonus added to Dexterity checks (and thus to their initiative rolls), starting at 7th level, due to Remarkable Athlete.
If you know you are going to get in a fight, Bardic Inspiration and Guidance apply to the initiative roll as well.
My Lore bard rolled in the 30s with a bad roll (he also had Gift of Alacrity).
I use a GS Ranger with Alert and the +11 really helps. And while his first round strikes aren't usually able to take out the biggest threat, they have been able to thin out herds thus preventing getting surrounded. The rest of the party is pretty fast as well and can usually implement some battlefield control.
Best possible initiative with point buy: Harengon Swashbuckler 12 Gloomstalker 8 (Could take 4 of the Gloomstalker levels and switch them for 4 Twilight levels and get advantage but Twilight is OP).
6ASIs so take Alert, 20 DEX, 20 WIS, 18 CHA, 8 everything else. +25 to initiative, with reliable talent lowest possible roll of 35. This is pretty stupid since if a monster with a DEX of 30 rolled a Nat 20 for initiative, you would still be 5 above them.
Better version of this would be a pure Swashbuckler Harengon with Alert, and 20 DEX and CHA and rest of your stats however you want (CON isn't a dump stat now) and you still have a + 21 to initiative and a lowest possible roll of 31, which still beats the highest possible Initiative for a Monster.
Surprise can be as good as winning initiative, better even as they don't get reactions if you also win initiative. Also, naturally, the enemy won't have seen you so your first attack will be with advantage. Thought even if you are surprised it's important to beat as many enemies initiative as possible as you don't get to use your reaction until you've finished your "surprise turn".
Helm of Awareness is a big one my Artificer has for an infusion, While wearing this helmet, a creature has advantage on initiative rolls. In addition, the wearer can’t be surprised, provided it isn’t incapacitated.
A variant human Chronurgist Wizard who chooses Fey Touched - Gift of Alacrity and one level dip into Twilight Cleric will almost always go first even on higher levels. This is pretty huge for a Wizard. And these (sub)classes and feats are already among the best. You will have 19 AC base with medium armor and a shield, darkvision which you normally don't have as a human and will outscale a majority of the classes because you are a Wizard. The only problem I see is that a DM won't allow all this together.
I'm taking a guess that one of the builds will be a Harengon Swashbuckler. It keeps your base initiative so high without sacrificing anything. I'm going to add Fey Touched for Gift of Alacrity on this as well as Alert. Assuming a 20 Dex and a 16 Charisma, your minimum initiative at level 13 is a 29, and that is with a roll of 1 on your Gift of Alacrity. Your average would be 35. Reliable talent synergizes so well with the Harengon, it is hard to ignore.
Additionally, level 10 Artificers are able to infuse a 'Helm of Awareness' which provides advantage on initiative rolls.
you can't use bend luck to change initiative order, you can't use a reaction before you had your own turn when initiative is already determined. At best you can use bardic inspiration by giving it in advance as a prebuff
You can use your reaction whenever it’s triggered -provided you’re not surprised.
If the DM already allows the Help action from Familiars anyway, I think it would work, if you express your intent as instructing your Familiar to maintain constant vigiliance of your surroundings, warning you when something dangerous happens - I am imagining an old-west style gunfight, and your familiar taps you on the neck or the ear when it spots someone about to draw on you out of a crowd of people.
I wouldn't even try it at most tables.
I am playing a Lvl 8 shepherd druid atm and have a 16 dex. I also took the Alert Feat and have a sentinel shield. So, at the moment, I have a +8 to initiative, rolled at Advantage. Pretty nice to be able to set up battlefield controls at the outset of combat. Depending on the situation, I would either cast conjure animals or plant growth. Since we homebrew that the conjured beasts go after the summoner, I can usually conjure 8 or 16 buff giant owls, then call the bear spirit totem, then have them attack.
This is very relevant given I'm currently playing an ambusher Gloomstalker/Assassin Rogue character who intends to pick up Alert at level 9. I should see about getting my hands on a bow of Warning.
also with reliable talent, I'm pretty sure because of the wording it would only work for a harengon, not for a watchers paladin
It is worth noting that you should consider what you will do with your high initiative. I've seen players build their characters to max initiative to the detriment of everything else and they roll 32 initiative and have no effective actions to take.
There can be an advantage to some builds going later in the order, and "batting clean-up", picking already injured targets to take down, like with auto-damage from a magic missile. That's advantageous to the party, maybe not the individual.
To clarify, wouldn't reaction-based increases to initiative (Cutting Words) be unusable? You don't gain your reaction until your first turn. This is also why you cant use opportunity attacks until your turn on the first round of combat.
During Initiative... The DM can let everyone activate their Initiative Effects since that's the only time it will work until the battle begins. Outside of the Surprise Turn... I don't know this in the rules for Initiative.
But once battle begins after initiative... Reactions are all set, if you haven't used one earlier.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 this is incorrect. Cutting words is not an initiative effect. It's a reaction that broadly effects attacks, damage, and ability checks. You also don't receive your first reaction until your first turn begins. It is not gained at the top of the round. This is why surprise is vital, you can move around without provoking or completely shut down enemies on turn one if you go first or if they are suprised.
There is also no surprise turn, it is a condition that prevents an individual from acting their first turn (wasting it) but they still gain a reaction once their turn ends.
@@gigglestomp5403
Under normal conditions... True.
The Alert Feat and the Weapon of Warning can negate the Surprise condition and its Advantage to Hit Roll. So, using this Feat or Magical Weapon can apply the initiative effects through one Reaction, if applicable.
But even then, the rules for out of combat is not the same as the rules for in combat. Provided that the Spell duration is longer than or equal to 1 minute. Otherwise, you'll waste a 6 second Spell. You can cast any Spell outside of combat before initiative is rolled, just like Sneaking/Stealth.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 You still unfortunately don't gain a reaction until your first turn in the initiative order. By then, by definition, you've already rolled initiative and combat has begun. Whether you are suprised or not, you gain your reaction on your first turn at your place on the initial tracker.
@@gigglestomp5403
I see... -Unfortunately true...-
Scratch that... You still gain a Reaction in RAW if you can avoid the Surprise condition. In 5e, there is no rule which details that Reactions are not an option if you're not Surprised. Unless you mean the past Editions.
Divination Wizards can use their high Portent rolls to swap out their poor Initiatives. Similar to the Lucky feat, it is a huge resource cost but it is available if the encounter can be dramatically effected by going first.
Pretty large cost to merely make you go first, but a very efficient use of a low Portent die to make a single big enemy go last.
I swapped out guidance for druidcraft because I realized I could never have guidance ready for someone to use it and was always asking if guidance could apply to checks
Too much trouble than it was worth
I would like to add Jim's Glowing Coin, seriously underrated, it's from Acquisitions Incorporated so I figured cause Gift of Alacrity was discussed this might also be viable at some tables. Also Peace Cleric's Emboldening Bond cause that's just the broken feature that keeps breaking.
Harengon + Gloomstalker + Twilight Cleric + Alert is my favorite combo. 🐇
The Strixhaven Background & feat might allow you to access Gift of Alacrity, if you are allowing it.
Missed Artificer level 10 Infusion Helm of Awareness. Grants advantage on Initiative and can't be surprised.
Also Champion Fighter Remarkable Athlete (lvl 7) adds half Pof bonus to Initiative same as Bard.
While I get the sentiment, using your encounter if players optimize around initiative and wipe encounters I would just run more encounters. It’s a better game with challenges.
Quick question: how do you know you are loosing initiative until it is too late to add bardic inspiration or other things?
I second this. I'm not understanding this process
In the games I play, where your roll places you in the initiative order is public knowledge, I assumed this was the standard, but perhaps I'm mistaken.
@@TreantmonksTemple
Mine as well, but I'm confused as to how you (or someone else) use a bonus action before your turn to boost your initiative roll. Unless you'd done so prior to knowing you need to roll for initiative. I guess the way it was described was a bit confusing for me
I think the idea is that the bard used bardic inspiration at some point before the initiative roll to give someone an inspiration die. When initiative is rolled, that player can expend the inspiration die (no action) to add it to their initiative result. Hope that clears it up!
@@trevorkortman4159
Agreed, that was what I was trying to get at. I guess I must have misunderstood or not heard treantmonk correctly in his description because it seemed less than clear to me. I'll go back and listen to that section again. Thanks
Love that sentinel shield. Fantastic item. Shame magic items are so unreliable in 5e.
I don't have my players roll initiative the using the classic method anymore. It's rolled each round, the dice size changes depending on what the individual is doing, lowest numbers go first, and matching numbers result in a bind. Only one character has an ability that adjusts initiative, being the alert feat, where I made the modification a -2, effectively reducing the dice size by two, most of the time. after some use, and comparison, the feat feels right, and the method has been more engaging.
Considering Crawford has confirmed that reliable talent does actually work with Jack of all Trades, it wouldn't be far fetched to say it works with other sources of proficiency bonus in intitiative
Would you allow a Character to Sacrifice their own Init to give a Help Action to another Character? Basically, sacrificing their Init to Help another?
I would, but only under specific circumstances that would make it very rare. For example, the Party would have to be the ones Initiating the Combat.
Don’t forget the Scout’s Ambush Master!
This is rad. Can you do a similar video on making saving throws?
I’d allow the help action for initiative at the cost of a character rolling for initiative themselves until the second round of combat.
So a harengon swashbuckler rogue 3, gloomstalker ranger 3, war wizard 2, twilight cleric 1 could add: dex, int, wis, cha, and proficiency with advantage... Assuming all are 5 (unlikely) thats a 26~45 initiative
i played a character with a +12 bonus to initiative for several months and i think i went first maybe once? it ended up being a running joke throughout the campaign. every time another player or god forbid an enemy out-rolled me i'd over-act my frustration and we'd all have a laugh
I'm curious if you ever tried Combat as War in your games? Instead of engaging in balanced encounters, you stack your deck and try to avoid combat to resolve the encounter? Like caving in the dungeon, setting the room on fire, and causing enemies to suffocate and be blinded by smoke?
For sure. In the last session I played, there was a room full of monsters with no other exits so we just used arcane lock on the door.
@@TreantmonksTemple Lovely. I can see why being Spellcaster is fun. Allows for lots of out of the box solutions to problems with utility spells.
I think I commented this on another video, but I made a PC named Rifog, a harengon charlatan twilight cleric 1/gloom stalker ranger 3/ chronology wizard 2/swashbuckler rogue 11. He's been in and out of one shots, but he's always a blast. The 11 levels of rogue and vast amount of cantrips make him surprisingly lethal, and my DM house ruled that if I win initiative by 15 or more I get a free round where my opponents are surprised, and if I get a nat 20 (for a total of 53), I get to go twice. It doesn't happen super often but it's always fun to do it.
Thanks for making the video as now I know which magic items to take!
Oath of Watchers+Harengon does indeed stack
I've been wanting to make an Armorer Artificer with that Scorpion armor ever since I discovered it. lol
a hare chronurgy wizard with 14 dex with alret feat realistically can add +15 to initiative rolls not counting gift of alacrity or lucky
Important to note that initiative boni have diminishing returns.
Let's run an example where you get a +5 bonus in 4 scenarios depending on how much higher your Initiative bonus is than the enemy's:
0 greater => 5 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by over 20%
5 greater => 10 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by roughly 16% or barely more than 10% if you have advantage
10 greater => 15 greater: increases your chance of winning initiative by 10%, or less than half that if you have advantage
15 greater => 20 greater: at this point, you're getting a measly 4% chance that the buff will do anything, reduced to less than 1% with advantage
So really the most important initiative buffs are the early ones. You don't need to create any whack builds, simply improve your DEX a bit, pick up the Alert feat, Gift of Alacrity or the Harengon race and if you really want to go further, I'd recommend a (sub-) class that just gets a general bonus you can add to any ability check.
Yep, winning initiative by 1 is just as good as winning by 10
Possibly you could list rogue 11 with reliable talent as an option if you have one of the proficiency to initiative sources, most likely harengon but also oath of watchers! (:
So many comments like this one I apologize for adding to the spam my bad hahahah
there was so much I didn't know in this vid, thanks a bunch
Hey Treantmonk, I was wondering if you could do a video on different methods of stat generation. Different Standard arrays, point buy, different rolling methods. My personal favourite way to roll stats is to roll 22d6, drop the lowest four, and then make six groups of three to make stats. I think it's an interesting topic, certainly worth discussing.
My favorite is to roll 4d6 drop lowest for each stat, in order. Then roll for the race and class. From there I try to optimize the hell out of the character and can pick subclass and subrace.
Obviously the best way is to roll 36d20, then arrange in a 6x6 array. Each row or column represents an array of stats in order. Players can choose from any of the 12 available arrays.
That's pretty cool. I usually hate rolling stats, but that seems interesting to try.
Chris: Did you mention the Ambush Battlemaster Maneuver?
Do you know why it is a Harengon Oath of Watchers paladin would not add their proficiency twice to initiative? Jack of All Trades is the only one that has a clause about not adding it to a check that already uses proficiency; the aura simply says you get a bonus equal to your proficiency. Am I missing something? Great content as always!
I could be mistaken. My assumption was you either add proficiency or you don't.
With the stacking proficiency, it seems as though the rules are suggesting that when it's from the same source, you can't stack those items (temp hit points as a great example). If you get a bonus to the same area from different sources, then it's fine to do so.
Would it be a good idea to allow players to use their Strength modifier instead of their Dexterity modifier for initiative checks? Just so that the Paladin/Barbarian/Fighter doesn't ALWAYS go last (after the Wizard and other spellcasters effectivdly ended the encounter on turn 1)?
Methinks much of the problem comes from eliminating DEX bonus on Heavy Armor. What is supposed to be so OP about investing in a third physical stat to accomplish what numerous spells and effects already can? Nor does it make any thematic sense that an 10 DEX fighter would be just as good at avoiding a blow in plate mail as an 18 DEX fighter.
I've also began testing the concept of finesse weapon not merely being an autopilot choice between the higher of STR and DEX, but rather STR and DEX melee attacks having different consequences against different creatures. Something with high natural armor but soft spots ought to benefit DEX melee, while something more uniform and tough ought to benefit STR attacks.
Kelly from the Dungeon Dudes is out here cringing when you mention "flash of genius". Poor dear that artificer has had a rough go. haha
He had a rough time in that first combat for sure. He's doing much better in the 2nd combat, I can't say the same!
@@TreantmonksTemple You carried super hard in the fist combat though
I am not sure you are right about adding stats to the initiative (talking about your comment relating to artificer and chronothurge): both these classes have a feature that says you add you intelligence mod to the roll. This is UNLIKE the paladin bonus that says that you add a BONUS equal to your Charisma mod to the roll. Your intelligence modifier is your intelligence modifier - no matter how many abilities tell you to add IT to the roll. But a bonus is a bonus with a value = X (X=Charisma modifier). That at least is my interpretation.
I don't know if it was just me, but did you forget the feat which gives +5 initiative?
just get poison immunity race and the scorpion armor is golden
for example: Yuan-ti Pureblood
A 7th level Champion fighter also adds half prof. to initiative
I played a valor bard in a tournament oneshot, i had the sentinel shield for advantage on my initiative roll, jack of all trade for that tiny bump and finally i had gift of alacrity (spellwroth tattoo).
I went first in the first combat of the session,
I went first in the second combat of the session.
Then in the final combat i went 8th, third to last. I was faster than my familiar (spellwroth tattoo) and faster than my partys barbarian. Somtimes the dice just dont want to any more. I died before i could do anything to impact the battle.
Maybe too aggressive with positioning?
@@smbakeresq not really, stood in the back as a good caster, got hit by a hypnotic pattern and failed the save. My familiar shook another ally awake Instead of me since he would be next in initiative, then my ally shook me awake.
Was then promptly bullrushed by a raging barbarian making 4 attacks per turn, all with advantage.
My hand was forced, and i had to play defensively. We didn't really focus fire so I think that's the main reason we did somewhat poorly. We did manage to squeeze out a victory in the end
9:19 I'm curious if Bardic Inspiration can be applied after knowing your placement in the initiative order. To me, it's close to the stipulation that a player can "wait until after it rolls the d20, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails". You can't explicitly succeed/fail on initiative, but would this be RAI? RAW, I guess I don't see an issue, but still seems weird.
I would say no. Success in an initiative roll can be defined as "going first", so if you're not first over all, it can be seen as a failure. To me this means as soon as you know if you are first over all or not, then it's too late to apply Bardic Inspiration. If a player was thinking of applying it, I would ask them to roll the d20, and then choose to add Bardic or not, before anyone else announced their rolls. This would slow things down a bit, but I don't see it happening a lot either.
This is of course, just my interpretation. I could be wrong, and you can feel free to ignore it.
@@bskec2177 I tend to agree with that interpretation. Effectively the other combatants are setting the "initiative DC", so you'd have to decide to use the inspiration before knowing anyone else's initiative.
What says an initiative roll is "an attack roll, saving throw or ability check"?
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order.
From the phb
it is specifically called an ability check. from the SRD "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order."
Pretty sure the new spell, silvery barbs will give you advantage on initiative rolls provided you give it to someone who isnt about to need a save
True. That's hard to make work though, because initiative is often not going to be your next roll when silvery barbs is used.
I'm not sure how you'll get the trigger for the spell though, how is it supposed to go?
@@Autonym Yeah, I don’t get it either. There is no “succeed” on an ability check with an Initiative roll to trigger Silvery Barbs. 🤷🏼♂️
So I am an artificer/war mage wizard and I have tactical wit. Does that mean I add my intelligence modifier to my dexterity modifier.
That's right.
Okay thanks. I took 6 levels of artificer just so that I can get extra attack and tool expertise now I'm going 14 levels of wizard and I made my own spell book out of mithril sheets
One of the campaigns I paly atm is descent into avernus.
I play the Human wizard and took Alert as my Variant Human feat.
Best descision I made that campain.
That campaign is absolutely impossible. When you're 10th level, you fight five dragons that can deal a combined 400 AoE damage on the first round of combat. I think the designers at WOTC are sadists.
@@PlanetOfTheApes999 then wish me luck that if we get so far, i win the intiative and can split them with a wall of force ;)
Whar app did you use for the map shown in the video?
wait. Can you actually change the initiative order after it has been rolled with like a bonus action or a reaction ? Can you take a reaction when you haven't had your turn yet ?
Correct, you can not. You don't gain a reaction till your first turn in combat. You gain your reaction, at that time, whether you were surprised or not. You can not use reactions to effect initiative.
@@gigglestomp5403 then you can't use things like bend luck or a bardic inspiration to improve the initiative of an ally
@@smile-tl9in You are correct, though if they already had inspiration they can use their die for the roll.
You can take a reaction before your first turn provided that your not surprised.
“If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a Reaction until that turn ends.” -they wouldn’t specify that reaction limitation for Surprise rounds if it was always the case. Additionally the reaction to the rolling of initiative takes place before combat has actually begun.
My current character has a DEX of 20 but I can never roll an initiative above 12 ; _ ;
Too bad Rogue's Reliable Talent doesn't work with another party member's Aura of the Sentinel, as it says "your proficiency bonus". Should work with multiclassing ofc.
chris for the love of god bring down the volume on the intro music my anxiety spikes every time
What about bless?
I'm always wondering why you'd spoiler such a a trap as "Scorpions Armor" for free. Maybe lots of ppls havent played the adventure yet...
Does Guidance and Enhance Ability stack?
I think yes. Different sources.
@@DBebeful I would say as they also do different things: advantage vs d4 increase.
had a char with +17 with advantage and a d8.
Just commenting for the algorithms
I don't think sage advice is very reliable. If they say "x was our intent" that's one thing but often it seems like personal dm interpretation/home ruling. In the latter case I'm not incline to take their word as RAI if they are reading things into a rule that the rule clearly does not state. It becomes further muddled when you have these cases of completely 180 takes in sage advice. Just because someone's a designer of d&d doesn't make their word law, published rules should supersede Twitter responses. (Yes I know that wotc does publish sage advice on their website but not all so-called sage advice makes it in there)