Small edit, you said 24 cards around the 7:30 minute mark when you obviously meant 18 (18/3=6 abilities). Might want to add a clarification. Take care.
one way i liked was we got an 8 and a 16 and rolled for the other 4 stats. that way you get to be skilled in at least one stat and bad in at least one stat. We all had something we didn't do well. I think this made us work better as a team.
I really like this system. Technically you could even have someone just use the cards and pick their own stats. If they want to pick an 18, great, but that's going to mean they're going to have to compensate for that with a lot of lower stats across the board. Anecdotally, I've played a character with a 20 Wisdom that I tried to maximize (with a couple of other stats just high enough to allow for some multiclassing). It's been fun to see what you can do with just Wisdom.
I like group rolls. That way, by definition, no one is outshining or under performing compared to anyone else. It is also easier for the DM to balance encounters this way too
I wonder if this is like how I like to do it: everyone rolls 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, and each of those arrays are added to a list with the "standard" array, and people pick whichever of those arrays they want?
@@1033515 I recently heard of a similar one. You roll 4d6 six times for a single array and everyone gets the same. Does your entire group get to use the same array or can players choose which array they like most? Because then you'll just get one or two arrays that are obviously better. With the method I heard you'll all have the same stats if they're bad or good. Didn't ask what they'd do if the stats were bad
I like the standard array that the dungeon dudes use because they like having strong characters 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8 Its not that different from standard array but it is a nice boost
I’m about to run Lost Mines for some people and told them to use this. We’ve a bigger party than 3 so I’m just hoping it doesn’t make encounters to easy for them.
I like this because you only need one ASI to max your primary (or even a half feat) and can use the rest for cool feats to customize your builds. I just ran a sixth level one shot with that array and every player chose a feat with their ASI since an 18 in primary was still useable.
That’s a very cool way of DEALING for stats😆The dungeon coach had a interesting way of doing it. He used the 72 method, but instead of rolling 6 starts you only roll for 5 of them. You then subtract the total of them from 72 to get the 6th stat. The only caveat is that you can’t have a stat higher than a 16 or lower than an 8. He had some ways of dealing with outliers. You should check it out😁 He also said if it’s the right group you can let them divide the 72 in any way they wanted.
Yeah I use a version of this one too. It means that strong characters have a major weakness and weak characters have a major strength. I do think that there could be some problems with it tho if you just get a bunch of 12s.
This is my favorite method as well. You can mess with the final total as well to influence the overall strength of the characters. I use a lower total in my game, but the principle remains.
The math in 5e is so tight that when our group allowed rolling it was spectacularly unbalancing. Just a couple of extra points make a huge difference. Now it's point buy or standard array only.
I don't see how that could be the case. The DM can adjust for more or less powerful characters through encounter design, just like playing with a more or less min maxed or power gamer group.
@Michael Lopate the issue is when one player is drastically stronger or weaker than the others. If all are strong, or all are weak, sure, but if you have one weak and the rest strong, you cant balance for that
I feel like the weirdo here, but I really like the Standard Point Array. I like the feeling of a well-rounded character, and that's what the Standard Point Array gives me.
Depends on the character, the more MAD the more I gravitate towards 15x3/8x3. Some classes like rogues really only *need* dex and con while for example a paladin wants high Str/dex, con and cha to be effective.
I like rolling stats but hate playing with them. Every single time I tried there has been at least one player with an average around my highest. My character might be ok but they're in a party with a couple of demigods who effortlessly outshine mine at every single thing. Absolute worst was a system where your starting stats determined your maximum and how many skill points you got per level.
An alternative to that which I like is that the party as a whole rolls one set of ability scores and everyone in the party uses those, placing them wherever they want. It ensures a fair and balanced party but depending on the campaign you might all be heros, or flunkies.
@@mogalixir This was way worse than that. Instead of 1-20 stats were 1-100 and the modifier wasn't linear but a curve so going from 50 to 80 had less impact than going from 95 to 100. Only extreme stats mattered. It had 10 stats in total 5 of which were designated development stats (no, you didn't get to chose which 5). You added those up and divided by 5 and that was how many points you got each level. Now, those points did EVERYTHING. If you wanted hit points, languages, lore, weapons, athletics, spells, mana, etc you had to pay to raise them with your points. Lower stats meant significantly lower stat bonuses on top of getting fewer points to spend.
Yup, I really liked the character generation in that otherwise but the stat distribution was a bit wacky. I think we rolled 11 scores and you could flip the tens and ones of the throws. Still ended with better scores than my friend and it caused some friction on occasion.
My personal favorite way to generate stats is 4d6 drop lowest - BUT, everyone at the table does it, and any array generated can be selected by anyone any number of times. That way, no player character has a higher base stat total than any other (unless they want to be), but there is a more interesting variety of stats available than PB or SA.
That actually sounds very fun! This way, if someone rolls some amazing stats, there is no jealousy or feelings of inadequacy. Instead, everyone can be just as happy together about the result. And if that would make the party OP, it's also much nicer to agree to collectively take the next best stat block. In contrast, needing to pressure a single player, who had amazing luck, to give up their stats for the sake of party balance could easily cause some bad blood.
3 up 3 down method: A player rolls 3 dice and then the magic happens! Roll a 1d6, 1d8, and 1d10 Your stats are as follows 10+1d6 15-1d6 10+1d8 15-1d8 8+1d10 17-1d10 Total: 75 The numbers chosen are pretty arbitrary, so feel free to tweak them to your own needs. The total will ALWAYS add up to the total of the numbers you choose since the dice are both added and subtracted. !3u3d command on Treantmonk's Discord :)
The thing I like about this method is that it keeps everything pretty fair - all party members are on even playing field at the start of the campaign. Simple method is roll 3d8. half your starting stats are 7 + rolled D8 and the other are 16- d8. You are using the same d8 for both adding and subtracting so your scores are balanced high/low. Gives you same range as point buy (8-15). For a slightly higher roll option, roll 6d6 and put the numbers into pairs. Half your scores are 6+2d6 and the other are 20-2d6. Gives you a slightly higher range than point buy (avg 13 vs 12.5) but again, your stats are fair. no bad luck to give you an awful experience. If you roll all 1's, you get 8's and 18, same as all 6's. at worst if you pair the dice yourself, you end with 3x 14 and 3x 12's - a pretty well rounded character.
YES!! The Holy Grail playing card method! I've been using this for the past year, and plan to allow my players to use this or standard array in my next game.
Thanks for your input Treantmonk! I've never heard of the "card array", but I really like it! As a DM I would allow players to arrange the cards however they want, mostly because I enjoy DMing for characters with profound strengths and weaknesses, while still allowing players to customize their scores in a balanced manner.
For more varied results while disregarding luck, you really can expand the point buy table in any direction for as long as you like. You could take something like this as a template: Score Cost 1 -16 2 -12 3 -9 4 -6 5 -4 6 -2 7 -1 8 0 9 1 10 2 11 3 12 4 13 5 14 7 15 9 16 12 17 15 18 19 19 23 20 28 (27 Points can be assigned still) And then just choose the cutoff points you're comfortable with.
I think the issue is that optimisation oriented players will almost always minmax as much as you allow them to, meaning you're creating the illusion of choice when they're just going to maximise their dependant stats and dump their dump stats harder
@@joshuawinestock9998 That is true, and an issue with Point Buy in general. The wider apart the cutoff points, the higher the potential for min-maxing. But this is a flaw in any system that lets you generate your scores yourself. To prevent optimized choices, you would have to prevent choices in general, which does not sound very fun either
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 It's true there's no perfect system. I think that's why I like some kind of lenient random system, with insurance against terrible rolls, so you have variety but also a level of "work with the tools you are given", circumstances stimulating creativity. And I mean you always get the choice of where to allocate the stats. I guess all I was saying is that raising the point buy cap will likely not create more varied results, just more acute minmaxing
The problem is that it’s very hard to understand a score less than 8, unless you specifically work with that population. If you *do* work with that population, it’s unlikely you’ll want to play them as a heroic character. True dump stats (7 or less) in any category makes for an unheroic character.
@@michaelwinter742 I dunno man, I reckon you can have great high fantasy stories about frail wizards with 5 strength or grinning fighters with 6 intelligence
I've seen a lot of your videos (and enjoyed many of them) and even if I don't build a character like you, I still get insight to the strengths of many characters options, choices, and features. You have many melee builds, but I believe you only have one that uses a shield with a spear. (glory paladin from theros). Could you shed some light on the strengths a sword and board build can have even if its not as optimal as GWM builds?
Unless your game is full of magic items, then you kinda need homebrew to make a S&B character decent. Unless you are going something like max AC artificer.
I’ve been toying with the idea of a 2 paladin x swords bard that takes shield master and uses expertise in athletics for shoving and knocking enemies prone. Tbh though, I’m toying with that idea as a backup character in a game where I’d have 18,18,16,14,14,10 to play with as stats before racial modifiers so I wouldn’t be as worried about ASI increases as if I were doing pointbuy.
Spear+shield and dueling fighting style and polearm master is a good combo. (Variant Human) 1D6+2+S a bonus 1d4+2+S and a reaction 1D6+2+S Longsword+shield with dueling only nets you a single attack 1D8+2+S which does kind of suck... But usually a better combo that +1AC I prefer the +1AC on GWM toons as a 17 is much better than a 16 at lower levels.
I really like the card method! Although it is problematic for those of us that play online, but not impossible. If you want to simulate the card method online, just line up the numbers: 2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6 and roll a d18, take out your number, then roll a d17 with the remainder, take that number out, roll a d16 and take out that result; and those three numbers are your first set of three cards. Repeat the process for the other 15 numbers to get your other 5 sets of 3 cards.
I generally use one of three methods. 1. 'Everyone is a hero'. 4D6, reroll any 1s, drop lowest after no 1s left. Generally nets average ability scores of about 13. (Instead of 11.5) and much more likely to have 18s and very rare to have really low stats, 6 being your lowest now. 2. 'Your choice' - roll 4D6 drop lowest and create TWO arrays... Now choose which array you want. Generally involves people choosing between a boring, but better array or one with more 'spikes'. 3. Roll, but with Backup (most common) Just roll 4D6 drop lowest but if you want can alwaya just default to the standard array. So you can always build out your character in pencil before the session using the atandard array and when you roll you are simply aiming to improve. And finally, not a rolling method of sorts but I often ask and allow players to REDUCE a stat on purpose, if they want. For 'roleplaying purposes' say dropping an int to 6, or a strength to 6 etc.
I really like this method! I've moved to Point-Buy as well (though I give some bonus numbers at the end), and I realized that almost everyone ends up with pretty much the same stats, because "14+2 Racial" is obvious for the main stat, and 14 Con, and so on, and so forth... This keeps some extra variety in there, as well a tad of flexibility, and the confirmation that everyone will have the same total points :)
To me this actually suggest how limiting the stats themselves might be in creating interesting characters (assuming all players have roughly equal stat totals just different allocations), such that you "always" need one power stat, one decent CON stat, and then a bunch of low variance stuff to fill out the rest cuz yes they're "easy" to dump-stat but it also means that they don't bring much meaning to your character. In a potentially perfect world all stats would be asymmetrically balanced really well against one another such that both casual players and veteran players can roll the dice with absolutely no fear cuz they know they can find value out of any stat, but maybe that also creates characters which all feel same-y. idk what the answer is but after rolling a handful of characters for one/two/three shots and a few short campaigns i feel like all characters either play the same or are too strong/too weak to enjoy
D&D is pretty much the most flawed character creation system I know. Since the proficiency bonus is bound, there's literally no way to make up for bad stats using skill. Stats don't have to be perfectly equal in a good system, but instead one should be able to easily reach a softcap (or well into diminishing returns) even with bad stats - the stat itself would mostly be useful if you want to be good at ALL aspects of said stat.
The design decision to have primary stats for every class was flawed IMHO. If every class has use for all stats then there are some real design decisions. For example, if Dex was used to hit and Str for damage then all martials would have a interest in both. In 3e, the Combat Expertise feat tree fed off of Intelligence. A fighter using that tree could be very different than one that concentrated on maxing Strength and using a great axe.
If you are lucky enough to have a session zero then the character creation becomes a framing device for a campaign. A card based ability score generation reminds me of dead lands, so really any western or gambler story could really benefit from this. I will try it in my next classless level zero character funnel, it seems faster than dice too. Thanks Chris.
Posting it here again because I think I've missed the comment window last time: Don't know if that's the place to make this comment but, here's an idea for a couple of videos: "build rescue". How to optimize builds for a campaign that would go up to X lvl if my character already is at lvl Y, and I may have picked sub-optimal race/stats? How to cut the losses or even perhaps find something reasonable? Maybe picking some random character sheets sent by viewers and talking options for the next lvl ups.
In my groups we normally have 5 players. So what we do is, everyone, including me the DM, rolls 4d6, drop the lowest once. We then have 6 stats, seeing as there has been 6 rolls. Everyone then uses those 6 rolls as their base and if a score is under 15 they can adjust it as per point buy costs, but pay that cost by taking away from another state, to a minimum of 8. Highly customizable, highly random, but everyone is the same.
That "cards" is an interesting system, and seems flexible (so it is not all luck, can be correcting) and fair, as all have about the same pool. It is hard to do in online games, especially with people we don't know. One thing my main group did with the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) stats was to shift all Standard Arrays to they were all odd numbers, so our array is now 15, 15, 13, 11, 11, 9. This means many Racial +1 move an ability score to the next meaningful slot at character start, and this also applies to all 4th level (etc) when considering AS improvements. Thus, at 4th level, players are guaranteed that getting a +1 to many AS will mean something right away (a +1 to that score's effects). That had an interesting effect: players were a bit less likely to choose a Feats at 4th, 8th, 12th because they saw immediate rewards. And, some still wanted to 4d6 roll them anyway.
When starting a new party, I do an auction. I determine the number of ability scores to be generated by multiplying the number of PCs by 6. Then I roll that number of ability scores, in secret, using 4d6 best three. I put each result on an index card and then write down some perks on other index cards to add to the deck. Those could be unpopular feats, or magic items, or PC features not commonly covered by the rules, or an ally ... anything. I also include a couple drawback cards, like a movement penalty, an enemy, or a mystery drawback (which could be a curse). Then, we shuffle the cards and people get to bid on them with us rotating through who makes the starting bid. For the drawback cards, the failure to raise the bid means you get the card.
That card system seems pretty good. I'm a bit looser with optimised play as I really enjoy roleplay and teamplay, so I'm usually happy to have a dumptruck of a dump stat, as it opens up a vulnerability for your teammates to cover, and gives you some dynamics to roleplay around. Some examples are my -3 Charisma ranger with an unintelligible accent, and a -3 Strength Warlock who calls for help from a friend (or his patron) to open a jar of pickles
I think a modified point buy is the best option. The one I came up with was made before Tasha's, which solves some of the same issues I was trying to solve. I would totally be open to other modifications, but this is the best I could come up with. I think that point buy is by far the fairest method. Even more fair than Standard Array because some characters rely on having 3 good stats more than others, so some classes like Monks and Paladins have a harder time with Standard Array. The following changes are made to the Point Buy Method presented in the PHB - - You have 33 points to start instead of 27 - The "Starting Score" (i.e. investing 0 points) is 7 instead of 8 - All point costs are increased by 1 (i.e. an 8 now costs 1 point and a 15 now costs 10 points) - You can buy a 16 for 12 points - (Optional) Everyone gets a free feat at 1st level. Variant Human and Custom Lineage are banned. - (Optional) After all modifiers are applied, no one can have an ability score higher than 17.
For our current Strahd campaign, I got the four players to choose then use a way of rolling once each, they got 11, 11, 11 and 14. I then added an 8 and a 13. This was there own Standard Array. As part of their solo 0.5 lead in to Session 1 they all gained a +1. Worked out nicely.
An interesting alternate method I ran into on one campaign was Primary Stat Priority. Primary Stats are the ones that are naturally given saving throw proficiency by a class. After rolling stats by any method, you could take add 1 to a primary stat by subtracting 2 from a non-primary stat. I believe the DM placed a lower bound of 6 and you couldn't do a partial trade (subtract 1 from 2 stats).
Alternate idea for the card thing (I think it's quite neat as it is). For new players just use the system described here, I think it should work out perfectly. For experienced players, that come to the table perhaps with more set ideas of what they want to play and how to achieve that I would make the same deck of 18 cards you showed here (3*2,4*3,4*4,4*5,3*6) but take apart 6 cards (2,3,4,4,5,6) then ask them to shuffle and deal 6 groups of 2 cards. Then, they can choose from the pool of left apart cards one card to add to each of their dealt stats. This lets the players have more of a say in their final stats, while preserving some randomness and also making sure every PC ends up with the same sum of ability scores (in this case 72 but could be easily increased or decreased as you see fit with the distribution of cards. I'd personally use 74, which is the rough average total for 6 rolls of 4d6 drop lowest and see where it takes us) This method will likely end up with more 18s and 6s than full random, but in no way should mean that every PC will have an 18 (you'd have to deal the only two 6s you have in the deck in the same stat, something that should not happen too often)
For our next campaign we have split into pairs and the DM has rolled an array of 12 abilities scores (using 4d6 d1) for us to allocate out as we see fit. Worst case scenario people just take the best stat in a round robin style format, in which case it's basically the same as the usual /r 6 4d6 d1, but it allows for pairs to work together to facilitate MAD characters with a nice distribution of stats whilst allowing the SAD bards to snatch a juicy 18 and a 14 or so for their con. For something like AL or solo players joining tables I can see this not being viable, but for a long term group I thought this was a really nice touch and thought I'd share it on here.
Big preference for point buy, but in a game we recently tried a modified BINGO method; the normal BINGO method says two players can't use the same set, and we got rid of that. (BINGO creates a grid of 6 sets of rolled stats in order, then you can choose any column, row, or diagonal) I still like point buy the best- sometimes with more points, lower minimums, higher maximums etc; but even if rolls decide everything else, I want character creation to be fair. Treantmonk's method is interesting and I'll consider it when I run my next campaign!
My personal favourite is for the whole party to roll an array together. If there's six players, they roll an AS each, if there's more or less, they have to figure it out amongst themselves. It's random, which is fun, it is balanced between the team, which is good, and you don't get the urge to have your character die so you can roll better ability scores. A win all around!
I've been playing since 2e and it took way too long for me to realize that every rolling rules variation is evaluated against whether or not it ends up with stats that are close to the standard array. The more it does so, the more "fair" it seems to be judged by folks. If you want random, take your array of choice, then roll a d6 to see which stat gets the highest number (strength = 1, ..., charisma = 6) and keep rolling until you've got the array values assigned. There are fairly trivial ways to make it faster as you get to the last 3 slots and keep it random.
Since my table rolls dice for stats, I recently made a calc sheet to know the likelihood of each result, and I was surprised to see that it's unlikely to get unusable stats. For example, getting 15 or above in 3 stats is twice as likely (14 %) as getting 3 stats with negative modifiers (7 %), and the average roll is better than what you'd get with point buy (not counting the fact that the DM is likely to let you reroll if you end up with extremely bad stats). Although I'm not surprised that you dislike character stats involving luck, considering how you tend to like spells that provide little randomness; I think that, in the case of rolling stats, the odds are quite in your favour.
I have DMed two long term campaigns. I used standard array last campaign and then used 4d6 method, allowing them to reroll the whole set if they didn’t like it, if they didn’t like their reroll they could use standard array. This kept an element of luck and some characters are slightly stronger, but it stopped any character being weak. I think I’ll probably do the dungeon dudes “heroic” standard array, which is slightly buffered be normal. I like that the stats are more normalised with standard array,. It might mean more predictable level ones, but by inflating it slightly, I think you end up leaving people open to take more interesting feats or buff up a less traditional stat
my favorite method is to have every player at the table roll an array, and let them all choose from any of the arrays. That way, even if one or two players got unlucky, there was bound to be someone who got something good. If multiple people got good arrays, then it let the players choose from, say, "one 18 and a few mediocre stats" or "two 16s and one 8 and some middling stats", etc. etc. That way, no one gets left behind because of bad luck, but we keep the fun of rolling for stats
A mix between the roll 4, drop 1 method and the point buy method: Roll 24d6, get rid of the lowest 6. Arrange the numbers in any order you like. Pros: leads to statistically less variable results between players and the customisability of point buy. Con: Almost always guarantees an 18 though so only do it if you are okay with powerful main stats.
I think a lot of people don't think ahead when choosing an ability score method. Most people like randomness, but don't want bad luck. What these people usually want is either higher ability scores than you can normally get, or a mixture of some low low numbers and high high numbers. As you sort of mentioned, randomness isn't good for this, since while on average you'll probably get what you want, it isn't consistent. My favourite is still point buy, but personally I do see the value in the possibility of a low low score and a high high score. One thing I've thought of as a concept is using scribes wizard to avoid being in combat and using the subclass features to fire spells from, then having a super high intelligence but a con of 3 (from a 4d6 drop lowest all 1s roll), so you never have more than 2hp by taking average hp. The character could die super easily and so has to play extra carefully. Another thing I thought of as a concept was a character that has a 20 in every stat, but has a kind of racial detriment that means they always have "bad luck" effects, and see how well they do. Things like having disadvantage in all rolls, hitting allies with rolled 1s on attacks or spells backfiring, to see how far stats can best luck. Overall I think rolling stats can be fun for one off characters, but for longer campaigns which is my preference I'd prefer to use point buy. In those cases I'd prefer some other point buy rules, perhaps have a cost to take feats, reduce the minimum stat and maximum stat so you can choose more varied stats. I think if you want higher stats than is normally allowed there should either be a cost to it or you should talk with your dm about questing for magic items that can solve that character building issue, such as gauntlets of Ogre power to help with the soradin build you just made a video on.
I like your method. If we're going random, I think it could be interesting to lock the cards to a particular ability scores when being drawn. Some of the most interesting stuff I've made came from taking something, like high Charisma and high Wisdom, and developing a build around that. You'd need some allowance for Constitution though. Maybe let it be swapped for any other stat? I think that would work.
One thing that 5E dice roll generation doesn’t have that earlier editions did is the Hard Reroll rule. No ability score above 13? A sum of ability mods less than or equal to +1? Chuck your scores in the bin and try again. It definitely helps with Dice Roll Stat Gen. As an aside - Chris, I 115% respect and understand your view about the inherent issues with rolled stats, but for me, there’s something deeply addictive about the process. Maybe you get that elusive 18 to start, stick it in your primary casting stat, and have a maxed INT/WIS/CHA at Level 1. Or maybe you’re like a guy I used to play 3.5 with - roll four 1s on your 4d6, refuse the GM’s offer of a free reroll, stick that 3 into INT, pick a race with an INT penalty (because RAW you couldn’t have a PC with an INT less than 3) and RP the hell out of being *actually* as dumb as a bag of rocks.
My firends and I for a couple of years have used the Dungeon Dudes' improved array of 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8. Allows for MAD classes like Ranger and Paladin to be more effective, means easier to pick feats over ASI, and just leads to feeling more powerful which in turn means combats can be a little meatier. Also means most characters can have something they're pretty good at even if they're SAD, and now Con doesn't always need to be the secondary stat of everyone as it can easily be 14 and a solid tertiary.
i'm personally a big fan of the 4d6 method, with the caveat that there is only one set of rolls, made by the table in turn at session 0, from which set every player can take their ability scores and put them wherever they like
I've been using something I call the Heroic Array since the Darksun Box set. 12,13,14,15,16,17 It puts all the chars on the same playing field plus they all get to feel like a badass. I also use the same rolling rules for any Custom Chars/foils I build for them so it keeps the Bad guys on the same playing field
I really like this system and have used similar 'higher score' systems. If the players are supposed to truly be HEROES, then I like to let them be HEROIC. Like comparing 'street level' Marvel heroes (Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye) compared to 'normal people,' and we avoid getting any heroes like Thor while the players still get to feel like they really have impact on events. And, of course, the heroes' nemeses also get a similar boost. I prefer this setting more than just "Joe Shmoe putting down his rake for a sword" hero.
Wow, what an ingenious idea. I may even use it, perhaps with a slightly different deck. Eh, even having a deck of 24 cards, aces through sixes, and doing "draw four, drop the lowest" would greatly increase fairness compared to the usual rolling method
I like this method, because you can make tweaks to the deck to account for more or less powerful characters. By replacing one of the 2s or 3s with a fourth 6, you can get more powerful characters; or you could go the other way for a lower powered game.
we've used point buy since the start at our table regardless of whoever DMs. i agree with you that i don't like ability score generation that involves luck or that isn't fair for all players. what we've adjusted with the point buy system is to just increase the points a bit like having 29, 31 or 33 points to start. i do like the method you shared though as i like playing cards. i'd probably just suggest a slight tweak and replace one 3 with 1 6. so it becomes: 3 2's 3 3's 4 4's 4 5's 4 6's
Yeah ability scores are way too important to have them randomly determined. And since they're determined upfront as your first act of making the character, basically it ends up giving you a bitter taste in your mouth for a character right at the start. So naturally you just try to get that character killed, because that's the best way to get a reroll. Going to point buy prevents a lot of monster-assisted suicides.
We have two methods of ability score generation. Option 1 has more standard stats. Option 2 seeks to give the characters higher stats overall and more similar stats. Option 1: Roll the standard 4d6x6 random generation. Now to alleviate terrible luck these conditions either force or allow a re-roll: 1. 2 stats below 10 and no stat 14 or above re-roll. 2. 3 stats below 10 you may re-roll. Now before you calculate the final maximum for each 4 dice you are allowed to swap two dice between ability scores. That means if you have (4,6,3,2) and (6, 5, 1, 1) you could get (6,5,6,1=17) and (4,1,3,2=9). Option 2: Instead roll 4d6x7 and pick the top 6 sets from the 7. The condition for re-rolls here can be the same as above or more strict so characters all have good stats. 1. Re-roll if your top 6 stats are less than point buy 27 (extrapolating above and below 15/8) You still get to swap one dice but now you can steal a dice from the 7th set and discard the resulting low stat. The re-roll conditions ensure that you won't be useless and you should at least be able to have 1 stat you can do something with. Often that 14 can turn into a 15 or 16 with a swap. The swaps themselves require some thought. Do you go for 2 high stats, or one really high stat, or make a low roll average. I think it adds a fun step for optimization during character creation which for those who like random rolls.
I use a slightly different 24d6 dice method, where you drop the 2 highest and 4 lowest. It does have some luck of course, as you say, but what I've found is that people's overall spread of stats will be much closer than other rolling methods. It's basically never gonna happen that one person got 3 18s and another person got nothing above a 14 or something like that. So, while it seems like a fairly luck based method, I think the real spread of stats you get is pretty solid and not gonna get messed up too much, so I like the little bit of luck it does impart. I mean, I do think your way with the cards is good, but you still can't get lower than a 6 as your lowest stat, so I think I do still prefer the slightly random 24d6 for that.
We've done a very different method of rolling, but I'd only recommend it if your dm is good at challenging your party regardless of how powerful they are. We all roll(method doesn't matter), and everyone takes the highest array rolled.
I have been using a powered standard array of 16-15-13-12-10-8 with great results. Another idea I'm considering is a group roll, where every player rolls 4d6 drop lowest one time and the party share the rolls, that way you have both luck and an even group.
One video idea, piggybacking with this video idea (and what I thought what was about this video) is: what about some type of characters for an unlucky player? Like, "okay, i rolled really badly, what can I do to make it work reasonably well", from a strictly mechanical POV. It would be a cool concept of a video.
I love this generation method! I always hate going to the table and somehow a character made by another PC doesn’t have an ability below 16. Like how it’s a perfect balance between luck and point buy for balance!!!
This is a really neat stat generation method. I remember a little while back when people on reddit were abuzz with the various ways that their table generates stats, and they're all rather convoluted and mostly meant to assure at least a mediocre stat arrangement. This one just seems much more elegant and equitable, which I think are two highly desirable traits for a method.
Best method i have seen saw all players roll for stats but rather then you being stuck with your low roll you could instead take the roll of another player at the table. This method insures that one player doesn't get an awesome roll while another gets a low roll as it equalizes the players at the table. This does not mean everyone is forced too take the same players rolls.
I really like the method with the cards! That little bit of interactivity goes a long way to help players with bad luck against standing helplessly before their results. This can really turn a bad spread around!
I watched one from nerd immersion and it was the tic tac toe method roll 3 d 6 3 times and place them in any order you wish in 3x3 blocks. Then chose a row top to bottom or side to side or diagonal. Add them together and that's your character. You have 8 choices choose 6.
Great video. The other random ability score generation methods I can get on board with are where the group shares the luck of the ability scores between themselves. I.e. roll all the scores and then use a fair way to distribute the numbers between everyone. This way the power gap between players is at least concensual, as power gap is the biggest problem of random ability scores in my opinion 🙂
I feel like it'd be fun to add bonus objectives like 3 of a kind or flushes granting an extra +1 or a feat to give players something to think about when they don't flip poorly.
While I generally use point buy, I really like your method. Thinking about it, I like Delilah's method too, but what I would do as a DM is roll 22d6, drop 4, and then say that all players use the same pool of dice when building their characters. That way, they each have a substantial amount of customizability, but no one character will be inherently stronger than another. If the overall pool happens to be stronger or weaker than average, then the DM can adjust the campaign to compensate, and this will be fine since all characters will be equally above or below average.
I honestly thought the card method was going to be 'put the cards in piles of three to choose your own stats'. Similar to other comments, I love rolling stats. I hate it when everyone is disparate and one PC is just 'better' at nearly everything. I'm a fan of several methods, of which I'll note a couple of below. The ethos of methods I like boil down to a few things: 1 - Balance. Give the party alike pools, avoiding individual excellency or underachievers 2 - Fun. Generating stats should not be an inhibitor to gameplay, or raise potential issues during the game 3 - Simple. As long as how the numbers are generated is easy to understand, then it works fine. Obviously some players will find certain aspects appealing that others don't... That is up to a GM to manage and pick what will work for everyone at their table. Two methods I like: Bingo - Roll a grid of stats and then the DM and Party agree on which lines to use. I've used a 6x6 grid with many different lines, and a 3x3 where you pick 2 lines of 3. This can be limited within a total point boundary (say 70-80 totals only), or can be made 'all the same', or 'all different' for the lines selected. Ultimately there are usually enough options that you can make it work for everyone. Pick your stats - Give players a point cap and/or a starting stat cap, then just let them pick what they want. Rolling is fun but getting the numbers you want where you want them means more fun later. Point buy does a good enough job but sometime you want something with a bit more oomph.
One method that should produce numbers similar to point buy: Roll 5d8. Choose 2 of them. For each of those you get one ability score that is 7 + the result and one ability score that is 16 - the result. Choose another of the d8s. Your next ability score is 7 + the result. Choose one of the final two d8s. Your last ability score is 16 - the result.
We keep it pretty simple at our table, 4d6 drop the lowest as normal, if the total of all your stats is below 70 you can roll again. If you get above 70 but don't like the stats, you can use point buy.
Nerd immersion had shared a rolling method that was 2d6 +6. I like this method because it prevents the very swingy lower numbers. It keeps your lowest possible stat to an 8 like in point buy, avoiding you having anything from a 3-7. I always use point buy but I'd enjoy that rolling method to experiment with
I think I'd really dislike that method. First of all, it will average to better than point buy (averages to 13, slightly better than point buy, and can get numbers significantly better than what you can get via point buy). But also, the main reason I would want random generation would be to be able to have stats lower than 8. It's kind of boring to always have characters who can be, at worst, slightly below average in something.
I've been using a roll method which is guaranteed that all players get equeal stats. You only roll 3 dice. A d6 d8 and d10 And you get your scores by adding the rolled result to the formula: 10+d6 15-d6 10+d8 15-d8 8+d10 17-d10 This always results in an array of 75 points, which is slightly above standard array. Even if you roll all 1 or all max you will still get rather interesting stats. Although I like the card variant pretty well. Should try it out next time.
Collective rolling, my party of five players and the dm each rolled 4d6 drop the lowest once each and we used those results for all our characters. It does nothing about the randomness of the stats but it does address the inequality issue of stat rolling that I’ve found to be more of an issue at standard tables
I like making the stat roll a part of character creation. I sit down with the player and talk about what their character is like and what qualities they have and then we start at average and roll a die or two to add to the good qualities and maybe take a point or two off the bad qualities until it looks right, about where everyone else is. Makes both processes better. Ensures synergy. Saves time. ~
The cards remind me of my favorite way to play Catan. A stack of 36 cards, one with each of the pairs of dice results on 2d6. Shuffle, burn 5 off the top of the deck, then play through. When you're done, reshuffle and burn a new 5. It's nice in the sense that you'll hew a lot closer to the proper 2d6 bell curve, and even the 2 and the 12 will show up sometimes, but that burn 5 prevents easy counting, and makes it so it isn't quite as strictly every result happening.
We do it in two ways. Usually, dm rolls 4 dice 7 times, drop lowest die each roll, then remove 1 roll depending on score concentration. Thats the character scores for all players. Then they pick and choose where they place them. If we don't wanna do this, we just pick from predetermined stats, though we have different numbers we pick from; 17,15,13,11,10,8.
My favorite method is the original Gary Gygax method 3d6 for all stats in a specific order (non interchangeable) it's really funny playing a character so much grounded in reality that actually struggle to survive the most basic thing... Or you know, you can roll four sixteens and two eighteens and be a f****ng god... Yes I'm talking about you Thomas, I know you watch this channel as well
I personally like the 4 dice method. Unless you really roll badly you are certain to get a couple scores to place in your primary stats. Plus the racial adjustments will help as well. With the buying stats you get a bunch of cookie cutter characters, plus a couple of low stats can add some fun to the game. A party of Super Heroes gets kind of boring after a while.
people who roll stats say they want randomness but i think they just want an 18 before modifiers and to be fair i also want an 18 tbh thats kind of awesome, i can start with a 20 in a stat at level 1: even a 16 or a 17 is really good too since 15 is the highest point buy can give me
Stats guy here. 22d6 will typically give you something similar to a normal distribution. Dropping 4d6 will cut off the lower tail, so you're left with mostly decent rolls and then leave the big outliers there. So.... that's gonna create some powerful characters at level 1.
Thanks to you i now have a super cool sugestion to show my dnd group! Another video Topic sugestion: What do you think of the long rest alternatives like gritty realism and such... Do you like them ? Do they make some classes way stronger than others ? Hope you like the sugestion , and sry for any grammar mistake, I ' m not a Native speaker :) P.s - i love your dnd videos , specially your deep dives in diferent aspects of our favourite table top role playing game. Keep the good work pal 👍
I just played with some cards to try this and I like this system. I did like this system. I did run into a situation where I got a bunch of 12s. I would just add you get one redeal of the carts but if you do it you can't go back to the old set. Helps if someone runs into the all 12 situation but won't be helpful to everyone because you could get worse luck the 2nd time.
One thing I never see people mention when discussing attribute scores online is how by RAW they also affect RP. This is probably because the level of RP in games varies wildly from table to table but even for comparatively low RP games I think it’s something people should consider. A character who is good at everything may be somewhat fun to play during combat, but a character who is good at everything is boring from an RP perspective because there is no dramatics. This is also true, at least in my experience, for a character who is average at everything and one that is bad at everything. For this reason I vastly prefer point buy or standard array over rolled as it leads to more mechanically interesting characters in all aspects of the game. Obviously not everyone is playing D&D for the same reasons, which more than anything is a testament to how well designed the game is, but at least for me, D&D is about telling a story with my friends, and I’ve found the best stories are told when the characters have varied skill sets and varied flaws. Rolling stats is creating a scenario where more often than not, players might be missing this experience. Just my two cents.
I had 1 DM that had us roll 4 sets of stats, but if you rolled a stat number 3 times in 1 set, that that becomes the max of any stat in that set( rolling 3 12's, 2 18's and a 10 give you a 10 and 5 12's in that set! In 5E, i tend to roll a 6 for each character i make with 4d6-lowest! I had a Halfling Diviner that ended up with a 6 and 3 14's with a 10 and 13 and that was with racial bonuses!
An interesting point buy I've seen is from Starfinder. All scores are purchased 1:1 (though I think this could be improved, although it does follow the KISS rule) and cannot be increased past 18. You add your racial bonuses before purchasing the increased stats.
We do the 4D6 but we roll the six stats twice. Pick the better round, but no mix and matching. We also allow that, if a character concept needs to further rearrange scores, we can steal points from other stats to do so. It helps realize character design and soften the randomness, and I think we all fairly happy w it, but it is a generous method that might not work for everyone. My thinking is to err on the side of generosity because it sucks to play a character w terrible stats. The dice will be sure to fuck us over later anyway ha.
My favorite random methods are 4d6 and 2d6+6. 4d6 is classic. 2d6+6 is a lot lower variation (hardcapped between 8 and 18). Once you roll lots of dice and start arranging them... like... why roll? Just do point buy and maybe up the points and maybe come up with values for 16s and even 17s in point buy. As I see it, there's two purposes for random stats: first is to maybe get an 18. Second is to have idiosyncratic characters. Rolling a large pile of dice and organizing them as you like can get you the 18s, but it's functionally the same as a point buy but better. At which point, rolling seems pointless. To that end, I'm also a roll-and-preserve order player. My standard is what I call *"The Wheel."* I'll roll 4d6 seven times, keeping the order. I'll delete one score, and then assign Strength to one, doesn't have to be the first one, then loop around to the start. To be clear, this isn't a method for creating optimum characters. It's a way to roll some dice and jot in the margins of a notebook while bored in the laundromat or something. Example roll: 15, 11, 10, 14, 13, 17, 7. You probably want to delete the 7. You've got this sequence of two adjacent low scores (11, 10), two solid middle scores (14, 13), and two high scores (17, 15). You'll do best with a character who wants their best two stats right next to each other. If you wanted a Strength user with the 17 in strength, you get an impressive 15 dex, but a pathetic 11 con. High Int looks like the best use of these scores to me. 10 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 17 Int, 15 Wis, 11 Cha. That'd be a great Artificer or Wizard, with capped Medium armor to start. Probably can't make a decent Monk, since a monk needs Great - Good - Dump - Great in sequence. You can do a nice 17 dex, 15 Con, but then your Int and Wis are both trash. Maybe good for a Swashbucker Rogue or a Dex Paladin, either of whom can use the 14 Cha, but not a Monk. So there's going to be a lot of ways to build any particular set of rolls, but by preserving the adjacencies of the dice, you might get stuff that's a bit different than you would if going for a point buy or standard array. Again, not optimum for table play, but probably as much fun as you can get for thought experiments. One other possible wrinkle: roll the 4d6 in 7 pairs. As you create your character, the opposite number in the pair becomes an associated NPC. A friend, a mentor, someone you need to protect, a mostly friendly rival, a deadly enemy. Doesn't matter what, except as a spur to the imagination.
I've done a system where I made 10 different stat blocks, all being an arrangement of stats that were impossible with point buy and went to some care to make them all unusual and mostly balanced compared to eachother (no exact science but a lot of revision and comparison and roughly made theoretical characters comparing them). Then on session zero the 3 players, as a group, draw 5 stat blocks and choose the ones they each wanted with some consultation amongst themselves.
My personal favorite for some time now has been 2D6+6. I do like some luck involved in ability score generation, but roll 4D6 drop the lowest is a bit too erratic for me. Getting a score of 4 or 5 feels awful, even in a dump stat. 2D6+6 has less luck involved (still some tho!), has a minimum of 8, maximum of 18, average of 12.5 and is very simple to explain to newcomers. This card method is also interesting and may want to try it out in the future!
I really wish the official 4d6 method said "drop one" instead of "drop lowest". It's intuitive that high stats are good, but I find that stats below 10 often do more to shape your character's personality and give them weaknesses. In my last campaign with several new players, some were genuinely disappointed to get scores below 12 and asked for re-rolls. I'm not a DM, but the method I've liked best is for a DM-given standard array. Most Point Buy allocations look incredibly similar. Rolling can give some players significant advantage. Custom standard array means everyone's on the same footing, but you can make it a bit more interesting than the RAW distribution.
I have a solution to your concerns on rolling stats for characters. My system avoids low and very high stat sets almost all of the time and always avoids any player in the party having better or worse stats than the others. Each player rolls 4d6drop1 6 times but they keep their best score and put the rest into a party pool. After all players are done the player with the lowest score gets the highest from the pool. This continues til all players have two stats (their top two generally). The order of the players taking a stat in the following rounds is determined by whoever has the lowest total. This continues until all the scores are distributed. I have made some refinements eg distributing the bottom 6 scores as the third round because there is often more variance in scores here and if left til last may mean a player has several fewer points in total than their party members. One of the benefits of this system is every player is invested in the results of rolls by their party members and cheers or groans with each stat rolled as it might end up being theirs. Tie breakers can be based on whoever has the lowest value for their top stat, whoever has the most odd numbered stats, youngest player...
I like this, i have a way of doin it where i have someone do 3 sets of 4d6 - lowest. Then they pick which lot they prefer, and can switch one stat from their chosen set with one of the others left out. Keeps an 18 at max, but has a back up for low stats or the 12/13 in every stat
I have every player roll 4d6 six times, like normal, and we make a list of the results. Each player can pick from that list. So lets say we have three players, Johnny, rolled 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 11. Pretty average, having your top two stats be a 14 and 13 is going to feel bad, and you'll be behind for the whole campaign. Sally rolled a 16, 16, 14, 11, 9, 8. Same average as Johnny, but significantly more effective as a DnD character. Timmy rolled an 18, 12, 11, 10, 7, 6; an average well below both other rolls, but that 18 is a very enticing starting point for any SAD build. Now the players can choose the rolls they are going to use. Johnny is playing a wizard, so he goes with Timmy's rolls for the 18, and Sally and Timmy use Sally's roll because they are playing MAD builds. The characters are starting more powerful than standard characters, but nobody at the table is less powerful than anyone else at the table because of 1 minute of bad luck. Sometimes it leads to a strong group, but everyone gets to be strong together.
Newer to dm'ing. Last time I did, everyone got really lucky except for one player with stat generation and I kept worrying that it'd create an unfun power trough, especially since they were new players. Definitely going to try this method in an upcoming campaign
From my experience, DND servers that do allow random stats have a stat total minimum mechanic where if your stats are automatically re-rolled if they are exceedingly low. For example, having a stat minimum of 60 means that if every stat was somehow 9 or less it would be considered invalid and be re-rolled, preventing characters weaker than commoners in terms of stats from being caused by bad RNG. Since public servers are too large to cater to extreme edge cases in power level, having such minimums is import for encounter balance and not having PCs. Though most servers allow point buy, and it is much more common for rolled stats to be dis-allowed than it is point-buy to be dis-allowed.
The only problem I see with that card method is there's still chance for unfair stats, albeit relativity low. Highest stat could be an 18 or a 14, 18 would be exceedingly rare and 14 better but still very rare. But highest stats of 15 or 17 have decent odds. Common scenario I see is all players have a 16 except one player has a 15 or 17; not that bad, but if you've ever optimized the difference is real, then just leaves you wondering what we gained from doing stats this way.
Small edit, you said 24 cards around the 7:30 minute mark when you obviously meant 18 (18/3=6 abilities). Might want to add a clarification. Take care.
He had 4 of 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. 5x4 is 20. Only 18 get used however.
@@guarjordanlabagoulbourne8619 only 3 2s and 3 6s
one way i liked was we got an 8 and a 16 and rolled for the other 4 stats. that way you get to be skilled in at least one stat and bad in at least one stat. We all had something we didn't do well. I think this made us work better as a team.
I really like this system. Technically you could even have someone just use the cards and pick their own stats. If they want to pick an 18, great, but that's going to mean they're going to have to compensate for that with a lot of lower stats across the board. Anecdotally, I've played a character with a 20 Wisdom that I tried to maximize (with a couple of other stats just high enough to allow for some multiclassing). It's been fun to see what you can do with just Wisdom.
I like group rolls. That way, by definition, no one is outshining or under performing compared to anyone else. It is also easier for the DM to balance encounters this way too
I wonder if this is like how I like to do it: everyone rolls 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, and each of those arrays are added to a list with the "standard" array, and people pick whichever of those arrays they want?
@@1033515 I recently heard of a similar one. You roll 4d6 six times for a single array and everyone gets the same. Does your entire group get to use the same array or can players choose which array they like most? Because then you'll just get one or two arrays that are obviously better. With the method I heard you'll all have the same stats if they're bad or good. Didn't ask what they'd do if the stats were bad
I like the standard array that the dungeon dudes use because they like having strong characters 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8
Its not that different from standard array but it is a nice boost
I’m about to run Lost Mines for some people and told them to use this. We’ve a bigger party than 3 so I’m just hoping it doesn’t make encounters to easy for them.
I like this because you only need one ASI to max your primary (or even a half feat) and can use the rest for cool feats to customize your builds. I just ran a sixth level one shot with that array and every player chose a feat with their ASI since an 18 in primary was still useable.
I believe that is known as the 'elite array', from third edition
I do this for the tables I run. Feels good for the players when they can take a half feat and get to 20 on their first ASI
That’s a very cool way of DEALING for stats😆The dungeon coach had a interesting way of doing it. He used the 72 method, but instead of rolling 6 starts you only roll for 5 of them. You then subtract the total of them from 72 to get the 6th stat. The only caveat is that you can’t have a stat higher than a 16 or lower than an 8. He had some ways of dealing with outliers. You should check it out😁
He also said if it’s the right group you can let them divide the 72 in any way they wanted.
Yeah I use a version of this one too. It means that strong characters have a major weakness and weak characters have a major strength. I do think that there could be some problems with it tho if you just get a bunch of 12s.
This is my favorite method as well. You can mess with the final total as well to influence the overall strength of the characters. I use a lower total in my game, but the principle remains.
The math in 5e is so tight that when our group allowed rolling it was spectacularly unbalancing. Just a couple of extra points make a huge difference. Now it's point buy or standard array only.
I agree, but my DM loves rolling. Thankfully, he's always allowed individuals to switch to point buy if their rolls sucked
@@crownlexicon5225 as long as you're all having fun. In our case it was rolls that were better than point buy that were problematic.
@cory849 my problem was I would roll under.
Yeah, there's the risk of people rolling better (like I did this time) but it helps lessen the difference
I don't see how that could be the case. The DM can adjust for more or less powerful characters through encounter design, just like playing with a more or less min maxed or power gamer group.
@Michael Lopate the issue is when one player is drastically stronger or weaker than the others. If all are strong, or all are weak, sure, but if you have one weak and the rest strong, you cant balance for that
I feel like the weirdo here, but I really like the Standard Point Array. I like the feeling of a well-rounded character, and that's what the Standard Point Array gives me.
Since the standard array is worth 27 points with point buy, you can choose that array even using the point buy method if it's preferred for you.
Same
Same I almost always end up with standard array when using point buy. I have a hard time with dump stats except strength on casters.
Depends on the character, the more MAD the more I gravitate towards 15x3/8x3. Some classes like rogues really only *need* dex and con while for example a paladin wants high Str/dex, con and cha to be effective.
I like rolling stats but hate playing with them. Every single time I tried there has been at least one player with an average around my highest. My character might be ok but they're in a party with a couple of demigods who effortlessly outshine mine at every single thing. Absolute worst was a system where your starting stats determined your maximum and how many skill points you got per level.
An alternative to that which I like is that the party as a whole rolls one set of ability scores and everyone in the party uses those, placing them wherever they want. It ensures a fair and balanced party but depending on the campaign you might all be heros, or flunkies.
@@mogalixir This was way worse than that. Instead of 1-20 stats were 1-100 and the modifier wasn't linear but a curve so going from 50 to 80 had less impact than going from 95 to 100. Only extreme stats mattered.
It had 10 stats in total 5 of which were designated development stats (no, you didn't get to chose which 5). You added those up and divided by 5 and that was how many points you got each level. Now, those points did EVERYTHING. If you wanted hit points, languages, lore, weapons, athletics, spells, mana, etc you had to pay to raise them with your points.
Lower stats meant significantly lower stat bonuses on top of getting fewer points to spend.
@@poilboiler You're talking about Rolemaster or Merp Aren't you :D
@@margusgrenzmann3977 Rolemaster yep. It works ok if you don't roll but it really screams out for some light houseruling to make it less silly.
Yup, I really liked the character generation in that otherwise but the stat distribution was a bit wacky.
I think we rolled 11 scores and you could flip the tens and ones of the throws. Still ended with better scores than my friend and it caused some friction on occasion.
My personal favorite way to generate stats is 4d6 drop lowest - BUT, everyone at the table does it, and any array generated can be selected by anyone any number of times. That way, no player character has a higher base stat total than any other (unless they want to be), but there is a more interesting variety of stats available than PB or SA.
That actually sounds very fun!
This way, if someone rolls some amazing stats, there is no jealousy or feelings of inadequacy. Instead, everyone can be just as happy together about the result.
And if that would make the party OP, it's also much nicer to agree to collectively take the next best stat block. In contrast, needing to pressure a single player, who had amazing luck, to give up their stats for the sake of party balance could easily cause some bad blood.
That's great!
This is literally how I did stats in the game i started a few weeks back.
3 up 3 down method:
A player rolls 3 dice and then the magic happens!
Roll a 1d6, 1d8, and 1d10
Your stats are as follows
10+1d6
15-1d6
10+1d8
15-1d8
8+1d10
17-1d10
Total: 75
The numbers chosen are pretty arbitrary, so feel free to tweak them to your own needs. The total will ALWAYS add up to the total of the numbers you choose since the dice are both added and subtracted.
!3u3d command on Treantmonk's Discord :)
The thing I like about this method is that it keeps everything pretty fair - all party members are on even playing field at the start of the campaign.
Simple method is roll 3d8. half your starting stats are 7 + rolled D8 and the other are 16- d8. You are using the same d8 for both adding and subtracting so your scores are balanced high/low. Gives you same range as point buy (8-15).
For a slightly higher roll option, roll 6d6 and put the numbers into pairs. Half your scores are 6+2d6 and the other are 20-2d6. Gives you a slightly higher range than point buy (avg 13 vs 12.5) but again, your stats are fair. no bad luck to give you an awful experience. If you roll all 1's, you get 8's and 18, same as all 6's. at worst if you pair the dice yourself, you end with 3x 14 and 3x 12's - a pretty well rounded character.
YES!! The Holy Grail playing card method! I've been using this for the past year, and plan to allow my players to use this or standard array in my next game.
Thanks for your input Treantmonk! I've never heard of the "card array", but I really like it! As a DM I would allow players to arrange the cards however they want, mostly because I enjoy DMing for characters with profound strengths and weaknesses, while still allowing players to customize their scores in a balanced manner.
For more varied results while disregarding luck, you really can expand the point buy table in any direction for as long as you like.
You could take something like this as a template:
Score Cost
1 -16
2 -12
3 -9
4 -6
5 -4
6 -2
7 -1
8 0
9 1
10 2
11 3
12 4
13 5
14 7
15 9
16 12
17 15
18 19
19 23
20 28
(27 Points can be assigned still)
And then just choose the cutoff points you're comfortable with.
I think the issue is that optimisation oriented players will almost always minmax as much as you allow them to, meaning you're creating the illusion of choice when they're just going to maximise their dependant stats and dump their dump stats harder
@@joshuawinestock9998 That is true, and an issue with Point Buy in general.
The wider apart the cutoff points, the higher the potential for min-maxing.
But this is a flaw in any system that lets you generate your scores yourself.
To prevent optimized choices, you would have to prevent choices in general,
which does not sound very fun either
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 It's true there's no perfect system. I think that's why I like some kind of lenient random system, with insurance against terrible rolls, so you have variety but also a level of "work with the tools you are given", circumstances stimulating creativity. And I mean you always get the choice of where to allocate the stats.
I guess all I was saying is that raising the point buy cap will likely not create more varied results, just more acute minmaxing
The problem is that it’s very hard to understand a score less than 8, unless you specifically work with that population. If you *do* work with that population, it’s unlikely you’ll want to play them as a heroic character. True dump stats (7 or less) in any category makes for an unheroic character.
@@michaelwinter742 I dunno man, I reckon you can have great high fantasy stories about frail wizards with 5 strength or grinning fighters with 6 intelligence
I've seen a lot of your videos (and enjoyed many of them) and even if I don't build a character like you, I still get insight to the strengths of many characters options, choices, and features. You have many melee builds, but I believe you only have one that uses a shield with a spear. (glory paladin from theros). Could you shed some light on the strengths a sword and board build can have even if its not as optimal as GWM builds?
Sword and board is unfortunately really hard to make work. I'll take a look and see if I can come up with something viable.
I think he made a sword and board eldritch knight too.
Unless your game is full of magic items, then you kinda need homebrew to make a S&B character decent. Unless you are going something like max AC artificer.
I’ve been toying with the idea of a 2 paladin x swords bard that takes shield master and uses expertise in athletics for shoving and knocking enemies prone. Tbh though, I’m toying with that idea as a backup character in a game where I’d have 18,18,16,14,14,10 to play with as stats before racial modifiers so I wouldn’t be as worried about ASI increases as if I were doing pointbuy.
Spear+shield and dueling fighting style and polearm master is a good combo. (Variant Human)
1D6+2+S
a bonus 1d4+2+S
and a reaction 1D6+2+S
Longsword+shield with dueling only nets you a single attack 1D8+2+S which does kind of suck... But usually a better combo that +1AC
I prefer the +1AC on GWM toons as a 17 is much better than a 16 at lower levels.
I really like the card method! Although it is problematic for those of us that play online, but not impossible.
If you want to simulate the card method online, just line up the numbers: 2,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6 and roll a d18, take out your number, then roll a d17 with the remainder, take that number out, roll a d16 and take out that result; and those three numbers are your first set of three cards. Repeat the process for the other 15 numbers to get your other 5 sets of 3 cards.
I generally use one of three methods.
1. 'Everyone is a hero'.
4D6, reroll any 1s, drop lowest after no 1s left.
Generally nets average ability scores of about 13. (Instead of 11.5) and much more likely to have 18s and very rare to have really low stats, 6 being your lowest now.
2. 'Your choice' - roll 4D6 drop lowest and create TWO arrays... Now choose which array you want.
Generally involves people choosing between a boring, but better array or one with more 'spikes'.
3. Roll, but with Backup (most common)
Just roll 4D6 drop lowest but if you want can alwaya just default to the standard array.
So you can always build out your character in pencil before the session using the atandard array and when you roll you are simply aiming to improve.
And finally, not a rolling method of sorts but I often ask and allow players to REDUCE a stat on purpose, if they want. For 'roleplaying purposes' say dropping an int to 6, or a strength to 6 etc.
I really like this method!
I've moved to Point-Buy as well (though I give some bonus numbers at the end), and I realized that almost everyone ends up with pretty much the same stats, because "14+2 Racial" is obvious for the main stat, and 14 Con, and so on, and so forth...
This keeps some extra variety in there, as well a tad of flexibility, and the confirmation that everyone will have the same total points :)
To me this actually suggest how limiting the stats themselves might be in creating interesting characters (assuming all players have roughly equal stat totals just different allocations), such that you "always" need one power stat, one decent CON stat, and then a bunch of low variance stuff to fill out the rest cuz yes they're "easy" to dump-stat but it also means that they don't bring much meaning to your character. In a potentially perfect world all stats would be asymmetrically balanced really well against one another such that both casual players and veteran players can roll the dice with absolutely no fear cuz they know they can find value out of any stat, but maybe that also creates characters which all feel same-y. idk what the answer is but after rolling a handful of characters for one/two/three shots and a few short campaigns i feel like all characters either play the same or are too strong/too weak to enjoy
D&D is pretty much the most flawed character creation system I know. Since the proficiency bonus is bound, there's literally no way to make up for bad stats using skill. Stats don't have to be perfectly equal in a good system, but instead one should be able to easily reach a softcap (or well into diminishing returns) even with bad stats - the stat itself would mostly be useful if you want to be good at ALL aspects of said stat.
The design decision to have primary stats for every class was flawed IMHO. If every class has use for all stats then there are some real design decisions. For example, if Dex was used to hit and Str for damage then all martials would have a interest in both. In 3e, the Combat Expertise feat tree fed off of Intelligence. A fighter using that tree could be very different than one that concentrated on maxing Strength and using a great axe.
If you are lucky enough to have a session zero then the character creation becomes a framing device for a campaign. A card based ability score generation reminds me of dead lands, so really any western or gambler story could really benefit from this. I will try it in my next classless level zero character funnel, it seems faster than dice too. Thanks Chris.
Posting it here again because I think I've missed the comment window last time:
Don't know if that's the place to make this comment but, here's an idea for a couple of videos: "build rescue". How to optimize builds for a campaign that would go up to X lvl if my character already is at lvl Y, and I may have picked sub-optimal race/stats? How to cut the losses or even perhaps find something reasonable?
Maybe picking some random character sheets sent by viewers and talking options for the next lvl ups.
This system blew my mind away! Thank you for sharing, I will use this from now on.
In my groups we normally have 5 players.
So what we do is, everyone, including me the DM, rolls 4d6, drop the lowest once. We then have 6 stats, seeing as there has been 6 rolls. Everyone then uses those 6 rolls as their base and if a score is under 15 they can adjust it as per point buy costs, but pay that cost by taking away from another state, to a minimum of 8.
Highly customizable, highly random, but everyone is the same.
That "cards" is an interesting system, and seems flexible (so it is not all luck, can be correcting) and fair, as all have about the same pool. It is hard to do in online games, especially with people we don't know.
One thing my main group did with the Standard Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) stats was to shift all Standard Arrays to they were all odd numbers, so our array is now 15, 15, 13, 11, 11, 9. This means many Racial +1 move an ability score to the next meaningful slot at character start, and this also applies to all 4th level (etc) when considering AS improvements. Thus, at 4th level, players are guaranteed that getting a +1 to many AS will mean something right away (a +1 to that score's effects).
That had an interesting effect: players were a bit less likely to choose a Feats at 4th, 8th, 12th because they saw immediate rewards. And, some still wanted to 4d6 roll them anyway.
I have the same problems with random ability scores as you, but I still enjoy rolling them. This seems like the best of both worlds.
When starting a new party, I do an auction. I determine the number of ability scores to be generated by multiplying the number of PCs by 6. Then I roll that number of ability scores, in secret, using 4d6 best three. I put each result on an index card and then write down some perks on other index cards to add to the deck. Those could be unpopular feats, or magic items, or PC features not commonly covered by the rules, or an ally ... anything. I also include a couple drawback cards, like a movement penalty, an enemy, or a mystery drawback (which could be a curse). Then, we shuffle the cards and people get to bid on them with us rotating through who makes the starting bid. For the drawback cards, the failure to raise the bid means you get the card.
That card system seems pretty good.
I'm a bit looser with optimised play as I really enjoy roleplay and teamplay, so I'm usually happy to have a dumptruck of a dump stat, as it opens up a vulnerability for your teammates to cover, and gives you some dynamics to roleplay around. Some examples are my -3 Charisma ranger with an unintelligible accent, and a -3 Strength Warlock who calls for help from a friend (or his patron) to open a jar of pickles
I think a modified point buy is the best option. The one I came up with was made before Tasha's, which solves some of the same issues I was trying to solve. I would totally be open to other modifications, but this is the best I could come up with. I think that point buy is by far the fairest method. Even more fair than Standard Array because some characters rely on having 3 good stats more than others, so some classes like Monks and Paladins have a harder time with Standard Array.
The following changes are made to the Point Buy Method presented in the PHB -
- You have 33 points to start instead of 27
- The "Starting Score" (i.e. investing 0 points) is 7 instead of 8
- All point costs are increased by 1 (i.e. an 8 now costs 1 point and a 15 now costs 10 points)
- You can buy a 16 for 12 points
- (Optional) Everyone gets a free feat at 1st level. Variant Human and Custom Lineage are banned.
- (Optional) After all modifiers are applied, no one can have an ability score higher than 17.
For our current Strahd campaign, I got the four players to choose then use a way of rolling once each, they got 11, 11, 11 and 14. I then added an 8 and a 13.
This was there own Standard Array.
As part of their solo 0.5 lead in to Session 1 they all gained a +1.
Worked out nicely.
An interesting alternate method I ran into on one campaign was Primary Stat Priority. Primary Stats are the ones that are naturally given saving throw proficiency by a class. After rolling stats by any method, you could take add 1 to a primary stat by subtracting 2 from a non-primary stat. I believe the DM placed a lower bound of 6 and you couldn't do a partial trade (subtract 1 from 2 stats).
Alternate idea for the card thing (I think it's quite neat as it is).
For new players just use the system described here, I think it should work out perfectly.
For experienced players, that come to the table perhaps with more set ideas of what they want to play and how to achieve that I would make the same deck of 18 cards you showed here (3*2,4*3,4*4,4*5,3*6) but take apart 6 cards (2,3,4,4,5,6) then ask them to shuffle and deal 6 groups of 2 cards. Then, they can choose from the pool of left apart cards one card to add to each of their dealt stats. This lets the players have more of a say in their final stats, while preserving some randomness and also making sure every PC ends up with the same sum of ability scores (in this case 72 but could be easily increased or decreased as you see fit with the distribution of cards. I'd personally use 74, which is the rough average total for 6 rolls of 4d6 drop lowest and see where it takes us)
This method will likely end up with more 18s and 6s than full random, but in no way should mean that every PC will have an 18 (you'd have to deal the only two 6s you have in the deck in the same stat, something that should not happen too often)
I really like this method and will probably use for my next new campaign (might be a while).
For our next campaign we have split into pairs and the DM has rolled an array of 12 abilities scores (using 4d6 d1) for us to allocate out as we see fit.
Worst case scenario people just take the best stat in a round robin style format, in which case it's basically the same as the usual /r 6 4d6 d1, but it allows for pairs to work together to facilitate MAD characters with a nice distribution of stats whilst allowing the SAD bards to snatch a juicy 18 and a 14 or so for their con.
For something like AL or solo players joining tables I can see this not being viable, but for a long term group I thought this was a really nice touch and thought I'd share it on here.
Big preference for point buy, but in a game we recently tried a modified BINGO method; the normal BINGO method says two players can't use the same set, and we got rid of that. (BINGO creates a grid of 6 sets of rolled stats in order, then you can choose any column, row, or diagonal)
I still like point buy the best- sometimes with more points, lower minimums, higher maximums etc; but even if rolls decide everything else, I want character creation to be fair.
Treantmonk's method is interesting and I'll consider it when I run my next campaign!
My personal favourite is for the whole party to roll an array together. If there's six players, they roll an AS each, if there's more or less, they have to figure it out amongst themselves. It's random, which is fun, it is balanced between the team, which is good, and you don't get the urge to have your character die so you can roll better ability scores. A win all around!
I've been playing since 2e and it took way too long for me to realize that every rolling rules variation is evaluated against whether or not it ends up with stats that are close to the standard array. The more it does so, the more "fair" it seems to be judged by folks. If you want random, take your array of choice, then roll a d6 to see which stat gets the highest number (strength = 1, ..., charisma = 6) and keep rolling until you've got the array values assigned. There are fairly trivial ways to make it faster as you get to the last 3 slots and keep it random.
Since my table rolls dice for stats, I recently made a calc sheet to know the likelihood of each result, and I was surprised to see that it's unlikely to get unusable stats. For example, getting 15 or above in 3 stats is twice as likely (14 %) as getting 3 stats with negative modifiers (7 %), and the average roll is better than what you'd get with point buy (not counting the fact that the DM is likely to let you reroll if you end up with extremely bad stats).
Although I'm not surprised that you dislike character stats involving luck, considering how you tend to like spells that provide little randomness; I think that, in the case of rolling stats, the odds are quite in your favour.
I have DMed two long term campaigns. I used standard array last campaign and then used 4d6 method, allowing them to reroll the whole set if they didn’t like it, if they didn’t like their reroll they could use standard array. This kept an element of luck and some characters are slightly stronger, but it stopped any character being weak. I think I’ll probably do the dungeon dudes “heroic” standard array, which is slightly buffered be normal. I like that the stats are more normalised with standard array,. It might mean more predictable level ones, but by inflating it slightly, I think you end up leaving people open to take more interesting feats or buff up a less traditional stat
I like to roll a standard array for my games. We roll the stats as a group then everyone uses that same array.
my favorite method is to have every player at the table roll an array, and let them all choose from any of the arrays. That way, even if one or two players got unlucky, there was bound to be someone who got something good. If multiple people got good arrays, then it let the players choose from, say, "one 18 and a few mediocre stats" or "two 16s and one 8 and some middling stats", etc. etc. That way, no one gets left behind because of bad luck, but we keep the fun of rolling for stats
A mix between the roll 4, drop 1 method and the point buy method:
Roll 24d6, get rid of the lowest 6. Arrange the numbers in any order you like.
Pros: leads to statistically less variable results between players and the customisability of point buy.
Con: Almost always guarantees an 18 though so only do it if you are okay with powerful main stats.
I think a lot of people don't think ahead when choosing an ability score method. Most people like randomness, but don't want bad luck. What these people usually want is either higher ability scores than you can normally get, or a mixture of some low low numbers and high high numbers. As you sort of mentioned, randomness isn't good for this, since while on average you'll probably get what you want, it isn't consistent.
My favourite is still point buy, but personally I do see the value in the possibility of a low low score and a high high score.
One thing I've thought of as a concept is using scribes wizard to avoid being in combat and using the subclass features to fire spells from, then having a super high intelligence but a con of 3 (from a 4d6 drop lowest all 1s roll), so you never have more than 2hp by taking average hp. The character could die super easily and so has to play extra carefully.
Another thing I thought of as a concept was a character that has a 20 in every stat, but has a kind of racial detriment that means they always have "bad luck" effects, and see how well they do. Things like having disadvantage in all rolls, hitting allies with rolled 1s on attacks or spells backfiring, to see how far stats can best luck.
Overall I think rolling stats can be fun for one off characters, but for longer campaigns which is my preference I'd prefer to use point buy. In those cases I'd prefer some other point buy rules, perhaps have a cost to take feats, reduce the minimum stat and maximum stat so you can choose more varied stats.
I think if you want higher stats than is normally allowed there should either be a cost to it or you should talk with your dm about questing for magic items that can solve that character building issue, such as gauntlets of Ogre power to help with the soradin build you just made a video on.
I like your method. If we're going random, I think it could be interesting to lock the cards to a particular ability scores when being drawn. Some of the most interesting stuff I've made came from taking something, like high Charisma and high Wisdom, and developing a build around that.
You'd need some allowance for Constitution though. Maybe let it be swapped for any other stat? I think that would work.
I usually dislike randomness in character creation, but this method is surprisingly consistent.
One thing that 5E dice roll generation doesn’t have that earlier editions did is the Hard Reroll rule. No ability score above 13? A sum of ability mods less than or equal to +1? Chuck your scores in the bin and try again.
It definitely helps with Dice Roll Stat Gen.
As an aside - Chris, I 115% respect and understand your view about the inherent issues with rolled stats, but for me, there’s something deeply addictive about the process. Maybe you get that elusive 18 to start, stick it in your primary casting stat, and have a maxed INT/WIS/CHA at Level 1.
Or maybe you’re like a guy I used to play 3.5 with - roll four 1s on your 4d6, refuse the GM’s offer of a free reroll, stick that 3 into INT, pick a race with an INT penalty (because RAW you couldn’t have a PC with an INT less than 3) and RP the hell out of being *actually* as dumb as a bag of rocks.
My firends and I for a couple of years have used the Dungeon Dudes' improved array of 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, 8. Allows for MAD classes like Ranger and Paladin to be more effective, means easier to pick feats over ASI, and just leads to feeling more powerful which in turn means combats can be a little meatier. Also means most characters can have something they're pretty good at even if they're SAD, and now Con doesn't always need to be the secondary stat of everyone as it can easily be 14 and a solid tertiary.
i'm personally a big fan of the 4d6 method, with the caveat that there is only one set of rolls, made by the table in turn at session 0, from which set every player can take their ability scores and put them wherever they like
I've been using something I call the Heroic Array since the Darksun Box set. 12,13,14,15,16,17 It puts all the chars on the same playing field plus they all get to feel like a badass. I also use the same rolling rules for any Custom Chars/foils I build for them so it keeps the Bad guys on the same playing field
I really like this system and have used similar 'higher score' systems. If the players are supposed to truly be HEROES, then I like to let them be HEROIC. Like comparing 'street level' Marvel heroes (Daredevil, Black Widow, Hawkeye) compared to 'normal people,' and we avoid getting any heroes like Thor while the players still get to feel like they really have impact on events. And, of course, the heroes' nemeses also get a similar boost. I prefer this setting more than just "Joe Shmoe putting down his rake for a sword" hero.
Wow, what an ingenious idea. I may even use it, perhaps with a slightly different deck.
Eh, even having a deck of 24 cards, aces through sixes, and doing "draw four, drop the lowest" would greatly increase fairness compared to the usual rolling method
I like this method, because you can make tweaks to the deck to account for more or less powerful characters. By replacing one of the 2s or 3s with a fourth 6, you can get more powerful characters; or you could go the other way for a lower powered game.
we've used point buy since the start at our table regardless of whoever DMs. i agree with you that i don't like ability score generation that involves luck or that isn't fair for all players.
what we've adjusted with the point buy system is to just increase the points a bit like having 29, 31 or 33 points to start.
i do like the method you shared though as i like playing cards. i'd probably just suggest a slight tweak and replace one 3 with 1 6. so it becomes:
3 2's
3 3's
4 4's
4 5's
4 6's
Yeah ability scores are way too important to have them randomly determined. And since they're determined upfront as your first act of making the character, basically it ends up giving you a bitter taste in your mouth for a character right at the start. So naturally you just try to get that character killed, because that's the best way to get a reroll. Going to point buy prevents a lot of monster-assisted suicides.
We have two methods of ability score generation. Option 1 has more standard stats. Option 2 seeks to give the characters higher stats overall and more similar stats.
Option 1:
Roll the standard 4d6x6 random generation. Now to alleviate terrible luck these conditions either force or allow a re-roll:
1. 2 stats below 10 and no stat 14 or above re-roll.
2. 3 stats below 10 you may re-roll.
Now before you calculate the final maximum for each 4 dice you are allowed to swap two dice between ability scores. That means if you have (4,6,3,2) and (6, 5, 1, 1) you could get (6,5,6,1=17) and (4,1,3,2=9).
Option 2:
Instead roll 4d6x7 and pick the top 6 sets from the 7. The condition for re-rolls here can be the same as above or more strict so characters all have good stats.
1. Re-roll if your top 6 stats are less than point buy 27 (extrapolating above and below 15/8)
You still get to swap one dice but now you can steal a dice from the 7th set and discard the resulting low stat.
The re-roll conditions ensure that you won't be useless and you should at least be able to have 1 stat you can do something with. Often that 14 can turn into a 15 or 16 with a swap. The swaps themselves require some thought. Do you go for 2 high stats, or one really high stat, or make a low roll average. I think it adds a fun step for optimization during character creation which for those who like random rolls.
I use a slightly different 24d6 dice method, where you drop the 2 highest and 4 lowest. It does have some luck of course, as you say, but what I've found is that people's overall spread of stats will be much closer than other rolling methods. It's basically never gonna happen that one person got 3 18s and another person got nothing above a 14 or something like that. So, while it seems like a fairly luck based method, I think the real spread of stats you get is pretty solid and not gonna get messed up too much, so I like the little bit of luck it does impart. I mean, I do think your way with the cards is good, but you still can't get lower than a 6 as your lowest stat, so I think I do still prefer the slightly random 24d6 for that.
We've done a very different method of rolling, but I'd only recommend it if your dm is good at challenging your party regardless of how powerful they are. We all roll(method doesn't matter), and everyone takes the highest array rolled.
I have been using a powered standard array of 16-15-13-12-10-8 with great results. Another idea I'm considering is a group roll, where every player rolls 4d6 drop lowest one time and the party share the rolls, that way you have both luck and an even group.
One video idea, piggybacking with this video idea (and what I thought what was about this video) is: what about some type of characters for an unlucky player? Like, "okay, i rolled really badly, what can I do to make it work reasonably well", from a strictly mechanical POV. It would be a cool concept of a video.
I love this generation method! I always hate going to the table and somehow a character made by another PC doesn’t have an ability below 16. Like how it’s a perfect balance between luck and point buy for balance!!!
This is a really neat stat generation method. I remember a little while back when people on reddit were abuzz with the various ways that their table generates stats, and they're all rather convoluted and mostly meant to assure at least a mediocre stat arrangement. This one just seems much more elegant and equitable, which I think are two highly desirable traits for a method.
Best method i have seen saw all players roll for stats but rather then you being stuck with your low roll you could instead take the roll of another player at the table. This method insures that one player doesn't get an awesome roll while another gets a low roll as it equalizes the players at the table. This does not mean everyone is forced too take the same players rolls.
I really like the method with the cards!
That little bit of interactivity goes a long way to help players with bad luck against standing helplessly before their results.
This can really turn a bad spread around!
I watched one from nerd immersion and it was the tic tac toe method roll 3 d 6 3 times and place them in any order you wish in 3x3 blocks. Then chose a row top to bottom or side to side or diagonal. Add them together and that's your character. You have 8 choices choose 6.
Great video. The other random ability score generation methods I can get on board with are where the group shares the luck of the ability scores between themselves. I.e. roll all the scores and then use a fair way to distribute the numbers between everyone. This way the power gap between players is at least concensual, as power gap is the biggest problem of random ability scores in my opinion 🙂
I feel like it'd be fun to add bonus objectives like 3 of a kind or flushes granting an extra +1 or a feat to give players something to think about when they don't flip poorly.
While I generally use point buy, I really like your method. Thinking about it, I like Delilah's method too, but what I would do as a DM is roll 22d6, drop 4, and then say that all players use the same pool of dice when building their characters. That way, they each have a substantial amount of customizability, but no one character will be inherently stronger than another. If the overall pool happens to be stronger or weaker than average, then the DM can adjust the campaign to compensate, and this will be fine since all characters will be equally above or below average.
I honestly thought the card method was going to be 'put the cards in piles of three to choose your own stats'.
Similar to other comments, I love rolling stats. I hate it when everyone is disparate and one PC is just 'better' at nearly everything. I'm a fan of several methods, of which I'll note a couple of below. The ethos of methods I like boil down to a few things:
1 - Balance. Give the party alike pools, avoiding individual excellency or underachievers
2 - Fun. Generating stats should not be an inhibitor to gameplay, or raise potential issues during the game
3 - Simple. As long as how the numbers are generated is easy to understand, then it works fine.
Obviously some players will find certain aspects appealing that others don't... That is up to a GM to manage and pick what will work for everyone at their table.
Two methods I like:
Bingo - Roll a grid of stats and then the DM and Party agree on which lines to use. I've used a 6x6 grid with many different lines, and a 3x3 where you pick 2 lines of 3.
This can be limited within a total point boundary (say 70-80 totals only), or can be made 'all the same', or 'all different' for the lines selected.
Ultimately there are usually enough options that you can make it work for everyone.
Pick your stats - Give players a point cap and/or a starting stat cap, then just let them pick what they want.
Rolling is fun but getting the numbers you want where you want them means more fun later. Point buy does a good enough job but sometime you want something with a bit more oomph.
One method that should produce numbers similar to point buy:
Roll 5d8.
Choose 2 of them. For each of those you get one ability score that is 7 + the result and one ability score that is 16 - the result.
Choose another of the d8s. Your next ability score is 7 + the result.
Choose one of the final two d8s. Your last ability score is 16 - the result.
We keep it pretty simple at our table, 4d6 drop the lowest as normal, if the total of all your stats is below 70 you can roll again. If you get above 70 but don't like the stats, you can use point buy.
I like rolling, but the order of the roll is the order on the sheet. It’s like you’re being born!
Nerd immersion had shared a rolling method that was 2d6 +6. I like this method because it prevents the very swingy lower numbers. It keeps your lowest possible stat to an 8 like in point buy, avoiding you having anything from a 3-7. I always use point buy but I'd enjoy that rolling method to experiment with
I think I'd really dislike that method. First of all, it will average to better than point buy (averages to 13, slightly better than point buy, and can get numbers significantly better than what you can get via point buy). But also, the main reason I would want random generation would be to be able to have stats lower than 8. It's kind of boring to always have characters who can be, at worst, slightly below average in something.
Loved the random cards method, think i'll use it from now on
I've been using a roll method which is guaranteed that all players get equeal stats.
You only roll 3 dice. A d6 d8 and d10
And you get your scores by adding the rolled result to the formula:
10+d6
15-d6
10+d8
15-d8
8+d10
17-d10
This always results in an array of 75 points, which is slightly above standard array.
Even if you roll all 1 or all max you will still get rather interesting stats.
Although I like the card variant pretty well. Should try it out next time.
Collective rolling, my party of five players and the dm each rolled 4d6 drop the lowest once each and we used those results for all our characters. It does nothing about the randomness of the stats but it does address the inequality issue of stat rolling that I’ve found to be more of an issue at standard tables
I like making the stat roll a part of character creation.
I sit down with the player and talk about what their character is like and what qualities they have and then we start at average and roll a die or two to add to the good qualities and maybe take a point or two off the bad qualities until it looks right, about where everyone else is.
Makes both processes better. Ensures synergy. Saves time.
~
The cards remind me of my favorite way to play Catan. A stack of 36 cards, one with each of the pairs of dice results on 2d6. Shuffle, burn 5 off the top of the deck, then play through. When you're done, reshuffle and burn a new 5. It's nice in the sense that you'll hew a lot closer to the proper 2d6 bell curve, and even the 2 and the 12 will show up sometimes, but that burn 5 prevents easy counting, and makes it so it isn't quite as strictly every result happening.
We do it in two ways. Usually, dm rolls 4 dice 7 times, drop lowest die each roll, then remove 1 roll depending on score concentration. Thats the character scores for all players. Then they pick and choose where they place them. If we don't wanna do this, we just pick from predetermined stats, though we have different numbers we pick from; 17,15,13,11,10,8.
Hi, thanks for this new method of stat generation i did not know of.
My favorite method is the original Gary Gygax method 3d6 for all stats in a specific order (non interchangeable) it's really funny playing a character so much grounded in reality that actually struggle to survive the most basic thing...
Or you know, you can roll four sixteens and two eighteens and be a f****ng god...
Yes I'm talking about you Thomas, I know you watch this channel as well
I personally like the 4 dice method. Unless you really roll badly you are certain to get a couple scores to place in your primary stats. Plus the racial adjustments will help as well. With the buying stats you get a bunch of cookie cutter characters, plus a couple of low stats can add some fun to the game. A party of Super Heroes gets kind of boring after a while.
people who roll stats say they want randomness but i think they just want an 18 before modifiers
and to be fair i also want an 18 tbh thats kind of awesome, i can start with a 20 in a stat at level 1: even a 16 or a 17 is really good too since 15 is the highest point buy can give me
Stats guy here. 22d6 will typically give you something similar to a normal distribution. Dropping 4d6 will cut off the lower tail, so you're left with mostly decent rolls and then leave the big outliers there. So.... that's gonna create some powerful characters at level 1.
Thanks to you i now have a super cool sugestion to show my dnd group!
Another video Topic sugestion:
What do you think of the long rest alternatives like gritty realism and such... Do you like them ? Do they make some classes way stronger than others ?
Hope you like the sugestion , and sry for any grammar mistake, I ' m not a Native speaker :)
P.s - i love your dnd videos , specially your deep dives in diferent aspects of our favourite table top role playing game. Keep the good work pal 👍
I just played with some cards to try this and I like this system. I did like this system. I did run into a situation where I got a bunch of 12s.
I would just add you get one redeal of the carts but if you do it you can't go back to the old set.
Helps if someone runs into the all 12 situation but won't be helpful to everyone because you could get worse luck the 2nd time.
One thing I never see people mention when discussing attribute scores online is how by RAW they also affect RP. This is probably because the level of RP in games varies wildly from table to table but even for comparatively low RP games I think it’s something people should consider. A character who is good at everything may be somewhat fun to play during combat, but a character who is good at everything is boring from an RP perspective because there is no dramatics. This is also true, at least in my experience, for a character who is average at everything and one that is bad at everything. For this reason I vastly prefer point buy or standard array over rolled as it leads to more mechanically interesting characters in all aspects of the game. Obviously not everyone is playing D&D for the same reasons, which more than anything is a testament to how well designed the game is, but at least for me, D&D is about telling a story with my friends, and I’ve found the best stories are told when the characters have varied skill sets and varied flaws. Rolling stats is creating a scenario where more often than not, players might be missing this experience. Just my two cents.
I had 1 DM that had us roll 4 sets of stats, but if you rolled a stat number 3 times in 1 set, that that becomes the max of any stat in that set( rolling 3 12's, 2 18's and a 10 give you a 10 and 5 12's in that set!
In 5E, i tend to roll a 6 for each character i make with 4d6-lowest! I had a Halfling Diviner that ended up with a 6 and 3 14's with a 10 and 13 and that was with racial bonuses!
An interesting point buy I've seen is from Starfinder. All scores are purchased 1:1 (though I think this could be improved, although it does follow the KISS rule) and cannot be increased past 18. You add your racial bonuses before purchasing the increased stats.
We do the 4D6 but we roll the six stats twice. Pick the better round, but no mix and matching. We also allow that, if a character concept needs to further rearrange scores, we can steal points from other stats to do so. It helps realize character design and soften the randomness, and I think we all fairly happy w it, but it is a generous method that might not work for everyone.
My thinking is to err on the side of generosity because it sucks to play a character w terrible stats. The dice will be sure to fuck us over later anyway ha.
Most OP rolling system any of my groups have ever used was 4d6, reroll 1s and 2s, drop the lowest, and your lowest total becomes an 18.
My favorite random methods are 4d6 and 2d6+6. 4d6 is classic. 2d6+6 is a lot lower variation (hardcapped between 8 and 18).
Once you roll lots of dice and start arranging them... like... why roll? Just do point buy and maybe up the points and maybe come up with values for 16s and even 17s in point buy. As I see it, there's two purposes for random stats: first is to maybe get an 18. Second is to have idiosyncratic characters. Rolling a large pile of dice and organizing them as you like can get you the 18s, but it's functionally the same as a point buy but better. At which point, rolling seems pointless.
To that end, I'm also a roll-and-preserve order player. My standard is what I call *"The Wheel."* I'll roll 4d6 seven times, keeping the order. I'll delete one score, and then assign Strength to one, doesn't have to be the first one, then loop around to the start. To be clear, this isn't a method for creating optimum characters. It's a way to roll some dice and jot in the margins of a notebook while bored in the laundromat or something.
Example roll: 15, 11, 10, 14, 13, 17, 7. You probably want to delete the 7. You've got this sequence of two adjacent low scores (11, 10), two solid middle scores (14, 13), and two high scores (17, 15). You'll do best with a character who wants their best two stats right next to each other. If you wanted a Strength user with the 17 in strength, you get an impressive 15 dex, but a pathetic 11 con. High Int looks like the best use of these scores to me. 10 Str, 14 Dex, 13 Con, 17 Int, 15 Wis, 11 Cha. That'd be a great Artificer or Wizard, with capped Medium armor to start. Probably can't make a decent Monk, since a monk needs Great - Good - Dump - Great in sequence. You can do a nice 17 dex, 15 Con, but then your Int and Wis are both trash. Maybe good for a Swashbucker Rogue or a Dex Paladin, either of whom can use the 14 Cha, but not a Monk. So there's going to be a lot of ways to build any particular set of rolls, but by preserving the adjacencies of the dice, you might get stuff that's a bit different than you would if going for a point buy or standard array.
Again, not optimum for table play, but probably as much fun as you can get for thought experiments.
One other possible wrinkle: roll the 4d6 in 7 pairs. As you create your character, the opposite number in the pair becomes an associated NPC. A friend, a mentor, someone you need to protect, a mostly friendly rival, a deadly enemy. Doesn't matter what, except as a spur to the imagination.
I've done a system where I made 10 different stat blocks, all being an arrangement of stats that were impossible with point buy and went to some care to make them all unusual and mostly balanced compared to eachother (no exact science but a lot of revision and comparison and roughly made theoretical characters comparing them).
Then on session zero the 3 players, as a group, draw 5 stat blocks and choose the ones they each wanted with some consultation amongst themselves.
My personal favorite for some time now has been 2D6+6. I do like some luck involved in ability score generation, but roll 4D6 drop the lowest is a bit too erratic for me. Getting a score of 4 or 5 feels awful, even in a dump stat. 2D6+6 has less luck involved (still some tho!), has a minimum of 8, maximum of 18, average of 12.5 and is very simple to explain to newcomers. This card method is also interesting and may want to try it out in the future!
I really wish the official 4d6 method said "drop one" instead of "drop lowest". It's intuitive that high stats are good, but I find that stats below 10 often do more to shape your character's personality and give them weaknesses. In my last campaign with several new players, some were genuinely disappointed to get scores below 12 and asked for re-rolls.
I'm not a DM, but the method I've liked best is for a DM-given standard array. Most Point Buy allocations look incredibly similar. Rolling can give some players significant advantage. Custom standard array means everyone's on the same footing, but you can make it a bit more interesting than the RAW distribution.
Gonna have to try that card method in a one shot... looks fun.
I have a solution to your concerns on rolling stats for characters. My system avoids low and very high stat sets almost all of the time and always avoids any player in the party having better or worse stats than the others. Each player rolls 4d6drop1 6 times but they keep their best score and put the rest into a party pool. After all players are done the player with the lowest score gets the highest from the pool. This continues til all players have two stats (their top two generally). The order of the players taking a stat in the following rounds is determined by whoever has the lowest total. This continues until all the scores are distributed. I have made some refinements eg distributing the bottom 6 scores as the third round because there is often more variance in scores here and if left til last may mean a player has several fewer points in total than their party members. One of the benefits of this system is every player is invested in the results of rolls by their party members and cheers or groans with each stat rolled as it might end up being theirs. Tie breakers can be based on whoever has the lowest value for their top stat, whoever has the most odd numbered stats, youngest player...
I like this, i have a way of doin it where i have someone do 3 sets of 4d6 - lowest. Then they pick which lot they prefer, and can switch one stat from their chosen set with one of the others left out. Keeps an 18 at max, but has a back up for low stats or the 12/13 in every stat
I have every player roll 4d6 six times, like normal, and we make a list of the results. Each player can pick from that list. So lets say we have three players, Johnny, rolled 14, 13, 13, 12, 11, 11. Pretty average, having your top two stats be a 14 and 13 is going to feel bad, and you'll be behind for the whole campaign. Sally rolled a 16, 16, 14, 11, 9, 8. Same average as Johnny, but significantly more effective as a DnD character. Timmy rolled an 18, 12, 11, 10, 7, 6; an average well below both other rolls, but that 18 is a very enticing starting point for any SAD build. Now the players can choose the rolls they are going to use. Johnny is playing a wizard, so he goes with Timmy's rolls for the 18, and Sally and Timmy use Sally's roll because they are playing MAD builds. The characters are starting more powerful than standard characters, but nobody at the table is less powerful than anyone else at the table because of 1 minute of bad luck. Sometimes it leads to a strong group, but everyone gets to be strong together.
I've had a lot of success with point-buy using a 31 point total. Doesn't feel as stringent as the default total, but doesn't add too much.
Newer to dm'ing. Last time I did, everyone got really lucky except for one player with stat generation and I kept worrying that it'd create an unfun power trough, especially since they were new players. Definitely going to try this method in an upcoming campaign
I've run a few one shots, and our Ability Scores were self determined figures, adding up to a total of 75 one time and 80 another
From my experience, DND servers that do allow random stats have a stat total minimum mechanic where if your stats are automatically re-rolled if they are exceedingly low. For example, having a stat minimum of 60 means that if every stat was somehow 9 or less it would be considered invalid and be re-rolled, preventing characters weaker than commoners in terms of stats from being caused by bad RNG. Since public servers are too large to cater to extreme edge cases in power level, having such minimums is import for encounter balance and not having PCs. Though most servers allow point buy, and it is much more common for rolled stats to be dis-allowed than it is point-buy to be dis-allowed.
The only problem I see with that card method is there's still chance for unfair stats, albeit relativity low. Highest stat could be an 18 or a 14, 18 would be exceedingly rare and 14 better but still very rare. But highest stats of 15 or 17 have decent odds. Common scenario I see is all players have a 16 except one player has a 15 or 17; not that bad, but if you've ever optimized the difference is real, then just leaves you wondering what we gained from doing stats this way.