OK. I'm reviving this thread because you have made me nuts to the point of ridiculousness! I only recently found your channel via the speaker setup video and have been perusing the earlier stuff that you did. I've also been into soundstage and 'disappearing speaker' stuff on this and other channels. Then you suggest this 'crazy' idea that flies in the face of all speaker setup videos but yours. Had to try it because you said so. Oh; wow! I just tried this in my 12x20 listening room and BANG! I can't believe it! In the last week by using new speaker connectors (my old ones were from 30 years ago), a new Schiit Mani 2, and now, following the advice you have given in this video, I darn near have audio Karma -- BOTH the incredible and deep center stage together with the speakers completely disappearing! I now look at a speaker and the sound coming from center is so intense that I am immediately drawn away to instead look at the instruments 'on the stage'. For very little money and thanks to you and this tweak, the system sounds absolutely wonderful and better than everything else that I have ever heard. "Flabbergasted" is the audio word, and "God bless you for your works." are other ones that go on forever. Thank you.
I have a Buchardt S400 and played around with toe until I settled on the tweeters facing my ears. Been like this for months. I never even thought of trying extreme toe in. After watching your video, tried it and liked it within the first 3 songs. I think it will be staying this way. Thank you so much, great tweak! Subscribed.
I live in an apartment and have developed the habit of listening nearfield , 6ft away from the speakers. This enables me to get full sound at lower volumes and helps to not disturb the neighbours. Advantages are that it helps to eliminate a lot of room interaction. I also have my Monitor Audio Bronze 2s toed in to the sweet spot. I tried them with no toe in, and have found that toe in really does give me a rock solid center image and I still have a wide sound stage. Haven't tried this extreme toe in, but I'm going to give it a whirl and see what happens. Great video! Keep up the good work!
@@dougg1075 Yes, there is great magic in nearfield listening with tube amps! My speakers really don't match the combination, so I will be changing them when I can. Good luck on your new system!
Its crazy how much this applies to photography and lighting! It's Called feathering in photography lighting. It give much softer even light vs pointing the light directly at a person or group.
@@michaeljordan7154But just a bit of difference! Sound goes through a medium and light doesn't. Sound is a wave and light is a photon particle or a wave. So light is a transformer and sound is not. It's just regular robot. 😅
This is the absolute best FREE tip ever. I just eye balled it to see if it made any difference and yes it did. I’ll dial it in tomorrow when I have more time.
When I used to work for Loews movie theaters. We worked out asymetrical horns that provided equal sound level left to right in coverage pattern. We got imaging in the theater to go from the middle 20% of the theatre to 80% of the theater width. You can't make time alignment correct, but at least the amplitude is equal left to right.
I cried cause how much the toe-in stuff helped me with my baby A5+ in a small 20m2 bedroom, the soundstage is improved a lot, the sound is fuller also. Thank you so much! You are a hero.
I've done that same thing with my front towers (traditional, no waveguides) and it helps even out the volume heard from each L/R if sitting on the sides of the couch. Because the left seat is closer to the left speaker, which is toed in quite a bit, the upper frequency is rolled off, reducing the SPL they would normally hear if there was little or no toe-in. The right speaker, being farther away, is pointed right at them where there is no off-axis roll off. That increases the SPL they'd normally hear when there is little to no toe-in. In short, they get a reduced output from the left and an increased output from the right, which ends up balancing out very well because of the distance differential between them.
I’ve been in this hobby for 40 years and it takes a bit to impress me... the fact that it’s a free tweak ... well EUREKA! Great stuff and thank you... WOWED !
@@Newrecordday2013 I got home and tried it with my Klipsch forte ii's and wow!!!! i have struggled with locking in a center image and this did it, funny how a simple tweak can change the whole presentation.
My front three speakers are GedLee speakers, built by Earl Geddes, toed in at 45 degrees cross firing a few feet front of me, so basically they are aimed at the farthest seating positions to the left and right, as you showed in this video. My imaging is superb with both audio and video. I also run multiple subs( as recommended by Earl )setup as he suggests. It sounds quite spectacular. The dynamics are off the charts. Earl truly is a guru when it comes to audio, and his speakers are like magic. He no longer builds speakers so I feel quite lucky to have bought them before he ceased production! Upgraditis is a thing of the past for me after owning these speakers. If you haven’t listened to a properly setup, proper waveguide speaker, then you’re missing out. I haven’t been impressed by any speakers at any store since buying mine. My wife is happy too since I haven’t felt like buying new speakers ever since I bought these. If you search for “Earl Geddes” on RUclips, you can find a few videos of Earl explaining his setup theories. He really knows his stuff! Truly one of the finest minds in the audio world.
I think that's pretty much accepted - the k-horn seems to make every book on speaker design. If there are naysayers, I guess they're welcome to their opinions.
@@skipperrussell2025 Again, we seem to be in complete agreement. I cant afford k-horns (think double the US price in AUD) but there is a litany of woe from a longtime Klipsch owner on YT where he tried to ignore the corner positioning (per Klipsch own advice for the lastest iteration of the design) and was a very unhappy camper. Very unhappy.
@@bigelile07 It happens - the perils of an incredibly introspective obsession, I'm afraid. In that particular case, he seems to have continued buying every high-end Klipsch speaker he could until he found one he didnt like, then dashed to YT to tell us all how miserable he was. Audiophilia nervosa being what it is, he subsequently placed the k-horns in their traditional corner position and suddenly he was back in the happy zone - mostly. While I agree with him that the binding posts appear to be cheap and nasty - at least on his pair - a lot of his other misgivings just seemed like something he should have sorted with his dealer well before he took possession of the speakers.
Ron, finally someone has taken the time to investigate and appreciate why corner designed speakers, like some designed back in the forty’s with constant directivity horns sound so good. I really like your educational driven videos.
Into The Void, you’re probably right, I should have said uniform directivity, or controlled directivity which which Klipsch used in its 1948 (???) release of its Klipschorn speaker. I believe they filed for patents around ‘39 or ‘41.
What sorcery is this?? I've just tried it with my 600ms and it looks so wrong but the image is razor sharp, and there a ton of depth that's appeared from nowhere. I'm glad you posted this video, I'd never have tried such aggressive toe-in otherwise.
I’m late to the show, as usual. Klipsch’s set up instructions for my Heresy IIIs described this “radical” toe in. It didn’t compute when I opened the boxes last April. This morning I went downstairs to my sub-sub-optimal listening room and shoved them around. Took five minutes. It worked.
I have Bowers 705s2 speakers pointing directly at my seating position at c7 feet and about the same distance apart. This gives me a solid centre image. I did try hyper toe in with my previous floorstanders and it definitely worked. Here’s a tip to know if you have your centre image is tight... If you have a balance control on your amp, like I do (Moon 240i), try moving the dial from centre to left and then go all the way to the right. If all’s well, you should be hearing the singer move across the stage in front of you as if he or she were holding the mic and walking across the room. Give it a try!
I just tried this and it really does lock in that center image a lot more with the Klipsch. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge 👍 You do an awesome job with with your channel man!
@@ohmythatsweird nothing special. R620f, R51m and R34c that I got a crazy deal on. Works great in my apartment but I'm wanting to upgrade to SVS Ultras or the Klipsch RP or RF series soon
I've also done this toe-in for years in my Klipsch RF7-II now and works awesome for phantom center as I recently put them in a 2.1 system. But this masks not having a center speaker pretty well.
I have some klipsch La Scalas from 1983 that I rebuilt. Fully horn loaded from the 15” woofer, to the 1” tweeter and 1.5” midrange. These things are incredible. Very fast, transient, and lifelike. It’s like they’re waiting to create sound and when they do it just hits you with a sense of realism and accuracy I’ve never heard
Extreme toe in can also work on bright speakers. Experimenting with distance between speakers while toing them in can help the sound "let go" the speakers. Tilting certain speakers forward or backwards can make a big difference on some speakers aswell. So guess what, everything affects the sound to some degree :)
Ron, you my friend are a beauty. I did exactly that with my S400's. Boy what a revelation. The sound stage expands into and almost 16:9 anamorphic visual equivalent. It is the pin sharp centre image that is pure bliss. A big thank you 🙏
@@Newrecordday2013 this keeps giving. i am being drawn to so much more detail while not looking for it or expecting it . the S400's are breathing more openly. singing sweeter, deeper. they are revealing a more musically rich soundstage while acquiring a surprisingly focussed and analytical quality..and not overdoing it either..love it.
Thank you! I have JBL 590s and my room is probably a little too small for them so you sit pretty close and the only "good seat" was in the middle for stereo listening. I'm going to have to fiddle with it more because initially I like it! You get a better center image from further off center.
A day or two after finding the major placement for my budget Yamaha NS-6490s (no waveguides) using your "place your speakers in the dark" instructions, I tried this extreme toe-in. Actually turned out to noticeably widen the soundstage. Physics is weird, but I'm grateful for this - good result.
My friend, I think this has been one of the most unique, helpful, insightful work in audiophile content ever. Please have this approach for more content. This is very helpful and awesome and not just another version of what people talk about reviewing speakers. Awesome awesome work! Thank you! 🙏
I've tried this with my Kef 201/2s and suddenly ... bass!! I've a pair of SVS SB2000s now totally unnecessary for 2 channel! Brilliant! The sweet spot is now huuuge and sound fills the room in a hugely improved way. Bravo!!
I design pro audio systems for churches performing arts centers etc. I have a laser that creates circular laser cones that can be adjusted so the cone is the same dispursion of the speaker. Then you know the coverage of the speaker within the room.and your seating position. Theoretically you are maximizing coverage levels across the width of your couch.
Good info, thank you for that. I own a pair of Amphion Argon 3 speakers with waveguides. Not towing them in at all gave me the best result. But never tried to towing them in this extreme. The result is much better now. Thnx!
I did this 40 years ago and have used it ever since. I prefer "wave guides" (horns to us old timers) because less sound is reflected from the walls and ceiling and floors. Yes, they have other problems.
Horns transision the energy from the diaphragm to the open air. The high air impedence at the diaphragm needs to be gradually transitioned to the low impedence open air. Horns do that. That is why horns have more "impact", more "live-ness". The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth.
Good for you. Too many horn projects end up as dog houses. I have built a number of horns, some copies, some original. The results varied, but I learned from each one of them. John Kedzierski11 said "The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth." and that is most difficult.
I have Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. These are wave guide speakers. The owners manual advises to set the toe in so the intersect a foot or two in front of the primary listening position. It also states 15 degrees off axis to the center of each speaker. This aligns closely to what you are saying. I find the off axis listening is the best I have experienced. I can walk around the room and still have a center sound source.
I did it! And now everything makes total sense! I'm pretty convinced now that the majority of people don't place waveguide speakers correctly. Why did people complain about horn sharpness for all those years? Yup! That's right! Because it makes total sense if you place them correctly. My soundstage lacked a bit in height. Right now the height of the soundstage is about 2 feet below the ceiling. Before there was a ghost like imaging a voice that pops out of the air in the middle. Now it feels like i can stand up and touch the singer. I can laserline trace the image now like you said. Thanx for the tip! Cheers, NV.
That is what I have been experimenting over the past few weeks now with my DIY Open Baffle speakers. I have a 12" round waveguide with a compression driver and I have them toed in and no matter where I stand in the room or If I move around I still hear a clear center image and no variation in sound, specially HF's
The idea of aggressive toe-in reminds me of the Ohm Walsh speakers that use an omnidirectional woofer paired with a tweeter that points 45° into the center of the room, away from the front baffle. And allow for amazing soundstage and imaging that's good no matter where you are in the room.
Looking forward to my Ohm order for LCRs. I do movies much more often than music as my focus varies too much to be an attentive listener for an extended period. So , I first looked to what will fit MY room. The folks who talk abut bringing their 'stereo' pair 9 feet into a room, YOU don't live alone do you? YOU certainly have a really large room and that is sweet for YOU. Omni Ohms will give me acoustic space and fit against (at least close) the wall, in my 12 X11 X10 play room.
Toe-in, LOL glad to here that old knowledge are still useful:-) 8:21 OH WAIT. By using the front spike, do you also move the speaker outward and thereby change the distance to the back and side wall, try to use the back spike in the same side, it can make a difference, try it:-) Try to tow it even more in, try to aim for the ear furthest from the speaker. And next, try to read about "lean back". EDIT: Oh forgot, if you want to really play, then try to place the speakers and your listening possession according to the bass distance between each wave, try to let place the speaker so that it's x,5 wave space from the wall and your listening possession the same..
I did a toe in test a while back. It definitely did sound great but it completely shrunk the sound stage. So, if you like all your sound coming from a 3 foot wave directly in front of you go for it. I still prefer the sound stage as wide as possible.
I did play with toe in with my LRS, I found that toeing in too much reduced the soundstage. I was able to fine tune the toe in so the centre is pin point in the middle and retailed soundstage too. Toeing in too much also meant the off axis sound was really off. Ron has given me an idea, I’m going to turn my speakers 180 degrees and see what they sound like. Sounds crazy but why not experiment. At the moment the sound is imaged behind the speakers, I wonder if the change will make the sound project towards the front
I agree with the LRSs I have been playing a lot with placement and toe end. One day I might be happy! Not they sound bad.........I have a placement that I like but will still play with them.
scottyo64 understood, trying to get maximum performance out of the speakers. I have preferred putting the listening seat in a equilateral triangle with the left and right speakers, I personally like it that way
The LRS and other similar designs have a dipole pattern so the back wave needs to be considered carefully as well as the front. Suffice it to say the back probably shouldn't point directly at the room corners.
So, I tried this with a simple Bose Cinemate system, and this honestly worked wonders. I know, Bose sucks...just using it for movies until I get my real system hooked up again. This really made things a LOT better. Thank you.
The Bose 701 Series 2 have an angle at the tweeter and the sonajero box at the back is angled to reflect sound. This makes the speaker box not have to be angled.
This is amazing! Thanks for sharing! I tried this with my Elac UB5s...Feels like a sweet soundstage spread out in front of me...I'm used to more of a "headphone" type experience. This is nice. Speakers disappear. 👍. I’m sharing with all my friends to experiment.
Important video. I know a movie theater audio engineer who uses waveguides in his theaters. By pointing the surrounds on the left wall exactly on axis toward the seat furthest to the right he achieves plus or minus 1/2db multi channel imaging to every seat in the theater. (lookup HPS4000). He’s been doing this for 30 years!
Have the RP-600Ms and ended up finding this out by mistake. I turned the toe-in back to "normal" because it just seemed kind of silly, and then ended up changing them back to extreme toe-in again because it just sounded so much better.
Very good video. I have listened like this for many years. My KEF Metas got a very good off-axis response but I still prefer to listen to them with heavy toe-in.
I have a horn speaker, HSU Research HB-1 MKII and if I recall they recommended them crossing a few feet in front of the primary listing position which seems is what you are doing here. I normally have them pointing right at me. Maybe I will re-try crossing front of me. I also have a pair of Unifi UB-5s and they are best crossing each other just behind me.
Crazy, it does firm up my center image. My seating position is probably too close and not exactly on center, so this actually helps. Speakers are B&W 683 S2 so not even the wave guide-iest of wave guides.
Using the link you provided I went to the article to which you refer. It doesn't say what you are saying here. It does not suggest that the speakers be pointed to the listening positions to the left and right of the center position. It suggests toeing in the speakers so that they point directly at the center position. However I did try, as you suggested, pointing my Buchardt S400 SE at the lateral listening positions and I did notice improvements... but not in imaging, as you did (in my room I never had any imaging issues with the S400s even when pointed straight out into the room). The improvements I heard were better more defined transients which created tighter more musical bass, increased clarity, and improved timbres, all of which translated in a more engaging, exciting listening experience. AND... as you did, I too did not lose any of the S400s ability to soundstage and image. So I thank you for that. What I would like to know is why you posted the link to an article that does not support what you are suggesting?
Well.. Mother bear! I just tried it with my new JBL 530's. I wanted to send you the photo 😢. It really looks weird and sounds as you described. Great soundstage! By the way. How far apart are your 530's?
Ron - wanted to thank you for the tip. I have UniFi UB5s. Based on your comments, I assumed that the concentric drivers might act something like a horn and tried the exaggerated toe-in (ETI). The difference is not subtle and is, in fact, an astonishing improvement. I doubt, however, that Andrew Jones (AJ) intended that the UB5s should be operated with ETI. At least, I don't recall any such suggestion. I've tried many variations with non-ETI but no setup even approaches the focus and clarity of ETI mode. Surely AJ is aware of the ETI effect and so, I assume, it must be possible to get somewhat similar performance in non-ETI mode. Does that seem reasonable? If so, how?
AJ actually recommends this setup with the Adantes and I can’t see why it wouldn’t work with the UB5s as well! Concentric and wave guides do share some DNA in directivity so this makes total sense to me. Good work on giving it a shot!
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - Thanks for mentioning AJ's recommendation on the Adantes. Based on that I did a quick search and found the following comment attributed to AJ on the Polk Forum: "I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position. I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind. It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls. If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size. If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus. If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image."
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - I just wanted to post another note with an observation for all those who drive themselves crazy trying to decide which speaker to buy using the Internet to get information. This simple "trick" underscores how problematic assessing speakers can be. I do not exaggerate when I say the UB5s with ETI sound like substantially higher end speakers. Yet few, if any, speaker reviews that I've seen on the Net provide specific toe-in angles, etc. I hope your video leads to a lot more discussion around this topic on web-based reviews and demos.
Wow man! You are totally right. Im not kidding. ...Just did this on my Klipsch and the sound improved ALOT :-D ?? Especially Soundstage , bass and midrange. Anyways... big big ty ! :-D
@New Record Day : hey excellent tip . After Listening few songs , actually I am liking. I jut crossed to little over opposite shoulders . Thanks. 👍. I know you mentioned many times . Also I see it will work for system setup placed in triangle shape. Mine almost triangle set up .
isaacsykes3, I tried this with my DI’s and there is definitely a difference you WILL notice! More front to back depth and the expected solid center image.
What a great recommendation 👌. I have Studio 530s. Now I can really enjoy them. Wonderful sound stage and improved center. Not perfect but pretty damn good.
Looking at the comments I see many people doing this with the wrong kind of speakers. It may work for your imperfect ears, but most likely it will introduce other problems that you may or you may not notice unless you have a reference system to compare it to. There are many types of waveguides, and this setup is meant to work with Constant Directivity Speakers and not just every speaker with a waveguide on the market. Constant Directivity Waveguides work together with the Midbass driver and the crossover to provide guess what, constant directivity not only at the frequencies the tweeter produces but also the upper frequencies of the midbass driver and especially at the crossover point. Constant directivity speakers will have a waveguide on the tweeter equally large or larger than the midbass driver. For the other types of speakers, regular toe -in or straight facing placement (refer to your speaker's manufacturer for this) will most likely be better.
I read online that if you put your speakers upside down, it will result in upside down music. Can you test that theory for the next two months and report back at the end or March?
And if you place them backwards, the music is also played backwards and you can hear all of the satanic messages hidden within it! Try it ..... you will be amazed!!!!
Dr. Hsu told me how to do this back in 2009 with his HB1 mkII...they really disappeared a friend of mine with a pair of Fusalears was shocked at the imaging to add to it i was running both of the singled ended Mini Watts which really stepped up the soundstaging even more. Technically many speakers have waveguides these days dual concentrics could benefit from this as well...but some speakers wont need as a severe toe in as the s400 or Hsu Hb1 mkII.
Always the very best, Ron. your always the best. Welcome to fatherdom. They grow up so fast. My little daughter is already 28, and I am so proud of her. She is very successful. I always love your videos. Always informative.
I bought furniture sliders to put under my JBL Studio 590's a week ago. This video kicked me in the butt to finally put em under them and start playing with speaker placement. In my case it was NOT free to play with speaker positioning, the alternative being to throw out my back each time I move the 590's. Cause you can't drag them, it might break the feet. But yeah, furniture sliders, they're cheaper than throwing out your back by a long shot, and no I'm not just going to leave the sliders under there. I'll take them out when I put the 590's in a more permanent setup.
I'm going to try doing the extreme toe-in on my open cone dipole single driver speakers! The open single drivers are only half in the box to warm the open sound without closing it in. The driver is mounted from zero to 2" out of the box and the sound comes out at all directions (directly heard from the cone). Bass and med are still at regular level! It's an oversised box and the speaker hole is bass vent treated (so it's NOT BONKY)! And in the upper med it's an ACOUSTIC NIGHTMARE to set the driver up without severe peaks (@ like 1-2 khz). (Not for the faint hearted and probably as hard to do as horns). Wadding in the box helps but a I don't put much in, for more reverb. But you need some to help with the peaks. 😅 Also (onother important innovation) my 5" FR drivers have cutaways for extra khz. I cut 8mm slits (right through the cone) with 5mm gaps (that are not cut) like 3mm out on the cone from the cente (right around). And I also done it again, like 1 cm out (all around). This improves treble RADICALLY! 😅 How do my speakers sound. Open, yet warm, the holy grail of open speaker sound. Spatial and holograpics on steroids and reverb on steroids (that is, if there is any in the recording). With rrcordings like Moondance by Van morrison, you simply are not going to get that, 😅 And everyone who has heard them like them. Try it. Get some Cheapies (like my $8 FR drivers) and some big boxes and try. My crossover filter for the single driver consists of a 2 mf cap and a small inductor in parallel. The better the driver, the smaller the inductor (rule of thumb). My inductor is 0.47 mh for the $8 single drivers (way too big for a Tang Band or Fostex). You can also try a 3 mf cap. 😅 And I stll would have the guts to try my cutouts on Tang Bands. 😅 Better transient response in the top end! Won't cost much at all to try it but it's just a bit hard on the positioning of the driver (on both mouting method and critical positioning). But when you get it, you will have about the best speakers in the world. Bass venttube is only about 3-4" deep (in the speaker hole). Point source so pure that even the bass refex port is point source! With a BIG box you don't need a woofer to spoil the pure point source sound. It's holograpic @ another level! But they are NOT party speakers (don't crank 'em). The cone will move too much (under bass strain) and make the med sound harsh (due to the Doppler effect).The speakers EXCELL on string quartet type stuff (not cranking doof). 😅 Well recorded strings are definitely @ another level (probably even "better" than real). A good holographic demo video: "Ain't No Sunshine" by: meira. It's cello MAGIC through my single driver whacko speakers. 😅
Great video. I have ADS l710 which are known for having a wide dispersion, no wave guide, and were “meant” to be placed facing straight forward from the wall. I have found this to be the case in a large rectangular room. And yet… I found that in a smaller setup, aggressive toe in works wonders to reduce unwanted wall reflections and widen the sweet spot. This makes me wonder if the crossing streams is the way to go with most speakers in a near/mid field small room setup.
Great tips ! Lazer pointer tip was like the clouds parted. Never even considered it yet it's quietly resting in my tool box... I know what I'm trying tonight 😁. Fantastic vid... Thanks,Ron.✌️
I like that for most rooms people will have more air space for rear ports of they turn their speakers the way you did which most audiophiles agree greatly improves soundstage and levels off "woofy" bass. My question (should you choose to accept it) is strictly regarding the KEF "Tangerine Wave Guide" which is very different than the cone diffusion styles of both the Klipsch and Buchardt you spoke about here. One because it is a concentric tweeter and the waveguide is over the tweeter and not around it. Is the KEF waveguide "directional" as you had said and in either case would they benefit from this extreme toe in?
I toe in until the sides of my waveguide are at 90 degree's to the listening area, then back off until its right for your distance. You can realy dial in a zone that way. This is the way to use horns properly and has been around for a long time.
So, OK, 4 tracks into this test and I'll grant it is not a disaster, which I kinda sorts thought it would be, maybe. Reality is the off axis to the tweeter is the same with this setup as it is with the Fossil Kings pointing straight out. The stage is stable across more ear positions. Pretty interesting so far, if I'm honest, and my inclination is to not dig this. -it was an act of will to move my speakers from their meticulously placed placement. They are with a mm of each other...- And, after some more moving around, they are behaving OK with my meticulous acoustic treatment setup. The Fossil Kings are 18" woofers in H frames, 12 mid and compression driver w waveguide in open baffle type unit ( like how Danny does them, small front baffle with wings going back, so, all open baffle but the tweeter. This setup just might earn it's spot here at the Lodge.
Went back to straight out. I spent the last 2 1/2 years creating this audio thrill ride and the over toe, in this situation, returns my rig to being a mortal stereo., a very good sounding one, but mortal none the less.... Thanks for the prompting, I had been curious to try it, but my speakers are so fettled over I was not keen to move them, fortunately I am not one to get mad at myself over a few new sharpie lines on the carpet.....
I've been doing this on my Klipsch RP-160Ms for quite a while. Occasionally there will be sidewall reflection issues, which some first reflection room treatment would easily resolve. Especially useful if you're setting up on the long wall and trying to cover the shallow, wide space evenly.
Thank you, thank you.....SO cool! Don't know if it has been answered here already, but to what extent could this benefit (if at all) standard - or non-wave guide - speakers? I'll try it anyway to see what it does in my tiny and tonally messy living room.
Extreme toe in has worked wonders on my Heresy I (1980 vintage) which are in room with really bad acoustics (little absorption of any frequency/lots of near reflections). Although I plan to eventually improve the room acoustics (I had done that in another house and it was remarkable how much better the Heresies sounded then), for now this approach seems to have reduced the near reflection issues and improved the soundstage/imaging.
Anyone have any feedback with 590's in a Home theater set up regarding this extreme toe in regarding when a center channel is present? Don't want to start the heavy lifting if it's a no go for home theater applications.🤔🤔🙄😬
Big Jay my 530s seem to have the deepest/widest stage with side angles of the speakers parallel to the walls. To my ears center image gets more focused but also closer and side image moves in to the speakers when extremely toed in.
Ron, I do just this with my Klipsch Chorus ll, and my Studio 590 JBL. Read up on Dr. Earl Geddes papers pertaining to constant directivity. Great stuff!
@@nitrofreakmanho Look UP, I bet those sound fantastic. Do you have the Abbey, or Summa? Are you running dual subs? If you're into DIY, you could go to diyaudio forum and check out username PatrickBateman. He is doing an amazing amount of work with waveguide/ compression driver research/ experimentation, and multiple entry/ synergy / unity horns.
glenn h I haven’t heard any other speakers( myself )that I like more..I’m extremely happy with them. Earl built me the last three Nathan speakers that he made. It was after he quit selling them, and I told him that I couldn’t afford the Abbeys or Summas. He was gracious enough to build me a set of Nathans. Even better, he went above and beyond..he told me that he always wanted to build a set of NN10( New Nathan )speakers, and for a little more money, he’d build mine to that spec..naturally I was excited and told him to go for it. So now I own the only three New Nathan speakers that were ever made. After Earl measured them and sent me the polar plots, and he said that these are the best Nathans he ever measured. They are quite amazing to say the least, I’ve never been happier with my sound system. I can drive them past full reference level volume( up to +11! )depending on the source material, and they get very loud, without making my ears bleed. The dynamics of these speakers is just amazing! I’m so thankful that Earl was kind enough to build them for me. I used to be on all the popular audio forums, including DYI Audio until I bought the Nathans, and setup my multiple sub system as per Earl’s multi sub setup. I haven’t been on the forums since because I’ve been quite satisfied with my AV system so I wasn’t looking for anymore information on how I can improve my setup. I’ve read many of Patrick’s( and other very intelligent members’ )posts. In fact, when anybody hears my setup at home, and asks me where they can buy some, I now direct them to DIY Soundgroup since Earl stopped production. I plan on eventually buying myself some waveguides from them for my garage..I’ve got the itch to build a set, and their customers seem pretty happy with their kits, so I know that they’re doing great work. I don’t think they ship to Canada though, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it. I currently run four subs, it didn’t make a huge difference going to four subs from three..three would be the point of diminishing returns though, I wouldn’t run any less than three if you have the space. People who haven’t listened to properly setup waveguide speakers are really missing out, and they should consider doing so before their next speaker purchase IMHO.
I tried this last night with some very small Yamaha speakers I bought at the thrift store for $3.00 each. The results were interesting. Sound seemed to come from behind the back wall. Clarity improved since early reflections were minimized. Not sure if I like it "bettter". Will try it for a week, then decide.
I get the concept and it makes sense BUT...as with all things audio, it depends on other factors as well. My Klipsch Fortes are placed towards the corners on the long side of my room, not ideal placement but it's a limitation of my space. In this case, my imaging is much better with the speakers pointed just outside my shoulders with the streams crossed just behind me. I've tried extreme toe-in and it just doesn't have the same width of soundstage or accurate imaging. I suspect it's because of the atypical placement. All this to say, try the extreme toe-in with your setup but experiment to find the best sound for your specific circumstance.
Ron, interesting video. Helpful. For what its worth, at last years Rocky Mountain Audio Festival, klipsch was showing their RP600M in their room with the speakers extremely towed in, so much so that I asked the rep at the show why they did that because it looked odd and at the time ridiculous to me. No other vendor had their speakers towed in like that which is why it surprised me.. I think their response was around trying to get a better sound for the people sitting in the small room. Its nice to come full circle and get a new perspective!
I am not a scientist and this is my thoughts as a man of little knowledge. Audiophiles go into minute detail on placement and take into account room acoustics and all aspects of how sound waves travel and are physically reflected and state how they can hear the minute differences that occur then they say point this speaker right across this one and show a diagram showing the directional waves crossing each other but apparently the crossing of the sound waves has no effect on the sound of the other speaker? We see how the sound waves on an open baffle speaker has an effect on sound over a box speaker etc. There is the combing effect where frequencies cancel each other out etc. I just find myself thinking that the sound waves of the speaker pointing directly at you must be affected by the crossing sound waves of the speaker pointing across it and away from you. The directional element seems logical with regard to sound intensity but the theory disregards and ignores that the. Crossing sound waves must affect each other in some way hence I find myself chin scratching. Either sound waves are very sensitive or they aren't. You can't really have it both ways😂 as I said I really don't know what I'm talking about but maybe entertain my idea for a while before laughing. Anyway I love audio and am a sucker for an idea so I had a night listening to my klipsch 🙃RP 150m speakers playing from my mono blocks in the extreme toe in position and didn't feel I liked the sound more than my weird and crazy SLIGHTLY TOED OUT POSITION!!!!!!! and tonight they're back like they were. I know I'm a crazy fool. How can I listen to my set up like that😂😂😂Anyway guys however you listen and whatever you listen to have fun👍
I've tried this extreme toe in, where the left speaker points to the right, and the right to the left, but I find the center image to be, not straight from left to right, but a bit off focus. So I've reverted to slight toe in, where the tweeters slightly point to my ears. This is a pair of KRK Rokit5's.
I have seen this being done at audioshows, in fact last year i saw mr ken ishiwata do that to a pair of sonus faber that were played with his marantz gear, they were toed in so much that they were crossed before the first row middle seat
I tried several different positions with my monitor audio silver 600's, Yes I locked in better depths when going extreme ( used madonna's "celebration") where her opening is very obvious left right and bongos of to the right. However I also lost a lot of sound stage and seemed to lose a good portion of tonality. So I for one will stay with a slight toe in. Thanks for the info, it was fun experimenting.
We have a large L shaped couch. Definitely not great. Unfortunately circumstances force me to occasionally be on the worst corner. Toeing in speakers almost to the point where they are pointing at the other wall brings L/R back, even though I'm 12 feet from the L and about 3 from the R.
And... the Klipsch don't sound as bright anymore and the imaging is awesome for my suboptimal room. This was the best tip of the day for me! Thanks :) Still going to build the X-LS Encores though, but the Klipsch as the HT L/R pair are now perfect.
OK. I'm reviving this thread because you have made me nuts to the point of ridiculousness! I only recently found your channel via the speaker setup video and have been perusing the earlier stuff that you did. I've also been into soundstage and 'disappearing speaker' stuff on this and other channels. Then you suggest this 'crazy' idea that flies in the face of all speaker setup videos but yours. Had to try it because you said so.
Oh; wow! I just tried this in my 12x20 listening room and BANG! I can't believe it! In the last week by using new speaker connectors (my old ones were from 30 years ago), a new Schiit Mani 2, and now, following the advice you have given in this video, I darn near have audio Karma -- BOTH the incredible and deep center stage together with the speakers completely disappearing! I now look at a speaker and the sound coming from center is so intense that I am immediately drawn away to instead look at the instruments 'on the stage'. For very little money and thanks to you and this tweak, the system sounds absolutely wonderful and better than everything else that I have ever heard.
"Flabbergasted" is the audio word, and "God bless you for your works." are other ones that go on forever. Thank you.
I have a Buchardt S400 and played around with toe until I settled on the tweeters facing my ears. Been like this for months. I never even thought of trying extreme toe in. After watching your video, tried it and liked it within the first 3 songs. I think it will be staying this way. Thank you so much, great tweak! Subscribed.
I live in an apartment and have developed the habit of listening nearfield , 6ft away from the speakers. This enables me to get full sound at lower volumes and helps to not disturb the neighbours.
Advantages are that it helps to eliminate a lot of room interaction. I also have my Monitor Audio Bronze 2s toed in to the sweet spot. I tried them with no toe in, and have found that toe in really does give me a rock solid center image and I still have a wide sound stage.
Haven't tried this extreme toe in, but I'm going to give it a whirl and see what happens.
Great video! Keep up the good work!
@@dougg1075 Yes, there is great magic in nearfield listening with tube amps!
My speakers really don't match the combination, so I will be changing them when I can. Good luck on your new system!
Its crazy how much this applies to photography and lighting! It's Called feathering in photography lighting. It give much softer even light vs pointing the light directly at a person or group.
It is all about wave Lengths. There isn't a huge difference between light and sound.
@@michaeljordan7154But just a bit of difference!
Sound goes through a medium and light doesn't.
Sound is a wave and light is a photon particle or a wave.
So light is a transformer and sound is not.
It's just regular robot. 😅
This is the absolute best FREE tip ever. I just eye balled it to see if it made any difference and yes it did. I’ll dial it in tomorrow when I have more time.
When I used to work for Loews movie theaters. We worked out asymetrical horns that provided equal sound level left to right in coverage pattern. We got imaging in the theater to go from the middle 20% of the theatre to 80% of the theater width. You can't make time alignment correct, but at least the amplitude is equal left to right.
I cried cause how much the toe-in stuff helped me with my baby A5+ in a small 20m2 bedroom, the soundstage is improved a lot, the sound is fuller also. Thank you so much! You are a hero.
I've done that same thing with my front towers (traditional, no waveguides) and it helps even out the volume heard from each L/R if sitting on the sides of the couch.
Because the left seat is closer to the left speaker, which is toed in quite a bit, the upper frequency is rolled off, reducing the SPL they would normally hear if there was little or no toe-in. The right speaker, being farther away, is pointed right at them where there is no off-axis roll off. That increases the SPL they'd normally hear when there is little to no toe-in. In short, they get a reduced output from the left and an increased output from the right, which ends up balancing out very well because of the distance differential between them.
This right here, is why I think extreme toe-in makes sense
Yah, I use this method for 2 person listening.
I’ve been in this hobby for 40 years and it takes a bit to impress me... the fact that it’s a free tweak
... well EUREKA! Great stuff and thank you... WOWED !
Rad!
@@Newrecordday2013 I got home and tried it with my Klipsch forte ii's and wow!!!! i have struggled with locking in a center image and this did it, funny how a simple tweak can change the whole presentation.
My front three speakers are GedLee speakers, built by Earl Geddes, toed in at 45 degrees cross firing a few feet front of me, so basically they are aimed at the farthest seating positions to the left and right, as you showed in this video.
My imaging is superb with both audio and video. I also run multiple subs( as recommended by Earl )setup as he suggests. It sounds quite spectacular. The dynamics are off the charts. Earl truly is a guru when it comes to audio, and his speakers are like magic. He no longer builds speakers so I feel quite lucky to have bought them before he ceased production! Upgraditis is a thing of the past for me after owning these speakers.
If you haven’t listened to a properly setup, proper waveguide speaker, then you’re missing out. I haven’t been impressed by any speakers at any store since buying mine. My wife is happy too since I haven’t felt like buying new speakers ever since I bought these.
If you search for “Earl Geddes” on RUclips, you can find a few videos of Earl explaining his setup theories. He really knows his stuff! Truly one of the finest minds in the audio world.
So basically Paul Klipsch was a genius when he invented the Klipschorn.
I think that's pretty much accepted - the k-horn seems to make every book on speaker design. If there are naysayers, I guess they're welcome to their opinions.
Klipsch horns properly set up in the right room are awesome.
@@skipperrussell2025 Again, we seem to be in complete agreement. I cant afford k-horns (think double the US price in AUD) but there is a litany of woe from a longtime Klipsch owner on YT where he tried to ignore the corner positioning (per Klipsch own advice for the lastest iteration of the design) and was a very unhappy camper. Very unhappy.
@@arthurwatts1680 I know who you are talking about. I can't watch anymore of his videos. Too long and drawn-out. And now his reviews are a math class.
@@bigelile07 It happens - the perils of an incredibly introspective obsession, I'm afraid. In that particular case, he seems to have continued buying every high-end Klipsch speaker he could until he found one he didnt like, then dashed to YT to tell us all how miserable he was. Audiophilia nervosa being what it is, he subsequently placed the k-horns in their traditional corner position and suddenly he was back in the happy zone - mostly. While I agree with him that the binding posts appear to be cheap and nasty - at least on his pair - a lot of his other misgivings just seemed like something he should have sorted with his dealer well before he took possession of the speakers.
Ron, finally someone has taken the time to investigate and appreciate why corner designed speakers, like some designed back in the forty’s with constant directivity horns sound so good. I really like your educational driven videos.
Thanks Michael!
Constant directivity horns didnt exist in the 40s, and none of the waveguides in this video are constant directivity.
Into The Void, you’re probably right, I should have said uniform directivity, or controlled directivity which which Klipsch used in its 1948 (???) release of its Klipschorn speaker. I believe they filed for patents around ‘39 or ‘41.
It was Earl Geddes that introduced constant directivity waveguide speakers to the audio world.
Ron, this is the best tip EVER! I used this for the DI's and I am loving it! Thank you for this education!
What sorcery is this?? I've just tried it with my 600ms and it looks so wrong but the image is razor sharp, and there a ton of depth that's appeared from nowhere. I'm glad you posted this video, I'd never have tried such aggressive toe-in otherwise.
Booooom! Free upgrades!
No, its not sorcerery. Its physics.
I’m late to the show, as usual. Klipsch’s set up instructions for my Heresy IIIs described this “radical” toe in. It didn’t compute when I opened the boxes last April. This morning I went downstairs to my sub-sub-optimal listening room and shoved them around. Took five minutes. It worked.
I have Bowers 705s2 speakers pointing directly at my seating position at c7 feet and about the same distance apart. This gives me a solid centre image. I did try hyper toe in with my previous floorstanders and it definitely worked. Here’s a tip to know if you have your centre image is tight... If you have a balance control on your amp, like I do (Moon 240i), try moving the dial from centre to left and then go all the way to the right. If all’s well, you should be hearing the singer move across the stage in front of you as if he or she were holding the mic and walking across the room. Give it a try!
I just tried this and it really does lock in that center image a lot more with the Klipsch. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge 👍 You do an awesome job with with your channel man!
Thanks for giving it a shot!
What Klipsch do you have?
@@ohmythatsweird nothing special. R620f, R51m and R34c that I got a crazy deal on. Works great in my apartment but I'm wanting to upgrade to SVS Ultras or the Klipsch RP or RF series soon
@@biff196972 Cool. I've got some RF'S and RP's . Will shift them later on and see how it works out.
I've also done this toe-in for years in my Klipsch RF7-II now and works awesome for phantom center as I recently put them in a 2.1 system. But this masks not having a center speaker pretty well.
I have some klipsch La Scalas from 1983 that I rebuilt. Fully horn loaded from the 15” woofer, to the 1” tweeter and 1.5” midrange. These things are incredible. Very fast, transient, and lifelike. It’s like they’re waiting to create sound and when they do it just hits you with a sense of realism and accuracy I’ve never heard
Extreme toe in can also work on bright speakers. Experimenting with distance between speakers while toing them in can help the sound "let go" the speakers. Tilting certain speakers forward or backwards can make a big difference on some speakers aswell. So guess what, everything affects the sound to some degree :)
Ron, you my friend are a beauty. I did exactly that with my S400's. Boy what a revelation. The sound stage expands into and almost 16:9 anamorphic visual equivalent. It is the pin sharp centre image that is pure bliss. A big thank you 🙏
Yessssss! Boom!
@@Newrecordday2013 this keeps giving. i am being drawn to so much more detail while not looking for it or expecting it . the S400's are breathing more openly. singing sweeter, deeper.
they are revealing a more musically rich soundstage while acquiring a surprisingly focussed and analytical quality..and not overdoing it either..love it.
Man.. I wish it was frequency Every Day's LOL. Love these types of videos. Keep em coming :)
Thank you! I have JBL 590s and my room is probably a little too small for them so you sit pretty close and the only "good seat" was in the middle for stereo listening. I'm going to have to fiddle with it more because initially I like it! You get a better center image from further off center.
A day or two after finding the major placement for my budget Yamaha NS-6490s (no waveguides) using your "place your speakers in the dark" instructions, I tried this extreme toe-in. Actually turned out to noticeably widen the soundstage. Physics is weird, but I'm grateful for this - good result.
Did this with Klipsch RF-7 III and wow I was blown away by how much better it sounded. Thank you so much for this video. :)
My friend, I think this has been one of the most unique, helpful, insightful work in audiophile content ever. Please have this approach for more content. This is very helpful and awesome and not just another version of what people talk about reviewing speakers. Awesome awesome work! Thank you! 🙏
Thank you!
Was that Karate or Tai Chi you were doing at 0:20?
A combo of both, trained under Norris. Back off son!
I've tried this with my Kef 201/2s and suddenly ... bass!!
I've a pair of SVS SB2000s now totally unnecessary for 2 channel! Brilliant!
The sweet spot is now huuuge and sound fills the room in a hugely improved way. Bravo!!
Interesting... I tried this with JBL control 5 and lost bass, which made the overall sound much worse.
I design pro audio systems for churches performing arts centers etc. I have a laser that creates circular laser cones that can be adjusted so the cone is the same dispursion of the speaker. Then you know the coverage of the speaker within the room.and your seating position. Theoretically you are maximizing coverage levels across the width of your couch.
Good info, thank you for that.
I own a pair of Amphion Argon 3 speakers with waveguides.
Not towing them in at all gave me the best result. But never tried to towing them in this extreme. The result is much better now.
Thnx!
I did this 40 years ago and have used it ever since. I prefer "wave guides" (horns to us old timers) because less sound is reflected from the walls and ceiling and floors. Yes, they have other problems.
Horns transision the energy from the diaphragm to the open air. The high air impedence at the diaphragm needs to be gradually transitioned to the low impedence open air. Horns do that. That is why horns have more "impact", more "live-ness". The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth.
You are totally correct. One of the side effects of horns is the ability to control where the sound propagates. I prefer less early reflections.
Good for you. Too many horn projects end up as dog houses. I have built a number of horns, some copies, some original. The results varied, but I learned from each one of them. John Kedzierski11 said "The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth." and that is most difficult.
Ha, super tip! The Kef ls50 is enough of a waveguide for this trick make a noticeable improvement.
I have Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. These are wave guide speakers. The owners manual advises to set the toe in so the intersect a foot or two in front of the primary listening position. It also states 15 degrees off axis to the center of each speaker. This aligns closely to what you are saying. I find the off axis listening is the best I have experienced. I can walk around the room and still have a center sound source.
I did it! And now everything makes total sense! I'm pretty convinced now that the majority of people don't place waveguide speakers correctly. Why did people complain about horn sharpness for all those years? Yup! That's right! Because it makes total sense if you place them correctly. My soundstage lacked a bit in height. Right now the height of the soundstage is about 2 feet below the ceiling. Before there was a ghost like imaging a voice that pops out of the air in the middle. Now it feels like i can stand up and touch the singer. I can laserline trace the image now like you said. Thanx for the tip! Cheers, NV.
🙏🎆🎊👊🏻
Yes it works very well with some speakers. Zeos Pantera talked about it about a year ago.
That is what I have been experimenting over the past few weeks now with my DIY Open Baffle speakers. I have a 12" round waveguide with a compression driver and I have them toed in and no matter where I stand in the room or If I move around I still hear a clear center image and no variation in sound, specially HF's
The idea of aggressive toe-in reminds me of the Ohm Walsh speakers that use an omnidirectional woofer paired with a tweeter that points 45° into the center of the room, away from the front baffle. And allow for amazing soundstage and imaging that's good no matter where you are in the room.
Looking forward to my Ohm order for LCRs. I do movies much more often than music as my focus varies too much to be an attentive listener for an extended period. So , I first looked to what will fit MY room. The folks who talk abut bringing their 'stereo' pair 9 feet into a room, YOU don't live alone do you? YOU certainly have a really large room and that is sweet for YOU.
Omni Ohms will give me acoustic space and fit against (at least close) the wall, in my 12 X11 X10 play room.
Toe-in, LOL glad to here that old knowledge are still useful:-)
8:21 OH WAIT. By using the front spike, do you also move the speaker outward and thereby change the distance to the back and side wall, try to use the back spike in the same side, it can make a difference, try it:-) Try to tow it even more in, try to aim for the ear furthest from the speaker. And next, try to read about "lean back".
EDIT: Oh forgot, if you want to really play, then try to place the speakers and your listening possession according to the bass distance between each wave, try to let place the speaker so that it's x,5 wave space from the wall and your listening possession the same..
I did a toe in test a while back. It definitely did sound great but it completely shrunk the sound stage. So, if you like all your sound coming from a 3 foot wave directly in front of you go for it. I still prefer the sound stage as wide as possible.
I did play with toe in with my LRS, I found that toeing in too much reduced the soundstage. I was able to fine tune the toe in so the centre is pin point in the middle and retailed soundstage too. Toeing in too much also meant the off axis sound was really off.
Ron has given me an idea, I’m going to turn my speakers 180 degrees and see what they sound like. Sounds crazy but why not experiment. At the moment the sound is imaged behind the speakers, I wonder if the change will make the sound project towards the front
Love the mad scientists out there!
I agree with the LRSs I have been playing a lot with placement and toe end. One day I might be happy!
Not they sound bad.........I have a placement that I like but will still play with them.
scottyo64 understood, trying to get maximum performance out of the speakers.
I have preferred putting the listening seat in a equilateral triangle with the left and right speakers, I personally like it that way
The LRS and other similar designs have a dipole pattern so the back wave needs to be considered carefully as well as the front. Suffice it to say the back probably shouldn't point directly at the room corners.
Yep. Been doing this with my JBL and Kali waveguided speakers. Also helps with first reflections in my room.
So, I tried this with a simple Bose Cinemate system, and this honestly worked wonders. I know, Bose sucks...just using it for movies until I get my real system hooked up again. This really made things a LOT better. Thank you.
Used it on the lsr305 jbls made the imaging more pin point than it already was. Thank you
Yes!!!
The Bose 701 Series 2 have an angle at the tweeter and the sonajero box at the back is angled to reflect sound. This makes the speaker box not have to be angled.
This is amazing! Thanks for sharing! I tried this with my Elac UB5s...Feels like a sweet soundstage spread out in front of me...I'm used to more of a "headphone" type experience. This is nice. Speakers disappear. 👍. I’m sharing with all my friends to experiment.
Thank you! Thought I was the only one who had noticed this a couple years ago.
I used this hack on my klipsch rp280 horn type speakers and it works like a charm. Left and right most listening positions got better soundstage.
Works very well with the lesser, Klipsch R-820-F. Thanks for the video and education!
Great content. This useful tip solved my left reflection point with my Ls50 Metas.
Important video. I know a movie theater audio engineer who uses waveguides in his theaters. By pointing the surrounds on the left wall exactly on axis toward the seat furthest to the right he achieves plus or minus 1/2db multi channel imaging to every seat in the theater. (lookup HPS4000). He’s been doing this for 30 years!
this is in the manual for the Spendor BC1 from the late 1960s
Have the RP-600Ms and ended up finding this out by mistake. I turned the toe-in back to "normal" because it just seemed kind of silly, and then ended up changing them back to extreme toe-in again because it just sounded so much better.
Right on!
Very good video. I have listened like this for many years. My KEF Metas got a very good off-axis response but I still prefer to listen to them with heavy toe-in.
I have a horn speaker, HSU Research HB-1 MKII and if I recall they recommended them crossing a few feet in front of the primary listing position which seems is what you are doing here. I normally have them pointing right at me. Maybe I will re-try crossing front of me. I also have a pair of Unifi UB-5s and they are best crossing each other just behind me.
Dr. Hsu sets them up that way at hifi shows and points out how nicely they image even when you're not in the sweet spot.
Crazy, it does firm up my center image. My seating position is probably too close and not exactly on center, so this actually helps. Speakers are B&W 683 S2 so not even the wave guide-iest of wave guides.
Awesome!
Using the link you provided I went to the article to which you refer. It doesn't say what you are saying here. It does not suggest that the speakers be pointed to the listening positions to the left and right of the center position. It suggests toeing in the speakers so that they point directly at the center position.
However I did try, as you suggested, pointing my Buchardt S400 SE at the lateral listening positions and I did notice improvements... but not in imaging, as you did (in my room I never had any imaging issues with the S400s even when pointed straight out into the room).
The improvements I heard were better more defined transients which created tighter more musical bass, increased clarity, and improved timbres, all of which translated in a more engaging, exciting listening experience. AND... as you did, I too did not lose any of the S400s ability to soundstage and image.
So I thank you for that.
What I would like to know is why you posted the link to an article that does not support what you are suggesting?
This works for non waveguide type speakers as well.
Well.. Mother bear! I just tried it with my new JBL 530's. I wanted to send you the photo 😢. It really looks weird and sounds as you described. Great soundstage! By the way. How far apart are your 530's?
Brilliant Ron - really really helpful and thanks for the PDF.
this made me stop messing with my gear and just listen to music
Ron - wanted to thank you for the tip.
I have UniFi UB5s. Based on your comments, I assumed that the concentric drivers might act something like a horn and tried the exaggerated toe-in (ETI). The difference is not subtle and is, in fact, an astonishing improvement. I doubt, however, that Andrew Jones (AJ) intended that the UB5s should be operated with ETI. At least, I don't recall any such suggestion.
I've tried many variations with non-ETI but no setup even approaches the focus and clarity of ETI mode. Surely AJ is aware of the ETI effect and so, I assume, it must be possible to get somewhat similar performance in non-ETI mode. Does that seem reasonable? If so, how?
AJ actually recommends this setup with the Adantes and I can’t see why it wouldn’t work with the UB5s as well! Concentric and wave guides do share some DNA in directivity so this makes total sense to me. Good work on giving it a shot!
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - Thanks for mentioning AJ's recommendation on the Adantes. Based on that I did a quick search and found the following comment attributed to AJ on the Polk Forum:
"I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image."
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - I just wanted to post another note with an observation for all those who drive themselves crazy trying to decide which speaker to buy using the Internet to get information. This simple "trick" underscores how problematic assessing speakers can be. I do not exaggerate when I say the UB5s with ETI sound like substantially higher end speakers. Yet few, if any, speaker reviews that I've seen on the Net provide specific toe-in angles, etc. I hope your video leads to a lot more discussion around this topic on web-based reviews and demos.
Wow man! You are totally right. Im not kidding. ...Just did this on my Klipsch and the sound improved ALOT :-D ?? Especially Soundstage , bass and midrange. Anyways... big big ty ! :-D
Tried . I felt center image and depth got More benefit over wider sound stage.
Thanks for giving it a go!
@New Record Day : hey excellent tip . After Listening few songs , actually I am liking. I jut crossed to little over opposite shoulders . Thanks. 👍. I know you mentioned many times .
Also I see it will work for system setup placed in triangle shape. Mine almost triangle set up .
Do you think that the Tekton Double Impacts would have benefited from such an aggressive toe-in, or even the KEF LS50's ?
isaacsykes3, I tried this with my DI’s and there is definitely a difference you WILL notice! More front to back depth and the expected solid center image.
What a great recommendation 👌. I have Studio 530s. Now I can really enjoy them. Wonderful sound stage and improved center. Not perfect but pretty damn good.
Awesome!
Looking at the comments I see many people doing this with the wrong kind of speakers. It may work for your imperfect ears, but most likely it will introduce other problems that you may or you may not notice unless you have a reference system to compare it to.
There are many types of waveguides, and this setup is meant to work with Constant Directivity Speakers and not just every speaker with a waveguide on the market. Constant Directivity Waveguides work together with the Midbass driver and the crossover to provide guess what, constant directivity not only at the frequencies the tweeter produces but also the upper frequencies of the midbass driver and especially at the crossover point. Constant directivity speakers will have a waveguide on the tweeter equally large or larger than the midbass driver.
For the other types of speakers, regular toe -in or straight facing placement (refer to your speaker's manufacturer for this) will most likely be better.
I read online that if you put your speakers upside down, it will result in upside down music. Can you test that theory for the next two months and report back at the end or March?
Hahaha
And if you place them backwards, the music is also played backwards and you can hear all of the satanic messages hidden within it!
Try it ..... you will be amazed!!!!
😂😂
Dr. Hsu told me how to do this back in 2009 with his HB1 mkII...they really disappeared a friend of mine with a pair of Fusalears was shocked at the imaging to add to it i was running both of the singled ended Mini Watts which really stepped up the soundstaging even more. Technically many speakers have waveguides these days dual concentrics could benefit from this as well...but some speakers wont need as a severe toe in as the s400 or Hsu Hb1 mkII.
Always the very best, Ron. your always the best. Welcome to fatherdom. They grow up so fast. My little daughter is already 28, and I am so proud of her. She is very successful. I always love your videos. Always informative.
I have a really wide sectional. Would extreme toe in also work if I gave them to the widest part of the sectional? Klipsch rf7 iii
Amazing. I tried this extreme toe-in and, OMG. I never knew my Focal Aria 926, are this capable. Thanks.
I bought furniture sliders to put under my JBL Studio 590's a week ago. This video kicked me in the butt to finally put em under them and start playing with speaker placement. In my case it was NOT free to play with speaker positioning, the alternative being to throw out my back each time I move the 590's. Cause you can't drag them, it might break the feet. But yeah, furniture sliders, they're cheaper than throwing out your back by a long shot, and no I'm not just going to leave the sliders under there. I'll take them out when I put the 590's in a more permanent setup.
I'm going to try doing the extreme toe-in on my open cone dipole single driver speakers! The open single drivers are only half in the box to warm the open sound without closing it in. The driver is mounted from zero to 2" out of the box and the sound comes out at all directions (directly heard from the cone). Bass and med are still at regular level! It's an oversised box and the speaker hole is bass vent treated (so it's NOT BONKY)! And in the upper med it's an ACOUSTIC NIGHTMARE to set the driver up without severe peaks (@ like 1-2 khz). (Not for the faint hearted and probably as hard to do as horns). Wadding in the box helps but a I don't put much in, for more reverb. But you need some to help with the peaks. 😅 Also (onother important innovation) my 5" FR drivers have cutaways for extra khz. I cut 8mm slits (right through the cone) with 5mm gaps (that are not cut) like 3mm out on the cone from the cente (right around). And I also done it again, like 1 cm out (all around). This improves treble RADICALLY! 😅 How do my speakers sound. Open, yet warm, the holy grail of open speaker sound. Spatial and holograpics on steroids and reverb on steroids (that is, if there is any in the recording). With rrcordings like Moondance by Van morrison, you simply are not going to get that, 😅 And everyone who has heard them like them. Try it. Get some Cheapies (like my $8 FR drivers) and some big boxes and try. My crossover filter for the single driver consists of a 2 mf cap and a small inductor in parallel. The better the driver, the smaller the inductor (rule of thumb). My inductor is 0.47 mh for the $8 single drivers (way too big for a Tang Band or Fostex). You can also try a 3 mf cap. 😅 And I stll would have the guts to try my cutouts on Tang Bands. 😅 Better transient response in the top end! Won't cost much at all to try it but it's just a bit hard on the positioning of the driver (on both mouting method and critical positioning). But when you get it, you will have about the best speakers in the world. Bass venttube is only about 3-4" deep (in the speaker hole). Point source so pure that even the bass refex port is point source! With a BIG box you don't need a woofer to spoil the pure point source sound. It's holograpic @ another level! But they are NOT party speakers (don't crank 'em). The cone will move too much (under bass strain) and make the med sound harsh (due to the Doppler effect).The speakers EXCELL on string quartet type stuff (not cranking doof). 😅 Well recorded strings are definitely @ another level (probably even "better" than real). A good holographic demo video: "Ain't No Sunshine" by: meira. It's cello MAGIC through my single driver whacko speakers. 😅
Great video. I have ADS l710 which are known for having a wide dispersion, no wave guide, and were “meant” to be placed facing straight forward from the wall. I have found this to be the case in a large rectangular room. And yet… I found that in a smaller setup, aggressive toe in works wonders to reduce unwanted wall reflections and widen the sweet spot. This makes me wonder if the crossing streams is the way to go with most speakers in a near/mid field small room setup.
The phantom center returns!!!
Great tips ! Lazer pointer tip was like the clouds parted. Never even considered it yet it's quietly resting in my tool box... I know what I'm trying tonight 😁. Fantastic vid... Thanks,Ron.✌️
Thanks bro!
I like that for most rooms people will have more air space for rear ports of they turn their speakers the way you did which most audiophiles agree greatly improves soundstage and levels off "woofy" bass.
My question (should you choose to accept it) is strictly regarding the KEF "Tangerine Wave Guide" which is very different than the cone diffusion styles of both the Klipsch and Buchardt you spoke about here. One because it is a concentric tweeter and the waveguide is over the tweeter and not around it. Is the KEF waveguide "directional" as you had said and in either case would they benefit from this extreme toe in?
I toe in until the sides of my waveguide are at 90 degree's to the listening area, then back off until its right for your distance. You can realy dial in a zone that way. This is the way to use horns properly and has been around for a long time.
This is new to me! Thanks for the info bro! I can imagine the physics involved! That's why in commercial movie theaters the sweet spot is large!
So, OK, 4 tracks into this test and I'll grant it is not a disaster, which I kinda sorts thought it would be, maybe. Reality is the off axis to the tweeter is the same with this setup as it is with the Fossil Kings pointing straight out. The stage is stable across more ear positions. Pretty interesting so far, if I'm honest, and my inclination is to not dig this. -it was an act of will to move my speakers from their meticulously placed placement. They are with a mm of each other...- And, after some more moving around, they are behaving OK with my meticulous acoustic treatment setup. The Fossil Kings are 18" woofers in H frames, 12 mid and compression driver w waveguide in open baffle type unit ( like how Danny does them, small front baffle with wings going back, so, all open baffle but the tweeter.
This setup just might earn it's spot here at the Lodge.
Went back to straight out. I spent the last 2 1/2 years creating this audio thrill ride and the over toe, in this situation, returns my rig to being a mortal stereo., a very good sounding one, but mortal none the less.... Thanks for the prompting, I had been curious to try it, but my speakers are so fettled over I was not keen to move them, fortunately I am not one to get mad at myself over a few new sharpie lines on the carpet.....
Nice new Studio Ron and great content as usual, thank you!
I've been doing this on my Klipsch RP-160Ms for quite a while. Occasionally there will be sidewall reflection issues, which some first reflection room treatment would easily resolve. Especially useful if you're setting up on the long wall and trying to cover the shallow, wide space evenly.
Amazing ! It works with the Elac debut 2 5.2 THANKS
This is the concept, Ken Ishiwata always used for his Listening sessions
Thank you, thank you.....SO cool! Don't know if it has been answered here already, but to what extent could this benefit (if at all) standard - or non-wave guide - speakers? I'll try it anyway to see what it does in my tiny and tonally messy living room.
Extreme toe in has worked wonders on my Heresy I (1980 vintage) which are in room with really bad acoustics (little absorption of any frequency/lots of near reflections). Although I plan to eventually improve the room acoustics (I had done that in another house and it was remarkable how much better the Heresies sounded then), for now this approach seems to have reduced the near reflection issues and improved the soundstage/imaging.
Anyone have any feedback with 590's in a Home theater set up regarding this extreme toe in regarding when a center channel is present? Don't want to start the heavy lifting if it's a no go for home theater applications.🤔🤔🙄😬
Big Jay my 530s seem to have the deepest/widest stage with side angles of the speakers parallel to the walls. To my ears center image gets more focused but also closer and side image moves in to the speakers when extremely toed in.
Yeah it’s actually pretty great for far field or if your speakers are far apart or close to the wall.
Ron, I do just this with my Klipsch Chorus ll, and my Studio 590 JBL. Read up on Dr. Earl Geddes papers pertaining to constant directivity. Great stuff!
glenn h I bought my three front speakers from Earl..they are the best upgrade I ever made to my AV system!
@@nitrofreakmanho Look UP, I bet those sound fantastic. Do you have the Abbey, or Summa? Are you running dual subs? If you're into DIY, you could go to diyaudio forum and check out username PatrickBateman. He is doing an amazing amount of work with waveguide/ compression driver research/ experimentation, and multiple entry/ synergy / unity horns.
glenn h I haven’t heard any other speakers( myself )that I like more..I’m extremely happy with them. Earl built me the last three Nathan speakers that he made. It was after he quit selling them, and I told him that I couldn’t afford the Abbeys or Summas. He was gracious enough to build me a set of Nathans. Even better, he went above and beyond..he told me that he always wanted to build a set of NN10( New Nathan )speakers, and for a little more money, he’d build mine to that spec..naturally I was excited and told him to go for it. So now I own the only three New Nathan speakers that were ever made. After Earl measured them and sent me the polar plots, and he said that these are the best Nathans he ever measured. They are quite amazing to say the least, I’ve never been happier with my sound system. I can drive them past full reference level volume( up to +11! )depending on the source material, and they get very loud, without making my ears bleed. The dynamics of these speakers is just amazing! I’m so thankful that Earl was kind enough to build them for me.
I used to be on all the popular audio forums, including DYI Audio until I bought the Nathans, and setup my multiple sub system as per Earl’s multi sub setup. I haven’t been on the forums since because I’ve been quite satisfied with my AV system so I wasn’t looking for anymore information on how I can improve my setup.
I’ve read many of Patrick’s( and other very intelligent members’ )posts. In fact, when anybody hears my setup at home, and asks me where they can buy some, I now direct them to DIY Soundgroup since Earl stopped production. I plan on eventually buying myself some waveguides from them for my garage..I’ve got the itch to build a set, and their customers seem pretty happy with their kits, so I know that they’re doing great work. I don’t think they ship to Canada though, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.
I currently run four subs, it didn’t make a huge difference going to four subs from three..three would be the point of diminishing returns though, I wouldn’t run any less than three if you have the space. People who haven’t listened to properly setup waveguide speakers are really missing out, and they should consider doing so before their next speaker purchase IMHO.
I tried this last night with some very small Yamaha speakers I bought at the thrift store for $3.00 each. The results were interesting. Sound seemed to come from behind the back wall. Clarity improved since early reflections were minimized. Not sure if I like it "bettter". Will try it for a week, then decide.
I did this very thing with my car tweeters in the late 80s.
Yup so did i, I also had 3" mids on the dash and they were also crossing streams. Great way to compensate for the unequal paths.
I get the concept and it makes sense BUT...as with all things audio, it depends on other factors as well. My Klipsch Fortes are placed towards the corners on the long side of my room, not ideal placement but it's a limitation of my space. In this case, my imaging is much better with the speakers pointed just outside my shoulders with the streams crossed just behind me. I've tried extreme toe-in and it just doesn't have the same width of soundstage or accurate imaging. I suspect it's because of the atypical placement. All this to say, try the extreme toe-in with your setup but experiment to find the best sound for your specific circumstance.
Absolutely. It’s worth trying to hear what happens but surely won’t work in every circumstance.
Ron, interesting video. Helpful. For what its worth, at last years Rocky Mountain Audio Festival, klipsch was showing their RP600M in their room with the speakers extremely towed in, so much so that I asked the rep at the show why they did that because it looked odd and at the time ridiculous to me. No other vendor had their speakers towed in like that which is why it surprised me.. I think their response was around trying to get a better sound for the people sitting in the small room. Its nice to come full circle and get a new perspective!
Yup! I was there and when I saw that toe-in, I laughed! Well, who is laughing now!?
I am not a scientist and this is my thoughts as a man of little knowledge. Audiophiles go into minute detail on placement and take into account room acoustics and all aspects of how sound waves travel and are physically reflected and state how they can hear the minute differences that occur then they say point this speaker right across this one and show a diagram showing the directional waves crossing each other but apparently the crossing of the sound waves has no effect on the sound of the other speaker? We see how the sound waves on an open baffle speaker has an effect on sound over a box speaker etc. There is the combing effect where frequencies cancel each other out etc. I just find myself thinking that the sound waves of the speaker pointing directly at you must be affected by the crossing sound waves of the speaker pointing across it and away from you. The directional element seems logical with regard to sound intensity but the theory disregards and ignores that the. Crossing sound waves must affect each other in some way hence I find myself chin scratching. Either sound waves are very sensitive or they aren't. You can't really have it both ways😂 as I said I really don't know what I'm talking about but maybe entertain my idea for a while before laughing. Anyway I love audio and am a sucker for an idea so I had a night listening to my klipsch 🙃RP 150m speakers playing from my mono blocks in the extreme toe in position and didn't feel I liked the sound more than my weird and crazy SLIGHTLY TOED OUT POSITION!!!!!!! and tonight they're back like they were. I know I'm a crazy fool. How can I listen to my set up like that😂😂😂Anyway guys however you listen and whatever you listen to have fun👍
I've tried this extreme toe in, where the left speaker points to the right, and the right to the left, but I find the center image to be, not straight from left to right, but a bit off focus. So I've reverted to slight toe in, where the tweeters slightly point to my ears. This is a pair of KRK Rokit5's.
I have seen this being done at audioshows, in fact last year i saw mr ken ishiwata do that to a pair of sonus faber that were played with his marantz gear, they were toed in so much that they were crossed before the first row middle seat
Ive tried it before and It is great but you do lose some detail in the treble compared to "normal" toe in. I landed on a in between. Great video
BEST TIP EVER! ....and absolutely logical. THX Man!
Update/after 5-6 hours/: I can not stand my armchair.....one more track, one more track....and OK one more track 😁
This work only for big horn tweeters?
I tried several different positions with my monitor audio silver 600's, Yes I locked in better depths when going extreme ( used madonna's "celebration") where her opening is very obvious left right and bongos of to the right. However I also lost a lot of sound stage and seemed to lose a good portion of tonality. So I for one will stay with a slight toe in. Thanks for the info, it was fun experimenting.
We have a large L shaped couch. Definitely not great. Unfortunately circumstances force me to occasionally be on the worst corner. Toeing in speakers almost to the point where they are pointing at the other wall brings L/R back, even though I'm 12 feet from the L and about 3 from the R.
Awesome! Glad that’s working out for you!
And... the Klipsch don't sound as bright anymore and the imaging is awesome for my suboptimal room. This was the best tip of the day for me! Thanks :)
Still going to build the X-LS Encores though, but the Klipsch as the HT L/R pair are now perfect.