Love it! Great video man. I gotta say, I think you would love to sit in as I mix a track. Creating the sound stage is an art all in it's own. Balancing frequencies and imaging is so much fun and there are a lot of tricks we employ to create an awesome sound stage.
THIS WORKS. I do exactly this, but I do it differently because I have on-wall speakers-I simply move my seating position forwards and backwards. I agree with you that soundstage is “there are no speakers in the room” 100%. When the lights are off, you SHOULD be worried whether your speakers are still there. Your best video so far. Thanks!
Nearfield listening is very magical, and something that a lot of people never get to experience. It goes against all of the "nice" living room pics we see on the internet of home decorating. It's one of the first things i tried with my setups, and helps to eliminate a lot of "room acoustics". Unfortunately, unless you live alone, like I do, it's also hard to get other family members to accept. It is one reason why I prefer monitors on stands, as I can secretly mark the rug as to where the speaker sounds the best and then pull them out to that spot when I'm ready to listen, and still be able to push them back when I want the room to look normal. I think the improvement is such that I would even be willing to do this with bigger speakers if I had to.
Brother, I saw this video a year ago. I was skeptical but I followed your instructions. It made the BIGGEST improvement of anything I've done. My speakers became invisible at around 4 feet from the front wall, 6 ft apart, and no toe in.. It looks somewhat strange but the sound is now stunning and the system is "tuned" for the room and music sounds like it's truly in the room. I STRONGLY recommend everyone try this.
I tried it and holy cow, made a noticeable improvement. Including the part about moving the speakers further apart, and of course turning out the lights to zone in on the music. Simply genius. Thank you.
Good approach. A difficult task with 100 lb speakers though. Plus I would need to get some temporary speaker wire. Mine are only 3 meters. My approach was to get them as far into the room as I could and have a usable room. The sound stage is pretty good. The speakers disappear when the recording is good. Some recording are so bad it has nothing to do with speaker placement.
I agree with the philosophy of going beyond the sweet spot, and then working your way back to it. I do this when I set the low-end gain and crossover point, as well as any other adjustment for that matter. I learned to do this from mixing live music. However, there is a easier way to find a good starting point for your critical listening position. This is called the 1/3 principal, which is based on the physical shape of a sound wave. Simply speaking, it means the speakers position is 1/3, of total room length, from the front wall. The listing position is 1/3 from the speakers, which puts the listening position 1/3 from the back wall. An example room size; 18' x 12' the speakers would be 6' from the front wall, the listening position is 6' form the speakers and the back wall. Then place the speakers 6' apart @ 50 degree angle or toe, and centered within the room. Most people do not have a perfect shaped room, so this is only a starting point. Once you have a nice image, it can be centered by adjusting the toe, or angle of the speakers.
Loved this post, I've never started that far in, but I start pretty close and move them back after realizing my fight with the whole "am I hearing a GOOD change" when starting from the front or moving around someone's suggested "ideal" starting point. I end up pretty close like about 5.5-6ft from my listening position with my Maggie MMGs which are then about 5.5 feet from the rear wall. Toe in hasn't been measured but I'd say around 25-30 degrees. Can't locate them and there tracks where stuff is happening on right or left side of the right or left speaker, those are really cool moments (however they manage to mix things like that is beyond me but it's cool to hear).
Great advice. I just finished doing this and I am almost exactly where I started off...but about 4 inches closer to where I sit and a the speaker are about 6 inches further apart from one another. I think your method gives a great perspective on how much placement in a particular room matters as far as soundstage. You know you’ve achieved your moment of zen when the speakers disappear (in the dark, with your eyes closed, or even just doing some active listening) and you hear the vocals coming as though the singer was center stage in front of you. Now I’m playing with toed-in versus parallel/fully front facing with these KEF LS-50’s!
So, Matt -- following this technique, do we save toe-in variable to the last adjustment? After finding speaker position? What is toe-in during the whole process? Straight ahead, no toe-in and 7 feet apart?
I was skeptical when I watched this. But, as I love experimenting, I gave it a try. Moved each of my two speakers 7 feet away from me - total span of 14 feet from speaker to speaker. Listened in the dark, closing my eyes to boot. Magic struck when I moved my speakers 36 inches off the wall (measured from the back of the speaker). I was using Steely Dan's Gaucho (specifically Hey Nineteen) for testing. Was actually startled by some of the background vocals, because they came at me from a different direction! Haven't fiddled with toe-in since making this change. Just enjoying the stunning soundstage I was missing before. I'm sold.
Right. Moving speakers towards a front wall one foot at the time until "speakers disappear". Now, do you have any advise on toe-in speakers? As a distance between speaker and front wall could be same, however toe-in angle will be (high likely) different for each speaker... Have you experimented with it?
Fantastic methodology. I did a similar thing, but what I did was find my best wall placement first. It was 12-14 inches. Then I found the arrangement for width of the room. Then I did your process. Here's what is the key. I took measurements to form a box around that area encompassing the speakers and my sitting position. Then I moved that box to align with my wall placement distance. After that I focus on the tweeter reference level. I literally sit on pillows to adjust and find that. I've even hung a string off my ear to measure the distance once I found it. After all this you have perfect soundstage.
Ahaha, what timing - started doing the exact same thing recently with my Yammy NS1000m and I've now been staying up till the wee hours of the morning just enjoying the all-encompassing canvases! Thanks my man 😊
Sounds stage is truly the magic of great hifi. It's the holy grail for me, and I'm always tweaking for even incremental improvements. This sounds like a great approach to maximizing the sound stage. I can't wait to give it a try. My speakers are currently 7 feet into the room. Luckily I have a long basement room that my wife has agreed to let me set up as I desire. What a great wife! It will be interesting to see where they end up using this method.
Finally a good explanation of what sound stage sounds like. I would always say that you hear it coming from every place except the speakers...The Dynaudio Sapphire speakers have a sound stage that comes from some magical place behind them... I would only differ on what track to play. I find that on that same Dynaudio setup, some recording simply have no sound stage at all. Great video. Thanks
Thank you for putting words to this phenomena. Many times throughout my speaker playing career I've locked into exactly what you are describing, the 3d sound via speaker placement which is so easily lost with just a slight move here or there. You've reinvigorated me to get back into the game and try your method, there is hope.
"Thank you for putting words to this phenomena" Lexicon and many others put words to this phenomena many years ago, its called Audio Imagining!!!! After all, what the hell do you think they were working on when the industry created Stereo!
klarion sinn , you are just IMAGINING that he claimed he was the first to put into words, audio IMAGING. He just thanked him for sharing it with people who are not familiar with audio IMAGING. I can only IMAGINE you now understand the true intention of his comment. Repeat after me... 🎶 It was just my IMAGINATION, once again, runnin’ away with me. 🎶
Soundstage relies on accuracy meaning not only the sound is accurate but also the timing when each sound from each of the two speakers hits your ears. There is no soundstage with only one speaker or if you can only hear from one ear nor will you have it when the triangle between you and the speakers is out of alignment. And you will not have it with bad speakers because each driver must be perfectly aligned with the others so no sound, low or high frequency, hits your ears before the other. So while this exercise could help you to get closer, there is a lot more to it so don’t expect wonders ;) i still like your approach.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS, i never knew i was missing this much, i have a good setup but always wanted more until this tip, now i get what 3D sound is wow just wow. setup is diy hivi swan m1's - AMPS are dayton audio apa100 class a/b and crown xls 1000- subs are 2 hivi m12's and dayton audio reference hf 15, please keep up the good vids !!! speakers ended up for me 6ft apart an 5ft from back wall
Ron, fantastic video! This made my old, terrible speakers sound much better, and I have better ones on the way. Question, though: you said to start with the speakers about 7 ft apart. Is that just a set distance? Or should there be some way to choose that distance? Is it just that speakers disappear when they get into the position of an equilateral triangle? Thanks.
agree with you soundstage is key criteria for me as well. the other criteria is imaging and layering. If they are in harmony, then it's nirvana. The way you start by lining yourself parralel to the speakers (without looking) is just pure genius! Absolutely, by listening to the worst then progressing slowly to the best sound quality position by moving the speaker back, is brilliant! Thank YOU!!! You should make more videos like this!!!
speakers disappear why I don't use a powered sub in my 2 channel listing but I feel ya been audiophile 31 years and back in the game wide open !! Thanks Dave
Were you able to use this technique to achieve satisfactory transparency with the Tekton Impact Towers? Also, at what point in this method do you start thinking about toe-in (I assume throughout your description here you are using zero toe-in).
Good question! I always do toe-in last and rarely have speakers pointing directly at me, I normally have them straight into the room or just hitting my shoulders.
Was thinking the same. Different for different speakers ... But ... i seem to end up in a similar position for many ... Just outside directly at you - you can see a small section of the inside (side) of each speaker.
My DI’s seem to sound best with maybe at most 2 or 3 degrees of toe in. While their high frequency dispersion is hardly class leading and their cabinets are somewhat resonant at lower freqs, I can get these monsters to do a good disappearing act by bringing them into the room and away from front and side walls as much as possible, given their imposing size. Cheers!
I agree with the importance of it being at night. I am also thoroughly convinced that use of tTHC is also key. I can be listening just fine, burn one down, and within minutes my ears completely open up. Like night and day difference. While I'm sure plenty of us out there know this, I cannot recommend this enough if you're a serious or aspiring audiophile.
This method for adjusting the speaker position doesn't differentiate between adjusting speaker orientation (toe in) and adjusting azimuth. I can get better clarity from the speakers 90° to my left and right by rotating them toward me so that I am hearing them on axis rather than off axis, but there will still be a gaping hole in the middle in front of me rather than a plausible phantom center illusion. I think you should always point the speaker axis toward you and move the speakers forward until you hear a plausible phantom center illusion. Speaker angular separation might still be too wide and need to be reduced. I agree with the "listen in the dark" part. I am also a firm believer in Reflection Free Zone RFZ room treatment. Speakers produce sound that reflects from listening room surfaces. Phantom stereophonic illusions produce no sound. If you are listening to the speaker on-axis, off-axis speaker sound is reflected to you from the listening room surfaces. Listening room reflections of off-axis speaker sound arrive at the listener preceding recorded music venue reflections of singers and musical instruments. Speaker directionality and phantom illusion position does not replicate the coincident directionality and position of singers and musical instruments in the music venue.
Very cool! I’m finding that while this did help create an over all nicer presentation, the recording of choice really is the mitigating factor. Some stuff sounds ghostly and amazing while others can sound like the performers are in my lap.
This assumes that one would accommodate to any distance from front wall, however if not, one would need to change the distance between speakers and start the process again. I guess increasing will have the effect of pushing further away from you, so closer to the wall. There should be a limit of closing, where the wall will have effect on the sound. At least this is how I think. BTW, one may change its position by moving from the speakers backwards, instead of moving the speakers. When the Soundstage is there just measure the distance and place the speakers to this distance from the listening position.
Interesting exercise. My speaker cables are 10-foot lengths so I may not quite get them to my listening position. I guess I could use the 12AWG speaker cable laying around that are not my Audience cables and then swap them when I find the right location. Thanks, Ron.
Re: not hearing the speaker, What about on tracks that are mixed more like 'dual mono'? i.e. tracks where some instruments are hard left or hard right, like in many of the tracks from the 2009 Beatles remaster? In this case, should the instrument still not sound like it's coming from the speaker?
The recording angle>? you might want to lookup recording techniques having some sort of symmetry , and a triangle is not that weird.. since allot of the recording techniques are based on those. you can do as you please ofcourse, no one stopping you. but thats like using you EQ to tailor the smiley . witch is fine to but it is not a divine representation of what was the idea behind the way it was either mixed or recorded. especially the spatial X/Y setups used often.
@Gryff Longprong i hope so :) but i must admit i had a hard time reading it myself! i have to watch the whole thing again to even know where i was going. i might not be from this planet at that particular moment i wrote that post.. :)
What timing... I didn’t do exactly what you mentioned, but I did start listening with the lights off at night recently and then found myself tweaking the speaker location until, as you say, poof - the speakers vanished and I was sitting in the room with the musicians not only in front of me, but as far back as to seem to come from behind the front wall.
I've been either too lazy or worried it would work... so I hadn't really pulled these things out past 5 feet, so this vidi was like a challenge... and to both my delight and horror the speakers responded positively... 8 or more feet out from the short wall in a 24x48 foot room. Sound is groovin' after halfway back... open baffle setup, big drivers. I guess the listening chair will go right about between the welder and the chop saw...
Stereo imaging is non-existent. It's also difficult to listen to because it's so distracting. The modern mixes have corrected this, but if you have the old, uncorrected mixes, then it would be great to find a technique to deal with this...
@@Newrecordday2013 thanks for responding. not trying to be a smart ass. I just always close my eyes like a wierdo when listening to my speakers since I believed it sounded just a tad bettter. Seems like I was doing something right all along since you recommend listening this way to determine how good the soundstage is.
I actually do something similar to turning out the lights but I can do this during the day search amazon for "Bucky 40 Blinks Comfortable, Contoured, No Pressure Eye Mask for Travel & Sleep" This is a sleep mask that doesn't press on your eyes so you can have them wide open in the dark. It's so easy to follow images moving in space with this sleep mask. It's like turning the lights out but now it's perfectly dark. It's like when you have someone speaking to you in a perfectly dark room, you know where they are and can imagine where the person is standing and even see them in your head. It's fantastic!
My listening room is 8' x 14' If I move the speakers out into my listening area as you recommend, they begin very close to my side walls. Your tutorial recommends moving them incrementally backward, but never do you mention moving them incrementally closer to each other. What am I missing here?
Well its recommended that you have an equal distance from your ears to the speakers and between the speakers themselves. So if you bring the speakers closer together then you need to sit closer as well
I have played around with speaker placement before and similar to what your talking about, I place my speakers a foot or 18 inches in front me and have the speakers pointed at each other. You have to have the tweeters ear level so your sweet spot is very tiny but holy hell does it sound amazing. I put on tracks of nature sounds and when I close my eyes, it sound exactly like real life. I played a track of bird sounds, and I would have sworn the birds were flying around the room. Music tracks are amazing too because the vocals on most tracks sound like they are coming in front of you. The instruments sound like they are inside the room. Obviously downsides are the sweet spot is very small and not everyone can put speakers right in front of you. But some positives are that they sound amazingly life like and you don’t need to turn them on very loud. And for people saying this is crazy, please do us a favor and try this for yourself to see what happens before you criticize others. Hell, get the cheapest speakers you can, place them a foot from your face and point them at each other. I promise you, it will sound amazing.
Hey Ron. I’m really struggling with soundstage and making my speakers disappear as this is my ultimate goal. Sorry for this newbie question but here we go. I’m using a pair of Vandersteen 2C’s which should image like crazy. I’m wondering if the older Yamaha AV receiver is my problem. Will an upgrade to something like a Schiit Saga make much of a difference? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Hank, Great question! I doubt the change in the amp is going to take a speaker that struggled with staging and completely transform it. Try my method outlined in this tutorial and let me know what happens. If you dont get some staging out of the speakers while trying this, I would say the issue is either the speaker themselves or the room acoustics.
Hi Ron. Thanks so much for getting back to me. I’m sorry I was not clear. I do get soundstage and the speakers almost disappear but with most music I can still tell where the speakers are. I do have bass traps and 5 absorbers. Maybe I’m too over damped.? I’ll try your method but I would swear I’ve had the speakers in just about every position. Very frustrating. Thanks again for your help!
Hank Nalley Hi Hank, I do think that by swapping your AVR to a dedicated 2 channel amp you’ll get closer to what you are looking for, especially speakers that already have good soundstage. For example, my AVR receiver sounds good with my speakers but once I upgraded to my 2 channel tube amp it does things with soundstage that my receiver could never get close to. I do switch back forth when watching movies but when I want to experience sound that surrounds me I switch over to my 2 channel amplifier.
I find all speaker placement with home theater is easier than 2 channel stereo. The changes are easier to detect....so easier from that perspective, however, more effort due to more speakers and essentially multiple soundstages. For simplicity sake a rear & front soundstage. The perfect seating position is where those two stages merge.
An amazingly useful video. For me, resolution is king, and I suppose that this requires a great sound stage. I’ve never heard of this technique before, but I’ve noticed that standing between the speakers and looking back at the guests with their mouths open as I play their favorite artist, that is fun!
Would you recommend doing the same (but perhaps scaled-down) in a small dj/studio booth in my basement? If what you say is true, my mixes and studio work could sound more rich.
your mixes probably already sounds pretty rich. It's my understanding that most studios don't set their gear up like that because of SBIR issues. They mount the speakers in the wall to get the best sound for what they're using them for. The problem is to really make your speakers sing, you have move em out into the room. Mine are 85 inches from the front wall to the speakers baffle. I've also heard some of the studio engineer guys mix on a rig not to unlike one you might have. Then they listen to it on their HiFi system to really enjoy their work. Regards,
Interesting. My vintage preamp has the Carver sonic holography which produces amazing imaging with certain recordings. I'm talking sounds 7 feet either side of speakers. Preamp came with setup album, drawings and measurements. Not every recording is that impressive. I wonder if this setup works for ALL recordings? Alot of work scooting 80lb speakers around.
I'm going to do this test. Right now, my tower speakers are pointed to my listening seating position. Is that wrong? Looks like from your instructions, the 2 speakers' side wall are parallel to each other.
@@Newrecordday2013 How about for Magnepan? I'd assume same situation, right now I have the tweeters pointed in a way that if I had a laser coming off the tweeter section it would intersect a little in front of me with tweeters in. I hear a good center image but things on the side of the soundstage do at times sound like they are coming from the speakers depending on the track. I haven't figured out if I want the intersection to be in front of me, on me, or behind me. Then again some people have Maggies pointed almost straight forward with and almost no toe in.
@@freezerburn6454 Magnepans with the tweeter In is a bit tricky and can make the sweet spot small and a bit elusive. Things to think about with a laser as you said the tweeter should be coming straight at your ears on each side to start and than move your head forward and back to see where the sweet spot is . the mistake Maggie listeners make is having the bass panel in the wrong position and that really messes up the sound stage Magnepan and I have found you want the bass panel 1/2 inch to 1 inch closer to you than the tweeter. this is what become very hard with the tweeters in. if you do it as he says above work your way back ignore all the Maggie rules to start find where there best than toe them in to where the bass panel is where I said and then play with ok where are the tweeters now you can get magic. I would also do it again with the tweeters out to see what works best. I like the tweeters out for a couple reasons I have a chair on each side of my chair so I'm trying to make not only the sound stage larger but with them out the bass panels are in the right position compared to the tweeter. The bass is slower to your ear the the highs if the bass panel is back compared to the tweeter it compounds the affect. I find with the tweeters out the chairs on the side get a better more centered soundstage than tweeters in. But try it both ways.
New Record Day are you adjusting toe in after you have the right distance? Toe in can make quite a bit of difference so I’m trying to discern where in the process this happens.
Great to see you man! Great topic for the episode. Love your definition of sound stage, I think I will make it mine also. Very interesting commentary. I am going to try the Ron method of setting up sound stage, using Led Zeppelin's You Shook Me. Man thanks for this video, great work. You, and your family have a fantastic Frequency Friday!
Well done. Really enjoyed this video. If only my wife would allow the speakers farther out into the room. The alternate for me was to add more absorption on the wall behind the speakers to provide a deeper soundstage. Not as good, but all I could get away with.
I believe some of the sound stage has to come from how the record ( music ) was processed. Not sure of this but I was told that many years ago and your not going to get sound stage from every song or not that good
I think Ron has something here but I totally agree with you in regards to the recording. I definitely know the songs in my playlist that have a magical effect and the ones that sound like everything is coming from just one plane.
true any sound engineer will tell you your not getting what was the artist sounded like in the studio and only what sounds best or what the the artist wants you to here
That won't work, because the speaker sound change in relation to the room walls. So, changing your position relative to the speakers does not afect the percieved sound so much when compared to changing speakers position relative to you and also to room walls.
Andy, I once thought like you. That is until I was able to pull off HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGING. I didn't belive what I was hearing. It's a complete game changer and shouldn't be disregarded. We all have room issues, REW and mini DSP help out tons. But that help usually comes at the cost of musical dynamics. I've spent countless hours looking at the same room mode calculator printout to find that optimal subwoofer location. The true is, once your room absorbsion and diffusion treatments are in order, find the best place for your speakers and the magic creates the rest. The room becomes the speaker. When done right, You can sit 1 foot in front of the speaker and not hear sound coming from it. The room is now the speaker. With that, even though we don't have perfect rooms, the music we hear will be musical. Even the notes that don't measure well will sound musical. It may not sound as awesome as a system that has all the bells and whistles but it's musical. I'd take a just okay quality budget system with holographic imaging over an expensive, ill adjusted, non treated room any day of the week. The budget will system will beat the high end system every time. Once i got this dialed in, I discconnected the mini dsp, turned off all forms of room eq software, and only use pure direct now. It sounds tons better that way. But only once i got the imaging figured out.
Liked. Subscribed. I listen to a pair of Klipsch KG4's. About 4.5 feet from the wall behind them, 4.5 feet apart center to center, 4 feet from my ears. I just measured. With some clean, simple music, say a singer, guitar, piano, and bass. With the grills off and the lights on. Not only does the sound not come from the speakers, but if I look directly at a speaker, it is obvious that those two woofers and that steampunk-looking horn could not possibly have anything to do with the sound of Emmylou Harris's voice that I'm listening to.
That is with the speakers straight ahead... so when the speakers disappear, do you then start toe in and rake to tighten up the center image? Also Ron, I am on a quest to find a bookshelf and a tower speaker, using the IOTA amp, that will best reproduce PIANO! I cannot find a speaker that does it without fatiguing my ears off. I have tried Kef, Boston, JBL, Klipsch... do you have any suggestions?
Pianos are hard to make sound right because they are usually recorded so badly. Microphone perspective does not replicate realistic ear perspective. Listeners have no control over what happens in recording. We can't compensate for recording mistakes in playback. We hate to bypass a great performance because of a terrible recording.
I tired your method and it did magic... :) Watched many videos on soundstage and image so far, honestly no one else talked about this. It's like you revealed the magic trick... thanks!!!... I got few follow-up questions, please let me know your thoughts on that. 1)Is it possible to get the soundstage for all three chairs in the row? With methods like extreme tow in? Currently I get the sound stage only from center chair. 2) Should the equilateral triangle still be maintained between the listening position and the speakers. Distance between listening position and speaker is much lesser at the point where speakers are disappearing. 3) how far the speaker should be away from the side wall? I have some limitations here on my home theater which would block the view if pulled beyond 2 ft from side wall. Distance between the speakers are 9ft. The speakers I use are klipsch rp280f.... My room dimensions : 14ft wide and 19 ft long... Seating position is 11 feet from the front wall.
You do not need to turn off any light if you have a good enough system but be aware of any small powersuplies like phone-chargers, they produces a lot of distortion
Its not about electrical interference it is about peeking of the senses. By turning out the lights you are making your brain focus on sound as a survival technique. When you cant see your surroundings your brain automatically enhances your hearing. Also as he describes in the video, you are focusing on where the sound is coming from. By not being able to see the speakers you are not expecting the sound to come from their direction. You want your mind to think the sound is coming from any and all directions. I have a set of speakers that in 2 channel mode sounds like some sounds are coming from behind you. That is a good soundstage as the whole environment surrounds you without having surround sound.
Love the darkness idea. Love starting with obviously bad and working towards not-so-obvious good. But I PROMISE you, there's parts I don't understand. The speakers are 7 feet apart and close to you at the START. Are they toed in at all? How much? How do you change toe-in as you move speakers back? And do you keep speakers 7 feet apart as you move them back towards the front wall? Hmmm. If yes, then you are having three variables -- distance from listening position to speakers, distance of speakers from front wall, and the ratio of both -- and controlling two non-variables -- listening position distance from front wall and distance between speakers. Seems iffy to me. But I will try. I have done extensive experience in near-field listening at my desk and have been blown away to hear sound sources on some recordings, like a banjo, from WAAY outside the speaker position, while pinpointing the lead vocals flat in the middle. Pretty cool. Neumann KH120 speakers and PSAudio GainCell DAC. Wonderful combo that far exceeds my previous favorite -- Sennheiser HD600 headphones. I finally have speakers that sound better than really good headphones. Now I need to work on my main system -- all PS Audio electronics and Tannoy Cheviot speakers in a non-ideal room. Thanks.
My take was, no toe-in at the beginning. Keep the speaker straight, facing the wall on your back. As you have found the best location, apply the desired toe-in and evaluate whether it makes any difference in you setup.
@@NicolaDiNisio Thanks, Nicola. What about distance between speakers? Experiment with that before or after toe-in? (It's funny, I find with most guys, they (1) place speakers as far away from the front wall as is allowed by the wife, (2) then experiment with distance between speakers, (3) then finally, toe-in.) Listening position and speakers distance from front wall are usually the two non-variables. One final tip from a non-pro. If you light a bowl before turning off the lights, your speakers will always sound better.
@@HAL9007 I have setup the speaker 2m apart, and with the usual toe-in. In the end the winning position resulted to be the classic equilateral triangle, with the speakers and myself forming an equilateral triangle, with each side measuring 2 meters, and about 1 meter free room behind the speakers and behind my back. The resulting soundstage, as well as tonal balance is so much better that I have marked the listening position and the speakers' position on the floor with black tape. I cannot leave the speakers in the middle of the living room during the day, but when I am listening to my stereo, I will definitely move the speakers to the new found place and I will sit where the black tape is!
@@NicolaDiNisio My experience is pretty close to yours. I toe-in half the difference between straight ahead and pointed at my head. It's a pain in the butt to move my speakers out to the prime, "lights out" position -- Tannoy Cheviots, 65 lbs ea. (I also tilt them back about 5 degrees which improved them immensely. And I use isoAcoustics GAIA III which made big difference.) Thanks for the help. Stay safe out there. ~ Hoyt from Fredericksburg, VA USA.
Hey allen0088 👍 Love to have heard the ‘Sound Stage’ in his house after he finished this video. Anyone else see the wife, in her nightie, stop and stare at him on her way to wherever. You better get a lawyer New Record Day guy coz sitting in the dark making videos for RUclips won’t keep her happy haha
Not me but my cousin, when he was just learning how to tune his guitar and he can't get it right, he would make the string more out of tune and start all over again
Guys my system is killing me , its sounds “ stereophonic “ when I say put my two hands behind my ears, and everything just stands up , holographic , pin point , but then when I put my hands down ... the sound stage just fall down... I tried toe in , etc., Could it just be adding more absorption to the room to clean up the reflections? Thank you all for the advice , i just want to be in that STEREO BUBBLE! I want to sit next to BILL EVANS and Bob Marley , I don’t want to just sit behind the club ! I want to be there as the mic ! Lol ! HELPPPPP ~
My current soundstage with Harbeth 40.2 in a 18x23 (with openings) room is fantastic even on older recordings. There is a complete 3D bubble of sound around the entirety of each speaker. Im love how things are finally shaping up in my system after a decade of trying to get there.
Will have to try this for music, to be sure, but not for movies. When watching movies with a 2.0 system I need the sound to be coming from where the picture is, and nowhere else. As long as we don't have the technology to make the picture surround me, the sound shouldn't surround me either, or it will break the immersion. And with music the thing I will be curious about with this method is if it can replicate on speakers the kind of immersion you get on headphones (on some tracks).
In order to get a good soundstage you have to have a decent CD player or turntable. In my experience a cheap CD player will sound like you pushed the mono button in. A good CD player will give you a better stereo soundstage.
Solo operatic voice. I elevated my stereo speakers at 5 feet and they are just 4 o 5 feet apart. I'm just 3 feet away. The voice is neither on the right nor the left, I got terrified coz the soprano's mouth is in front of my face !!
Love it! Great video man. I gotta say, I think you would love to sit in as I mix a track. Creating the sound stage is an art all in it's own. Balancing frequencies and imaging is so much fun and there are a lot of tricks we employ to create an awesome sound stage.
Dude for sure! Thanks for watching!
THIS WORKS. I do exactly this, but I do it differently because I have on-wall speakers-I simply move my seating position forwards and backwards. I agree with you that soundstage is “there are no speakers in the room” 100%. When the lights are off, you SHOULD be worried whether your speakers are still there. Your best video so far. Thanks!
Nearfield listening is very magical, and something that a lot of people never get to experience. It goes against all of the "nice"
living room pics we see on the internet of home decorating. It's one of the first things i tried with my setups, and helps to eliminate a lot of "room acoustics". Unfortunately, unless you live alone, like I do, it's also hard to get other family members to accept. It is one reason why I prefer monitors on stands, as I can secretly mark the rug as to where the speaker sounds the best and then pull them out to that spot when I'm ready to listen, and still be able to push them back when I want the room to look normal. I think the improvement is such that I would even be willing to do this with bigger speakers if I had to.
Brother, I saw this video a year ago. I was skeptical but I followed your instructions. It made the BIGGEST improvement of anything I've done. My speakers became invisible at around 4 feet from the front wall, 6 ft apart, and no toe in.. It looks somewhat strange but the sound is now stunning and the system is "tuned" for the room and music sounds like it's truly in the room. I STRONGLY recommend everyone try this.
I tried it and holy cow, made a noticeable improvement. Including the part about moving the speakers further apart, and of course turning out the lights to zone in on the music. Simply genius. Thank you.
Good approach. A difficult task with 100 lb speakers though. Plus I would need to get some temporary speaker wire. Mine are only 3 meters. My approach was to get them as far into the room as I could and have a usable room. The sound stage is pretty good. The speakers disappear when the recording is good. Some recording are so bad it has nothing to do with speaker placement.
I agree with the philosophy of going beyond the sweet spot, and then working your way back to it. I do this when I set the low-end gain and crossover point, as well as any other adjustment for that matter. I learned to do this from mixing live music. However, there is a easier way to find a good starting point for your critical listening position. This is called the 1/3 principal, which is based on the physical shape of a sound wave. Simply speaking, it means the speakers position is 1/3, of total room length, from the front wall. The listing position is 1/3 from the speakers, which puts the listening position 1/3 from the back wall. An example room size; 18' x 12' the speakers would be 6' from the front wall, the listening position is 6' form the speakers and the back wall. Then place the speakers 6' apart @ 50 degree angle or toe, and centered within the room. Most people do not have a perfect shaped room, so this is only a starting point. Once you have a nice image, it can be centered by adjusting the toe, or angle of the speakers.
... aka; H.P.'s "rule of thirds"
Loved this post, I've never started that far in, but I start pretty close and move them back after realizing my fight with the whole "am I hearing a GOOD change" when starting from the front or moving around someone's suggested "ideal" starting point. I end up pretty close like about 5.5-6ft from my listening position with my Maggie MMGs which are then about 5.5 feet from the rear wall. Toe in hasn't been measured but I'd say around 25-30 degrees. Can't locate them and there tracks where stuff is happening on right or left side of the right or left speaker, those are really cool moments (however they manage to mix things like that is beyond me but it's cool to hear).
A similar idea is to close the eyes :)
Great advice. I just finished doing this and I am almost exactly where I started off...but about 4 inches closer to where I sit and a the speaker are about 6 inches further apart from one another. I think your method gives a great perspective on how much placement in a particular room matters as far as soundstage. You know you’ve achieved your moment of zen when the speakers disappear (in the dark, with your eyes closed, or even just doing some active listening) and you hear the vocals coming as though the singer was center stage in front of you. Now I’m playing with toed-in versus parallel/fully front facing with these KEF LS-50’s!
Thanks Matt!
So, Matt -- following this technique, do we save toe-in variable to the last adjustment? After finding speaker position? What is toe-in during the whole process? Straight ahead, no toe-in and 7 feet apart?
the definition of sound stage what he described, for me, absolutely true.
I DID IT! I took your advice and it worked! Then I kept moving my speakers and I lost it!!
I was skeptical when I watched this. But, as I love experimenting, I gave it a try. Moved each of my two speakers 7 feet away from me - total span of 14 feet from speaker to speaker. Listened in the dark, closing my eyes to boot. Magic struck when I moved my speakers 36 inches off the wall (measured from the back of the speaker). I was using Steely Dan's Gaucho (specifically Hey Nineteen) for testing. Was actually startled by some of the background vocals, because they came at me from a different direction! Haven't fiddled with toe-in since making this change. Just enjoying the stunning soundstage I was missing before. I'm sold.
Right. Moving speakers towards a front wall one foot at the time until "speakers disappear".
Now, do you have any advise on toe-in speakers? As a distance between speaker and front wall could be same, however toe-in angle will be (high likely) different for each speaker...
Have you experimented with it?
Fantastic methodology. I did a similar thing, but what I did was find my best wall placement first. It was 12-14 inches. Then I found the arrangement for width of the room. Then I did your process. Here's what is the key. I took measurements to form a box around that area encompassing the speakers and my sitting position. Then I moved that box to align with my wall placement distance. After that I focus on the tweeter reference level. I literally sit on pillows to adjust and find that. I've even hung a string off my ear to measure the distance once I found it. After all this you have perfect soundstage.
Ahaha, what timing - started doing the exact same thing recently with my Yammy NS1000m and I've now been staying up till the wee hours of the morning just enjoying the all-encompassing canvases! Thanks my man 😊
Sounds stage is truly the magic of great hifi. It's the holy grail for me, and I'm always tweaking for even incremental improvements. This sounds like a great approach to maximizing the sound stage. I can't wait to give it a try. My speakers are currently 7 feet into the room. Luckily I have a long basement room that my wife has agreed to let me set up as I desire. What a great wife! It will be interesting to see where they end up using this method.
Keep me posted Wes!
Finally a good explanation of what sound stage sounds like. I would always say that you hear it coming from every place except the speakers...The Dynaudio Sapphire speakers have a sound stage that comes from some magical place behind them... I would only differ on what track to play. I find that on that same Dynaudio setup, some recording simply have no sound stage at all. Great video. Thanks
Thank you very much @Ron , but now I have a broken back trying to lift one of my B&W 803 D2's .........🤕
😂🤣😆😬
Thank you for putting words to this phenomena. Many times throughout my speaker playing career I've locked into exactly what you are describing, the 3d sound via speaker placement which is so easily lost with just a slight move here or there. You've reinvigorated me to get back into the game and try your method, there is hope.
"Thank you for putting words to this phenomena" Lexicon and many others put words to this phenomena many years ago, its called Audio Imagining!!!! After all, what the hell do you think they were working on when the industry created Stereo!
klarion sinn , you are just IMAGINING that he claimed he was the first to put into words, audio IMAGING. He just thanked him for sharing it with people who are not familiar with audio IMAGING.
I can only IMAGINE you now understand the true intention of his comment.
Repeat after me...
🎶 It was just my IMAGINATION, once again, runnin’ away with me. 🎶
Soundstage relies on accuracy meaning not only the sound is accurate but also the timing when each sound from each of the two speakers hits your ears. There is no soundstage with only one speaker or if you can only hear from one ear nor will you have it when the triangle between you and the speakers is out of alignment. And you will not have it with bad speakers because each driver must be perfectly aligned with the others so no sound, low or high frequency, hits your ears before the other. So while this exercise could help you to get closer, there is a lot more to it so don’t expect wonders ;) i still like your approach.
How refreshing!! Newer sub here, but quickly becoming a thought-provoked fan. Thanks.
Rad! Glad you are having fun!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS, i never knew i was missing this much, i have a good setup but always wanted more until this tip, now i get what 3D sound is wow just wow. setup is diy hivi swan m1's - AMPS are dayton audio apa100 class a/b and crown xls 1000- subs are 2 hivi m12's and dayton audio reference hf 15, please keep up the good vids !!! speakers ended up for me 6ft apart an 5ft from back wall
Dude I’m so glad it worked out well for you
@@Newrecordday2013 thanks for the info
Will give this a try to see if they end up in the same spot that they are now. Thanks Ron.
Ron, fantastic video! This made my old, terrible speakers sound much better, and I have better ones on the way. Question, though: you said to start with the speakers about 7 ft apart. Is that just a set distance? Or should there be some way to choose that distance? Is it just that speakers disappear when they get into the position of an equilateral triangle? Thanks.
agree with you soundstage is key criteria for me as well. the other criteria is imaging and layering. If they are in harmony, then it's nirvana. The way you start by lining yourself parralel to the speakers (without looking) is just pure genius! Absolutely, by listening to the worst then progressing slowly to the best sound quality position by moving the speaker back, is brilliant! Thank YOU!!! You should make more videos like this!!!
Thanks Barney! Glad you enjoyed!
Hey Ron, could you check your FB, I posted a question for you, I think your fan base would greatly benefit from your sharing.
Sound stage is the thing that I'm always trying to squeeze more out of. Any hints and tips on how to improve are always welcome. Thanks! :)
Hope this helps man!
speakers disappear why I don't use a powered sub in my 2 channel listing but I feel ya been audiophile 31 years and back in the game wide open !! Thanks Dave
Were you able to use this technique to achieve satisfactory transparency with the Tekton Impact Towers? Also, at what point in this method do you start thinking about toe-in (I assume throughout your description here you are using zero toe-in).
Good question! I always do toe-in last and rarely have speakers pointing directly at me, I normally have them straight into the room or just hitting my shoulders.
Was thinking the same. Different for different speakers ... But ... i seem to end up in a similar position for many ... Just outside directly at you - you can see a small section of the inside (side) of each speaker.
My DI’s seem to sound best with maybe at most 2 or 3 degrees of toe in. While their high frequency dispersion is hardly class leading and their cabinets are somewhat resonant at lower freqs, I can get these monsters to do a good disappearing act by bringing them into the room and away from front and side walls as much as possible, given their imposing size. Cheers!
I agree with the importance of it being at night. I am also thoroughly convinced that use of tTHC is also key. I can be listening just fine, burn one down, and within minutes my ears completely open up. Like night and day difference. While I'm sure plenty of us out there know this, I cannot recommend this enough if you're a serious or aspiring audiophile.
hi
Would you recommend to do the same method for the side wall ? Starting with speakers very close and then moving away to side wall ?
Thanks for this one man! At the Pawnshop was a new one for me. Sounds fabulous!
This method for adjusting the speaker position doesn't differentiate between adjusting speaker orientation (toe in) and adjusting azimuth. I can get better clarity from the speakers 90° to my left and right by rotating them toward me so that I am hearing them on axis rather than off axis, but there will still be a gaping hole in the middle in front of me rather than a plausible phantom center illusion. I think you should always point the speaker axis toward you and move the speakers forward until you hear a plausible phantom center illusion. Speaker angular separation might still be too wide and need to be reduced. I agree with the "listen in the dark" part. I am also a firm believer in Reflection Free Zone RFZ room treatment. Speakers produce sound that reflects from listening room surfaces. Phantom stereophonic illusions produce no sound. If you are listening to the speaker on-axis, off-axis speaker sound is reflected to you from the listening room surfaces. Listening room reflections of off-axis speaker sound arrive at the listener preceding recorded music venue reflections of singers and musical instruments. Speaker directionality and phantom illusion position does not replicate the coincident directionality and position of singers and musical instruments in the music venue.
Very cool! I’m finding that while this did help create an over all nicer presentation, the recording of choice really is the mitigating factor. Some stuff sounds ghostly and amazing while others can sound like the performers are in my lap.
I have my near fields setup perfect for this. It’s like I’m in my own bubble. And in that bubble is my own concert.
This assumes that one would accommodate to any distance from front wall, however if not, one would need to change the distance between speakers and start the process again. I guess increasing will have the effect of pushing further away from you, so closer to the wall. There should be a limit of closing, where the wall will have effect on the sound. At least this is how I think. BTW, one may change its position by moving from the speakers backwards, instead of moving the speakers. When the Soundstage is there just measure the distance and place the speakers to this distance from the listening position.
This is flippin' genius! Thank you x 1000!
Thanks man! Glad you found it useful!
Fun idea. Creative idea. Good idea. Thank you.
Ron, have you heard the LS50? I think their soundstage is one of the best at close up listening.
Watching this with a pair of Grado sr325s on my head thru a Topping DAC, Just subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
I had that feeling before. But what do you think about mixing in that stage of the speakers sounding like that?
My problem is having two 1/4 wave subs and two planers. Could get tricky.
Interesting exercise. My speaker cables are 10-foot lengths so I may not quite get them to my listening position. I guess I could use the 12AWG speaker cable laying around that are not my Audience cables and then swap them when I find the right location. Thanks, Ron.
Re: not hearing the speaker,
What about on tracks that are mixed more like 'dual mono'? i.e. tracks where some instruments are hard left or hard right, like in many of the tracks from the 2009 Beatles remaster? In this case, should the instrument still not sound like it's coming from the speaker?
I don't think you'll create any magic with those. hehe, asking the speaker to be a ventriloquist in that use case, I think...
You did not mention 'toe-in'.
Really enjoy your hifi talk. I am subscribed.
I’m gonna redo this video soon and make it legit. I’ll make sure I discuss toe-in as well.
New Record Day looking forward to the update.
New subscriber
Excellent production and content!
Welcome aboard my man!
Bang on intro Ron.
QUESTION ------ turn em by 90° facing directly backwards or slightly less but just enough so you cant see the buffle?
All good, it already got answered in another question.
After you do this, is there a point in installing sound diffusers and absorbers?
For sure! Always! Absorption and diffusion is needed regardless of speaker position.
The recording angle>? you might want to lookup recording techniques having some sort of symmetry , and a triangle is not that weird.. since allot of the recording techniques are based on those. you can do as you please ofcourse, no one stopping you. but thats like using you EQ to tailor the smiley . witch is fine to but it is not a divine representation of what was the idea behind the way it was either mixed or recorded. especially the spatial X/Y setups used often.
@Gryff Longprong i hope so :) but i must admit i had a hard time reading it myself! i have to watch the whole thing again to even know where i was going. i might not be from this planet at that particular moment i wrote that post.. :)
It’s so far into the room and the wife threw the speakers out the window. That’s why the speakers disappear
Haha!
Thanks for the tip. How do you deal with the concept of toe in while you try different distances?
My speakers are EQ'd flat for the room. Does that matter with this method? Should I turn the EQ off during the test?
Ron your voice have a good sound stage in my loudspeakers :)
What timing... I didn’t do exactly what you mentioned, but I did start listening with the lights off at night recently and then found myself tweaking the speaker location until, as you say, poof - the speakers vanished and I was sitting in the room with the musicians not only in front of me, but as far back as to seem to come from behind the front wall.
That’s it man! Sounds like you nailed it!
I've been either too lazy or worried it would work... so I hadn't really pulled these things out past 5 feet, so this vidi was like a challenge... and to both my delight and horror the speakers responded positively... 8 or more feet out from the short wall in a 24x48 foot room. Sound is groovin' after halfway back... open baffle setup, big drivers. I guess the listening chair will go right about between the welder and the chop saw...
Badass!
Can the speakers disappear with classic "Beatles Stereo" mixes where the entire drum kit is in one channel and missing in the other?
Stereo imaging is non-existent. It's also difficult to listen to because it's so distracting. The modern mixes have corrected this, but if you have the old, uncorrected mixes, then it would be great to find a technique to deal with this...
If the early stereo mixes were any good, then there would not need to re-mix them for the re-issues.
instead of turning off the lights can't you simply close your eyes?
Sure, just no peeking!
@@Newrecordday2013 thanks for responding. not trying to be a smart ass. I just always close my eyes like a wierdo when listening to my speakers since I believed it sounded just a tad bettter. Seems like I was doing something right all along since you recommend listening this way to determine how good the soundstage is.
I actually do something similar to turning out the lights but I can do this during the day search amazon for "Bucky 40 Blinks Comfortable, Contoured, No Pressure Eye Mask for Travel & Sleep" This is a sleep mask that doesn't press on your eyes so you can have them wide open in the dark. It's so easy to follow images moving in space with this sleep mask. It's like turning the lights out but now it's perfectly dark. It's like when you have someone speaking to you in a perfectly dark room, you know where they are and can imagine where the person is standing and even see them in your head. It's fantastic!
Thanks for taking the time to share!
Nice! Hope I could get this to work in my small bedroom. Could this work with a frontal stereo speaker? I doubt it could but was just wondering... o3o
Your chick had to make sure you weren't on the phone with the side chick
My listening room is 8' x 14'
If I move the speakers out into my listening area as you recommend, they begin very close to my side walls. Your tutorial recommends moving them incrementally backward, but never do you mention moving them incrementally closer to each other. What am I missing here?
Well its recommended that you have an equal distance from your ears to the speakers and between the speakers themselves. So if you bring the speakers closer together then you need to sit closer as well
I have played around with speaker placement before and similar to what your talking about, I place my speakers a foot or 18 inches in front me and have the speakers pointed at each other. You have to have the tweeters ear level so your sweet spot is very tiny but holy hell does it sound amazing. I put on tracks of nature sounds and when I close my eyes, it sound exactly like real life. I played a track of bird sounds, and I would have sworn the birds were flying around the room. Music tracks are amazing too because the vocals on most tracks sound like they are coming in front of you. The instruments sound like they are inside the room. Obviously downsides are the sweet spot is very small and not everyone can put speakers right in front of you. But some positives are that they sound amazingly life like and you don’t need to turn them on very loud. And for people saying this is crazy, please do us a favor and try this for yourself to see what happens before you criticize others. Hell, get the cheapest speakers you can, place them a foot from your face and point them at each other. I promise you, it will sound amazing.
Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment, I appreciate it!
Hey Ron. I’m really struggling with soundstage and making my speakers disappear as this is my ultimate goal. Sorry for this newbie question but here we go. I’m using a pair of Vandersteen 2C’s which should image like crazy. I’m wondering if the older Yamaha AV receiver is my problem. Will an upgrade to something like a Schiit Saga make much of a difference? Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Hank, Great question! I doubt the change in the amp is going to take a speaker that struggled with staging and completely transform it. Try my method outlined in this tutorial and let me know what happens. If you dont get some staging out of the speakers while trying this, I would say the issue is either the speaker themselves or the room acoustics.
Hi Ron. Thanks so much for getting back to me. I’m sorry I was not clear. I do get soundstage and the speakers almost disappear but with most music I can still tell where the speakers are. I do have bass traps and 5 absorbers. Maybe I’m too over damped.? I’ll try your method but I would swear I’ve had the speakers in just about every position. Very frustrating. Thanks again for your help!
Hank Nalley Hi Hank, I do think that by swapping your AVR to a dedicated 2 channel amp you’ll get closer to what you are looking for, especially speakers that already have good soundstage. For example, my AVR receiver sounds good with my speakers but once I upgraded to my 2 channel tube amp it does things with soundstage that my receiver could never get close to. I do switch back forth when watching movies but when I want to experience sound that surrounds me I switch over to my 2 channel amplifier.
So question, would this formula work for adjusting each home theater speaker?
I find all speaker placement with home theater is easier than 2 channel stereo. The changes are easier to detect....so easier from that perspective, however, more effort due to more speakers and essentially multiple soundstages. For simplicity sake a rear & front soundstage. The perfect seating position is where those two stages merge.
Thank you for sharing 👍
An amazingly useful video.
For me, resolution is king, and I suppose that this requires a great sound stage.
I’ve never heard of this technique before, but I’ve noticed that standing between the speakers and looking back at the guests with their mouths open as I play their favorite artist, that is fun!
Hey Ron. I have heard Danny Richie pronounce your last name as Brenett. Is that correct?
Brenay
Would you recommend doing the same (but perhaps scaled-down) in a small dj/studio booth in my basement? If what you say is true, my mixes and studio work could sound more rich.
your mixes probably already sounds pretty rich.
It's my understanding that most studios don't set their gear up like that because of SBIR issues. They mount the speakers in the wall to get the best sound for what they're using them for. The problem is to really make your speakers sing, you have move em out into the room. Mine are 85 inches from the front wall to the speakers baffle. I've also heard some of the studio engineer guys mix on a rig not to unlike one you might have. Then they listen to it on their HiFi system to really enjoy their work.
Regards,
Interesting. My vintage preamp has the Carver sonic holography which produces amazing imaging with certain recordings. I'm talking sounds 7 feet either side of speakers. Preamp came with setup album, drawings and measurements. Not every recording is that impressive. I wonder if this setup works for ALL recordings? Alot of work scooting 80lb speakers around.
I'm going to do this test. Right now, my tower speakers are pointed to my listening seating position. Is that wrong? Looks like from your instructions, the 2 speakers' side wall are parallel to each other.
so which way should the speakers be facing again ... towards you ?
Depends on the speaker. I typically start with the speakers straight and adjust toe-in after to taste.
@@Newrecordday2013 How about for Magnepan? I'd assume same situation, right now I have the tweeters pointed in a way that if I had a laser coming off the tweeter section it would intersect a little in front of me with tweeters in. I hear a good center image but things on the side of the soundstage do at times sound like they are coming from the speakers depending on the track. I haven't figured out if I want the intersection to be in front of me, on me, or behind me. Then again some people have Maggies pointed almost straight forward with and almost no toe in.
@@freezerburn6454 Magnepans with the tweeter In is a bit tricky and can make the sweet spot small and a bit elusive.
Things to think about with a laser as you said the tweeter should be coming straight at your ears on each side to start and than move your head forward and back to see where the sweet spot is . the mistake Maggie listeners make is having the bass panel in the wrong position and that really messes up the sound stage Magnepan and I have found you want the bass panel 1/2 inch to 1 inch closer to you than the tweeter. this is what become very hard with the tweeters in. if you do it as he says above work your way back ignore all the Maggie rules to start find where there best than toe them in to where the bass panel is where I said and then play with ok where are the tweeters now you can get magic. I would also do it again with the tweeters out to see what works best. I like the tweeters out for a couple reasons I have a chair on each side of my chair so I'm trying to make not only the sound stage larger but with them out the bass panels are in the right position compared to the tweeter. The bass is slower to your ear the the highs if the bass panel is back compared to the tweeter it compounds the affect. I find with the tweeters out the chairs on the side get a better more centered soundstage than tweeters in. But try it both ways.
New Record Day are you adjusting toe in after you have the right distance? Toe in can make quite a bit of difference so I’m trying to discern where in the process this happens.
New Record Day ok thanks got it.
Great to see you man! Great topic for the episode. Love your definition of sound stage, I think I will make it mine also. Very interesting commentary. I am going to try the Ron method of setting up sound stage, using Led Zeppelin's You Shook Me. Man thanks for this video, great work. You, and your family have a fantastic Frequency Friday!
Always love your comments man! Thank you!
But I don’t have 20 ft cables 🤷🏻♂️
Ron, have you combined this approach with extreme toe in hack for the horn speakers?
I have horn speakers. What's that hack you are talking about?
How to decide where should I be sitting ?
Well done. Really enjoyed this video. If only my wife would allow the speakers farther out into the room. The alternate for me was to add more absorption on the wall behind the speakers to provide a deeper soundstage. Not as good, but all I could get away with.
I believe some of the sound stage has to come from how the record ( music ) was processed. Not sure of this but I was told that many years ago and your not going to get sound stage from every song or not that good
I think Ron has something here but I totally agree with you in regards to the recording. I definitely know the songs in my playlist that have a magical effect and the ones that sound like everything is coming from just one plane.
true any sound engineer will tell you your not getting what was the artist sounded like in the studio and only what sounds best or what the the artist wants you to here
what if you blindfold yourself and take a step back at a time instead of moving the speakers? will it work?
That won't work, because the speaker sound change in relation to the room walls. So, changing your position relative to the speakers does not afect the percieved sound so much when compared to changing speakers position relative to you and also to room walls.
@@andru2625 Thank you
All fine and good, but I would rather rely on a high-quality frequency measurement mic for the most accurate speaker placement.
Andy, I once thought like you. That is until I was able to pull off HOLOGRAPHIC IMAGING. I didn't belive what I was hearing. It's a complete game changer and shouldn't be disregarded. We all have room issues, REW and mini DSP help out tons. But that help usually comes at the cost of musical dynamics. I've spent countless hours looking at the same room mode calculator printout to find that optimal subwoofer location. The true is, once your room absorbsion and diffusion treatments are in order, find the best place for your speakers and the magic creates the rest. The room becomes the speaker. When done right, You can sit 1 foot in front of the speaker and not hear sound coming from it. The room is now the speaker. With that, even though we don't have perfect rooms, the music we hear will be musical. Even the notes that don't measure well will sound musical. It may not sound as awesome as a system that has all the bells and whistles but it's musical. I'd take a just okay quality budget system with holographic imaging over an expensive, ill adjusted, non treated room any day of the week. The budget will system will beat the high end system every time. Once i got this dialed in, I discconnected the mini dsp, turned off all forms of room eq software, and only use pure direct now. It sounds tons better that way. But only once i got the imaging figured out.
Liked. Subscribed.
I listen to a pair of Klipsch KG4's. About 4.5 feet from the wall behind them, 4.5 feet apart center to center, 4 feet from my ears. I just measured.
With some clean, simple music, say a singer, guitar, piano, and bass. With the grills off and the lights on. Not only does the sound not come from the speakers, but if I look directly at a speaker, it is obvious that those two woofers and that steampunk-looking horn could not possibly have anything to do with the sound of Emmylou Harris's voice that I'm listening to.
Excellent! Welcome aboard!
I wish I had the room I have no choice 2ft all I have
That max I have is 1.5 ft does make a massive difference tho
That is with the speakers straight ahead... so when the speakers disappear, do you then start toe in and rake to tighten up the center image? Also Ron, I am on a quest to find a bookshelf and a tower speaker, using the IOTA amp, that will best reproduce PIANO! I cannot find a speaker that does it without fatiguing my ears off. I have tried Kef, Boston, JBL, Klipsch... do you have any suggestions?
the most important component in an Audio System are my ears,
i just complete my mcintosh system see here,
ruclips.net/video/I6BnV7nCaws/видео.html
Try wharfedales
or Tannoy (e.g. Cheviot)
Unless your speaker have bright highs you must to them in so the sound is directed to you ears.
Pianos are hard to make sound right because they are usually recorded so badly. Microphone perspective does not replicate realistic ear perspective. Listeners have no control over what happens in recording. We can't compensate for recording mistakes in playback. We hate to bypass a great performance because of a terrible recording.
Well done👍
I tired your method and it did magic... :) Watched many videos on soundstage and image so far, honestly no one else talked about this. It's like you revealed the magic trick... thanks!!!...
I got few follow-up questions, please let me know your thoughts on that.
1)Is it possible to get the soundstage for all three chairs in the row? With methods like extreme tow in? Currently I get the sound stage only from center chair.
2) Should the equilateral triangle still be maintained between the listening position and the speakers. Distance between listening position and speaker is much lesser at the point where speakers are disappearing.
3) how far the speaker should be away from the side wall? I have some limitations here on my home theater which would block the view if pulled beyond 2 ft from side wall. Distance between the speakers are 9ft.
The speakers I use are klipsch rp280f.... My room dimensions : 14ft wide and 19 ft long... Seating position is 11 feet from the front wall.
This video gave me chills.
Oh? Why is that
@@Newrecordday2013 cuz he's really weird.
ron dude... found out too,,,, goot...more stuff to try later too
You do not need to turn off any light if you have a good enough system but be aware of any small powersuplies like phone-chargers, they produces a lot of distortion
Its not about electrical interference it is about peeking of the senses. By turning out the lights you are making your brain focus on sound as a survival technique. When you cant see your surroundings your brain automatically enhances your hearing. Also as he describes in the video, you are focusing on where the sound is coming from. By not being able to see the speakers you are not expecting the sound to come from their direction. You want your mind to think the sound is coming from any and all directions. I have a set of speakers that in 2 channel mode sounds like some sounds are coming from behind you. That is a good soundstage as the whole environment surrounds you without having surround sound.
@@MurderousMindstate You have never heard a good enough system
Love the darkness idea. Love starting with obviously bad and working towards not-so-obvious good. But I PROMISE you, there's parts I don't understand. The speakers are 7 feet apart and close to you at the START. Are they toed in at all? How much? How do you change toe-in as you move speakers back? And do you keep speakers 7 feet apart as you move them back towards the front wall? Hmmm. If yes, then you are having three variables -- distance from listening position to speakers, distance of speakers from front wall, and the ratio of both -- and controlling two non-variables -- listening position distance from front wall and distance between speakers. Seems iffy to me. But I will try. I have done extensive experience in near-field listening at my desk and have been blown away to hear sound sources on some recordings, like a banjo, from WAAY outside the speaker position, while pinpointing the lead vocals flat in the middle. Pretty cool. Neumann KH120 speakers and PSAudio GainCell DAC. Wonderful combo that far exceeds my previous favorite -- Sennheiser HD600 headphones. I finally have speakers that sound better than really good headphones. Now I need to work on my main system -- all PS Audio electronics and Tannoy Cheviot speakers in a non-ideal room. Thanks.
My take was, no toe-in at the beginning. Keep the speaker straight, facing the wall on your back.
As you have found the best location, apply the desired toe-in and evaluate whether it makes any difference in you setup.
@@NicolaDiNisio Thanks, Nicola. What about distance between speakers? Experiment with that before or after toe-in? (It's funny, I find with most guys, they (1) place speakers as far away from the front wall as is allowed by the wife, (2) then experiment with distance between speakers, (3) then finally, toe-in.) Listening position and speakers distance from front wall are usually the two non-variables. One final tip from a non-pro. If you light a bowl before turning off the lights, your speakers will always sound better.
@@HAL9007 I have setup the speaker 2m apart, and with the usual toe-in. In the end the winning position resulted to be the classic equilateral triangle, with the speakers and myself forming an equilateral triangle, with each side measuring 2 meters, and about 1 meter free room behind the speakers and behind my back. The resulting soundstage, as well as tonal balance is so much better that I have marked the listening position and the speakers' position on the floor with black tape. I cannot leave the speakers in the middle of the living room during the day, but when I am listening to my stereo, I will definitely move the speakers to the new found place and I will sit where the black tape is!
@@NicolaDiNisio My experience is pretty close to yours. I toe-in half the difference between straight ahead and pointed at my head. It's a pain in the butt to move my speakers out to the prime, "lights out" position -- Tannoy Cheviots, 65 lbs ea. (I also tilt them back about 5 degrees which improved them immensely. And I use isoAcoustics GAIA III which made big difference.) Thanks for the help. Stay safe out there. ~ Hoyt from Fredericksburg, VA USA.
Hey allen0088 👍 Love to have heard the ‘Sound Stage’ in his house after he finished this video. Anyone else see the wife, in her nightie, stop and stare at him on her way to wherever. You better get a lawyer New Record Day guy coz sitting in the dark making videos for RUclips won’t keep her happy haha
It kind of reminds me of tuning a guitar string from the loose to tight. I'm not sure why.
And I was thumb #1000 on 12/5/20
Not me but my cousin, when he was just learning how to tune his guitar and he can't get it right, he would make the string more out of tune and start all over again
Guys my system is killing me , its sounds “ stereophonic “ when I say put my two hands behind my ears, and everything just stands up , holographic , pin point , but then when I put my hands down ... the sound stage just fall down... I tried toe in , etc., Could it just be adding more absorption to the room to clean up the reflections? Thank you all for the advice , i just want to be in that STEREO BUBBLE! I want to sit next to BILL EVANS and Bob Marley , I don’t want to just sit behind the club ! I want to be there as the mic ! Lol ! HELPPPPP ~
I'm no expert on this but I'd say your getting reflections perhaps from the back wall or similar from the way your hands are blocking them
My current soundstage with Harbeth 40.2 in a 18x23 (with openings) room is fantastic even on older recordings. There is a complete 3D bubble of sound around the entirety of each speaker. Im love how things are finally shaping up in my system after a decade of trying to get there.
Is it me only that needs expandable speaker cables?
Haha! Go hack up some extension cords for this if you can’t reach! You do make a good point!
Any recommendations for tracks/songs/music to use for this??
A bit late but Pink Panther theme ruclips.net/video/BxjZIFZ1Pcc/видео.html
Im gonna need longer speaker cable
Will have to try this for music, to be sure, but not for movies. When watching movies with a 2.0 system I need the sound to be coming from where the picture is, and nowhere else. As long as we don't have the technology to make the picture surround me, the sound shouldn't surround me either, or it will break the immersion.
And with music the thing I will be curious about with this method is if it can replicate on speakers the kind of immersion you get on headphones (on some tracks).
makes a lot of sense.
In order to get a good soundstage you have to have a decent CD player or turntable. In my experience a cheap CD player will sound like you pushed the mono button in. A good CD player will give you a better stereo soundstage.
Moreso than digital lossless?
Solo operatic voice. I elevated my stereo speakers at 5 feet and they are just 4 o 5 feet apart. I'm just 3 feet away. The voice is neither on the right nor the left, I got terrified coz the soprano's mouth is in front of my face !!