Great video! The REL high level connectors would be connected to the speaker terminals of your amp. The main speakers will also connected to the binding posts. The effect on the impedance of adding these REL high level connectors to your amp is benign. What this does, based on my experience, is having the same tonal characteristics of your amp also carried over to the REL, which makes for better integration and better cohesiveness. By using two REL subs (one for each channel) you can have a better sense of space, depth, and width. Low frequency information from each channel can be more defined (now in stereo). Not to mention a more even bass response in the room. To achieve this, it may take days or weeks of experimentation but it’s worth it. Adding subwoofers is not really about adding bass, but rather extending the range of the main speakers and ALSO improving sound stage and imaging, thus improving the whole system.
Excellent video John. It’s alway nice to have the follow up questions answered. Everyone suggesting 2.2 is spot on in their suggestion too. Can’t wait for that video.
Hi John (and other KEF KC62 users), I had the same problem with the KC62 taking a long time to come out of standby mode (when paired with the LS50 WII). Sometimes it would also revert back to standby, especially when listening to music at lower volumes. Ben Hagen posted a workaround for this problem on the Roon forum. Pretty sure I can't post links here, so I'll just copy and pate the solution below: 1) Select the sub option in the KEF Connect app and make a note of the sub out low pass filter setting. 2) Adjust the sub out low pass frequency to the highest setting (so all the way to the right) 3) Adjust volume/gain as mentioned in the app 4) Switch sub to MANUAL mode rather than LFE 5) Adjust the sub’s onboard crossover dial to the frequency noted in step 1 This will send a wider bandwidth signal to the sub, and is significantly ‘out of the way’ of the sub’s own filter to not cause cascading. With the higher bandwidth, there should be more signal at a high enough output to help trigger the sub and keep it on. If you listen at lower volumes (3 o’clock on the sub has done me well personally with the kind of music I listen to at around 40 volume on LS50WII), then you may also consider increasing the sub gain on the app and reducing the volume dial on the crossover to compensate. Not sure if this would work when paired with other systems though.
I really loved this video and your previous one, I really liked the way that you approached your analysis of the two subs. I have two subs in my room, one that is very close to the side of my couch and one that is near the main speakers in front of me. The sub that is near my couch is sealed and I have it plays 20-40Hz, the one in front of me plays from ~30Hz up to 120Hz. I have built both of these subs myself and I know that that isn't for everyone but the thing that has been a real eye opener for me has been the fact that the sub in front of me is open baffle. It produces such wonderful and textured bass that gives a wonderful presence to acoustic bass when I am listening to jazz and the sealed sub beside me hits me in the chest when I am listening to 'oontz - oontz'. Love it all keep up the amazing work!
Thought #11 - Why I'd like an active microsub with a pair of streaming loudspeakers: my family members at home, who have no idea about anything audiophile, prefer fewer units, fewer wires, smaller footprint, and thus a cleaner room aesthetic. Also, the setup should be easy for them (beginners/not tech savvy) to play music when they want to.
Excellent video as ever (please do this type again) and so refreshing to see a back and forth on comments/questions/answers that's interesting, informative and courteous. You set a great example. Keep up the good work!
For anyone having bass management/calibration in their amp/receiver, the 5 ms delay will be compensated for. But even so if you do not use it, i think 5 ms is such a small delay that I doubt that people would hear the difference in blind testing. I think there are many other things to worry about when adding a sub to a system rather than the 5 ms delay. Like sub placement, phase and room modes. I really think that before anyone invests in a sub, i think they should invest in a measuring microphone first to learn if their current speakers are performing well in the room. Especially if you do not have bass management. Maybe moving the speakers around can improve the existing response? Later if you choose to add a sub you can measure the improvement and integrate it in a good way.
Thumbs up for the "follow up" video concept John. I've an old Paradigm sub that really takes a jolt of volts to wake up. Glad to learn I'm not alone with that issue.
Really enjoyed this and I hope there are more to come. A lot of great information can be had from the RUclips community and I hope videos like this will help cultivate an even more productive HiFi conversation. Thanks Mr. Darko
I dig this connective Q&A corralling & format John. I got my first sub after seeing your “first sub” vid and reading Phil Wright’s T5x review on your website. Adding a down firing sub transformed my listening experience and added a whole new dimension that I was missing and look forward to your 2.2 dive. Also, thanks for energy put into the channel to keep it polite and courteous, especially for people like me and who are still fairly new to this community.
This interaction with the comments is much appreciated. Not sure a new video is needed after every video, but the interaction is appreciated. Always seemed to be a wall I the past. Glad to see you embrassing this more like other you tube channels.
I really liked this experiment of yours, it makes you look more approachable. You’ve definitely got my vote for more of these types of videos in the future.
Hi John, Great pair of films. I have 2 SVS Micro's and use them with a Michi X3 amplifier (no bass Management). They supplement a pair of B&W 705 s2 signatures. It works well and its so easy to set both subs up with the app, without this it would take days to do. As the amp has no bass management the people at SVS advise setting a manual crossover of between 50 and 60 hz within the SVS software (I went for 55hz in the middle). They both seem to blend very well and sometimes I have to switch them off to convince myself the speakers aren't handling everything. I had several questions re the subs, so I contacted SVS service via e mail several times. I cant praise them enough, they responded within hours (I live in France) and their replies were very informative, allowing me to set up the subs with ease. They reply personally and seem really interested in your issues and cant help you enough. Anyway, good luck if you choose to do a 2 sub set up review, as I say it works for me with no bass management, it maybe a little more involved with, but who knows. cheers, Greg.
I think comparing a REL t5 using the hi-level input to the SVS and/or KEF would be interesting as it would be sort of an old vs new or future vs traditional comparison. REL encourage users to use hi-level input and run speakers full range which is a very different approach than the digitally controlled crossovers and hi-pass/low-pass filters used by KEF and SVS.
Regarding 5ms delay. We have two ears and one of the reasons for this is that we use the perceived delay in sound reaching each ear to determine the position of that sound. Consider then a recording of a bass guitar being played. It is quite likely that the bass guitar will play notes which activate the subwoofer and some will be above that range. It could follow that the lower notes from a bass guitar make it sound as if the artist has walked back two steps - not good. That's my take on it, if I'm wrong let me know.
Hi John, Nice video, this one and the micro sub review. I would like to add that I learned about hifi from my mate's dad back in the late eighties and he owned the top line of Kenwood L-1000 series and Magnat speakers MP-X 088 with the MP-02 plasma speakers. He loved classical music and had a additional bass unit which was DIY and is sat behind the couch and there were 2 units of 30 cms in there. Crossed at 150 hz because 98% of the energy required is in the first three octaves (160Hz). This was to me at the time the best system I heard and my mate and I were into doof doof music in the early 90's (house in The Netherlands at the time) we knew where to play our cd's. Great fun. Working in Professional Audio for a few years and learning that the subs are crossed at 150Hz with a 24dB per octave active crossover is the rule of thumb for PA systems and if you like live recordings and you have a similar setting at home I guess it adds to the sound stage. I have always have had 1 or more subwoofers to take the bass load from the main speaker and limit distortion (somebody mentioned it) but that is main reason for always having a sub in my mind but hey I learned that early on. Cheers, keep the videos coming. Jeroen
+1 for REL. Now that you have entered the realm of subwoofer reviewing, i feel REL (for better or worse) is considered a critical reference point. They occupy a special place in sub-curious audiophiles minds because of perceived superiority in musical quality or ‘SQL’. A unique focus on their proprietary high level input connections (and it’s universal praise) adds to this mystique. Tackling a 2.2 setup is an excellent next step (and one I am very curious about), but for a 2 channel music focused audio reviewer, I would say a REL T7x should be your next stop.
It was very interesting John please do it again. Having you address the comments in a holistic approach like that is wonderful for us subscribers. We know you're hearing us and considering our points of view.
Hello John, I really liked this Video. I do enjoy your videos for some years now and I agree on a lot of topics with you. HOWEVER, not on all topics (sorry). Seeing other people adding information towards your point of view added a nice layer of discussion. Regarding the REL subject for example: I am not a future-fi guy, I like fiddling around with my separates. So a comparison between the DSP-side of the force and the HI-LEVEL side would be a very nice addition for me. Thanks for the entertainment and keep on rocking!
Intresting! 5ms: human hearing is is very sensitive to the start of a pulse (thats why High Res works). Its wise to delay your main speakers, if possible. It will lock the bass in place, and will even effect depth of sound stage. REL: High inputs are interesting, because they copy the flavor of the main amplifier. disadvantage: especially by tubeamps is the low dampingfactor (flubby bass) or the early rolloff.
I just bought SVS 3000 Micro after your review and OMG... I had a huge problem with room modes that my Yamaha's room corretion could not fix (50Hz booming like crazy). With this SUB I can enjoy music again... amazig, so much options and flexibility in such a small enclosure. Plus for people living with animals, cat's especially: grills on SVS are bulletproof :)
I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy this video, but I really did! Having a follow-up to your 'full production' videos really adds another dimension and is very enjoyable.
Nice video once again mr. Darko! Hope this video get's alot of views and we can have more of this. I hope you combine 2.2 setup in your next video about subs. For me it was a game changer to go from 1 to 2 sub. I have 2 Forcefield 3's now placed behind my speakers and it is just easier to implement/adjust them, specially in augmention mode when you have 2.
Re the questions on KC62 Standby - I bought a KC62 recently and have had no issues to date with them automatically switching on, even at low volume. Looks like they fixed the issue, as you mentioned in your video (or maybe I've been lucky). Ps Your original video on the KC62 was a positive factor in buying one. Thanks
Found that really useful John and added significantly to the original video.
2 года назад+1
Nice reflecting video. Regarding the high level on a REL, both the main speaker cables and the sub are connected to the speaker terminals on the amplifier. According to REL this provides better sub integration. Also, the reason to why I want your take on the REL is that I have heard many say that the REL provides a sensation in the room that makes low notes with low sound pressure level being audible. Whereas othe brands need the volume turned up to hear these low notes... To me this sounds outstanding. Hearing more from the record at lower volumes is a win! REL also use class A/B amps which would contribute the the sound. The design with an active woofer in the front and a passive downfiring woofer may be the key to the appreciated sound from a REL?
Regarding the 5 ms delay, it’s not about “late” bass or latency. It’s about phase coherence in the crossover region. 5 ms can delay bass notes a quarter wavelength or more, which means turning the phase 90 degrees or more. This affects the cancelation and summing of the bass in the crossover region. This is very audible. In fact, REW has a built-in feature for this very purpose that lets you record the sub response and speaker response separately, then sum them in the software and align the phase and FR visually. Then you get a number, say 17 ms, that will give you perfect phase alignment. Here, it very much matters if you already have the 5 ms built in to the sub. Furthermore, there’s a concept in acoustics called group delay, which is like a frequency response graph, but instead it tells you how much each frequency is delayed in time. The goal, of course, is for all frequencies to be zero (leaving the speaker at the same time). This is called linear phase. But this is not possible in reality. Even the best tuned active systems will have rising group delay in the bass. But this doesn’t matter so much, since bass is not perceived like “normal” directional waves, but rather as pressure changes over larger regions of a room. So a 30 Hz tone, for instance, is not perceived with a definite pulse start. 5 or 10 ms “late bass” doesn’t matter to perception, as long as the phase response is coherent (linear phase). In other words, group delay always rises in the bass, and that’s imperceptible, so long as there aren’t phase issues happening at the crossover region.
ad 130Hz: my interpretation is that the original commenter wants to say there will be distortions from the main speaker woofers if you play loud signals with lower frequencies than twice their base frequency. "attempt to play f < 2*f0 > 70dBc" = attempt to play frequencies with less than twice the base frequency (lowest supported frequency of the main speaker) at levels greater than 70dB relative to the carrier signal. As an example, if you have main speakers that go down to 70Hz, you should not attempt to play loud signals below 140Hz on them, because they will introduce distortion on the higher frequencies the main speaker woofers also cover. It is better to let the sub handle those frequencies.
This one is worth 2 likes, John. I would like to see more of these videos. It allows us to learn more about the product on something you may have touched on but viewers might like to know more about. For instance, how you might apply the voicings on the Lyngdorf to different types of music, or even tv/movies.
Great format, John! Not too long, not too short, and addressed some interesting issues about subs. BTW, I am a fan of the 2.2 audio setup; it sort of carries over from my 5.2 home theater setup. From the listening position, it sounds more balanced, and just a lot easier to set up. I do like your attitude towards audio and tech in general.
A 2.2 review/discussion would be interesting. But so would adding a REL to the micro sub discussion. How about both (said the guy that doesn’t have to do the work)? Like you, many of us recognize that subs and systems are audio furniture. So the appeal of these small subs is considerable. Thanks John. Really enjoyable.
Very good video! You're absolutely right mate about kef connect app controlling the sub via the kef speakers. Despite me having Ls50 w2 and kc62, I'd still prefer to have a dedicated app for the KC62. This would also make the kc62 more viable to buyers who are only looking at buying the kc62 and not replacing the non kef speakers.
Love this vid content. Both the drift away from product specifics and the response to comments. I watch your vids and dream of being able to afford some of the featured kit, but this gives me info and inspiration I can apply to my own more modest equipment. Result! 😀
Fantastic video as usual! Really appreciate the situational centric theme of your videos as opposed to product focused ones! These days, all products are competent. Rather, what matters is which one is right for a given person's circumstances!
Appreciate the follow-up video on the comments John. I found the comments generally useful and went down some rabbit holes about what the "right" crossover should be for my setup. (Spoilers - I just left it at 80Hz and it seems fine). I've only had my KC62 a month so mine must be one of the "new" ones with updated firmware or something - the sub just wakes straight away and doesn't have any perceptible noise when waking or sleeping. Very happy with my system and a lot of that is thanks to your reviews John. My Yamaha amp gave up as the sound processing chip aged (known fault, but no replacement outside warranty) so I picked up an NAD M10 V2 and the KC62 to give my original KEF LS50 speakers new life. I really recommend paying the extra to upgrade to the full version of Dirac Live and taking a few tightly controlled measurements from the listening position. I've created a curve with a little lift in the bass and a little lift on the highs that seems to bring new life and clarity to my LS50s and the bass feels weighty, but not shake the room boom.
I recently bought a REL T9X. Initially I was skeptical of the high-level input. After using it for a few weeks, I'm sold. It sounds fantastic with my Sonus Faber Lumina IIIs. The speakers and the sub both connect to the amplifier speaker outputs. The REL connects via bare wire at the amp end and a Speakon connector at the sub. I terminated mine with ring terminals so they snug up nicely under the connectors. A big advantage of using the high level connection is your amp doesn't need a pre-out. In my case I have a 15-year-old PrimaLuna integrated amp and there is no volume-controlled output. So for me the REL has a huge advantage. Finally I think the high-level input provides a more natural sound, as it's the exact same signal going to your speakers. It provides a holistic sound that matches your speakers. The REL is expensive but I think it's worth the extra cost. I've actually been considering a second one ... talk me out of it please!
I have two T9i and love them, but I have a very ‘unfriendly’ room in terms of potential sub placement options - one immediately to the right of the listening position & one forward of the speakers by the left wall are the only options. Adding a second sub really does make it impossible to localise the bass, unlike having only a single sub in my listening space. If you’re going to add a second sub, you could consider selling off your current T9 and buying two T7x - if a single T9 is giving you all the volume you need, you may find that you need to turn a pair down to very low volume levels, which limits the range of adjustment, based on my experience. Just a thought…
Excellent video - you are now easily my favourite Hi Fi channel. One thing - as a music producer (amateur) I do find some of the audiophile issues raised either in the videos or comments odd/unusual…some of the things people care about/believe to be accurate/matter bear no relation to how music is actually made/mixed/mastered.
John, awesome video and concept! Please do more of these on a routine basis. I would love to see these in addition to your normal video output. Admittedly, this could double your total video output. But perhaps you and Olaf could streamline the editing or whole production process for these comment videos so that it lightens the otherwise double workload. But I do think they are great because addressing our comments gives us viewers the sense that this is a two way conversation and not just one way, from you to us. Really terrific. Since I am commenting, I want to give a shout out to Jana and her great on location videos of interesting vendors and factories. You and your team are doing a great job. Please keep it up! Thanks from Chicago!
A 2.2 system, where you have your subs and mains placed, time delays, phase and polarities set property, is quite the experience. Your subs can soundstage the bass also. Bass drum kicks in the phantom center. Then the lows, can vary. Sometimes it's from the whole front wall enveloping you. Other times, depending on where they are placed in that track, can come from beyond the front wall and sometimes extend well outside of the mains and down the sides of the room. It took me a long time to get my subs right to get this, but once you do, it's magical.
To the 130 Hz resonance frequency comment of M Zrull. (I think)The end means: That the IMD / non-LTI distortions happen, when the main speakers have to produce soundwaves from f0 (their -3db point in the frequency response, lets assume 50Hz) up to 2 x f0 (so from 50hz to 100hz). Not sure what is meant with the "above 70 dBc" (maybe a minus slipped there and it means that they are in the range of -70dbc (so 70 db below the main signal(but that is a very low compared to the signal). please correct me if i am wrong
Above 70dBc is about actual loudness. And since A-weighted loudness filters out most of the bass, house shaking bass levels would still not be registered as "loud" by an "a-weighted" measurement. dBc is linear to near 30Hz. SO, above 70dBc = above 70dB. For a 80Hz signal, we de absolutely not perceive 70dB as loud! However, the cone excursion required for a 5" driver (regular for bookshelves) will require some excursion. This excursion usually results in distortion, especially "InterModulationDistortion". Which, in contrast to harmonic distortion, the ear actually pretty good at detecting. This is the most important reason why loudspeakers sound better in the midrange when combined with a subwoofer, IF they have a decent high-pass filter!
Nice work John. I really liked this Q&A style video. Good mix of variety and details. I imagine a lot less B roll footage too but just as interesting to watch for me. I know you said in the last video you wouldn’t do a how to video on REW and room correction but I think it’d be great. Instead of us having to wade through all the technical audiophile details, you and Olaf could bring an easy to understand version to the masses! Anyway, just an idea. Keep up the good work. Cheers
Nobody and I mean nobody come close to your videos John, your style/demeanor is impeccable (I’d give a close second to Andrew Robison who is also very good).
I have built a studio with large amounts of room treatment (whole walls and ceiling), as specified by a professional who designed the room and system. I am running two subwoofers, as that does create a more even bass frequency. The cross over point is at 180hz if memory serves correct (rather high) as it helps compensate for the thin desk, floor and some other problems. The subwoofers are aligned perfectly with the 3 way main monitors ( they are on top of the subs with stands) and everything is aligned with a laser measurement. DSP is used to manage the sub and mains, plus any phase issues because there is a slight delay in the sub, and final for EQ. Just thought you might appreciate knowing what I ended getting amazing results with. Not exactly living room friendly though…
What I have discovered with a good sub if you listen to music is the room. The recording room that stands out more. All small low sounds that are normally not heard. It feels like room information is getting bigger. With a pair of good floor speakers then there is a lot of information in the lower registers, but a subwoofer amplifies it. Of course, assuming that you used a "live" room and recorded in. Just a little point of view that many people might not think about.
Just wanted to say thank for, unintentionally, putting me on to Dylan Sitts. What a great artist. I have just spent the last 3 hours listening to his work and sipping tequila. Such a chill artist. Danke.
Damping factor has impact at driver resonance frequency. Delay and phase have a relation. Actually speaker crossovers cause delay. A fourth order crossover delays the signal full cycle (360 degrees, full wavelength). If a speaker has fourth order crossover at 200 Hz, the signal is delayed by 5 milliseconds. However, the signals of the drivers being crossed over are in phase related to each other but the impulse response of the speaker is spread over longer time. Human hearing is not very sensitive to delay especially on bass frequencies (except that skin sensation may be more sensitive to delay).
Hey Darko, You should really look at AVRs from a audiophile perspective. And there are many reasons for that: 1. Most ppl also like movies and there no stereo setup that can match half decent multichannel. Of those liking the movies, most don't have a separate listening/watching rooms. And most of them would not have 2 sets of equipment in the same room. So I think it's important for your audience to hear your opinion on AVRs for music. 2. Any modern AVR will have a built in streamer and room correction for the fraction of price in stereo setup. Take a look at Integra (pioneer and friends) - Dirac live, Spotify connect, Tidal connect and whatever else. That's convenient to use. 3. I love Pink Floyd and their quadrophonic recordings. I love Steven Wilson and his multichannel (done right). Even spatial audio of any form from Tidal or Apple music. No stereo setup can do it. 4. All of the AVRs come with HDMI ARC/eARC. 5. All of the AVRs have easy sub integration. More expensive ones can do 2 subs separately. 2 subs feel very different not because of amount of lows, but because of their distribution in a room. You will find out in your future review of this idea :) So really, just for fun, try a decent AVR. And if you still think that they don't sound good enough, throw in an power amp like Emotiva XPA-2 (or XPA HC-1 if you wanna be fancy). And then find some stereo setup that will match sound, features and convenience for the same price :)
Very interesting to hear that DSP introduces delay, as a drummer I’ve been able to distinguish minuscule time alignment differences ESPECIALLY in the bass region. I’m eager to test this for myself!
Nice. Q&A videos are great. Regarding the final point about the disconnect of opinion on active speaker designs vs active subwoofers, likely it's nothing more than familiarity. Hifi/Home theater subs have had plate amps on back for a LONG time, but only recently have full rage hifi speakers been implemented as such. Not only that, but everyone knows how crap most of those sub plate amps are as we've all had them fail. So, you can see the hesitation with accepting active speakers with what "must be" equally as crap plate amps onboard.
In pro car audio, time alignment is adjusted in 0.01 or 0.02 milliseconds, so humans are definitely able to perceive a 5ms delay. Of course, you can adjust the rest of the components in the system to compensate for the DSP 'lag', and a listening room will be far less affected by this because the sound waves don't bounce off the walls nearly as quickly as in a small environment like a car.
The thing is, the effect of the delay changes with frequency, due to the change in wavelength. At high frequency, 5ms of delay may be many wavelengths, enough to put one speaker significantly out of time with another. But at very low frequency, the same 5ms may be only a fraction of a single wavelength. Our ears are also terrible at picking up details at low frequency. Try listening to just a subwoofer. It doesn’t sound like bass, it just sounds like a mess. The details we hear in low frequencies are really just harmonics and overtones at higher frequencies.
Well for the DF, its not all about it. What we recall as fast bass is actually more then one parameter. If we simplyfi it, all that matters is fast transient response and very fast membrane stop after signal is gone. And that can and often do happen, when membrane is light. And smaller speaker can have lighter membrane then bigger speaker. And for the DSP in hypex systems. I do have Hypex plate amps. They are great and function is sufficient for we need from it. But when you look it up in Sigma studio, you will found, that this actuual DSP chip can do a ton lot of more things, then Hypex proprietary software is allowing you to have. I dont recognize maybe three quarters from it! And about phase... People who do have measurement mic and know how to use it, they can precisely tell you, that time alignment and phase is veeery important for the result of the sound. 5ms is a lot. We do shift delay between tweeters and midrange as low as 3cm to get the right timing thus phase. Becouse if you dont, then you got simply bad sound.
I completely agree with situation based reviews. Most who are new to the hobby will not recognize brands. They will be interested in their situation. Last week my daughter’s friend, a 16 year old, was over and we listened to some vinyl. This generated lots of interest in playing records and trolling used vinyl shops. I was asked about equipment. So, I made some suggestions that included used gear. I also passed on a high end print catalog I recently received in the mail. My point is, brand names and specs were irrelevant to the discussion. Just how to enjoy the vinyl hobby. I just added the pricey catalog to illustrate how far one could go. My main goal was not to present the hobby as distant and inaccessible. Rather, if you want to listen to music, there’s an affordable way to do it.
Great video, as usual. Regarding your upcoming 2.2 project, I am currently doing that myself. In my case, I am using a third party external electronic all analog crossover from SPL (in Germany). I am using a pair of Amphion Two18 studio monitors as the main speakers, and a pair of Dynaodio 18s subwoofers. The Dynaudio subs have built in DSP which handles the issues of small box with large drivers. They also have a crossover, but you are able to turn off the crossover and use them as a plain sub but with the DSP giving you "flat" response in the small box. I did this because I don't want to put a sub-standard A/D, D/A section between my primary signal source and the main speakers. The all analog SPL crossover, with its 120 volt internal rails, is really quite excellent and improves my sound quality by removing the intermodulation distortion from the main speakers with their little 6 inch woofers. As you probably know, having two subs allows you to mitigate room modes more effectively than with a single sub due to energizing the room from two different locations rather than with a single location. You also can get away with less amplifier power and you push the subs less hard for the same output. I still have to deal with the delay from the DSP in the subs, but that actually works well in my setup, having them closer to my listening position. Expensive, but worth it to me.
Please get in touch with John Hunter at REL. Show him this video and get a little more depth on the technical stuff. Someone at Velodyne can also help.
How cool on this take. I have the REL T5X as well. I did want the KEF but cost was over might limit and with Tekton Lors as my main speaker would not have had the advantages the Kef has.
does size matter John? have pondered this question my whole life, so I went big - 15inch Klipsch in a small room hooked up to a Michi X3 and Q Acoustics Concept 500. Not having heard a lot of subs, I think its a bit out of control and suffers from a lack of tightness in my room. So I'll get rid of it for something a little smaller WITH A REMOTE. I find I need to make gain adjustments for different songs and different movies is a necessity for me. thanks for all your work and podcast which I'm loving.
Hi John, Thank you for a lovely informative video. Your videos are one of the ref I use for deciding on what to buy. Your video on the getting a sub $1000 system instead of a soundbar made a lot of sense to me & am inclined to go that way. The question that I have is, does it make sense to go an amplifier & speaker as you have done or go the LS50 wireless II the active speakers. I do understand that there is a huge price difference. But am more interested in the concept of it. Any thoughts from you or any one in this group will be very appreciated.
If there is another video like this you should ask us to vote on the questions. That way your life is a little easier for selecting the follow ups. I really like this format.
To mitigate bass overshoot and need for high damping factor you need to use sub-bass servo driver, but the most critical point is that the units are exactly phase aligned at the cross-over point, phase differences need to be within + - 20 deg, I could bring my measurement system that I use, AMFG SysTune and demonstrate the difference for you
Hey there😊 That 5ms is not a problem if you have roomcorrection (like in an avr, my forté is more homecinema with a tad of vinyl/ music). Point is; for absolute best integration, one would need a roomcorrection that measures distance/ delay, and by doing that, will send signal to the sub 5 ms earlier than the speakers. Problem gone😊
@@neilshirley Hi Neil. I think most roomcorrection does both delay, and eq nowadays. Older ones usually did only delay. If you do not have roomcorrection, and only want to correct your sub(s), I would go for MiniDSP and use REW as software to do so. I have 3 subs, which I correct (eq and delay) in the MiniDSP, and then I let my AVR smoth it out even more. 😊
Hey John, I like REL not just because the High Level Input (that is just one more thing adding to whats good), but because of the overall quality of the product. Fundamentally the integration with the main speakers and the bass quality. They are also very connected to the 2 subs idea. The biggest issue is that most very good subwoofers are not super small. If you get the opportunity to try out a REL, my request is that you review one of the S series. Maybe S/510, S/812 or the Carbon Special. None of them are small to be called micro subs, but the sound they produce is also on another level compared to micro subs... So much that, if you manage to get them properly dialed in, I really doubt they will leave your room 🙂
Mr Darko you should do this more often, that way like you say we can all learn something keep up the good work..🔉🎧💿
Couldn’t agree more!
I do like this departure from normal. Follow up with questions that is. Thank you.
Great video! The REL high level connectors would be connected to the speaker terminals of your amp. The main speakers will also connected to the binding posts. The effect on the impedance of adding these REL high level connectors to your amp is benign. What this does, based on my experience, is having the same tonal characteristics of your amp also carried over to the REL, which makes for better integration and better cohesiveness. By using two REL subs (one for each channel) you can have a better sense of space, depth, and width. Low frequency information from each channel can be more defined (now in stereo). Not to mention a more even bass response in the room. To achieve this, it may take days or weeks of experimentation but it’s worth it.
Adding subwoofers is not really about adding bass, but rather extending the range of the main speakers and ALSO improving sound stage and imaging, thus improving the whole system.
Yes to more of this format. Appreciated how respectful you were to each comment. Also appreciate ideas over products.
I’d recommend the podcast John did with Srajan on bass management - priceless
Excellent video John. It’s alway nice to have the follow up questions answered. Everyone suggesting 2.2 is spot on in their suggestion too. Can’t wait for that video.
Absolutely loved your comments on comments! Keep these videos coming. Thanks 🙏
Hi John (and other KEF KC62 users),
I had the same problem with the KC62 taking a long time to come out of standby mode (when paired with the LS50 WII). Sometimes it would also revert back to standby, especially when listening to music at lower volumes. Ben Hagen posted a workaround for this problem on the Roon forum. Pretty sure I can't post links here, so I'll just copy and pate the solution below:
1) Select the sub option in the KEF Connect app and make a note of the sub out low pass filter setting.
2) Adjust the sub out low pass frequency to the highest setting (so all the way to the right)
3) Adjust volume/gain as mentioned in the app
4) Switch sub to MANUAL mode rather than LFE
5) Adjust the sub’s onboard crossover dial to the frequency noted in step 1
This will send a wider bandwidth signal to the sub, and is significantly ‘out of the way’ of the sub’s own filter to not cause cascading. With the higher bandwidth, there should be more signal at a high enough output to help trigger the sub and keep it on. If you listen at lower volumes (3 o’clock on the sub has done me well personally with the kind of music I listen to at around 40 volume on LS50WII), then you may also consider increasing the sub gain on the app and reducing the volume dial on the crossover to compensate.
Not sure if this would work when paired with other systems though.
Yes please do it! Get an AVR amplifier and compare with a similarly priced hifi stereo amplifier.
I really loved this video and your previous one, I really liked the way that you approached your analysis of the two subs. I have two subs in my room, one that is very close to the side of my couch and one that is near the main speakers in front of me. The sub that is near my couch is sealed and I have it plays 20-40Hz, the one in front of me plays from ~30Hz up to 120Hz. I have built both of these subs myself and I know that that isn't for everyone but the thing that has been a real eye opener for me has been the fact that the sub in front of me is open baffle. It produces such wonderful and textured bass that gives a wonderful presence to acoustic bass when I am listening to jazz and the sealed sub beside me hits me in the chest when I am listening to 'oontz - oontz'. Love it all keep up the amazing work!
Thought #11 - Why I'd like an active microsub with a pair of streaming loudspeakers: my family members at home, who have no idea about anything audiophile, prefer fewer units, fewer wires, smaller footprint, and thus a cleaner room aesthetic. Also, the setup should be easy for them (beginners/not tech savvy) to play music when they want to.
Hi John, Really liked this "discussion format" of follow-up to your review. More please!
Excellent video as ever (please do this type again) and so refreshing to see a back and forth on comments/questions/answers that's interesting, informative and courteous. You set a great example. Keep up the good work!
It’s nice to see a reviewer taking the time to respond to reader’s comments. Nice gesture
For anyone having bass management/calibration in their amp/receiver, the 5 ms delay will be compensated for. But even so if you do not use it, i think 5 ms is such a small delay that I doubt that people would hear the difference in blind testing.
I think there are many other things to worry about when adding a sub to a system rather than the 5 ms delay. Like sub placement, phase and room modes.
I really think that before anyone invests in a sub, i think they should invest in a measuring microphone first to learn if their current speakers are performing well in the room. Especially if you do not have bass management. Maybe moving the speakers around can improve the existing response?
Later if you choose to add a sub you can measure the improvement and integrate it in a good way.
Thumbs up for the "follow up" video concept John. I've an old Paradigm sub that really takes a jolt of volts to wake up. Glad to learn I'm not alone with that issue.
Really enjoyed this and I hope there are more to come. A lot of great information can be had from the RUclips community and I hope videos like this will help cultivate an even more productive HiFi conversation. Thanks Mr. Darko
I dig this connective Q&A corralling & format John. I got my first sub after seeing your “first sub” vid and reading Phil Wright’s T5x review on your website. Adding a down firing sub transformed my listening experience and added a whole new dimension that I was missing and look forward to your 2.2 dive. Also, thanks for energy put into the channel to keep it polite and courteous, especially for people like me and who are still fairly new to this community.
This interaction with the comments is much appreciated. Not sure a new video is needed after every video, but the interaction is appreciated. Always seemed to be a wall I the past. Glad to see you embrassing this more like other you tube channels.
I really liked this experiment of yours, it makes you look more approachable. You’ve definitely got my vote for more of these types of videos in the future.
Hi John, Great pair of films. I have 2 SVS Micro's and use them with a Michi X3 amplifier (no bass Management). They supplement a pair of B&W 705 s2 signatures. It works well and its so easy to set both subs up with the app, without this it would take days to do. As the amp has no bass management the people at SVS advise setting a manual crossover of between 50 and 60 hz within the SVS software (I went for 55hz in the middle). They both seem to blend very well and sometimes I have to switch them off to convince myself the speakers aren't handling everything. I had several questions re the subs, so I contacted SVS service via e mail several times. I cant praise them enough, they responded within hours (I live in France) and their replies were very informative, allowing me to set up the subs with ease. They reply personally and seem really interested in your issues and cant help you enough. Anyway, good luck if you choose to do a 2 sub set up review, as I say it works for me with no bass management, it maybe a little more involved with, but who knows. cheers, Greg.
I think comparing a REL t5 using the hi-level input to the SVS and/or KEF would be interesting as it would be sort of an old vs new or future vs traditional comparison. REL encourage users to use hi-level input and run speakers full range which is a very different approach than the digitally controlled crossovers and hi-pass/low-pass filters used by KEF and SVS.
Regarding 5ms delay. We have two ears and one of the reasons for this is that we use the perceived delay in sound reaching each ear to determine the position of that sound. Consider then a recording of a bass guitar being played. It is quite likely that the bass guitar will play notes which activate the subwoofer and some will be above that range. It could follow that the lower notes from a bass guitar make it sound as if the artist has walked back two steps - not good.
That's my take on it, if I'm wrong let me know.
Is this why there is an audio loop through on the SVS?
I like the format. Please continue with this journey.
Hi John,
Nice video, this one and the micro sub review. I would like to add that I learned about hifi from my mate's dad back in the late eighties and he owned the top line of Kenwood L-1000 series and Magnat speakers MP-X 088 with the MP-02 plasma speakers. He loved classical music and had a additional bass unit which was DIY and is sat behind the couch and there were 2 units of 30 cms in there. Crossed at 150 hz because 98% of the energy required is in the first three octaves (160Hz). This was to me at the time the best system I heard and my mate and I were into doof doof music in the early 90's (house in The Netherlands at the time) we knew where to play our cd's. Great fun. Working in Professional Audio for a few years and learning that the subs are crossed at 150Hz with a 24dB per octave active crossover is the rule of thumb for PA systems and if you like live recordings and you have a similar setting at home I guess it adds to the sound stage. I have always have had 1 or more subwoofers to take the bass load from the main speaker and limit distortion (somebody mentioned it) but that is main reason for always having a sub in my mind but hey I learned that early on.
Cheers, keep the videos coming.
Jeroen
+1 for REL. Now that you have entered the realm of subwoofer reviewing, i feel REL (for better or worse) is considered a critical reference point. They occupy a special place in sub-curious audiophiles minds because of perceived superiority in musical quality or ‘SQL’. A unique focus on their proprietary high level input connections (and it’s universal praise) adds to this mystique.
Tackling a 2.2 setup is an excellent next step (and one I am very curious about), but for a 2 channel music focused audio reviewer, I would say a REL T7x should be your next stop.
It was very interesting John please do it again. Having you address the comments in a holistic approach like that is wonderful for us subscribers. We know you're hearing us and considering our points of view.
Hello John, I really liked this Video. I do enjoy your videos for some years now and I agree on a lot of topics with you. HOWEVER, not on all topics (sorry). Seeing other people adding information towards your point of view added a nice layer of discussion.
Regarding the REL subject for example: I am not a future-fi guy, I like fiddling around with my separates. So a comparison between the DSP-side of the force and the HI-LEVEL side would be a very nice addition for me.
Thanks for the entertainment and keep on rocking!
Intresting!
5ms: human hearing is is very sensitive to the start of a pulse (thats why High Res works). Its wise to delay your main speakers, if possible. It will lock the bass in place, and will even effect depth of sound stage.
REL: High inputs are interesting, because they copy the flavor of the main amplifier. disadvantage: especially by tubeamps is the low dampingfactor (flubby bass) or the early rolloff.
I just bought SVS 3000 Micro after your review and OMG... I had a huge problem with room modes that my Yamaha's room corretion could not fix (50Hz booming like crazy). With this SUB I can enjoy music again... amazig, so much options and flexibility in such a small enclosure. Plus for people living with animals, cat's especially: grills on SVS are bulletproof :)
I wasn't sure I was going to enjoy this video, but I really did! Having a follow-up to your 'full production' videos really adds another dimension and is very enjoyable.
Nice video once again mr. Darko! Hope this video get's alot of views and we can have more of this.
I hope you combine 2.2 setup in your next video about subs. For me it was a game changer to go from 1 to 2 sub.
I have 2 Forcefield 3's now placed behind my speakers and it is just easier to implement/adjust them, specially in augmention mode when you have 2.
Re the questions on KC62 Standby - I bought a KC62 recently and have had no issues to date with them automatically switching on, even at low volume. Looks like they fixed the issue, as you mentioned in your video (or maybe I've been lucky). Ps Your original video on the KC62 was a positive factor in buying one. Thanks
Found that really useful John and added significantly to the original video.
Nice reflecting video. Regarding the high level on a REL, both the main speaker cables and the sub are connected to the speaker terminals on the amplifier. According to REL this provides better sub integration. Also, the reason to why I want your take on the REL is that I have heard many say that the REL provides a sensation in the room that makes low notes with low sound pressure level being audible. Whereas othe brands need the volume turned up to hear these low notes... To me this sounds outstanding. Hearing more from the record at lower volumes is a win! REL also use class A/B amps which would contribute the the sound. The design with an active woofer in the front and a passive downfiring woofer may be the key to the appreciated sound from a REL?
Regarding the 5 ms delay, it’s not about “late” bass or latency. It’s about phase coherence in the crossover region. 5 ms can delay bass notes a quarter wavelength or more, which means turning the phase 90 degrees or more. This affects the cancelation and summing of the bass in the crossover region. This is very audible.
In fact, REW has a built-in feature for this very purpose that lets you record the sub response and speaker response separately, then sum them in the software and align the phase and FR visually. Then you get a number, say 17 ms, that will give you perfect phase alignment. Here, it very much matters if you already have the 5 ms built in to the sub.
Furthermore, there’s a concept in acoustics called group delay, which is like a frequency response graph, but instead it tells you how much each frequency is delayed in time. The goal, of course, is for all frequencies to be zero (leaving the speaker at the same time). This is called linear phase. But this is not possible in reality. Even the best tuned active systems will have rising group delay in the bass. But this doesn’t matter so much, since bass is not perceived like “normal” directional waves, but rather as pressure changes over larger regions of a room. So a 30 Hz tone, for instance, is not perceived with a definite pulse start. 5 or 10 ms “late bass” doesn’t matter to perception, as long as the phase response is coherent (linear phase). In other words, group delay always rises in the bass, and that’s imperceptible, so long as there aren’t phase issues happening at the crossover region.
Yep - good format, one of your strengths is relating to your peeps … while being informative but easy going. Thanks for the hard work John.
ad 130Hz: my interpretation is that the original commenter wants to say there will be distortions from the main speaker woofers if you play loud signals with lower frequencies than twice their base frequency. "attempt to play f < 2*f0 > 70dBc" = attempt to play frequencies with less than twice the base frequency (lowest supported frequency of the main speaker) at levels greater than 70dB relative to the carrier signal.
As an example, if you have main speakers that go down to 70Hz, you should not attempt to play loud signals below 140Hz on them, because they will introduce distortion on the higher frequencies the main speaker woofers also cover. It is better to let the sub handle those frequencies.
I love this video and the format. Please do more of this.
This one is worth 2 likes, John. I would like to see more of these videos. It allows us to learn more about the product on something you may have touched on but viewers might like to know more about. For instance, how you might apply the voicings on the Lyngdorf to different types of music, or even tv/movies.
Great format, John! Not too long, not too short, and addressed some interesting issues about subs. BTW, I am a fan of the 2.2 audio setup; it sort of carries over from my 5.2 home theater setup. From the listening position, it sounds more balanced, and just a lot easier to set up. I do like your attitude towards audio and tech in general.
I enjoyed this video. I look forward to you doing it again.
A 2.2 review/discussion would be interesting. But so would adding a REL to the micro sub discussion. How about both (said the guy that doesn’t have to do the work)? Like you, many of us recognize that subs and systems are audio furniture. So the appeal of these small subs is considerable. Thanks John. Really enjoyable.
Love this format. I rarely have time to read the comments but this gives me a good idea what people are thinking
Very good video! You're absolutely right mate about kef connect app controlling the sub via the kef speakers. Despite me having Ls50 w2 and kc62, I'd still prefer to have a dedicated app for the KC62.
This would also make the kc62 more viable to buyers who are only looking at buying the kc62 and not replacing the non kef speakers.
Love this vid content. Both the drift away from product specifics and the response to comments. I watch your vids and dream of being able to afford some of the featured kit, but this gives me info and inspiration I can apply to my own more modest equipment. Result! 😀
Enjoyed this one Immensely
Fantastic video as usual! Really appreciate the situational centric theme of your videos as opposed to product focused ones! These days, all products are competent. Rather, what matters is which one is right for a given person's circumstances!
Appreciate the follow-up video on the comments John. I found the comments generally useful and went down some rabbit holes about what the "right" crossover should be for my setup. (Spoilers - I just left it at 80Hz and it seems fine).
I've only had my KC62 a month so mine must be one of the "new" ones with updated firmware or something - the sub just wakes straight away and doesn't have any perceptible noise when waking or sleeping.
Very happy with my system and a lot of that is thanks to your reviews John. My Yamaha amp gave up as the sound processing chip aged (known fault, but no replacement outside warranty) so I picked up an NAD M10 V2 and the KC62 to give my original KEF LS50 speakers new life.
I really recommend paying the extra to upgrade to the full version of Dirac Live and taking a few tightly controlled measurements from the listening position. I've created a curve with a little lift in the bass and a little lift on the highs that seems to bring new life and clarity to my LS50s and the bass feels weighty, but not shake the room boom.
Fantastic approach, John. You handled the qs and comments so well. Thanks for your effort and education!
I recently bought a REL T9X. Initially I was skeptical of the high-level input. After using it for a few weeks, I'm sold. It sounds fantastic with my Sonus Faber Lumina IIIs. The speakers and the sub both connect to the amplifier speaker outputs. The REL connects via bare wire at the amp end and a Speakon connector at the sub. I terminated mine with ring terminals so they snug up nicely under the connectors. A big advantage of using the high level connection is your amp doesn't need a pre-out. In my case I have a 15-year-old PrimaLuna integrated amp and there is no volume-controlled output. So for me the REL has a huge advantage. Finally I think the high-level input provides a more natural sound, as it's the exact same signal going to your speakers. It provides a holistic sound that matches your speakers. The REL is expensive but I think it's worth the extra cost. I've actually been considering a second one ... talk me out of it please!
Cheaper than kc62…
I have two T9i and love them, but I have a very ‘unfriendly’ room in terms of potential sub placement options - one immediately to the right of the listening position & one forward of the speakers by the left wall are the only options. Adding a second sub really does make it impossible to localise the bass, unlike having only a single sub in my listening space.
If you’re going to add a second sub, you could consider selling off your current T9 and buying two T7x - if a single T9 is giving you all the volume you need, you may find that you need to turn a pair down to very low volume levels, which limits the range of adjustment, based on my experience. Just a thought…
Really enjoyed this video and the previous one on micro subs. That's a piece of hardware that I'd not considered before so it was very useful.
Excellent video - you are now easily my favourite Hi Fi channel. One thing - as a music producer (amateur) I do find some of the audiophile issues raised either in the videos or comments odd/unusual…some of the things people care about/believe to be accurate/matter bear no relation to how music is actually made/mixed/mastered.
Dear John, would love a video on headphones and cross feed…and your thoughts….
Hi John, love this video - would welcome more comments videos like these, always love engagement like this with the fans - keep up the great work :)
(In a small voice) _There is no substitute for cone size. Micro subs are a bundle of compromises. Don’t fear big subs_
Well said
Great video John, I found both the questions and your responses very interesting. Great way to deal with some of the comments. Thanks.
Great video and I appreciate you reading to the comments.
Yes, do this format again. I'm actually getting close to purchasing the Model 40n, so I'm extremely interested to see the comment video.
John, awesome video and concept! Please do more of these on a routine basis. I would love to see these in addition to your normal video output. Admittedly, this could double your total video output. But perhaps you and Olaf could streamline the editing or whole production process for these comment videos so that it lightens the otherwise double workload. But I do think they are great because addressing our comments gives us viewers the sense that this is a two way conversation and not just one way, from you to us. Really terrific. Since I am commenting, I want to give a shout out to Jana and her great on location videos of interesting vendors and factories. You and your team are doing a great job. Please keep it up! Thanks from Chicago!
Great experiment video! This is a very good format that answers a lot of important comments.
Excellent format change today
A 2.2 system, where you have your subs and mains placed, time delays, phase and polarities set property, is quite the experience. Your subs can soundstage the bass also. Bass drum kicks in the phantom center. Then the lows, can vary. Sometimes it's from the whole front wall enveloping you. Other times, depending on where they are placed in that track, can come from beyond the front wall and sometimes extend well outside of the mains and down the sides of the room. It took me a long time to get my subs right to get this, but once you do, it's magical.
Loved this video - feels like your engaging with your audience in the right way. 🤘🏼
Fantastic approach John! I keep learning quite a bit, even when I think I have the general concept figured out in my mind 🤔. Thank you!
To the 130 Hz resonance frequency comment of M Zrull. (I think)The end means: That the IMD / non-LTI distortions happen, when the main speakers have to produce soundwaves from f0 (their -3db point in the frequency response, lets assume 50Hz) up to 2 x f0 (so from 50hz to 100hz). Not sure what is meant with the "above 70 dBc" (maybe a minus slipped there and it means that they are in the range of -70dbc (so 70 db below the main signal(but that is a very low compared to the signal). please correct me if i am wrong
Above 70dBc is about actual loudness. And since A-weighted loudness filters out most of the bass, house shaking bass levels would still not be registered as "loud" by an "a-weighted" measurement. dBc is linear to near 30Hz. SO, above 70dBc = above 70dB.
For a 80Hz signal, we de absolutely not perceive 70dB as loud! However, the cone excursion required for a 5" driver (regular for bookshelves) will require some excursion. This excursion usually results in distortion, especially "InterModulationDistortion". Which, in contrast to harmonic distortion, the ear actually pretty good at detecting.
This is the most important reason why loudspeakers sound better in the midrange when combined with a subwoofer, IF they have a decent high-pass filter!
love this format
Nice work John. I really liked this Q&A style video. Good mix of variety and details. I imagine a lot less B roll footage too but just as interesting to watch for me. I know you said in the last video you wouldn’t do a how to video on REW and room correction but I think it’d be great. Instead of us having to wade through all the technical audiophile details, you and Olaf could bring an easy to understand version to the masses! Anyway, just an idea. Keep up the good work. Cheers
Great vid, technical and fun.
Great video. Your discussion of delay in this video and the last one was very helpful to me.
This style of video was refreshing keep it up.
Nobody and I mean nobody come close to your videos John, your style/demeanor is impeccable (I’d give a close second to Andrew Robison who is also very good).
I have built a studio with large amounts of room treatment (whole walls and ceiling), as specified by a professional who designed the room and system. I am running two subwoofers, as that does create a more even bass frequency. The cross over point is at 180hz if memory serves correct (rather high) as it helps compensate for the thin desk, floor and some other problems. The subwoofers are aligned perfectly with the 3 way main monitors ( they are on top of the subs with stands) and everything is aligned with a laser measurement. DSP is used to manage the sub and mains, plus any phase issues because there is a slight delay in the sub, and final for EQ. Just thought you might appreciate knowing what I ended getting amazing results with. Not exactly living room friendly though…
Do another one. Enjoyed listening to it on the walk home from the station.
Bravo - love the 2-way conversation enabled by Q&A
This was a great video and much appreciated. Looking forward to the marantz review.
What I have discovered with a good sub if you listen to music is the room. The recording room that stands out more. All small low sounds that are normally not heard. It feels like room information is getting bigger. With a pair of good floor speakers then there is a lot of information in the lower registers, but a subwoofer amplifies it. Of course, assuming that you used a "live" room and recorded in. Just a little point of view that many people might not think about.
Just wanted to say thank for, unintentionally, putting me on to Dylan Sitts. What a great artist. I have just spent the last 3 hours listening to his work and sipping tequila. Such a chill artist. Danke.
Damping factor has impact at driver resonance frequency.
Delay and phase have a relation. Actually speaker crossovers cause delay. A fourth order crossover delays the signal full cycle (360 degrees, full wavelength). If a speaker has fourth order crossover at 200 Hz, the signal is delayed by 5 milliseconds. However, the signals of the drivers being crossed over are in phase related to each other but the impulse response of the speaker is spread over longer time. Human hearing is not very sensitive to delay especially on bass frequencies (except that skin sensation may be more sensitive to delay).
Hey Darko,
You should really look at AVRs from a audiophile perspective. And there are many reasons for that:
1. Most ppl also like movies and there no stereo setup that can match half decent multichannel. Of those liking the movies, most don't have a separate listening/watching rooms. And most of them would not have 2 sets of equipment in the same room. So I think it's important for your audience to hear your opinion on AVRs for music.
2. Any modern AVR will have a built in streamer and room correction for the fraction of price in stereo setup. Take a look at Integra (pioneer and friends) - Dirac live, Spotify connect, Tidal connect and whatever else. That's convenient to use.
3. I love Pink Floyd and their quadrophonic recordings. I love Steven Wilson and his multichannel (done right). Even spatial audio of any form from Tidal or Apple music. No stereo setup can do it.
4. All of the AVRs come with HDMI ARC/eARC.
5. All of the AVRs have easy sub integration. More expensive ones can do 2 subs separately. 2 subs feel very different not because of amount of lows, but because of their distribution in a room. You will find out in your future review of this idea :)
So really, just for fun, try a decent AVR. And if you still think that they don't sound good enough, throw in an power amp like Emotiva XPA-2 (or XPA HC-1 if you wanna be fancy). And then find some stereo setup that will match sound, features and convenience for the same price :)
Very interesting to hear that DSP introduces delay, as a drummer I’ve been able to distinguish minuscule time alignment differences ESPECIALLY in the bass region. I’m eager to test this for myself!
Thanks for both of these subwoofer videos, I'm looking right now and this video helped me quite a bit.
Really like the response vid. It can highlight areas that some of us may not have thought of.
It would be cool to see how one (or 2) of wireless subs would work and where they might be placed.
Nice. Q&A videos are great. Regarding the final point about the disconnect of opinion on active speaker designs vs active subwoofers, likely it's nothing more than familiarity. Hifi/Home theater subs have had plate amps on back for a LONG time, but only recently have full rage hifi speakers been implemented as such. Not only that, but everyone knows how crap most of those sub plate amps are as we've all had them fail. So, you can see the hesitation with accepting active speakers with what "must be" equally as crap plate amps onboard.
In pro car audio, time alignment is adjusted in 0.01 or 0.02 milliseconds, so humans are definitely able to perceive a 5ms delay. Of course, you can adjust the rest of the components in the system to compensate for the DSP 'lag', and a listening room will be far less affected by this because the sound waves don't bounce off the walls nearly as quickly as in a small environment like a car.
The thing is, the effect of the delay changes with frequency, due to the change in wavelength. At high frequency, 5ms of delay may be many wavelengths, enough to put one speaker significantly out of time with another. But at very low frequency, the same 5ms may be only a fraction of a single wavelength. Our ears are also terrible at picking up details at low frequency. Try listening to just a subwoofer. It doesn’t sound like bass, it just sounds like a mess. The details we hear in low frequencies are really just harmonics and overtones at higher frequencies.
Looking forward to the 2.2 video.....thanks for the great content and videos
Well for the DF, its not all about it. What we recall as fast bass is actually more then one parameter. If we simplyfi it, all that matters is fast transient response and very fast membrane stop after signal is gone. And that can and often do happen, when membrane is light. And smaller speaker can have lighter membrane then bigger speaker. And for the DSP in hypex systems. I do have Hypex plate amps. They are great and function is sufficient for we need from it. But when you look it up in Sigma studio, you will found, that this actuual DSP chip can do a ton lot of more things, then Hypex proprietary software is allowing you to have. I dont recognize maybe three quarters from it! And about phase... People who do have measurement mic and know how to use it, they can precisely tell you, that time alignment and phase is veeery important for the result of the sound. 5ms is a lot. We do shift delay between tweeters and midrange as low as 3cm to get the right timing thus phase. Becouse if you dont, then you got simply bad sound.
I completely agree with situation based reviews. Most who are new to the hobby will not recognize brands. They will be interested in their situation. Last week my daughter’s friend, a 16 year old, was over and we listened to some vinyl. This generated lots of interest in playing records and trolling used vinyl shops. I was asked about equipment. So, I made some suggestions that included used gear. I also passed on a high end print catalog I recently received in the mail. My point is, brand names and specs were irrelevant to the discussion. Just how to enjoy the vinyl hobby. I just added the pricey catalog to illustrate how far one could go. My main goal was not to present the hobby as distant and inaccessible. Rather, if you want to listen to music, there’s an affordable way to do it.
Great video, as usual. Regarding your upcoming 2.2 project, I am currently doing that myself. In my case, I am using a third party external electronic all analog crossover from SPL (in Germany). I am using a pair of Amphion Two18 studio monitors as the main speakers, and a pair of Dynaodio 18s subwoofers. The Dynaudio subs have built in DSP which handles the issues of small box with large drivers. They also have a crossover, but you are able to turn off the crossover and use them as a plain sub but with the DSP giving you "flat" response in the small box.
I did this because I don't want to put a sub-standard A/D, D/A section between my primary signal source and the main speakers. The all analog SPL crossover, with its 120 volt internal rails, is really quite excellent and improves my sound quality by removing the intermodulation distortion from the main speakers with their little 6 inch woofers.
As you probably know, having two subs allows you to mitigate room modes more effectively than with a single sub due to energizing the room from two different locations rather than with a single location. You also can get away with less amplifier power and you push the subs less hard for the same output. I still have to deal with the delay from the DSP in the subs, but that actually works well in my setup, having them closer to my listening position. Expensive, but worth it to me.
Please get in touch with John Hunter at REL. Show him this video and get a little more depth on the technical stuff. Someone at Velodyne can also help.
Love this approach👍😎
How cool on this take. I have the REL T5X as well. I did want the KEF but cost was over might limit and with Tekton Lors as my main speaker would not have had the advantages the Kef has.
does size matter John? have pondered this question my whole life, so I went big - 15inch Klipsch in a small room hooked up to a Michi X3 and Q Acoustics Concept 500. Not having heard a lot of subs, I think its a bit out of control and suffers from a lack of tightness in my room. So I'll get rid of it for something a little smaller WITH A REMOTE. I find I need to make gain adjustments for different songs and different movies is a necessity for me. thanks for all your work and podcast which I'm loving.
Hi John, I have a MichiX3 and run it with 2 SVS Micro's. However, I used it with one for a long while and it was good enough.
Hi John, Thank you for a lovely informative video. Your videos are one of the ref I use for deciding on what to buy. Your video on the getting a sub $1000 system instead of a soundbar made a lot of sense to me & am inclined to go that way. The question that I have is, does it make sense to go an amplifier & speaker as you have done or go the LS50 wireless II the active speakers. I do understand that there is a huge price difference. But am more interested in the concept of it. Any thoughts from you or any one in this group will be very appreciated.
Wow! Absolutely love this channel!
If there is another video like this you should ask us to vote on the questions. That way your life is a little easier for selecting the follow ups. I really like this format.
To mitigate bass overshoot and need for high damping factor you need to use sub-bass servo driver, but the most critical point is that the units are exactly phase aligned at the cross-over point, phase differences need to be within + - 20 deg, I could bring my measurement system that I use, AMFG SysTune and demonstrate the difference for you
Hey there😊
That 5ms is not a problem if you have roomcorrection (like in an avr, my forté is more homecinema with a tad of vinyl/ music).
Point is; for absolute best integration, one would need a roomcorrection that measures distance/ delay, and by doing that, will send signal to the sub 5 ms earlier than the speakers. Problem gone😊
Hi Andre, do most room correction implementations delay the sub woofer, or do they just control?
@@neilshirley
Hi Neil. I think most roomcorrection does both delay, and eq nowadays. Older ones usually did only delay.
If you do not have roomcorrection, and only want to correct your sub(s), I would go for MiniDSP and use REW as software to do so. I have 3 subs, which I correct (eq and delay) in the MiniDSP, and then I let my AVR smoth it out even more. 😊
Hey John,
I like REL not just because the High Level Input (that is just one more thing adding to whats good), but because of the overall quality of the product. Fundamentally the integration with the main speakers and the bass quality.
They are also very connected to the 2 subs idea.
The biggest issue is that most very good subwoofers are not super small.
If you get the opportunity to try out a REL, my request is that you review one of the S series. Maybe S/510, S/812 or the Carbon Special. None of them are small to be called micro subs, but the sound they produce is also on another level compared to micro subs... So much that, if you manage to get them properly dialed in, I really doubt they will leave your room 🙂