I like to imagine that Apollo was just playing along and he wanted to see what would happen if ody got released so he just threw the case on purpose. 😂 I also think that he probably saw ody in the chariot of his and though he was too cute to kill
To me, the perfect version of Apollo's verse would be an argument saying that if he allows Odysseus to finish his journey home, then people will tell his story and be inspired to create art for eons to come; appealing to Apollo's divine domains of music, art and poetry. It's also a sneaky 4th wall break that gives a nod to the creation of EPIC itself, bringing a totally different level to the stakes of the game in-musical!
I love this rebuttal so much better than the one that we got! All the respect in the world for Jorge and Epic, but like... that siren argument just felt so weak, especially considering the fact that we ourselves were supposed to see Odysseus as a monster after he slaughtered *all* of them. XD
I think "tell your lover that a broken heart can mend" was actually a jab at Aphrodite for cheating on Hephaestus with Ares. Basically, Athena was calling her a hypocrite, since she too had been guilty of breaking someone's heart (another reason why Hephaestus has trust issues).
Didn't Hephaestus make Zeus force Aphrodite to marry him? I think that justifies the cheating if she never wanted to be married to him but didn't have a choice. Wouldn't Aphrodite be stuck with a "broken heart" if she remained faithful to a man she didn't want?
Yes, Aphrodite was basically given to Hephaestus as a way to convince him to free Hera from the binding throne he made to trap her in. Still though, he did actually love Aphrodite. He was so pissed about her affair with Ares that he trapped the pair in his magical net while in bed together and dragged them all around Olympus
Which, is honestly still a very bad argument. Aphrodite states that because ody was too busy being arrogant and spiting the cyclops his mother literally died of a broken heart, which is true, going "Yeah well, you cheated on a guy who forced you to marry him!" is a terrible rebuttal
What kinda rebuttal is "It's true that Odysseus's mother drowned herself by thinking that he died at sea as she was so heart broken. HOWEVER: You're a hypocrite for cheating on Hephaestus, even though there was absolutely no love in that marriage!" What a crazy concept that the goddess of love does not care about a marriage that does not have love nor has love as the basis but merely as bragging. Hephaestus literally chose Aphrodite because she was the goddess of beauty, she was a prize for him to have, an object to brag around to the Olympians because he trapped Hera and won't release her until they agree that Aphrodite marries him. There was no love in that.
@@songsayswhat athena tried to bring up odysseus’ skills something thats good about him. When she saw that didn’t work she mentioned something respectful and pure that is also personal to heta
She started with things SHE admired about Ody, which tbf she got thrown by getting the first word here - she was on the defensive before, now she's attacking. Buy some time to think of something. So, things she admires. He's smart! He's charismatic! Well those don't work... uhhh what's something everyone likes. Humor? He's kinda funny... This is just buying time tbh... WAIT- He's never cheated on his wife yknow. Loyal man, can't say the same about yours.
@@yourboyneedsahobby Also, if you read the fantastic series Percy Jackson and the Olympians you will find that monsters can reborn from Tartarus.... ❤
@@Annabeth_Chase_Wise_Girl_6That's just something the writer came up with himself, to justify re-using enemies. It's not something that happens in Greek mythology, nor in this version of the oddesey. Rick Riordon made a LOT of changes to fit the story more, or to make certain enemies funnier.
@@hoi6441 Ik, I'm just a huge fan and that was the first thing that came up in my mind. But either way Athena is the frickin goddess of wisdom, she knows that no one is smarter than her so she uses bad arguments 🤗
@@yourboyneedsahobby I always picture Apollo's part of God Games as if he's singing it while distractedly looking at his smartphone (yeah, he has one).
I think it’s hilarious that he was so ominous about it-- and she was likw “whos… them??” And he proceeds to show her her two brothers, her brothers girlfriend, her stepbrother, and her stepmom
yeah they said that, “her brothers girlfriend” is Aphrodite, so they called Ares her brother. They called Apollo her step-brother (which would be half brother, but oh well)
12:12 Actually no- Ody had 600 men divided in different ships and Poseidon drowned all the ships except for the one Odysseus was in. Therefore the crew memeber who opened the windbag was still alive ☝
Not only that but Eury tells him that he did it and he then tells Eury to light the torches, he wanted him dead for betraying him and also the mutiny happens right after.
Yeah, but Eury states that he was the only one to open the bag. Looking at the lyrics, he says “I open the wind bag while you were asleep.” We don’t have any more confirmation if any other crewmember opened it.
However during the end of keep your friends close the dream Penélope said "They're opening the bag" even if Eurylochus was the one who openend it the fact that many more wanted to, tried to or encouraged the act is enough in itself to consider it a betrayal
17:38 In Telemachus’ defense, he literally doesn’t have a dad for those first 20 years of his life and has a mom who’s emotionally wrecked not knowing where her husband is, and 108 men taking all of his food and trying to kill him, so I think it’s okay that he’s kind of a baby. I think I would be too in that situation lol. Also, in the Odyssey it’s actually super sweet. One of my favorite Telemachus parts is: (context: Telemachus goes to Sparta and talks with Menelaus who is like “poor Penelope and Telemachus, they must be so sad without Ody”) “These words roused in the boy a desperate need to mourn his father. Tears rolled down his face and splashed down on the ground. He lifted up his cloak to hide his eyes.” Edit: pg. 155, The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson. This part just shows how much Telemachus misses his father and how badly he wants him to be apart of his life
yeah the kid definitely has a rough go of things no doubt! And that passage is so sweet and heartbreaking at the same time!! It's one thing to have an absent parent but absolutely amplified by the fact that he doesn't know if Ody's dead, alive and choosing not to return, or actually fighting to make his way back (and could possibly never know)
Since the wind bag was on ody's ship and his ship survived he, in fact, does know the traitors were on his ship and he still stayed loyal and tried to rescue them from circe, scylla was a lifeboat dilemma where he had to sacrifice 6 crew members or everyone including those 6 would die to posiedon, in epic he doesn't have the charybdis option, so he tried his best to get as many of them as he could home even knowing they betrayed him, then they betrayed him again with an actual mutiny
@@ophelia8019 imo, it's better to betray 6 men so the rest can live than fight a battle you know you will lose and let everyone die. Objectively, it was a betrayal, but betrayal does not mean there was bad intent behind it nor does it mean the person is bad... except the windbag, i still don't see the logic behind opening it after Ody told them "bag = storm = bad = do not open"
@@Devilspade I don't think anyone wanted to be part of the war? Also I'm absolutely fascinated by the implications of what makes someone a saint to you
To be perfectly fair, the main reason God Games works is (I like to think) that none of the gods really want to be there. Zeus kinda just snatched them, and only because they had no No one wants to get smited, and most of them are pulling arguments out of their asses(aside from Ares, who seemed to be genuinely invested). Apollo and Hephaestus probably couldn't care less, Aphrodite just wants to mess with Athena, and Hera is basically there to do a job. Zeus is amused by Athena's (seemingly) sudden attachment to some random dude he(for some damn reason) really likes jumping massive moral dilemmas on, and now everyone gets to be involved in it. So they put on a good show and hope nothing crazy happens. And then Athena takes a shot at Zeus. Bold, bold move, and flawlessly executed too. 10/10, I have no critique.
(Edit isn't working right now, so I'm just fixing a sentence I didn't realize I hadn't finished) Zeus kinda just snatched them, chosen solely because they hadn't gotten directly involved(Hermes, Poseidon, Helios, and maybe even Hades were off the table).
YEAH I love that all of these gods are supposed to be impartial (obviously aphrodite and ares are less so, but they put on a good show) so it's much less a game and more like a trial for his soul :D
But narratively this is meant to be the point that sets Odysseus for redemption at the start of the next arc, remember Odysseus is a semi-fictional character, an actual Odysseus did exist, and this tale is a mythologized version of the events that supposedly happened, the literal gods congregating and holding a meeting as to why this guy's actually chill and all the pillaging, muder, and treason is cool is not coincidental, it was certainly a way to refreame this pathetic man's failure to keep his troops alive through what should've been a 2-month journey, easily avoidable had he not shot straight through the mediterranean on a laughable display of a lack of navigational skill for a captain king of an island kingdom, if this segment of the story doesn't help you understand Odysseus' mindset and motives, if it isn't supposed to, it renders it petty, into mere spectacle, which is fine and all, camp rules, but there's no reason for something to be *just* spectacle, just as there is no reason to pretend it is intellectual by framing it as a philosophical argument. I just don't understand how that notion melds with this song, and it really bothers me.
It’s actually pretty funny how in Ares’ rebuttal- he sees all of Ody’s actions as cowardice but for Athena that’s all strategy. How it doesn’t tickle Ares’ fancy but that those are what made Athena somewhat proud. Also, even though Ares might be a meat head can we just appreciate how he is a good father. He eliminated his daughter’s rapist, helps his descendants, and actually grieves for his children. It’s good to know that at least one of Zeus and Hera’s children broke the vicious cycle.
Big sibling rivalry energy coming from Ares & Athena, and how all of Ody's "flaws" are reminders of Athena and how people love her more. Also super interesting how Ares (despite the bad reputation) is consistently one of the nicer gods by our standards, especially how he seems to treat women as people which was a big no-no in ancient greece
@@yourboyneedsahobby Absolutely! It’s actually really sad to see that these two are pitted against each other with the influence of their parents as well as from other gods that want Zeus’ approval. If anything, it actually reminds me of the world today- with the younger generations being more competitive with the aid of social media. Neither of them are “bad”, war is a balance between the two: strategy and bloodshed. It’s just sad that people don’t really see the positive attributes easily just because he is associated with the brutality aspect of war. Just that piece should not define him. Life requires balance and all life forms (whether their gods, humans, or other beings) are complex/multi-faceted.
Useful to note is that the people of Athens named themselves after their patron Athena. Ares would've been on Troy's side of the war, which is another reason why he tends to get portrayed negatively; the Greek city-state with the most impact on history is the one that gets to set the tone for the differences between the two gods.
@@yourboyneedsahobby laughs in Hestia. In all seriousness though, yeah him and Hades do treat their wives with respect. Unlike daddy Zeus and uncle Poseidon. Though to BE FAIR, Zeus generally doesn´t rape(?) (doesn´t help that the pose for elope and rape are similar, if not identical) he rizzes, he just doesn´t give a shit about monogamy (which is a big nono, you amde a promise, stick to it you bastard)...but he does somewhat take care of his demigods until Hera finds out.
@gabojill19 Io and the mother of Perseus. Also Ares represents not just the brutality aspect of war but also the honor and sport in war. He likes straightforwardness and fair play without subverting your opponent. He is strength, endurance, courage, and wrath against cheaters and injustice. To clarify what I mean when I say cheaters, I mean cheaters in games or contests not marriage. Thats more a Hera thing.
Some Apollo commentary: 1) Hyperion was the embodiment of the Sun, Helios drove it across the sky, and Apollo was it's affect upon the Earth (hence his status as the god of *light*. He wasn't THE sun god (like Helios), but he was still considered to be A sun god - he didn't become THE sun god until Roman times. 2) Apollo and Artemis are both protectors of the young, because they are youthful gods. Sparta in particular had a tradition were boys entering adulthood would cut off their long hair and sacrifice it to Apollo, praying for a good and honorable lifespan. Apollo is commonly depicted as a youthful god because of this, and there are multiple instances of him intervening - or even *not* intervening - to protect a youth. One example of this would actually be Telemachus himself! In the Odyssey, the suitors are praying to Apollo to kill Telemachus, but Apollo is 100% AGAINST this, and does everything he can to actually *help* Odysseus (Apollo is very narratively present in the Odyssey - you can actually see Odysseus himself becoming less "Athenian" (Athena) and more "Apollonine" (Apollo) as he makes him way back home. (ie, switches from a close-range weapon to a long-range one, ect ect). 3) I know this was probs meant in jest, but Apollo is not a dumbass lol - he's actually VERY intelligent, and is seen as Athena's counterpart as well as Artemis's and Hecate's. He and Athena are both Zeus's favorite children, and he and the Muses are credited with inventing education - he's also the god of knowledge :3 4) Now onto something that always gets me a little irritated, and that's his love life - I can say with 100% certainty (because I did the research) that out of the *58* people Apollo becomes interested in, the MAJORITY of them are actually lovely. Apollo is also one of the BEST lovers in Greek mythology (and the best dad too). Here's the link to my tumblr post about it so I don't have to rehash everything lmao, but TLDR: Apollo is best lover actually, and if you gotta pick one, pick him lol ^-^ Misinformation has done him DIRTY. Link: www.tumblr.com/apollosgiftofprophecy/758917087325569024/it-is-finished-omg-omg-its-finally-done?source 5) now, time to defend Apollo in the Trojan War time too *cracks knuckles* ACHILLES HAD IT COMING THE BITCH MURDERED TWO OF HIS KIDS, ONE OF THEM WAS A LITERAL CHILD (and tried to SA him-) APOLLO WAS IN THE RIGHT. *inhale exhale* Okay I'm good :) Those kids were Tennes and Troilus btw, and neither of them deserved what happened to them. Tennes was defending his sister FROM Achilles (who wanted to SA her-), and Troilus was murdered, dismembered (and SA'd-) INSIDE APOLLO'S TEMPLE. I'm forever on Team Achilles Had It Coming, you don't murder Apollo's kids without consequence (*eyes Asclepius*). 6) As for the musical now- :D I mentioned before that Apollo's rather involved in the Odyssey, and this actually helps back up the theory that the reason why Apollo throws out such an easy issue for Athena is because of this- he doesn't have any beef with Odysseus. Odysseus was the one who returned the daughter of his priest to Troy in The Iliad. He *wants* Odysseus to get back home, so he makes his argument about the Sirens and agrees rather easily so she can move on. Plus, the Odyssey takes place after The Oresteia, and Athena is the one who helps Apollo out with his own hero, Orestes. You can see this exchange as Apollo doing her a solid because she did one for him earlier :3 I am an Apollo nerrrrrd so do mind the infodump lmao
INFODUMP AWAY PAL this is the shit that I love to see! That's super rad about Apollo protecting Telemachus from the suitors (and definitely lends some clarity to the protector of the young title, ty). And yeah I'm totally not defending Achilles' rage, under those conditions he definitely had it coming, I just admittedly like to stick to the Song of Achilles version where he's not an absolute monster, just heartbroken. Also I'm SO stoked for this list!! This is absolutely wild and I can't wait to read it later, the fact that there's a specific "Lovers Who Lived" section is hilarious to me, thank you for sharing and also MAKING IT ?!?! :D
@@yourboyneedsahobby 🫡I was getting sick of seeing "Apollo has a terrible love life" takes everywhere so I did my do diligence and made a nearly-complete list of his lovers (I have recently found out there were a few I missed, but they don't change the overall conclusion of the post lol - I will be updating that when I have time.) I can already tell you that the Lovers Who Lived section is THE LONGEST XDDDD you have no idea how vindicated I felt after I finished it all. Now all I have to do when faced with misinformation is drop the link and go on my merry way lmao
No, Hyperion was not the sun. Hyperion is a alternate name for Helios. Helios drives a chariot in the Sky while wearing a shining crown with the Sun Beams. The light around him IS THE SUN. The Sun is not separate from Helios. The light around Helios is what we call the Sun. Apollo is never referenced as a god that causes sun beams to hit the Earth. That is all Helios.
@@sonofcronos7831 Hyperion is an epithet for Helios, but it's also the name of his father, hence the epithet. Hyperion was the Titan of the East, and the father of all Light (Helios, Selene, Eos). Apollo IS a Sun god. He *does* affect how the Sun impacts the Earth. This is shown in his myths where he goes to Hyperborea, land of eternal spring. He leaves in the winter months, and takes the warmth of the Sun with him, and returns in the spring, bringing warmth back with him just as Demeter lets the land be fertile when spring arrives.
When Athena made her argument against Apollo about the sirens learning from their encounter with Odysseus to fight again, I had a flashback to Odysseus belting out "KILL THEM ALLLLLL!!!" XD So I'm so glad you pointed that out. But I also feel like Athena would totally bluff about it if it's strategic for her.
@@yourboyneedsahobby correction, they did not all die , they were still a lot of them who were not captured, there was packs of them hiding. and regardless Ody gave them something to fear in sailors, that sailors will not just let themselves be eaten and will kill sirens.
@@chongwillson972 I guess it should have happened after that. As always, there are different versions of the same story: in the most infamous he marries Circe after the death of Odysseus, but in another he is banished to an island by Odysseus himself. The Sirens killing him tho should be the only version of how he eventually died.
I mean, in Odysseus’ defence, he was faced with the Trojans for 10 years before he pulled the horse stunt, so he very much did try the “AAEHRHFJJG MURDER” approach first.
Athena did not get time to properly argue the case against Aphrodite, who clearly wanted to dismiss it quickly, as she was interrupted by the impassioned Ares whose arguments she did not refute because they were true; instead she used her ignited emotions as a tool to cow Ares into submission while offering him a better result through Odysseus' release while taking stabs at Aphrodite, which I don't know but suspect was probably digging at some personal stuff rather than the heartbreak of Ody's mom. Athena's wisdom isn't shown by always being right or better but in how she manages to leverage a situation like this, and its clear the two didn't feel up to another round by their tone. Out of anyone here, I believe Aphrodite had the weakest argumentative position and Ares the strongest, and both were definitely not gonna agree on any points trying to counter their arguments directly, Athena's method of convincing dodged having to do that
YES she didn't need the flawless logic necessarily, just needed them to agree to release him! Also that's such a great point that she didn't disprove anything for Ares, just gave him a better incentive
Which is pretty on point with their war style too. Ares is related to violence, bloodshed and honor. He likes being straight forward and fair, so he doesn't keep aces up his sleeve, he simply cuts as deep as possible everyone he strikes. Athena is a cold strategist who's willing to do ANYTHING necessary to win, so she doesn't necessarily go for her own blow, she just needs the other's to fail
For 22:23 , I think it's important to note how Zeus had male affairs as well, with, would ya know it. A lot of guys. Like a guy. 💀 Ganymede is an example of such, who Zeus looked at and went "feminine enough" and abducted ON THE SPOT. Luckily, he was made immortal and the cup bearer of the Olympians and there's hardly any myths that state Hera took her revenge in any way.
OOH ok I was actually trying to find out about this like a week ago but could only find his lady victims (yes I did legitimate research on this lol), thanks for sharing!!
@@jharris3110that is in fact Ganymede. The one stated above. To make matters worse, he was a teen at best. Which is still a kid. But this is Zeus after all. Also, Ganymede is the Aquarius constellation. (Most Aquarius depictions do a woman, but he was a boy not a woman).
11:26 To make this one worse, I think Hephaestus’ first argument was ALSO referring to the Scylla sacrifice since the line “Trust is not given. It’s forged” is to the same melody as the chorus of Scylla (ex. The line “Drown in your sorrow and fear”). Maybe when Athena talked about Ody’s family Hephaestus was like that kinda makes up for it so fine.
Omg cool! I thought that melody was from mutiny "there is no price he wont pay (I am not letting you get in my way!)" But that also totally makes sense!
Love how to Hera Athena states all qualities that Zeus is also know for, then decides actually let's pick the one thing he ain't known for and such a deep burn.
Meanwhile in a mithology-accurate version fo the musical: Apollo: "He destroyed the city I helped to build" (Troy). Athena's rebuttal: "You built the walls and the walls were thorn down by the Trojans to let the wooden horse in. He didn't touch your handywork" Apollo: "That's... quite a technicality but ok" Hephaestus: "Actually I don't have any beef with the man..." Athena's rebuttal: "...So?" Hephaestus: "Dunno, release him, I guess..." Aphrodite: "He hasn't bedded his wife for 20 years." Athena: "Well, it'd be difficut for her to get the D if he doesn't return..." Aphrodite: "...I hate when you make sense." Ares: "He's a coward." Athena: "No, he-E'S A WARRIOR OF THE MI-I-I-I..." Ares: "Ugh, release him, nut please stop singing." Athena: "Pfft, rappers..." *helmetflip Hera: "Give me one good reason why he should be spared" Athena: "He's a hero..." Hera: "Try harder." Athena: "And he's not Zeus' son." Hera: "..." Hera: "Release him."
A compelling lore accurate argument towards Aphrodite is that Calyspo is SAing Ody which inherently goes against the nature of love, but it doesn't work in the musical since Jorge has removed those implications from his retelling.
Technically, Ody *does* actually show courage in a fight, versus Eurylochus. He fights him head on in a fair 1v1 duel, and only lost because of being backstabbed.
@@yourboyneedsahobbyI love it when people use curse words in the funniest ways possible, by the way your descriptions of the Gods might be my favorite part of the video.
Yup. Finally, someone who doesn't just diss them (I'm speaking as someone who's a bit "into" the religion, and a lot into the mythology, and I think just name-calling them without actually reading between the lines and deducing the meanings of those stories - aka what they tell us about the ancient greeks, etc. - is a waste of time)
Great video! In the spirit of superfluity I must offer a rebuttal to your rebuttal at 11:50 by mentioning that Poseidon killed Ody’s crew by sinking/destroying all the ships in his fleet except Ody’s. The wind bag was on Ody’s ship, meaning yes, the offender(s) did 100% survive the attack and were alive by the time they faced Scylla (not counting Elpenor)
ah right you are, that's a totally fair point! let's go with they were already *mentally* punished by big P (oseidon) with the weight of their own shortcomings and the knowledge that they caused so much death (this is the best I got okay lol). RIP Elpenor, sweet prince
When arguing with Aphrodite, Athena could argue that his wife and son's hearts would be broken as well by his death causing more heart break by not freeing him
Well I think it was giving off the feeling that most gods didn't really care about this much. They just did it because Zeus wanted them to. As far as I know, Apollo, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Ares and Hera didn't even care about him (maybe some is a bit sore that Troy lost, but he's only a puny mortal, not worth their time). The only gods who cared for him would be Athena, Hermes and Poseidon (did Hades care that he just waltzed into the underworld while being alive?)
I totally get the same feeling that none of them cared except for Aphrodite, for her the trojan war loss was likely a lot more personal and that's why her arguments and rebuttals were much more brutal. Also Hades was probably like "get this guy out of my home, this is a remote living community for a reason" lol
considering how chill hades is “Oh someone’s alive is in the underworld” “Want me to kill them?” “Nah, seeing how both my brothers hate him he’ll be in here soon enough, persephone.” *he was infact not in there soon enough*
0:44 WHAT THE HELL. I just was scrolling on my phone while this was playing and when you started saying this I was confused and and clicked on it and as soon as I did you said thank you that was the craziest thing I’ve ever had happen to me it was PERFECT timing.
I have had pretty much the exact same thoughts about God Games as you. My first listen through I was like: That weak-ass rebuttal should NOT have convinced Apollo Hephaestus' section makes sense (I guess?), but Eurylochus, Polites, and the other 598 men in the Underworld are glaring at the God Games TV Broadcast Aphrodite was RIGHT and Athena's response, however brutal it may have been, was WEAK Ares was also right but I'll give it to Athena, the whole "Odysseus will kill everyone in his path from here on out" argument had to be very tempting And Hera's section was perfect, no notes. She'd absolutely pull a stunt like that
tbf, it seemed like apollo literally had no clue about the situation at all, he was just the last minute call in and zeus was like "Yeah he killed a bunch of sirens. Anyway get in there and argue now" and my personal theory is that athena convinced ares, not aphrodite, and thus both of them agreed, since yeah her rebuttal had almost nothing at all to do with aphrodites point
I honestly don’t think Polites is glaring- I think he’s going “Nooo- Odysseus- open arms remember open arms nOT MURDER ODYSSEUS PLEASE-“ or something similar. (This is obviously meant to be silly, but, genuinely, Polites’ death was more his own fault (I adore him and it hurts me to say this) than it was Odysseus’ because he was the one who wanted to trust the lotus eaters in the first place. From his perspective, Odysseus had never really fucked up before, since all the rage and the murder and betrayal and such came AFTER he had passed away. If anything I think his passing away was what triggered all of it. At least in the musical version, I’m not sure if he lives longer in the book or not.)
Athena's rebuttak wasn't weak. Her first point was that the sirens were trying to kill Ody and his crew, so Ody killed them. That's all that's really needed against Apollo. And Aphrodite wasn't right. 'mOrE lIKe BuSy SpItInG tHe CyClOpS' Ody was trying his hardest to get home, and was heartbroken when he heard the news. He didn't sleep in or stop for fast food on the way home or smth. And the thing with the Cyclops was a moment of weakness when the adrenaline was pumping from a battle and he just lost his best friend. And Ares wasn't right either! I explained all of this in my comment, but Ares must also be the god of yappers. His argument was weaker than Telemachus.
I always wondered why Athena didn't play the "Odysseus is suffering through all of this out of his love for his wife and child" card. Aphrodite is a sucker for love stories, especially ones involving war.
20:17 In Hera's defense, she takes her rage out on those women, because she can't overpower Zeus...she could ask Nyx tho, a goddess (of night & darkness) who is actually more powerful then her...but then she also is the goddess of childbirth and still drop-kicked Hephaestus off Olympus, soooo Also, every God/Goddess did something bad...none of them are angels, no one is. Change my mind.
100% agree that they're all bad people (or morally gray at best), since a ton of mythology was used as a reflection of society and events that were happening, so it makes sense that not everything went smoothly all the time. Also Nyx is so rad, she needs to be brought into the fighting all the time but is too good for their bs lol
@@yourboyneedsahobbythe ultra humanization we give them makes them bad, but in the end of the day I feel is more natural that beings such as gods are volatile as Giant storm, to be so vast but being contained to such small package, is basically a dynamite stick near the flame constantly
Hera tried to overcome Zeuz a few times. One time she called the power of Gaia, Ouranos and the Titans from Tartarus, and she gave birth to Typhon as a result, in order to overthrown Zeus.
@@sonofcronos7831wait- all the versions I've heard had Typhon as the son of Echidna (I think). Is that another version? But she really did try to overthrow Zeus though - that time when she cooperated with Athena & Poseidon, I think I mean, if fidelity is your domain, and you've got an unfaithful husband, you're bound to get mad sometimes (& I think it was her *job* to punish "home wreckers", and since she couldn't punish Zeus, she went after his mistresses instead. Some of them were consensual, so... But exacting revenge on the bastards was a little bit too far, though) Also, she never seemed to have any problems with Perseus (Heracles' great-great-sth-grandfather) and Hermes (another illegitimate child of Zeus), did she?
4:59 Apollo was the god of basically everything, Wikipedia left out a lot. He’s the god of of a bunch of things,the one I find most funny being baskets :D
@@yourboyneedsahobby yeah lol apollo is basically a god of civilization and artemis is his counterpart the god of the men and woman who have foresaken society. Like Apollo was like THE GOD it just happened Zeus was considered more powerful and thus a little bit more necessary of pleasing.
FINALLY someone said this!! Like did you know under the condition of disease he's a god of death. He's also the god of poetry (ties into music), a god of education (started first with music but then expanded to encompass all types of learning)
@@yourboyneedsahobby im pretty sure he wasn't actually a god of baskets, rick riordan made a joke about it in the percy jackson greek gods book along the lines of "if theres a god of baskets its probably apollo" because he has so many different domains. his son Aristaeus would be the better bet for god of baskets since he was actually a patron god of basket weaving (which he learned from Athena)
While I loved the song and I absolutely understand why it was shorter- I sorta expected the God Games to be their own saga in a way so that each god that Athena convinces has their own song which is like a back and forth between them and Athena like its a lawyer case
Right, that would have been so cool!! But as someone with no musical talents, writing one super dramatic song alone seems hard enough, so 5 or 6 would be bonkers (plus there's already like 40 cut songs AT LEAST)
@@yourboyneedsahobby I was surprised how short Apollo and Hephaestus was really, I really wanted to hear more from them, especially Hephaestus because: 1. Jorge's father voices him, how cool is that?? 2. I wanted to hear more about his argument as I have very strong opinions on Odysseus's crew, specifically I hate hate HAAAAAATE it when people act like killing them is such an easy decision. I get a feeling those people are willing to sacrifice their entire friend group if said group stole a cookie from them or something..
I would definitely take an extended version of their songs anytime, and his dad (and apollo's actor) did such a great job voicing him too!! And LOL I mean the crew diiiiid essentially sacrifice themselves for some steak so .....
@@yourboyneedsahobby It was sort of implied that their hunger was so great they entered a trance like state upon seeing food. So its pretty understandable that they were SO hungry that they didnt even notice what they did until it was too late..
@@doctorenvy9650 I genuinely think they thought they would never make it home and gave up. They can no longer trust Odysseus as captain and they didn't think they could get home without one. I think a neat parallel is how in the Cyclops saga, Eurylochus, despite the hunger, wanted to leave the sheep and get out to save themselves ("captain we should run"). However, now he no longer has that self preservation and invited the danger himself by killing the cow like he thought he was gonna die anyway, might as well die with a full stomach. I loved the performance in this song, he just sounded so tired and resigned to his fate, a far cry from the cautious second in command he was at the beginning.
@@oof9762 They get some things right!!! Like Hades being married to Persephone… Zeus being the top dog… Hades ruling the underworld… Apollo being a playboy… Artemis being badass… It basically gets the broad strokes correct and messes up everything else. But it DOES get the broad strokes correct!
Considering it’s Aphrodite’s fault Odysseus’s mom died alone she has 0 ground to walk on. If she has never started that war, his mom would have died happy and surrounded by her family
ooh or if we go way back we can blame zeus. when in doubt, always blame zeus 🔥 zeus dumped thetis because of whole kid prophecy thing >> thetis marries peleus (to have achilles) >> eris isn't invited to the wedding (rude) >> eris pits the goddesses against each other >> aphrodite bribes paris & starts the trojan war
Someone should make a video of like "Yo, any Greek gods out here? If so, reach out to me and I'll absolve you of your crimes by pinning the blame entirely on Zeus" @@yourboyneedsahobby
@@yourboyneedsahobby that doesn’t change that she is still literally directly responsible because she wanted the hot lady option to be a married women. It just MULTPLE people are to blame lol. It’s still pretty much her fault, the spartan war goddess is still in the sanitized acceptable Greek version of her lol
He’s even less at fault when you factor in that Odysseus did everything in his power to NOT fight in the war. Agamemnon and Palamedes had to all but drag him out of Ithaca.
15:32 athena should just call to romantic side of aphrofite which is her whole personality and talk anout reuiniting those two cute little lovebird sposes and about how he did everything in name of his love to penelope, she should appreciate it
Objection! Odysseus never left his boat, that's where the bag of winds was when it was stolen, and, that's the only boat that survived. Plus, Eurylicus is the one who opened the bag, even though the animation I personally saw had some random people opening it.
@@violetlupus5676 people probably made those animations before he admitted to it, or wanted to keep the mystery secret until he actually admitted to it in the musical
12:27 The crew betrayed him multiple times throughout the journey I know Ody said he'd keep them alive but there's only so much backstabbing one guy can take
I like the vibe of the video, the going in and out of focus makes is feel like wake up with a concussion tied to a chair after being kidnapped and forced to listen to a powerpoint presentation
15:15 Ody did not allow his mother to die alone at all, its was Poseidon who caused that to happen, and Ody mother would not want Ody to suffer and keeping Ody on that island would mean he would never get to see her, meaning her argument beyond stupid.
Arguably, Posidon's involvement was the consequences of Ody's own actions, and similarly, he will eventually expire even on Calypso's island so he would be reunited with her in the underworld. That being said, I think you're 100% on point about his mother not wanting him to suffer and, more importantly, from my point of view, why aren't we talking about Penelope? Not only has everything he's done been expressly with the goal of returning to her, but if she loves him even half as much as he clearly loves her, then she is probably also at risk of death by broken heart (a broken heart most likely triggered by the suitors murdering her son), which really takes the wind out of Aphrodite's sails if she's willing to doom another to suffer the same fate that she is actively punishing Odysseus for tangentially causing. If Penelope did die of a broken heart, would Aphrodite exile herself to an island? Because her actions would be approximately equivalent to Ody's as far as culpability is concerned.
@@ardinhelme687 technically Calypso was going to make Ody immortal and even if he died death could not find him. still can't believe some king easily trapped DEATH ITSELF.
@@yourboyneedsahobby basically, the king pissed off Zues for an actually good reason, he enjoyed killing guests and travelers and also SOLD OUT ZUES, and zues killed him on the spot, and when thantos came for him, he asked thantos about his chains, Sisyphus cheated death by tricking Thanatos into his own shackles and because of that people stopped dying, which caused a lot of suffering cause people couldn't die even when fatality injured. so, when the gods fixed that and then hermes came for Sisyphus, Sisyphus asked his wife in secret to throw his body in the city square, and when he met with hades he complained of how terrible his wife was throwing his corpse into the city square and not giving him a proper burial, and Sisyphus asked can he correct this mistake and punish his wife for it, which hades allowed, and Sisyphus never returned to hades and regain his life, until he died of old age partly due to thantos never wanting to see him again after the incident, and when Sisyphus died for a final time he was sent to tartarus to forever push a boulder up a hill.
What I think happened, when Zeus says which Gods will participate he says the names and "OR ME", so it means that you have to convince all these people or me and in this case he was not convinced and his opinion counts the same if not more than all these Gods.
My head cannon is that zeus gave all of them a 2 minute powerpoint presentation of all the shit that Ody did, so when they got to the argument phase they didn't know how to defend lol, just chose something to fight about then gave up
No, it was highly unlikely that the perpetrators of the wind bag betrayal was drowned by Poseidon because the people that were drowned by Poseidon were ON THE OTHER BOATS. Pretty sure everyone was way too caught up in the sudden storm forcing them miles away from home to hop from one ship to the other before he showed up to give his Musical Thesis Statement.
One thing to remember is that Zeus possibly isn't JUST being a sore loser. He's quite likely pissed at how exactly Athena had just won her last debate with Hera, by publicly calling him out on his cheating.
Loved the vid, absolutely hilarious. Subscribed! I think Athena's arguments are interesting because they don't fully answer or rebut the gods' arguments, but instead offer powerful counterarguments that appeal to the gods' natures/histories (except Apollo - that one is so weak, I like to imagine Apollo as basically Team Ody already and wanted to be won over). - Hephaestus - those who betrayed Odysseus killed the cows, and they suffered the punishment. Ody, though, still has a family and people who miss him. (Hera is **right there**) Aphrodite - tell your lover that a broken heart will mend - Hephaestus is **right there**. Aphrodite is saying Ody should be judged for selfishly pursuing his own ambitions and ignoring those who love him, letting them pine away, and Aphrodite is doing the same thing. Ares - He doesn't need much. His objections are much more personal - he's not just criticising Odysseus, he's criticising the very idea of a Warrior of the Mind, using wisdom and guile rather than brute strength. However, rather than trying to logically argue her point, Athena meets him where he's at, with aggression, passion, and courage, and appeals to his idea of violence, thereby validating his perspective of war. Oddly touching and humble on Athena's part, when viewed that way. I may be reading into this too much; it's a 5 minute song, and only so much can go into it. LMK what you think!
19:41 rebuttal to your rebuttal: - success is not determined by how hard one rams their problems head-on, just how they solve them. - the wooden horse is realistically a better option than any strategy Ares could come up with (that, honestly, is some reform of charging in with screams and giving the Trojan ample time to prep) - do you KNOW what the cyclops looked like? Whether humanoid or an eldritch horror from the deep, it had strength and killing prowess of a light machine gun; charging the cyclops head-on would got more of Ody's men killed. And nevermind POLITES (r.i.p) AND OTHERS SUFFERED THAT SAME FATE! - circe can flick her hand and turn men to pigs, why in the underworld's existence would you possibly not try trick a god and instead try to fight her? - "captain, what should we do about the sirens?" "trick them onto coming aboard, we'll cut off their tails and let them drown." "That isn't very courageous-" "Letting seafaring men die to their songs isn't courageous!" sing all you want, until it starts to lull people to their deaths. - scylla, instrument of the Gods and nevermind friggin IMMORTAL? And his crew could not be trusted since the moment they opened the bag of winds. Even when Ody told them not to do something, they got curious and did it. Telling his crew they were gonna be sacrificed to Scylla would have elicited a greater reaction as seen in Mutiny. And do we really want that right before we come upon the two most formidable sea monsters in Greek mythos? - again, Zeus. It was selfish, but not cowardly. He needs to see his family and somewhere along the journey, it took priority over his men. But blaming him for his humanity isn't right, which is why I defend him when you pillocks won't. Et la fin.
13:10 Unrelated but they were fighting over an Apple that read "To the fairest goddess" AT A WEDDING. NOT ONE OF THOSE THREE PETTY SHITES THOUGHT TO GIVE IT TO THE BRIDE
all of Odyseus "trickery" are proof that he follows athena, that's why he was loved by the greeks, and despised by the roman as they were on the side of Ares regarding war, brutality is what defined Roman while intelligence si what defined greeks, that's why they have such a strong "bond" with Athenas for the greeks and Mars -Ares- for the Romans, so actually none of the Ares arguemnts truly matter as they follow Athena guidance
Okay that’s a bit of a misconception, the Roman’s didn’t despise Athena. The Roman’s more often then not won through a mixture of luck, sheer determination and clever enginuity. When they faced a new opponent they either learned from their mistakes, or copied the better idea from their opponent. Anything to level the playing field. For example: during the first Punic war they learned to beat the Carthaginian navy by building a new time of boarding platform called the Corvus, turning the sea battle into the land battles they excelled at.
Also, different city-states had different opinions on the gods. We draw most of our information from Athens. Guess which of the two gods they preferred?
The Romans, probably the single most famous Empire regarding military strategy being about brutality, SURE. (Mongol and Greek were brought by a single Great dude and mostly shattered after their deaths, they´re about that amazing strategist and not their empires´). They´re brutal by today´s standards but for their times not so much.
The romans did not like these greek heroes because the romans considered themselves descendents of the Trojans. This has nothing to do with Athena and Ares. There was no rivalry between them with regards to culture (that is, no human hated another because they worshipped one or the other. Pagans dont care about what god you worshipp).
Argument. When it comes to Scylla Odysseus was absolutely in the right. If he stayed and fought then more men would’ve died. That’s war. Not all decisions have better alternatives and or are ideal. But I also understand the crews feelings, but in the end of that specific situation Ody was in the right.
I’ve gotta say that Odysseus’ main crew were the only ones who weren’t punished by Poseidon and the 557 men died innocent… I’ve headcanoned that the 5 men Eurylochus chose to hold torches were the ones who convinced him to open the bag, ending in there deaths by Scylla
Just a little opinion with Aphrodite, I always think "A broken heart can mend" doesn't make sense cuz well, his Mom is a little dead and it can't really mend if she's dead
My rebuttal to your rebuttal about Ody about opening the wind bag, (in Epic at least) Eurylochus tells Ody that HE was the one who opened the bag at the beginning of Scylla's song so it's not like he doesn't know. I'd even wager that when he told Eurylochus to "light up six torches" he might've wanted him to die along with the others 😂😂
oh yeah he definitely knew, but he had already decided (a bit more begrudgingly) when they were traveling to the cave that people were going to be sacrificed, but Eury telling him outright probably didn't help sway him at all
For the Hephaestus argument, he didn’t betrayed his crew for Scylla. It was his only way home. By staying there and trying to fight Scylla, the whole crew would had die since Scylla can’t be killed by sailors. The Poseidon thing is his fault, but with the wingbag everything would have been fine. So it’s true they failed to listen. Once with the wing bag, a second time with the cattle. Like bruh 😂
Tbh Apollo's whole part in god games gives me the vibes that he just *really* didn't wanna be there, but oh, lord dad zeus ordered for him to be in the god games so he just has to make up some reason not to let odysseus go.
The other part of Athena’s argument against Apollo was that what Odysseus did to the sirens was just retribution because they were trying to do them worse
I don't agree with that to be honest. Did they try to do him worse? Did they really? Yes they were trying to drown him but I fail to see how that is "worse" than what he did to them. Their method of drowning people involves making their prey want to do it themselves. His final thoughts would've been happy, believing he's with Penelope as he drowns. What Odysseus did to them was mutilate them and then throw them in the ocean, ensuring a long painful death. If Ody gave them a quick humane death, then saying what the sirens would've done was worse would be accurate. It would've been self-defence rather than unnecessary cruelty. Given how the events actually played out though, I don't think I agree that what they wanted to do was "worse."
I like all these points they're great personal thoughts: part of Athena's response was "they were trying to do him worse all he did was remberse them" which is just saying they got what was coming to them still not a great argument though. Nothing to say for Hephaestus other than he probably doesn't care. Aphrodite and ares where probably scared of athena. So those are my thoughts. You made perfect points
Some better/extended arguments Athena could gave made: Apollo: 1) those sirens are regularly killing people. They’re not fun little court musicians. 2) Odysseus actually found a way to hear the siren’s song and not die. That is actually a huge thing and canonically he was crying from the beauty. No one before him ever managed that, so if anything, he is permanently touched by the beauty of that music! 3) Apollo is the god of archery and Odysseus is like THE best archer out there. Hephaestus: 1) The crew didn’t trust him in the first place. They (at least the ones on his ship, including Eurylochus) took the first chance they got to betray him for their own curiosity and greed (windbag). I.e.: there was no MUTUAL trust to begin with that could have been broken. 2) He tried time and time again to save them all. He told them not to eat the cows, he faced off with one of the most powerful sorceresses in the world to get them back. 3) Even Skylla, despite the terrible cost, was an attempt to save them. Because the alternative would have been another face-off with Poseidon which none would have survived. Aphrodite: 1) He feels the pain, every day he feels that pain. He longs for his family to the point it is driving him to extreme measures. Torturing him now won’t make him feel any more pain than he already does. 2) It’s not like he intentionally stayed away; he first fought in a war and then spent the next 3+7 years attempting to go home. Like, he is trying! 3) he was fighting in a war that APHRODITE started (Paris and the apple). Like guuurl, do you know how many hearts YOUR DAMN WAR broke??? 4) What’s done is done, but there are more hearts to break (his wife, his son, his dog, his people). They are desperately waiting for him. Ares: 1) is it cowardice or is it tactic? Is it truly so despicable if it brings the results? Keep in mind they had been fighting for 10 years and won in a week (including prep) with Odysseus’ plan. 2) Having the patience to wait for the right moment to strike (e.g. Troy in the horse), not freaking out about the wait and doing stupid rash things takes a lot of courage! 3) If you want him to tackle a fight head-on so badly, let him get home and let him loose on the suitors, you’ll get your head-on battle (i.e., what I believe she meant in the original argument) Hera: no notes
Addition to Apollo that is actually a strong argument: They are going to write so many songs about his adventures if he makes it home to tell the take (nod, nod, Odyssee; nod, nod, this musical that is literally all songs, we are making this argument while singing a song!! About Odysseus!!!)
The openers of the wind bag could not have been punished by Poseidon, because they had to have been on the same ship as the bag, i.e. Odysseus’ flagship i.e. the only ship he had left.
Apollo is surprisingly a decent lovers to those who live or didn't die at his hands lol but in all seriousness I think he's very interesting if you look a little deeper into his myths in comparison to the other gods he actually feels remorse for a lot of his bad actions ( not all obv) ANYWAY this video is so fun! I'd love to see you do similar videos about Greek mythology or even Percy Jackson books!!
I do love his story with Hyacinthus, and though he totally did accidentally kill him, it makes for a great stat that on multiple occasions his lovers got turned into plants lol. And so glad you liked it!! I've never actually read the percy jackson books but I very much want to, all of the fanart has really lured me in haha
My head canon defence for Apollo, is that he had let ody go as his favourite brother, Hermes asked him to given ody is hermes’s favourite great grand kid. And yes him and Hermes being besties is a thing in myths. Also 7:23 Apollo(god of song) and Hermes(god of communication) probably know about it, also part of why Apollo lets ody go.
@@yourboyneedsahobby THaNk U I live and die for this iconic trio, I imagine them causing absolute CHAOS and their sisters are the only ones who can control them... I like to imagine that Ares also joins them and Hephaestus is the only sane one among them all (except for the girls they are queens )
A rebuttal it your rebuttal of he didn't know who the offenders of the wind bag were, we can assume he knew that had to be on his own ship, given that was where the bag was. On top of that, his ship with the 47 surviving people were the only ones left so he knew they held the blame
At the very beginning of the musical he said "Do what I say and you'll meet [your family] again" and they agreed to these terms. Thats enough for me once they betray him twice after not listening, twice
Part of what makes Athena wise in God Games is that she uses her weaker arguments before moving on to the strong ones, if she can convince them with a weak argument then her work there is done and she can spawned her energy elsewhere. This is more clear with Hera, where she uses weak arguments before using a stronger one. Though I’m 100% not saying that your wrong, just that I think Athena using weaker arguments is intentional and very par for the course when it comes to her
8:13 depending on which mystery cult’s variation on the myths is being told, reincarnation is a thing. It’s not necessarily a bad argument to say that they’ll learn to be better next time.
Objection: Sirens now know humans are smart and will not play stupid games to win stupid prices. This will make them more likely to survive in the future even if they manage to kill more sailors. objection: Traitors opened the bag survived because they were the part of same crew on same ship with Odysseus which poseidon spared. Most likely they know who opened the wind bag too and decided to be quiet about it since ... really? you took the object everyone has an eye on and opened it without prying eyes? They knew and they are partners in crime. Settlement: He will cause a bloodshed for Love when he is back home, making Aphrodite AND Ares satisfied so despite being on the wrong they dropped their case even if they are still not liking him. He will fight all the suitors by himself and massacare them and that satisfies Ares.
for the first one nah if anything theyd be more pissed and lash out at humans not everyone is ody plus all the ones who were actually guilty died so i doubt theyd learn plus thats how they eat it dosent make sense that apollo would accept this argument either second one fully agree last one is mostly valid but it still dosent really adress aphrodites whole mom argument which was her main point he cant avenge his mom cause she killed herself
@@guyhathansaintil5218 We don't care about if they are angry or not or if more humans gonna die. All he cares about is if there will be more songs in the long run and that convinced him, athena being right or wrong is not objective truth its something you wait and see and also "they were ought to make him worse" is another argument she presents to justify him. about aphrodite yes that doesn't correct what his mom suffered but thats why its a compramise. They are still "those actions were still shitty and I do not forgive BUT I like what is gonna happen if he gets freed so sure let him go". The point is not "doing right to his mom" point is "he will KILL(ares) for LOVE(Aphrodite) and thats satisfies me" they are still pissed at him, but willing to let it slide because his freedom benefits them.
@@makaramuss yea but it shouldnt have thats my point nothing athena presented shouldve been new information end of the day the sirens he claims to love are dead when she talks about anotther song she literally CANT be refering to the ones ody meant so youd obviously assume she meant other ones but if thats the case he never shouldve had a problem because hed obviously know they werent all dead (she also dosent even really say thats her argument she moreso implies its the same ones) so yea i fully understand how thatd appease ares but not aphrodite it would have made sense if her argument included penelope because hed be getting revenge for his lover but it didnt so getting revenge on the suitors (for his mom) means nothing because they had nothig to do with her death and so she shouldnt care wghat happens (im not saying she dosent know/care about the penelope thing my point is that what athena says isnt an actual rebuttal to her argument in the song and so shouldnt convinve her in the contect of the song)
@@guyhathansaintil5218 you don't understanding me, Aphrodite is still pissed about his mom and will stay mad but she lets it slide because he will fight for war trojan war was literally a war because of her. Athena gave up convincing her about her mother so she is making an offer to settle.
7:15 If I remember correctly, what you're looking for is whether or not the music in Epic is diegetic or non-diegetic. Diegetic music is when the characters know that the music exists within the world of the story, or in the case of musical theater, when the characters know that they are singing. On the other hand, non-diegetic music is, you guessed it, when the characters do not know they are singing or are not aware of the music. There can also be semi-diegetic, where the music is known about but only partially (ex. Only some characters know about the singing, the "music" heard by the characters is only a small part of what the audience can hear, etc) Most of the time in musical theater, the music in non-diegetic, and singing and dancing is just the way the characters express their emotions within the medium. However, this is not always the case. Since you mentioned the sirens and that singing is a huge part of their lore, I'd probably argue that what the sirens are singing is diegetic (or at least semi-diegetic), while most of the other songs are non-diegetic. (When songs are diegetic it also tends to be mentioned in the text itself somewhere, and Apollo specifically references the siren's song in his argument, whereas I don't believe there's mention of being able to hear the singing or music anywhere else in Epic.) With ALL THIS being said, yeah they probably don't realize it? However it is kind of a funny thought to think that the music was being heard by the characters this whole time and Apollo is just having the time of his life reveling in it. Honestly might've even won Odysseus a few more points with Apollo since he's "a fan of catchy songs"
ooh thank you for the explanation, that does clear things up! and Apollo's probably like "all this singing is for you my man, do whatever you want king" lol
11:58 But the wind bag was opened on HIS ship (cannon by Jay) meaning that there was no way Poseidon killed them because Poseidon left Ody's ship for last.
ATHENA’S ARGUMENT AGAINST APHRODITE IRKS ME SM… “its ok a broken heart can mend!!” athena.. she threw herself into the water bc ody didn’t come home 😭😭 and are we just ignoring how achilles hunted down hector after DAYS of grieving bc pat died like.. athena, bb, ur so wrong good lord
aphrodite was the only one with actual beef against ody and was going for the throat, athena was just trying to find some foothold lol. And achilles and pat are THE soulmates for all I'm concerned, aphrodite was on the opposite side of the war but was still like "oh shit those two are too strong, even for me" 😭😭
And Aphrodite knows how it feels, like she had a son that was her soulmate in that war,and she took a wound for him, she know how does a mother feel n@@yourboyneedsahobby
Please do not forget that wound was done to her by diomedes of argos (another hero favored by athena ) the youngest of greek kings fighting in troyan war. Said man aided odyseus in stealing palladion (idol of athena that protected troy ). And when they were going back to the camp Ody atacked him, only to be over powered and slaped with the flat part of the sword
as someone commented aphrodite has no room to talk when it comes to odyseuss's mom dying. was her fault it was because of her war that got odyseuss drafted and was gone for 10 years and ended up in that whole mess
@@estaveler3288We can just blame it on Eris then for starting the whole argument lmao or even yet Hera, and Athena butting into an argument on who's prettier than the Goddess of beauty. Like okay. Y'all just wanted to have beef.
pre video guess as too the loophole and arguments: Apollo, odyssus tell the siren that he new sirens where about and planned to find the to get information. His actions weren't done out of urgency to protect his crew, he killed the sirens because he could after he got the information. Hephestus: Athenas argument is well they did it first and now he can see people he cares about. Which doesn't tie into the against which was, he didn't trust his crew and he killed them for his own gain. You can make the argument his crew was bad to him, but they never killed him and they don't get to see their loved ones because of him so why should he? Aphroditie: IDK, I mean Odys mum is dead and even if her broken heart heals after death she still went through that pain, though my argument is very vague. Ares: IDk, I'm kinda a mercy person so I don't have a good reason to support his argument for work harder not smart. Hera: big ups, if he's never cheated on his wife, big ups to him
I like to imagine Apollo just pulled his case out of his a$$ because he didn't know he was gonna be summoned
I like to imagine that Apollo was just playing along and he wanted to see what would happen if ody got released so he just threw the case on purpose. 😂 I also think that he probably saw ody in the chariot of his and though he was too cute to kill
I can't unthink it help
@@xxhaiydvexx5951 "mmmm sure that's good enough."
**puts him on his bang list for later**
It was because his favourite sibling(the god of jazz, Hermes) asked him to.
@@Cinderspark9the fact that that’s literally what he’d do💀
To me, the perfect version of Apollo's verse would be an argument saying that if he allows Odysseus to finish his journey home, then people will tell his story and be inspired to create art for eons to come; appealing to Apollo's divine domains of music, art and poetry. It's also a sneaky 4th wall break that gives a nod to the creation of EPIC itself, bringing a totally different level to the stakes of the game in-musical!
I love this rebuttal so much better than the one that we got! All the respect in the world for Jorge and Epic, but like... that siren argument just felt so weak, especially considering the fact that we ourselves were supposed to see Odysseus as a monster after he slaughtered *all* of them. XD
@WinglessMoonstone Oh defintiely, it feels a bit disconnected after the narrative change we see in Different Beast (no shade, I love you Jorge
wow that is actually genius
IN ADDITION, when the Odyssey was first written, when preformed, it was sung!
@@skeletonflower1164I don’t think she was talking about that specific group living another day, more like other sirens heard about/saw what happened
I think "tell your lover that a broken heart can mend" was actually a jab at Aphrodite for cheating on Hephaestus with Ares. Basically, Athena was calling her a hypocrite, since she too had been guilty of breaking someone's heart (another reason why Hephaestus has trust issues).
Didn't Hephaestus make Zeus force Aphrodite to marry him? I think that justifies the cheating if she never wanted to be married to him but didn't have a choice. Wouldn't Aphrodite be stuck with a "broken heart" if she remained faithful to a man she didn't want?
Yes, Aphrodite was basically given to Hephaestus as a way to convince him to free Hera from the binding throne he made to trap her in. Still though, he did actually love Aphrodite. He was so pissed about her affair with Ares that he trapped the pair in his magical net while in bed together and dragged them all around Olympus
Which, is honestly still a very bad argument. Aphrodite states that because ody was too busy being arrogant and spiting the cyclops his mother literally died of a broken heart, which is true, going "Yeah well, you cheated on a guy who forced you to marry him!" is a terrible rebuttal
What kinda rebuttal is "It's true that Odysseus's mother drowned herself by thinking that he died at sea as she was so heart broken. HOWEVER: You're a hypocrite for cheating on Hephaestus, even though there was absolutely no love in that marriage!"
What a crazy concept that the goddess of love does not care about a marriage that does not have love nor has love as the basis but merely as bragging. Hephaestus literally chose Aphrodite because she was the goddess of beauty, she was a prize for him to have, an object to brag around to the Olympians because he trapped Hera and won't release her until they agree that Aphrodite marries him. There was no love in that.
woah I've never thought about it like that before-
Bro Athena was smart enough to know she didn’t need to make the best arguments because her godly relatives were dumb
This is peak crackhead theory, I like it
Yeah, but still don't know why she didn't lead with "He never cheated on his wife" with Hera!
@@songsayswhat athena tried to bring up odysseus’ skills something thats good about him. When she saw that didn’t work she mentioned something respectful and pure that is also personal to heta
She started with things SHE admired about Ody, which tbf she got thrown by getting the first word here - she was on the defensive before, now she's attacking. Buy some time to think of something. So, things she admires. He's smart! He's charismatic! Well those don't work... uhhh what's something everyone likes. Humor? He's kinda funny... This is just buying time tbh... WAIT- He's never cheated on his wife yknow. Loyal man, can't say the same about yours.
Hello, Nico
To be fair with Apollo, he does say, "IF that's true, release him," so I truly think he doesn't actually care
he definitely doesn't care about this man, he just got called in by dad and wants to go back to his music lol
@@yourboyneedsahobby Also, if you read the fantastic series Percy Jackson and the Olympians you will find that monsters can reborn from Tartarus.... ❤
@@Annabeth_Chase_Wise_Girl_6That's just something the writer came up with himself, to justify re-using enemies. It's not something that happens in Greek mythology, nor in this version of the oddesey. Rick Riordon made a LOT of changes to fit the story more, or to make certain enemies funnier.
@@hoi6441 Ik, I'm just a huge fan and that was the first thing that came up in my mind. But either way Athena is the frickin goddess of wisdom, she knows that no one is smarter than her so she uses bad arguments 🤗
@@yourboyneedsahobby I always picture Apollo's part of God Games as if he's singing it while distractedly looking at his smartphone (yeah, he has one).
I think it’s hilarious that he was so ominous about it-- and she was likw “whos… them??” And he proceeds to show her her two brothers, her brothers girlfriend, her stepbrother, and her stepmom
wait you're so right 😂 😂 ~cue Full House theme~
“Who’s them?!” The guys you really should expect
Stepbrother/half brother
Ares is also a child of Zeus Jsyk
yeah they said that, “her brothers girlfriend” is Aphrodite, so they called Ares her brother. They called Apollo her step-brother (which would be half brother, but oh well)
@@pinkxregrets a lot f people just put ares and Athena as full siblings probably because they’re both war gods
12:12 Actually no- Ody had 600 men divided in different ships and Poseidon drowned all the ships except for the one Odysseus was in. Therefore the crew memeber who opened the windbag was still alive ☝
Not only that but Eury tells him that he did it and he then tells Eury to light the torches, he wanted him dead for betraying him and also the mutiny happens right after.
Well yeah, Euryluchous didn't die until Thunder Bringer
Yeah, but Eury states that he was the only one to open the bag. Looking at the lyrics, he says “I open the wind bag while you were asleep.” We don’t have any more confirmation if any other crewmember opened it.
However during the end of keep your friends close the dream Penélope said "They're opening the bag" even if Eurylochus was the one who openend it the fact that many more wanted to, tried to or encouraged the act is enough in itself to consider it a betrayal
Also, the chorus of Odysseus‘s men’s singing deep down, also implies that if they didn’t open the bag, they knew who did and said nothing
17:38 In Telemachus’ defense, he literally doesn’t have a dad for those first 20 years of his life and has a mom who’s emotionally wrecked not knowing where her husband is, and 108 men taking all of his food and trying to kill him, so I think it’s okay that he’s kind of a baby. I think I would be too in that situation lol.
Also, in the Odyssey it’s actually super sweet. One of my favorite Telemachus parts is: (context: Telemachus goes to Sparta and talks with Menelaus who is like “poor Penelope and Telemachus, they must be so sad without Ody”) “These words roused in the boy a desperate need to mourn his father. Tears rolled down his face and splashed down on the ground. He lifted up his cloak to hide his eyes.”
Edit: pg. 155, The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson.
This part just shows how much Telemachus misses his father and how badly he wants him to be apart of his life
yeah the kid definitely has a rough go of things no doubt! And that passage is so sweet and heartbreaking at the same time!! It's one thing to have an absent parent but absolutely amplified by the fact that he doesn't know if Ody's dead, alive and choosing not to return, or actually fighting to make his way back (and could possibly never know)
Telemachos' incompetence is really an outgrowth of ancient greek misogyny. Can't have a single mom raise a competent adult.
Since the wind bag was on ody's ship and his ship survived he, in fact, does know the traitors were on his ship and he still stayed loyal and tried to rescue them from circe, scylla was a lifeboat dilemma where he had to sacrifice 6 crew members or everyone including those 6 would die to posiedon, in epic he doesn't have the charybdis option, so he tried his best to get as many of them as he could home even knowing they betrayed him, then they betrayed him again with an actual mutiny
all you can choose is whose ⚡⚡⚡
I'd still argue that sacrificing the 6 men was a major betrayal on his part, no matter how logical it was
@@ophelia8019 imo, it's better to betray 6 men so the rest can live than fight a battle you know you will lose and let everyone die. Objectively, it was a betrayal, but betrayal does not mean there was bad intent behind it nor does it mean the person is bad... except the windbag, i still don't see the logic behind opening it after Ody told them "bag = storm = bad = do not open"
@@ophelia8019 i majorly disagree, ody never even wanted to be apart of this war and hes been nothing but a saint to this crew.
@@Devilspade I don't think anyone wanted to be part of the war? Also I'm absolutely fascinated by the implications of what makes someone a saint to you
To be perfectly fair, the main reason God Games works is (I like to think) that none of the gods really want to be there. Zeus kinda just snatched them, and only because they had no No one wants to get smited, and most of them are pulling arguments out of their asses(aside from Ares, who seemed to be genuinely invested). Apollo and Hephaestus probably couldn't care less, Aphrodite just wants to mess with Athena, and Hera is basically there to do a job. Zeus is amused by Athena's (seemingly) sudden attachment to some random dude he(for some damn reason) really likes jumping massive moral dilemmas on, and now everyone gets to be involved in it. So they put on a good show and hope nothing crazy happens.
And then Athena takes a shot at Zeus. Bold, bold move, and flawlessly executed too. 10/10, I have no critique.
(Edit isn't working right now, so I'm just fixing a sentence I didn't realize I hadn't finished)
Zeus kinda just snatched them, chosen solely because they hadn't gotten directly involved(Hermes, Poseidon, Helios, and maybe even Hades were off the table).
YEAH I love that all of these gods are supposed to be impartial (obviously aphrodite and ares are less so, but they put on a good show) so it's much less a game and more like a trial for his soul :D
If zeus didnt want athena to win why not just… get poseidon to-
wait nevermind poseidon would want him to be released so he could kill him himself.
But narratively this is meant to be the point that sets Odysseus for redemption at the start of the next arc, remember Odysseus is a semi-fictional character, an actual Odysseus did exist, and this tale is a mythologized version of the events that supposedly happened, the literal gods congregating and holding a meeting as to why this guy's actually chill and all the pillaging, muder, and treason is cool is not coincidental, it was certainly a way to refreame this pathetic man's failure to keep his troops alive through what should've been a 2-month journey, easily avoidable had he not shot straight through the mediterranean on a laughable display of a lack of navigational skill for a captain king of an island kingdom, if this segment of the story doesn't help you understand Odysseus' mindset and motives, if it isn't supposed to, it renders it petty, into mere spectacle, which is fine and all, camp rules, but there's no reason for something to be *just* spectacle, just as there is no reason to pretend it is intellectual by framing it as a philosophical argument. I just don't understand how that notion melds with this song, and it really bothers me.
@@xsxeno well that didn't go well for him, did it?
It’s actually pretty funny how in Ares’ rebuttal- he sees all of Ody’s actions as cowardice but for Athena that’s all strategy. How it doesn’t tickle Ares’ fancy but that those are what made Athena somewhat proud. Also, even though Ares might be a meat head can we just appreciate how he is a good father. He eliminated his daughter’s rapist, helps his descendants, and actually grieves for his children. It’s good to know that at least one of Zeus and Hera’s children broke the vicious cycle.
Big sibling rivalry energy coming from Ares & Athena, and how all of Ody's "flaws" are reminders of Athena and how people love her more. Also super interesting how Ares (despite the bad reputation) is consistently one of the nicer gods by our standards, especially how he seems to treat women as people which was a big no-no in ancient greece
@@yourboyneedsahobby Absolutely! It’s actually really sad to see that these two are pitted against each other with the influence of their parents as well as from other gods that want Zeus’ approval. If anything, it actually reminds me of the world today- with the younger generations being more competitive with the aid of social media. Neither of them are “bad”, war is a balance between the two: strategy and bloodshed. It’s just sad that people don’t really see the positive attributes easily just because he is associated with the brutality aspect of war. Just that piece should not define him. Life requires balance and all life forms (whether their gods, humans, or other beings) are complex/multi-faceted.
Useful to note is that the people of Athens named themselves after their patron Athena. Ares would've been on Troy's side of the war, which is another reason why he tends to get portrayed negatively; the Greek city-state with the most impact on history is the one that gets to set the tone for the differences between the two gods.
@@yourboyneedsahobby laughs in Hestia. In all seriousness though, yeah him and Hades do treat their wives with respect. Unlike daddy Zeus and uncle Poseidon. Though to BE FAIR, Zeus generally doesn´t rape(?) (doesn´t help that the pose for elope and rape are similar, if not identical) he rizzes, he just doesn´t give a shit about monogamy (which is a big nono, you amde a promise, stick to it you bastard)...but he does somewhat take care of his demigods until Hera finds out.
@gabojill19 Io and the mother of Perseus.
Also Ares represents not just the brutality aspect of war but also the honor and sport in war. He likes straightforwardness and fair play without subverting your opponent. He is strength, endurance, courage, and wrath against cheaters and injustice.
To clarify what I mean when I say cheaters, I mean cheaters in games or contests not marriage. Thats more a Hera thing.
Some Apollo commentary:
1) Hyperion was the embodiment of the Sun, Helios drove it across the sky, and Apollo was it's affect upon the Earth (hence his status as the god of *light*. He wasn't THE sun god (like Helios), but he was still considered to be A sun god - he didn't become THE sun god until Roman times.
2) Apollo and Artemis are both protectors of the young, because they are youthful gods. Sparta in particular had a tradition were boys entering adulthood would cut off their long hair and sacrifice it to Apollo, praying for a good and honorable lifespan. Apollo is commonly depicted as a youthful god because of this, and there are multiple instances of him intervening - or even *not* intervening - to protect a youth. One example of this would actually be Telemachus himself! In the Odyssey, the suitors are praying to Apollo to kill Telemachus, but Apollo is 100% AGAINST this, and does everything he can to actually *help* Odysseus (Apollo is very narratively present in the Odyssey - you can actually see Odysseus himself becoming less "Athenian" (Athena) and more "Apollonine" (Apollo) as he makes him way back home. (ie, switches from a close-range weapon to a long-range one, ect ect).
3) I know this was probs meant in jest, but Apollo is not a dumbass lol - he's actually VERY intelligent, and is seen as Athena's counterpart as well as Artemis's and Hecate's. He and Athena are both Zeus's favorite children, and he and the Muses are credited with inventing education - he's also the god of knowledge :3
4) Now onto something that always gets me a little irritated, and that's his love life - I can say with 100% certainty (because I did the research) that out of the *58* people Apollo becomes interested in, the MAJORITY of them are actually lovely. Apollo is also one of the BEST lovers in Greek mythology (and the best dad too). Here's the link to my tumblr post about it so I don't have to rehash everything lmao, but TLDR: Apollo is best lover actually, and if you gotta pick one, pick him lol ^-^
Misinformation has done him DIRTY.
Link: www.tumblr.com/apollosgiftofprophecy/758917087325569024/it-is-finished-omg-omg-its-finally-done?source
5) now, time to defend Apollo in the Trojan War time too *cracks knuckles* ACHILLES HAD IT COMING THE BITCH MURDERED TWO OF HIS KIDS, ONE OF THEM WAS A LITERAL CHILD (and tried to SA him-) APOLLO WAS IN THE RIGHT. *inhale exhale* Okay I'm good :) Those kids were Tennes and Troilus btw, and neither of them deserved what happened to them. Tennes was defending his sister FROM Achilles (who wanted to SA her-), and Troilus was murdered, dismembered (and SA'd-) INSIDE APOLLO'S TEMPLE.
I'm forever on Team Achilles Had It Coming, you don't murder Apollo's kids without consequence (*eyes Asclepius*).
6) As for the musical now- :D I mentioned before that Apollo's rather involved in the Odyssey, and this actually helps back up the theory that the reason why Apollo throws out such an easy issue for Athena is because of this- he doesn't have any beef with Odysseus. Odysseus was the one who returned the daughter of his priest to Troy in The Iliad. He *wants* Odysseus to get back home, so he makes his argument about the Sirens and agrees rather easily so she can move on. Plus, the Odyssey takes place after The Oresteia, and Athena is the one who helps Apollo out with his own hero, Orestes. You can see this exchange as Apollo doing her a solid because she did one for him earlier :3
I am an Apollo nerrrrrd so do mind the infodump lmao
INFODUMP AWAY PAL this is the shit that I love to see! That's super rad about Apollo protecting Telemachus from the suitors (and definitely lends some clarity to the protector of the young title, ty). And yeah I'm totally not defending Achilles' rage, under those conditions he definitely had it coming, I just admittedly like to stick to the Song of Achilles version where he's not an absolute monster, just heartbroken.
Also I'm SO stoked for this list!! This is absolutely wild and I can't wait to read it later, the fact that there's a specific "Lovers Who Lived" section is hilarious to me, thank you for sharing and also MAKING IT ?!?! :D
@@yourboyneedsahobby 🫡I was getting sick of seeing "Apollo has a terrible love life" takes everywhere so I did my do diligence and made a nearly-complete list of his lovers (I have recently found out there were a few I missed, but they don't change the overall conclusion of the post lol - I will be updating that when I have time.)
I can already tell you that the Lovers Who Lived section is THE LONGEST XDDDD you have no idea how vindicated I felt after I finished it all. Now all I have to do when faced with misinformation is drop the link and go on my merry way lmao
No, Hyperion was not the sun. Hyperion is a alternate name for Helios.
Helios drives a chariot in the Sky while wearing a shining crown with the Sun Beams. The light around him IS THE SUN. The Sun is not separate from Helios. The light around Helios is what we call the Sun.
Apollo is never referenced as a god that causes sun beams to hit the Earth. That is all Helios.
@@sonofcronos7831 Hyperion is an epithet for Helios, but it's also the name of his father, hence the epithet.
Hyperion was the Titan of the East, and the father of all Light (Helios, Selene, Eos).
Apollo IS a Sun god. He *does* affect how the Sun impacts the Earth. This is shown in his myths where he goes to Hyperborea, land of eternal spring. He leaves in the winter months, and takes the warmth of the Sun with him, and returns in the spring, bringing warmth back with him just as Demeter lets the land be fertile when spring arrives.
❤
When Athena made her argument against Apollo about the sirens learning from their encounter with Odysseus to fight again, I had a flashback to Odysseus belting out "KILL THEM ALLLLLL!!!" XD So I'm so glad you pointed that out. But I also feel like Athena would totally bluff about it if it's strategic for her.
haha exactly!! She doesn't even need to be right, she just has to make everyone think she's right, and it totally works. That's confidence baby 😎
@@yourboyneedsahobby
correction, they did not all die , they were still a lot of them who were not captured, there was packs of them hiding.
and regardless Ody gave them something to fear in sailors, that sailors will not just let themselves be eaten and will kill sirens.
In the only known recount of Telemachus' death in the og mythology the Sirens are said to have holded grudge against Odysseus and killed his son
@@loonelytoon6523
didn't he live on circe island with his brother?
@@chongwillson972 I guess it should have happened after that. As always, there are different versions of the same story: in the most infamous he marries Circe after the death of Odysseus, but in another he is banished to an island by Odysseus himself. The Sirens killing him tho should be the only version of how he eventually died.
I mean, in Odysseus’ defence, he was faced with the Trojans for 10 years before he pulled the horse stunt, so he very much did try the “AAEHRHFJJG MURDER” approach first.
Athena did not get time to properly argue the case against Aphrodite, who clearly wanted to dismiss it quickly, as she was interrupted by the impassioned Ares whose arguments she did not refute because they were true; instead she used her ignited emotions as a tool to cow Ares into submission while offering him a better result through Odysseus' release while taking stabs at Aphrodite, which I don't know but suspect was probably digging at some personal stuff rather than the heartbreak of Ody's mom.
Athena's wisdom isn't shown by always being right or better but in how she manages to leverage a situation like this, and its clear the two didn't feel up to another round by their tone. Out of anyone here, I believe Aphrodite had the weakest argumentative position and Ares the strongest, and both were definitely not gonna agree on any points trying to counter their arguments directly, Athena's method of convincing dodged having to do that
YES she didn't need the flawless logic necessarily, just needed them to agree to release him! Also that's such a great point that she didn't disprove anything for Ares, just gave him a better incentive
Which is pretty on point with their war style too. Ares is related to violence, bloodshed and honor. He likes being straight forward and fair, so he doesn't keep aces up his sleeve, he simply cuts as deep as possible everyone he strikes.
Athena is a cold strategist who's willing to do ANYTHING necessary to win, so she doesn't necessarily go for her own blow, she just needs the other's to fail
RIP Apollo, you would have loved Glee.
Apollo: STOP TELLING PEOPLE I`M DEAD!
It's like I can still hear him, even now...
It feels like he's watching over us from the grave....
For 22:23 , I think it's important to note how Zeus had male affairs as well, with, would ya know it. A lot of guys. Like a guy. 💀 Ganymede is an example of such, who Zeus looked at and went "feminine enough" and abducted ON THE SPOT. Luckily, he was made immortal and the cup bearer of the Olympians and there's hardly any myths that state Hera took her revenge in any way.
OOH ok I was actually trying to find out about this like a week ago but could only find his lady victims (yes I did legitimate research on this lol), thanks for sharing!!
I swear a few years ago I once read he turned into an eagle and graped a guy, like...Zeus tf 😬
'FEMININE ENOUGH'????? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@jharris3110that is in fact Ganymede. The one stated above. To make matters worse, he was a teen at best. Which is still a kid. But this is Zeus after all. Also, Ganymede is the Aquarius constellation. (Most Aquarius depictions do a woman, but he was a boy not a woman).
@@kokocarillo9931 honestly ripperoni to Ganymede cause wtf 😮💨
11:26 To make this one worse, I think Hephaestus’ first argument was ALSO referring to the Scylla sacrifice since the line “Trust is not given. It’s forged” is to the same melody as the chorus of Scylla (ex. The line “Drown in your sorrow and fear”). Maybe when Athena talked about Ody’s family Hephaestus was like that kinda makes up for it so fine.
OOH I didn't notice the melodies, that's super cool!
Omg cool! I thought that melody was from mutiny "there is no price he wont pay (I am not letting you get in my way!)" But that also totally makes sense!
@@chicanaranja4460 It’s actually all the same melody, in fact that line was initially sung by Scylla then the crew re-introduced it
Love how to Hera Athena states all qualities that Zeus is also know for, then decides actually let's pick the one thing he ain't known for and such a deep burn.
Meanwhile in a mithology-accurate version fo the musical:
Apollo: "He destroyed the city I helped to build" (Troy).
Athena's rebuttal: "You built the walls and the walls were thorn down by the Trojans to let the wooden horse in. He didn't touch your handywork"
Apollo: "That's... quite a technicality but ok"
Hephaestus: "Actually I don't have any beef with the man..."
Athena's rebuttal: "...So?"
Hephaestus: "Dunno, release him, I guess..."
Aphrodite: "He hasn't bedded his wife for 20 years."
Athena: "Well, it'd be difficut for her to get the D if he doesn't return..."
Aphrodite: "...I hate when you make sense."
Ares: "He's a coward."
Athena: "No, he-E'S A WARRIOR OF THE MI-I-I-I..."
Ares: "Ugh, release him, nut please stop singing."
Athena: "Pfft, rappers..." *helmetflip
Hera: "Give me one good reason why he should be spared"
Athena: "He's a hero..."
Hera: "Try harder."
Athena: "And he's not Zeus' son."
Hera: "..."
Hera: "Release him."
these are so great, love athena embarrassing ares into forfeiting lol
This is amazing omg
A compelling lore accurate argument towards Aphrodite is that Calyspo is SAing Ody which inherently goes against the nature of love, but it doesn't work in the musical since Jorge has removed those implications from his retelling.
THIS IS CANON
@@xraeynex He didn't remove the implications, just didn't dwell on it
Technically, Ody *does* actually show courage in a fight, versus Eurylochus. He fights him head on in a fair 1v1 duel, and only lost because of being backstabbed.
Yes
Literally, Eurylochus is said to be bigger and has a bigger sword than Odysseus in EPIC, but he still would've won if he wasn't backstabbed
yeah- like his back LITERALLY got stabbed
24:21 NOOOOOOOOO (it’s fine, insects don’t take much fall damage and that was like 5 centimeters off the ground)
@@Mag3.1415 he’s all good, he’s in a shrub now 👍
Oh good, They don't take fall damage.
@@yourboyneedsahobbyI love it when people use curse words in the funniest ways possible, by the way your descriptions of the Gods might be my favorite part of the video.
Love the disclamir for Athena, you never know when they might be listening 😅
I've read the myths and I'm not taking my chances lol
Yup. Finally, someone who doesn't just diss them
(I'm speaking as someone who's a bit "into" the religion, and a lot into the mythology, and I think just name-calling them without actually reading between the lines and deducing the meanings of those stories - aka what they tell us about the ancient greeks, etc. - is a waste of time)
Not wiser than Athena but definitely wiser than Aracne
@@kaylaHatlol I was just going to say, enjoy being a spider
Claiming to do better than Athena is why we have spiders, ballsy move
Great video! In the spirit of superfluity I must offer a rebuttal to your rebuttal at 11:50 by mentioning that Poseidon killed Ody’s crew by sinking/destroying all the ships in his fleet except Ody’s. The wind bag was on Ody’s ship, meaning yes, the offender(s) did 100% survive the attack and were alive by the time they faced Scylla (not counting Elpenor)
ah right you are, that's a totally fair point! let's go with they were already *mentally* punished by big P (oseidon) with the weight of their own shortcomings and the knowledge that they caused so much death (this is the best I got okay lol). RIP Elpenor, sweet prince
When arguing with Aphrodite, Athena could argue that his wife and son's hearts would be broken as well by his death causing more heart break by not freeing him
Basically Apollo became the god of the sun after Helios retired. Much like his sister Artemis became the Moon after Selene retired
I'm so glad even the gods get to retire, it should only take me a few hundred years to get to that point lol
Well I think it was giving off the feeling that most gods didn't really care about this much. They just did it because Zeus wanted them to. As far as I know, Apollo, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Ares and Hera didn't even care about him (maybe some is a bit sore that Troy lost, but he's only a puny mortal, not worth their time). The only gods who cared for him would be Athena, Hermes and Poseidon (did Hades care that he just waltzed into the underworld while being alive?)
I totally get the same feeling that none of them cared except for Aphrodite, for her the trojan war loss was likely a lot more personal and that's why her arguments and rebuttals were much more brutal. Also Hades was probably like "get this guy out of my home, this is a remote living community for a reason" lol
@@yourboyneedsahobby Hades is the mayor of a small town (if you could even call the underworld that) and does NOT want tourists
considering how chill hades is
“Oh someone’s alive is in the underworld”
“Want me to kill them?”
“Nah, seeing how both my brothers hate him he’ll be in here soon enough, persephone.”
*he was infact not in there soon enough*
Hades just got rid of Orpheus. He's not dealing with another mortal singing his way through his realm
Nah, Hades is a total bro. He probably saw that Odysseus had no intent to revive anyone and wanted to leave quickly and was just cool with it
0:44 WHAT THE HELL. I just was scrolling on my phone while this was playing and when you started saying this I was confused and and clicked on it and as soon as I did you said thank you that was the craziest thing I’ve ever had happen to me it was PERFECT timing.
plot twist, I'm the FBI agent in your phone 👁️👄👁️
I was reading this comment and I looked up and then they said thank you
I have had pretty much the exact same thoughts about God Games as you. My first listen through I was like:
That weak-ass rebuttal should NOT have convinced Apollo
Hephaestus' section makes sense (I guess?), but Eurylochus, Polites, and the other 598 men in the Underworld are glaring at the God Games TV Broadcast
Aphrodite was RIGHT and Athena's response, however brutal it may have been, was WEAK
Ares was also right but I'll give it to Athena, the whole "Odysseus will kill everyone in his path from here on out" argument had to be very tempting
And Hera's section was perfect, no notes. She'd absolutely pull a stunt like that
LOL I love the idea of them broadcasting this in the underworld like the hunger games
tbf, it seemed like apollo literally had no clue about the situation at all, he was just the last minute call in and zeus was like "Yeah he killed a bunch of sirens. Anyway get in there and argue now" and my personal theory is that athena convinced ares, not aphrodite, and thus both of them agreed, since yeah her rebuttal had almost nothing at all to do with aphrodites point
I honestly don’t think Polites is glaring- I think he’s going “Nooo- Odysseus- open arms remember open arms nOT MURDER ODYSSEUS PLEASE-“ or something similar. (This is obviously meant to be silly, but, genuinely, Polites’ death was more his own fault (I adore him and it hurts me to say this) than it was Odysseus’ because he was the one who wanted to trust the lotus eaters in the first place. From his perspective, Odysseus had never really fucked up before, since all the rage and the murder and betrayal and such came AFTER he had passed away. If anything I think his passing away was what triggered all of it. At least in the musical version, I’m not sure if he lives longer in the book or not.)
Athena's rebuttak wasn't weak. Her first point was that the sirens were trying to kill Ody and his crew, so Ody killed them. That's all that's really needed against Apollo. And Aphrodite wasn't right. 'mOrE lIKe BuSy SpItInG tHe CyClOpS' Ody was trying his hardest to get home, and was heartbroken when he heard the news. He didn't sleep in or stop for fast food on the way home or smth. And the thing with the Cyclops was a moment of weakness when the adrenaline was pumping from a battle and he just lost his best friend. And Ares wasn't right either! I explained all of this in my comment, but Ares must also be the god of yappers. His argument was weaker than Telemachus.
I always wondered why Athena didn't play the "Odysseus is suffering through all of this out of his love for his wife and child" card. Aphrodite is a sucker for love stories, especially ones involving war.
20:17 In Hera's defense, she takes her rage out on those women, because she can't overpower Zeus...she could ask Nyx tho, a goddess (of night & darkness) who is actually more powerful then her...but then she also is the goddess of childbirth and still drop-kicked Hephaestus off Olympus, soooo
Also, every God/Goddess did something bad...none of them are angels, no one is. Change my mind.
100% agree that they're all bad people (or morally gray at best), since a ton of mythology was used as a reflection of society and events that were happening, so it makes sense that not everything went smoothly all the time. Also Nyx is so rad, she needs to be brought into the fighting all the time but is too good for their bs lol
@@yourboyneedsahobbythe ultra humanization we give them makes them bad, but in the end of the day I feel is more natural that beings such as gods are volatile as Giant storm, to be so vast but being contained to such small package, is basically a dynamite stick near the flame constantly
Hestia is bestia
Hera tried to overcome Zeuz a few times. One time she called the power of Gaia, Ouranos and the Titans from Tartarus, and she gave birth to Typhon as a result, in order to overthrown Zeus.
@@sonofcronos7831wait- all the versions I've heard had Typhon as the son of Echidna (I think). Is that another version?
But she really did try to overthrow Zeus though - that time when she cooperated with Athena & Poseidon, I think
I mean, if fidelity is your domain, and you've got an unfaithful husband, you're bound to get mad sometimes (& I think it was her *job* to punish "home wreckers", and since she couldn't punish Zeus, she went after his mistresses instead. Some of them were consensual, so... But exacting revenge on the bastards was a little bit too far, though)
Also, she never seemed to have any problems with Perseus (Heracles' great-great-sth-grandfather) and Hermes (another illegitimate child of Zeus), did she?
4:59 Apollo was the god of basically everything, Wikipedia left out a lot. He’s the god of of a bunch of things,the one I find most funny being baskets :D
thank the GODS there's a god of baskets, what would we do without him 💚💚
@@yourboyneedsahobby yeah lol apollo is basically a god of civilization and artemis is his counterpart the god of the men and woman who have foresaken society. Like Apollo was like THE GOD it just happened Zeus was considered more powerful and thus a little bit more necessary of pleasing.
FINALLY someone said this!! Like did you know under the condition of disease he's a god of death. He's also the god of poetry (ties into music), a god of education (started first with music but then expanded to encompass all types of learning)
@@yourboyneedsahobby im pretty sure he wasn't actually a god of baskets, rick riordan made a joke about it in the percy jackson greek gods book along the lines of "if theres a god of baskets its probably apollo" because he has so many different domains. his son Aristaeus would be the better bet for god of baskets since he was actually a patron god of basket weaving (which he learned from Athena)
While I loved the song and I absolutely understand why it was shorter- I sorta expected the God Games to be their own saga in a way so that each god that Athena convinces has their own song which is like a back and forth between them and Athena like its a lawyer case
Right, that would have been so cool!! But as someone with no musical talents, writing one super dramatic song alone seems hard enough, so 5 or 6 would be bonkers (plus there's already like 40 cut songs AT LEAST)
@@yourboyneedsahobby I was surprised how short Apollo and Hephaestus was really, I really wanted to hear more from them, especially Hephaestus because:
1. Jorge's father voices him, how cool is that??
2. I wanted to hear more about his argument as I have very strong opinions on Odysseus's crew, specifically I hate hate HAAAAAATE it when people act like killing them is such an easy decision. I get a feeling those people are willing to sacrifice their entire friend group if said group stole a cookie from them or something..
I would definitely take an extended version of their songs anytime, and his dad (and apollo's actor) did such a great job voicing him too!! And LOL I mean the crew diiiiid essentially sacrifice themselves for some steak so .....
@@yourboyneedsahobby It was sort of implied that their hunger was so great they entered a trance like state upon seeing food. So its pretty understandable that they were SO hungry that they didnt even notice what they did until it was too late..
@@doctorenvy9650 I genuinely think they thought they would never make it home and gave up. They can no longer trust Odysseus as captain and they didn't think they could get home without one. I think a neat parallel is how in the Cyclops saga, Eurylochus, despite the hunger, wanted to leave the sheep and get out to save themselves ("captain we should run"). However, now he no longer has that self preservation and invited the danger himself by killing the cow like he thought he was gonna die anyway, might as well die with a full stomach. I loved the performance in this song, he just sounded so tired and resigned to his fate, a far cry from the cautious second in command he was at the beginning.
“if you’ve read lore olympus you know he’s the worst”
Because notoriously Lord Olympus is the myth literalism enciclopedia
are you telling me that the ancient greeks didn't have cell phones and go to college LOL
@@yourboyneedsahobby I'm an ancient greek and I can confirm we do
Lore Olympus sucks so much I can't understand why anyone would use THAT as an source of knowledge for the greek gods
@@oof9762
They get some things right!!! Like Hades being married to Persephone… Zeus being the top dog… Hades ruling the underworld… Apollo being a playboy… Artemis being badass…
It basically gets the broad strokes correct and messes up everything else. But it DOES get the broad strokes correct!
@@LostGirl04 But Apollo isn't a playboy :((( don't talk about my baby like that 😭😭
Considering it’s Aphrodite’s fault Odysseus’s mom died alone she has 0 ground to walk on. If she has never started that war, his mom would have died happy and surrounded by her family
ooh or if we go way back we can blame zeus. when in doubt, always blame zeus 🔥
zeus dumped thetis because of whole kid prophecy thing >> thetis marries peleus (to have achilles) >> eris isn't invited to the wedding (rude) >> eris pits the goddesses against each other >> aphrodite bribes paris & starts the trojan war
Someone should make a video of like "Yo, any Greek gods out here? If so, reach out to me and I'll absolve you of your crimes by pinning the blame entirely on Zeus"
@@yourboyneedsahobby
@@yourboyneedsahobby that doesn’t change that she is still literally directly responsible because she wanted the hot lady option to be a married women. It just MULTPLE people are to blame lol. It’s still pretty much her fault, the spartan war goddess is still in the sanitized acceptable Greek version of her lol
He’s even less at fault when you factor in that Odysseus did everything in his power to NOT fight in the war. Agamemnon and Palamedes had to all but drag him out of Ithaca.
@vanilla4983 yeah he definitely didn't think that one through when he made the pact lol
counterpoint: none of them actually cared enough to think of any further counterpoint and so just went "whatever"
15:32 athena should just call to romantic side of aphrofite which is her whole personality and talk anout reuiniting those two cute little lovebird sposes and about how he did everything in name of his love to penelope, she should appreciate it
Objection! Odysseus never left his boat, that's where the bag of winds was when it was stolen, and, that's the only boat that survived. Plus, Eurylicus is the one who opened the bag, even though the animation I personally saw had some random people opening it.
He even admits it IN EPIC, so I don't know how so many people missed that
@@violetlupus5676 people probably made those animations before he admitted to it, or wanted to keep the mystery secret until he actually admitted to it in the musical
We should have left the line "give me that baby,and I'll yeet it off a tower" for Hera talking to Hephaestus
12:27
The crew betrayed him multiple times throughout the journey I know Ody said he'd keep them alive but there's only so much backstabbing one guy can take
Fr like once or twice I get it but HOW MANY TIMES ITS BEEN 12 YEARS
12:42 'aphrodite *grabs her bazonka by mistake* sorry ma'am" I LOVE THAT
BAHHA
it was an aCCIENT she deserved an apology
@@yourboyneedsahobby YAYA I GOT A REPLY HII!!
I like the vibe of the video, the going in and out of focus makes is feel like wake up with a concussion tied to a chair after being kidnapped and forced to listen to a powerpoint presentation
my plan is working perfectly lol
Aphrodite: his mother DIED OF A BROKEN HEART
Athena: that is NOT MY PROBLEM
Eurylochus opened the bag, he admitted it i think litterally in the opening of scylla
19:24 to be fair even the gods fear scylla so what did Ares expect him to do.
That's what I'm saying!
I don't fully agree on everything, but it's really fun to watch
haha the fun is what really matters
15:10 rebuttal, the underworld. when he met his mom he recognised what happened apologised and thinks of her to this day in "love in paradise"
0:45 ween you zone out in class with a really nice teacher
Fun fact: Ares is a better father than most gods
15:15
Ody did not allow his mother to die alone at all, its was Poseidon who caused that to happen, and Ody mother would not want Ody to suffer and keeping Ody on that island would mean he would never get to see her, meaning her argument beyond stupid.
Arguably, Posidon's involvement was the consequences of Ody's own actions, and similarly, he will eventually expire even on Calypso's island so he would be reunited with her in the underworld. That being said, I think you're 100% on point about his mother not wanting him to suffer and, more importantly, from my point of view, why aren't we talking about Penelope? Not only has everything he's done been expressly with the goal of returning to her, but if she loves him even half as much as he clearly loves her, then she is probably also at risk of death by broken heart (a broken heart most likely triggered by the suitors murdering her son), which really takes the wind out of Aphrodite's sails if she's willing to doom another to suffer the same fate that she is actively punishing Odysseus for tangentially causing. If Penelope did die of a broken heart, would Aphrodite exile herself to an island? Because her actions would be approximately equivalent to Ody's as far as culpability is concerned.
@@ardinhelme687
technically Calypso was going to make Ody immortal and even if he died death could not find him.
still can't believe some king easily trapped DEATH ITSELF.
@@ardinhelme687 OOH this is a super rad point 💯💯
@@chongwillson972 lol Thanatos was probably having an off day and wound up shoved in a box and will never live it down, work amiright?
@@yourboyneedsahobby
basically, the king pissed off Zues for an actually good reason, he enjoyed killing guests and travelers and also SOLD OUT ZUES, and zues killed him on the spot, and when thantos came for him, he asked thantos about his chains, Sisyphus cheated death by tricking Thanatos into his own shackles and because of that people stopped dying, which caused a lot of suffering cause people couldn't die even when fatality injured.
so, when the gods fixed that and then hermes came for Sisyphus, Sisyphus asked his wife in secret to throw his body in the city square, and when he met with hades he complained of how terrible his wife was throwing his corpse into the city square and not giving him a proper burial, and Sisyphus asked can he correct this mistake and punish his wife for it, which hades allowed, and Sisyphus never returned to hades and regain his life, until he died of old age partly due to thantos never wanting to see him again after the incident, and when Sisyphus died for a final time he was sent to tartarus to forever push a boulder up a hill.
What I think happened, when Zeus says which Gods will participate he says the names and "OR ME", so it means that you have to convince all these people or me and in this case he was not convinced and his opinion counts the same if not more than all these Gods.
My head cannon is that zeus gave all of them a 2 minute powerpoint presentation of all the shit that Ody did, so when they got to the argument phase they didn't know how to defend lol, just chose something to fight about then gave up
HAHA this is so good 😂😂 They definitely all have the vibe of "I don't know what I'm doing but I'm here nonetheless" lol
@@yourboyneedsahobby yup, "gotta try if I don't wanna be fried"😂😂
No, it was highly unlikely that the perpetrators of the wind bag betrayal was drowned by Poseidon because the people that were drowned by Poseidon were ON THE OTHER BOATS. Pretty sure everyone was way too caught up in the sudden storm forcing them miles away from home to hop from one ship to the other before he showed up to give his Musical Thesis Statement.
that "Stream suspended" gave me flashbacks how could you
I like to bring the comedy and pain 😈
One thing to remember is that Zeus possibly isn't JUST being a sore loser. He's quite likely pissed at how exactly Athena had just won her last debate with Hera, by publicly calling him out on his cheating.
Loved the vid, absolutely hilarious. Subscribed!
I think Athena's arguments are interesting because they don't fully answer or rebut the gods' arguments, but instead offer powerful counterarguments that appeal to the gods' natures/histories (except Apollo - that one is so weak, I like to imagine Apollo as basically Team Ody already and wanted to be won over).
- Hephaestus - those who betrayed Odysseus killed the cows, and they suffered the punishment. Ody, though, still has a family and people who miss him. (Hera is **right there**)
Aphrodite - tell your lover that a broken heart will mend - Hephaestus is **right there**. Aphrodite is saying Ody should be judged for selfishly pursuing his own ambitions and ignoring those who love him, letting them pine away, and Aphrodite is doing the same thing.
Ares - He doesn't need much. His objections are much more personal - he's not just criticising Odysseus, he's criticising the very idea of a Warrior of the Mind, using wisdom and guile rather than brute strength. However, rather than trying to logically argue her point, Athena meets him where he's at, with aggression, passion, and courage, and appeals to his idea of violence, thereby validating his perspective of war. Oddly touching and humble on Athena's part, when viewed that way.
I may be reading into this too much; it's a 5 minute song, and only so much can go into it. LMK what you think!
lol then we're both reading into this too much, but ~at least we're having fun~ :D
19:41 rebuttal to your rebuttal:
- success is not determined by how hard one rams their problems head-on, just how they solve them.
- the wooden horse is realistically a better option than any strategy Ares could come up with (that, honestly, is some reform of charging in with screams and giving the Trojan ample time to prep)
- do you KNOW what the cyclops looked like? Whether humanoid or an eldritch horror from the deep, it had strength and killing prowess of a light machine gun; charging the cyclops head-on would got more of Ody's men killed. And nevermind POLITES (r.i.p) AND OTHERS SUFFERED THAT SAME FATE!
- circe can flick her hand and turn men to pigs, why in the underworld's existence would you possibly not try trick a god and instead try to fight her?
- "captain, what should we do about the sirens?" "trick them onto coming aboard, we'll cut off their tails and let them drown." "That isn't very courageous-" "Letting seafaring men die to their songs isn't courageous!" sing all you want, until it starts to lull people to their deaths.
- scylla, instrument of the Gods and nevermind friggin IMMORTAL? And his crew could not be trusted since the moment they opened the bag of winds. Even when Ody told them not to do something, they got curious and did it. Telling his crew they were gonna be sacrificed to Scylla would have elicited a greater reaction as seen in Mutiny. And do we really want that right before we come upon the two most formidable sea monsters in Greek mythos?
- again, Zeus. It was selfish, but not cowardly. He needs to see his family and somewhere along the journey, it took priority over his men. But blaming him for his humanity isn't right, which is why I defend him when you pillocks won't.
Et la fin.
13:10 Unrelated but they were fighting over an Apple that read "To the fairest goddess" AT A WEDDING.
NOT ONE OF THOSE THREE PETTY SHITES THOUGHT TO GIVE IT TO THE BRIDE
all of Odyseus "trickery" are proof that he follows athena, that's why he was loved by the greeks, and despised by the roman as they were on the side of Ares regarding war, brutality is what defined Roman while intelligence si what defined greeks, that's why they have such a strong "bond" with Athenas for the greeks and Mars -Ares- for the Romans, so actually none of the Ares arguemnts truly matter as they follow Athena guidance
totally! his beef seemed to lie more with athena than odysseus, very much a jealous sibling vibe going on lol
Okay that’s a bit of a misconception, the Roman’s didn’t despise Athena. The Roman’s more often then not won through a mixture of luck, sheer determination and clever enginuity. When they faced a new opponent they either learned from their mistakes, or copied the better idea from their opponent. Anything to level the playing field. For example: during the first Punic war they learned to beat the Carthaginian navy by building a new time of boarding platform called the Corvus, turning the sea battle into the land battles they excelled at.
Also, different city-states had different opinions on the gods. We draw most of our information from Athens. Guess which of the two gods they preferred?
The Romans, probably the single most famous Empire regarding military strategy being about brutality, SURE. (Mongol and Greek were brought by a single Great dude and mostly shattered after their deaths, they´re about that amazing strategist and not their empires´). They´re brutal by today´s standards but for their times not so much.
The romans did not like these greek heroes because the romans considered themselves descendents of the Trojans. This has nothing to do with Athena and Ares. There was no rivalry between them with regards to culture (that is, no human hated another because they worshipped one or the other. Pagans dont care about what god you worshipp).
The only hope I have for Athena is that she still has a big role in the Odysssey later on, so she can't die yet.
we 👏 love 👏 plot 👏 armor 👏
Argument. When it comes to Scylla Odysseus was absolutely in the right. If he stayed and fought then more men would’ve died. That’s war. Not all decisions have better alternatives and or are ideal. But I also understand the crews feelings, but in the end of that specific situation Ody was in the right.
Absolutely hilarious and on point.
The Mantis at the end was just chef's kiss.
He's fine don't worry, he's living it up in a shrub now lol
I’ve gotta say that Odysseus’ main crew were the only ones who weren’t punished by Poseidon and the 557 men died innocent… I’ve headcanoned that the 5 men Eurylochus chose to hold torches were the ones who convinced him to open the bag, ending in there deaths by Scylla
ooh I like that idea that they were his co-conspirators and he unknowingly killed them, very twisted and karmic
Just a little opinion with Aphrodite, I always think "A broken heart can mend" doesn't make sense cuz well, his Mom is a little dead and it can't really mend if she's dead
4:16 Athena, aka the aro ace goddess and spitter of Aphrodite.
My rebuttal to your rebuttal about Ody about opening the wind bag, (in Epic at least) Eurylochus tells Ody that HE was the one who opened the bag at the beginning of Scylla's song so it's not like he doesn't know. I'd even wager that when he told Eurylochus to "light up six torches" he might've wanted him to die along with the others 😂😂
oh yeah he definitely knew, but he had already decided (a bit more begrudgingly) when they were traveling to the cave that people were going to be sacrificed, but Eury telling him outright probably didn't help sway him at all
Apollo had to compensate for his sisters lack of suitors
LOL you get it 👏👏
Love the humor along with this presentation, Subscribed!
For the Hephaestus argument, he didn’t betrayed his crew for Scylla. It was his only way home. By staying there and trying to fight Scylla, the whole crew would had die since Scylla can’t be killed by sailors.
The Poseidon thing is his fault, but with the wingbag everything would have been fine. So it’s true they failed to listen. Once with the wing bag, a second time with the cattle. Like bruh 😂
Ares is the main god for the amazons and was called a protector of women.
and that's why the ancient greeks hated him and why we love him LOL
@yourboyneedsahobby the Spartans loved him funny enough. It was the Athenains who wrote everything down that hated him.
@@gelibrva472they barely loved him. He wasn’t even their patron god
Tbh Apollo's whole part in god games gives me the vibes that he just *really* didn't wanna be there, but oh, lord dad zeus ordered for him to be in the god games so he just has to make up some reason not to let odysseus go.
HELP I LOVE THIS- LOVE EPIC AND YOUR HUMOUR
You have just earned yourself a subscriber ;D
The other part of Athena’s argument against Apollo was that what Odysseus did to the sirens was just retribution because they were trying to do them worse
I don't agree with that to be honest. Did they try to do him worse? Did they really? Yes they were trying to drown him but I fail to see how that is "worse" than what he did to them. Their method of drowning people involves making their prey want to do it themselves. His final thoughts would've been happy, believing he's with Penelope as he drowns. What Odysseus did to them was mutilate them and then throw them in the ocean, ensuring a long painful death. If Ody gave them a quick humane death, then saying what the sirens would've done was worse would be accurate. It would've been self-defence rather than unnecessary cruelty. Given how the events actually played out though, I don't think I agree that what they wanted to do was "worse."
@@ohood1788 fully agree aso theres 0 reason apollo wpuldnt know the sirens do that if he supposedly likes their singig so why does he eve care
I like all these points they're great personal thoughts: part of Athena's response was "they were trying to do him worse all he did was remberse them" which is just saying they got what was coming to them still not a great argument though. Nothing to say for Hephaestus other than he probably doesn't care. Aphrodite and ares where probably scared of athena. So those are my thoughts. You made perfect points
Some better/extended arguments Athena could gave made:
Apollo:
1) those sirens are regularly killing people. They’re not fun little court musicians.
2) Odysseus actually found a way to hear the siren’s song and not die. That is actually a huge thing and canonically he was crying from the beauty. No one before him ever managed that, so if anything, he is permanently touched by the beauty of that music!
3) Apollo is the god of archery and Odysseus is like THE best archer out there.
Hephaestus:
1) The crew didn’t trust him in the first place. They (at least the ones on his ship, including Eurylochus) took the first chance they got to betray him for their own curiosity and greed (windbag). I.e.: there was no MUTUAL trust to begin with that could have been broken.
2) He tried time and time again to save them all. He told them not to eat the cows, he faced off with one of the most powerful sorceresses in the world to get them back.
3) Even Skylla, despite the terrible cost, was an attempt to save them. Because the alternative would have been another face-off with Poseidon which none would have survived.
Aphrodite:
1) He feels the pain, every day he feels that pain. He longs for his family to the point it is driving him to extreme measures. Torturing him now won’t make him feel any more pain than he already does.
2) It’s not like he intentionally stayed away; he first fought in a war and then spent the next 3+7 years attempting to go home. Like, he is trying!
3) he was fighting in a war that APHRODITE started (Paris and the apple). Like guuurl, do you know how many hearts YOUR DAMN WAR broke???
4) What’s done is done, but there are more hearts to break (his wife, his son, his dog, his people). They are desperately waiting for him.
Ares:
1) is it cowardice or is it tactic? Is it truly so despicable if it brings the results? Keep in mind they had been fighting for 10 years and won in a week (including prep) with Odysseus’ plan.
2) Having the patience to wait for the right moment to strike (e.g. Troy in the horse), not freaking out about the wait and doing stupid rash things takes a lot of courage!
3) If you want him to tackle a fight head-on so badly, let him get home and let him loose on the suitors, you’ll get your head-on battle (i.e., what I believe she meant in the original argument)
Hera: no notes
Addition to Apollo that is actually a strong argument:
They are going to write so many songs about his adventures if he makes it home to tell the take (nod, nod, Odyssee; nod, nod, this musical that is literally all songs, we are making this argument while singing a song!! About Odysseus!!!)
Would love a powerpoint video from you of "why you should listen to Epic the Musical"
ooh that's a great idea, maybe before Ithica Saga cause aint no way it'll happen before Vengeance Saga lol
No rush
The openers of the wind bag could not have been punished by Poseidon, because they had to have been on the same ship as the bag, i.e. Odysseus’ flagship i.e. the only ship he had left.
Apollo is surprisingly a decent lovers to those who live or didn't die at his hands lol
but in all seriousness I think he's very interesting if you look a little deeper into his myths
in comparison to the other gods he actually feels remorse for a lot of his bad actions ( not all obv)
ANYWAY this video is so fun! I'd love to see you do similar videos about Greek mythology or even Percy Jackson books!!
I do love his story with Hyacinthus, and though he totally did accidentally kill him, it makes for a great stat that on multiple occasions his lovers got turned into plants lol.
And so glad you liked it!! I've never actually read the percy jackson books but I very much want to, all of the fanart has really lured me in haha
@@yourboyneedsahobbyTechnically it was worse than an accident, it was a SET UP! (Damn you, Zephyr)
@HellIsForeverWithInfinite ~shakes fist at the west wind~
My head canon defence for Apollo, is that he had let ody go as his favourite brother, Hermes asked him to given ody is hermes’s favourite great grand kid.
And yes him and Hermes being besties is a thing in myths.
Also 7:23 Apollo(god of song) and Hermes(god of communication) probably know about it, also part of why Apollo lets ody go.
those two idiots (said lovingly) and dionysus are quite the chaotic boy band
@@yourboyneedsahobby the three gods of parties.
@@yourboyneedsahobby THaNk U I live and die for this iconic trio, I imagine them causing absolute CHAOS and their sisters are the only ones who can control them... I like to imagine that Ares also joins them and Hephaestus is the only sane one among them all (except for the girls they are queens )
A rebuttal it your rebuttal of he didn't know who the offenders of the wind bag were, we can assume he knew that had to be on his own ship, given that was where the bag was. On top of that, his ship with the 47 surviving people were the only ones left so he knew they held the blame
” a broken heart can mend” well not if it’s dead
There's also to say that Ares is one of the few gods that fiercily protects his daughter against unwanted attentions.
@@gabrielecalabrese2906 the more I’m learning about Ares the more I like him
The stream dying joke at 24:00 needs more appreciation.
0:45 I was doing some cleaning and this part came on and I looked up as the camera focused and I was like “how did they know???!”
At the very beginning of the musical he said "Do what I say and you'll meet [your family] again" and they agreed to these terms. Thats enough for me once they betray him twice after not listening, twice
FAIR POINT !!
12:05 if I’m not mistaken, it was Eurylochus’ idea to open that bag…? He said so himself in Scylla
“And that is a very,very stupid thing to say” lists the names of every Greek hero ever. Too true.
8:00 Maybe this is my flawed resoning from only reading Percy Jackson, but don't monsters revive in Tartarus or something? Idk
Yeah, that’s only in Percy Jackson. In Greek Mythology, all of the monsters that were slayed were dead forever
Part of what makes Athena wise in God Games is that she uses her weaker arguments before moving on to the strong ones, if she can convince them with a weak argument then her work there is done and she can spawned her energy elsewhere. This is more clear with Hera, where she uses weak arguments before using a stronger one.
Though I’m 100% not saying that your wrong, just that I think Athena using weaker arguments is intentional and very par for the course when it comes to her
she's the epitome of work smarter not harder
8:13 depending on which mystery cult’s variation on the myths is being told, reincarnation is a thing. It’s not necessarily a bad argument to say that they’ll learn to be better next time.
Objection: Sirens now know humans are smart and will not play stupid games to win stupid prices. This will make them more likely to survive in the future even if they manage to kill more sailors.
objection: Traitors opened the bag survived because they were the part of same crew on same ship with Odysseus which poseidon spared. Most likely they know who opened the wind bag too and decided to be quiet about it since ... really? you took the object everyone has an eye on and opened it without prying eyes? They knew and they are partners in crime.
Settlement: He will cause a bloodshed for Love when he is back home, making Aphrodite AND Ares satisfied so despite being on the wrong they dropped their case even if they are still not liking him. He will fight all the suitors by himself and massacare them and that satisfies Ares.
ooh all good points, I'll allow it 👍👍
for the first one nah if anything theyd be more pissed and lash out at humans not everyone is ody plus all the ones who were actually guilty died so i doubt theyd learn plus thats how they eat it dosent make sense that apollo would accept this argument either
second one fully agree
last one is mostly valid but it still dosent really adress aphrodites whole mom argument which was her main point he cant avenge his mom cause she killed herself
@@guyhathansaintil5218 We don't care about if they are angry or not or if more humans gonna die. All he cares about is if there will be more songs in the long run and that convinced him, athena being right or wrong is not objective truth its something you wait and see and also "they were ought to make him worse" is another argument she presents to justify him.
about aphrodite yes that doesn't correct what his mom suffered but thats why its a compramise. They are still "those actions were still shitty and I do not forgive BUT I like what is gonna happen if he gets freed so sure let him go". The point is not "doing right to his mom" point is "he will KILL(ares) for LOVE(Aphrodite) and thats satisfies me"
they are still pissed at him, but willing to let it slide because his freedom benefits them.
@@makaramuss yea but it shouldnt have thats my point nothing athena presented shouldve been new information end of the day the sirens he claims to love are dead when she talks about anotther song she literally CANT be refering to the ones ody meant so youd obviously assume she meant other ones but if thats the case he never shouldve had a problem because hed obviously know they werent all dead (she also dosent even really say thats her argument she moreso implies its the same ones)
so yea i fully understand how thatd appease ares but not aphrodite it would have made sense if her argument included penelope because hed be getting revenge for his lover but it didnt so getting revenge on the suitors (for his mom) means nothing because they had nothig to do with her death and so she shouldnt care wghat happens (im not saying she dosent know/care about the penelope thing my point is that what athena says isnt an actual rebuttal to her argument in the song and so shouldnt convinve her in the contect of the song)
@@guyhathansaintil5218 you don't understanding me, Aphrodite is still pissed about his mom and will stay mad but she lets it slide because he will fight for war
trojan war was literally a war because of her.
Athena gave up convincing her about her mother so she is making an offer to settle.
Abt Apollo, the ''young protection'' thing is like Artemis with young girls but with young boys
7:15 If I remember correctly, what you're looking for is whether or not the music in Epic is diegetic or non-diegetic. Diegetic music is when the characters know that the music exists within the world of the story, or in the case of musical theater, when the characters know that they are singing. On the other hand, non-diegetic music is, you guessed it, when the characters do not know they are singing or are not aware of the music. There can also be semi-diegetic, where the music is known about but only partially (ex. Only some characters know about the singing, the "music" heard by the characters is only a small part of what the audience can hear, etc)
Most of the time in musical theater, the music in non-diegetic, and singing and dancing is just the way the characters express their emotions within the medium. However, this is not always the case. Since you mentioned the sirens and that singing is a huge part of their lore, I'd probably argue that what the sirens are singing is diegetic (or at least semi-diegetic), while most of the other songs are non-diegetic. (When songs are diegetic it also tends to be mentioned in the text itself somewhere, and Apollo specifically references the siren's song in his argument, whereas I don't believe there's mention of being able to hear the singing or music anywhere else in Epic.)
With ALL THIS being said, yeah they probably don't realize it? However it is kind of a funny thought to think that the music was being heard by the characters this whole time and Apollo is just having the time of his life reveling in it. Honestly might've even won Odysseus a few more points with Apollo since he's "a fan of catchy songs"
ooh thank you for the explanation, that does clear things up! and Apollo's probably like "all this singing is for you my man, do whatever you want king" lol
11:58
But the wind bag was opened on HIS ship (cannon by Jay) meaning that there was no way Poseidon killed them because Poseidon left Ody's ship for last.
9:52 GIMME THAT BABY AND ID YEET IT OFF A TOWER what... I DONT LOVE ANYBODY THATS MY POWER
perimedes was definitely favored by hera
7:02 needed a new RUclipsr for my dwindling roster and this made me laugh out loud
I appreciate your content sm
haha I definitely read that at rooster and was like "you showed me to your pet rooster 🥹"
ATHENA’S ARGUMENT AGAINST APHRODITE IRKS ME SM… “its ok a broken heart can mend!!” athena.. she threw herself into the water bc ody didn’t come home 😭😭 and are we just ignoring how achilles hunted down hector after DAYS of grieving bc pat died like.. athena, bb, ur so wrong good lord
aphrodite was the only one with actual beef against ody and was going for the throat, athena was just trying to find some foothold lol. And achilles and pat are THE soulmates for all I'm concerned, aphrodite was on the opposite side of the war but was still like "oh shit those two are too strong, even for me" 😭😭
And Aphrodite knows how it feels, like she had a son that was her soulmate in that war,and she took a wound for him, she know how does a mother feel n@@yourboyneedsahobby
Please do not forget that wound was done to her by diomedes of argos (another hero favored by athena ) the youngest of greek kings fighting in troyan war. Said man aided odyseus in stealing palladion (idol of athena that protected troy ). And when they were going back to the camp Ody atacked him, only to be over powered and slaped with the flat part of the sword
as someone commented aphrodite has no room to talk when it comes to odyseuss's mom dying. was her fault it was because of her war that got odyseuss drafted and was gone for 10 years and ended up in that whole mess
@@estaveler3288We can just blame it on Eris then for starting the whole argument lmao or even yet Hera, and Athena butting into an argument on who's prettier than the Goddess of beauty. Like okay. Y'all just wanted to have beef.
pre video guess as too the loophole and arguments:
Apollo, odyssus tell the siren that he new sirens where about and planned to find the to get information. His actions weren't done out of urgency to protect his crew, he killed the sirens because he could after he got the information.
Hephestus: Athenas argument is well they did it first and now he can see people he cares about. Which doesn't tie into the against which was, he didn't trust his crew and he killed them for his own gain.
You can make the argument his crew was bad to him, but they never killed him and they don't get to see their loved ones because of him so why should he?
Aphroditie: IDK, I mean Odys mum is dead and even if her broken heart heals after death she still went through that pain, though my argument is very vague.
Ares: IDk, I'm kinda a mercy person so I don't have a good reason to support his argument for work harder not smart.
Hera: big ups, if he's never cheated on his wife, big ups to him
I'm glad I came across this. Was very well thought out and entertaining xD
23:55 haha that’s a joke for the live viewers :)
it's like beetlejuice appearing after saying his name 3 times, you say ~the line~ and the internet just cuts you off lol