@@jakedrage2262I love it! It always gives me a reason to go to gun shows to find brass and cartridges. I never find any, but it gives me a reason to look. I have a buddy who shoots .243 and was comparing my WSSM box to his normal .243 and that’s when I learned a new trick. If they realize there’s no difference they understand ballistics. 😂 My grandfather left me the rifle and a few boxes of ammo, costs about $100 in ammo to sight in alone so I’ll probably leave it alone.
I love both my model 70s, I love on them daily. They feed awesome too. If they came out with a compact B-14 in 243 WSSM I’d go right now and do the paper work
Those beat up boxes looked like every box I ever saw on the shelf at fleet farm.....opened by 1000 guys just to look at the cartridge. And never sold a one.
Remington had the 6.8. and they fumbled it. The whole 6.8spc family had a great potential. It had a shorter case than 5.56, with a larger diameter, and could fit in stanag mags with a 2-3 round loss of capacity. I would rather have that case, with an 80gr .223 solid copper in my AR-15 than a 22arc, or creedmoor ar10 for varmint dusting.
The 243 wssm is essentially a 6mm remington and / or a 6mm creedmoor. It does offer around a 10% inceease in velocity over a 243 win. They are a lot like a 6mm dasher. I own 2- 25 wssms, which are my favorite rifles in my safe. That cartridge will hang with a 25/06 in a rifle with a 223 length action. They are lighter and handier than a standard length action rifle. I've shot 3 big bull elk with my 25s and my two biggest trophy mule deer bucks. A whole bunch of antelope, coyotes, and bobcats. It's probably one of the best deer cartridges ever created. I can load 100 grain ballistic tips to nearly 3400 fps. It shoots like a laser beam to 350 yards. The wssms are an excellent AR platform cartridge that will fit in a standard AR15. The brass is as tough as nails as they are thicker than other cartridges. I like to think of the wssms as really handy, smaller, lighter rifles that pack a big punch. Perfect for the mountains.
I have an A-Bolt in 243 WSSM. Yep, years between finding ammo in stock, $50+ a box, paid someone to make cases from WSM. But if you ever shot it, you’d understand why. It’s a laser beam… put a good scope and rings on it and you can’t miss. Mine is the varmint model, so it has a slow twist rate barrel. It shoots 75 grain V-Max better than .25 MOA. I’ve also used it for whitetail, shooting the Winchester 95 grain Ballistic Silvertip, which still shoots about .5 MOA. I found Winchester brass a few years ago and bought 100 pieces. That plus the 200 saved brass, I’ll never worry about finding ammo again. I’ve never experienced any of the negative (physical) claims. It always feeds well, never has had problems feeding. I get great velocity, well beyond 243 Win… That may be the difference between a short sporter profile barrel and my longer varmint barrel. There was a lawsuit involved, that just killed any real prospect of for a future. Without it, I think the WSSMs would have done far better.
I had a 25 wssm and just sold it a few weeks ago. First and foremost, amazing round. It did everything I asked it to from coyote to deer to elk to caribou with 125 grains out to 350 yards. A lot of great hints with impressive results of not a single animal going more than 30 yards after impact. I bought every box I could 5 years ago since it started becoming scarce. I stockpiled 120 rounds. I’m glad I did because for the past 5 years I haven’t seen a box. I reached out and contacted Winchester and they said the product is discontinued. Terrible to do this to the consumer. Long story short, stick with a carriage that’s established to ensure you can enjoy it over your lifetime
If a person can get enough brass you could hand load it to for many years, but if a person don’t hand load yes definitely need to stick with a relatively popular round.
25 WSSM was the best of them all. I bought a bunch of brass for it and don’t even have a rifle. My buddy wild-catted it up to 7mm, shooting 195gr EOL for PRS so ROs are left with no doubt when he connects. Brutal on steel.
This is why I don't trust brand new cartridges. They need to be on the market for at least 20 years and have good cartridge support for me to consider buying one. It's hard enough chasing all my old cartridges that have limited cartridge support. I don't need a brand new one that has non
My buddy has a .223 WSSM in A-bolt. Fed fine, verry accurate and I have been witnessed to many coyotes' deaths. Not that it was a great improvement to what was out there already, but not nearly as bad as you are saying, IMO. I shot the rifle a great deal, on paper, and it truly was as accurate as I could shoot with 24 power at 100 yds. Consistent bug holes!!
One of the board members at the Church I go to has the .223 wssm and said he loves it. Never seen it shot though. The first time he show it to me he says “Do you wanna see something you’ve probably never seen?” Boy was her right. A year later after that I work at a Gun shop in my home town and just a week and a half before this Cartridge Talk was posted I actually had a customer stop in and ask if we had any .223 wssm. All the other guys younger than me, were perplexed by the idea of it and could not imagine the idea of it.
I owned a model 70 featherweight in 25 WSSM. I enjoyed it and it really did a number on whitetail, hogs, coyotes and one black bear. I only sold it because I don’t hand load. The friend I sold it to still has it and absolutely loves it.
so much praise for Hornady.. lol .. Def not on that Band wagon... 6.5prc, 300prc, 7 prc, .... does nothing special over what already exist.lmfao... and they talk about Unnecessary cartridges... I think they in bed with Hornady for sure
I think on this one, you guys need to stick to what you know. Its one thing to look at it on paper and hear bro stories. But those that owned them love them. I owned a 243wssm model 70 for 15 years. Best rifle and cartridge ive ever owned. Never had any feeding issues. Also i live in NZ and ive never had issue getting ammo. Not once in the 15 years. My local shop always had it stocked for me and he never had an issue getting it. One of the reasons for making it short and fat was to get a more consistent/fast burn providing better accuracy. I know mine was sub moa out of the box.
@@Idliketoknow303 was kinda thinking the same. The 223 wssm I have it’s fing FLAT WICKED when hand loaded velocity wise. It’s one of the highest velocity rifles I have. If you’re not into that thing fair enough, but really tailored hand loads it’s one of the fastest rifles I have, and I have several. It was harder to make accurate than most, but I got it figured out
Great episode gentlemen ! Agree 100% ! You know what's NOT a lead balloon ? The .358win !! We are all so excited about the upcoming Cartridge Talk episode on the venerable .358 !!! jmp
The cartridge was a market-failure, but not a performance failure. It was an excellent idea with a mediocre execution, and horrible marketing. *The central point of the marketing **_SHOULD_** have been that it would fit into an AR-15.* People who put it into bolt-guns... go for it, but it's pointless, because it's all of the hassle with a novel-cartridge with none of the ballistic improvement over the original - or at least no practical or functional difference. _It should have been all about the AR-15._ But at the time, the AR-15 - while popular - wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. And now we have the 6 ARC which does what the 243 wssm _SHOULD_ have been. Decent cartridge, terrible marketing, even worse support, and came out at the wrong time.
The 25 WSSM and 30 OSSM take the AR-15 into bolt gun long action performance of the 25-06 and 30-06, as long as you used the Olympic or D-Tech uppers and D-Tech mags. Winchester is really sitting on a gem series of cartridges and rifle sales potential if they revived this with .264”, .277”, and .308” variants. This case absolutely hammers with the larger bore diameters, and has a more appropriate bore ratio to propellant volume and case diameter. A little .270 WSSM would be really sick in the AR-15 type action, but it of course requires a much larger bolt, barrel extension, and magazine solution. .270 WSSM would deliver .270 Winchester performance easily. Much less constrained when evacuating the bore, would generate insane speeds with 120-140gr.
You just made my day! Been hoping for this one since I watched your first lead balloon! The thing that really caught my attention with this cartridge a couple years ago was the fact that it could be made to fit in an AR-15 platform, specifically the 25 cal version of the cartridge. Without that it doesn't hold much for me. I did explore the possibility of rebarrelling a Howa Mini in 25 WSSM, but quickly abandoned the idea. But the idea of having 25-06 performance in a lightweight AR-15 is VERY attractive to me. I don't know of any other cartridge in that platform that can deliver the same external and terminal performance out to 400yds. The only reason I haven't picked one up is because the only maker of a 25WSSM upper sells them for a whopping $1,200, and that combined with the cost of brass made it a hard sell for me. So instead I went and bought a 6mm ARC and never looked back. Well, almost never. I confess I do still think about it from time to time...
My limited experience (223 wssm) : an amish neighbor brought me one right after I started reloading heavily. it was a very light Winchester model 70. He said he "wanted someone else to shoot it" and maybe get some dies to reload the 60-80 empty cases he had for it. I played with it some, even tried a different scope on it, but it was consistently 8"-10" groups at 100 yds. when I took it back and told him my luck, he admitted that it had shot acceptably until he once ripped 4 rounds out in a hurry (mag plus chamber capacity for the rifle). After that he had hardly been able to connect with anything. I never looked at ballistic screaming demons the same again, especially in light barreled hunting rifles.
My first rifle was a Winchester model 70 featherweight chambered in 243 WSSM. Shot the factory ammo through it for a while but it was less than impressive with groups, had a neighbor that reloaded for us come up with some lightweight loads for it shooting 75 grain Hornady V-MAX bullets and wow did it change the way the gun shot. Sub MOA groups at almost 3800fps. Had the gun since 2005 and it’s killed every mule deer I’ve shot, can’t tell you how many coyotes, and just this year my oldest son killed his first antelope with it. Ammo shortage definitely sucks but with several hundred rounds of new brass, the barrel will be toast before I ever run out of loads for it. It’s a unique quirky little gun that’s always been reliable for me and it’ll always stay in my collection 👍🏻
I decided to learn this cartridge. I purchased three Winchester M-70 s. I handloaded for this cartridge and eventually had one fitted with a custom barrel. As a varmint rifle, I had two problems with the cartridge. Unlike my .22-250 Ackleys, I never saw the impact of a bullet from this cartridge. Recoil was too much, just like a .243 Winchester. I like .224 bullets that go zoom for varmints better than the .243 WSSM. Never once with a Model 70, to this day, did I have a magazine feed or extraction issue. Very smooth. As a handloader, I appreciate the M-70 bolt can be disassembled to remove the firing pin, so I can find the lands when seating bullets. You can check your OAL, with live rounds that cannot go bang, because you removed the firing pin. Having handloaded thousands of .243 WSSM rounds, the problem is the brass and the chamber. The Winchester cases have necks that are 0.024 thick. You can't begin to move the shoulder with a Rock Chucker Press. You can split a Redding size die in a Redding Ultramag press. You have to turn the necks before you can size them with a press.
243 has too much recoil ??? Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and grew up shooting 303, 30-06, 7.62x54r but Americans always seem so soft when it comes to recoil.
@@justacentrist4147 He doesn’t mean it’s uncomfortable recoil, he means it’s enough so that you can’t keep the target in the scope, which is important for coyote hunting. Hence the point that it’s easier to hold on target with the 22-250 Ackley than the 243.
@@ChitFromChinola never really had a problem holding a 243 on Target. For repeatable shots. But I guess you could be correct for a smaller frame shooter
I had the 25- WSSM , Boy did it take down game like a bolt of lightning. Great round, wish brass was still here. Back to my 7mm-08 I guess so I'm happy.
25 WSSM is like 25-06 in a short little bottle with far superior ES and SDs, with a propellant column that actually gets converted and doesn’t spit powder out of the muzzle like all the -06s and -08s. 87-90gr at 3600fps from a 22” barrel, tight SDs. Actually beats the 25-06 by 200fps with 87-90gr from a shorter barrel: 87/90gr 25 WSSM 22” barrel: 3600fps with 2 powders, 3550 with many other powders 25-06 24” barrel: 3400fps with 3 powders, 3300fps with 5 powders Both are lightning bolts on animals of all types. The 25 WSSM is an excellent 22” compact, lightweight option for a mountain rifle for mulies, bear, and elk for 300-350yd no-hold shots.
The 223 WSSM in particular had a bad rep as a barrel melter. I remember in an older edition of the usually mild mannered Hornady manual, the write up of that cartridge ended with an unusually blunt “This round is HARD on barrels.”
You got close to the reason the WSSM cartridges existed. Short light weight rifles that handle so much better than a longer action and longer barrel to get similar performance. My 243 WSSM gets 3250 fps with a 100 gr bullet in a 22 inch barrel but only with RL 26. Luckily I have plenty of this powder.
@mryang3644 Most of the wildcatters use the 270 wsm cartridge case. Easier to neck down. Only issue is that when loading up to max pressure it spikes quickly.
I have a 25 wssm. Its a great rifle. No feeding issues and very accurate. What drove the wssm to being obsolete where two things. Supposedly the 223 and the 243 where good for throat erosion and as for the 25 it seems not to be an issue. Another issue with the wssm was a lawsuit between Jamison v. Olin Corporation-Winchester Division. I think that the wssm could be better now with modern bullets. The 6.8 Western is a close representative to what the wssm could be.
The died because of the timing of the release. All of the Wssm cartridges scream to be in an AR-15. Mine are on Olympic arms UMAR lowers, my friends and on standard lowers. On an AR there’s no feeding issues. The case is the same length as the Grendel, ARC, and the BR. The capacity is the same as the creedmoor or extremely close. So you have a creedmoor velocity (or more since the Wssm is a half inch shorter) in an ARC action length. The only thing you have to do to put a WSSM in an AR-15 is change the barrel, bolt, and magazine just like an ARC. So a good project for you to do is to take a 300 OSSM (30-25 WSSM) and do the same thing as you did for the 300 super WSM. And then you should be able to run it in a regular WSM action.
You need a different upper receiver too due to the diameter of the bolt and barrel extension. Olympic Arms did it, then D-Tech. It kinda begs for a bit longer action if you want to shoot the longer bullets in 25 cal, but with 75-90gr, it beats the 25-06. Awesome little cartridge. I would really like to see a 270 WSSM AR-15 hunter. That would be an absolute pole-ax. I have 6mm, 6.5 Grendel, 25 WSSM all lined up next to each other with a 131gr ACE loaded in the 25 WSSM and it looks totally normal, like a natural line-up of cartridges. The WSSMs really burn the propellant better than most other cartridges, so SDs are extremely tight.
The barrel extension that I have slides right into the Gibbz upper that I am going to use in the build. I think that you are thinking about the 30 Remington AR. I have a 30 Remington AR and wish it was a OSSM. But the 30 Remington AR upper and ammunition was cheap enough when I got it
@@shawnrasmussen9994 WSSM is a larger case diameter than 30 RAR, and both require a different upper. There is hardly any chamber wall thickness left if you stick with a standard AR-15 barrel tennon and extension. Look on D-Tech’s site and you’ll see the photos of how they do it. Ejection port is enlarged significantly as well to clear that fat case. D-Tech started out using Olympic’s special AR-15 uppers, which had enraged barrel extension tunnels, large extensions, and the large bolts. Then D-Tech went to their own billet upper that has thicker walls all around to support the barrel mate, with the larger extension. I like the 30 RAR as well. Remington used a similar approach with an enlarged extension, enlarged tunnel in the upper, large bolt, and dog leg extractor.
I was working at a gunshop when they came out. The biggest issue was every WSSM we sold we'd get back because they wouldn't feed. Some people didn't want to send them back for a couple months for warranty, so we'd work on it. Never got one to feed with more than 2 in the mag. Might have been able to manage 3 if we kept working on it, but people didn't want to spend another hour or two of shop time for one more round.
The 243 wssm handily compares to the 22 creedmoore I have been praying that Winchester re-releases this cartridge with a small amount of fine tuning I feel they would have the best competitor to the 22 creedmoore especially if they kept them low cost, it’s faster than the creedmoore out to 100-150 yards and has more energy at 100 past that it still keeps up really nicely, I would love to see the renaissance of this cartridge and the whole wssm model everyone who’s hunted with them loves the performance, the only thing I can see is people hate the feeding issue but with todays advancements and a little fine tuning this cartridge could get the love and appreciation it deserves, this cartridge is absolutely devastating on deer and is tremendous for predator hunting, the rifles were nice and slender and compact, good for mountain hunting and youth/woman, I don’t really understand the hate for them I have really considered doing a full custom build of one and if anyone has suggestions on how to do that let me know! 😁
I bought the 25 wssm in the stainless featherweight when Winchester was "closing". Remember that! Anyways, great little rifle. Just short of the 25-06 in velocities with same bullet weights. About ten years ago the brass was starting to dry up I bought a bunch of it. Only problem was it wasn't annealed hardly at all. Cracking at the shoulder/neck at one firing. Talked to Winchester/Olin rep. She knew that there was a issue with that lot and wanted some of the brass back before refunding me. Just needed annealing properly and it lasted longer than one firing. It is a great cartridge.
I get 3900 FPS with my 223 WSSM 60 grain Barnes Measured with my Garmin, but the Remington 700 Factory Rifle is in 1/10 Twist. I feel it would be Awesome in 1/7 twist . Shoots 1/2 in 100 Yards.
This cartridge is far from a lead ballon. Hand load it and you can have a flat-shooting, deer killing machine on your hands. My son used his Model 70 in 243 WSSM to take his first two deer. This is an under appreciated cartridge.
Another informative video thanks for the information you guys have.this one seems to be a bigger lead balloon than the 280 Remington or the 338 Federal in my opinion
I had almost all but forgotten the wssm line. And honestly thr wsm and rsum line really was only saved by the wildcaters, f, and benchrest guys to where it's wild watching the 300 wsm actually start making a comeback
When i bought my A Bolt 25 wssm back in 2005 a box of shells was 21.99 a box. I currently have 5 boxes of Winchester 120 graniers and 5 boxes of HSM 117 grainers. They cost around $50 a box. My brother has 13 boxes of Winchester 95 grainers for his 243 wssm. And further more these calibers aren't any more ludicrous as the 6 arc, 6 creedmore, 6 dasher, and others. But haters gonna hate. Both of these guns shoot MOA groups and we've never had any feeding issues. The only downfall to these were only Winchester and Browning were the only 2 manufacturers that built them. There was a couple of custom gun builders that built them for just a little while. If more brands chambered rifles in these calibers they'd be on the shelves in gun stores the same as the 243 win and the 2506.
During the lock down when all the TP disappeared i went everywhere in dfw looking for regular 243 ammo for my wifes hunting rifle. Scheels had tge 243 wssm on the shelf in various loadings. Nobody had any common stuff though. I ended up buying brass and bullets and hand loading a hunting load for the wife.
I have a Win M70 custom built on a 26” barrel, with a 1:14 twist. For light bullets going lightning fast. I did have some feeding issues. However, the gun could shoot 2.25” groups at 500 yards. You could watch the woodchucks come apart in the scope. Heavy gun with a Holland muzzle break was awesome for watching impacts. Mostly I shoot 55 gr Nosler BT, but I’ve loaded 70 gr Sierra BlitzKings too. I also have a regular M70 243 Win. I have very obvious increases in accuracy and performance over the original. But, it’s because of how I built it. People do Ackley Improved cases all the time for 100-150 fps increase. So probably not correct to say it’s not enough of a performance gain. You gain accuracy too. All the bench rest guys know “short and fat is where it’s at!”
I think they’re being a little unfair with this, for the time the 243 WSSM was a pretty nice step up, and it was a really good deer cartridge, if you look at the numbers the 243 WSSM compares really well to the new 22 creedmoore and actually beats it to around the 100-150 yard mark, they should really re-release it as a cheaper competitor to the 22 creedmoore the ballistics are very good for it and they already had a semi-good platform that could be even more refined with new technologies
It would probably need a chamber respec for longer bullets. Funny thing is the 223 wssm is basically identical to the 22 creedmore in terms of lighter bullets. So giving that a longer bullet would give you creedmore power with arc length cases. Definitely not getting re released anytime soon so it’s staying as a reloader’s cartridge. Which I wouldn’t even mind except there’s no factory brass anywhere.
We have a 223wssm in a abolt. It is actually a really good little rifle. Haven’t had a lot of feeding issues and very accurate. Also very very fast as stated in the show 55gr vmax above 4K if you load it. I would say it’s a good unit.
That's one that definitely needs to see the light of day. I really like that 400 legend case. Who wouldn't want a 6 arc with more case capacity that allows use of a stronger bolt? Everybody got hung up trying to push the longest for caliber bullets out of the ar as possible, making the cases shorter and shorter to do so, and loosing the powder capacity necessary to make those super heavy bullets effective. The argument "well those super heavy high bc bullets overtake the lighter ones at 900 yards" doesn't really matter when nobody is shooting anything besides plinking at dirt banks or gongs at 900 yards with those rounds in an ar. In reality, most people wind up using much lighter bullets in those cartridges to get some speed and better mid range trajectory back, but they still don't have the powder capacity they could have had with a longer case that was made for those mid weight range bullets. I hope more people find out about the 6 max and it becomes popular. It would make a great reasonable distance hunting round. Necked down to .22, it would make an awesome varmint cartridge for up to about 80 grain bullets.
I have one of these in a browning stainless stalker. It's been a great rifle for me and an absolute tack driver. I just this year retired it for the far more available 6.5 cm. When I was researching the .243 wssm there was a lot of chatter about it being used in the updated S.A.W. that clearly didn't happen and the round went into obscurity.
I had a model 70 in 243 WSSM and I loved it. I thought it was the ideal deer rifle in my area. Wish I hadn’t sold it because I like being out of the loop on using what everyone else uses
I wanna hear your guys opinion on what can be done to advance our external and terminal ballistic abilities at large. Get some guys from all facets of the game on a panel to weigh in, a barrel manufacturer, a ballistician, a bullet manufacturer, a silencer manufacturer, powder manufacturer, hit up the guys from alpha munitions to talk about brass, etc. I have a feeling some serious innovation could come from a public forum of experts sharing ideas with each other.
Dad had one. was pleasant to shoot and very accurate. My only complaint was the BOSS system would start to unscrew itself after a few rounds. Didn't matter how hard I tightened it.
Mostly it was no availability of good quality cases. Both the 7mm wsm and 300 wsm was being used in long range shooting. Then they could not get hit cades. Alpha just started offering 300 wsm cases.
I think a 10 minute or podcast about some Thompson center rifles would do a lot of good especially with Greg Ritz acquiring the business and hopefully bringing product to the market next year
I have 2, one Winchester in Polymer and one in laminate wood. Mock it is you like but it’s flat, hot and incredibly accurate, and more efficient in powder performance. And reloaded, I can burn it hot! So, like… whatever you guys lol
I can speak on the 223WSSM, had a model 70 Coyote. Nice stock and action to that gun but it was terrible in grouping. Found out the barrels were chrome lined and a poor job of it. The chrome was reported to flake off and contributed to the inaccuracy plus it would explode most hollow points because of the speed, I clocked 4300fps , bolt lift would be very stiff so I went down loading it to around 3600-3800 but still didn’t help with accuracy. Was glad to get rid of it but was hoping for succesd
Man! Makes me wish I would have bought the 7 boxes I saw on clearance at a Walmart several years ago for dirt cheap. If I recall, they were like $16.97 for each 20 round box!!! Lesson learned!!!!
If I remember correctly the early rifles didn’t feed well. Browning supposedly fixed the problem. The 25 WSSM was the star. It’s a shame that cartridge didn’t survive either.
I nominate the .30 Super Carry as the biggest lead balloon of all time. The .25 WSSM in a Browning Micro Medallion made for a easy to carry package that had the ability to take deer and similar built game.
I got curious while watching, and started looking for ammo. I found 2 places selling ammo for the 243 WSSM, both with single loading offerings for $5.00 and $5.83 per round. Never thought I’d find something that makes my 35 Whelen look plentiful and affordable by comparison.
.243 WSSM was one that I saw when I was just really starting to become interested in firearms and hunting. I looked into it and I was like...this offers next to nothing more over a standard action cartidge. If I wanted a short magnum, I'd go for the .300 WSM. Wonder what it would take to build a .300 WSM in a AR10? Now that would be a nice rifle.
I believe you missed a huge reason for failure is of copyright/patent issues. And let's be honest when was the last time Winchester was really successful at releasing a cartridge?? The 50s?
We had a pack of 14 coyotee's that were taking down deer every day and some were stocking and luring our golden retriever so i figured it was time to a more powerful rifle that would do the job. The fellow at our local Wholesale Sports (no longer in business) brought down a Winchester 243WSSM saying this cartridge is extremely flat shooting and would be great for coyotee's. I didnt know ammo would soon be very challenging to get but purchased this beautiful model 70 feather weight and a Tasco Titan 1.5 - 6 power scope (which i didn't know at the time would make this rifle far under scoped) and took it home with 4 boxes of Winchester .55 gr balistic silver tip ammo and 1 box of 95gr balostic silver tip ammo. I had only previously owned .22 open site rifles and a 12ga for upland bird game so was a green horn when it came to higher powered game rifles and scopes but this 243WSSM was my first! When i found out ammo was no longer being made I bought it up ever time i saw it and still do to this day! What my experience has been with this model 70 not always feeding the 243WSSM has been the casing not rising quite high ebough for the bolt to be able to catch and push it. I stretched the floor plate spring slightly and this helped with the issue. What i find amazing about the .55 gr are that even with this relatively low power scope after zero'ing at 200yrds (ya like i said a green horn at the time) it would allow me to consistantly hit targets at 100 and even 300 yrds with no hold over. i would just aim at center of my 8" plate and consistantly be able to hit it which at the time was good enough for me. What amazes me is that at 200 yrds the little .55 gr melts a pocket in the 8" mild steel plate that measures 5/8" across and 5/8" deep! at 300 yrds the pocket is 5/8" diameter but only 3/8" deep. So it packs a hell of a punch that doesn't look a whole lot different than the pocket my .308 leaves on the same piece of plate using a 165gr! I have since re loded more .55 gr but as well some 100gr but i feel the .55'rs are where this cartridge truly excels! 4200 ft/sec in the featerlight model 70 is amazing
I have owned all the wssm & wsm cartridges. They are all extremely accurate and we reached 4,180 out the muzzle with the 223 wssm. The point of these cartridges was accuracy and short actions and they accomplished that Wel. Never had any feed problems out of any of the rather browning or Winchester platforms. These guys are very mis informed on the cartridges. There is plenty of brass out there for us hand loaders to continue enjoying these cartridges.
Had a friend buy me a box of .243 on the way to deer camp around 2006... He accidently bought me a box of .243 WSSM... I was very confused when I opened it to go hunting. I still have that box of ammo and no rifle for it, occasionally I will run into it while going through my ammo collection. I never throw it away cause it always makes me giggle when I open it up and look at that squatty little cartridge LOL
The Model 70s feed great not sure on the brownings. 150ft a second faster is a significant gain over the standard 243 with the factory options you brought up. Puts it right between 240 Weatherby and 243 winchester. May not have been needed but cool none the less. You guys didn't cover anything with the lawsuit against Winchester or them going under as contributing to the super shorts demise either.
One of the cool variants in the early days was a 358 to meet Indianas original 1.625” coal limit later in the years Indiana lifted the limit to 1.8” where it stands today for public land where the 308 and wsm based cartridges started to shine. Lot of old tc encores floating around in those wildcat calibers Beats the heck out of a 357 mag or 44
Me holding and slowely petting my A bolt 243 WSSM- “ They don’t know what they’re talking about.”
It was the long range coyote gun before rangefinders
@@jakedrage2262I love it! It always gives me a reason to go to gun shows to find brass and cartridges. I never find any, but it gives me a reason to look.
I have a buddy who shoots .243 and was comparing my WSSM box to his normal .243 and that’s when I learned a new trick. If they realize there’s no difference they understand ballistics. 😂 My grandfather left me the rifle and a few boxes of ammo, costs about $100 in ammo to sight in alone so I’ll probably leave it alone.
I love both my model 70s, I love on them daily. They feed awesome too. If they came out with a compact B-14 in 243 WSSM I’d go right now and do the paper work
It's a turd that didn't need to be invented.
@@rowdysincoherentrambling1426I found a ton of super short and short mag brass years ago. I took it all to the scrap yard where it belongs.😂
Everyone that has ever owned a 243 wssm absolutely loves it. I was laughing soo hard. "It looks funny" and "I heard they dont feed great."
Those beat up boxes looked like every box I ever saw on the shelf at fleet farm.....opened by 1000 guys just to look at the cartridge. And never sold a one.
"This is one of the most serious mistakes we have made." -Winchester
"Hold my EtronX." -Remington
Remington 2020 was also a terrible idea.
Wow, I forgot about the Etron 😂
I own a 243wssm and an EtronX
Remington had the 6.8. and they fumbled it. The whole 6.8spc family had a great potential. It had a shorter case than 5.56, with a larger diameter, and could fit in stanag mags with a 2-3 round loss of capacity. I would rather have that case, with an 80gr .223 solid copper in my AR-15 than a 22arc, or creedmoor ar10 for varmint dusting.
Creedmore... "Hold my beer."
Hi, this is Bill. I run HillBillyBrass. I reform brass for .243 WSSM. I enjoyed this discussion and would love to talk sometime.
The 243 wssm is essentially a 6mm remington and / or a 6mm creedmoor. It does offer around a 10% inceease in velocity over a 243 win. They are a lot like a 6mm dasher. I own 2- 25 wssms, which are my favorite rifles in my safe. That cartridge will hang with a 25/06 in a rifle with a 223 length action. They are lighter and handier than a standard length action rifle. I've shot 3 big bull elk with my 25s and my two biggest trophy mule deer bucks. A whole bunch of antelope, coyotes, and bobcats. It's probably one of the best deer cartridges ever created. I can load 100 grain ballistic tips to nearly 3400 fps. It shoots like a laser beam to 350 yards. The wssms are an excellent AR platform cartridge that will fit in a standard AR15. The brass is as tough as nails as they are thicker than other cartridges. I like to think of the wssms as really handy, smaller, lighter rifles that pack a big punch. Perfect for the mountains.
I have an idea for a lead balloon episode. The 21 sharp rimfire
Technically a copper balloon
It hasn’t even finished dropping out of the sky yet but I agree with you
I got the. 25 WSSM and my brother has the .243 WSSM. Sweet shooting guns.
I have an A-Bolt in 243 WSSM. Yep, years between finding ammo in stock, $50+ a box, paid someone to make cases from WSM. But if you ever shot it, you’d understand why. It’s a laser beam… put a good scope and rings on it and you can’t miss. Mine is the varmint model, so it has a slow twist rate barrel. It shoots 75 grain V-Max better than .25 MOA. I’ve also used it for whitetail, shooting the Winchester 95 grain Ballistic Silvertip, which still shoots about .5 MOA. I found Winchester brass a few years ago and bought 100 pieces. That plus the 200 saved brass, I’ll never worry about finding ammo again. I’ve never experienced any of the negative (physical) claims. It always feeds well, never has had problems feeding. I get great velocity, well beyond 243 Win… That may be the difference between a short sporter profile barrel and my longer varmint barrel.
There was a lawsuit involved, that just killed any real prospect of for a future. Without it, I think the WSSMs would have done far better.
I had a 25 wssm and just sold it a few weeks ago. First and foremost, amazing round. It did everything I asked it to from coyote to deer to elk to caribou with 125 grains out to 350 yards. A lot of great hints with impressive results of not a single animal going more than 30 yards after impact. I bought every box I could 5 years ago since it started becoming scarce. I stockpiled 120 rounds. I’m glad I did because for the past 5 years I haven’t seen a box. I reached out and contacted Winchester and they said the product is discontinued. Terrible to do this to the consumer. Long story short, stick with a carriage that’s established to ensure you can enjoy it over your lifetime
Very good advise.
If a person can get enough brass you could hand load it to for many years, but if a person don’t hand load yes definitely need to stick with a relatively popular round.
25 WSSM was the best of them all. I bought a bunch of brass for it and don’t even have a rifle. My buddy wild-catted it up to 7mm, shooting 195gr EOL for PRS so ROs are left with no doubt when he connects. Brutal on steel.
This is why I don't trust brand new cartridges. They need to be on the market for at least 20 years and have good cartridge support for me to consider buying one. It's hard enough chasing all my old cartridges that have limited cartridge support. I don't need a brand new one that has non
The WSSM’s are definitely a handloaders deal. Someone had to be making brass as a solid amount of 358WSSM’s were made in Indiana.
The WSSM's were great, but they were killed by a lawsuit.
???
I love my 243 wssm.
I wanna see a cartridge talk on the lazeroni family of cartridges!
I 2nd this !!!
What rounds come from that family?
Warbird is the one we want
Yes, that's a fragging rabbit hole I never understood...
My buddy has a .223 WSSM in A-bolt. Fed fine, verry accurate and I have been witnessed to many coyotes' deaths. Not that it was a great improvement to what was out there already, but not nearly as bad as you are saying, IMO. I shot the rifle a great deal, on paper, and it truly was as accurate as I could shoot with 24 power at 100 yds. Consistent bug holes!!
One of the board members at the Church I go to has the .223 wssm and said he loves it. Never seen it shot though. The first time he show it to me he says “Do you wanna see something you’ve probably never seen?”
Boy was her right.
A year later after that I work at a Gun shop in my home town and just a week and a half before this Cartridge Talk was posted I actually had a customer stop in and ask if we had any
.223 wssm. All the other guys younger than me, were perplexed by the idea of it and could not imagine the idea of it.
I owned a model 70 featherweight in 25 WSSM. I enjoyed it and it really did a number on whitetail, hogs, coyotes and one black bear. I only sold it because I don’t hand load. The friend I sold it to still has it and absolutely loves it.
depends on the ability and desire to reloading and life of barrel.The claimed issues with feeding reliability would be a major downside.
@ I can’t remember any feeding issues with it. However, I probably only ran 8-10 boxes of ammo through it.
If Hornady released this today people would be all over it
Yep the spin doctors & influencers would be praising it non stop.
so much praise for Hornady.. lol .. Def not on that Band wagon... 6.5prc, 300prc, 7 prc, .... does nothing special over what already exist.lmfao... and they talk about Unnecessary cartridges... I think they in bed with Hornady for sure
Yep. Rename it 24 Creedmoor or 24 PRC and people will fall all over themselves to buy it.
@@1991GreenThey make a 6mm prc and a 6mm creedmore
Hornady blows
Lead Balloons are some of the best cartridge talks. We need a podcast about the encore rifles!!
I brought a Winchester coyote in 243 WSSM years ago. It's an absolute screaming round, loved it.
I think on this one, you guys need to stick to what you know. Its one thing to look at it on paper and hear bro stories. But those that owned them love them. I owned a 243wssm model 70 for 15 years. Best rifle and cartridge ive ever owned. Never had any feeding issues. Also i live in NZ and ive never had issue getting ammo. Not once in the 15 years. My local shop always had it stocked for me and he never had an issue getting it. One of the reasons for making it short and fat was to get a more consistent/fast burn providing better accuracy. I know mine was sub moa out of the box.
@@Idliketoknow303 was kinda thinking the same. The 223 wssm I have it’s fing FLAT WICKED when hand loaded velocity wise. It’s one of the highest velocity rifles I have. If you’re not into that thing fair enough, but really tailored hand loads it’s one of the fastest rifles I have, and I have several. It was harder to make accurate than most, but I got it figured out
Great episode gentlemen ! Agree 100% !
You know what's NOT a lead balloon ? The .358win !!
We are all so excited about the upcoming Cartridge Talk episode
on the venerable .358 !!!
jmp
The cartridge was a market-failure, but not a performance failure. It was an excellent idea with a mediocre execution, and horrible marketing. *The central point of the marketing **_SHOULD_** have been that it would fit into an AR-15.* People who put it into bolt-guns... go for it, but it's pointless, because it's all of the hassle with a novel-cartridge with none of the ballistic improvement over the original - or at least no practical or functional difference.
_It should have been all about the AR-15._ But at the time, the AR-15 - while popular - wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. And now we have the 6 ARC which does what the 243 wssm _SHOULD_ have been.
Decent cartridge, terrible marketing, even worse support, and came out at the wrong time.
The 25 WSSM and 30 OSSM take the AR-15 into bolt gun long action performance of the 25-06 and 30-06, as long as you used the Olympic or D-Tech uppers and D-Tech mags. Winchester is really sitting on a gem series of cartridges and rifle sales potential if they revived this with .264”, .277”, and .308” variants. This case absolutely hammers with the larger bore diameters, and has a more appropriate bore ratio to propellant volume and case diameter.
A little .270 WSSM would be really sick in the AR-15 type action, but it of course requires a much larger bolt, barrel extension, and magazine solution. .270 WSSM would deliver .270 Winchester performance easily. Much less constrained when evacuating the bore, would generate insane speeds with 120-140gr.
6.8 Western should have been designed for AR-10s as well. Winchester really missing the boat by ignoring autoloaders
You just made my day! Been hoping for this one since I watched your first lead balloon!
The thing that really caught my attention with this cartridge a couple years ago was the fact that it could be made to fit in an AR-15 platform, specifically the 25 cal version of the cartridge. Without that it doesn't hold much for me. I did explore the possibility of rebarrelling a Howa Mini in 25 WSSM, but quickly abandoned the idea. But the idea of having 25-06 performance in a lightweight AR-15 is VERY attractive to me. I don't know of any other cartridge in that platform that can deliver the same external and terminal performance out to 400yds. The only reason I haven't picked one up is because the only maker of a 25WSSM upper sells them for a whopping $1,200, and that combined with the cost of brass made it a hard sell for me. So instead I went and bought a 6mm ARC and never looked back. Well, almost never. I confess I do still think about it from time to time...
The 223 wssm was an awesome cartridge imo. The thing was extremely accurate and extremely flat.
My limited experience (223 wssm) : an amish neighbor brought me one right after I started reloading heavily. it was a very light Winchester model 70. He said he "wanted someone else to shoot it" and maybe get some dies to reload the 60-80 empty cases he had for it. I played with it some, even tried a different scope on it, but it was consistently 8"-10" groups at 100 yds. when I took it back and told him my luck, he admitted that it had shot acceptably until he once ripped 4 rounds out in a hurry (mag plus chamber capacity for the rifle). After that he had hardly been able to connect with anything. I never looked at ballistic screaming demons the same again, especially in light barreled hunting rifles.
243 Catbird really pushes the .243 in every weight category. Maybe it’s time for the Manufactures to try out this cartridge???
Lead balloon!
6mm-06
It's on my list for a custom rifle.
Love the cartridge talks gentlemen
Can we please get a cartridge talk on 358 Winchester or possibly a lead balloon?
I remember seeing WSSM brass in shops and thinking, well that's interesting. Then instantly saying no way.
My first rifle was a Winchester model 70 featherweight chambered in 243 WSSM. Shot the factory ammo through it for a while but it was less than impressive with groups, had a neighbor that reloaded for us come up with some lightweight loads for it shooting 75 grain Hornady V-MAX bullets and wow did it change the way the gun shot. Sub MOA groups at almost 3800fps. Had the gun since 2005 and it’s killed every mule deer I’ve shot, can’t tell you how many coyotes, and just this year my oldest son killed his first antelope with it. Ammo shortage definitely sucks but with several hundred rounds of new brass, the barrel will be toast before I ever run out of loads for it. It’s a unique quirky little gun that’s always been reliable for me and it’ll always stay in my collection 👍🏻
I decided to learn this cartridge. I purchased three Winchester M-70 s. I handloaded for this cartridge and eventually had one fitted with a custom barrel. As a varmint rifle, I had two problems with the cartridge. Unlike my .22-250 Ackleys, I never saw the impact of a bullet from this cartridge. Recoil was too much, just like a .243 Winchester. I like .224 bullets that go zoom for varmints better than the .243 WSSM.
Never once with a Model 70, to this day, did I have a magazine feed or extraction issue. Very smooth. As a handloader, I appreciate the M-70 bolt can be disassembled to remove the firing pin, so I can find the lands when seating bullets. You can check your OAL, with live rounds that cannot go bang, because you removed the firing pin.
Having handloaded thousands of .243 WSSM rounds, the problem is the brass and the chamber. The Winchester cases have necks that are 0.024 thick. You can't begin to move the shoulder with a Rock Chucker Press. You can split a Redding size die in a Redding Ultramag press. You have to turn the necks before you can size them with a press.
243 has too much recoil ??? Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and grew up shooting 303, 30-06, 7.62x54r but Americans always seem so soft when it comes to recoil.
@@justacentrist4147
He doesn’t mean it’s uncomfortable recoil, he means it’s enough so that you can’t keep the target in the scope, which is important for coyote hunting. Hence the point that it’s easier to hold on target with the 22-250 Ackley than the 243.
@@ChitFromChinola never really had a problem holding a 243 on Target. For repeatable shots. But I guess you could be correct for a smaller frame shooter
@@justacentrist4147
It’s easier to hold a 22-250 on target than a 243. That’s what he is saying.
@@ChitFromChinolacan't explain anything to a Canadian who probably doesn't own any guns 😂
The cartridge I almost built an ar in before I realized it was a horrible idea.
I had the 25- WSSM , Boy did it take down game like a bolt of lightning. Great round, wish brass was still here. Back to my 7mm-08 I guess so I'm happy.
25 WSSM is like 25-06 in a short little bottle with far superior ES and SDs, with a propellant column that actually gets converted and doesn’t spit powder out of the muzzle like all the -06s and -08s. 87-90gr at 3600fps from a 22” barrel, tight SDs. Actually beats the 25-06 by 200fps with 87-90gr from a shorter barrel:
87/90gr
25 WSSM 22” barrel: 3600fps with 2 powders, 3550 with many other powders
25-06 24” barrel: 3400fps with 3 powders, 3300fps with 5 powders
Both are lightning bolts on animals of all types. The 25 WSSM is an excellent 22” compact, lightweight option for a mountain rifle for mulies, bear, and elk for 300-350yd no-hold shots.
The 223 WSSM in particular had a bad rep as a barrel melter. I remember in an older edition of the usually mild mannered Hornady manual, the write up of that cartridge ended with an unusually blunt “This round is HARD on barrels.”
Should do talks on the other wssm cartridges
You got close to the reason the WSSM cartridges existed. Short light weight rifles that handle so much better than a longer action and longer barrel to get similar performance. My 243 WSSM gets 3250 fps with a 100 gr bullet in a 22 inch barrel but only with RL 26. Luckily I have plenty of this powder.
I’ve got a custom throated 25 wssm seated to 2.80 pushing 134 Eldm at 2750. It’s a sweet little round
I was just thinking about such a cartridge, in light of the recent video on the .300 super WSM.
25/300wsm would be Screamin
@mryang3644
Most of the wildcatters use the 270 wsm cartridge case. Easier to neck down.
Only issue is that when loading up to max pressure it spikes quickly.
They made the 30 cosmic Or cosmo from the 25 wssm. Loaded in AR15.
I have a 25 wssm. Its a great rifle. No feeding issues and very accurate. What drove the wssm to being obsolete where two things. Supposedly the 223 and the 243 where good for throat erosion and as for the 25 it seems not to be an issue. Another issue with the wssm was a lawsuit between Jamison v. Olin Corporation-Winchester Division. I think that the wssm could be better now with modern bullets. The 6.8 Western is a close representative to what the wssm could be.
dedicated technologies in bemidji Minnesota makes an AR15 that shoots the WSSM cartridges.
Must be the one O’Neill boys showed…24” lightingbolt straight
Jard makes one also.
The died because of the timing of the release.
All of the Wssm cartridges scream to be in an AR-15.
Mine are on Olympic arms UMAR lowers, my friends and on standard lowers. On an AR there’s no feeding issues.
The case is the same length as the Grendel, ARC, and the BR.
The capacity is the same as the creedmoor or extremely close.
So you have a creedmoor velocity (or more since the Wssm is a half inch shorter) in an ARC action length.
The only thing you have to do to put a WSSM in an AR-15 is change the barrel, bolt, and magazine just like an ARC.
So a good project for you to do is to take a 300 OSSM (30-25 WSSM) and do the same thing as you did for the 300 super WSM.
And then you should be able to run it in a regular WSM action.
You need a different upper receiver too due to the diameter of the bolt and barrel extension. Olympic Arms did it, then D-Tech. It kinda begs for a bit longer action if you want to shoot the longer bullets in 25 cal, but with 75-90gr, it beats the 25-06. Awesome little cartridge. I would really like to see a 270 WSSM AR-15 hunter. That would be an absolute pole-ax. I have 6mm, 6.5 Grendel, 25 WSSM all lined up next to each other with a 131gr ACE loaded in the 25 WSSM and it looks totally normal, like a natural line-up of cartridges. The WSSMs really burn the propellant better than most other cartridges, so SDs are extremely tight.
A freind had one in 30 wssm, cosmo or cosmic ?, it was a great AR platform and really performed. Was made right down the road at Rainer arms.
@eddieb4227 Olympic Arms 300 OSSM. Advertised as 30-06 performance from an AR-15.
The barrel extension that I have slides right into the Gibbz upper that I am going to use in the build.
I think that you are thinking about the 30 Remington AR. I have a 30 Remington AR and wish it was a OSSM. But the 30 Remington AR upper and ammunition was cheap enough when I got it
@@shawnrasmussen9994 WSSM is a larger case diameter than 30 RAR, and both require a different upper. There is hardly any chamber wall thickness left if you stick with a standard AR-15 barrel tennon and extension. Look on D-Tech’s site and you’ll see the photos of how they do it. Ejection port is enlarged significantly as well to clear that fat case.
D-Tech started out using Olympic’s special AR-15 uppers, which had enraged barrel extension tunnels, large extensions, and the large bolts. Then D-Tech went to their own billet upper that has thicker walls all around to support the barrel mate, with the larger extension.
I like the 30 RAR as well. Remington used a similar approach with an enlarged extension, enlarged tunnel in the upper, large bolt, and dog leg extractor.
I was working at a gunshop when they came out. The biggest issue was every WSSM we sold we'd get back because they wouldn't feed. Some people didn't want to send them back for a couple months for warranty, so we'd work on it. Never got one to feed with more than 2 in the mag. Might have been able to manage 3 if we kept working on it, but people didn't want to spend another hour or two of shop time for one more round.
I
@hunt1198 ?
I have a AR 15 in 243wssm love it
That sounds like a great little combination. I've always thought about the 7mm08 in a AR platform.
Only one I ever knew built was a special by Olympic Arms…
Only one I ever knew built was a special by Olympic Arms…
@harteverett used there bolt and barrel extension tuns the mag into a single stack
@@harteverett D-Tech and JARD Inc. make them
The 243 wssm handily compares to the 22 creedmoore I have been praying that Winchester re-releases this cartridge with a small amount of fine tuning I feel they would have the best competitor to the 22 creedmoore especially if they kept them low cost, it’s faster than the creedmoore out to 100-150 yards and has more energy at 100 past that it still keeps up really nicely, I would love to see the renaissance of this cartridge and the whole wssm model everyone who’s hunted with them loves the performance, the only thing I can see is people hate the feeding issue but with todays advancements and a little fine tuning this cartridge could get the love and appreciation it deserves, this cartridge is absolutely devastating on deer and is tremendous for predator hunting, the rifles were nice and slender and compact, good for mountain hunting and youth/woman, I don’t really understand the hate for them I have really considered doing a full custom build of one and if anyone has suggestions on how to do that let me know! 😁
I bought the 25 wssm in the stainless featherweight when Winchester was "closing". Remember that! Anyways, great little rifle. Just short of the 25-06 in velocities with same bullet weights. About ten years ago the brass was starting to dry up I bought a bunch of it. Only problem was it wasn't annealed hardly at all. Cracking at the shoulder/neck at one firing. Talked to Winchester/Olin rep. She knew that there was a issue with that lot and wanted some of the brass back before refunding me. Just needed annealing properly and it lasted longer than one firing. It is a great cartridge.
I get 3900 FPS with my 223 WSSM 60 grain Barnes Measured with my Garmin, but the Remington 700 Factory Rifle is in 1/10 Twist. I feel it would be Awesome in 1/7 twist . Shoots 1/2 in 100 Yards.
Typo mine is a Winchester model 70 1/10 Twist
This cartridge is far from a lead ballon. Hand load it and you can have a flat-shooting, deer killing machine on your hands. My son used his Model 70 in 243 WSSM to take his first two deer. This is an under appreciated cartridge.
My 223 Wssm a bolt feeds great, my dad has a twin and his does also.
Another informative video thanks for the information you guys have.this one seems to be a bigger lead balloon than the 280 Remington or the 338 Federal in my opinion
I had almost all but forgotten the wssm line. And honestly thr wsm and rsum line really was only saved by the wildcaters, f, and benchrest guys to where it's wild watching the 300 wsm actually start making a comeback
What a funky little cartridge
Boy that 1 ar style O’Neill ops bunch did few yrs ago was badass…I’d love to have the wssm’s to play with
I know two guys that have em and they love em
They have to. they overpaid for them.
Idk what they paid for em but I know they reload for em and like em that's all I know
When i bought my A Bolt 25 wssm back in 2005 a box of shells was 21.99 a box. I currently have 5 boxes of Winchester 120 graniers and 5 boxes of HSM 117 grainers. They cost around $50 a box. My brother has 13 boxes of Winchester 95 grainers for his 243 wssm. And further more these calibers aren't any more ludicrous as the 6 arc, 6 creedmore, 6 dasher, and others. But haters gonna hate.
Both of these guns shoot MOA groups and we've never had any feeding issues. The only downfall to these were only Winchester and Browning were the only 2 manufacturers that built them. There was a couple of custom gun builders that built them for just a little while. If more brands chambered rifles in these calibers they'd be on the shelves in gun stores the same as the 243 win and the 2506.
During the lock down when all the TP disappeared i went everywhere in dfw looking for regular 243 ammo for my wifes hunting rifle. Scheels had tge 243 wssm on the shelf in various loadings. Nobody had any common stuff though. I ended up buying brass and bullets and hand loading a hunting load for the wife.
love the .243WSSM, those Winchester super short actions rifles were awesome
They're useless trash
I have a Win M70 custom built on a 26” barrel, with a 1:14 twist. For light bullets going lightning fast. I did have some feeding issues. However, the gun could shoot 2.25” groups at 500 yards. You could watch the woodchucks come apart in the scope. Heavy gun with a Holland muzzle break was awesome for watching impacts. Mostly I shoot 55 gr Nosler BT, but I’ve loaded 70 gr Sierra BlitzKings too.
I also have a regular M70 243 Win. I have very obvious increases in accuracy and performance over the original. But, it’s because of how I built it.
People do Ackley Improved cases all the time for 100-150 fps increase. So probably not correct to say it’s not enough of a performance gain. You gain accuracy too. All the bench rest guys know “short and fat is where it’s at!”
I think they’re being a little unfair with this, for the time the 243 WSSM was a pretty nice step up, and it was a really good deer cartridge, if you look at the numbers the 243 WSSM compares really well to the new 22 creedmoore and actually beats it to around the 100-150 yard mark, they should really re-release it as a cheaper competitor to the 22 creedmoore the ballistics are very good for it and they already had a semi-good platform that could be even more refined with new technologies
It would probably need a chamber respec for longer bullets. Funny thing is the 223 wssm is basically identical to the 22 creedmore in terms of lighter bullets. So giving that a longer bullet would give you creedmore power with arc length cases.
Definitely not getting re released anytime soon so it’s staying as a reloader’s cartridge. Which I wouldn’t even mind except there’s no factory brass anywhere.
We have a 223wssm in a abolt. It is actually a really good little rifle. Haven’t had a lot of feeding issues and very accurate. Also very very fast as stated in the show 55gr vmax above 4K if you load it. I would say it’s a good unit.
Olympic arms upper owner here. This thing is a monster in an AR. That being said the 6arc smokes it with high BC bullets at long range.
Wish I’d bought 2.
Hahaha, so true! Just a waste of gunpowder that one! Ryan had me dying every time he snickered 😂
Do the 6 Max
That's one that definitely needs to see the light of day. I really like that 400 legend case. Who wouldn't want a 6 arc with more case capacity that allows use of a stronger bolt?
Everybody got hung up trying to push the longest for caliber bullets out of the ar as possible, making the cases shorter and shorter to do so, and loosing the powder capacity necessary to make those super heavy bullets effective.
The argument "well those super heavy high bc bullets overtake the lighter ones at 900 yards" doesn't really matter when nobody is shooting anything besides plinking at dirt banks or gongs at 900 yards with those rounds in an ar.
In reality, most people wind up using much lighter bullets in those cartridges to get some speed and better mid range trajectory back, but they still don't have the powder capacity they could have had with a longer case that was made for those mid weight range bullets.
I hope more people find out about the 6 max and it becomes popular. It would make a great reasonable distance hunting round. Necked down to .22, it would make an awesome varmint cartridge for up to about 80 grain bullets.
80 grains barnes has killed many deer in California. 243 WSSM.
My friend brings this cartridge up from time to time.
Can you guys do a cartridge talk on any of the Sherman wildcats?
I have one of these in a browning stainless stalker. It's been a great rifle for me and an absolute tack driver. I just this year retired it for the far more available 6.5 cm. When I was researching the .243 wssm there was a lot of chatter about it being used in the updated S.A.W. that clearly didn't happen and the round went into obscurity.
I had a model 70 in 243 WSSM and I loved it. I thought it was the ideal deer rifle in my area. Wish I hadn’t sold it because I like being out of the loop on using what everyone else uses
Love my .243 WSSM in a AR platform!! What a hotrod!!!!
The wssm needs to come back in action
I wanna hear your guys opinion on what can be done to advance our external and terminal ballistic abilities at large. Get some guys from all facets of the game on a panel to weigh in, a barrel manufacturer, a ballistician, a bullet manufacturer, a silencer manufacturer, powder manufacturer, hit up the guys from alpha munitions to talk about brass, etc. I have a feeling some serious innovation could come from a public forum of experts sharing ideas with each other.
7MM WSM is in the same boat ammo wise. I can’t find many offerings for mine anymore. Good thing I bought in bulk about 10 years ago.
I have one, model 70, it is a wonderful round...
Dad had one. was pleasant to shoot and very accurate. My only complaint was the BOSS system would start to unscrew itself after a few rounds. Didn't matter how hard I tightened it.
What about 7mm wsm. Why did that one die?
Bad marketing, hit the market at the wrong moment in history. Great cartridge.
Bad marketing lol
Winchester lost a copyright lawsuit and have to pay royalties on any ammo/brass they produce.
Mostly it was no availability of good quality cases.
Both the 7mm wsm and 300 wsm was being used in long range shooting. Then they could not get hit cades.
Alpha just started offering 300 wsm cases.
I think a 10 minute or podcast about some Thompson center rifles would do a lot of good especially with Greg Ritz acquiring the business and hopefully bringing product to the market next year
I have 2, one Winchester in Polymer and one in laminate wood. Mock it is you like but it’s flat, hot and incredibly accurate, and more efficient in powder performance. And reloaded, I can burn it hot! So, like… whatever you guys lol
I recently picked up a Steyr Scout in .376 Steyr, looking forward to seeing it come up in a lead balloon episode haha
I can speak on the 223WSSM, had a model 70 Coyote. Nice stock and action to that gun but it was terrible in grouping. Found out the barrels were chrome lined and a poor job of it. The chrome was reported to flake off and contributed to the inaccuracy plus it would explode most hollow points because of the speed, I clocked 4300fps , bolt lift would be very stiff so I went down loading it to around 3600-3800 but still didn’t help with accuracy. Was glad to get rid of it but was hoping for succesd
About half the cartridges out today are a problem looking for a solution!
Man! Makes me wish I would have bought the 7 boxes I saw on clearance at a Walmart several years ago for dirt cheap. If I recall, they were like $16.97 for each 20 round box!!! Lesson learned!!!!
yea the only box I was able to find now was $89 for 20 lmao
I have a 243 wssm and was wondering what its possible to rechamber it to while keeping the same action
Used a 243 wssm necked up to 6.5mm for a while in 1000 yard benchrest. It shot well
@14:54 Mark is totally stoned. 😂
One of the cartridges of all time.
A very special Merry Christmas to Mark.
Got a question. What is normal barrel life for these and what’s the twist rate of off the shelf rifles
Dad had one. Pleasant to shoot and accurate. The BOSS kept unscrewing itself after 3-4 rounds though. Didn't matter how hard I tightened it.
If I remember correctly the early rifles didn’t feed well. Browning supposedly fixed the problem. The 25 WSSM was the star. It’s a shame that cartridge didn’t survive either.
I nominate the .30 Super Carry as the biggest lead balloon of all time. The .25 WSSM in a Browning Micro Medallion made for a easy to carry package that had the ability to take deer and similar built game.
I got curious while watching, and started looking for ammo. I found 2 places selling ammo for the 243 WSSM, both with single loading offerings for $5.00 and $5.83 per round. Never thought I’d find something that makes my 35 Whelen look plentiful and affordable by comparison.
.243 WSSM was one that I saw when I was just really starting to become interested in firearms and hunting. I looked into it and I was like...this offers next to nothing more over a standard action cartidge. If I wanted a short magnum, I'd go for the .300 WSM. Wonder what it would take to build a .300 WSM in a AR10? Now that would be a nice rifle.
I think we need a 25 wsm
25 Western
I believe you missed a huge reason for failure is of copyright/patent issues.
And let's be honest when was the last time Winchester was really successful at releasing a cartridge?? The 50s?
We had a pack of 14 coyotee's that were taking down deer every day and some were stocking and luring our golden retriever so i figured it was time to a more powerful rifle that would do the job. The fellow at our local Wholesale Sports (no longer in business) brought down a Winchester 243WSSM saying this cartridge is extremely flat shooting and would be great for coyotee's. I didnt know ammo would soon be very challenging to get but purchased this beautiful model 70 feather weight and a Tasco Titan 1.5 - 6 power scope (which i didn't know at the time would make this rifle far under scoped) and took it home with 4 boxes of Winchester .55 gr balistic silver tip ammo and 1 box of 95gr balostic silver tip ammo. I had only previously owned .22 open site rifles and a 12ga for upland bird game so was a green horn when it came to higher powered game rifles and scopes but this 243WSSM was my first! When i found out ammo was no longer being made I bought it up ever time i saw it and still do to this day! What my experience has been with this model 70 not always feeding the 243WSSM has been the casing not rising quite high ebough for the bolt to be able to catch and push it. I stretched the floor plate spring slightly and this helped with the issue. What i find amazing about the .55 gr are that even with this relatively low power scope after zero'ing at 200yrds (ya like i said a green horn at the time) it would allow me to consistantly hit targets at 100 and even 300 yrds with no hold over. i would just aim at center of my 8" plate and consistantly be able to hit it which at the time was good enough for me. What amazes me is that at 200 yrds the little .55 gr melts a pocket in the 8" mild steel plate that measures 5/8" across and 5/8" deep! at 300 yrds the pocket is 5/8" diameter but only 3/8" deep. So it packs a hell of a punch that doesn't look a whole lot different than the pocket my .308 leaves on the same piece of plate using a 165gr! I have since re loded more .55 gr but as well some 100gr but i feel the .55'rs are where this cartridge truly excels! 4200 ft/sec in the featerlight model 70 is amazing
I have owned all the wssm & wsm cartridges. They are all extremely accurate and we reached 4,180 out the muzzle with the 223 wssm. The point of these cartridges was accuracy and short actions and they accomplished that Wel. Never had any feed problems out of any of the rather browning or Winchester platforms. These guys are very mis informed on the cartridges. There is plenty of brass out there for us hand loaders to continue enjoying these cartridges.
7 wsm please
Lead Balloon in the Christmas stocking! 👍🏻 🎄
Had a friend buy me a box of .243 on the way to deer camp around 2006... He accidently bought me a box of .243 WSSM... I was very confused when I opened it to go hunting. I still have that box of ammo and no rifle for it, occasionally I will run into it while going through my ammo collection. I never throw it away cause it always makes me giggle when I open it up and look at that squatty little cartridge LOL
The Model 70s feed great not sure on the brownings. 150ft a second faster is a significant gain over the standard 243 with the factory options you brought up. Puts it right between 240 Weatherby and 243 winchester. May not have been needed but cool none the less. You guys didn't cover anything with the lawsuit against Winchester or them going under as contributing to the super shorts demise either.
My father had one of these and he stopped using it because the brass cracked after each shot with factory ammo
One of the cool variants in the early days was a 358 to meet Indianas original 1.625” coal limit later in the years Indiana lifted the limit to 1.8” where it stands today for public land where the 308 and wsm based cartridges started to shine. Lot of old tc encores floating around in those wildcat calibers
Beats the heck out of a 357 mag or 44
A buddy had the .223 WSSM, fast, but split most the cases. Don’t recall the accuracy of it.