I love the moment when an Imperial begins to recite the Prayers of the Ecclisarchy in front of a Word Bearer, to repel him and the Word Bearer begins to recite it with him word for word, then basically mocks him for his ignorance, that he knows these Rites because he saw his father write them all those millennia ago
@passchen-fail3704 in the story containing the Anchorite * spoiler spoiler* long war veterans of the Great crusade were pillaging a imperial world of the word bearers legion and they were shocked and stunned to dumbfounded laughing and amazement that the imperium was using their primarchs original works as the foundation of the Imperial Church
Why else would the God-Emperor spend 6 weeks touring Colchis as the the prophecized One by Lorgar who had conquered the planet in a religious Crusade as The Prophet of the One againat the ruling Church of the Four??? Why would Lorgar be allowed to write the Lecitio Divinitus and then spread it throughout the entire Imperium for over a century? Once you grasp the concept that Magnus unknowingly burning through the Webway Portal which trapped transdimensonal beings who exist outside of Linear Space-Time in a decade long pocket of Linear Space-Time cut off from themselves as THE PLAN succeeding then 40k makes perfect sense. It's weird how literally no one in the entire 40k fandom has read Dune even though 40k rupped off Dune as its source material (and did so much better with it cause the God-Emperor in 40k has appropriate god level enemies unlike the God-Emperor in Dune who is only given AI has the enemy and his solution doesn't even help against them.)
@nationalsocialism3504 I'm new to 40k, and I've been struggling with the emperor's logic for a long while. Please, could you share some of your sources for a newcomer
If the imperium has the Ultramarines serving as the gold standard for Loyalist Astartes legions, then the Word Bearers are the most quintessential Chaos Space marines that ever were. I’m honestly shocked how sparingly they get represented considering how pivotal their role in the story is
@@orcho141 In terms ideology, the Word Bearers are the opposite of the Ultramarines not the Black Legion. The Ultramarines wanted to build a secular and advanced society while the Words Bearers wanted to build a religious one ( worshipping the emperor before the heresy and Chaos after). The Black Legion couldn't care less what they would do after destroying the imperium.
@@orcho141 I always thought of the Black Legion as being like the Dark Angels (and 'successors'). They are a vast, amorphous force split far and wide across the galaxy, striking seemingly at random, pursuing a vague series of objectives that only their leaders have any clear idea of. The Word Bearers strive for unity, discipline and organisation, which is very like the Ultramarines. Both of them even follow a sacred tome.
@fix0the0spade both of you have a better case than me. I was coming from a position of "they're both the most numerous, and basically the most 'default' chapter of their respective factions." Alas, both your analysis and such is better thought out than mine
I'm not a huge lore scholar, but if I had to guess as to why they don't get a lot of rep is because they have kinda already finished their "character arc." Lorgar's arc is effectively ended; he sought truth and love from his godly father, had his faith and love rejected, and fell to become the ultimate prophet of Chaos, the "divinity" he had looked for his whole life. His legion is a mirror of that arc in a sense, fallen heralds of the Imperial Truth to preachers of Chaos. Beyond important as the spark of the heresy, but beyond that? Once Horus beat up Lorgar, he slunk away to just praise Chaos all day, and his legion basically does the same thing besides raiding Imperial worlds that are holy. It also doesn't help that Lorgar is confirmed to be so terrified of Corax that he shuts himself in his room for most of the time, aside from a few bathroom breaks where he joins an Unholy Crusade. I think part of the problem is that the Black Legion is a far more compelling champion of Chaos Undivided to write about. Whether or not you take Abby seriously, in-universe he's done a lot of terrible things, has a clear goal, and leads a legion that incorporates elements of every Chaos god without it immediately falling to pieces. The WB aren't much of an existential threat by comparison. It doesn't help that the Word Bearers don't really have a cool trait besides being evil missionaries; they're not fetid abominations, incarnations of rage and slaughter, loud and degenerate partygoers, tortured space-dust wizards, human wave industrialists, space-CIA operatives, or the Night Lords. All those groups have something cool (alt-read: easily included) about them or their goals to add to a story, but the Word Bearers are just Chaos cultists who have power armor. That said, I think that the destruction of Cadia and beginning of Imperium Nihilus gives them an opportunity to do something interesting. It would be really cool to have a story about some chapter or maybe even the Lion and his boys going through Nihilus and finding Imperial worlds converted to Chaos with few if any scars of invasion, courtesy of the Word Bearers. Lean into the WB as these ancient, oratorically-gifted warrior-priests who can convert faithful worlds to Chaos without utterly destroying them, maybe even making them "better" for the people on them such that they see the Loyalist liberators as the real enemy now. That would give the WB something that fits their character and makes them a unique threat to the Imperium rather than making them just "less damaged and less powerful Thousand Sons who actually like serving Chaos." It would also set them up as a rival to the Black Legion, which could lead to interesting narrative possibilities. They probably also need some new named characters because Khor Phaeron and Erebus are just too unlikable to latch onto and root for (as they should be). Sorry for the long post but once I started thinking about the possibilities for them I kinda came to the same feeling as you expressed. They have a lot of potential and I hope we see more of them!
Lorgar is technically the only heresy winner. He found the gods/god he was searching for, created the religion to go along with it all. A religion thriving still over 10k years later.
No, he grieved and cried when he found that his faith in the Emperor as a god was false, and Chaos true. Lorgar, like the Emperor, deeply regrets the religion of the Imperium.
HERETIC! The Lords of Chaos are not gods, for if they were, they would not need our mortal worship! Prepare for boarding action by Astartes Chapter, The Revanchist Angels!
@@NeloBladeOfRanniThere's quite a lot examples in the stories about how Emps is only doing this whole shining superbeing image because it's the most effective at getting people to behave in the way he needs them to behave in order to achieve the plan he's made to save humanity. Emps could discard it in a second and would prefer to just live as a hermit. The problem with Emps isn't that he's a narcissist or that he's a psychopath. He's neither. His problem is that her has absolute conviction. He _knows_ he's right, without any shadow of doubt in the slightest. It's not hubris but it certainly looks like it. A certainty of the sort that one might expect from a supreme god. It's why he's the anathema to chaos as he's near incorruptible. However, he's not always right. So his absolute conviction is sometimes a huge problem. It's how chaos nearly gets him in the end: playing his greatest strength against him, pushing him to draw too much of the warp into himself and get corrupted indirectly. In the end it was only someone managing to get Emps to have a moment of second guessing himself, the only individual in the galaxy who could get Emps to do that once his mind was set, who got Emps to step back from that trap. The fact that the individual who was able to do that felt compelled by fate towards just getting to Emps and talking to him, he didn't even really know what to talk about beforehand, is a cool part of the story. Was that Tzeentch's hand or something else?
It's difficult to follow the narrative surrounding Lorgar, as the BL writers have said they did not know what to do with him. This leads to a lot of inconsistencies in his character, as the writers seem to have differing understandings of him. I prefer to believe he knows exactly what he is doing, and has been working tirelessly to master Enuncia as well as complete his book which will allow his apostles to command demons to an extent hitherto unknown.
Thank you for this comment, it legit explains a lot regarding how his character's portrayed. Granted, I only have the perspective of a pure lore standpoint as I've yet to read any books that Lorgar's been in; but it hasn't escaped my notice how... Inconsistent his character is at times. I tend to just think of him as being inherently corrupted and always having been evil, he just needed a sufficient catalyst to let that evil come out to the surface... That or he's just a slave to his need for a higher-power to worship, so much so he'll change up from being an arguably "good guy" to worshipping four Satans and committing untold atrocities in their name.
Look, as much as I hate what they’ve become, the truth is that they and their primarch were right and Big E lied. Lorgar had a bunch of flaws, but what really did him in was that he knew he was right and couldn’t understand why not only did everyone reject his theses but openly ridiculed them when they were so obviously correct. Big E’s excuse for burning Monarchia down was laughable. “You’re too slow”. Yeah, but when the WBs conquered a world and then remade it, you could pretty much just fuck off and never touch it again. You got a model Imperial planet whose loyalty was all but guaranteed wherever they set foot. Mutiny was functionally unimaginable. And guess what? Everything humanity has in 40k, they owe it to Lorgar. His work is the only reason we’ve survived Big E being turned into a golden psychic artichoke. We can hate them alright, god knows they deserve it, but they’re undoubtedly the most competent legion by far, they’re literally carrying TWO WHOLE MORTALLY OPPOSED FACTIONS.
Lorgar still fell to Chaos, and likely would have pulled all of his worlds into damnation as well. His creed wasn't the biggest problem, but he was. He was always going to be a weak link to corruption.
Lorgar couldn't live with the fact that he'd waged holy war on his own home world in the service of a god emperor who didn't want his worship. It's why he never embraced the imperial truth, and why he went out looking to validate the old faith of his homeworld (chaos worship) after the emperor rebuked him at Monarchia. It's not only that he was devoted to the pursuit of truth, but also that he couldn't live with the fact that he'd slaughtered his own people in the service of a lie. If it feels like Lorgar "won" it's probably because he did get his revenge, whatever it cost him and the galaxy as a whole.
The creation of the Primarchs always reminds me of the old adage: "Never hand someone a gun unless you are very sure where they are going to point it."
The problem is that the Emperor is a hypcorite or possibly even a liar. He never understood the people he sought to rule and thereby doomed mankind. One must remember that even at it's height the Imperium was a pale shadow of the glories that had come before. Lorgar was ultimately right about the Emperor, Horus, and his brothers. Of all the doctrines of Chaos his is the only one that establishes an equal relationship with the Gods. Word Bearers do not become slaves to the powers as do those who follow one specific deity nor do they wallow in pointless bitterness as do other renegade factions. They acknowledge that even God's must be kept in line and thus the ordering of Faith through religion is necessary.
I have always seen the emperor's plan as flawed from the beginning. Instead of learning how to make AI more reliable he straight up ditched them but his plan to progress humanity without AI is a dead end from the beginning. Humans without AI simply cannot compete with other races in 40k, Eldars are smarter, Orks are stronger and Necron both. The baseline humans simply can't keep up with those races our golden age was shorter than that of the Eldar and the Imperium golden age is even shorter still. There are only two ways to resist Chaos in 40k, not relying on the warp like the Tau or Necron or become strong psykers like the Ork, Tyranid or even Eldars to fight the influence of the warp. Humanity stuck in the middle and not only we don't benefits from Warp like the Eldars we also get the vulnerability of weak psykers which the Necron and Tau don't suffer from. Now the lore implied that humanity had been evolving to become strong psykers and the emperor wanted to guide that evolutionary process. But the problem is I'm not sure if the emperor knows how to do that because such a transition has never happened in 40k as both Eldars and Orks didn't become strong psykers but are created that way from the beginning.
@@minhducnguyen9276 The worst of it is that we learn the Men of Iron were more like the Matrix than Skynet. They only wanted to be treated with respect. If you simply treat AI as sentient when it becomes sentient there are no issues. The Votann don't have a problem with their AI.
@@theprelate4219 The emperor flaw is he is not human and therefore doesn't work the way normal humans would. Humans are social animals cooperation is the way human work. But that requires the emperor to put his sons into important positions and admit that there are certain things that they can do better than him, not because they are genetically gifted but because they are not burdened with other tasks. But this created a problem, either they become too important, like Gulliman at the present, that the emperor can't get rid of them like in his original plan or they are useless, like Lorgar, also according to his plan. But if they are important then they deserve to get the authority they needed to perform their tasks and if they are useless, then why must they take part in the construction of a society where they will have no place instead of demolishing it? Malcador is also manipulative in this regard, he didn't like Gulliman and Lionel because they are doing their jobs but he liked Lorgar because he's a psyker. And it played out exactly like that, Gulliman was disappointed that the emperor withheld crucial information that could have helped him saying the Imperium and Lorgar could not take it and snapped. Hell even the well tempered Khan realized that he'd have no place in an Imperium at peace and left. Not to mention Khan said the Imperium wouldn't work anyway knowing what kind of person the emperor is.
That's because the "height" that you refer too was just Big E getting started. If he was able to complete his web way project and if he made the one key decision to allow freedom of religion rather than outlawing it all he could have had a much different outcome. I don't think he doomed mankind himself, because if any of the traitor primarchs had even the slightest level of actual resolve, none of them would have taken their legions to join Chaos. The primarchs who started the Heresy brutally crippled the Imperium with their selfishness and that is what doomed mankind.
@@rexmagi4606 All we know of the lost Primarchs is that whatever they did was even worse than Horus' rebellion and I suspect that the Emperor is somewhat to blame here. At the least he failed to prevent it. During the Golden Age/Dark Age of Technology the warp was not literally Hell and thus there was no need for a webway at all. I suspect that Big E has been more of a fuck up than his fans would like to admit from day one. Outlawing Religion was stupid and did not actually achieve it's intended purpose. Creating biological weapons thinking that this would be somehow better than AI was at the least naive and when you consider that the Men of Iron were more Matrix than Skynet one begins to suspect he had an alterior motive in stunting mankinds technological advancement.
Yes they won. They got what they wanted out of it, freedom from the Imperium and service to the gods. Horus ended up dead, the Emperor ended up crippled, Lorgar ended up immortal. There is no questioning their victory in that context.
I’m biased, but the whole thing should’ve been called the “Lorgar Heresy”…. Horus was just the poster child, the face of the movement. Lorgar/Erebus really started it all.
Would be so cool to see the word bearers make a big return in present setting. Their aesthetic is really so cool and theyd do a much better job at the front seat of chaos than the black legion, which are frankly a bit boring in comparison.
"All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of Human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."
I was just arguing with a friend of mine over this EXACT topic!!! Thank you for bringing this video to conversation, I shall ILLUMINATE him… #EREBUSDIDNOTHINGWRONG
Word Bearers' favorite quote from prehistoric records of Man: "Checkmate, atheists!" Also it's kinda ironic that the Inquisition was born from the fruits of labor of the most demoic of all Chaos legions.
The stated goal of the Word Bearers was to bring the entirety of mankind to the worship of Chaos, and ultimately creating an evolution of humanity where every human was possessed and in direct communion with the Gods. They clearly have not achieved this goal.
That was certain characters goal, not that of the Word Bearers as a whole. If anyone can speak to what the goals of the Legion as a whole are its Lorgar, not Argel Tal for example. If the Word Bearers have failed, noone else can claim to have won. Half of humanity clings to faith of the emperor in accordance with Lorgars old teachings and the other worships Chaos - a total and complete victory of their ideology if not the people that have spread it.
If you read the book Aurelian you find out that Lorgar is given a vision of the future by Kairos where he sees Guilliman going wtf I never hated you, and Lorgar decided this future was a lie because he had such a victimhood complex that he thought Guilliman had to have hated him. Then the events of Know no Fear happen and hes like whelp im in too deep now anyways. Lorgar to me is the biggest manchild loser Primarch who basically threw a temper tantrum and murdered humanity and the dream of the emperor because he couldnt have things his way, kind of like the idealogical excuse of if im not going to be king ill burn everything down around me and reign over the ashes type idea. Lorgar is a liar and he lies to himself even when he says he wants the truth, really what he wants is validation and someone to say yes to him. Essentially Lorgar is not really an intelectual but rather say an artist pesudo intelectual who plays at greatness and I think it rather shows of all the Primarchs id say Magnus overshadows him in every way in terms of ability and focus, the ability to create tension and division through idealogical differences, the fact that hes an intelectual and a fighter, and that his fall is genuinely a tragic affair and something outside of his hands, something even he largely regrets. Lorgar is just an asshole and his legion are wackos basically a step above the World Eaters as they are blood thirsty power driven maniacs who dress up their motivations with some kinda religious garb. They never really ask themselves what is the point of their intelectual or idealogical pursuits if the results are just war, murder, and torture, which only is used as an excuse to justify more acts of murder and torture. You want me to think Lorgar's fall is justified or hes some sort of sympathetic character, my answer is a hard no, him and his legion are what id diagnose as Fucked in the Head.
Lorgar is the most courageous Primarch. He is the only one who had the nerve to act on dreams of being anything other than a weapon for the Emperor. Whereas others sulked, submitted or privately pined. When the Enperor slapped him down he set out to see if he could take revenge when everyone else similarly humbled kissed the ring until they had the Heresy. Lorgar was having his Custodes minders killed long before, unsure and uncaring if he had wider support from other legions. Lorgar had been prophesied to likely die each time he faces Corax in battle. Yet he chooses to twice to save his sons. He also gets himself killed trying to save Angron. Doing the right thing as he sees it, is more important than his own survival. His legion needed the least purging for the Heresy, they are more loyal to him than any other legion is to their Primarch. Their command structure and unity remains largely intact even with his seclusion. Rivaled only by the Red Corsairs and Black Legion in number (two factions that accept anyone into their ranks). Lorgar and his Word Bearers are the foundation on which Chaos rests. Willing to fight the Imperium alone if needed because it, to their mind, is the right thing to do. Ironically a stance in keeping with many of the loyalist legions. The Word Bearers are the team players Chaos badly needs.
That’s a lot of words to say that Lorgar was mad he had his pride and joy burnt down, but I didn’t read them. I’m glad for you or, uh, sad that happened I guess
@@passchen-fail3704Because I dont use a smart phone I possess a high attention span as well as an attention to detail. If anything I think the writers of the Horus Heresy created a dynamic story with believable characters who not only represent the flaws of humanity but its triumphs as well. My point of what I see in Lorgar is basically the seed of Cain where envy dominates, he cannot handle the idea of anyone else being his equal or better. I'd put it that Lorgar's worship of the Emperor was not genuine as he wanted to be special or a chosen son, the Emperor tried to show im his error but he doubled down and then attempted to kill the brother who humbled him.
⚡ Since the Emperor is the God of Humanity, thanks to Lorgar Aurelian all of Colchis is freed and purified from the cult of Chaos (thanks to his colchisian crusaders led by the true and pious Erebus: Truth Bearers). Lorgar Aurelian is the one who then founds the Ecclesiarchy with his Crusader Order: the Frateris Militaris. Lorgar Aurelian is like Ascalon Troyes, equal to Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius! (Illuminarum is not a maul but a mace)
🟡 If Rogal Dorn is the Latin Catholic then Lorgar Aurelian is the Greek Orthodox. And that's why the name of his Legion, the Word Bringers (Word Bearers + Truth Bringers). (Byzantine Crusader type)
Logar is truly detestable but he is well written compared to most of the Primarch's that fell to chaos. No Primarch brought as much lies & disorder to the Imperium leading to fanatic devotion that should never have been for so much is lost never to be known again with only one man to blame that is Logar. He is the most unredeemable of the Emperors sons in my opinion though I could see an argument for Horus or perhaps Mortarion as the latter was always bitter about daddy taking his planet under thumb instead of him unlike most every primarch.
@@RedHierophant23 Agreed! Logar is one of the better written Chaos son's but I think Horus was better written but he is kind of likable unlike Logar. Horus is a bad guy but he got style & his reasons for going against his father are understandable as he grew tired of lies but really lack of trust. Got to like his resolve & willing ness to go to any length for his convictions as in his want to make humanity prosper by seizing power he caused the opposite ironically by aligning with reject F up's like Fulgrim Mortarion & worse of all Logar. Angron is just angry spikes in head so honestly can't really blame they guy as he ain't compos mentis but most 1 dimensional Primarch that is poorly written. They really need to do something development wise with Angron & his legions.
Logar and Pertarabo had the most legitimate reasons for falling to Chaos, the others were kind of lame in my honest opinion, but in so far as all the Traitor Primarch's, he is by far the best written (Not counting Abadon).
@@cadefoster6626 Abaddon suspected clone progeny of Horus. Horus's reasons were sound for ambition to rule & false visions that would lead to mankind's fall under the emperor hence he see's his father as the betrayer when really the betrayal is Horus's. If not for the fact he is not among the living Horus could be redeemed much more easily then the other fallen son's of the Emperor. Magnus the red is likely the most logical to bring back into the loyalists mind. Really he didn't do much but break the wall in the web way & get his thousand sons obliterated then mope about for the most part. Pertarabo is probably my favourite chaos primarch but that is likely because Rogal Dorn is my favourite. Pertarabo's With Dorn & Logar's interactions are some of the best in the whole of 40k.
It was all erebus and kor phaerons’ fault. They slowly feed him the dark teachings of the chaos gods. That’s how his obsession for a divine figure started.
Two things: do you guys think Big E knew the story of how the Eldar brought Slanesh to be and didn’t want to be worshipped as a god out of fear that the combined prayers of the people would turn him into a chaos god? And Fuck Erebus, all my homies hate Erebus
Am I the only one that finds it funny that Lorgar Could’ve stayed loyalist if he simply converted to the Mechanicus religion and spread the faith that way. I doubt the Emperor would burn a Mechanicus world like he did to Lorgars world if only because the whole of the Mechanicus would rebel and that would lead to a Chaos victory.
The torture and sadistic things they do isn't what turns me off, it's not having fun like fulgrim and the bois from the 3rd. The best. Fabius and friends. Erebus is super cool, doing things for fun. Torched big E and his dream...edge lord number 1.😊
The only true victors of the Horus Heresy were Ruinous Powers. The Long War has begun. That was the goal of The Primodial Anihilator from the get go. Let the galaxy burns and the Great game last forever.
I sold my soul to mighty Slaanesh (aka the pinnacle of perfection, the Prince of pleasure, the master of all things, etcetera, etcetera...) at the age of 14 and I haven't regretted it for a second! 🍆💊🎸
I love the moment when an Imperial begins to recite the Prayers of the Ecclisarchy in front of a Word Bearer, to repel him and the Word Bearer begins to recite it with him word for word, then basically mocks him for his ignorance, that he knows these Rites because he saw his father write them all those millennia ago
40k’s “do not cite the deep magic to me, witch. i was there when it was written” equivalent
Imagine how terrifying that would be lmao, I can’t help but love the word bearers (obviously not Kor Phaeron or Erebus I‘m not a psychopath)
SAUCE
I need to know where I can read that.
@@marcwittkowski5146the revelation of the word.
They do this to Lorgar himself.
One of the best plot points is the imperium uses the original works of Lorgar as their holy books and the WB didnt know it.
They do know it and the word bearers all learn it by heart to debate it and shatter imperial citizens’ faith and corrupt them.
@passchen-fail3704 in the story containing the Anchorite * spoiler spoiler* long war veterans of the Great crusade were pillaging a imperial world of the word bearers legion and they were shocked and stunned to dumbfounded laughing and amazement that the imperium was using their primarchs original works as the foundation of the Imperial Church
Why else would the God-Emperor spend 6 weeks touring Colchis as the the prophecized One by Lorgar who had conquered the planet in a religious Crusade as The Prophet of the One againat the ruling Church of the Four??? Why would Lorgar be allowed to write the Lecitio Divinitus and then spread it throughout the entire Imperium for over a century?
Once you grasp the concept that Magnus unknowingly burning through the Webway Portal which trapped transdimensonal beings who exist outside of Linear Space-Time in a decade long pocket of Linear Space-Time cut off from themselves as THE PLAN succeeding then 40k makes perfect sense. It's weird how literally no one in the entire 40k fandom has read Dune even though 40k rupped off Dune as its source material (and did so much better with it cause the God-Emperor in 40k has appropriate god level enemies unlike the God-Emperor in Dune who is only given AI has the enemy and his solution doesn't even help against them.)
@@nationalsocialism3504please go through this and PUNCTUATE it so I can understand it.
Its just garbled half-nonsense mate
@nationalsocialism3504 I'm new to 40k, and I've been struggling with the emperor's logic for a long while.
Please, could you share some of your sources for a newcomer
"Do not worship me as a god" says the giant man clad in gold with halos and is pretty much unrivaled in every aspect and and is immortal.
He should have just made a galactic social media and post dumbass clips of himself in there. That would break the illusion real quick
@@ZaKRo-bx7lp "Hi! I'm the Emperor and this is exterminatus!" *Ques up Jackass theme song*
Then he ended up being worshipped anyway.
oh and has a literal angel as a son.
If the imperium has the Ultramarines serving as the gold standard for Loyalist Astartes legions, then the Word Bearers are the most quintessential Chaos Space marines that ever were. I’m honestly shocked how sparingly they get represented considering how pivotal their role in the story is
Isn't the black legion essentially chaos version of the ultramarines?
@@orcho141 In terms ideology, the Word Bearers are the opposite of the Ultramarines not the Black Legion. The Ultramarines wanted to build a secular and advanced society while the Words Bearers wanted to build a religious one ( worshipping the emperor before the heresy and Chaos after). The Black Legion couldn't care less what they would do after destroying the imperium.
@@orcho141 I always thought of the Black Legion as being like the Dark Angels (and 'successors'). They are a vast, amorphous force split far and wide across the galaxy, striking seemingly at random, pursuing a vague series of objectives that only their leaders have any clear idea of. The Word Bearers strive for unity, discipline and organisation, which is very like the Ultramarines. Both of them even follow a sacred tome.
@fix0the0spade both of you have a better case than me. I was coming from a position of "they're both the most numerous, and basically the most 'default' chapter of their respective factions." Alas, both your analysis and such is better thought out than mine
I'm not a huge lore scholar, but if I had to guess as to why they don't get a lot of rep is because they have kinda already finished their "character arc." Lorgar's arc is effectively ended; he sought truth and love from his godly father, had his faith and love rejected, and fell to become the ultimate prophet of Chaos, the "divinity" he had looked for his whole life. His legion is a mirror of that arc in a sense, fallen heralds of the Imperial Truth to preachers of Chaos. Beyond important as the spark of the heresy, but beyond that? Once Horus beat up Lorgar, he slunk away to just praise Chaos all day, and his legion basically does the same thing besides raiding Imperial worlds that are holy. It also doesn't help that Lorgar is confirmed to be so terrified of Corax that he shuts himself in his room for most of the time, aside from a few bathroom breaks where he joins an Unholy Crusade.
I think part of the problem is that the Black Legion is a far more compelling champion of Chaos Undivided to write about. Whether or not you take Abby seriously, in-universe he's done a lot of terrible things, has a clear goal, and leads a legion that incorporates elements of every Chaos god without it immediately falling to pieces. The WB aren't much of an existential threat by comparison. It doesn't help that the Word Bearers don't really have a cool trait besides being evil missionaries; they're not fetid abominations, incarnations of rage and slaughter, loud and degenerate partygoers, tortured space-dust wizards, human wave industrialists, space-CIA operatives, or the Night Lords. All those groups have something cool (alt-read: easily included) about them or their goals to add to a story, but the Word Bearers are just Chaos cultists who have power armor.
That said, I think that the destruction of Cadia and beginning of Imperium Nihilus gives them an opportunity to do something interesting. It would be really cool to have a story about some chapter or maybe even the Lion and his boys going through Nihilus and finding Imperial worlds converted to Chaos with few if any scars of invasion, courtesy of the Word Bearers. Lean into the WB as these ancient, oratorically-gifted warrior-priests who can convert faithful worlds to Chaos without utterly destroying them, maybe even making them "better" for the people on them such that they see the Loyalist liberators as the real enemy now. That would give the WB something that fits their character and makes them a unique threat to the Imperium rather than making them just "less damaged and less powerful Thousand Sons who actually like serving Chaos." It would also set them up as a rival to the Black Legion, which could lead to interesting narrative possibilities. They probably also need some new named characters because Khor Phaeron and Erebus are just too unlikable to latch onto and root for (as they should be).
Sorry for the long post but once I started thinking about the possibilities for them I kinda came to the same feeling as you expressed. They have a lot of potential and I hope we see more of them!
Lorgar is technically the only heresy winner. He found the gods/god he was searching for, created the religion to go along with it all. A religion thriving still over 10k years later.
That's what he tells himself, as he hides from Corvus Corax hahahahaha
No, he grieved and cried when he found that his faith in the Emperor as a god was false, and Chaos true. Lorgar, like the Emperor, deeply regrets the religion of the Imperium.
Lorgar found the truth. And then that “truth” found everyone else lol
Well that's what often happens with truths... It surfaces to the daylight one way or another
Yep, you guessed it... it was Orks, Orks won da horse's hershey
Hey, it's not the Word Bearers fault that it turns out that there really _are_ gods...and those gods are all psychopaths.
or out of control weapons
I mean the Emperor is a straight up narcissist and psychopath so he wasn't exactly much better
@@NeloBladeOfRanni Where is the contradiction?
HERETIC! The Lords of Chaos are not gods, for if they were, they would not need our mortal worship!
Prepare for boarding action by Astartes Chapter, The Revanchist Angels!
@@NeloBladeOfRanniThere's quite a lot examples in the stories about how Emps is only doing this whole shining superbeing image because it's the most effective at getting people to behave in the way he needs them to behave in order to achieve the plan he's made to save humanity.
Emps could discard it in a second and would prefer to just live as a hermit.
The problem with Emps isn't that he's a narcissist or that he's a psychopath. He's neither.
His problem is that her has absolute conviction. He _knows_ he's right, without any shadow of doubt in the slightest. It's not hubris but it certainly looks like it. A certainty of the sort that one might expect from a supreme god.
It's why he's the anathema to chaos as he's near incorruptible.
However, he's not always right. So his absolute conviction is sometimes a huge problem.
It's how chaos nearly gets him in the end: playing his greatest strength against him, pushing him to draw too much of the warp into himself and get corrupted indirectly. In the end it was only someone managing to get Emps to have a moment of second guessing himself, the only individual in the galaxy who could get Emps to do that once his mind was set, who got Emps to step back from that trap.
The fact that the individual who was able to do that felt compelled by fate towards just getting to Emps and talking to him, he didn't even really know what to talk about beforehand, is a cool part of the story.
Was that Tzeentch's hand or something else?
They won twice:
First when the Emperror was wounded
Second when the Imperium adopted the Lectitio Divinitatus
It's difficult to follow the narrative surrounding Lorgar, as the BL writers have said they did not know what to do with him. This leads to a lot of inconsistencies in his character, as the writers seem to have differing understandings of him. I prefer to believe he knows exactly what he is doing, and has been working tirelessly to master Enuncia as well as complete his book which will allow his apostles to command demons to an extent hitherto unknown.
Thank you for this comment, it legit explains a lot regarding how his character's portrayed. Granted, I only have the perspective of a pure lore standpoint as I've yet to read any books that Lorgar's been in; but it hasn't escaped my notice how... Inconsistent his character is at times. I tend to just think of him as being inherently corrupted and always having been evil, he just needed a sufficient catalyst to let that evil come out to the surface... That or he's just a slave to his need for a higher-power to worship, so much so he'll change up from being an arguably "good guy" to worshipping four Satans and committing untold atrocities in their name.
@@refurbishedtechpriest9076 Read Aurelian by ADB, it fixes his character.
@@pyotrbagration2438 I'll be sure to do so, thanks for the recommendation.
@@refurbishedtechpriest9076Him being always evil makes the least amount of sense
ADB is the only one who seems to have the best understanding of him, well of Chaos in general
Look, as much as I hate what they’ve become, the truth is that they and their primarch were right and Big E lied. Lorgar had a bunch of flaws, but what really did him in was that he knew he was right and couldn’t understand why not only did everyone reject his theses but openly ridiculed them when they were so obviously correct. Big E’s excuse for burning Monarchia down was laughable. “You’re too slow”. Yeah, but when the WBs conquered a world and then remade it, you could pretty much just fuck off and never touch it again. You got a model Imperial planet whose loyalty was all but guaranteed wherever they set foot. Mutiny was functionally unimaginable. And guess what? Everything humanity has in 40k, they owe it to Lorgar. His work is the only reason we’ve survived Big E being turned into a golden psychic artichoke. We can hate them alright, god knows they deserve it, but they’re undoubtedly the most competent legion by far, they’re literally carrying TWO WHOLE MORTALLY OPPOSED FACTIONS.
exactly. in short Lorgar was right.
Lorgar still fell to Chaos, and likely would have pulled all of his worlds into damnation as well. His creed wasn't the biggest problem, but he was. He was always going to be a weak link to corruption.
I've said it before that Logar won. Humanity worships the emperor like a god just like Logar originally was doing
Lorgar couldn't live with the fact that he'd waged holy war on his own home world in the service of a god emperor who didn't want his worship. It's why he never embraced the imperial truth, and why he went out looking to validate the old faith of his homeworld (chaos worship) after the emperor rebuked him at Monarchia. It's not only that he was devoted to the pursuit of truth, but also that he couldn't live with the fact that he'd slaughtered his own people in the service of a lie. If it feels like Lorgar "won" it's probably because he did get his revenge, whatever it cost him and the galaxy as a whole.
The creation of the Primarchs always reminds me of the old adage: "Never hand someone a gun unless you are very sure where they are going to point it."
The problem is that the Emperor is a hypcorite or possibly even a liar. He never understood the people he sought to rule and thereby doomed mankind. One must remember that even at it's height the Imperium was a pale shadow of the glories that had come before. Lorgar was ultimately right about the Emperor, Horus, and his brothers. Of all the doctrines of Chaos his is the only one that establishes an equal relationship with the Gods. Word Bearers do not become slaves to the powers as do those who follow one specific deity nor do they wallow in pointless bitterness as do other renegade factions. They acknowledge that even God's must be kept in line and thus the ordering of Faith through religion is necessary.
I have always seen the emperor's plan as flawed from the beginning. Instead of learning how to make AI more reliable he straight up ditched them but his plan to progress humanity without AI is a dead end from the beginning. Humans without AI simply cannot compete with other races in 40k, Eldars are smarter, Orks are stronger and Necron both. The baseline humans simply can't keep up with those races our golden age was shorter than that of the Eldar and the Imperium golden age is even shorter still. There are only two ways to resist Chaos in 40k, not relying on the warp like the Tau or Necron or become strong psykers like the Ork, Tyranid or even Eldars to fight the influence of the warp. Humanity stuck in the middle and not only we don't benefits from Warp like the Eldars we also get the vulnerability of weak psykers which the Necron and Tau don't suffer from. Now the lore implied that humanity had been evolving to become strong psykers and the emperor wanted to guide that evolutionary process. But the problem is I'm not sure if the emperor knows how to do that because such a transition has never happened in 40k as both Eldars and Orks didn't become strong psykers but are created that way from the beginning.
@@minhducnguyen9276 The worst of it is that we learn the Men of Iron were more like the Matrix than Skynet. They only wanted to be treated with respect. If you simply treat AI as sentient when it becomes sentient there are no issues. The Votann don't have a problem with their AI.
@@theprelate4219 The emperor flaw is he is not human and therefore doesn't work the way normal humans would. Humans are social animals cooperation is the way human work. But that requires the emperor to put his sons into important positions and admit that there are certain things that they can do better than him, not because they are genetically gifted but because they are not burdened with other tasks. But this created a problem, either they become too important, like Gulliman at the present, that the emperor can't get rid of them like in his original plan or they are useless, like Lorgar, also according to his plan. But if they are important then they deserve to get the authority they needed to perform their tasks and if they are useless, then why must they take part in the construction of a society where they will have no place instead of demolishing it? Malcador is also manipulative in this regard, he didn't like Gulliman and Lionel because they are doing their jobs but he liked Lorgar because he's a psyker. And it played out exactly like that, Gulliman was disappointed that the emperor withheld crucial information that could have helped him saying the Imperium and Lorgar could not take it and snapped. Hell even the well tempered Khan realized that he'd have no place in an Imperium at peace and left. Not to mention Khan said the Imperium wouldn't work anyway knowing what kind of person the emperor is.
That's because the "height" that you refer too was just Big E getting started. If he was able to complete his web way project and if he made the one key decision to allow freedom of religion rather than outlawing it all he could have had a much different outcome. I don't think he doomed mankind himself, because if any of the traitor primarchs had even the slightest level of actual resolve, none of them would have taken their legions to join Chaos. The primarchs who started the Heresy brutally crippled the Imperium with their selfishness and that is what doomed mankind.
@@rexmagi4606 All we know of the lost Primarchs is that whatever they did was even worse than Horus' rebellion and I suspect that the Emperor is somewhat to blame here. At the least he failed to prevent it. During the Golden Age/Dark Age of Technology the warp was not literally Hell and thus there was no need for a webway at all. I suspect that Big E has been more of a fuck up than his fans would like to admit from day one. Outlawing Religion was stupid and did not actually achieve it's intended purpose. Creating biological weapons thinking that this would be somehow better than AI was at the least naive and when you consider that the Men of Iron were more Matrix than Skynet one begins to suspect he had an alterior motive in stunting mankinds technological advancement.
Aaaaaaaaaand link has been sent. EXTERMINATUS has been approved upon his position.
Yes they won. They got what they wanted out of it, freedom from the Imperium and service to the gods. Horus ended up dead, the Emperor ended up crippled, Lorgar ended up immortal. There is no questioning their victory in that context.
I’m biased, but the whole thing should’ve been called the “Lorgar Heresy”…. Horus was just the poster child, the face of the movement. Lorgar/Erebus really started it all.
The Word Bearers planned it so that Horus would become the poster boy for it
Would be so cool to see the word bearers make a big return in present setting. Their aesthetic is really so cool and theyd do a much better job at the front seat of chaos than the black legion, which are frankly a bit boring in comparison.
Lorgar “Father Lied”
All I ever wanted was the truth
"God was real, and he hated us!"
My favorite Legion and Primarch.
Really don't hear that very often... but both are compelling in the setting and get overlooked far too often.
Day one of me asking for iron hands
I think the only traitor legion left are the Sons of Horus, after that, who knows?
I don't consider them traitors, the emperor betrayed Lorgar first
Your conclusion is strange. The Word Bearer's never wanted an unending galactic war, they wanted apotheosis.
Apotheosis in what?
@@Davethe-Raveapotheosis is to gain godhood itself.
"All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of Human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."
Imperial """Truth"""
They not only won; they also, like Fabius Bile, perform exactly as they were designed by the Emperor.
Lorgar and the Word Bearers did nothing wrong, and Calth was an act of self defense!
“Won” is that what we call being perused by a Deamon Raven Primarch on your home turf??
I guess he won the play stupid games and win stupid prizes championship lol😅😅😂
Except lorgar isn't locked away in his tower anymore can you imperium simps come up with any actual new memes
@@NeloBladeOfRannithey cannot
Only when they stop being obsessed with shovels and happy gas masks. Truly sad, truly sad, sadly true
The current lore is that Lorgar has returned and is leading the Word Bearers again, stop relying on outdated memes
great vid, you've earned a sub.
Welcome aboard!
It's even more ironic that Guilliman, comes to the view "Yeah....he might be a god."
I wonder if he ever thinks "Monarchia...why?!"
I was just arguing with a friend of mine over this EXACT topic!!! Thank you for bringing this video to conversation, I shall ILLUMINATE him…
#EREBUSDIDNOTHINGWRONG
Word Bearers' favorite quote from prehistoric records of Man: "Checkmate, atheists!"
Also it's kinda ironic that the Inquisition was born from the fruits of labor of the most demoic of all Chaos legions.
The emperor should have never touched their church.
The stated goal of the Word Bearers was to bring the entirety of mankind to the worship of Chaos, and ultimately creating an evolution of humanity where every human was possessed and in direct communion with the Gods. They clearly have not achieved this goal.
That was certain characters goal, not that of the Word Bearers as a whole. If anyone can speak to what the goals of the Legion as a whole are its Lorgar, not Argel Tal for example.
If the Word Bearers have failed, noone else can claim to have won. Half of humanity clings to faith of the emperor in accordance with Lorgars old teachings and the other worships Chaos - a total and complete victory of their ideology if not the people that have spread it.
If you read the book Aurelian you find out that Lorgar is given a vision of the future by Kairos where he sees Guilliman going wtf I never hated you, and Lorgar decided this future was a lie because he had such a victimhood complex that he thought Guilliman had to have hated him. Then the events of Know no Fear happen and hes like whelp im in too deep now anyways. Lorgar to me is the biggest manchild loser Primarch who basically threw a temper tantrum and murdered humanity and the dream of the emperor because he couldnt have things his way, kind of like the idealogical excuse of if im not going to be king ill burn everything down around me and reign over the ashes type idea. Lorgar is a liar and he lies to himself even when he says he wants the truth, really what he wants is validation and someone to say yes to him. Essentially Lorgar is not really an intelectual but rather say an artist pesudo intelectual who plays at greatness and I think it rather shows of all the Primarchs id say Magnus overshadows him in every way in terms of ability and focus, the ability to create tension and division through idealogical differences, the fact that hes an intelectual and a fighter, and that his fall is genuinely a tragic affair and something outside of his hands, something even he largely regrets. Lorgar is just an asshole and his legion are wackos basically a step above the World Eaters as they are blood thirsty power driven maniacs who dress up their motivations with some kinda religious garb. They never really ask themselves what is the point of their intelectual or idealogical pursuits if the results are just war, murder, and torture, which only is used as an excuse to justify more acts of murder and torture. You want me to think Lorgar's fall is justified or hes some sort of sympathetic character, my answer is a hard no, him and his legion are what id diagnose as Fucked in the Head.
I’d ask who hurt you…but it was obviously Lorgar lol
Lorgar is the most courageous Primarch. He is the only one who had the nerve to act on dreams of being anything other than a weapon for the Emperor. Whereas others sulked, submitted or privately pined.
When the Enperor slapped him down he set out to see if he could take revenge when everyone else similarly humbled kissed the ring until they had the Heresy. Lorgar was having his Custodes minders killed long before, unsure and uncaring if he had wider support from other legions.
Lorgar had been prophesied to likely die each time he faces Corax in battle. Yet he chooses to twice to save his sons.
He also gets himself killed trying to save Angron. Doing the right thing as he sees it, is more important than his own survival.
His legion needed the least purging for the Heresy, they are more loyal to him than any other legion is to their Primarch. Their command structure and unity remains largely intact even with his seclusion. Rivaled only by the Red Corsairs and Black Legion in number (two factions that accept anyone into their ranks).
Lorgar and his Word Bearers are the foundation on which Chaos rests. Willing to fight the Imperium alone if needed because it, to their mind, is the right thing to do. Ironically a stance in keeping with many of the loyalist legions.
The Word Bearers are the team players Chaos badly needs.
Paragraphs and page breaks. They help. Trust me. The Emperor protects.
That’s a lot of words to say that Lorgar was mad he had his pride and joy burnt down, but I didn’t read them. I’m glad for you or, uh, sad that happened I guess
@@passchen-fail3704Because I dont use a smart phone I possess a high attention span as well as an attention to detail. If anything I think the writers of the Horus Heresy created a dynamic story with believable characters who not only represent the flaws of humanity but its triumphs as well. My point of what I see in Lorgar is basically the seed of Cain where envy dominates, he cannot handle the idea of anyone else being his equal or better. I'd put it that Lorgar's worship of the Emperor was not genuine as he wanted to be special or a chosen son, the Emperor tried to show im his error but he doubled down and then attempted to kill the brother who humbled him.
Souless AI.
The way it says Word Bearers sounds more like "Word: bearers".
⚡
Since the Emperor is the God of Humanity, thanks to Lorgar Aurelian all of Colchis is freed and purified from the cult of Chaos (thanks to his colchisian crusaders led by the true and pious Erebus: Truth Bearers).
Lorgar Aurelian is the one who then founds the Ecclesiarchy with his Crusader Order: the Frateris Militaris.
Lorgar Aurelian is like Ascalon Troyes, equal to Rogal Dorn and Sanguinius!
(Illuminarum is not a maul but a mace)
🟡
If Rogal Dorn is the Latin Catholic then Lorgar Aurelian is the Greek Orthodox.
And that's why the name of his Legion, the Word Bringers (Word Bearers + Truth Bringers).
(Byzantine Crusader type)
@@cesarerinaldi6750 and Dorn is Protestant and Lion is Aglican.
Not for the Black Templars⚫ and the Angels of Absolution⚪.
Logar is truly detestable but he is well written compared to most of the Primarch's that fell to chaos.
No Primarch brought as much lies & disorder to the Imperium leading to fanatic devotion that should never have been for so much is lost never to be known again with only one man to blame that is Logar.
He is the most unredeemable of the Emperors sons in my opinion though I could see an argument for Horus or perhaps Mortarion as the latter was always bitter about daddy taking his planet under thumb instead of him unlike most every primarch.
I hate Lorgar but he's genuinely interesting. I can't say the same for some of the other Primarchs.
@@RedHierophant23 Agreed!
Logar is one of the better written Chaos son's but I think Horus was better written but he is kind of likable unlike Logar.
Horus is a bad guy but he got style & his reasons for going against his father are understandable as he grew tired of lies but really lack of trust.
Got to like his resolve & willing ness to go to any length for his convictions as in his want to make humanity prosper by seizing power he caused the opposite ironically by aligning with reject F up's like Fulgrim Mortarion & worse of all Logar.
Angron is just angry spikes in head so honestly can't really blame they guy as he ain't compos mentis but most 1 dimensional Primarch that is poorly written.
They really need to do something development wise with Angron & his legions.
Logar and Pertarabo had the most legitimate reasons for falling to Chaos, the others were kind of lame in my honest opinion, but in so far as all the Traitor Primarch's, he is by far the best written (Not counting Abadon).
@@cadefoster6626 Abaddon suspected clone progeny of Horus.
Horus's reasons were sound for ambition to rule & false visions that would lead to mankind's fall under the emperor hence he see's his father as the betrayer when really the betrayal is Horus's.
If not for the fact he is not among the living Horus could be redeemed much more easily then the other fallen son's of the Emperor.
Magnus the red is likely the most logical to bring back into the loyalists mind.
Really he didn't do much but break the wall in the web way & get his thousand sons obliterated then mope about for the most part.
Pertarabo is probably my favourite chaos primarch but that is likely because Rogal Dorn is my favourite.
Pertarabo's With Dorn & Logar's interactions are some of the best in the whole of 40k.
It was all erebus and kor phaerons’ fault. They slowly feed him the dark teachings of the chaos gods. That’s how his obsession for a divine figure started.
Heresy! [BLAM]
Two things: do you guys think Big E knew the story of how the Eldar brought Slanesh to be and didn’t want to be worshipped as a god out of fear that the combined prayers of the people would turn him into a chaos god? And Fuck Erebus, all my homies hate Erebus
Am I the only one that finds it funny that Lorgar Could’ve stayed loyalist if he simply converted to the Mechanicus religion and spread the faith that way. I doubt the Emperor would burn a Mechanicus world like he did to Lorgars world if only because the whole of the Mechanicus would rebel and that would lead to a Chaos victory.
Now we're gonna get "there were always female word bearers" fuck 40k these days
My favorite Traitor Legion. 😊
The torture and sadistic things they do isn't what turns me off, it's not having fun like fulgrim and the bois from the 3rd. The best. Fabius and friends. Erebus is super cool, doing things for fun. Torched big E and his dream...edge lord number 1.😊
The only true victors of the Horus Heresy were Ruinous Powers. The Long War has begun. That was the goal of The Primodial Anihilator from the get go.
Let the galaxy burns and the Great game last forever.
I sold my soul to mighty Slaanesh (aka the pinnacle of perfection, the Prince of pleasure, the master of all things, etcetera, etcetera...)
at the age of 14 and I haven't regretted it for a second!
🍆💊🎸
fuck, yes!
Engagement
My dad was listening as I played this video.
He asked if you were Joe Biden giving a speech.
Sorry man
They're basically space muslims with the by far weakest Primarch. If that's winning I'd be happy to lose.
Why can only a select few make this lore sound anything but SleepY!!!
Thumbnail is a bit suss.
F the word bearers, their primarch is weak
The 17th are tools...😂
Ai voice
AI boo
Nah, bunch of losers.
Is it AI-made? Not critical just curious 🥹