This was an incredibly well told story about a motor installation, and the design to have as little effect on sailing performance was pure genius. It is obvious that the story took considerable thought and effort to execute from inception to final editing. All your videos are more informative and interesting than most of the RUclips sailing vlog fare, but this is one of your best. It even inspired me to go back and read your Practical Sailor articles again. You have good honest advice on how to approach a rehab project. I am just thankful that you make it all available for free, Thank You.
I did the same upgrade on my T34C in 2011 and I am happy with my decision. After more than 1,800 hours and 20,000NM, it is still going strong. Cheers, Richard
Your videos are well thought out. You seem to answer all of my questions as the video continues. Really like the sailing also! Keep up the hard work we enjoy the effort.
I've done a repower, including the need for new engine stringers. I think I did a good job. I know what constitutes a good job. Yours puts mine to shame. Absolutely brilliant, perfectly executed, no shortcuts. You are a master.
You mentioned the potential future sale of the far reach as a reason for installing the engine. I just want to put it out there that I would be interested if you did decide to sell. Also, thank you for sharing so much amazing knowledge and experience. Joshua Slocum comes to mind when I think of you.
Well I am flattered. But I am no Slocum. Capt Josh is at the top of the pyramid and in a league of his own. Re the FR, it's painful to even think that day will arrive, though eventually it must. But for now, I'm focused on our great partnership and the many tens of thousands of miles of sailing together still to come.
It will gradually get better, and the channel will be done well. Then sail full time. If the number of subscriptions exceeds 2000, there will be advertising revenue. Then electrify the whole boat (don't install if you don't like it). Our dream is to go sailing, and you are already sailing. On the other side of the world firmly supports you.
That's a great question. Thanks for asking it. Short version: Electric has limited range. The batteries are very expensive. You need 48v for any kind of power and you'll need twice that many batteries to have a reasonable sized bank. I priced out 10-15hp equivalent electric motor and a bare minimum 48v lithium bank and it cost more than the 25 HP diesel. Difficult to recharge unless you return to dock or cover your boat in solar panels. I don't like the look of all that hardware and you also have probably $2k-$5 K in just the arches to support the panels. No sun? No juice. Regeneration (free wheel prop under sail) is over hyped according to people I have talked to that have tried it. So no folding prop which means more drag and less performance under sail. Also, it's just a matter of time before all those electrons are going to be compromised in the salt water environment that is the reality for small boat off shore sailing. I'm not being critical of others who like that approach but it is not robust or reliable enough for me. That's my thinking in a nut shell. I wrote more in the PS articles or you can check the web site.
The RANGE is THE big issue. You can actually go pretty far on a charge, however, if you go slow and the water & wind are calm. I differ in my opinion from Far Reach about the reliability however. I think that the electric system is going to last way longer and be FAR more reliable than the diesel. And the battery cost should be thought of as buying your all your fuel for the next 10 years. (and weighs about as much as the engine + fuel) There are other benefits that most people don't think of as well, like adding just a little power can keep your sails full enough to keep sailing in conditions where diesel boats have to turn on the motor when the sail begin to slat in low wind.
@fiddleswithbikes You've clearly had a better experience with electronics on a boat than I have. I think electric drive sounds better in theory on cruising boat than it is in reality, though I'm sure it's getting better all the time. I know of six displacement sailboats with electric drive. None of the owners are happy. They like the motors are quiet but that's about it. Got a good friend with a big trimaran and a huge electric system and 2000 watts of solar. All installed by one of the finest boatyards. Nothing but trouble. Has spent a fortune trying to get it to work right and still not there. He seems determined to get it to work. Time will tell. Batteries can be quite fussy about being charged. I read up and visited the boat forums when I was gathering info and the angst among boat owners about battery woes of all kinds including LiFePo4 and the heated debate and arguing about charging, conditioning, equalization, voltage, amps, inverters and how it should or should not be done was tiresome and made my eyes glaze over. A lot of people with battery issues. I think you are right about fuel cost if you use the engine a lot like a car. I use about 10 gallons of diesel a year. Fuel cost is negligible for me. So for me and my situation there is no return on investment. If you enjoy messing with electrons (and many people seem to) and can really spread out the solar panels then perhaps you can be happy with electric drive on a cruising boat. But you better be able to do all the work yourself or it will cost more than you think. You're not going to find any experts out at the edge of the world to trouble shoot your system. A properly installed well maintained diesel is pretty darn reliable. Clean fuel, change the oil, lubricate the linkages. That's it. Diesels are used world wide so there are parts and mechanics out there though skills vary from great to terrible. With more advancement in charging capabilities (I see this as the big issue for voyaging boats) and more skills by everyday people we might eventually get there. There is no right or wrong on this just what is right or wrong for each sailor.
I owned an electric inboard Pearson 365 and I'd say the only saving grace for me on the EV was the improvement in interior smell vs the tired old diesels boats in my price range usually give. Range was a bummer. We actually still stuck a Tohatsu 6hp in an outboard motor well to make a hybrid compromise. 2 systems is pretty reliable in that way. I'd say in hindsight, either have a boat small enough that an outboard motor well alone makes sense or just go inboard diesel. 34' on a monohull is probably the cutoff between those. We actually have a catamaran with 2 outboards in wells now and that works pretty well for us. With all the real estate for solar, it will probably be a swap to 2 electric outboards one day since I'm allergic to gasoline now. As you say, no right or wrong answers here except for each sailor's situation. @@FarReachVoyages
You have the same prop location as I do on my Albin Vega. Works great in forward at speed, but maneuvering from a stand still and reverse can be an issue. Another thing to watch for is slings. When lifting out, they could inadvertently go under the prop.
Correct. It's not just the prop, the sling has to be forward of the rudder as well. We align the slings between the end of the cabin top and the base of the boom gallows frame.
Knowing a bit about your sailing philosophy, I was a bit surprised to see your inboard conversion episode. It is however very well done, expecting nothing less from your usual boat building skills and knowledge. I nevertheless would like to know why you didn't go electric? It seems to me like it would have been a nicer fit to your sailing philosophy. Congrats for this very nice job! :)
Hi Daniel. It's a great question. The short version is I think electric is just too limited for what you spend. It sounds better than it is in reality. For a more detailed explanation I recommend you scroll down in the comments to the entry by @woodman1113. He, @fiddleswithbikes, and I gammed on it a bit. I more or less explained my thinking. Others are going to feel different on this topic. That's OK.
Your work is so methodical. I am curious to see how that prop will work when berthing - as far as I know the prop should push water onto the rudder for it to be most efficient. How does it work the other way round?
You’re correct. With the prop in front of the rudder the helm is more responsive initially as water is pushed over the rudder and by initiating short blast of throttle and applying helm you can push the stern left of right…to a point. With the helm behind the rudder the boat has to start moving for water to flow over the rudder allowing it work. However, in reality I have found the helm to respond well with the boat barely moving. In theory the helm should be more responsive in reverse with the prop behind the rudder but I have not found that to be the case yet. Full keel boats are notoriously hard to steer in reverse especially with any cross wind, and the Far Reach is no different in that regard. Having sailed engineless for a long time I am used to planning ahead and avoiding situations that limit our ability to maneuver. I have not found any of these considerations to be a problem as I operate very conservatively under power.
@@FarReachVoyages yes that makes sense - with boat like ours reverse has almost no control - I berth by adjusting with forward movements- interesting i imagined your set up would have worked better in reverse - guess the underbody rules
How has the Beta 25 served you? Any regrets not getting a more powerful engine? I'm looking into buying a Cape Dory 36 also but I'm not as much of a purist when it comes to sailing. Plus I might want to do some lengthy canal trips in Europe where I'd be battling heavy currents a lot.
Everything you want to know about the engine install can be found on our website--www.FarReachVoyages.net. Four entries in agonizing detail. The Beta has been excellent though I don't have much use on it. I don't motor much. Plenty of power. I could have gone with a 16hp and been fine. Most people would want a 35 which would be a good replacement for the 4-107.
Oh, that is great! My favorite brand of deisel engine - nice and simple and super reliable. Great improvement even though I did like the simplicity of the sailboat without the engine. In reality, this was needed. -- QUESTION -- with the propeller being outside of the rudder stream, can you still dock it at slow speeds? What about "prop wash" or something like that? (I have read that you can dock sideways using a prop and rudder)
We get a little prop walk to port in reverse and a little to starboard in fwd from a dead stop. Can use to your advantage. Technique driven. Full-keel boats are notoriously difficult to steer in reverse. The FR is no different.
![UNBELIEVABLY CHEAP STEEL Ketch W/ An Interior That'll SHOCK YOU [Full Tour] Learning the Lines](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bgu9L4wreQE/mqdefault.jpg)
This was an incredibly well told story about a motor installation, and the design to have as little effect on sailing performance was pure genius. It is obvious that the story took considerable thought and effort to execute from inception to final editing. All your videos are more informative and interesting than most of the RUclips sailing vlog fare, but this is one of your best. It even inspired me to go back and read your Practical Sailor articles again. You have good honest advice on how to approach a rehab project. I am just thankful that you make it all available for free, Thank You.
What a nice comment. Thanks much. It took the longest to make by far of any video I have made. Glad you found it useful.
That is a better job than many that you would have paid BIG$ for. You also now know your system better than anyone and that is priceless in a pinch
@Snowgorilla9789. Thanks. Concur there is real value in knowing how your systems are installed and how they work. Thanks for engaging.
Wow, just wow. Amazing job.
Thanks.
I did the same upgrade on my T34C in 2011 and I am happy with my decision. After more than 1,800 hours and 20,000NM, it is still going strong. Cheers, Richard
T34C is a nice boat. S&S knew how to design great sailing boats. Good to hear you are happy with the engine. Thanks for commenting.
You sir are an expert in your craft
Kolton, thanks for the kind words.
This is just fantastic. Great work. Beautiful boat.
@@travistucker7317 Thanks for the comment. Glad you enjoyed it.
Great thought process and superbly executed. A lot of benefit without compromising your philosophy.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
Your planning and work is a joy to behold. Happy sailing sir. Beautiful
Thanks.
Fantastic job- hope to see you out here on the water.
Me too. Thanks for watching and engaging. Happy sailing.
Your videos are well thought out. You seem to answer all of my questions as the video continues. Really like the sailing also! Keep up the hard work we enjoy the effort.
Glad you enjoy them. There is more to come.
This small yacht is turning into a first class world cruiser
That's a very nice think to say! I of course agree with your keen observation!
I've done a repower, including the need for new engine stringers. I think I did a good job. I know what constitutes a good job. Yours puts mine to shame. Absolutely brilliant, perfectly executed, no shortcuts. You are a master.
Thanks. Appreciate the kind words.
My brain doesn't work like yours. Great project 🤪
You mentioned the potential future sale of the far reach as a reason for installing the engine. I just want to put it out there that I would be interested if you did decide to sell. Also, thank you for sharing so much amazing knowledge and experience. Joshua Slocum comes to mind when I think of you.
Well I am flattered. But I am no Slocum. Capt Josh is at the top of the pyramid and in a league of his own.
Re the FR, it's painful to even think that day will arrive, though eventually it must. But for now, I'm focused on our great partnership and the many tens of thousands of miles of sailing together still to come.
It will gradually get better, and the channel will be done well. Then sail full time. If the number of subscriptions exceeds 2000, there will be advertising revenue. Then electrify the whole boat (don't install if you don't like it). Our dream is to go sailing, and you are already sailing. On the other side of the world firmly supports you.
Beautiful job!
Great work! She is a beauty!
Thanks Gordon.
I am Interested in your ideas regarding electric propulsion systems. Love your channel! Educational and very helpful!
That's a great question. Thanks for asking it. Short version: Electric has limited range. The batteries are very expensive. You need 48v for any kind of power and you'll need twice that many batteries to have a reasonable sized bank. I priced out 10-15hp equivalent electric motor and a bare minimum 48v lithium bank and it cost more than the 25 HP diesel. Difficult to recharge unless you return to dock or cover your boat in solar panels. I don't like the look of all that hardware and you also have probably $2k-$5 K in just the arches to support the panels. No sun? No juice. Regeneration (free wheel prop under sail) is over hyped according to people I have talked to that have tried it. So no folding prop which means more drag and less performance under sail. Also, it's just a matter of time before all those electrons are going to be compromised in the salt water environment that is the reality for small boat off shore sailing. I'm not being critical of others who like that approach but it is not robust or reliable enough for me. That's my thinking in a nut shell. I wrote more in the PS articles or you can check the web site.
The RANGE is THE big issue. You can actually go pretty far on a charge, however, if you go slow and the water & wind are calm. I differ in my opinion from Far Reach about the reliability however. I think that the electric system is going to last way longer and be FAR more reliable than the diesel. And the battery cost should be thought of as buying your all your fuel for the next 10 years. (and weighs about as much as the engine + fuel) There are other benefits that most people don't think of as well, like adding just a little power can keep your sails full enough to keep sailing in conditions where diesel boats have to turn on the motor when the sail begin to slat in low wind.
@fiddleswithbikes You've clearly had a better experience with electronics on a boat than I have. I think electric drive sounds better in theory on cruising boat than it is in reality, though I'm sure it's getting better all the time. I know of six displacement sailboats with electric drive. None of the owners are happy. They like the motors are quiet but that's about it. Got a good friend with a big trimaran and a huge electric system and 2000 watts of solar. All installed by one of the finest boatyards. Nothing but trouble. Has spent a fortune trying to get it to work right and still not there. He seems determined to get it to work. Time will tell.
Batteries can be quite fussy about being charged. I read up and visited the boat forums when I was gathering info and the angst among boat owners about battery woes of all kinds including LiFePo4 and the heated debate and arguing about charging, conditioning, equalization, voltage, amps, inverters and how it should or should not be done was tiresome and made my eyes glaze over. A lot of people with battery issues.
I think you are right about fuel cost if you use the engine a lot like a car. I use about 10 gallons of diesel a year. Fuel cost is negligible for me. So for me and my situation there is no return on investment.
If you enjoy messing with electrons (and many people seem to) and can really spread out the solar panels then perhaps you can be happy with electric drive on a cruising boat. But you better be able to do all the work yourself or it will cost more than you think. You're not going to find any experts out at the edge of the world to trouble shoot your system.
A properly installed well maintained diesel is pretty darn reliable. Clean fuel, change the oil, lubricate the linkages. That's it. Diesels are used world wide so there are parts and mechanics out there though skills vary from great to terrible.
With more advancement in charging capabilities (I see this as the big issue for voyaging boats) and more skills by everyday people we might eventually get there.
There is no right or wrong on this just what is right or wrong for each sailor.
I owned an electric inboard Pearson 365 and I'd say the only saving grace for me on the EV was the improvement in interior smell vs the tired old diesels boats in my price range usually give. Range was a bummer. We actually still stuck a Tohatsu 6hp in an outboard motor well to make a hybrid compromise. 2 systems is pretty reliable in that way. I'd say in hindsight, either have a boat small enough that an outboard motor well alone makes sense or just go inboard diesel. 34' on a monohull is probably the cutoff between those. We actually have a catamaran with 2 outboards in wells now and that works pretty well for us. With all the real estate for solar, it will probably be a swap to 2 electric outboards one day since I'm allergic to gasoline now. As you say, no right or wrong answers here except for each sailor's situation. @@FarReachVoyages
@@GuyIncognito764 Good insights. Thanks for sharing and engaging.
You have the same prop location as I do on my Albin Vega. Works great in forward at speed, but maneuvering from a stand still and reverse can be an issue. Another thing to watch for is slings. When lifting out, they could inadvertently go under the prop.
Correct. It's not just the prop, the sling has to be forward of the rudder as well. We align the slings between the end of the cabin top and the base of the boom gallows frame.
WOW!
Knowing a bit about your sailing philosophy, I was a bit surprised to see your inboard conversion episode. It is however very well done, expecting nothing less from your usual boat building skills and knowledge. I nevertheless would like to know why you didn't go electric? It seems to me like it would have been a nicer fit to your sailing philosophy. Congrats for this very nice job! :)
Hi Daniel. It's a great question. The short version is I think electric is just too limited for what you spend. It sounds better than it is in reality. For a more detailed explanation I recommend you scroll down in the comments to the entry by @woodman1113. He, @fiddleswithbikes, and I gammed on it a bit. I more or less explained my thinking.
Others are going to feel different on this topic. That's OK.
Your work is so methodical. I am curious to see how that prop will work when berthing - as far as I know the prop should push water onto the rudder for it to be most efficient. How does it work the other way round?
You’re correct. With the prop in front of the rudder the helm is more responsive initially as water is pushed over the rudder and by initiating short blast of throttle and applying helm you can push the stern left of right…to a point. With the helm behind the rudder the boat has to start moving for water to flow over the rudder allowing it work. However, in reality I have found the helm to respond well with the boat barely moving. In theory the helm should be more responsive in reverse with the prop behind the rudder but I have not found that to be the case yet. Full keel boats are notoriously hard to steer in reverse especially with any cross wind, and the Far Reach is no different in that regard. Having sailed engineless for a long time I am used to planning ahead and avoiding situations that limit our ability to maneuver. I have not found any of these considerations to be a problem as I operate very conservatively under power.
@@FarReachVoyages yes that makes sense - with boat like ours reverse has almost no control - I berth by adjusting with forward movements- interesting i imagined your set up would have worked better in reverse - guess the underbody rules
How has the Beta 25 served you? Any regrets not getting a more powerful engine?
I'm looking into buying a Cape Dory 36 also but I'm not as much of a purist when it comes to sailing. Plus I might want to do some lengthy canal trips in Europe where I'd be battling heavy currents a lot.
Everything you want to know about the engine install can be found on our website--www.FarReachVoyages.net. Four entries in agonizing detail.
The Beta has been excellent though I don't have much use on it. I don't motor much. Plenty of power. I could have gone with a 16hp and been fine. Most people would want a 35 which would be a good replacement for the 4-107.
You two are great sailors. Also the quality of your videos are second to National Geographic. Noooo
Thanks.
Oh, that is great! My favorite brand of deisel engine - nice and simple and super reliable. Great improvement even though I did like the simplicity of the sailboat without the engine. In reality, this was needed. -- QUESTION -- with the propeller being outside of the rudder stream, can you still dock it at slow speeds? What about "prop wash" or something like that? (I have read that you can dock sideways using a prop and rudder)
We get a little prop walk to port in reverse and a little to starboard in fwd from a dead stop. Can use to your advantage. Technique driven. Full-keel boats are notoriously difficult to steer in reverse. The FR is no different.