CORRECTION: The "strip of land" I mention at 1:25 is actually not a cargo railroad; rather it was the Norfolk and Virginia Beach Railroad owned by Norfolk Southern (www.virginiaplaces.org/rail/tide.html). Thank you to @kennethschlegel870 for pointing this out!
hey uh, just wanted to let you know about the "underground" aspect. Around here if you dig more than 6 feet you hit WATER. In my opinion, we should think more elevated rail just like what we already have in between NSU and Harbor Park.
This is one of the most confusing metro areas because of how spread out and divided it is, I am glad you wrote this video to show how even a relatively low-density mess like this could still be served pretty well with transit if we would just lay the tracks! :]
Virginia has the Virginia Railway Express Commuter Train. The problem is that it only during rush hour weekdays and trains are delayed by Amtrak congestion. We need all day service in both directions
Apparently, the Manassas Line (from Alexandria to Manassas Jct) is in the process of being sold by NS to the Commonwealth, which means that when the pax-only New Long Bridge is finished, the state authority will own a continuous pax-priority track from DC Union to Manassas Jct. (In the off hours, it will still serve as a local-freight shortline for a few industrial spurs and a bridge line for NS). But they have already stated the whole goal is to allow expanded and weekend service, etc.
@@tyleralbericoI genuinely think the dream for Virginia intercity rail would be upgrading and electrifying Amtrak to extend the Acela through Richmond and into Newport News, and having that have a transfer station with a transbay rapid transit.
@@tylerkochman1007 `Extend Acela to Charlottes North Carolina via the RF& NP Line ,. theold Seaboard Airline line from Richmond to Raliegh the North Carolina Railroad fro Raleigh to Greensboro and then in the middle of I 85 to Charlotte. Needless to say the line will be electrified at 25KV60HZ Alternating current.uth of Washington Union Station.
Extend Acela to Charlottes North Carolina via the RF& NP Line . the old Seaboard Airline line from Richmond to Raliegh and the North Carolina Railroad fro Raleigh to Greensboro and then in the middle of I 85 to Charlotte. Needless to say, the line will be electrified at 25KV60HZ Alternating current. south of Washington Union Station.
as a prior service member, 5AM opening time might not be quite early enough to reliably service military members who often need to travel into work very early for company PT - M-F opening early at 4:30 with a special early scheduled military shuttle train could be really cool and would likely do a lot for the perception of reliability. Military members (specifically Army from experience) are notorious for being super attached to their personal vehicles - it'll take some serious shows of good faith at the reliability of the system to keep them riding. Other than that this sounds seriously awesome
I find it funny that of the two planned/in-planning extensions of the Tide is the line to Chesapeake through the Connecting Chesapeake Study. It is a competition between light rail and BRT for the final project but it would be funny if Chesapeake ended up getting rail before Virginia Beach.
As a Norfolk resident, I couldn't agree more. Having the buses or light rail serve the airport would greatly benefit not only us, but people flying into Norfolk Airport as well.
I don't know if it's been studied here but I remember from when I lived in Raleigh in the mid-2010s that Triangle Transit Authority studied including rail service to RDU and found that it was likely to be underutilized and a bad cost to ridership proposition early in the system's development. From a community meeting about it I remember that the data showed that it only made sense if it was a hub airport.
Great idea, the US needs to master building light automated regional metros for it's sprawling cities, and high salaries. Other systems could be built in The Research Triangle, Heuston, and Las Vegas.
I graduated with a civil engineering degree from UC Berkeley Dec 2023, in Jan 2024 I decided to try out traffic engineering and retiming of signals for a private firm in Virginia Beach. Not only did I miss using the BART system, I realized I am applying band aid solutions for a poorly planned region. Repairing my morale by coming back west (debating Seattle or Bay Area) where there's a growing momentum for transit oriented development and light rail extensions!
For a more in reach transit project look into the campaign for a Amtrak station in Suffolk. There is an existing rail station from ye olden days and a recent route change from the 2010s that connected Norfolk up to the North East Corridor.
Give this young man his Grammy! Virginia needs this and needs this now. The idea of continuing to destroy our green space for additional automobiles will not reduce the peninsula in Hampton Roads traffic. Build light rail and build HSR
The amount of tunneling you've proposed is going to be a geotechnical nightmare given the shallow water table, poorly consolidated sediments, large tidal range, deep bedrock, and complex subsurface structural geology. Keep the alignment but run everything at-grade with signal priority aside from the requisitioned crossing of the James, and you've got something good.
@@tyleralberico worth considering: the Chicago CTA Blue Line runs about the same length in about the same amount of time as the Phoenix Valley Metro Light Rail. Grade separation doesn't necessarily guarantee you faster speeds.
As you probably know, the original NS provided passenger service along its south route from Norfolk to the Virginia Beach oceanfront. The line continued along the oceanfront to Fort Story and returned to Norfolk along its northern route. Passenger service operations ceased in 1947 due to continued competition from cars on Virginia Beach Blvd.
I really like the concept. I was extremely disappointed when they mentioned widening the HRBT without provision for a rail connection. My only concern would be building anything underground on the southside as the water table is way too low and the area is notorious for massive flooding.
If the new tunnels are only one express lane each, which would be idiotic, therefore likely, then we can fit a train in there. I mean, it's idiotic that the new tunnels will be express lanes anyway, "let's make all this effort to alleviate traffic, then shit the bed at the end to make it so less people use the new tunnels, just like we did with the high rise bridge"
@@fryncyaryorvjink2140it's because the state allowed private firms to dictate terms on those projects, both of which arguably leave non-toll-payers worse off
As a German, we don't even know the exact meaning of S-Bahn ourselves. It is traditional mainline rail but upgraded to 30 to 10 minute frequencies, mostly wheelchair accessible but in comparison to other commuter rail systems like the Paris RER, has quite dense stop spacing and especially in Berlin, where the original S-Bahn is from, is comparable to a metro system. Often thats why Berlin isn't considered to be the quintessential S-Bahn System because it is so Metro like. The quintessential S-Bahn System in my opinion is Munich. It has tolling stock closely related to mainline units, and shares track with regional trains in many sections. What I'm trying to say is that yeah, you're right, you don't really know what an S-Bahn is.
@@tyleralberico It‘s less confusing if you view it as the gradual degradation of a service type over time. The first S-Bahn systems were Berlin and Hamburg. They were high-frequency urban and suburban rail systems running on third rail and featuring many things we would today consider metro-like. Then, in 1960s West Germany the second generation of S-Bahn systems went ahead with further reach out into neighbouring towns, bigger trains following main-line specifications, track-sharing with regional and long-distance trains and lower per-line-frequency compared to Berlin and Hamburg. These are Munich, Stuttgart, Rhine-Main (Frankfurt), Cologne and Rhine-Ruhr. And then since the 90s there‘s been a third wave of S-Bahn systems, which imo often don‘t even deserve the title, because they largely are just rebranded regional trains. These systems are often centred around cities that are really too small to support an urban S-Bahn system and so they run far out of their central cities into the countryside or to other cities. Line frequencies are often only every 30-60 minutes and rolling stock is often no different than regional rail stock. They also feature little dedicated track, sharing most routes with other types of trains. Such systems include Hannover, Rhine-Neckar and Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany).
Fantastic proposal. I would love to see passenger rail take off in Virginia. I have been keeping up with multiple projects going on like the VPRA track projects, VRE station improvements, and the S-Line. I've even had some concepts of my own but none as thought-out, detailed, and ambitious as this, though I do have some concepts such as a commuter rail extension south to Richmond and east to Hampton Roads that I wish to explore. I'm just not too great with knowing timetables and working with freight traffic.
@ The sheer price and number of projects within that group won’t make it a fast process, but there’s no going back with the Long Bridge finally underway, and soon the Alexandria fourth track and some station upgrades from VRE.
Having grown up in Hampton Roads, I cannot express to you how much adequate commuter/passenger rail would improve the connectivity of the region. We desperately need to get cars off the roads. Making a trip to Ghent or downtown Norfolk shouldn't require me to DRIVE 45+ minutes then make that same return leg after enjoying the most city-like part of the region
This is a fantastic proposal! I wonder now about the phasing. I imagine that the peninsula and Norfolk systems could be built independently leaving the James River crossing as the final (expensive) piece. Also, HRT needs to spam Transit Oriented Development at every existing (and planned) station. Lastly, of all the light rail systems in the US, the Tide is actually a great candidate/testbed for automated technology given its short length and mostly protected right of way. Car companies have been working on self-driving cars to some success so surely automated light rail with its fixed guideway is an easier engineering challenge.
The automated system is already possible, actually! You’ll find similar ones in Vancouver, Montreal, Detroit, and a few other places in North America. I think it’s much more common internationally though.
@ true!!! But I meant surface running/slightly mixed traffic automated systems! Those other systems rely on complete grade separation which enables high speed and frequency. You probably couldn’t greatly increase the speed, but you could certainly improve frequencies without exploding labor costs by automating the existing Tide, no further grade separations needed! Definitely a long shot, but interesting to consider!!
Love this video! I had a similar idea of using BART-style rail to link up the Hampton Roads region using several lines, but yours is much more well thought-out, using census data and employment centres as the foundation for an alignment. And the production quality is stunning: looking forward to seeing more content like this in the future
I really like this idea. It really solves the question of connecting Newport News and Norfolk in a much better way. And it’s especially helpful to tourists who would love to visit all boroughs (pardon me for saying that 😅) of Hampton Roads.
I would have loved to see how successful the line would be if it were fully built out, but I’m not entirely convinced it would have been the most effective thing in the world. Thanks for watching!
My home area and thanks for representing it. I really wished that Virginia Beach passed that referendum in 2016. Suffolk Transit was a part of HRT but the city pulled out in late 2011. I really hope that The Tide ends up extending one day. (Give my hometown Portsmouth something too)🐧
El Paso runs a 4.8 mile line using totally rebuilt PCC streetcars saved from a car line that closed in 1974. Oceanside has a diesel light rail to Escondido. Sup with Cleveland? It has the Airport Windermere line, the Shaker Heights lines going back to World War l and a waterfront line that's only run on special occasions like parades and fireworks. How to get rail service for Suffolk: add it as a stop for Amtrak's Norfolk regional trains.
I don’t know tons about this region (yet) but I love the CBART branding. I’d also be down for a follow up video on what additional lines in this system would look like.
The funny thing is when you said this at 2:35, I was midway through typing the comment “they need BART East”. I am so happy that the video went exactly where I hoped it would, and used the same point of reference I would have used! I have been of this mind for several years. A trans-bay rapid transit system like BART would be great for this area’s needs and geography
as a north carolinian whos family is from the hampton roads i think this is a briliant idea also to add i think there should be a partnership between nc va and sc to create a proper public transit oriented system back in model for the US
Great video! Don’t know if you are interested in more hypothetical transit systems but I think a great one to look into doing would be a South Carolina commuter rail line and a Greenville Spartanburg Anderson metro system!
What you'd also probably want to do is retool or add bus routes to focus on shuttling folks from the existing (fairly low density) housing areas to the closest CBART station. Something to do with those little Suffolk Transit buses :D Long term bus service like that gets expensive, all those drivers to keep paying and all those buses to maintain and then to replace -- but it's relatively cheap upfront and helps with the last (couple) mile problem between the existing low density housing and the proposed new high capacity rail line. (Later one they can look at whether it makes sense to convert some of them to something other than bus lines)
CBART is a phenomenal idea (and that logo is amazing)! I definitely think something like this would be highly beneficial to the region. An elevated line to Naval Station Norfolk makes sense: running trains at ground level or underground here would be disastrous for the same reason they won’t consider a Tide extension in that direction: flooding. Also the late night and early morning hours are good for the Newport News shipyard. And it is, in theory, not too late to reclaim those new I-64 tunnels for trains. The thing is, other than the difficulties that will always be associated with political will and funding, nothing about this route is that unreasonable. All in all, I think Hampton Roads will get regional ferries before any regional rail is seriously considered. And ferries would be a great addition to the region… but it’s an issue of journey time and capacity. Ferries every 4 minutes is never gonna happen. Trains every 4 minutes? Totally doable. I look forward to a day where we’ll have an alternative to the 961 between Newport News and Norfolk. Hampton Roads needs CBART!
@ My idea is certainly less ambitious than yours! Let’s just say that your proposal is to the Canada Line and BART as mine is to the Norristown High-Speed Line!
You miss the northward extension on the peninsula. Largely following the CSX right away you could connect NN/Williamsburg Airport to upper Newport news and Williamsburg and extend on to Richmond Airport. Once across Hampton Roads Harbor, direct commuter connection to DC can be achieved.
That’s fair, but I wanted to serve commercial and residential destinations closer than that railway can. It’s still a little bit of a hike to get there on foot from Warwick or Jefferson
I’m hoping the Commonwealth Corridor plan using the Buckingham Branch actually goes somewhere. I speak for many along that line when I say we need rail transport back. We haven’t been able to take a train on this line since 1976.
As a local from Virginia Beach, I wouldn’t mind an S-Bahn like system but local connectors would be super useful if not more useful, a large early 20th century streetcar system would work so excellently here but would never be realistically implemented.
If CBART is going to be a S-bahn type system with lower stop density, then you should try to share right-of-way as much as possible, rather than build it on a viaduct or tunnels along boulevards which will be more expensive. You’re not stopping to serve most of those businesses on the major avenues anyways, so why pass near them? I’d say the line should follow Fort Eustis Blvd east, then turn south and follow the CSX line to downtown, diverting briefly to serve City Center, then swinging back to serve Riverside hospital and Hilton village, which are right by the tracks anyways. Having CSX rip up a yard track or two so you can put in a CBART viaduct (or even converting some tracks to metro running) would also carry you almost into downtown Newport News without needing a tunnel, further reducing cost. You could even make the downtown NN station a stub-end terminal without impacting transit speed if the system is automated, further reducing cost. I would also recommend using the CSX RoW from their yard in Newport News to the cement plant near the I-64/-664 interchange. Again you avoid having to build in dense areas, but the main benefit here is it carries the line closer to the Coliseum, and that shopping area across Mercury Blvd from it. A direct connection probably isn’t worth it (especially since that’s all marsh), but if you have a stop around where Armistead and Pembrooke intersect, then a feeder bus line could provide that connection to the Coliseum area while CBART swings south to serve Hampton downtown. On the Norfolk side, you can already serve the stadium, Amtrak station, and NSU quite well from the existing Tide alignment, so rather than building a new route it’d probably be better to reuse this and improve local walkability. A diversion to Military Circle would definitely be needed, but you can swing back to the planned Tide alignment after that - it passes right through downtown VA Beach, runs past the edge of NAS Oceana, and ends around the middle of the boardwalk area. As cool as it sounds, I don’t think running along the oceanfront is worth the investment over a more centrally-located station, especially since you’d have to make that a tunnel section. Overall I think the concept is sound, but the problem with getting transit built in the US isn’t the soundness of the concept - it’s that we keep bungling the execution. So we need to be thinking about how to do it better at the planning/concept stages.
Something that can suck about light rail is that it federal funding is involved (and it almost always is) then the places that make so much sense for stops, like hospitals and universities, have to approve of the plans and the administration can sabotage it at the 11th hour. That's why the Durham Orange Light Rail Transit failed - after years of planning and even rerouting to serve two hospital systems, the VA and Duke, at Duke University's request, and with the deadline weeks away (too late to come up with a new route) Duke opposed, claiming the route by the hospitals would cause EMF interference with hospital equipment. Many who lived in the region at the time (and myself, as someone who had recently moved away) felt that it was an intentional move by the university because the trustees, president, etc., didn't want light rail at all.
I want to add on an idea to future extend the system once it's built. If we're using the HRBT as a rail connection across the bay, we should use it for heavy passenger rail too. We should take the existing 2 Northeast Corridor routes to Newport News and Norfolk and use the tunnel to link them together into a dedicated 2-way orbital loop line between Norfolk and Richmond!!! By connecting the two existing lines together in a loop, it would much better connect the Hampton Roads and Richmond metro areas through both regular, 20 minute interval express service up the mainland between Norfolk, Petersburg, and Richmond Staples Mill on one route, while also providing regular, 20 minute interval local trains up Hampton Road's main population corridor between Norfolk, Hampton, Newport News, PHF Airport, Williamsburg, RIC Airport, and Richmond Downtown station. Being that it's heavy rail, it would also significantly boost capacity across the bay during rush hour since it operates on similar route as the CBART trains. And since both lines through run and stop at Staples Mill Station, the loop would also act as a pair of major branch lines connecting Hampton Roads to Amtrak's proposed Southeast Corridor and extended Northeast Corridor networks (both of which are set to bring high speed rail to Richmond too)!
One major issue I see with your proposed route is the service to the air station in Virginia beach. with your routing on the north side of the base, there is nothing it will serve. It will need to dip south to the southern side of the air station to serve any use for the military in that part of the city.
Its terrifying that i became such a transit nerd that even a small video from a random region in the US (not even my continent) appears on my RUclips Page Nice video though 😂
I fully support CBART! People deserve more options to get around, as more people buy cars and make highway traffic busier. Even more so, when there is an accident or construction.
Interesting proposal. I live in Fredericksburg and VRE is what we have. Whenever you talk about light or high-speed rail the NIMBY signs appear. Do you know Ray Delahanty of the CityNetd channel? He would champion this.
I think that with the proposed line being as street running as it is that a BRT system would be better, we definitely have some roads that could give up their lanes. and a minor nitpick but that "old cargo railroad right of way" was the the rail line that literally built Virginia beach and carrier passengers to and from VB including up and down current day pacific ave and to ft story and shore drive from the 1890s up until 1948.
@@kennethschlegel870 thank you for pointing that out! I’ll leave a pinned comment. My intent for the line is to actually not have any street running sections! All of it will either be elevated, tunneled, or at-grade but not sharing land.
I'd be better off having a rail by the Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge-Tunnel so it'll be much better connected than the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel because the VDOT already not included the railway in their expansion plans.
Funny i came across this video after reading about the scrapped extension of the tide to VB last night. Good proposal overall, however I'd suggest realigning the hampton portion to serve colliseum central, which is incidentally where i live. I also have concerns regarding the overall length of the line, which might make the total run time prohibitive. I can think of two additional lines that could be added right now that could account for areas not mentioned in this video. For what it's worth though, it's a great foundation
Rather than trying to cross parallel to the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel, how about having the system follow Route 17? It would cross the James River parallel to the James River Bridge, pass through Carrollton, Suffolk, and Portsmouth, cross the Elizabeth River southern branch on a bridge south of the Naval Shipyard, cross the Elizabeth River eastern branch parallel to the existing railroad bridges, and then connect to the existing light rail line near Harbor Park. You aren't going to get agreement to convert vehicle traffic lanes on the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel, and building a tunnel specifically for light rail would be cost prohibitive. A lifting rail bridge alongside the James River Bridge would be much more viable. The system should be planned with branches that reach Fort Eustis, downtown Hampton, Chesapeake Greenbrier area, Virginia Beach city center, and the Naval Base.
This is intriguing, but the cost may be too massive. Why not extend the Tide's planned route to the waterfront and run north--south shuttle buses to off route destinations in Norfolk and Virginia Beach?
As much as that may better serve those who are already open to transit or exclusively rely on it (on top of being far more realistic), I feel the best way to convince those who don’t consider transit as a legitimate way to get around is with service that’s extremely high quality. It’ll be expensive, but I’m confident something of this caliber would seriously change public attitudes towards transit. The 757 Express buses serve this purpose already, and while they’ve seen relative success, I don’t think they’ll get a massive amount of people off the road. Thanks for watching!
There is no such thing as an "S-Bahn"-like train service anywhere in the US, so thinking it could work here is a bit *optimistic* to say the least ;) Just as a comparison: My local S-Bahn station has a ridership of almost 30k PER DAY or roughly 10 million a year. And that's just one of many stations in the network. The entire S-Bahn network has a *daily* ridership of almost half a million. And my daily commute of 25 km is quicker on the S-Bahn than driving and takes less than half an hour. So yeah, a CBART would be fun, but it wouldn't be an S-Bahn.
My only point is to elevate, elevate, elevate. Rapid transit needs to be grade seperated, tunneling is undoably expensive in most places and on this ugly, wide stroads that populatate Hampton roads more than a few of these tunnel sections can be easily elevated instead and save billions.
@@tyleralberico I understand the sentiment, yet nimbys will nimby and fight something this ambitious regardless. Making the project billions cheaper is in my opinion the best way to counter nimbys and increase the chance of getting the project done. Also note the overwhelming usage of viaducts and existing right of ways on the model system, BART. And thank you for promoting better transportation in Hampton Roads
It would have automated trains, but street running? That's not really a thing. Also a key feature of an s-bahn is subway/commuter rail travel times, not light rail travel times. You can't run 60mph down a stroad. Just not possible.
@@tyleralberico In a center reservation? You can't run automated trains on a center or side reservation either, with current technology. I assumed the downtown+suburban portions were in a cut and cover tunnel until 3/4 of the way into the video
CORRECTION: The "strip of land" I mention at 1:25 is actually not a cargo railroad; rather it was the Norfolk and Virginia Beach Railroad owned by Norfolk Southern (www.virginiaplaces.org/rail/tide.html). Thank you to @kennethschlegel870 for pointing this out!
hey uh, just wanted to let you know about the "underground" aspect. Around here if you dig more than 6 feet you hit WATER. In my opinion, we should think more elevated rail just like what we already have in between NSU and Harbor Park.
@ yeah this is a valid concern that I completely ignored due to my ignorance of water tables
Even just getting amtrak through that tunnel to connect the stations at Newport News and Norfolk would be amazing.
This is one of the most confusing metro areas because of how spread out and divided it is, I am glad you wrote this video to show how even a relatively low-density mess like this could still be served pretty well with transit if we would just lay the tracks! :]
CBART revolution
Virginia has the Virginia Railway Express Commuter Train. The problem is that it only during rush hour weekdays and trains are delayed by Amtrak congestion. We need all day service in both directions
I agree! Hopefully all the proposed track improvements along the NEC in Virginia get underway soon
Apparently, the Manassas Line (from Alexandria to Manassas Jct) is in the process of being sold by NS to the Commonwealth, which means that when the pax-only New Long Bridge is finished, the state authority will own a continuous pax-priority track from DC Union to Manassas Jct. (In the off hours, it will still serve as a local-freight shortline for a few industrial spurs and a bridge line for NS). But they have already stated the whole goal is to allow expanded and weekend service, etc.
@@tyleralbericoI genuinely think the dream for Virginia intercity rail would be upgrading and electrifying Amtrak to extend the Acela through Richmond and into Newport News, and having that have a transfer station with a transbay rapid transit.
@@tylerkochman1007 `Extend Acela to Charlottes North Carolina via the RF& NP Line ,. theold Seaboard Airline line from Richmond to Raliegh the North Carolina Railroad fro Raleigh to Greensboro and then in the middle of I 85 to Charlotte. Needless to say the line will be electrified at 25KV60HZ Alternating current.uth of Washington Union Station.
Extend Acela to Charlottes North Carolina via the RF& NP Line . the old Seaboard Airline line from Richmond to Raliegh and the North Carolina Railroad fro Raleigh to Greensboro and then in the middle of I 85 to Charlotte. Needless to say, the line will be electrified at 25KV60HZ Alternating current. south of Washington Union Station.
as a prior service member, 5AM opening time might not be quite early enough to reliably service military members who often need to travel into work very early for company PT - M-F opening early at 4:30 with a special early scheduled military shuttle train could be really cool and would likely do a lot for the perception of reliability. Military members (specifically Army from experience) are notorious for being super attached to their personal vehicles - it'll take some serious shows of good faith at the reliability of the system to keep them riding. Other than that this sounds seriously awesome
I appreciate your perspective, and thank you for your service! Thanks for watching
@@tyleralberico Definitely subbed too, great breakdown of a cool idea for a line. Thank you!
I find it funny that of the two planned/in-planning extensions of the Tide is the line to Chesapeake through the Connecting Chesapeake Study. It is a competition between light rail and BRT for the final project but it would be funny if Chesapeake ended up getting rail before Virginia Beach.
Wonderful video glad to hear Hampton Roads in the conversation!
It’s such an important area that rarely gets the attention it deserves!
I would also include some branch lines to the two international airports around Norfolk and a branch into Portsmouth.
Me too!
As a Norfolk resident, I couldn't agree more. Having the buses or light rail serve the airport would greatly benefit not only us, but people flying into Norfolk Airport as well.
I don't know if it's been studied here but I remember from when I lived in Raleigh in the mid-2010s that Triangle Transit Authority studied including rail service to RDU and found that it was likely to be underutilized and a bad cost to ridership proposition early in the system's development. From a community meeting about it I remember that the data showed that it only made sense if it was a hub airport.
Great idea, the US needs to master building light automated regional metros for it's sprawling cities, and high salaries. Other systems could be built in The Research Triangle, Heuston, and Las Vegas.
I graduated with a civil engineering degree from UC Berkeley Dec 2023, in Jan 2024 I decided to try out traffic engineering and retiming of signals for a private firm in Virginia Beach. Not only did I miss using the BART system, I realized I am applying band aid solutions for a poorly planned region. Repairing my morale by coming back west (debating Seattle or Bay Area) where there's a growing momentum for transit oriented development and light rail extensions!
I work for an engineering firm too… but in marketing, not engineering
Yeah Hampton Roads is a basket case 😑 Poorly-planned actually undersells it, more like no planning.
No cooperation between cities
For a more in reach transit project look into the campaign for a Amtrak station in Suffolk. There is an existing rail station from ye olden days and a recent route change from the 2010s that connected Norfolk up to the North East Corridor.
Give this young man his Grammy!
Virginia needs this and needs this now.
The idea of continuing to destroy our green space for additional automobiles will not reduce the peninsula in Hampton Roads traffic. Build light rail and build HSR
Thank you!
The amount of tunneling you've proposed is going to be a geotechnical nightmare given the shallow water table, poorly consolidated sediments, large tidal range, deep bedrock, and complex subsurface structural geology. Keep the alignment but run everything at-grade with signal priority aside from the requisitioned crossing of the James, and you've got something good.
Yeah, I didn’t know enough about water tables when I thought of this… I’m thinking elevated instead of at-grade to keep up speeds.
@@tyleralberico worth considering: the Chicago CTA Blue Line runs about the same length in about the same amount of time as the Phoenix Valley Metro Light Rail. Grade separation doesn't necessarily guarantee you faster speeds.
As you probably know, the original NS provided passenger service along its south route from Norfolk to the Virginia Beach oceanfront. The line continued along the oceanfront to Fort Story and returned to Norfolk along its northern route. Passenger service operations ceased in 1947 due to continued competition from cars on Virginia Beach Blvd.
I really like the concept. I was extremely disappointed when they mentioned widening the HRBT without provision for a rail connection. My only concern would be building anything underground on the southside as the water table is way too low and the area is notorious for massive flooding.
Thank you! Honestly… I didn’t know enough about water tables to consider that, but it’s a valid concern.
If the new tunnels are only one express lane each, which would be idiotic, therefore likely, then we can fit a train in there. I mean, it's idiotic that the new tunnels will be express lanes anyway, "let's make all this effort to alleviate traffic, then shit the bed at the end to make it so less people use the new tunnels, just like we did with the high rise bridge"
@@fryncyaryorvjink2140it's because the state allowed private firms to dictate terms on those projects, both of which arguably leave non-toll-payers worse off
As a German, we don't even know the exact meaning of S-Bahn ourselves.
It is traditional mainline rail but upgraded to 30 to 10 minute frequencies, mostly wheelchair accessible but in comparison to other commuter rail systems like the Paris RER, has quite dense stop spacing and especially in Berlin, where the original S-Bahn is from, is comparable to a metro system. Often thats why Berlin isn't considered to be the quintessential S-Bahn System because it is so Metro like.
The quintessential S-Bahn System in my opinion is Munich. It has tolling stock closely related to mainline units, and shares track with regional trains in many sections.
What I'm trying to say is that yeah, you're right, you don't really know what an S-Bahn is.
That sounds… confusing! Thank you for explaining
@@tyleralberico It‘s less confusing if you view it as the gradual degradation of a service type over time.
The first S-Bahn systems were Berlin and Hamburg. They were high-frequency urban and suburban rail systems running on third rail and featuring many things we would today consider metro-like.
Then, in 1960s West Germany the second generation of S-Bahn systems went ahead with further reach out into neighbouring towns, bigger trains following main-line specifications, track-sharing with regional and long-distance trains and lower per-line-frequency compared to Berlin and Hamburg. These are Munich, Stuttgart, Rhine-Main (Frankfurt), Cologne and Rhine-Ruhr.
And then since the 90s there‘s been a third wave of S-Bahn systems, which imo often don‘t even deserve the title, because they largely are just rebranded regional trains. These systems are often centred around cities that are really too small to support an urban S-Bahn system and so they run far out of their central cities into the countryside or to other cities. Line frequencies are often only every 30-60 minutes and rolling stock is often no different than regional rail stock. They also feature little dedicated track, sharing most routes with other types of trains. Such systems include Hannover, Rhine-Neckar and Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany).
I couldn't agree more, I live in Norfolk, and I would love to take the tide anywhere and everywhere!
Fantastic proposal. I would love to see passenger rail take off in Virginia. I have been keeping up with multiple projects going on like the VPRA track projects, VRE station improvements, and the S-Line. I've even had some concepts of my own but none as thought-out, detailed, and ambitious as this, though I do have some concepts such as a commuter rail extension south to Richmond and east to Hampton Roads that I wish to explore. I'm just not too great with knowing timetables and working with freight traffic.
Thank you! I just hope transforming rail in Virginia happens… a lot faster than it has so far
@ The sheer price and number of projects within that group won’t make it a fast process, but there’s no going back with the Long Bridge finally underway, and soon the Alexandria fourth track and some station upgrades from VRE.
Having grown up in Hampton Roads, I cannot express to you how much adequate commuter/passenger rail would improve the connectivity of the region. We desperately need to get cars off the roads. Making a trip to Ghent or downtown Norfolk shouldn't require me to DRIVE 45+ minutes then make that same return leg after enjoying the most city-like part of the region
I was only there for a few years, but I completely agree!
hey man, ingleside's a great neighborhood! i love public transportation so its always great to ride the Tide!
I don’t have a problem with the neighborhood, but the Tide would definitely see more riders if it ran to neighborhoods with a lot more people in it
I was stationed there when they were building it. VA beach fought tooth and nail to prevent it from terminating there.
I agree with your thinking. So happy I found your channel! Thank you so much for posting your transit videos!
Thank you for watching!
@tyleralberico You're welcome! 🤗
I love this idea. Combine this with frequent intercity trains to Williamsburg and Richmond, and it's perfect!
This is a fantastic proposal! I wonder now about the phasing. I imagine that the peninsula and Norfolk systems could be built independently leaving the James River crossing as the final (expensive) piece. Also, HRT needs to spam Transit Oriented Development at every existing (and planned) station.
Lastly, of all the light rail systems in the US, the Tide is actually a great candidate/testbed for automated technology given its short length and mostly protected right of way. Car companies have been working on self-driving cars to some success so surely automated light rail with its fixed guideway is an easier engineering challenge.
The automated system is already possible, actually! You’ll find similar ones in Vancouver, Montreal, Detroit, and a few other places in North America. I think it’s much more common internationally though.
@ true!!! But I meant surface running/slightly mixed traffic automated systems! Those other systems rely on complete grade separation which enables high speed and frequency. You probably couldn’t greatly increase the speed, but you could certainly improve frequencies without exploding labor costs by automating the existing Tide, no further grade separations needed! Definitely a long shot, but interesting to consider!!
Ohhhh I see, that makes sense!
Remove the crossings
@@Whatneeds2bsaidget rid of the mixed traffic segments
Commenting for the algorithm, thanks for your work
Thank you for watching!
Love this video! I had a similar idea of using BART-style rail to link up the Hampton Roads region using several lines, but yours is much more well thought-out, using census data and employment centres as the foundation for an alignment. And the production quality is stunning: looking forward to seeing more content like this in the future
Thank you!
I really like this idea. It really solves the question of connecting Newport News and Norfolk in a much better way. And it’s especially helpful to tourists who would love to visit all boroughs (pardon me for saying that 😅) of Hampton Roads.
Just tell them to look away when they see the coal pile
NIMBY’s never should have been ALLOWED to vote the VB extension down…
I would have loved to see how successful the line would be if it were fully built out, but I’m not entirely convinced it would have been the most effective thing in the world. Thanks for watching!
My home area and thanks for representing it. I really wished that Virginia Beach passed that referendum in 2016.
Suffolk Transit was a part of HRT but the city pulled out in late 2011. I really hope that The Tide ends up extending one day.
(Give my hometown Portsmouth something too)🐧
Oh wow, I didn’t know that! Why does their logo look so… old then?
El Paso runs a 4.8 mile line using totally rebuilt PCC streetcars saved from a car line that closed in 1974.
Oceanside has a diesel light rail to Escondido.
Sup with Cleveland? It has the Airport Windermere line, the Shaker Heights lines going back to World War l and a waterfront line that's only run on special occasions like parades and fireworks.
How to get rail service for Suffolk: add it as a stop for Amtrak's Norfolk regional trains.
the CBART logo implies a three-bore Transbay Tube!
100 trains an hour
A 7 city metro region of +2.6million population and no commuter transit never made sense to me. The 2nd line could connect RVA to fort eustis
An outstanding video once again! I would do anything to get something like this for the Hampton roads.
Thank you!
I don’t know tons about this region (yet) but I love the CBART branding. I’d also be down for a follow up video on what additional lines in this system would look like.
Thank you! I’ll keep that in mind in the future
I like your methodology!
Thank you!
The funny thing is when you said this at 2:35, I was midway through typing the comment “they need BART East”.
I am so happy that the video went exactly where I hoped it would, and used the same point of reference I would have used!
I have been of this mind for several years. A trans-bay rapid transit system like BART would be great for this area’s needs and geography
BART East 🤝 CBART
Didnt the family that controls Virginia Beach refer to this train as the “Soul Train?” Heard about this from a mover/shaker from Norfolk.
I haven’t heard of it!
That and worse. Don't let the pretty paint and sand fool you, a lot of VB (voters) are racist as hell
this video has reminded me that theres an entire state outside of northern virginia
This was me before I went to CNU
This was me before I went to CNU
To be fair, we don't really think about you guys either. We barely think about Richmond, or even Portsmouth who is one of us! Lol
It didn't need light rail! It has a very involved bus system. Just run it at longer times for more routes.
as a north carolinian whos family is from the hampton roads i think this is a briliant idea also to add i think there should be a partnership between nc va and sc to create a proper public transit oriented system back in model for the US
@@xaaviaudreek4859 thank you!
Virginia deserves better transit!
Tell em 🗣️
Great video! Don’t know if you are interested in more hypothetical transit systems but I think a great one to look into doing would be a South Carolina commuter rail line and a Greenville Spartanburg Anderson metro system!
Thanks for the idea!
What you'd also probably want to do is retool or add bus routes to focus on shuttling folks from the existing (fairly low density) housing areas to the closest CBART station. Something to do with those little Suffolk Transit buses :D
Long term bus service like that gets expensive, all those drivers to keep paying and all those buses to maintain and then to replace -- but it's relatively cheap upfront and helps with the last (couple) mile problem between the existing low density housing and the proposed new high capacity rail line. (Later one they can look at whether it makes sense to convert some of them to something other than bus lines)
I totally agree!
CBART is a phenomenal idea (and that logo is amazing)! I definitely think something like this would be highly beneficial to the region. An elevated line to Naval Station Norfolk makes sense: running trains at ground level or underground here would be disastrous for the same reason they won’t consider a Tide extension in that direction: flooding. Also the late night and early morning hours are good for the Newport News shipyard.
And it is, in theory, not too late to reclaim those new I-64 tunnels for trains. The thing is, other than the difficulties that will always be associated with political will and funding, nothing about this route is that unreasonable.
All in all, I think Hampton Roads will get regional ferries before any regional rail is seriously considered. And ferries would be a great addition to the region… but it’s an issue of journey time and capacity. Ferries every 4 minutes is never gonna happen. Trains every 4 minutes? Totally doable.
I look forward to a day where we’ll have an alternative to the 961 between Newport News and Norfolk. Hampton Roads needs CBART!
Thank you so much! I'm excited to see your take on this
@ My idea is certainly less ambitious than yours! Let’s just say that your proposal is to the Canada Line and BART as mine is to the Norristown High-Speed Line!
Underground train at the oceanfront? Yeah good luck with that.
You miss the northward extension on the peninsula. Largely following the CSX right away you could connect NN/Williamsburg Airport to upper Newport news and Williamsburg and extend on to Richmond Airport. Once across Hampton Roads Harbor, direct commuter connection to DC can be achieved.
That’s fair, but I wanted to serve commercial and residential destinations closer than that railway can. It’s still a little bit of a hike to get there on foot from Warwick or Jefferson
I’m hoping the Commonwealth Corridor plan using the Buckingham Branch actually goes somewhere. I speak for many along that line when I say we need rail transport back. We haven’t been able to take a train on this line since 1976.
What's funny is that the people who keep on voting down expanding the Tide are the same people who keep on complaining that it's not turning a profit.
Skytrain like Vancouver is the way to go. Automation system that doesn't require drivers. That doesn't interfere with traffic below.
As a local from Virginia Beach, I wouldn’t mind an S-Bahn like system but local connectors would be super useful if not more useful, a large early 20th century streetcar system would work so excellently here but would never be realistically implemented.
i live in virginia and VRE, Amtraks get delayed all the time because NS keeps breaking down
Take a look at the scale of the Lausanne metro for inspiration
If CBART is going to be a S-bahn type system with lower stop density, then you should try to share right-of-way as much as possible, rather than build it on a viaduct or tunnels along boulevards which will be more expensive. You’re not stopping to serve most of those businesses on the major avenues anyways, so why pass near them?
I’d say the line should follow Fort Eustis Blvd east, then turn south and follow the CSX line to downtown, diverting briefly to serve City Center, then swinging back to serve Riverside hospital and Hilton village, which are right by the tracks anyways. Having CSX rip up a yard track or two so you can put in a CBART viaduct (or even converting some tracks to metro running) would also carry you almost into downtown Newport News without needing a tunnel, further reducing cost. You could even make the downtown NN station a stub-end terminal without impacting transit speed if the system is automated, further reducing cost.
I would also recommend using the CSX RoW from their yard in Newport News to the cement plant near the I-64/-664 interchange. Again you avoid having to build in dense areas, but the main benefit here is it carries the line closer to the Coliseum, and that shopping area across Mercury Blvd from it. A direct connection probably isn’t worth it (especially since that’s all marsh), but if you have a stop around where Armistead and Pembrooke intersect, then a feeder bus line could provide that connection to the Coliseum area while CBART swings south to serve Hampton downtown.
On the Norfolk side, you can already serve the stadium, Amtrak station, and NSU quite well from the existing Tide alignment, so rather than building a new route it’d probably be better to reuse this and improve local walkability. A diversion to Military Circle would definitely be needed, but you can swing back to the planned Tide alignment after that - it passes right through downtown VA Beach, runs past the edge of NAS Oceana, and ends around the middle of the boardwalk area. As cool as it sounds, I don’t think running along the oceanfront is worth the investment over a more centrally-located station, especially since you’d have to make that a tunnel section.
Overall I think the concept is sound, but the problem with getting transit built in the US isn’t the soundness of the concept - it’s that we keep bungling the execution. So we need to be thinking about how to do it better at the planning/concept stages.
Thank you for your feedback!
I went to school at Tidewater Community College there and the tide is not that bad to be honest. if it were longer, it would be pretty good
great video, explained the context real well and 10/10 for cbart naming creativity 🤡
Omg… I’m honored you watched my video!! Thank you!
@@tyleralberico haha no need to be honoured, keep up the great work :)
Something that can suck about light rail is that it federal funding is involved (and it almost always is) then the places that make so much sense for stops, like hospitals and universities, have to approve of the plans and the administration can sabotage it at the 11th hour. That's why the Durham Orange Light Rail Transit failed - after years of planning and even rerouting to serve two hospital systems, the VA and Duke, at Duke University's request, and with the deadline weeks away (too late to come up with a new route) Duke opposed, claiming the route by the hospitals would cause EMF interference with hospital equipment. Many who lived in the region at the time (and myself, as someone who had recently moved away) felt that it was an intentional move by the university because the trustees, president, etc., didn't want light rail at all.
That’s good to keep in mind!
Perfect name. Cbart.
Cbart forever.
CBART REVOLUTION
I want to add on an idea to future extend the system once it's built. If we're using the HRBT as a rail connection across the bay, we should use it for heavy passenger rail too. We should take the existing 2 Northeast Corridor routes to Newport News and Norfolk and use the tunnel to link them together into a dedicated 2-way orbital loop line between Norfolk and Richmond!!!
By connecting the two existing lines together in a loop, it would much better connect the Hampton Roads and Richmond metro areas through both regular, 20 minute interval express service up the mainland between Norfolk, Petersburg, and Richmond Staples Mill on one route, while also providing regular, 20 minute interval local trains up Hampton Road's main population corridor between Norfolk, Hampton, Newport News, PHF Airport, Williamsburg, RIC Airport, and Richmond Downtown station.
Being that it's heavy rail, it would also significantly boost capacity across the bay during rush hour since it operates on similar route as the CBART trains. And since both lines through run and stop at Staples Mill Station, the loop would also act as a pair of major branch lines connecting Hampton Roads to Amtrak's proposed Southeast Corridor and extended Northeast Corridor networks (both of which are set to bring high speed rail to Richmond too)!
I like the idea!! Thanks for watching
idek, they had a train in Virginia, tbqh i think the Amtrak had a station there, doe.
One major issue I see with your proposed route is the service to the air station in Virginia beach. with your routing on the north side of the base, there is nothing it will serve. It will need to dip south to the southern side of the air station to serve any use for the military in that part of the city.
Great point, thank you!
Its terrifying that i became such a transit nerd that even a small video from a random region in the US (not even my continent) appears on my RUclips Page
Nice video though 😂
I felt that
I fully support CBART! People deserve more options to get around, as more people buy cars and make highway traffic busier. Even more so, when there is an accident or construction.
🗣️ CBART
🗣️ REVOLUTION
Missed opportunity to call the system "Hampton Rails"
@@jg-7780 but I love how goofy CBART is
Before even seeing the proposal, I support CBART on the basis that it’s an excellent name
CBART
CBART
CBART
Interesting proposal. I live in Fredericksburg and VRE is what we have. Whenever you talk about light or high-speed rail the NIMBY signs appear. Do you know Ray Delahanty of the CityNetd channel? He would champion this.
Thank you, and I do! I love his work
I think that with the proposed line being as street running as it is that a BRT system would be better, we definitely have some roads that could give up their lanes. and a minor nitpick but that "old cargo railroad right of way" was the the rail line that literally built Virginia beach and carrier passengers to and from VB including up and down current day pacific ave and to ft story and shore drive from the 1890s up until 1948.
@@kennethschlegel870 thank you for pointing that out! I’ll leave a pinned comment. My intent for the line is to actually not have any street running sections! All of it will either be elevated, tunneled, or at-grade but not sharing land.
I'd be better off having a rail by the Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge-Tunnel so it'll be much better connected than the Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel because the VDOT already not included the railway in their expansion plans.
Fair enough!
Funny i came across this video after reading about the scrapped extension of the tide to VB last night.
Good proposal overall, however I'd suggest realigning the hampton portion to serve colliseum central, which is incidentally where i live. I also have concerns regarding the overall length of the line, which might make the total run time prohibitive. I can think of two additional lines that could be added right now that could account for areas not mentioned in this video. For what it's worth though, it's a great foundation
Thanks for your feedback!
Rather than trying to cross parallel to the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel, how about having the system follow Route 17? It would cross the James River parallel to the James River Bridge, pass through Carrollton, Suffolk, and Portsmouth, cross the Elizabeth River southern branch on a bridge south of the Naval Shipyard, cross the Elizabeth River eastern branch parallel to the existing railroad bridges, and then connect to the existing light rail line near Harbor Park. You aren't going to get agreement to convert vehicle traffic lanes on the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel, and building a tunnel specifically for light rail would be cost prohibitive. A lifting rail bridge alongside the James River Bridge would be much more viable. The system should be planned with branches that reach Fort Eustis, downtown Hampton, Chesapeake Greenbrier area, Virginia Beach city center, and the Naval Base.
I get that, but Newport News Shipbuilding is another massive ridership driver, so I didn’t want to leave that out. (I’m also biased as a CNU grad)
What about Lynnhaven Mall? There's no connection to the largest and busiest mall on the Southside
That’s a fair point!
This is intriguing, but the cost may be too massive. Why not extend the Tide's planned route to the waterfront and run north--south shuttle buses to off route destinations in Norfolk and Virginia Beach?
As much as that may better serve those who are already open to transit or exclusively rely on it (on top of being far more realistic), I feel the best way to convince those who don’t consider transit as a legitimate way to get around is with service that’s extremely high quality. It’ll be expensive, but I’m confident something of this caliber would seriously change public attitudes towards transit. The 757 Express buses serve this purpose already, and while they’ve seen relative success, I don’t think they’ll get a massive amount of people off the road. Thanks for watching!
There is no such thing as an "S-Bahn"-like train service anywhere in the US, so thinking it could work here is a bit *optimistic* to say the least ;) Just as a comparison: My local S-Bahn station has a ridership of almost 30k PER DAY or roughly 10 million a year. And that's just one of many stations in the network. The entire S-Bahn network has a *daily* ridership of almost half a million. And my daily commute of 25 km is quicker on the S-Bahn than driving and takes less than half an hour. So yeah, a CBART would be fun, but it wouldn't be an S-Bahn.
My only point is to elevate, elevate, elevate. Rapid transit needs to be grade seperated, tunneling is undoably expensive in most places and on this ugly, wide stroads that populatate Hampton roads more than a few of these tunnel sections can be easily elevated instead and save billions.
That’s a great point! I was trying to counter what I guessed were the nimby-est areas
@@tyleralberico I understand the sentiment, yet nimbys will nimby and fight something this ambitious regardless. Making the project billions cheaper is in my opinion the best way to counter nimbys and increase the chance of getting the project done. Also note the overwhelming usage of viaducts and existing right of ways on the model system, BART. And thank you for promoting better transportation in Hampton Roads
Send this the Governor of Virginia for review
He’ll swipe it away and start talking about how he played basketball in college
It would have automated trains, but street running? That's not really a thing. Also a key feature of an s-bahn is subway/commuter rail travel times, not light rail travel times. You can't run 60mph down a stroad. Just not possible.
@@daffquess7006 nope, not street running! It’ll be on its own right-of-way for the entire run.
@@tyleralberico In a center reservation? You can't run automated trains on a center or side reservation either, with current technology. I assumed the downtown+suburban portions were in a cut and cover tunnel until 3/4 of the way into the video
Ban mezzanines unless it’s an interchange station
Tell em 🗣️
When ypu say "the peninsula" which one are you referring to? The virginia peninsula, the middle peninsula, or the delmarva peninsula?
The Virginia peninsula!