The biblical view, in my reading, is that we're supposed to hate the world as an institution(for lack of a better term) but love the people in it. It's like how you're supposed to hate addiction but love the addict by trying to do everything you can to free them of it.
I was genuinely surprised to see 5 versions of this, I thought "in the world, not of the world" concept from John pretty much covered it. Very interesting!
People will always invent things not of God but of satan, because satan loves to confuse and deceive so if he cannot destroy the veracity of the right concept, he will use the inhabitants of his kingdom to invent many different viewpoints so that it would be hard to know what is true. That is why i detest theology, from it has come many new inventions.
I said same thing .whos this guy? He just appeared on my I pad.knows allll the tra ds, history etc.but not spirit.besides who is protesting ? Baaaa to the lot of the wovie dovie rot. Devil gets in by slow corruption .Bring back Cromwell and or templers ! These guys got all power of getting hit by wet lettuce leaf.i want to slap the crap out of this pixie .baaa hum bug!
Got all power of getting hit with a wet lettuce leaf! Baa hum bug.whos this let’s all be friends and wovvve this filthy murderous wicked evil world? Bring back templers and or cromwells new model army.baaaaa hum bug and again baaa hum bug .this sort of deceptive poisen sending many to hellfire.
I am Christ above culture. I have seen on my history lessons how cyclical is human nature. Just like the book of judges has a cycle of ups (when most faithful to God) and downs (when we decide to follow our vices and held them above the Lord) we follow this trend. We must still faithful because the Lord is still with us
Yess!! This is so real not gonna lie. I try not to worry myself about the world because I’m aware of the fact the world works in cycles where humans go through good times and bad times. And through these bad times we learn whatever we are supposed to learn
The vision that human history is a cycle is a simplifier view, often numbing down historical situations to bring the concept at one’s level of understanding instead of raising it to the concept’s complexity, it’s often used to satisfy our need of being "aware" of what comes next.
Romans 12:2 NKJV [2] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
@@MichaelMayor-k6t not everybody wants to accept a good answer because of their own worldly desires. As it is also written that there will be days that many will not endure sound doctrine.
@@SGOV86Romans 13 can legitimize the antichrist if you are not cautious with what he said. That verse says that you should not follow your desires for the world, but to accept that you are the one to prove what is good or bad, the world is simply a way of doing that. Aristotle for example, described the Poesis as being the art representing the nature as a pure ordered and organic mass one man does. What is the sin within describing and ordering this world? Evidentilally, it is us that must order, and to prove why it is an order. To be conformed to this world would be to order it in any way we want, blinded by ourselves, to want riches over and over, without order is nothing but being drown in your own desires, that is also why i says "renew your mind"
This applies only in the US. I live in Eastern Europe, and the culture is primarily conservative. So christ of culture can be as conservative, as it can be liberal.
Yes, depends on the time and the place. 40 years ago you would not have been able to say that about Eastern Europe because it was under the false religion of communism.
@MarkStein-b5b These things are linked to the number of christians. Like in Russia, these things are more popular than, for example, in Greece because there are more christians in Greece rather than Russia.
“Christ above Culture” and “Christ the redeemer of culture” is what my Baptist Church seem to really focus its mission around. Folks mistake me saying that Christians shouldn’t be idolizing politics as me saying that Christians shouldn’t vote.
@@misterkittyandfriends1441 Agreed 100%, we have no business choosing to not vote against stuff like Abortion. Because ultimately we are allowing it and being complacent with it if we don’t vote.
3 is kinda true now because of the last 2k years of 5 in action. Thats my take on the matter, but with the drift away from god the culture is regressing into sin and 5 is the fundamental truth to it all. 5 made 3 possible.
People like Augustine or Leibniz would argue the world is perfectly good. The problem is: What you desire should be for this perfect world{Your desire for evil is the entire problem, not anything else} , as it is a gift from God (of course, God comes first.)
The way I look at it is, we are in this world but we are not of this world. We are to appreciate the Lord's creation and to love one another, but we are not to love the sin in this world nor commit it.
Hate the passions of the world (self-love, gluttony, lust, love of money and greed, sadness, acedia (sloth & dejection or apathy and boredom anger, fear, vainglory, and pride. They are all interconnected); but Love the people.
Hate the sin not the sinner, but what do you do mean someone commits a sin and likes doing so? Someone who’s gay for example. They’re knowing sinning and enjoying it, but I can’t blame someone for just going with what they’re biologically programmed to be attracted to
@@orangeshirtguy01 you know now that you ask that is attraction in general something your born with or something you develop? Thank you for that question you got me curious now lol
@@Chadius_Thundercock yeah I think there's different levels of attraction like that, like uh, acquired taste. When you're a baby all you want is sweets, but as you grow you may want salty or spicy stuff.
Well I think all of these can be true in some sense depending on how we understand definitions. There is a culture of the world that we are called to hate, it's just that culture can mean multiple things. It also doesn't tell you what to do about this.
@@cloudywillowshome ik. We need to fight to make people Christian, we shouldn’t sit and wait for people to come for us. “Let your light so shine before men, that they may seek your good works, and glorify your father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)
@@cloudywillowshome you mean like when Jesus couldn't wait to get out of here and told the people "how much longer do I have to suffer you?" I'm with Jesus on that and ik he hated it way more since he was fully holy and up to that point had not known what was like to be around sin and away from heaven. I think Paul maybe, said the same. Can't wait to leave. We are set apart. You don't have to live in Pergamo to do God's will. Pray to God to make you hate sin, ask him to make you like he is but warning, that is his will and he will do it so... If you're more interested in financial stability or church growth and a house then don't pray like that bc you will see the world like he does. To me it's a good thing. 1 John 2.6
As someone who has read some of Luthers Political philosophy, I cannot say this is an accurate representation of view 4. It is still inherently a political position from the church in the traditional Lutheran view that the Church should support the government in whatever it deems necessary to keep order and stability if it does so without intruding on the gospel. Lutheranism naturally takes the political position of saying "Public Dillemmas should be solved because that's why God installed government"
You gotta do a wardrobe haul and teach me and my fellow southern Baptists how to wear any type of formal clothing higher than jeans and plaid button-downs 😅😅
Monastics weren’t exactly AGAINST culture, they just LIVED outside of it. Monastics were looking for ascetic/spiritually challenging practices now that there wasn’t the forced asceticism and challenges of living under persecution. There may have been some against culture people there, but that wasn’t the main point from my understanding.
One question here. Russian Philosopher Alexander Dugin basically described 2 views in the church. The first one is basically the old believers "do not belong to this world" credo which he also once compared to a religious anarchism (basically the only true ruler is christ and all worldly powers are corrupt). The second one is the more mainstream church view which he called Catechontism. Catechontism is basically a unity of church and state to drive out the antichrist and to protect christian values in society. And that as long as catechontism rules, the antichrist can not come. And that basically the church is the guardian (catechont) against the antichrist. Would position 3 basically be what he called Catechontism?
Great video!! C.s. Lewis is a great example of Christ above culture as well. The Colson center is a great institution that holds to Christ Redeems Culture. Personally I feel like I bounce between 3 and 5 a lot. What are your thoughts?
I, too, bounce between the two! I like the idea that we can create institutions that show the glory of God, but we see how much wickedness and corruption has come through these institutions throughout history. Our very best deeds are as filthy rags to God, and yet, He accepts our worship given in spirit and truth anyway! It makes me feel as though our best hope is to merely redeem the fallen things in this world, to the extent we can in the still fallen flesh. I don’t think any viewpoint is going to be perfect - a mere striving for what we all long for: the Eternal Reign of our King. In much the same way as Jesus demonstrated that the OT and the Law were impossible for men to fulfill, requiring God to fulfill it in our place, I know He will fulfill His promise and one day show us a Kingdom untarnished by our flesh in this fallen world. The Perfect and Eternal Kingdom of God. I long for that day more than anything else!
If possible, a video on marriage, especially since you are a newly wed and around our age (18-22) would be very interesting. Perhaps touching on topics such as major misconceptions young men might have, how to implement scripture practically and how to lead purposefully for Christ in your household?
Fr. Alexander Schmemenn (a 20th century Eastern Orthodox theologian) nicely said: "It is only when in the darkness of this world we discern that Christ has already ‘filled all things with Himself’ that these things, whatever they may be, are revealed and given to us full of meaning and beauty...A Christian is the one who, wherever he looks, finds Christ and rejoices in Him. And this joy transforms all his human plans and programs, decisions and actions, making all his mission the sacrament of the world’s return to Him who is the life of the world."
I also have thoughts that agree with the "Christ redeemer of culture" position. I think there is no coincedence that we achieved so much technological, cultural and ethical progress after our Lord came down, died and resurrected. Ancient people also had a lot of knowledge to advance that far but couldn't I put my bet that the progress was a blessing that we took for granted
I’m more like in the 3rd category, with some leaning on the 5th one in a sense that culture could be transformed by the Church but it is only a (good) side effect rather than a main purpose of the Church’s mission. Thank you for the video.
"All truth is God's truth and we should pick up good insights wherever we find them." Amen brother, if it's good it's from God. If it's from God it's good. Doesn't matter if you pick up a good truth from a horrible person or a good one, if that is still the truth and good then God has made it so. If it's not good, and not truthful, it's deceit and from the devil.
It depends on which culture. If it's the Chinese culture (includes chinese religions and mandatory rituals) then it's definitely 1 (or 5) But if it's something that's more universal and doesn't have any mandatory rituals, i would say 3.
I think the church should be political but not put it over God. I’m fine about hearing politics in church because it’s part of our world. But I don’t want entire sermons on certain political figures. I grew up with a “religious” person who would scream and tell me and my siblings and my mother we were going to hell. He no longer believes in the Bible but when he did he talked more about trump than he did God. He made trump his God and that’s part of the reason I hold such a distain for politics in the church. It tends to always go to far.
So much thinking! So much turmoil! After viewing this video I felt better off as a Buddhist, at peace with myself and those around me, together, in Samsara.
Hello I'm not Amish but I lived very close to them. The Amish are allowed to use technology that their bishop deems ok. There are differences between the different communities as they are under different bishops. Some bishops may allow more technology while another may not allow as much.
One of Redeemed Zoomer's best videos. For my part, I have a real hard time with both [1] and [2]. I probably fall into [3] but I'm certainly sympathetic to both [4] and [5].
As a Catholic, it is with great pleasure to announce that today is the feast day of Bl. Carlo Acutis! He will soon become the first gamer saint and he made a website of Eucharistic Miracles in the Catholic Church. To celebrate, I’m playing Minecraft just like Zoomer probably is rn.
@@VasiliyOgniov Ikr, he was only 15. Although, if you want to feel better, look up a photo of him playing with his dog. And him dressed as Spider-Man for Halloween.
Only the creator of life can rule over life is the answer for 1 and 3. As for 2, the Christian way to go about it is to be loving, welcoming those in need of a home and teach them about Christ.
@@jayhill2193 Do you mean "only the creator of life can rule over human life"? Are you vegan? Scratch that, do you eat food? Then, you cannot believe "Only the creator of life can rule over life".
“The world” is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead…. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.” See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.” +St Isaac the Syrian (7th Century)
l agree with the vision 1,3 and 5. Christ is above culture,but we should to do the maximum for redeemer the culture and if necessary,we should to leave this world case we fail in this mission
John 3:16, "for God so loved the *world* " - Who am I to refuse to love something that God also loves? Likewise, 1 John 2:16 tells me the qualities of the world that is not of the father. I feel like the truth is somewhere between points 3, 4 and 5. When we are saved and baptized, our citizenship belongs with the kingdom of God. A culture that has fallen to sin is not of the kingdom of God, so as its citizens we're not to partake in it. To be circumcised of heart. And instead we are to go into that world, and bring as many into the citizenship of the kingdom as possible. Two worlds, one Earth, one citizenship, one great commission. (And One God). It feels like all three of those perspectives get really close to that but don't get close enough.
I had dream last night that had you in it. We were attending a local presbyterian church in my area (doesn't exist irl) with doug wilson and you had beard. I felt awkward because I had my comforter blanket with me during the service. And you ignored me after the message every time I went to talk to you. Thank you.
reminds me of this copy pasta I saw [insert celebrity] at a grocery store in Los Angeles yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
I think Keller should be definitely in the 5th category. He was always seen as holding a new Calvinistic perspective about the world, following Bavinck and others before him.
@@AetherUtopia They are different perspectives that fit together. It's like if one person told you I like vanilla ice cream, and another person told you I like chocolate ice cream; I like both.
Well we got RZ to admit Baptists are okay, next prayer point is that he will recognise that Baptists historically have their heritage in the English separatist movement not the Radical Reformation in any direct sense. Baptists have some similar beliefs to Anabaptists but we're actually historically closer to the Reformed tradition even if the see-saw of majority status between Particular and General Baptists has swung to the latter in recent times.
He should make the videos as pointlessly large as possible in order to use up bandwidth that might otherwise go to storing sinful elsagate videos for RUclips Kids.
Luce's usage is pretty limited, because she was created for mostly for Jubilee. And Jubilee is known for younger people (kids, weebs, teenagers). So they took idea to Catholicize a chibi anime character, called her Luce or Luce-chan.
Day 17 of asking Redeemed Zoomer to livestream himself listening to the 2006 album Go by the Newsboys because it's good contemporary Christian music (Shine: The Hits is good too)
This video was made for people like me. I'm definitely a (1) & fully reject (2). Lately, I've wondered what other viewpoints exist. Then this video appeared. Thank you for creating it
Jesus makes it pretty clear not to go with the culture. I could be wrong but of the many verses I've read I have never got the feeling that Jesus wants us to go with the culture at all.
1:28 not Amish but (sort of) anabaptist so this sort of counts it kind of depends on what Amish community you are talking about some go as far as to even have cars and shop at Walmart also it isn’t like Amish doctrine to not use modern tech just a lot of them feel like it could harm the community
The problem is that "culture" doesn't simply mean "the current secular cultural movements that you dislike." The language we use is part of our culture, and languages are neither good nor bad, although differences in languages can affect how we express ourselves. Religion (even Christianity) is part of "culture." Art, whether a beautiful landscape that captures the workings of God's hand in this world, or the ugliest and most degraded item can be classified as "culture." The same is true of music or literature. A cultural movement can be sort-of positive and tend toward Christian values or virtues, or it can pull people away from godliness. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to reject all "culture," as intrinsically evil, because culture involves all the influences that surround us and mold us, even as benign as food (which God created to be good) or technology. There are many things, even patently secular things, such as medical treatments invented by atheists, that we can use to do God's work. This isn't new. The Jewish people and early Christians borrowed things from their cultures ("plundering the Egyptians"). For example, John used the Greek concept of the Logos in his writing. Historically, we are also told (Epistle to Diogenetus, mid-2nd century to early 3rd century) that early Christians were not "distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity." Yet the author goes on to say that Christians "display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life." Basically, Christians rejected many of the worst Roman values (violence, disregard for human life, the lust for power, dehumanization of certain groups, and certain views toward sexuality) while not making themselves stand out because of non-essentials. Of course, even in Paul's time defining nonessentials caused some problems, because people sometimes disagreed about grey areas, especially regarding vegetarianism and the eating of foods that had been offered to idols (and which was sometimes sold in the public meat stalls. Paul said don't ask; just eat it.) We still see this today in issues such as observing Halloween or other holidays, in clothing styles, and listening to secular music. Christians can have VERY strong opinions about these, and the most rigorous stance isn't always the "holiest." So, in the end, it looks like we have to follow the early Church, pray for discernment, and not judge those whose opinion differs from ours about things not directly connected with basic morality. Granted, this is NOT always an easy call to make.
I agree. With art specifically, as a creative, I love listening to music, watching films or reading literature that actually does something interesting with the medium. A lot of contemporary Christian media doesn't do that (although it is starting to improve, like with Angel Studios for example). So I struggle with only consuming explicitly Christian content. Discernment is key basically, I always try to make sure I'm aware of what's in secular content, both the good and the bad.
Orthodox see "the World" as "the Passions" or the accumulated outcome of humanity's cooperation with their passions, i.e. culture and civilization. So, if you can live in the world and not give in to the passions, great. But, many, like Saint Paul, have had to remove themselves from the world for a significant period in order to cleanse themselves of the passions before returning to "the world" to redeem it and share the Gospel properly.
DK if there are any others who are like this - I'm mostly no. 3 but I can be inclined towards no. 5 when I'm feeling optimistic. Rationally I am however a believer in natural law. I find it hard to speak with most modern Christians as they're usually #1,#2 or #4, however most Christian thinkers in the past like RZ says were realists or reformers.
I have a mix view between the third and 5th view. I accept the lesser evils of the world that we have to accept like, like in a war innocent people die, and you can't accept people into a country without any control, but I think we have to whenever is possibly improve things like accept a cease fire in which you loose territories in a war, or try to give money to foreign countries so they don't need to come nock in our doors for a job.
The Catholic Church offers a nuanced approach to the relationship between Christ and culture, blending several perspectives to form a coherent vision rooted in Scripture, Tradition, and the teachings of Church Fathers and theologians. Rather than endorsing one rigid model, the Church embraces a balanced engagement with culture, recognizing both the presence of sin and the potential for grace to transform the world. This Catholic position draws heavily from the insights of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI. At the heart of the Catholic understanding is the principle that grace builds on and perfects nature (Aquinas). The Church believes that human culture-although tainted by sin-contains traces of truth, goodness, and beauty. These elements are not rejected but are elevated through the Gospel. This reflects the teaching that Christ’s role is not to destroy or replace culture but to fulfill it, redeeming what is good and purifying what is distorted. Thus, Catholics are called to engage actively with culture, discerning what can be embraced and what must be transformed in light of Christ. The tension between Christ and the world is central to Catholic thought, as articulated by St. Augustine. In The City of God, Augustine describes history as a struggle between two cities: the City of God and the City of Man. These two kingdoms coexist throughout time, and while Christians must live in the world, their true citizenship is in heaven. This “paradox” means that Catholics must navigate both earthly culture and the Gospel-working for justice and truth here and now, while keeping their ultimate hope in the fulfillment of God’s kingdom. This tension between nature and grace is not cause for retreat but for hopeful engagement. St. John Paul II exemplified this vision by emphasizing the need for Christians to transform society from within. He believed that every dimension of human culture-art, politics, economics, and science-can reflect God’s plan when oriented toward truth and love. His Theology of the Body demonstrates how even aspects of human relationships, when illuminated by grace, can manifest God’s design for human flourishing. Similarly, Pope Benedict XVI stressed the importance of "re-evangelizing culture", particularly in secular societies, helping them rediscover their Christian roots and values. The Catholic approach thus avoids two extremes. On one hand, it rejects a complete separation from culture, as found in radical forms of monasticism or fundamentalism (Christ against culture). On the other, it warns against conforming to worldly values (Christ of culture), as this would compromise the integrity of the Gospel. The Church walks a middle path, recognizing the need for critical engagement-affirming what is good, challenging what is sinful, and always working toward the redemption and renewal of human culture through Christ. Ultimately, the Catholic position aligns most closely with the idea of Christ as the redeemer of culture. Through His incarnation, death, and resurrection, Christ entered the human story and began a process of renewal that continues through the Church. Vatican II emphasized the role of the laity in bringing the Gospel into all aspects of temporal life, helping to shape the world according to God’s will. This vision reflects the belief that the kingdom of God is already present, though not yet fully realized, and that Christians are co-workers with Christ in bringing about that transformation. In conclusion, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians must engage culture with both faith and discernment-recognizing the goodness within it, rejecting its distortions, and participating in its transformation. The Church's mission is to infuse the temporal order with the light of the Gospel, trusting that Christ, through His grace, redeems and fulfills all things. This hope-filled engagement offers a way forward, transforming the world in anticipation of the fullness of God’s kingdom.
I think the best view is to see ourslevs as Pilgrims and Travellers in a land that's not our own. We are in the world, but not of the world, because our true citizenship is in Heaven. Therefore, we need to be always looking ahead towards our ultimate destination, and not let ourselves grow too attached or distracted by the things of this world. A stranger in a forign country can undoubtly make a positive impact in his surrounding society while he lives there.. but he must remember that ultimately, he is on earth only for s short time, because Heaven is his true home.
“Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” - James 4:4 (NKJV)
I'd say I'm a bit of Christ Above Culture and Christ is Redeemer of Culture. Both make sense to me and act in tandem of each other. Christ Of Culture is great in theory but it's often dangerous for the church if the culture goes astray.
Jude 1:22-23 NKJV And on some have compassion, making a distinction; [23] but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
For my own life, perspective 5 gives me the hope i need for me, maintaining an attitude of 1 because sin is a killer. Romans 6 23, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
It’s 5 . Matthew 28 post mill . The Old Testament says the age of church will be so good , people won’t even have teach their neighbour about the Lord they will already know him .
Interesting video...Maybe it is better to talk more about early christian, proto-protestant (John Wycliffe?), and protestant, belief in predestination?
I found myself agreeing with some points of each view, and disagreeing with others. So I'm not entirely sure which of these views I hold to. Here are a few of my beliefs: - Instead of following the trends of the world, the church should directly follow Jesus and the Bible in general. This often leads us to go against the culture. - The church should be a driving force behind changing whatever culture we can. - The way we do this is by changing as many individual minds and hearts as we possibly can. In other words, the church grows through word of mouth. - Christians in high positions should use their platforms to promote Christ. And all Christians should promote Him in whatever avenues He has given us. - On some aspects of culture, such as fashion trends or popular sports or games, individual Christians can choose whatever they like, but the church as a whole should not take a side. - The earth is a sinking ship that will continue to get worse until the end of the 7 year tribulation period described throughout Revelation. - The rapture is literal and will be the catalyst that allows the tribulation to kick off. The Millennial Kingdom, the final battle, and the final judgment are all also literal and will happen in immediate succession to the tribulation. So, dear commenter, which view would you say I subscribe to? I would guess it's probably one of the last three.
The fathers also taught contrary to the retreatist error of the anabaptist Amish: Clement of Alexandria, "For not the righteousness that comes from isolation is great, but that which is exercised through contact with the world and yet is untainted by it... A Christian is not one who hides away, but one who lives rightly among others, that through him many might be saved" (The Stromata, VII) Augustine tells us, "For we were saved to proclaim the gospel, not to hide away... Therefore, let no one say: 'I will live quietly and in peace with myself alone.' You are sent for the salvation of others." (Letter 185, to Boniface) John Chrysostom says, "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. There is nothing more chilling than the sight of a Christian who makes no effort to save others." (Homilies on Matthew, 15) Justin Martyr rightly says, "We do not flee from the light of public life, but we are made more worthy by our faith to engage with it. We live in cities, we take part in civic life, but we do so as those transformed by Christ, bearing witness to Him in all we do" (First Apology, 14) The ancient epistle to Diagnetus says, "For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe... But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners... They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven"
I’m kind of in an alternating state between the “Christ against culture” view and the “Christ above culture” view because I often hate the world when I look and see all the vice in the media, but when I feel encouraged to engage politically, I have some hope that Christ can make the culture better.
@@fakename-r7q hey sooooo I’m a long term subscriber of rz and watch all of his content anyway, he just so happened to be discussing a topic I had an test on the next day. I had already studied for hours before watching this video. Thanks for being rude tho!
@@rachaelwilkerson6723 ohhhh a long time subscriber? wow that changes everything. you must be homeschooled or private school. normal kids dont have midterms on niche christian bs like this. kinda sad how much of your formative years have been wasted on this
@@fakename-r7q I don’t think it’s sad, I really enjoy learning about church doctrine and history :) and yes I go to a private college and am taking a worldview class.
Small correction: some things were set up by God for us, and we cannot redefine it (this is Christ above culture). So Fr. James Martin can't say 'Pete Buddiditch is married' because while the humans think he is married, he actually isn't because he is 'married' to another man, which is mutually exclusive from real marriage. This is why annulments exist: they aren't Catholic divorce; they are simply acknowledgments of an invalid marriage. That is to say, some things God created and sets standards for that we try to cooperate with.
1: this is fundamentally unhealthy, unless you're a monk and you're doing it for the sake of the Kingdom. In other words, you're not retreating from the world for your own sake, but for the sake of the church. Then this can be holy but again only in the context of the greater Kingdom of God 2. Anathama sit 3. Yes 4. Oh sweet summer child 5. The Catholic church would also agree with this. Think of all the universities and hospitals we establish. Also, the whole Christendom project was about transforming the culture. So I think three and five can be held at the same time.
The world has a malleable aspect to it , we can not escape "the world" whist we are hear, its spirituality where we put our feet and what way we face. In my opinion if semantics are more important than application that is folly as wisdom requires application and its duty and partly perogative of how , its OK to get to the bottom of semantics in talking with passion as long as the fruit is tasty.
The Amish would have more of a “two kingdom” concept, just with a very separated implementation. It’s more of a rejection of specific 19th and 20th century ideas such as modernism, techno-progress, and human reasoning. More liberal Amish groups (like mine) have less of a separated view apparent, and the two kingdom view is more apparent. And in defense of that view, the point is in the methods used to transform the world - religion is upstream of culture, so therefore we should focus on changing the world up there, not wasting time meddling in the downstream effects.
The biblical view, in my reading, is that we're supposed to hate the world as an institution(for lack of a better term) but love the people in it. It's like how you're supposed to hate addiction but love the addict by trying to do everything you can to free them of it.
When you say “the world” what does that entail for you?
We're not to fight the world, but influence it
@@ApostolicZoomer Sin and the effects of the Fall, more or less. Our sinful culture vs the fallen person. Hate the former, love the latter.
@@HistoryNerd808 Makes sense, appreciate the reply!
Basically a "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing.
I was genuinely surprised to see 5 versions of this, I thought "in the world, not of the world" concept from John pretty much covered it. Very interesting!
People will always invent things not of God but of satan, because satan loves to confuse and deceive so if he cannot destroy the veracity of the right concept, he will use the inhabitants of his kingdom to invent many different viewpoints so that it would be hard to know what is true. That is why i detest theology, from it has come many new inventions.
I said same thing .whos this guy? He just appeared on my I pad.knows allll the tra ds, history etc.but not spirit.besides who is protesting ? Baaaa to the lot of the wovie dovie rot. Devil gets in by slow corruption .Bring back Cromwell and or templers ! These guys got all power of getting hit by wet lettuce leaf.i want to slap the crap out of this pixie .baaa hum bug!
Got all power of getting hit with a wet lettuce leaf! Baa hum bug.whos this let’s all be friends and wovvve this filthy murderous wicked evil world? Bring back templers and or cromwells new model army.baaaaa hum bug and again baaa hum bug .this sort of deceptive poisen sending many to hellfire.
It does, but it needs some explanation/development
I am Christ above culture. I have seen on my history lessons how cyclical is human nature. Just like the book of judges has a cycle of ups (when most faithful to God) and downs (when we decide to follow our vices and held them above the Lord) we follow this trend. We must still faithful because the Lord is still with us
Yess!! This is so real not gonna lie. I try not to worry myself about the world because I’m aware of the fact the world works in cycles where humans go through good times and bad times. And through these bad times we learn whatever we are supposed to learn
Indeed - hence the saying 'history repeats itself'.
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." Ecc 1 (Lamentations of King Solomon)
The vision that human history is a cycle is a simplifier view, often numbing down historical situations to bring the concept at one’s level of understanding instead of raising it to the concept’s complexity, it’s often used to satisfy our need of being "aware" of what comes next.
Romans 12:2 NKJV
[2] And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
if 1 verse would be enough to make anyone find the good answer, then there wouldn't even have a debate.
@@MichaelMayor-k6t not everybody wants to accept a good answer because of their own worldly desires. As it is also written that there will be days that many will not endure sound doctrine.
@@SGOV86Romans 13 can legitimize the antichrist if you are not cautious with what he said. That verse says that you should not follow your desires for the world, but to accept that you are the one to prove what is good or bad, the world is simply a way of doing that. Aristotle for example, described the Poesis as being the art representing the nature as a pure ordered and organic mass one man does. What is the sin within describing and ordering this world? Evidentilally, it is us that must order, and to prove why it is an order. To be conformed to this world would be to order it in any way we want, blinded by ourselves, to want riches over and over, without order is nothing but being drown in your own desires, that is also why i says "renew your mind"
This literally only rules out position 2.
This applies only in the US. I live in Eastern Europe, and the culture is primarily conservative. So christ of culture can be as conservative, as it can be liberal.
Yes, depends on the time and the place. 40 years ago you would not have been able to say that about Eastern Europe because it was under the false religion of communism.
@MarkStein-b5b These things are linked to the number of christians. Like in Russia, these things are more popular than, for example, in Greece because there are more christians in Greece rather than Russia.
“Christ above Culture” and “Christ the redeemer of culture” is what my Baptist Church seem to really focus its mission around.
Folks mistake me saying that Christians shouldn’t be idolizing politics as me saying that Christians shouldn’t vote.
Christ > politicians, always and forever.
Yeah I hold to those two as a historic Premellenial, just to further confuse RZ and complicate his theological alchemy.
I think the better argument is that Christians *must* vote.
Voting is useless as all legible candidates are selected by Satanists with power over many nations.
@@misterkittyandfriends1441 Agreed 100%, we have no business choosing to not vote against stuff like Abortion. Because ultimately we are allowing it and being complacent with it if we don’t vote.
I'm Catholic but lean more towards 5 than 3 (as I am probably supposed to)
Another good insightful video!
3 is kinda true now because of the last 2k years of 5 in action. Thats my take on the matter, but with the drift away from god the culture is regressing into sin and 5 is the fundamental truth to it all. 5 made 3 possible.
People like Augustine or Leibniz would argue the world is perfectly good. The problem is: What you desire should be for this perfect world{Your desire for evil is the entire problem, not anything else} , as it is a gift from God (of course, God comes first.)
The way I look at it is, we are in this world but we are not of this world.
We are to appreciate the Lord's creation and to love one another, but we are not to love the sin in this world nor commit it.
Exactly!
We aren't of this world in a sense but it a way we are
That is quoting from the epistle to diognetus i think
We are pilgrims on a journey sowing the seeds of goodness as we pass by
Love the World, hate the sins.
Hate the passions of the world (self-love, gluttony, lust, love of money and greed, sadness, acedia (sloth & dejection or apathy and boredom anger, fear, vainglory, and pride. They are all interconnected); but Love the people.
I agree with this, too! We should love creation and hate the passions of worldliness
Hate the sin not the sinner, but what do you do mean someone commits a sin and likes doing so? Someone who’s gay for example. They’re knowing sinning and enjoying it, but I can’t blame someone for just going with what they’re biologically programmed to be attracted to
@@Chadius_Thundercock is it actually scientifically and biologically proven that people are born gay? (genuine question)
@@orangeshirtguy01 you know now that you ask that is attraction in general something your born with or something you develop? Thank you for that question you got me curious now lol
@@Chadius_Thundercock yeah I think there's different levels of attraction like that, like uh, acquired taste. When you're a baby all you want is sweets, but as you grow you may want salty or spicy stuff.
The view of Christ against culture can sometimes consider politics itself to be an evil of our culture, as in the Amish generally refusing to vote.
"It's not like there's gonna be any Amish people who watch this video" RZ 2024
true
Hasn't he said that before?
I hear from the ex-Amish RUclipsr Eli Yoder on his channel that some Amish secretly have phones, and he even helps supply some of them.
I love your username btw
@@Jay-w9d4y Multiple times, yes.
No.1 Just sounds like a sort of Gnosticism. It's the thing I dislike most about Baptists, that this is so prevalent.
Gnosis is the way, heathen.
Well I think all of these can be true in some sense depending on how we understand definitions. There is a culture of the world that we are called to hate, it's just that culture can mean multiple things. It also doesn't tell you what to do about this.
baptist denominations are so diverse, they really cover all 4. Mine in particular is more of a 3 and 5.
Gnostics hate the entire material world dont they? Culture is just one aspect
I despise nihilism in Christianity. It just seems to go against the religion itself
Unfortunately, people in my denomination like #1 a tad too much.
It truly is really sad to see people just run away from issues like that
@@cloudywillowshome ik. We need to fight to make people Christian, we shouldn’t sit and wait for people to come for us. “Let your light so shine before men, that they may seek your good works, and glorify your father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16)
@@RedeemedMusicanOfGodwhat denomination is that?
Completely common, people thrown away by sin tend to get that idea of the world as something bad
@@cloudywillowshome you mean like when Jesus couldn't wait to get out of here and told the people "how much longer do I have to suffer you?"
I'm with Jesus on that and ik he hated it way more since he was fully holy and up to that point had not known what was like to be around sin and away from heaven. I think Paul maybe, said the same. Can't wait to leave. We are set apart. You don't have to live in Pergamo to do God's will.
Pray to God to make you hate sin, ask him to make you like he is but warning, that is his will and he will do it so... If you're more interested in financial stability or church growth and a house then don't pray like that bc you will see the world like he does.
To me it's a good thing.
1 John 2.6
You are brilliant, young brother. So glad that mind is being used for good.
Great work. Continued success. Number 1. We are Baptists.
The spinning ceiling fan is distracting.
As someone who has read some of Luthers Political philosophy, I cannot say this is an accurate representation of view 4. It is still inherently a political position from the church in the traditional Lutheran view that the Church should support the government in whatever it deems necessary to keep order and stability if it does so without intruding on the gospel. Lutheranism naturally takes the political position of saying "Public Dillemmas should be solved because that's why God installed government"
Thanks for putting this together.
Everything but 2 and potentially 5 are valid, and I believe prudence requires identifying how culture should be considered and interacted with.
You gotta do a wardrobe haul and teach me and my fellow southern Baptists how to wear any type of formal clothing higher than jeans and plaid button-downs 😅😅
Monastics weren’t exactly AGAINST culture, they just LIVED outside of it. Monastics were looking for ascetic/spiritually challenging practices now that there wasn’t the forced asceticism and challenges of living under persecution. There may have been some against culture people there, but that wasn’t the main point from my understanding.
“The world is a fine place and worth fighting for, I believe in the second one”
One question here. Russian Philosopher Alexander Dugin basically described 2 views in the church. The first one is basically the old believers "do not belong to this world" credo which he also once compared to a religious anarchism (basically the only true ruler is christ and all worldly powers are corrupt). The second one is the more mainstream church view which he called Catechontism. Catechontism is basically a unity of church and state to drive out the antichrist and to protect christian values in society. And that as long as catechontism rules, the antichrist can not come. And that basically the church is the guardian (catechont) against the antichrist.
Would position 3 basically be what he called Catechontism?
"as long as catechontism rules, the antichrist can not come" - is there any Biblical source for this? or did he just make that up?
Great video!!
C.s. Lewis is a great example of Christ above culture as well.
The Colson center is a great institution that holds to Christ Redeems Culture.
Personally I feel like I bounce between 3 and 5 a lot. What are your thoughts?
I, too, bounce between the two! I like the idea that we can create institutions that show the glory of God, but we see how much wickedness and corruption has come through these institutions throughout history. Our very best deeds are as filthy rags to God, and yet, He accepts our worship given in spirit and truth anyway! It makes me feel as though our best hope is to merely redeem the fallen things in this world, to the extent we can in the still fallen flesh.
I don’t think any viewpoint is going to be perfect - a mere striving for what we all long for: the Eternal Reign of our King. In much the same way as Jesus demonstrated that the OT and the Law were impossible for men to fulfill, requiring God to fulfill it in our place, I know He will fulfill His promise and one day show us a Kingdom untarnished by our flesh in this fallen world. The Perfect and Eternal Kingdom of God. I long for that day more than anything else!
@@monkeyshinserman great answer appreciate the thought.
If possible, a video on marriage, especially since you are a newly wed and around our age (18-22) would be very interesting. Perhaps touching on topics such as major misconceptions young men might have, how to implement scripture practically and how to lead purposefully for Christ in your household?
I was literally just watching a video about Plato and thinking about this question. Wild! ☦️
Fr. Alexander Schmemenn (a 20th century Eastern Orthodox theologian) nicely said: "It is only when in the darkness of this world we discern that Christ has already ‘filled all things with Himself’ that these things, whatever they may be, are revealed and given to us full of meaning and beauty...A Christian is the one who, wherever he looks, finds Christ and rejoices in Him. And this joy transforms all his human plans and programs, decisions and actions, making all his mission the sacrament of the world’s return to Him who is the life of the world."
God Bless You All Amen ✝️♥️✝️♥️✝️
I also have thoughts that agree with the "Christ redeemer of culture" position. I think there is no coincedence that we achieved so much technological, cultural and ethical progress after our Lord came down, died and resurrected. Ancient people also had a lot of knowledge to advance that far but couldn't I put my bet that the progress was a blessing that we took for granted
This is a really interesting point - I'd never thought about it like that before!
I’m more like in the 3rd category, with some leaning on the 5th one in a sense that culture could be transformed by the Church but it is only a (good) side effect rather than a main purpose of the Church’s mission.
Thank you for the video.
"All truth is God's truth and we should pick up good insights wherever we find them." Amen brother, if it's good it's from God. If it's from God it's good. Doesn't matter if you pick up a good truth from a horrible person or a good one, if that is still the truth and good then God has made it so. If it's not good, and not truthful, it's deceit and from the devil.
It depends on which culture. If it's the Chinese culture (includes chinese religions and mandatory rituals) then it's definitely 1 (or 5) But if it's something that's more universal and doesn't have any mandatory rituals, i would say 3.
I think the church should be political but not put it over God. I’m fine about hearing politics in church because it’s part of our world. But I don’t want entire sermons on certain political figures. I grew up with a “religious” person who would scream and tell me and my siblings and my mother we were going to hell. He no longer believes in the Bible but when he did he talked more about trump than he did God. He made trump his God and that’s part of the reason I hold such a distain for politics in the church. It tends to always go to far.
So much thinking! So much turmoil! After viewing this video I felt better off as a Buddhist, at peace with myself and those around me, together, in Samsara.
Hello I'm not Amish but I lived very close to them. The Amish are allowed to use technology that their bishop deems ok. There are differences between the different communities as they are under different bishops. Some bishops may allow more technology while another may not allow as much.
The world is of evil but we live in it. We all work to bring Christs kingdom to everyone daily.
One of Redeemed Zoomer's best videos. For my part, I have a real hard time with both [1] and [2]. I probably fall into [3] but I'm certainly sympathetic to both [4] and [5].
Great video on an important thing. Thanks for the wisdom.
As a Catholic, it is with great pleasure to announce that today is the feast day of Bl. Carlo Acutis! He will soon become the first gamer saint and he made a website of Eucharistic Miracles in the Catholic Church. To celebrate, I’m playing Minecraft just like Zoomer probably is rn.
Nice
Nice, he helped me to get my Bachelor through prayer.
Never heard about him. Just googled his name and... This is very interesting, yet immensly sad story
Woooo!
@@VasiliyOgniov Ikr, he was only 15. Although, if you want to feel better, look up a photo of him playing with his dog. And him dressed as Spider-Man for Halloween.
Thanks RZ. Great video.
Love warns is infinity times more important than love wins!
Make a video on Christianity and death penalty, Christianity and immigration, Christianity and abortion
lol he isn't an AI, you can't just give him a command
@@connorhughes9981 Ha ha ha! 🤣
@@connorhughes9981😂 bro was giving him prompts
Only the creator of life can rule over life is the answer for 1 and 3. As for 2, the Christian way to go about it is to be loving, welcoming those in need of a home and teach them about Christ.
@@jayhill2193 Do you mean "only the creator of life can rule over human life"? Are you vegan? Scratch that, do you eat food? Then, you cannot believe "Only the creator of life can rule over life".
“The world” is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead…. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.”
See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.”
+St Isaac the Syrian (7th Century)
beautiful, and true.
l agree with the vision 1,3 and 5.
Christ is above culture,but we should to do the maximum for redeemer the culture and if necessary,we should to leave this world case we fail in this mission
John 3:16, "for God so loved the *world* " - Who am I to refuse to love something that God also loves?
Likewise, 1 John 2:16 tells me the qualities of the world that is not of the father.
I feel like the truth is somewhere between points 3, 4 and 5. When we are saved and baptized, our citizenship belongs with the kingdom of God. A culture that has fallen to sin is not of the kingdom of God, so as its citizens we're not to partake in it. To be circumcised of heart. And instead we are to go into that world, and bring as many into the citizenship of the kingdom as possible.
Two worlds, one Earth, one citizenship, one great commission. (And One God). It feels like all three of those perspectives get really close to that but don't get close enough.
I had dream last night that had you in it. We were attending a local presbyterian church in my area (doesn't exist irl) with doug wilson and you had beard. I felt awkward because I had my comforter blanket with me during the service. And you ignored me after the message every time I went to talk to you. Thank you.
reminds me of this copy pasta
I saw [insert celebrity] at a grocery store in Los Angeles yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
I think Keller should be definitely in the 5th category. He was always seen as holding a new Calvinistic perspective about the world, following Bavinck and others before him.
I’m #3 mindset, with #4 when you get me to think really hard about it.
There's a song called the Terrifying Judgement which outlines the correct outlook on the subject.
3 and 5 is basically the same, enforcing natural law changes culture, and the best way for the Church to change culture is with natural law.
How shameful for a pastor to tell his congregation that the Gospels are contradictory.
Protestants aren’t known for great scriptural interpretative skills.
The Gospels are contradictory. This is one reason why Christianity is almost certainly false.
@@AetherUtopia They are different perspectives that fit together. It's like if one person told you I like vanilla ice cream, and another person told you I like chocolate ice cream; I like both.
@@AetherUtopia I don't think you did any reading on the gospels or even on the contradictory on this stupid argument... 👍🏻
@@AetherUtopia Bart is that you? get new material.
What about Leibniz and Augustine view on the problem of evil? Describing nature as a perfect ontos. Just that sin is "absence of good".
Can i believe 2 of them? I kinda agree with 3 and 5
Well we got RZ to admit Baptists are okay, next prayer point is that he will recognise that Baptists historically have their heritage in the English separatist movement not the Radical Reformation in any direct sense. Baptists have some similar beliefs to Anabaptists but we're actually historically closer to the Reformed tradition even if the see-saw of majority status between Particular and General Baptists has swung to the latter in recent times.
It’s confirmed, we are never getting a video ever above 720p from redeemed zoomer lol
To get that satanict degraded resolution yt gives at 1080p??? No thanks!
based, anything above 720p is unnecessary
My guess is most of his viewer base watches these videos on phones or tablets, not 4k monitors or tvs.
He should make the videos as pointlessly large as possible in order to use up bandwidth that might otherwise go to storing sinful elsagate videos for RUclips Kids.
@@whocares435-z9v 16K videos!
I feel like first it’s a matter of acknowledging Christ above culture and then seeking to redeem it through faith and good works.
Ever heard of Luce (Vatican's anime mascot)? I was really surprised to hear about such an example of View No.3.
Luce's usage is pretty limited, because she was created for mostly for Jubilee. And Jubilee is known for younger people (kids, weebs, teenagers).
So they took idea to Catholicize a chibi anime character, called her Luce or Luce-chan.
World is temporary, Christ is forever!!!!!
The Ortho beard in the thumbnail 🤣
Day 17 of asking Redeemed Zoomer to livestream himself listening to the 2006 album Go by the Newsboys because it's good contemporary Christian music (Shine: The Hits is good too)
Pastor Anderson belives in soul winning ... so he is indeed FOR redeeming the culture!
Thank you for this great and informative video! Keep it up Redeemed Zoomer!
Nice overview.
This video was made for people like me. I'm definitely a (1) & fully reject (2). Lately, I've wondered what other viewpoints exist.
Then this video appeared. Thank you for creating it
Christ and Culture in Paradox is the position that helped me connect with my church. (We’re very influenced by Tim Keller, ha!)
Jesus makes it pretty clear not to go with the culture. I could be wrong but of the many verses I've read I have never got the feeling that Jesus wants us to go with the culture at all.
1:28 not Amish but (sort of) anabaptist so this sort of counts it kind of depends on what Amish community you are talking about some go as far as to even have cars and shop at Walmart also it isn’t like Amish doctrine to not use modern tech just a lot of them feel like it could harm the community
Great video 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾
Would love it if you included bible verses that support each view or can be interpreted to that view somehow. Great vid!
The problem is that "culture" doesn't simply mean "the current secular cultural movements that you dislike." The language we use is part of our culture, and languages are neither good nor bad, although differences in languages can affect how we express ourselves. Religion (even Christianity) is part of "culture." Art, whether a beautiful landscape that captures the workings of God's hand in this world, or the ugliest and most degraded item can be classified as "culture." The same is true of music or literature. A cultural movement can be sort-of positive and tend toward Christian values or virtues, or it can pull people away from godliness. What I'm saying is that it's impossible to reject all "culture," as intrinsically evil, because culture involves all the influences that surround us and mold us, even as benign as food (which God created to be good) or technology. There are many things, even patently secular things, such as medical treatments invented by atheists, that we can use to do God's work. This isn't new. The Jewish people and early Christians borrowed things from their cultures ("plundering the Egyptians"). For example, John used the Greek concept of the Logos in his writing. Historically, we are also told (Epistle to Diogenetus, mid-2nd century to early 3rd century) that early Christians were not "distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity." Yet the author goes on to say that Christians "display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life." Basically, Christians rejected many of the worst Roman values (violence, disregard for human life, the lust for power, dehumanization of certain groups, and certain views toward sexuality) while not making themselves stand out because of non-essentials. Of course, even in Paul's time defining nonessentials caused some problems, because people sometimes disagreed about grey areas, especially regarding vegetarianism and the eating of foods that had been offered to idols (and which was sometimes sold in the public meat stalls. Paul said don't ask; just eat it.) We still see this today in issues such as observing Halloween or other holidays, in clothing styles, and listening to secular music. Christians can have VERY strong opinions about these, and the most rigorous stance isn't always the "holiest." So, in the end, it looks like we have to follow the early Church, pray for discernment, and not judge those whose opinion differs from ours about things not directly connected with basic morality. Granted, this is NOT always an easy call to make.
I agree. With art specifically, as a creative, I love listening to music, watching films or reading literature that actually does something interesting with the medium. A lot of contemporary Christian media doesn't do that (although it is starting to improve, like with Angel Studios for example). So I struggle with only consuming explicitly Christian content. Discernment is key basically, I always try to make sure I'm aware of what's in secular content, both the good and the bad.
OH MYY I WAS LITERALLY JUST THINKING ABOUT THIS PRAISE JESUS
Orthodox see "the World" as "the Passions" or the accumulated outcome of humanity's cooperation with their passions, i.e. culture and civilization. So, if you can live in the world and not give in to the passions, great. But, many, like Saint Paul, have had to remove themselves from the world for a significant period in order to cleanse themselves of the passions before returning to "the world" to redeem it and share the Gospel properly.
DK if there are any others who are like this - I'm mostly no. 3 but I can be inclined towards no. 5 when I'm feeling optimistic. Rationally I am however a believer in natural law. I find it hard to speak with most modern Christians as they're usually #1,#2 or #4, however most Christian thinkers in the past like RZ says were realists or reformers.
Orthodox here. We would say it is all 5. Lord have mercy!
I have a mix view between the third and 5th view.
I accept the lesser evils of the world that we have to accept like, like in a war innocent people die, and you can't accept people into a country without any control, but I think we have to whenever is possibly improve things like accept a cease fire in which you loose territories in a war, or try to give money to foreign countries so they don't need to come nock in our doors for a job.
Appreciate this analysis, @redeemedzoomer
The Catholic Church offers a nuanced approach to the relationship between Christ and culture, blending several perspectives to form a coherent vision rooted in Scripture, Tradition, and the teachings of Church Fathers and theologians. Rather than endorsing one rigid model, the Church embraces a balanced engagement with culture, recognizing both the presence of sin and the potential for grace to transform the world. This Catholic position draws heavily from the insights of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI.
At the heart of the Catholic understanding is the principle that grace builds on and perfects nature (Aquinas). The Church believes that human culture-although tainted by sin-contains traces of truth, goodness, and beauty. These elements are not rejected but are elevated through the Gospel. This reflects the teaching that Christ’s role is not to destroy or replace culture but to fulfill it, redeeming what is good and purifying what is distorted. Thus, Catholics are called to engage actively with culture, discerning what can be embraced and what must be transformed in light of Christ.
The tension between Christ and the world is central to Catholic thought, as articulated by St. Augustine. In The City of God, Augustine describes history as a struggle between two cities: the City of God and the City of Man. These two kingdoms coexist throughout time, and while Christians must live in the world, their true citizenship is in heaven. This “paradox” means that Catholics must navigate both earthly culture and the Gospel-working for justice and truth here and now, while keeping their ultimate hope in the fulfillment of God’s kingdom.
This tension between nature and grace is not cause for retreat but for hopeful engagement. St. John Paul II exemplified this vision by emphasizing the need for Christians to transform society from within. He believed that every dimension of human culture-art, politics, economics, and science-can reflect God’s plan when oriented toward truth and love. His Theology of the Body demonstrates how even aspects of human relationships, when illuminated by grace, can manifest God’s design for human flourishing. Similarly, Pope Benedict XVI stressed the importance of "re-evangelizing culture", particularly in secular societies, helping them rediscover their Christian roots and values.
The Catholic approach thus avoids two extremes. On one hand, it rejects a complete separation from culture, as found in radical forms of monasticism or fundamentalism (Christ against culture). On the other, it warns against conforming to worldly values (Christ of culture), as this would compromise the integrity of the Gospel. The Church walks a middle path, recognizing the need for critical engagement-affirming what is good, challenging what is sinful, and always working toward the redemption and renewal of human culture through Christ.
Ultimately, the Catholic position aligns most closely with the idea of Christ as the redeemer of culture. Through His incarnation, death, and resurrection, Christ entered the human story and began a process of renewal that continues through the Church. Vatican II emphasized the role of the laity in bringing the Gospel into all aspects of temporal life, helping to shape the world according to God’s will. This vision reflects the belief that the kingdom of God is already present, though not yet fully realized, and that Christians are co-workers with Christ in bringing about that transformation.
In conclusion, the Catholic Church teaches that Christians must engage culture with both faith and discernment-recognizing the goodness within it, rejecting its distortions, and participating in its transformation. The Church's mission is to infuse the temporal order with the light of the Gospel, trusting that Christ, through His grace, redeems and fulfills all things. This hope-filled engagement offers a way forward, transforming the world in anticipation of the fullness of God’s kingdom.
As an orthodox christian. I was looking at the options and was like "I believe the 3rd one, but I don't actually know". I ended up being right.
I think the best view is to see ourslevs as Pilgrims and Travellers in a land that's not our own. We are in the world, but not of the world, because our true citizenship is in Heaven. Therefore, we need to be always looking ahead towards our ultimate destination, and not let ourselves grow too attached or distracted by the things of this world. A stranger in a forign country can undoubtly make a positive impact in his surrounding society while he lives there.. but he must remember that ultimately, he is on earth only for s short time, because Heaven is his true home.
In Eastern Orthodoxy there is currently a movement named "Death to the World", which teaches a rejection of worldly passions.
“Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.”
- James 4:4 (NKJV)
I'd say I'm a bit of Christ Above Culture and Christ is Redeemer of Culture. Both make sense to me and act in tandem of each other. Christ Of Culture is great in theory but it's often dangerous for the church if the culture goes astray.
Jude 1:22-23 NKJV
And on some have compassion, making a distinction; [23] but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
For my own life, perspective 5 gives me the hope i need for me, maintaining an attitude of 1 because sin is a killer. Romans 6 23, for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
As a catholic, it is my experience that The Church upholds both the third and the fith view.
You can view it from the Daniel perspective. In the world but not of it. Redeem and being good to the world
It’s 5 . Matthew 28 post mill . The Old Testament says the age of church will be so good , people won’t even have teach their neighbour about the Lord they will already know him .
Interesting video...Maybe it is better to talk more about early christian, proto-protestant (John Wycliffe?), and protestant, belief in predestination?
I found myself agreeing with some points of each view, and disagreeing with others. So I'm not entirely sure which of these views I hold to. Here are a few of my beliefs:
- Instead of following the trends of the world, the church should directly follow Jesus and the Bible in general. This often leads us to go against the culture.
- The church should be a driving force behind changing whatever culture we can.
- The way we do this is by changing as many individual minds and hearts as we possibly can. In other words, the church grows through word of mouth.
- Christians in high positions should use their platforms to promote Christ. And all Christians should promote Him in whatever avenues He has given us.
- On some aspects of culture, such as fashion trends or popular sports or games, individual Christians can choose whatever they like, but the church as a whole should not take a side.
- The earth is a sinking ship that will continue to get worse until the end of the 7 year tribulation period described throughout Revelation.
- The rapture is literal and will be the catalyst that allows the tribulation to kick off. The Millennial Kingdom, the final battle, and the final judgment are all also literal and will happen in immediate succession to the tribulation.
So, dear commenter, which view would you say I subscribe to? I would guess it's probably one of the last three.
sounds like a death cult
The fathers also taught contrary to the retreatist error of the anabaptist Amish:
Clement of Alexandria, "For not the righteousness that comes from isolation is great, but that which is exercised through contact with the world and yet is untainted by it... A Christian is not one who hides away, but one who lives rightly among others, that through him many might be saved" (The Stromata, VII)
Augustine tells us, "For we were saved to proclaim the gospel, not to hide away... Therefore, let no one say: 'I will live quietly and in peace with myself alone.' You are sent for the salvation of others." (Letter 185, to Boniface)
John Chrysostom says, "Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. There is nothing more chilling than the sight of a Christian who makes no effort to save others." (Homilies on Matthew, 15)
Justin Martyr rightly says, "We do not flee from the light of public life, but we are made more worthy by our faith to engage with it. We live in cities, we take part in civic life, but we do so as those transformed by Christ, bearing witness to Him in all we do" (First Apology, 14)
The ancient epistle to Diagnetus says, "For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe... But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners... They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven"
I’m kind of in an alternating state between the “Christ against culture” view and the “Christ above culture” view because I often hate the world when I look and see all the vice in the media, but when I feel encouraged to engage politically, I have some hope that Christ can make the culture better.
Ty for posting this because I have a midterm on it tomorrow
Best of luck 🫡
going to youtube for midterm answers is so damn lazy.
@@fakename-r7q hey sooooo I’m a long term subscriber of rz and watch all of his content anyway, he just so happened to be discussing a topic I had an test on the next day. I had already studied for hours before watching this video. Thanks for being rude tho!
@@rachaelwilkerson6723 ohhhh a long time subscriber? wow that changes everything.
you must be homeschooled or private school. normal kids dont have midterms on niche christian bs like this. kinda sad how much of your formative years have been wasted on this
@@fakename-r7q I don’t think it’s sad, I really enjoy learning about church doctrine and history :) and yes I go to a private college and am taking a worldview class.
Small correction: some things were set up by God for us, and we cannot redefine it (this is Christ above culture). So Fr. James Martin can't say 'Pete Buddiditch is married' because while the humans think he is married, he actually isn't because he is 'married' to another man, which is mutually exclusive from real marriage. This is why annulments exist: they aren't Catholic divorce; they are simply acknowledgments of an invalid marriage. That is to say, some things God created and sets standards for that we try to cooperate with.
I like the bowtie. Bowties are cool.
the world is thy ship, not thy home
1: this is fundamentally unhealthy, unless you're a monk and you're doing it for the sake of the Kingdom. In other words, you're not retreating from the world for your own sake, but for the sake of the church. Then this can be holy but again only in the context of the greater Kingdom of God
2. Anathama sit
3. Yes
4. Oh sweet summer child
5. The Catholic church would also agree with this. Think of all the universities and hospitals we establish. Also, the whole Christendom project was about transforming the culture. So I think three and five can be held at the same time.
The world is dark and dirty and is our duty to be lights and clean it up.
Nice. I’m sure I’m not the first person to say that you might end up finding yourself Catholic…
Keep up the good work, and thanks!
The world has a malleable aspect to it , we can not escape "the world" whist we are hear, its spirituality where we put our feet and what way we face. In my opinion if semantics are more important than application that is folly as wisdom requires application and its duty and partly perogative of how , its OK to get to the bottom of semantics in talking with passion as long as the fruit is tasty.
I love these videos.
The Amish would have more of a “two kingdom” concept, just with a very separated implementation. It’s more of a rejection of specific 19th and 20th century ideas such as modernism, techno-progress, and human reasoning. More liberal Amish groups (like mine) have less of a separated view apparent, and the two kingdom view is more apparent. And in defense of that view, the point is in the methods used to transform the world - religion is upstream of culture, so therefore we should focus on changing the world up there, not wasting time meddling in the downstream effects.