Chasing Harley top end noise and Rocker Arm Endplay Cutter Tool
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2016
- Since we made this video we have found a better way to cut the clearance for the .02 shim, using a stationary benchtop sander with different grits of paper.
It is described better on our web page.
rockerlockers.com/wordpress/?p...
We buy our shims on E-bay, they are for the Shovelhead motor.
Do a search for Harley rocker arm shims and you will get several, make sure you buy the .02
We have had mixed results with shimming the rocker arms, some bikes it helped, others not at all, the best results is with installing the Rocker Lockers to eliminate the rotation of the shaft hitting the bolt. The Rocker Lockers also help eliminate most cases where the push rod was rubbing against the pushrod tube, by better positioning the rocker arm assembly.
If you have any questions do not hesitate to contact me at Harley_cruiser@yahoo.com
www.ebay.com/itm/HARLEY-SHOVE... 
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This is by far the best video about TC88's valvetrain noise and how to fix it on youtube. You rock.
I truly appreciate the Video, I think we've all been there chasing the ticks... I eventually got some roller rockers in and adjusted my pushrods a quarter turn tighter than spec. Twin Cam 107ci, ported heads oversized valves, 10.5:1 compression and S&S 585 cams, plate, and pump, S&S crank welded and truer by darkhorse. The motor is as quiet as it's ever going to get, some valve train whisper when it's hot but all in all pretty quiet.
Johnson Lifters did for me in Evos and Twin Cams! Never an issue since!
Clever method, thanks for making this video !
My 2002 FLHR makes this little noise, but I'm not worried about it unless it gets real loud. After all, the ancient panheads I rode in the 70's were announcing every single moving part to the world. Compared to that, the Twin Cam is super quiet.
I've shimmed two bikes using rocker arm shim for shove heads. I always measure the end play before disassembly with each valve fully open at the non-load end. Check end play assembled because the rocker support will distort when unbolted. Generally, I find total end play less than .020", which is within H-D tolerance. This is fine for stock cams; but, a high-lift cam with fast ramp will slap the rocker arm against the support when the valve closes. A .010" shim will get the slop down below .010" that makes a world of difference. Shims have been holding up well, no problems with 30k miles.
A Simple Inventor which solved my twin cam noisy COMPLETELY THANK YOU SIR!
One of the best videos I’ve seen. Great job
Good info! My bike isn't a Harley, it's a Gilroy era Indian with the PP100 Indian engine. It always had slight top-end noise, but I thought it was normal. I went into the rocker box once when I developed a loud ticking....probably a collapsed lifter after I ran it hard one time.
But anyway, the engine is an Evo design, but the rocker base set up is different....I had one off already. I never thought of the shaft to bolt maybe clacking....this is teaching me to be more methodic in troubleshooting.
Thanks!
P. The EVO rocker arm assembly is different than the TC, it is one piece instead of two but suffers the same flaw. The bolt holes are larger and since it is one piece the inserts have to be longer and fatter. And yes this is a problem they have. D&K also sells the Rocker Lockers on the web page listed under the video. I would start with the insert first and check the end play at the same time. We have found most problems wete solved with just the inserts. The EVO is a great motor if I was you I would keep it, and only get rid of it if you are buying a new Indian. Those are really nice, HD has some stiff competition from them.
Where can I buy the cutting tool ?
Thank You 🙏
great video
Harley 2017 quality = AMF Harley quality.
What would be the explanation for placing the new thrust washer on the NON LOAD side side? I may be wrong but it makes a lot of sense to me to place a of hard steel made thrust washer on the LOAD SIDE rather then the opposite. Please advise. Thank you.
what material did you use your washers from ?
is it really worth all the trouble for a few thousandths of extra clearance..
THANKS for taking even more of ur free time & posting the time consuming, hard learned info.
much appreciated
heat, we had mixed results with shimming the end gap, it helped on some bikes not on others. We found that most top end noise was coming from the rocker arm shaft rotation and that the Rocker Lockers solved that. We also found that centering the plate with the Lockers also eliminated a lot of the side load on the rocker arm and that that helped with the end play noise.
We still have people doing the modification but since they are also installing the inserts the results are skewed.
We now recommend using a stationary sander to cut the rocker arm down instead of using the cutter on the towers. The results are the same and it is a little faster, and a tool that is handy for other uses.
i see...thanks
I have a question. How much do you charge for that?
My 2013 Streetglide i dont notice any valve train sounds. Maybe i got a good one. I had a chopper with a rebuilt evo motor and i could hear the valves on the highway with ear pligs in, sounded like a sewing machine. It never bothered me but i nev took it apart 2 c the amount of play. Are some bikes just fit better then others? I might ad Jimms Cro Moly Rockers and Solid Cro Moly push rods and S&S lifters just for fun and will look at all these tolerances you show here. I would be doing it as a hobby type project with a little performance gain.
Delusion we have found through feedback and research that most HD top end noise is caused by the rocker arm shaft rotating and hitting the bolt. This problem is taken care with the installation of a set of Rocker Lockers.
The after market plates and rocker arms have the same problem since they need to fit the current HD bolt pattern.
The Rocker Lockers do several things, they lock the shaft so that it does not rotate and also does not move back and forth. It also center the rocker arm plate in a better position. Without them the plate can be installed twisted, this can put a side load on the rocker arm push rod and that side load actually moves the rocker are back and forth. My 01 fat had 160k on it before I invented the Rocker Lockers, the plate had been off several times and I had three different wear patterns on my rocker arm feet. This is because the plate had been mounted in a different position every time. The Rocker Lockers solve this. Not all bikes need the Lockers installed, if the bike is quiet then leave it alone. This problem usually shows up with mileage or after the rocker arm plate has been removed and installed. Then it is a good insurance to install them. I adjust the end play on my personal bike but found that it really did not help much but I do like to eliminate that possibility and to look else where for any tick.
There are a bunch of places that can cause a HD to tick, from worn lifter bores to bad lifters. Some of these ticks are harmless just annoying some are potential problems especially if they start to get worse.
Here is the Rocker Locker video.
ruclips.net/video/2TgYZPvAPTs/видео.html
@@harleycruiser4331 Ok, thanks, ill put em in if i take my bike apart for sure. Thanks
Are the rocker box in play cutter kit and shims still avalable
Daryl Starnes, no we have found a better way to cut the clearance by using a stationary sander and cutting the rocker arm instead of the tower. It is explained here on our web page. You can get the shims on ebay, they are for the shovel head rocker arm, you need to get the .02. rockerlockers.com/wordpress/?page_id=176.
You can get the shims on ebay, they are for the shovel head rocker arm, you need to get the .02.
Do a search for "harley rocker arm shims"
hello! can i instal the rocker inserts without removing the rockets?
Antonis, yes you can, however the rocker arm assembly must be loose so that the shaft is able to turn or the inserts will not pull in, they will mushroom. Since the rocker arm assembly needs to be loose it is much easier to go ahead and remove the plate and do it on the work bench, something we have always shown in our videos.
How about just taking it off the the rocker arm itself?
Charles, yes you are right you could machine the end of the rocker arm, as a matter of fact I did play around with that, problem is the arm is hardened and using the sanding disk just took too long.
One of the You-tubers suggested using a sanding station/belt to do the job and I think this is an excellent idea. You would need to keep the arm fairly square, so need some sort of a guide or jig. The rocker arm is not perfectly square as I mentioned in the video, so in all honesty feel it is not critical to get it exact.
(But close is nice;-)
The object is to get the clearance for the thicker shims so different ways to do the same thing.
One thing that I did NOT mention in the video is cutting on different sides of the plate or arm to move the arm/push rod over for additional clearance when you have a rubbing push rod. Of course you want to keep in mind the centering of the arm on the valve stem but, this could help on bikes where the push rods are rubbing.
(rubbing of the push rod tubs is especially a problem with some types of adjustable push rods that are thicker than stock rods.)
However you still need to put the shim on the non-load side of the arm.
Thanks for the feedback and if you play around with it please let us know how it worked, the object of the video is to share information.
Steve, Harley Cruiser.
Howdy can you link or define the tools used and availibilty of them? Also where to get the shims?
I've been tinkering with mine, and was looking for a harned sprin wave washer to fill in the gap on the rockers end play and a shoulder bolt for the shaft rotation. Then this week decided to look online and see if anyone else was tinkering too. I see they are, and using using the brass inserts, and then I find this video for the hollow coin sound the end play causes. Thanks ahead of time.
todd, email me at Harley_cruiser@yahoo.com.
The end play cutter is still in the experimental stage and we are looking for people to test and report back the results. The cutter comes with the .020 shims, however you can also get them on ebay.
The problem with the wave washers are that they are so thin and like I mentioned in the video, wear through and drop into the motor, that is why I developed this cutter to use thick enough shims so that does not happen.
As far as the shoulder bolts there are none available they would have to be custom made and the expense is prohibitive. The Rocker Lockers do the same job at a fraction of the cost and are also included with the tool to test.
If the aluminum grows/ swells with heat then how does that increase rocker shaft end play? Seems it would tighten up. I’d see valve lash increase if it had solid lifters but the rocker shaft pilars/ mounts seems if they grew with heat that the end play would tighten up because they are to the sides, left an right of the rocker arm !!
The aluminum plate expands more than the steel shaft and rocker with heat. Aluminum expand almost twice as much as steel. Getting it too tight is a problem when it's real cold on start up.
@@harleycruiser4331 but the aluminum expands yes so why would it expand away rather then towards. You can picture the rocker shaft towars you’d think if they exspand then they would get tighter with heat. Expand in all directions
@@harleycruiser4331 I made it to 3 thou just waiting on another part. But still don’t make semse
i'm with you seems ass backwards to me
What year yoinwrkn on because on my 1997 Harley sportster 1200! The non load side is the same on both witch is the valve side and I know that because with just the rocker box cover off the feeler gauge slides in on Borge intake and exhaust on the valve side and does not slide in on the push rod side. Does that not seem correct? I’m about to shim mine and I don’t want to do it wrong
The sportster is four cam so the rocker arm push rods are not at a angle like the twin cam motor so yes there is no load side on the sportster.
@@harleycruiser4331 I appreciate all help. I’d say there is a load side and not load side. I’m able to slide .016 feeler gauge next to ea rocker on the valve side and it’s tight tight on the push rod side. This morning I’m wrkn on bringing that down to as close to .003 as I can. I have a pack of .015 shims to wrk with and I plan on putting them on the valve side of the rocker. I currently can slide the shims in on ea rocker on valve side on front cyl and almost can on Back cylinder witch is lil tighter around .012 and .014. But all said an done I’m shooting for .003 and going to place shims on valve side. That all sound good??
@@harleycruiser4331 I’ve done full 1275 build and rocker lockers. An when bike starts cold it’s silent and when warm it’s a little to noisy for a 4,000$ build so plan is to fix endplay.
Hello. Do you have a similar solution for the M8 rockers ? Thx
The m8 has a different design, I'm not aware of any problem it's having.
@@harleycruiser4331 I can promise it's the same fu..ing tik gringe noise with it. A lot of cases everywhere. And with the four valves to move, it arrives hearly.
Where do you get the .020" thick shims.
You can get them on e-bay, do a search for Harley rocker arm shims. They come in several thickness be sure go get the .020
They were used on the shovelhead motor.
you don't get them , do not do this to your bike .the ticking comes from not having roller rockers and buy some rocker lockers , this will stop ticking .the back and forth movement these shims are trying to get rid of is no big deal .
The lockers are for the shafts the rockers ride on. This shim fix reduces lateral movement of the rocker itself. Considering hydraulic lifters are employed, there shouldn't be any real noise coming from the finger-to-valve-stem contact. Rollers won't change that. The nice thing about this shim idea is one can better locate the rocker-to-valve-stem relationship.
Rocker locker didn't help my ticking even after replacing the lifters, cams,,oil pump, and cam plate. I have had the ticking from a new bike.
can i send you mine to do like this??!
yes, email me at Harley_cruiser@yahoo.com and I will send the information to you.
sent you an email
lol...me too
Where can I buy the cutting tool ?
Sincere thanks.
Steven we do not make the tool anymore, we found that using a bench top stationary sander works just as good and is a useful tool to have. Instead of removing material from the tower you shorten the shaft.
Just keep tract of how much you take off.
Where can I get the end play shims?
Patrick you can get them on ebay. After a lot of testing and feedback from viewers we have found that most top end ticks are eliminated with the installation of just the Rocker Lockers. They do two things they take up the gap and stop the rotation of the shaft hitting the bolt and they also center the plate so the rocker arm push rod is at an angle.
We feel that this is what was causing any back and forth that was causing any extra noise. We suggest that you install the Rocker Lockers first then see if any extra work is needed. The Rocker Lockers are easy to install and easy to remove if necessary. If you have any problem doing that let me know.
www.ebay.com/itm/HARLEY-SHOVELHEAD-SPORSTER-ROCKER-ARM-SHAFT-SHIMS-020-1966-1985-10-PACK/112149717540?hash=item1a1ca4e224:g:jwYAAOSwd0BVukaQ
@@harleycruiser4331 I did install the rocker locker sleeves but I noticed the end play and measured it and it could use shimmed also, it did get quieter but still have a slight noise still
Patrick Mastramico same here, rockers lockers helped but still there is some end play noise.
Shimms found on ebay are for old model. Could you please point me to the link for this shims that could fit on electra glide 2014?
Thanks!!!
@@elyuni8107 the shims for the older shovel head fit the twin cam, the shaft are the same size.
Harley Cruiser thank you so much!!! Been searching for sizes and videos. I got all the parts, was just waiting to find the shims to put all together and replace the ones i have on the bike now. Thanks again!
honda c90 step thru is more hi tech ffs.. this is like my royal enfield 1953 bullet
Rocker Lockers didn't help my ticking problem.
Good boy Ringo, I'm sure you realize that there is a dozen places that Harley's can make a ticking sound, we state this over and over again that Rocker lockers do not cure all ticking sounds. Rocker lockers address a specific flaw in the design of the rocker arm assembly that has been overlooked for years that cause a extremely annoying tick. Not all bikes make this rocker arm tick. Where is your tick coming from, have you put a stethoscope on it?
@@harleycruiser4331 .... When Rocker lockers first came out they were saying this fixes the ticking in your Harley .
Later after many customers found this not to help they came up with other fixes.
So yes , in the beginning we were told this was the cause. If I knew where the ticking was coming from , like other riders we would fix it.
I have changed hydraulic cam plate, cams, lifters, installed these bad ass rocker Lockers and now I'm putting adjustable push rods. No, I have been chasing the problem
with buying parts . I changed the cam plate & cams with new lifters. I'm only changing the push rods cause a lifter is bleeding down and I need to go back in.
I'm a mechanic and understand that no auto should have a ticking valve train. In my opinion it's the rocker arms in the Harley that cause the ticking but the price for the nice arms
are over the moon so I'm not changing them. I call it HARLEY JUNK!
@@goodboyringo9716 We have never claimed that Rocker lockers cure all harley ticks, we have other on the forums who have said that they will, but not me, not my distributor. We do call this particular tick the "harley tick" in our videos because it is specific to the Harley flaw, and yes it does cure that. On our web page, on my distributors web page we specify and have always said they do not cure all harley ticks, cam, lifters, cam chain, etc.
Have you been in the head yet, could be a loose valve guide.
I still have a tick on mine, like you have changed everything over the years. Mine is wore lifter bores, 200k on the motor it's not bad enough for me to worry about.
@@harleycruiser4331 ... I bought my bike new in 2000 it has 27,000 miles . No I haven't removed the heads yet but I may do a 95 or 98 on it in the future. I'll be removing the lifters in a week or so to check them and install quickie push rods . I may replace with S&S lifters if I find a bad one.
All unnecessary work.
Simply install the rocker lockers, the sanding, drilling and measuring is ridiculous even for Harry Potter.
I thought more noise saved lives..
The Harley exhaust note sounds awesome!
All other noise is annoying and makes you worry, about possible down time, for cost of repairs on your ride.
(That's my situation, when I hear a noise out of the ordinary!!..lol..!!)
pretty kweel fix! i think they make a wavy washers that would work best. just athought.
larry
Larry thanks for the comment, the problem is with the clearance, and the thickness of the wavy shim, it would be so thin that it would wear out every easy and that is the problem with any thin shim. You would still have to clearance to make it fit.
And the size is a problem, like all things HD does they don't make things standard size, the ID would have to be the same as the rocker arm shaft, and that is a odd size.
We are still testing using the stationary sander to clearance the rocker arm and that is working really well, actually much better than the end cutter shown here in the video.
I have not had any time to make a new video showing how that is done, but hope to get some extra time in the near future.
wtf ,are you kidding .I would never ever do this I put S&S roller rockers in my bike along with the rocker lockers .no more ticking sound and more horse power .
I put Jim's in mine and on my latest tear down found I had 0.014 endplay. What he is doing has nothing to do with what rockers are on the engine. It has to do with them traveling side to side.
You didn't gain much horsepower by going to rollers. Some but, not enough to tell by riding.
I would rather buy a whole new assembly at the dealership then go through this bullshit of Shimming
The problem is that the new assembles are just as bad as the old ones. I have mentioned several times here in the reply's that the majority of times the installation of the Rocker Lockers has solved most top end ticks. This video is for those who want to take the set up one step farther and get the end play into specs. Setting the end play has helps some not others.
don't want engine noise on a harley? just install some thunder headers and the engine mechanical noise goes away, worked for me. I always thought it was normal for harley engines to whine, clunk and rattle. It's called character. I'm guessing the Millennial generation don't like harley noise.
twcaldwell1951 You were doing fine until that millennial statement implying we are snot nosed whiny pansies who do not know what a Harley is supposed to sound like. First if the 51 in your profile was when you were born I am older than you. Second these are not normal noises, especially the shaft rotation and hitting the bolt, this is a very annoying sound like metal on metal, it sounds like a bad lifter. When I have a sound that is not normal ( and I have enough miles to know what is normal, just rolled over 200k on my bike) I fix it before it leaves me on the side of the road. If your solution to an abnormal sound is louder pipes, you are not touching my bike or even giving me advice. If you think these sounds are normal then you have been riding with loud pipes too long and need to turn up your hearing aid.
@@harleycruiser4331 For your information, I have been riding since I was 8 years old. I have owned more bikes that cars, probably by a factor of 4. I know the difference between normal and abnormal noises. My comment was pointed at the wanna-bees. If you take exception to my opinion, so be it. The only thing in your comment I agree with is I probably do need to turn up both of my hearing aids. Thanks for your advice. Oh, and another thing, if you are older than me, you ain't no millennial, you be a baby boomer or a post-war cohort. Also, I am a retired mechanic of better than 40 years.
@@twcaldwell1951 Yea, B boomer, 47. I’m not quite to the hearing aids stage yet, I’ve been wearing ear plugs for the last 100k miles and trying to save the last. Since you are a retired mechanic you will understand, that when I made this video I was testing and perfecting the Rocker Lockers, I had people ask how to bring the rocker arm assembly into factory specs. (Most arm assemblies were way past spec from the factory) We were seeing end plays as much as.019, factory specs were .003 to .012 (if I remember right.) What we have found for the majority of the time these end plays were not a problem, if you have seen my other video about Rocker Lockers, combined with the gap between the bolt and the plate, the plate can be mounted in a different position every time it is installed. It can be cocked/rotated and cause the push rods to rub, and put extra angle on the rocker arm push rod, causing the rocker arm to bounce when it opens and closes. It also causes multiple wear paths on the rocker arm foot. This is one thing that the Rocker Lockers address and we have found that when installed positions the rocker arm plate in the same position as the factory designed, and in most cases elevates the problems that the excessive end play causes. The end play tick, the worn rocker arm foot wear, and the push rod rubbing is not as bad as the rotation of the rocker arm shaft hitting the bolt. This tick is the worst and like I mentioned before sounds like a collapsed lifter or a lifter going bad. I think we can agree and be glad that very few millennials are in the Harley target market. LOL
yawn ...you mfrs can chill now, though I can't join the pissing contest yet, I need a few minutes after hanging out with your ol's while you were playing tickle his scrotum. but Harley's are pretty much a nit pick every little thing to your heart and wallets desire until it running as smooth and responsive as a Honda or you can ignore a lot of little things and just bang the thing down the road for thousands of imperfect miles,either way, I need a beer and a nap. Now carry on gentlemen
@@dont.ripfuller6587 my harley has been banging down the road for 20 years and is still in better shape than I am. How was your nap?
Mounting on S.E. head Harley 80 inch?
For the Rocker lockers that fit? Email me at autonews2@yahoo.com