Another important example of how this happens is that NT people pay way more attention to body language and tone of voice than autistic people do. So, an autistic person might say "I am in pain right now" in a flat, neutral voice without expression, but they get ignored because they don't "look" like they're in pain because they aren't screaming or writhing around. This can be especially damaging for children who might go to a parent for help but get ignored because they "look fine."
I rather severely hurt myself on a trampoline when I was younger and I was actually writhing around screaming at the top of my lungs and my mother who hadn’t seen me yet thought I was just overreacting??? So she took longer to come and help me? SHE ADMITTED IT. TO MY FACE? It honestly shocked me. Not to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I agree that that’s very true.
That... explains a lot, for me (Aspergers). When I was 10 or so, I broke my arm. Fell off a piece of playground equipment and it snapped clean in half-- but it took a WEEK before anyone believed I was even hurt. The camp nurse told my parents I was fine, and they believed her until they eventually noticed me wincing when the car hit a bump.
[me walking in calmly from the garage to inform my wife that I would like her to please drive me to the emergency room because I can't drive myself, having just drilled a hole most of the way through my hand]
I was passionately into philosophy as a kid. One day in school I told a girl I used to hang out with about Schrödinger, and when I stopped she said "Emma. I stopped listening and I just don't care. I don't understand a word of what you just said." I decided then I'd stop trying to tell people about what I was reading. But that resolve made me feel a bit lonely, so I looked a little extra silent one day, and my mom asked me what's up. I said "I can't find anyone to talk about philosophy with", and she responded I should try to cultivate more normal interests, something that the other kids liked too. I continued to hang out with the girl, and we sometimes watched The Vampire Diaries at her place which I found confusing and boring, I didn't really get it at all. I was slow on social things. Then one day she asked me if we were friends, and I thought for a minute and answered thoughtfully "No, I think we're acquaintances". Then she stormed off crying. After that I worried that I was a bad friend, and that I ought to change myself to get friends. But I kept finding that painful and awkward, so largely I just continued to engage in my interests alone.
That was more then 10 years ago, and I've matured a lot since then. Obviously it influenced me a lot for a while, and I got the mistaken idea that *no one* had niche interests. That's obviously false. I learned instead - just like everybody else has to learn - that there's a balance to navigate from when you're meeting someone for the first time, until you know someone well: The rules change as you get to know each other. You know what interests you share and which you don't. Sometimes you'll befriend someone you share interests with, and other times you don't share interests but you just like each other anyway. Most of my friends I don't share interests with and thats ok. I try not to rant to the ones that don't share the interests, because that's not fun for either of us. I'm still in the habit of defaulting to digging into interests on my own, because it's easier. But it doesn't mean I never share them. Mostly I don't even try, but sometimes, if it seems relevant, I'll mention my interest in the conversation, and mostly it's like they don't really get it, or they do get it but they just dont know what to say, and thats ok. And sometimes they'll get it and agree, and that's nice obviously. But it's also sorta meh. The only amazing thing is when they have something interesting to comment. When that happens, it's a wonderful learning experience and feels like bonding in a different way than when you're just echochambering (agreeing). But even then, it's over quickly. I'll often only have a few comments or questions in return before I say something like "wow, i can see that, that's a new perspective, I learned something new, how exciting, thank you" and then I'll feel satisfied for days or weeks, while - once again - returning to engage in the interest alone. And that's ok. And I don't think that experience varies that much between autists and neurotypicals tbh. Even neurotypicals change their behavior according to who they're with.
@@emmar9104 I kind of wish we'd somehow been in the same town/city because I was also a nerd with niche interests (paleontology, geology, nuclear science, and science-fiction), but I would have LOVED to listen to you talk about Shroedinger. (it's 50/50 if I can sit down and focus to read something but I'm VERY good at listening to people talk about things they're passionate about even if I don't have a personal interest in it at that time. I might even have "caught" an interest in philosophy from you like I caught one in history from my teacher, hahaha) I'm lucky that my dad and I both seem to have the same thing that's different with our brains, so I had him and his own friend group as conversation partners. It's made some of my social skills suffer, but... I wish I could travel back in time and let you borrow my dad, I bet he would have been thrilled to talk philosophy with you. I wish you the best in occasionally meeting other philosophy nerds to have fun conversations with!
I totally get it, but as an NT, I feel there is more responsibility on me to understand my ND husband than there is for him to understand me. I believe this needs to be a reciprocal learning and understanding.
It may feel that way, but usually as a ND, we tend to do endless amounts of research and experimenting to understand the NT world. I'm sure if you looked into it, he's putting in just as much effort as, if not more effort than, you in this learning and understanding process. However, he is a man.. which.. actually men (especially white) tend to have less of a need and desire to mask and therefore this could really be the case for you.
My husband, who is diagnosed AS. Refuses to do any research on AS. I have done endless research on AS for the last 10 years. When i try to share the infor with him, he gets stressed and still in denial.
That moment when a neurotypical person assumes you're lying to them because no one is that honest. No one just SAYS the thing. And now they're angry with you because you "blatantly lied" to them and you're standing their angry and confused as to why you're being called a liar when you told the truth. Like, I know the meaning of the words coming out of my mouth... they directly and literally describe your honest response... Like, how do you rephrase to make something clearer than the direct and literal words you mean?!?
NT or not, that's just fucking stupid. Whoever you're talking about needs to learn to meet people at their level and acknowledge that "This individual I'm taking to is just more honest and verbose than most people I've met". Pretty simple
Metaphors and similes help me. When I feel too angry and like I’m going to blurt out things that can really offend someone I inform I need some time alone and say I will come back once I’ve cooled down. Just like us NT can get triggered so sometimes it’s not always about us, the tone, word choice we use or our facial expressions when we communicate.
This is another one of those "why did I only get diagnosed 8 months ago and spend my life in misery?" moments. You explain things so well. This explains why so many of my relationships, romantic, platonic and family, have been so challenging. I wish I could go back to my childhood and show my mum your channel. Sadly at 37, it's a bit too late.
Join the club. People suspected but I didn't think I was like the few rambling low functioning autistics I knew that were at the full "special needs" level. My sister who has a psychology degree (proper one, 4 years of college with honours) bought the subject up again last week. It appears that I have 3 or 4 aspects of very high functioning autism. Finally my social difficulties that I could never get past are getting understood. I'm one of these people that can master almost ANYTHING from plumbing to sewing to electrical and basic electronics right down to difficult to propagate and grow cacti. And I could never understand why I couldn't seem to master some social things or would be left out in social groups like churches. I would force myself into social situations again and again like "I'll learn this crap if it kills me trying". Never understanding why it was so hard when I could master other things in a few months EVERY time. Now I find out. At age 42. Probably too late for marriage and kids.
I experience these issues the most with my parents. With them, I try to convey my needs/feelings, and they almost always immediately dismiss them, saying something like "no you DON'T need that, you're being ridiculous, oh come on" or things like that. They don't even want to *try* to understand or accept that I DO have those needs :(
Are they infantilizing you? That's often a problem with parents not recognizing that you're an autonomous entity and have your own feelings and needs and "mother knows best" isn't really true. (It's a silly advice to give, but you should watch the Tangled song "Mother Knows Best" (both the first and reprise) and see if that seems to fit your own experience.)
@@neoqwerty With them, it's more like "you just need to/should adjust and adapt like everyone else" without taking into consideration at all that that is MUCH more difficult for an autistic person :(
@@SamLovesMovies25 I have family like that. It's unfortunate because they think they're preparing me for how hard the real world is. But all they're really teaching me is to avoid people like them and be grateful not everyone is like that.
Thank you for this information. My husband who is an Asperger does this whole pause with responding back to what I asked or said and I thought he just didn’t want to respond. I did not realize until this video that he is trying to process what I have said or asked. Thank you for helping me to better understand my husband .
I have a minor in psychology and was married to an autistic man for 6 yrs. I listened to all his needs and what he needed, but he never listened to what I needed. My needs were always blown off.
I get it. It's not official but I think I was raised by autistic people. Or at least totally useless when it comes to emotional regulation. So, naturally, I have had a very hard time knowing how I felt, but I understand them perfectly. But what I needed emotionally and tried to convey landed on deaf ears. I understand that they couldn't help being the way they are but... It still sucks. And I'm glad you left. It's hard but we deserve someone who will put in some effort too. ❤
That's a human thing, not an autism thing. So many NT couples break up because of that, one giving 100% while the other person gives under 100%. It is what it is, people suck, some more, some less, some in some ways, some in others.
Yes to this. It is a very one sided relationship for many of us married to individuals with autism. I’ve met many people who claim it is not that way with their spouse. They should consider themselves very lucky
I was with an NT woman for eight years whose needs I listened to and took care of, but was rarely reciprocated. Just like you, I dated a HUMAN BEING who was a certain way. You were married to a jerk; you are framing it as if his autism is directly the reason he was a jerk. That's ableist, absurd, asinine, arrogant, yikes. You know what my problem with people like you is? You think that your experience is the standard, and not a RANDOM SAMPLE. If you married an autistic person, you married ONE AUTISTIC PERSON. You did not marry a representative of The Autists. Get your head out of the sand and listen to the world around you!
My husband was autistic and now I know why we had so many disagreements. I wish I would have found your channel sooner, it would have made things so much easier. My husband died March 1st, this year and I was talking to a high school friend who is also Autistic and really opened my eyes to Why David would respond in a certain way. Now I feel sad I get in contact with my friend until after My husband died. I feel so sad that this could have helped us so much. Thank you for your channel.
I am so thankful that not only did I randomly happen to come across this video of yours (having watched only one other video of yours, to date), but I am also extremely thankful to you for taking your time to create this video; this one may be game changing, not only for myself but also my (now) wife and many other people that can relate to this syndrome in their relationships.
I have learned over time that when something is important I get the best results by saying that. This is important. I need to say it so you understand it. I need to know you understand it even if you don't identify with it. It's been remarkably effective in my life. Both in feeling connected, and weeding out people who aren't healthy to be around. If someone isn't willing to try to understand what I'm feeling after being explicit about it... They aren't worth it in most cases.
i think this is literally what happened with my last relationship, and it was almost 8 years of this very problem getting more and more unignorable. Thank you for making this video!
Interesting angle. I always thought Cassandra Syndrome described the neurotypical person in relationship with the autistic person. It’s fascinating to think that both parties feel the same way… for different reasons.
Once me and my friends stopped playing games, stopped assuming things, and started to ask for clarification when something sounded harsh or confusing, our communication immediately improved drastically. Especially in texts.
The last time this happened to me, it was with my family. My sister and I live in the same city and our parents live over 1000 miles away. She has a large house with plenty of room to accommodate her family of 4 and guests. And I have a small 2 bed 2 bath. Which is big enough for me and any guests to stay comfortably, but not to entertain others on top of that. Our parents like to stay with me and visit her and the kids at their house. I came home from a really hard and exhausting day at work and had already told both my parents and my sister that I was not going to go to dinner that night as i just didnt have it in me to handle kids and crowds and I just needed to have a low key night at the house. So, while I was relaxing to music and reading, everyone decided to come to my house. Not even an hour after I told them all I just wanted to relax. I managed about 30 minutes of multiple loud simultaneous conversations and a crying baby before I could feel a meltdown building. It was all I could do to keep from screaming while I gathered my things to leave the house. As I ran out my front door and grabbed my keys I just said,"I have to get out of here". I managed to get coffee at a drive through before I finally had to park and just cry. While I was sobbing into my coffee, my sister called to ask," what's wrong?" LOL. I got so mad. I told her," it is apparent to me that it doesn't matter." And that," I'm upset. I just told everyone I didn't want to go out and that I needed to relax at home and their reaction to that was to bring the party to my place." And that, "I was really hurt by them ignoring me when I told them what I needed." And that I just needed to be alone and calm down. After a few hours of driving around in the rain(I couldn't even walk around anywhere!) I went home. My sister and her family went home and our parents had gone to bed by the time I made it back. And this last event, like all the others, was never talked about afterwards.
I put my autistic best friend through Cassandra Syndrome last year when we were discussing living together. He tried to tell me what he's looking for in a living space (close to public transit, wheelchair accessibility) and I never applied his needs in my searches, and he had no choice but to move on with plans without me. I realize that sometimes information needs to be drilled into my head in order for me to get the hint. Since it'd be nice to not dump that responsibility on others, what I'm trying first is to rerun conversations in my head, maybe even mutter them out loud, in order for me to absorb what other people are trying to tell me.
I lost the man I love from not knowing enough of autistic traits. He is undiagnosed, and he will not discuss it. I eventually educated myself, but it took to long. In the meantime, I made too many mistakes. Too many misunderstandings. I wish autism was better known and better accepted as an alternate normal. Thank you for all you do to educate the world. I wish I'd seen you 8 years ago.
I find it kind of bizarre, that only the NT partner is supposed to change their communication??? Dont you think NTs can also suffer from Cassandra Syndrome?
This is fascinating to me as someone just starting to understand the Au part of my AuDHD who is in a relationship with a non-ADHD autistic person. I can see ways we’re both struggling to understand each other, and I think this video will help! The note about communicating needs is so paramount, and I’m kicking myself for expecting my partner to detect my needs more when I know exactly what it’s like to not know what others want if they don’t come out and say it 😅 I have my own reasons for struggling to ask for what I need, but this is a good reminder that I’ll never get anywhere if I don’t practice asking more!
"Bears Vs Berries" is a hilarious dialogue that I witnessed between 2 friends who were able to converse at length without knowing that the subject they were talking about was different. Great video to help family who may be triggered by discussing these topics without being involved in the explanation! This has been a challenge for me as a nurse and husband because many people feel dejected by failed communication and it is difficult to move past this communication issue when it happens, autistic or not.
This is honestly good advice to all people in all situations, autistic or not. Be patient and don't assume things too quick. Say what you mean and communicate clearly. I think a lot of the problems in this world wouldn't exist if people just did this.
We feel things so intensely. When we have a core need, it’s usually a need that if not met, will lead to a cascade of distressing consequences. The dreaded adult meltdown. The inability to function and need to retreat into a soothing behaviour… thus decreasing productivity and goal achievement… The sadness that sometimes accompanies this aftermath is hard too. When I think I’ve explained my needs in nauseating detail and yet I either couldn’t express it in a way they understand OR my love doesn’t care. Both hard feelings
Your videos sometimes affect me profoundly, this explanation of Cassandra Syndrome is one of them. It wasn’t until I watched one of your videos about the many traits of autistic/Asperger people that I was stunned by the realization that my former husband has autism and nearly cried as this video caused me to remember when we were splitting up after 20+ years and he kept saying I didn’t understand him. I was beyond baffled and trying so hard but he was having so many angry outbursts and I was an older, first time mom to a toddler, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells. Definitely huge Cassandra Syndrome..but his affairs with employees killed everything and I was emotionally destroyed for a long time. That was 20+ years ago and we didn’t have a clue. My current hubby is also high functioning in a different way and again neither of us knew though we do now and I understand and respect our different brain wiring. I went through marriage counciling with both but the therapists didn’t recognize the autism either because these guys are so intelligent and successful in their careers. When the therapist doesn’t know that creates a nightmare for everyone because no one feels understood by the therapist either. That is all so sad to remember. So why was I drawn to these men? Haha, I wondered about this for the longest time until I realized, after one of your jaw dropping videos, that my mother has it too. Omg, that blew me away and explained so much about my childhood and my awful relationship with her. My husband and I joke that though we are so opposite in personality what we share in common was awful childhood experiences with our mothers. So many damn lightbulb moments.
I'm experiencing Cassandra syndrome as an autistic, borderline, gay man. I speak my mind, and the world reacts by telling me I'm delusional, wrong, and crazy. I'm also familiar with narcissism, so Cassandras tell the truth, and narcissists deny reality. There's the disconnect! Cassandra syndrome happens when awkward, ignorant people do tongue twisters with their words, which leaves me feeling confused and therefore unable to respond accordingly. I feel that I'm painted as crazy for failing to understand vague and ineffective communication. Healthy people communicate best with autistic people because autism is not a mental illness. Shoot the messenger applies to Cassandras!
Had no idea this was a thing, it explains a lot on how my past friendships felt apart to fiery ends. Tho in this case, it was more so me missing the cues from others due to my autism but them ignoring/or not understanding my words surrounding how i function best in relationships as well. Always tell people to let me know gently immediately when theres a personal issue and without fail everytime they never do it clear enough or only when its too late and i am on the defensive. Thank you for this. I feel it will help.
I started writing my husband messages so he can take time and consider the words and their meaning. It led to him feeling less or not attacked at all in comparison to him feeling being attacked ALL THE TIME
I definitely experience this. I've had arguments with someone in my family about the fact I didnt feel like I could make a trip to somewhere further than my comfort zone. He kept pushing the issue, comparing it to things I already do, arguing with me. I said I could maybe make the trip, but it will depend how I am on the day. If I am having a low-anxiety day, I'll probably do it. If it's high anxiety, it will be best that I don't for all concerned. I told him the process and way I think and the struggles I have. He told me it's "all in my head" (and ummm... isn't that the point?) and to "get over it", which I am sure is sage advice that a psychologist or psychotherapist would give. I proactively work through my mental roadblock and appreciate people's opinions but I absolutely loathe when I make my situation clear to someone who knows I have a condition and they don't even attempt to understand.
My father used to constantly attack me for my "attitude" and accuse me of negativity, totally out of the blue, and I never had the slightest notion of what he was talking about. I tried really hard to have a positive attitude and not be negative, but I may have tried too hard and come across as insincere and then I was accused of being sarcastic (which I definitely wasn't). As I grew up, I found this happened to me a lot in the outside world too, but only with people I didn't really know. I was well into my 30s before someone told me that my facial expression conveys these things. It never occurred to me, until then, that facial expressions were important or could be taken to mean particular things without any correlating verbal communication or other indicators. I wish someone had explained this to me as a child, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief.
This was very much a part of my life, both in growing up and being grown up. Mis-projected tone and emphasis and body language, along with mis-perceived emotion in what was said, was the combination "spark" that lit disputes and outbursts. After it was pointed out to me that I act or speak disrespectful and sarcastic "just like [family member]," I had to pause and self-examine and reflect on past experiences. "You know what--? I think you're right. That is what I learned when growing up. So, let's work together on improving our communication style. I don't want to sound angry, and I don't want to hurt you. You're not my enemy, and I'm not your enemy either." ... and that's also what led me to figuring out that I have chronic PTSD -- sporadic traumatic moments scattered through childhood started replaying in my mind. And that became my next special interest, learning how PTSD has affected me and how to heal the neurological wounds. I don't have to be as afraid of the "what ifs" of communication.
I do see this "not being believed" throughout childhood. It triggers me. No one listens & if it continues & escalates - then accused of being a hysterical female. I also wonder...if I'm simply surrounded by undiagnosed neurodiverse people. As time goes on & I discover the subtleties of my own neurodivergence...it's the entire family (even if related by marriage) haha sort of fun but sad at the same time.
This explains my communication issues in my relationship. And why some relationships works much, much better. And why sometimes it is easier when we have different native language can work easier since the natural language barrier can help overcome the neurodivers language issues. If you have to check if you use a word in the same way you check what do you actually mean with the words you choose. So yes the analogy of two different language are really appt. If communications seems un clear (from either side of the language gap) be patient and curious enough to ask for clarification, but since the other side might not know another way to say, start with explaining say "I think I didn't understand here, can you explain in another way?" If that is not possible, tell what you think you heard and see if the other person agrees with what you said. For everything dear do not assume that because a word has a meaning for you the other person has the same meaning attached to the word. Because lots of words has a lot of different meanings that often shift from one part of the country to another, from one family or friendship group to another and so on. And if miscommunication accusers go back over what was said, misunderstood in a emotional natural setting. And learn a way to communicate that works for your unique relationship. Go in to a neurodiverse relationship with the knowledge that over time you together need to create a relationship language that works for that unique relationship... that is at least how I have gotten it to work for me after a lot of frustration in a lot of relationships that broke down because of miscommunication.
I'm super confused, I just looked up Cassandra Syndrome because this video was really interesting to me and the definition I'm getting elsewhere is VERY different, like the opposite of what's described here. Elsewhere it's described as something the non autistic person (generally wife) experiences. That it has to do with partners seeing us without our masks and then not being believed by people who only see the mask? Not trying to cause trouble just not sure what I'm missing. If anyone knows more and cares to help I'd appreciate it.
That's what "cassandra" support groups do unfortunately. The term was initially coined by Maxine Aston as "Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder" or CADD and it was initially intended to blame all relationship problems on the autistic partner, not as way to describe the difficulties both partners go through in a neurodiverse relationship. Needless to say, the concept is both ableist and pseudoscience (CADD is not supported by any professional psychiatric body, nor by peer-reviewed academic research). There is article about it on RationalWiki, if you want to look it up. (For some reason, I can't link to it in the comments on this video because every time I do, my comment disappears. Probably some kind of spam filter.)
@@Jono98806 thank you SO much the video was so good and made a lot of sense so when I went looking for more info I was pretty disheartened by "you're autistic so it's your fault". I mean obviously we CAN be at fault for miscommunication but everything I found was very one sided. Thanks for taking the time to answer
I was drawn to this video by title alone because I had no idea “Cassandra syndrome” existed, and because of certain experiences I had as a child, I identified with the Greek story of Cassandra so strongly as a young person, I used Cassandra as a BBS (pre-Internet) handle. I literally named myself after her. I was so afraid of telling the truth and not being believed, I would not try to tell even people I was closest to some things that were very important to me, because I could not face the possibility of being dismissed, downplayed, “soothed” instead of taken seriously.
This is exactly the relationship issue I have with my parents. They do not understand how I work and they demand that I go and meet them on their turf. The fact that I do not know how to meet them there, causes frustration and alienation in THEIR side. Because they ALSO do not know how to meet me on my turf. Even something like 'meeting in the middle' is something that comes with great difficulty, great emotions and great frustration. DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO US Is a resentment thrown at me when discussions get heated. 'Yes dad. I know and your feelings are valid. Do you also understand why I struggle?' Guess who is (not) having therapy?
it's especially difficult tying to describe to neurotypical people how being neurodivergent in a world designed by and for neurotypical people feels like living in a bizarro world where nothing makes straightforward sense, only a convoluted and obtuse sense that looks absurd to us. It's maddening
Wow, this explains why my last relationship failed so badly. We both understood the importance of communication and tried really hard to be good at it, but at the end of the day it felt like he was misunderstanding or dismissing my feelings. And he never explained why he felt the way he did, so it didn't seem to make sense and I wasn't able to understand either.
I was married to my autistic husband for over 30 years before I finally figured out what the trouble was. I think I did a search on his behavior and, Voila! It helped me so much just finding that out, but he didn't accept it and after ten years, he still doesn't. When he starts a sentence in the middle of his thought. That's where I can lose it a bit. But I love him and after 40 years of marriage, I've learned to not get upset when he doesn't let me know the beginning of his thought. I do get frustrated still when I have to ask him question after question to try and understand what he's saying or what he's getting at. Sometimes I feel like one of those running translation experts. He says something that makes no sense, so I ask if that's the entire thought. Then he answers indirectly. He has a really hard time answering a question that requires a straight "yes" or"no" answer. Or he'll answer to something that I didn't ask about. Despite my frustrations, my faith has kept me hanging on, and I love my husband and he loves me. We also have major points in common. I think if love and faith are at the center, all the other stuff will get worked out. And I think it helps to follow the biblical principles of letting him lead ...within reason. 😅
Yes Yes Yes.....holy fuck......as a female with high functioning Aspergers I have struggled and raged over this very issue for years. Its been hell. Feeling like Im in a nightmare I cant wake up from. Ive tried communicating, no luck. I am a passionate person, and one thing that drives me crazy is apathy. I HATE it when people misunderstand my passion and focus for "being dramatic" and thus dismiss what I say or need, especially as a woman. Passion is more "accepted" in men, women are "expected" to be demure and passive. Hmmm, screw that. But the sexism and double standard is there. I dont believe in embellishment, I say exactly what I feel, even is thats intense.
Nocturna . Please believe me when I tell you I have shared very similar experiences and agree with many of your points. God IS love Nocturna. I am SO pleased you have found Him. Both of us need to heal from the pain and rejection of our past. Both of us have God's love and we also deserve the love from others. I actually agree that more onus needs to be in the neurotypical community to include, accept, love, value and cherish us. I really do. This very morning I was raging to them about that very issue! Even though I don't know you sis, I can perceive how intelligent, self aware, high functioning and increadably caring you really are! Don't let the hurtful words of others define you. You and your Creator know who you are. Love and regards, Cristina
@@cristinaroe2166 Yes, I know God is love. What Jesus did on the cross was everything. Without God I wouldnt be alive right now. Yes I have raged on many ocassions to NT about many things. Dont get me started...including that issue. I am very high functioning but part of that curse is not a soul believes I am Asperger's. But I guarantee you, 200% I never let others define me and never have. People can say all the hurtful words they want, I dont care. They matter nothing. Their opinions even less. Otherwise, I appreciate your kind words. Theyre unexpected. I feel the worlds turned into zombies. Surrounded by programmed NT who dont think critically and listen to the government instead of God. God be with you Christina, I can sense God has given you a kind soul. Cheers
Hello! My autistic partner made me aware of this video, thank you for sharing it. I think casandra works on the other side as well. I’m curious about the frustration so called „neurotypical“ partner experiences because of not being understood and seen by the autistic partner. I’m reading books, drawing graphics when he talks, watching, studying the nervous system… My level of patience is reaching buddha level… Will I ever be understood and seen by my autistic partner?
Oh my gosh a few years ago (before diagnosis) my username was cassandra complexity on a load of sites, wow.. didnt realise the experience was felt by other aspies.
I'm autistic but also have ADHD. I often forget to eat and I'm not a fan of cooking as I know there is food but I forget about it as it's out of sight out of mind add on top I live with family so the amount of food available is always changing. Well the topic came up one day with my brother and stepfather and I tried explain it to them and while neither got it my stepdad made me feel dumb and made it seam like I was full of it. The biggest problem I have is I wasn't diagnosed with my disorders until I was in my early 20's and it was more of "I think of have theses thing do I have them, yes to have them" sort of deal and I haven't done much more than that because I don't have a lot of money and the support for it where I live is lacking and I wouldn't know where to start and I also don't want to use it as an excuse. Thing is both me and my family don't fully understand how it affects me so I often get dismissed in my behaviour as "so and so who lives here had it worse than you and they're doing this thing here, you're just lazy" or "you're in your late 20's act your age" and it's extremely frustrating.
This is the first time I've heard of "Cassandra Syndrome". I think years ago I heard about the 'curse of Cassandra', and the first thing I thought of was if that was it a metaphor for somebody like me who gets accused of lying all the time because I don't make eye contact. Yet I tend to tell the truth and urban times are no here's physical proof and I said it called a liar cuz I'm not making eye contact.
I have adhd so I may have missed this but I have only ever heard Cassandra syndrome used to refer NT women married to men with undiagnosed autism, who arent believed by anyone outside the marriage when they say he seemed like he might be autistic (and all the problems in the relationship that might be caused by not understanding that).
I don't want to offend anyone, by asking this, but can this Cassandra syndrome also go the other way around? As a mom of 2 diagnosed children and a partner who isn't diagnosed, but where the suspicions of him being autistic as well are very strong( and he himself also suspects this!) I have a hard time being understood. Especially by my partner. When trying to convey my feelings and needs, I will often not be taken seriously and/or get shut down and ignored by him. Talking about feelings and difficulties (not just my own, but also when there are problems with our kids) just won't go well and usually ends in him melting down and most of the time screaming at me. I've tried many ways of bringing up these thingsAs a result I avoid burdening him as much as I can and try to resolve everything myself. Missing a partner who can complement our team, give me his (much appreciated) view on things.Not only is it a very lonely way of living and having a family, it is quite taxing. Emotionally I am drained. Now: having said that, I am not in need of pitty. I DO really want to know how I can get my potentially long time autistic partner to be more of a partner in our relationship, when talking about emotions and difficulties lead to him shutting down. I would really like some help with this....since he doesnt seem to be able to explain this to me himself.
What you describe here has been my experience with everyone I've ever known. I want to share information about Cassandra Syndrome with my friends so that I can start building better relationships with them. But when I look up "Cassandra Syndrome", most of the results feel like a perverse re-imagining of the idea in an anti-autistic light. I'm worried about those things polluting the discussion and turning them away from working with me on that double-empathy problem.
This video is actually a perverse reimagining of Cassandra syndrome - a syndrome that describes the allistic partner’s experience in a relationship with an autistic person - to retell the experience from an autistic point of view. Actually I don’t think it’s perverse at all, I just wanted to reuse your same language :P. I think in general autistic partners are understood very easily by the allistic partner because autistic partners tend to communicate their needs in a direct and clear way, whereas allistic partners absolutely do not. So the allistic partner feels invisible and devalued and abused. But it’s also the allistic partner’s fault for not communicating directly. It’s also the allistic partner’s fault for thinking they could ever get their relationship needs met from an autistic person.
@@Retrosenescent As an autistic person I can absolutely say without doubt that autistic partners are NOT understood very easily by allistic partners in general, at all. They only THINK they understand the autistic partner. This is usually because the autistic person often doesn't know how to explain many of their needs in a way the allistic partner would understand - and so they often learn to live with a lot of their needs being unmet as firstly, relationships are rare and hard to come by for most autistic people and they always have been; and secondly, they think its the norm - what, with being treated and conditioned from an early age that most of their needs don't matter, are ridiculous and are not that important and all...
My soon to be ex wife absolutely refuses to even try. I'm not sure why she married me when I'm a different ethnicity from her to begin with and have no interest in changing who I am to suit her. especially since she just ignores what I have to say unless it's normal, logical or agrees with what she thinks. Total waste of my time.
I didn't know that Cassandra syndrome was a thing but I definitely experienced it with my mom growing up where she just wouldn't listen to me and would treat me like everything I said was the Babbling of a toddler with no actual meaning. I felt like Stewie Griffin from Family Guy, speaking completely understandably to a friend group but completely ignored by my parents except for when it benefited them
I often bore the shit out of my autistic friend. He doesn’t like me telling stories about stuff that goes on in my life. I do it to engage and if I ask him what is going on, he barely says a thing. And then all of a sudden he starts talking (texting) like crazy, which I don’t mind. He refuses to talk to me on the phone. He says it makes him anxious. And he says I overwhelm him. Honestly, I also am high functioning autistic, and people can overwhelm me, but I listen. Even if it drains me. He isn’t big on listening. But we have been friends and on and off romantically involved for 14 years. I do feel hurt that I bore him. I just tell him I have a writer’s quirk for making everything a story. I grew up listening to my family. They are all like that. I don’t really write, but I have that kind of brain. I guess most people don’t get it and think I am being an egoist. At least my more severely autistic friend doesn’t keep picking at me or trying to change me. We have had our fights, then back off. Two autistic people have prickly relationships. I have them anyway with neurotypical. I am too blunt myself, and have a hard time understanding why some get offended or taken aback.
I told my boss 3 times the same thing about not being able to work that shift, so i ended up quiting after it wrecked me mentally. Yet she wouldn't believe me. and told me to work anyways.
This is all great information. But what about it being the other person feeling casandra syndrome and I’m the autistic? He’s laying out his needs for sexual intimacy and it’s a 7-10 days before my period starts and I want nothing to do with sexual stuff. I get overwhelmed with pmdd symptoms and he still pushes and pushes for sex to the point where he explodes in anger and frustration. This has happened every month for the last 3 years we’ve been together. So he’s stating his needs clearly and I’m either ignoring or saying no over and over because I’m autistic AND I have complex ptsd issues and abuse history blah blah blah. What do I do?? This is our current situation TODAY and it sucks
All good to say what you mean and mean what you said until the person takes offense by interrupting that as something else to the point you’re no longer discussing your point but rather how what you said affected the other person.
How do I get my partner to get screened?! He says he has ADHD (like me) which I remind him is "neurodivergent". I suggest he may be ASD and perhaps his kid too (and why is even more important to get screened so they both get the right therapies and meds), but I feel he still lives in the stigma that its bad to be neurodivergent :/ thus refuses to get the screening done ...
Check out more actually autistic creators until you find and learn more neurodiversity affirming arguments. Look up autism and adhd TikTok’s and how many people explain how getting a diagnosis to understand themselves made their lives better. I can’t tell you how man times I wondered if people would be better off if I wasn’t alive. Discovering and studying my individual needs relating to adhd and autism saved my life. Keep looking until you find what clicks for him, and for kiddo, even if you can’t get the evaluations, most day to day changes can be tried, and if they work, do them.
Cassandra in Greek mythology was fated by Apollo to utter true prophecies but never to be believed... not just to speak the truth and never to be believed. So here we have a syndrome defined inaccurately. A Cassandra complex matches the Greek definition and how I appear to people (because I read science news).
i'm not autistic, i have ADHD, but there's a similar disconnect between what i say and what's understood by other people. to take the toast example, my response might not be yes or no, but something like finland or guitar.
I came to RUclips looking for education on Dunning and Krugers Cassandra effect and instead I found this. Which is way better suited to what I was trying to learn. Weirdly enough, I've been watching your videos for over a month now, but havent in about a week. Yesterday I was watching presentations on the DunningKruger effect, today I search for the cassandra effect, and instead this video is the first result, and its the right video. Like, RUclips really got that one in one shot. To the point I almost feel like im being lead more than im walking my own path. Predestinate grooves and all that..
I started watching this video because I’ve been suspecting that my husband is on the spectrum but after hearing the explanation it sounds like IM the one on the spectrum 🤦🏼♀️ I’m so confused. Does this happen with ADHD folks too?
I'm on the spectrum, and my fiancee is likewise also on the spectrum. We are both ND. We both have issues with this, including when communicating with each other. Yikes, lol.
"Say what you mean" Like I haven't been banging my head against that wall for almost a decade.😭 I was cursed with having to join the family business when my dad had legal and health troubles, and my mom keeps playing riddles instead of talking clearly. And when I tell her something in the plainest, most obvious language I can muster, she insists on only listenning to half the words, and rearranging unto something that's only tangentially related. On top of it, she will straight up not interpret the words if she doesn't like the tone. (Which I can't control, it's something I've never been able to do)
I think I'm great at communication, but it could be so because as a child I was forced to translate for my parents. Often times, in arguments people get upset because I remember what they said and repeat it back verbatim (translation habit) posed as a question and they're like I didn't say that and I'm like yes you did, like 5minutes ago, what do want from me? Because you're clearly contradicting yourself.
I‘m autistic, my husband allistic. he recently realized that asking me what I want to drink for breakfast will lead to me freezing up due to the sheer amount of possibilities. so being a smart man he started breaking the options down into discreet categories like a flowchart: do you want something to drink? - hot or cold? - tea or coffee? also giving me time to decide in between the questions. we‘re adapting that in other situations as well. I would also like to bring up that our nt partners might end up feeling like cassandra at times too, if we fail to pick up on the cues that work well with nt people. I like the idea of meeting each other half-way - both people need to make an effort to make any relationship work. 😊
I really wish people listed options in that way. It's so hard to make decisions about broad topics, especially when I don't know what I want or where it'll lead. "Orange juice? Will it go with the food? Is it too sweet, will it feel bad in my throat? Sparkling water? Do we have any, will it be troublesome to ask for that? Tea? Will it make me too warm, which tea would it even be? Black tea gets bitter fast so should I make it myself if it's black tea? I don't think we have enough green tea, they like green tea so I don't wanna waste it... No wait, do I even want tea?" It never ends.
This is brilliant! I've often tried to explain people that my thought process is from the abstract to the specific rather than the other way around but I could not find a solution to bridge that. In many cases this may be what I have been looking for. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️
@@Gnomereginam By all means, have the green tea! I'll just get some more later. I can assure you it won't be "wasted" on you. And don't think sparkly water would be too troublesome. I don't believe for a second you're not worth making a little sparkly water for:) That said I actually do need to get some new tea lmao
I've found that instead of dismissing, I found that for the neurodivergent people in my life the phrase "Help me understand." has been a godsend. It allows for a deeper conversation, communicates my intention to listen and my desire to know more, and acknowledges the gap in my own experience all in one straightforward request.
A lot of the time I wonder why I even bother explaining things to people, when I take time to explain it in great deal, and then they behave as if I never said anything. It gives me the impression that the average person doesn't care, so I will just save all of the trouble and isolate myself. And then there are times when people ask me about something, and I am suddenly unable to communicate all of the details. It's almost as if my brain suddenly forgets what I wanted to say; but eventually I am able to find the words that I wanted to say, and then make sure to tell them what I need to say. But the funny thing is that, it doesn't even matter, because explaining everything doesn't seem to make a difference most of the time. And even though I am much more honest than the average person (I notice that an awful lot of people like to tell fibs to get what they want, and white lies), I still get treated like I am a liar, and that I am untrustworthy. And once I have time to process a situation, and figured out what I want to say (this usually happens during alone time), I will communicate my thoughts and feelings as clear as I possibly can, and then end up being misunderstood, where I ask myself, "How could I possibly have been more clear about it?" And people will even act like they understand (especially when they don't think that I am autistic, and therefore assume that I think the same way, and whatever I said gets perceived through THEIR lens, not mine. When they assume that we perceive something the same way, and they think that we're on the same page, then they continue writing their version of the story in their mind, and expect me to behave a certain way in the future. They expect me to do the things that THEY would do in a situation, and then they end up being totally perplexed when I don't end up dealing with things in a particular manner). I feel like, when people question my autism, and assume that I think like a neurotypical, it causes them not to try very hard to understand everything I am saying. It's as if they are telling themselves, "Oh, she probably just means this or that" and then create a particular story in their head, where they decide to stop listening to me explain all of my points of view. Why? Because it's literally just easier not to try and understand something that's complicated, and just come up with your own version. It's as if they never even heard me, where it's almost like talking to a wall. And the gaslighting that occurs afterwards, just WHY?!! I put in a great effort to understand where a neurotypical person is coming from, and ask many questions about how they see things, and I wish that they would do the same for me. It makes a person feel alone and lonely, even when they surround themselves with people (including family members). You give me enough alone time to think, and I can write down what it was that wanted to say (and watching videos like this gives me another way to explain what it is that I want to say; it gives me more words to explain it!). I tell ya, I believe that it's videos like these that save my sanity.
@@hannahk.summerville5908 Well thank God we have this little community here on RUclips, so that we don't feel like the only one in the world who has these struggles 🙂.
Before my diagnosis and THIS video, I remember being like "I'm at least good at trying to communicate(in the romantic relationship)" but I was hurt and confused when the response was "You're shit at communication"
i grew the confidence to believe it when i say "no, you're shit at listening." them - "Oh i wish we had a recording so you could hear yourself" me- "omg, i can't believe you just found the sliver lining to big brother surveillance-state. I'm more than happy, I also know I can't be the one to press 'record'."
Have them repeat what you said, keep doing it until they get it right. If they really care about you, they'll WANT to understand you. Make you happy, meet your needs, make you feel safe etc.
The other person is just shit at communicating. They just don't know it cuz they are too busy thinking and doing what they want and not actually communicating. They just think they are.
Wait! What do you mean you can't read my mind?! Isn't everyone telepathic? Ha! Just kidding! I'm definitely not always the best communicator; especially in real time conversation. In writing, I am much better generally speaking because I have time to think of what I want to say and how I want to say it.
"You're not speaking emotionally+irrationally enough" is what I keep hearing. I apparently need to be more reactionary regardless of anything that makes sense, because neurots follow strength over reason.
Thank you for always re-framing that its not entirely the autistic persons fault. First time I've heard of cassandra syndrome and first time I've been able to better understand the double empathy problem, and it explains a lot for me. I incorrectly think I'm being clear and understanding what I'm being told; NT doesn't and therefore just moves on, annoyed with me because they think I am being deliberately obtuse, which I am unaware of and feel invalidated and frustrated. Repeat ad nauseum. No wonder my professional, and personal, life is a mess.
I once had someone scream at me (before my diagnosis): “You can’t be THAT obtuse!” I screamed back “I AM that obtuse!” (And I almost never scream but wow was it weird to be told something wasn’t true about me that I knew to be true about me from years of experience.)
I had a similar situation like that in high school with one of my teachers when attempting to explain my Hang-Ups with creative writing she would always brushed off as being the losers limp
Same! Often I feel like that with social things where it feels like this is something everyone knows, just for an example say a midnight text asking you up is likely a hook up kind of thing. I'd more likely just assume they are a night owl like me or can't sleep and need to talk or something. Or if I'm sending the midnight text I'm hoping they'll be up so I can talk. Other times I kinda feel that way is when I get what seems like an out of proportion and not what expected response from someone. I'm trying to think of an example but of course nothing is coming to mind, but I end up feeling like whatever handle I had on being able not predict but have a good idea of what another person is going to was completely wrong. Or in the same vein, I can try to do something just like someone else but get the opposite reaction. So much of social interaction, especially in person, just feels like everyone knows the "rules" but me and even when I try to follow them I do it wrong.
@@Quirkyalonester yeah another aspect of course is those pesky double standards 4 things that are appropriate for some people seemingly aren't appropriate for others simply because of an arbitrary trait that isn't even related
Had a disciplinary letter in my personnel file one that said that one of the expectations was that I should respond to written communication according to their intent rather than literal meaning. They said that having an interpreter would not be a reasonable accommodation for disability. I had to be reassured by my therapist that my inability to meet that expectation wasn't because I'm autistic, but because I'm only human. They'd added literal telepathy to my job requirements
Every time I watch your videos, my stress levels drop right down. You explain things in a way that I understand but cannot express in this intolerant, impatient, non-understanding world. I can struggle with verbalising my thoughts and feelings - half the time, I don't even understand what they even are myself! On the occasions when I do verbalise my thoughts and feelings, I get it "wrong" and am playing "the game" all wrong, leading to ostracisation and isolation - even from other NDs.
YES!!!!! " You have to communicate this way or I'll ignore you" I literally can't. I can't just start talking to strangers. So they dismiss my communication because it doesn't " fit".
The part where you talk about processing speed! ADHD (suspect AuDHD) here… and I find it physically distressing to have patience for someone else to process sometimes, and often have to stim during the waiting time (which of course then looks like I’m being impatient anyway!). Assuming that’s the ADHD component. This is definitely a challenge in my relationships 😅
As AuDHD myself, I fully relate to this. There are some things that take me a long while to process but that has more to do with people saying things to me that are hurtful and make no sense to me. I often can’t access my internal reaction in these situations to bring the thing itself into my fully conscious mind for processing. Likely a trauma response tied to our ability to disassociate more easily.
I’ve had really good conversations with my partner when I am so tired that I doze off between his answers… finally he gets all the processing time he needs!
Orion, from a mum who has spent most of my son's life trying to explain his actions and reactions with little reciprocal understanding, your video's are a godsend. You articulate what I want to tell people in a way that promotes understanding, they get sent to friends and relatives. Thank you. Also, amazingly, my son responds positively to your discussions and actively seeks them out. He has always been resistant to "explanatory" information, not sure why but you obviously expressed his experience of the world far better than anyone else could, for that I am infinitly grateful. Keep up the good work
Well, as an autistic daughter, I can promise it makes a world of difference to feel validated. My mother has come around to me being autistic. Does she understand perfectly? No. But I don't understand her perfectly either. What makes a difference is knowing that she's trying and vice versa. After years of people not trying at all, and accepting that I'm the one that always has to change to fit into the neurotypical world, it's just nice to feel like someone is putting the same energy into our relationship. It's hard work, but it's worth it.
@@lllCTHULHUlll awesome screen name. I think that I'm autistic and maybe my son is too. Since learning about autism I'm trying to be more understanding to both of my kids and also myself. My son freaks out when I try to put his winter jacket on if his sleeve comes up, he will just stand there and be yelling. It was a cause of frustration but now I realize that I have to be patient and just help in getting it the way that he will be comfortable
@@heedmydemands, if it makes you feel better, I used to scream when my mom would blow dry my hair as a child. So, one day, a neighbor called Child Protective Services and my mother had to take me to their offices for an interview. I was probably 4 or 5 years old. While there, the guy in charge of the case asked if I wanted anything to drink and kindly gave me some orange juice. And like any child would, I promptly spilled it all over myself and threw an absolute fit. But, the interviewer laughed to my mother and said he could see I was a handful and promptly let us go home. I would never behave this way as an adult, which is important to keep in mind! We grow up and change and then new things bother us for totally different reasons. And we get better at managing our meltdowns even if we don't stop having them completely. And in all likelihood, one day your kid won't remember the jacket issues and it'll be a story you tell and bond over. Just know it gets easier when we learn how to communicate a bit better!
For me, expressing my feelings once I knew them was rarely a challenge, though I likely rarely expressed empathy in the ways neurotypicals expected. A partner once said I was a puzzle wrapped in an enigma, which I thought was the strangest take on me (said after 15 years of relationship) because I always said what I meant and meant what I said. I’ve been in three long term relationship with neurotypicals and none of us knew I was autistic. I think they felt the Cassandra syndrome because (1) I couldn’t read between the lines and thought, when I realised this was going on in a particular situation, that they wanted me to read their minds and (2) they just wanted me to interact with them as other neurotypicals do-that is, understand their indirect way of communicating. I knew people were indirect, I just didn’t understand how indirect they actually are because I’m clueless as to how much of this kind of communication goes over my head. I just thought I was super direct and came up with all sorts of reasons (likely correct) of why neurotypicals in general are indirect. I don’t think these partners realised that I really couldn’t read their indirect communications, and so my failure to read, to even be aware of the fact that we weren’t having the conversation they thought we were having, meant they interpreted my behavior according to how they’d interpret another neurotypical. E.g., I was ignoring them, being self-centered, purposefully misunderstanding them, being difficult (yeah, I thought they were being difficult too by not directly sharing their thoughts, feelings, and needs). It felt like people were projecting their insecurities onto me.
Neurotypicals are often indirect because they're very sensitive when it comes to image, pride, ego, and the like. They're more emotion-based. Their complexity is in emotion and social rules. Neurodivergents like autistic people are not as sensitive when it comes to appearance and standing, they're much more about function than form. You probably already know all of this at least subconsciously, but I've found it hard to describe until recently. I never understood neurots' sense of importance with image and standing in the social dynamic, I just considered it mockworthy until I realized most of culture and everything upward and outward is built heavily on those things. Functional things like cars and phones etc are just considered disposable tools by the social egoists, whom don't even realize they're being maximally egotistical. Being ostracized cruelly for not conforming to this overblown egoism has been quite damaging to my self-esteem, but it's always been something I've had to manually learn through, while the benefit of that manual learning is being able to navigate/manipulate the egoists into a better outcome than they'd ever allow themselves to even consider.
When I (autistic) interact with my allistic mother, sometimes it feels like I have to be disingenuous and fake the type of emotional expression she can understand. For example, when I've run out of my safe foods, and I tell her I need more because it's causing me to have a breakdown and not eat, she doesn't understand the severity by just being told, and puts it at her last priority. In order to get what I need, I have to express stress and exhaustion in a way she can understand, by putting my head down and giving little response until she asks me what's wrong, or even fake crying. It sucks because it feels like I'm manipulating her, but no matter how many times I express verbally how I feel and what I need, she just doesn't understand the severity until I fake nonverbal cues that don't come naturally to me. I want to have better communication, but it's hard when the other person just won't listen to the things you say, and only relies on emotional cues you have to fake.
You're not manipulating her, you're speaking to her feeling mind in the language it can understand. Some people have strongly interlinked thinking and feeling minds, and can feel what you feel simply by being told. Others have weaker interlinks, and can only resonate with your anguish when it shows in your emotional body language. Feeling things openly with others can feel vulnerable, scary or even fake, but it's a natural and very useful layer of communication. It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how eye contact and a smile was a way to say "hi" before saying anything. It opened up a new world to me.
@@ChaoticNeutralMatt I agree. Maybe if they are all honest about what's happening, the mom could be told that the emotional communication is going to be fake, but it's what she understands. Then perhaps no one would feel like it was manipulation.
Ok tbh, that’s what NT people do also. It’s just more natural. We see the reactions that other people have and we adopt them and adapt our own. It just isn’t a conscious behavior most of the time. That is NOT negative manipulation. That is showing your emotions in a way that communicates to your audience.
NTs: How was I supposed to know that? Me: Because I told you in clear, unambiguous language. Twice. NTs: Yeah, but how was I supposed to know that that's what you meant by that? Me: b e c a u s e t h a t ' s w h a t t h o s e w o r d s m e a n NTs: Okay, but I just dreamed up a whole different angle you might have been playing and decided that that was what you must have been getting at, despite it not matching the literal meaning of your words or your numerous attempts to clarify, because it validated my insecurities and/or prejudices. Me: ... The DSM-5: Autism is marked by communication deficits.
This comment has me SCREAMING laughing. I’ve been through this soo many times, it feels like I’m speaking an ENTIRELY different dialect of English most times. I really don’t get how that’s considered “Normal” 😂
Getting gaslighted over it too. I've found that to be a big part of it thousands of times, being nearly 60 years old. Six decades of life, it's been the worst part of a century
Yeah, that's the worst. I've definitely had cases where people get frustrated at me and I can't even tell if they're truly unreasonably expecting me to read their mind or if they're mad because "a normal person would've understood". Though I've been told even if that were the case, getting mad about it isn't reasonable because it isn't fair to hold me to a normal person's standards. Not like that always sinks in after so many years of internalized self-loathing.
@@jaschabull2365 it isn't even about "normal" person or not. Sometimes people are just acting like a dick. You can be "normal" and also be flat out wrong and evil with your ignorance.
Gaslighting . . . Yep! My wife with whom I have been separated for 1.5 years now did that a lot. Rather than attempt to defuse a situation, she would add fuel to the fire and then wonder why my temper erupts like a volcano. She's a good person and we can talk for an hour or so every couple of weeks on the phone without a problem. However, this gaslighting thing is one of the many reasons I decided to leave. We're simply not compatible with one another.
My boyfriend and I definitely have issues with Cassandra syndrome. It's weird because I really feel like he's also on the spectrum but somehow we still seem to miss each other's meaning and what the other really needs..... it's very frustrating but the connection we share is well worth any odd hits and misses in our communication. Thankfully we are working on understanding our autism differences and allowing this to be a stronger more respectful relationship.
Been the biggest challenge in my life with any interaction I have with people. I'm virtually a hermit, I gave up on being able to get along with people a long time ago.
I'm an aspiring hermit 😅 I get so tired of trying to figure out the nuances, to think about every way something I say could misinterpreted, and yet it gets misinterpreted anyway. In my past relationships I'll say something like "I wish we could spend more time together." Why do I say this? Because I wish we could spend more time together (spending 1 day on the weekend and two weekday evenings together at this time). How does my NT partner interpret this? I'm demanding, codependent, I don't support her spending time with her kids or work, I'm selfish, needy, I don't respect her needs, I'm rushing her to move in together too quickly, etc. Like, no, I understand why we can't spend more time together. I'm not suggesting anything actually change. I just have heart-felt desire to spend more time together and I'm expressing that. That's literally it. Everything is like this. I'm being manipulative, even though I'm putting 90% of the time, energy and money into the relationship (she comes over, I've made dinner and dessert, planned entertainment, give her a shoulder rub while we do whatever, then she leaves and I clean everything up). Or if I say that it's hard for me when she says she's going to do something and then doesn't and it would be better if she just didn't promise it in the first place, then I'm calling her a liar and lazy and placing too many expectations on her etc. and this is also me being manipulative. When I say I'm not being manipulative, and point out that I'm not actually asking for anything really, well now I'm gas lighting her. Now she expects an apology because I hurt her feelings and I'm just like "What? I was trying to convey something nice in one instance and telling you you're hurting me in another and somehow I have to apologize? That makes no sense!" The exasperation. I'm working towards just living off grid in the woods with no humans around.
@@kracklinkamphyre7142 Sounds like quite the nightmare. I'm frigid so it's easier for me to leave that alone. The emotional connection is harder to live without but my experience was that it wasn't really available anyway.
If you think Cassandra Syndrome is bad between a NT person and an ASD person, you should see what it's like between two late-diagnosed ASD people who aren't on _exactly_ the same wavelength and who are packed full of decades of self-developed coping mechanisms.
This sounds like my past relationship. She told me being an undiagnosed asd and during those couple of years I seriously considered and convinced myself on being one myself (because it explained a lot about my past and current life). We both kind of accused each other for lying several times. It was a confusing mess.
My husband, my son and I are all autistic but we're not all exactly the same. I can say that my husband was the first person that I ever felt that I could truly be myself with. He understands me more than anyone I've ever met. Our son also has ADHD and when we ask a question, half the time he doesn't hear it at all. We're trying to teach him to just say something if he needs more time to process so that we know if we need to repeat it or if he just needs more time to think about it (he's 12). The phrase "let me think about that" or even "just a minute" are things we're working on. It's strange how something that you might do can still be annoying when your child does it because you know how the rest of the world sees it. I was chastised all the time when I was his age and my parents chastise him whenever they babysit. It's frustrating because they don't "believe in autism"
I like that you’re trying to help him out a bit by telling him to let you know if he needs more time to respond. I wish my parents and some colleagues would have done that, as sometimes I did need more than the two seconds they expected me to respond in. I don’t know if I am autistic (was diagnosed in 2000, wasn’t told until later in life…) but my current counsellor thinks it could be C-PTSD instead. I also have suspected dyspraxia and ADHD. Hoping the new surgery I’m registering with will refer me for (re)assessments. Also, I can’t stand anyone who doesn’t “believe” in neurodivergent states.
I don’t think it gets talked about often enough how much of an internal struggle it can be being an ND parent of ND kids in a largely NT society, especially when it comes to managing certain behaviors. You might 100% understand where your kid is coming from, and even be guilty of said behaviors yourself, but you still feel like you need to help them be aware of what behaviors are OK in which situations/locations and that we need to do our best to speak to each other respectfully, even if we’re upset. Idk if that would be considered masking, but I feel like we all have a responsibility to grow as people and master ourselves as best we can, not to be people pleasers, but to not be a prisoner of our whims and be able to be the best version of ourselves Idk man, I’m still trying to figure this all out. I’m in the middle of the official diagnosis process, but for what it’s worth, autism and ADHD both strongly resonate with me and explain a lot about my life
Depending on which generation I'm speaking with or how familiar we are with each other, I'll choose terminology like, "Loading, Processing, Spooling, Please Wait," or, "Error loading. Trying again." Or downright, "Does not compute." 😅
I am neurotypical and dating a guy with autism and I gotta say, I absolutely love his direct, open and honest style of communication and I kinda adapted it it makes things so much easier and makes at least me feel even more emotionally connected and it builds trust on both sides it felt like a breath of fresh air after my ex boyfriend who bottled up his emotions until problems piled up too high
My wife felt the same while dating; no lies, no BS, no jealousy. But that was before diagnosis. After years of marriage, she pined for more authentic connection and complained my lack of jealousy came off as uncaring. Point being: don’t expect us to change one day and become something we aren’t made to be.
I guess I am lucky then because I have the most authentic connection with my partner that I ever had with anyone and I thrive off of being super loyal, so I dont give him reason to be jealous and dont expect him to be but ofc there's always little imperfections where one might hope for change but I'm aware that I'll have to see how it goes and shouldn't push too hard, if he cant do it, that's that and we'll have to figure out how to handle it
perhaps your ex was also Neurodivergent, living with too much shame to live authentically, and was masking until external demand exceeded his capacity to cope internally.
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Another important example of how this happens is that NT people pay way more attention to body language and tone of voice than autistic people do. So, an autistic person might say "I am in pain right now" in a flat, neutral voice without expression, but they get ignored because they don't "look" like they're in pain because they aren't screaming or writhing around. This can be especially damaging for children who might go to a parent for help but get ignored because they "look fine."
I rather severely hurt myself on a trampoline when I was younger and I was actually writhing around screaming at the top of my lungs and my mother who hadn’t seen me yet thought I was just overreacting??? So she took longer to come and help me? SHE ADMITTED IT. TO MY FACE? It honestly shocked me. Not to dismiss what you’re saying at all. I agree that that’s very true.
That... explains a lot, for me (Aspergers). When I was 10 or so, I broke my arm. Fell off a piece of playground equipment and it snapped clean in half-- but it took a WEEK before anyone believed I was even hurt. The camp nurse told my parents I was fine, and they believed her until they eventually noticed me wincing when the car hit a bump.
@@PostalDude97 I have diagnosed BPD and possibly undiagnosed ADHD or autism. I'm apparently never reacting appropriately.
Even worse when it happens at work...
[me walking in calmly from the garage to inform my wife that I would like her to please drive me to the emergency room because I can't drive myself, having just drilled a hole most of the way through my hand]
I was passionately into philosophy as a kid. One day in school I told a girl I used to hang out with about Schrödinger, and when I stopped she said "Emma. I stopped listening and I just don't care. I don't understand a word of what you just said." I decided then I'd stop trying to tell people about what I was reading. But that resolve made me feel a bit lonely, so I looked a little extra silent one day, and my mom asked me what's up. I said "I can't find anyone to talk about philosophy with", and she responded I should try to cultivate more normal interests, something that the other kids liked too. I continued to hang out with the girl, and we sometimes watched The Vampire Diaries at her place which I found confusing and boring, I didn't really get it at all. I was slow on social things. Then one day she asked me if we were friends, and I thought for a minute and answered thoughtfully "No, I think we're acquaintances". Then she stormed off crying. After that I worried that I was a bad friend, and that I ought to change myself to get friends. But I kept finding that painful and awkward, so largely I just continued to engage in my interests alone.
I think you are cool.😊
I mean she literally said she didn't care about what you were trying to talk to her about, so I can't imagine why she'd care that much.
Sorry but not sorry, but that girl is a giant *wuss.*
That was more then 10 years ago, and I've matured a lot since then. Obviously it influenced me a lot for a while, and I got the mistaken idea that *no one* had niche interests. That's obviously false. I learned instead - just like everybody else has to learn - that there's a balance to navigate from when you're meeting someone for the first time, until you know someone well: The rules change as you get to know each other. You know what interests you share and which you don't. Sometimes you'll befriend someone you share interests with, and other times you don't share interests but you just like each other anyway. Most of my friends I don't share interests with and thats ok. I try not to rant to the ones that don't share the interests, because that's not fun for either of us. I'm still in the habit of defaulting to digging into interests on my own, because it's easier. But it doesn't mean I never share them. Mostly I don't even try, but sometimes, if it seems relevant, I'll mention my interest in the conversation, and mostly it's like they don't really get it, or they do get it but they just dont know what to say, and thats ok. And sometimes they'll get it and agree, and that's nice obviously. But it's also sorta meh. The only amazing thing is when they have something interesting to comment. When that happens, it's a wonderful learning experience and feels like bonding in a different way than when you're just echochambering (agreeing). But even then, it's over quickly. I'll often only have a few comments or questions in return before I say something like "wow, i can see that, that's a new perspective, I learned something new, how exciting, thank you" and then I'll feel satisfied for days or weeks, while - once again - returning to engage in the interest alone. And that's ok. And I don't think that experience varies that much between autists and neurotypicals tbh. Even neurotypicals change their behavior according to who they're with.
@@emmar9104 I kind of wish we'd somehow been in the same town/city because I was also a nerd with niche interests (paleontology, geology, nuclear science, and science-fiction), but I would have LOVED to listen to you talk about Shroedinger. (it's 50/50 if I can sit down and focus to read something but I'm VERY good at listening to people talk about things they're passionate about even if I don't have a personal interest in it at that time. I might even have "caught" an interest in philosophy from you like I caught one in history from my teacher, hahaha)
I'm lucky that my dad and I both seem to have the same thing that's different with our brains, so I had him and his own friend group as conversation partners. It's made some of my social skills suffer, but... I wish I could travel back in time and let you borrow my dad, I bet he would have been thrilled to talk philosophy with you.
I wish you the best in occasionally meeting other philosophy nerds to have fun conversations with!
I totally get it, but as an NT, I feel there is more responsibility on me to understand my ND husband than there is for him to understand me. I believe this needs to be a reciprocal learning and understanding.
It will never be reciprocal- they can’t learn what they are incapable of learning
this is validating to me as an autistic guy. it's hard to find NTs who are willing to understand that.
It may feel that way, but usually as a ND, we tend to do endless amounts of research and experimenting to understand the NT world. I'm sure if you looked into it, he's putting in just as much effort as, if not more effort than, you in this learning and understanding process. However, he is a man.. which.. actually men (especially white) tend to have less of a need and desire to mask and therefore this could really be the case for you.
My husband, who is diagnosed AS. Refuses to do any research on AS. I have done endless research on AS for the last 10 years. When i try to share the infor with him, he gets stressed and still in denial.
Sorry. After the first hundred times I heard "I'm fine" or "it's all good", I realized that means the opposite.
That moment when a neurotypical person assumes you're lying to them because no one is that honest. No one just SAYS the thing.
And now they're angry with you because you "blatantly lied" to them and you're standing their angry and confused as to why you're being called a liar when you told the truth. Like, I know the meaning of the words coming out of my mouth... they directly and literally describe your honest response... Like, how do you rephrase to make something clearer than the direct and literal words you mean?!?
THIS! Sums up years of my life!
NT or not, that's just fucking stupid. Whoever you're talking about needs to learn to meet people at their level and acknowledge that "This individual I'm taking to is just more honest and verbose than most people I've met". Pretty simple
I suffer all things you talk about in your videos.
Metaphors and similes help me. When I feel too angry and like I’m going to blurt out things that can really offend someone I inform I need some time alone and say I will come back once I’ve cooled down. Just like us NT can get triggered so sometimes it’s not always about us, the tone, word choice we use or our facial expressions when we communicate.
🙌
My name is Cassandra, I'm Autistic and this topic basically desribes my life. RUclips recommendations are getting scary man
This is another one of those "why did I only get diagnosed 8 months ago and spend my life in misery?" moments. You explain things so well. This explains why so many of my relationships, romantic, platonic and family, have been so challenging. I wish I could go back to my childhood and show my mum your channel. Sadly at 37, it's a bit too late.
Join the club. People suspected but I didn't think I was like the few rambling low functioning autistics I knew that were at the full "special needs" level. My sister who has a psychology degree (proper one, 4 years of college with honours) bought the subject up again last week. It appears that I have 3 or 4 aspects of very high functioning autism. Finally my social difficulties that I could never get past are getting understood. I'm one of these people that can master almost ANYTHING from plumbing to sewing to electrical and basic electronics right down to difficult to propagate and grow cacti. And I could never understand why I couldn't seem to master some social things or would be left out in social groups like churches. I would force myself into social situations again and again like "I'll learn this crap if it kills me trying". Never understanding why it was so hard when I could master other things in a few months EVERY time. Now I find out. At age 42. Probably too late for marriage and kids.
I experience these issues the most with my parents. With them, I try to convey my needs/feelings, and they almost always immediately dismiss them, saying something like "no you DON'T need that, you're being ridiculous, oh come on" or things like that. They don't even want to *try* to understand or accept that I DO have those needs :(
Perhaps theyre narcissists? Look into it.
Are they infantilizing you? That's often a problem with parents not recognizing that you're an autonomous entity and have your own feelings and needs and "mother knows best" isn't really true.
(It's a silly advice to give, but you should watch the Tangled song "Mother Knows Best" (both the first and reprise) and see if that seems to fit your own experience.)
@@neoqwerty With them, it's more like "you just need to/should adjust and adapt like everyone else" without taking into consideration at all that that is MUCH more difficult for an autistic person :(
@@SamLovesMovies25 I have family like that. It's unfortunate because they think they're preparing me for how hard the real world is. But all they're really teaching me is to avoid people like them and be grateful not everyone is like that.
I am so sorry this happens to you.
Thank you for this information. My husband who is an Asperger does this whole pause with responding back to what I asked or said and I thought he just didn’t want to respond. I did not realize until this video that he is trying to process what I have said or asked. Thank you for helping me to better understand my husband .
I have a minor in psychology and was married to an autistic man for 6 yrs. I listened to all his needs and what he needed, but he never listened to what I needed. My needs were always blown off.
I get it. It's not official but I think I was raised by autistic people. Or at least totally useless when it comes to emotional regulation. So, naturally, I have had a very hard time knowing how I felt, but I understand them perfectly. But what I needed emotionally and tried to convey landed on deaf ears. I understand that they couldn't help being the way they are but... It still sucks. And I'm glad you left. It's hard but we deserve someone who will put in some effort too. ❤
Not all autistic people are the same. It is what it is.
That's a human thing, not an autism thing. So many NT couples break up because of that, one giving 100% while the other person gives under 100%. It is what it is, people suck, some more, some less, some in some ways, some in others.
Yes to this. It is a very one sided relationship for many of us married to individuals with autism. I’ve met many people who claim it is not that way with their spouse. They should consider themselves very lucky
I was with an NT woman for eight years whose needs I listened to and took care of, but was rarely reciprocated. Just like you, I dated a HUMAN BEING who was a certain way. You were married to a jerk; you are framing it as if his autism is directly the reason he was a jerk. That's ableist, absurd, asinine, arrogant, yikes. You know what my problem with people like you is? You think that your experience is the standard, and not a RANDOM SAMPLE.
If you married an autistic person, you married ONE AUTISTIC PERSON. You did not marry a representative of The Autists. Get your head out of the sand and listen to the world around you!
Hi Orion!
My husband was autistic and now I know why we had so many disagreements. I wish I would have found your channel sooner, it would have made things so much easier. My husband died March 1st, this year and I was talking to a high school friend who is also Autistic and really opened my eyes to Why David would respond in a certain way. Now I feel sad I get in contact with my friend until after My husband died. I feel so sad that this could have helped us so much. Thank you for your channel.
I am so thankful that not only did I randomly happen to come across this video of yours (having watched only one other video of yours, to date), but I am also extremely thankful to you for taking your time to create this video; this one may be game changing, not only for myself but also my (now) wife and many other people that can relate to this syndrome in their relationships.
I have learned over time that when something is important I get the best results by saying that.
This is important. I need to say it so you understand it. I need to know you understand it even if you don't identify with it.
It's been remarkably effective in my life. Both in feeling connected, and weeding out people who aren't healthy to be around. If someone isn't willing to try to understand what I'm feeling after being explicit about it... They aren't worth it in most cases.
I’ve actually joked about changing my name to Cassandra due to my frustrations in communicating with NTs. Didn’t know it was actually a thing.
I experienced this as a woman with a physical disability and trying to explain the spoon theory..
i think this is literally what happened with my last relationship, and it was almost 8 years of this very problem getting more and more unignorable. Thank you for making this video!
Interesting angle. I always thought Cassandra Syndrome described the neurotypical person in relationship with the autistic person. It’s fascinating to think that both parties feel the same way… for different reasons.
Something I used to say: "I don't support the read-my-mind option."
Once me and my friends stopped playing games, stopped assuming things, and started to ask for clarification when something sounded harsh or confusing, our communication immediately improved drastically. Especially in texts.
The last time this happened to me, it was with my family. My sister and I live in the same city and our parents live over 1000 miles away. She has a large house with plenty of room to accommodate her family of 4 and guests. And I have a small 2 bed 2 bath. Which is big enough for me and any guests to stay comfortably, but not to entertain others on top of that. Our parents like to stay with me and visit her and the kids at their house.
I came home from a really hard and exhausting day at work and had already told both my parents and my sister that I was not going to go to dinner that night as i just didnt have it in me to handle kids and crowds and I just needed to have a low key night at the house. So, while I was relaxing to music and reading, everyone decided to come to my house. Not even an hour after I told them all I just wanted to relax. I managed about 30 minutes of multiple loud simultaneous conversations and a crying baby before I could feel a meltdown building. It was all I could do to keep from screaming while I gathered my things to leave the house. As I ran out my front door and grabbed my keys I just said,"I have to get out of here". I managed to get coffee at a drive through before I finally had to park and just cry. While I was sobbing into my coffee, my sister called to ask," what's wrong?" LOL. I got so mad. I told her," it is apparent to me that it doesn't matter." And that," I'm upset. I just told everyone I didn't want to go out and that I needed to relax at home and their reaction to that was to bring the party to my place." And that, "I was really hurt by them ignoring me when I told them what I needed." And that I just needed to be alone and calm down. After a few hours of driving around in the rain(I couldn't even walk around anywhere!) I went home.
My sister and her family went home and our parents had gone to bed by the time I made it back. And this last event, like all the others, was never talked about afterwards.
I put my autistic best friend through Cassandra Syndrome last year when we were discussing living together. He tried to tell me what he's looking for in a living space (close to public transit, wheelchair accessibility) and I never applied his needs in my searches, and he had no choice but to move on with plans without me.
I realize that sometimes information needs to be drilled into my head in order for me to get the hint. Since it'd be nice to not dump that responsibility on others, what I'm trying first is to rerun conversations in my head, maybe even mutter them out loud, in order for me to absorb what other people are trying to tell me.
I lost the man I love from not knowing enough of autistic traits. He is undiagnosed, and he will not discuss it. I eventually educated myself, but it took to long. In the meantime, I made too many mistakes. Too many misunderstandings. I wish autism was better known and better accepted as an alternate normal.
Thank you for all you do to educate the world. I wish I'd seen you 8 years ago.
That isn't your fault. He didn't want to discuss it. It's not on you to pick up the pieces he refused to show so please do not blame yourself.
I find it kind of bizarre, that only the NT partner is supposed to change their communication??? Dont you think NTs can also suffer from Cassandra Syndrome?
THANK YOU ORION. Nobody is talking about this and you put it so well.
This is fascinating to me as someone just starting to understand the Au part of my AuDHD who is in a relationship with a non-ADHD autistic person. I can see ways we’re both struggling to understand each other, and I think this video will help! The note about communicating needs is so paramount, and I’m kicking myself for expecting my partner to detect my needs more when I know exactly what it’s like to not know what others want if they don’t come out and say it 😅 I have my own reasons for struggling to ask for what I need, but this is a good reminder that I’ll never get anywhere if I don’t practice asking more!
"Bears Vs Berries" is a hilarious dialogue that I witnessed between 2 friends who were able to converse at length without knowing that the subject they were talking about was different. Great video to help family who may be triggered by discussing these topics without being involved in the explanation! This has been a challenge for me as a nurse and husband because many people feel dejected by failed communication and it is difficult to move past this communication issue when it happens, autistic or not.
This video has been so eye opening for me. Thank you!
This is honestly good advice to all people in all situations, autistic or not. Be patient and don't assume things too quick. Say what you mean and communicate clearly. I think a lot of the problems in this world wouldn't exist if people just did this.
We feel things so intensely. When we have a core need, it’s usually a need that if not met, will lead to a cascade of distressing consequences. The dreaded adult meltdown. The inability to function and need to retreat into a soothing behaviour… thus decreasing productivity and goal achievement… The sadness that sometimes accompanies this aftermath is hard too. When I think I’ve explained my needs in nauseating detail and yet I either couldn’t express it in a way they understand OR my love doesn’t care. Both hard feelings
You just described Cassandra syndrome of NT's. Do you realize that?
@@see4182what?&?&?! Don’t tell me what I am
Your videos sometimes affect me profoundly, this explanation of Cassandra Syndrome is one of them. It wasn’t until I watched one of your videos about the many traits of autistic/Asperger people that I was stunned by the realization that my former husband has autism and nearly cried as this video caused me to remember when we were splitting up after 20+ years and he kept saying I didn’t understand him. I was beyond baffled and trying so hard but he was having so many angry outbursts and I was an older, first time mom to a toddler, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells. Definitely huge Cassandra Syndrome..but his affairs with employees killed everything and I was emotionally destroyed for a long time. That was 20+ years ago and we didn’t have a clue. My current hubby is also high functioning in a different way and again neither of us knew though we do now and I understand and respect our different brain wiring. I went through marriage counciling with both but the therapists didn’t recognize the autism either because these guys are so intelligent and successful in their careers. When the therapist doesn’t know that creates a nightmare for everyone because no one feels understood by the therapist either. That is all so sad to remember. So why was I drawn to these men? Haha, I wondered about this for the longest time until I realized, after one of your jaw dropping videos, that my mother has it too. Omg, that blew me away and explained so much about my childhood and my awful relationship with her. My husband and I joke that though we are so opposite in personality what we share in common was awful childhood experiences with our mothers. So many damn lightbulb moments.
I'm experiencing Cassandra syndrome as an autistic, borderline, gay man. I speak my mind, and the world reacts by telling me I'm delusional, wrong, and crazy. I'm also familiar with narcissism, so Cassandras tell the truth, and narcissists deny reality. There's the disconnect!
Cassandra syndrome happens when awkward, ignorant people do tongue twisters with their words, which leaves me feeling confused and therefore unable to respond accordingly. I feel that I'm painted as crazy for failing to understand vague and ineffective communication.
Healthy people communicate best with autistic people because autism is not a mental illness.
Shoot the messenger applies to Cassandras!
Had no idea this was a thing, it explains a lot on how my past friendships felt apart to fiery ends. Tho in this case, it was more so me missing the cues from others due to my autism but them ignoring/or not understanding my words surrounding how i function best in relationships as well. Always tell people to let me know gently immediately when theres a personal issue and without fail everytime they never do it clear enough or only when its too late and i am on the defensive.
Thank you for this. I feel it will help.
So may amazing revelations from watching your channel.
I started writing my husband messages so he can take time and consider the words and their meaning. It led to him feeling less or not attacked at all in comparison to him feeling being attacked ALL THE TIME
Best explanation of this topic I’ve heard! This is a valuable video to share with friends and family!
That’s the word for what I experience?!?!? AAAAAA my parents are getting this sent to them >:3
I definitely experience this. I've had arguments with someone in my family about the fact I didnt feel like I could make a trip to somewhere further than my comfort zone. He kept pushing the issue, comparing it to things I already do, arguing with me. I said I could maybe make the trip, but it will depend how I am on the day. If I am having a low-anxiety day, I'll probably do it. If it's high anxiety, it will be best that I don't for all concerned. I told him the process and way I think and the struggles I have. He told me it's "all in my head" (and ummm... isn't that the point?) and to "get over it", which I am sure is sage advice that a psychologist or psychotherapist would give. I proactively work through my mental roadblock and appreciate people's opinions but I absolutely loathe when I make my situation clear to someone who knows I have a condition and they don't even attempt to understand.
My father used to constantly attack me for my "attitude" and accuse me of negativity, totally out of the blue, and I never had the slightest notion of what he was talking about. I tried really hard to have a positive attitude and not be negative, but I may have tried too hard and come across as insincere and then I was accused of being sarcastic (which I definitely wasn't). As I grew up, I found this happened to me a lot in the outside world too, but only with people I didn't really know. I was well into my 30s before someone told me that my facial expression conveys these things. It never occurred to me, until then, that facial expressions were important or could be taken to mean particular things without any correlating verbal communication or other indicators. I wish someone had explained this to me as a child, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief.
This was very much a part of my life, both in growing up and being grown up. Mis-projected tone and emphasis and body language, along with mis-perceived emotion in what was said, was the combination "spark" that lit disputes and outbursts.
After it was pointed out to me that I act or speak disrespectful and sarcastic "just like [family member]," I had to pause and self-examine and reflect on past experiences. "You know what--? I think you're right. That is what I learned when growing up. So, let's work together on improving our communication style. I don't want to sound angry, and I don't want to hurt you. You're not my enemy, and I'm not your enemy either." ... and that's also what led me to figuring out that I have chronic PTSD -- sporadic traumatic moments scattered through childhood started replaying in my mind. And that became my next special interest, learning how PTSD has affected me and how to heal the neurological wounds. I don't have to be as afraid of the "what ifs" of communication.
I do see this "not being believed" throughout childhood. It triggers me. No one listens & if it continues & escalates - then accused of being a hysterical female. I also wonder...if I'm simply surrounded by undiagnosed neurodiverse people. As time goes on & I discover the subtleties of my own neurodivergence...it's the entire family (even if related by marriage) haha sort of fun but sad at the same time.
This explains my communication issues in my relationship. And why some relationships works much, much better. And why sometimes it is easier when we have different native language can work easier since the natural language barrier can help overcome the neurodivers language issues. If you have to check if you use a word in the same way you check what do you actually mean with the words you choose. So yes the analogy of two different language are really appt. If communications seems un clear (from either side of the language gap) be patient and curious enough to ask for clarification, but since the other side might not know another way to say, start with explaining say "I think I didn't understand here, can you explain in another way?" If that is not possible, tell what you think you heard and see if the other person agrees with what you said.
For everything dear do not assume that because a word has a meaning for you the other person has the same meaning attached to the word. Because lots of words has a lot of different meanings that often shift from one part of the country to another, from one family or friendship group to another and so on. And if miscommunication accusers go back over what was said, misunderstood in a emotional natural setting. And learn a way to communicate that works for your unique relationship. Go in to a neurodiverse relationship with the knowledge that over time you together need to create a relationship language that works for that unique relationship... that is at least how I have gotten it to work for me after a lot of frustration in a lot of relationships that broke down because of miscommunication.
I'm super confused, I just looked up Cassandra Syndrome because this video was really interesting to me and the definition I'm getting elsewhere is VERY different, like the opposite of what's described here. Elsewhere it's described as something the non autistic person (generally wife) experiences. That it has to do with partners seeing us without our masks and then not being believed by people who only see the mask? Not trying to cause trouble just not sure what I'm missing. If anyone knows more and cares to help I'd appreciate it.
That's what "cassandra" support groups do unfortunately. The term was initially coined by Maxine Aston as "Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder" or CADD and it was initially intended to blame all relationship problems on the autistic partner, not as way to describe the difficulties both partners go through in a neurodiverse relationship. Needless to say, the concept is both ableist and pseudoscience (CADD is not supported by any professional psychiatric body, nor by peer-reviewed academic research). There is article about it on RationalWiki, if you want to look it up. (For some reason, I can't link to it in the comments on this video because every time I do, my comment disappears. Probably some kind of spam filter.)
@@Jono98806 thank you SO much the video was so good and made a lot of sense so when I went looking for more info I was pretty disheartened by "you're autistic so it's your fault". I mean obviously we CAN be at fault for miscommunication but everything I found was very one sided. Thanks for taking the time to answer
I was drawn to this video by title alone because I had no idea “Cassandra syndrome” existed, and because of certain experiences I had as a child, I identified with the Greek story of Cassandra so strongly as a young person, I used Cassandra as a BBS (pre-Internet) handle. I literally named myself after her. I was so afraid of telling the truth and not being believed, I would not try to tell even people I was closest to some things that were very important to me, because I could not face the possibility of being dismissed, downplayed, “soothed” instead of taken seriously.
Thank u sooooo much for this uplifting and practical advice. Im feeling hopeful about my ❤ again!
One sided relationships are hard 😢
"I don't understand what you are trying to say, therefore, it must be wrong and not important."
She's basically the opposite of "the boy who cry wolf" to the quote that NT hate "honesty is the best policy".
I finally feel seen and not crazy. Thank you for these incredibly informative videos!
How to deal with an autistic person, in brief; actually be the kind of person you tell yourself you are.
This is exactly the relationship issue I have with my parents. They do not understand how I work and they demand that I go and meet them on their turf. The fact that I do not know how to meet them there, causes frustration and alienation in THEIR side. Because they ALSO do not know how to meet me on my turf.
Even something like 'meeting in the middle' is something that comes with great difficulty, great emotions and great frustration.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO US
Is a resentment thrown at me when discussions get heated. 'Yes dad. I know and your feelings are valid. Do you also understand why I struggle?'
Guess who is (not) having therapy?
it's especially difficult tying to describe to neurotypical people how being neurodivergent in a world designed by and for neurotypical people feels like living in a bizarro world where nothing makes straightforward sense, only a convoluted and obtuse sense that looks absurd to us. It's maddening
Wow, this explains why my last relationship failed so badly. We both understood the importance of communication and tried really hard to be good at it, but at the end of the day it felt like he was misunderstanding or dismissing my feelings. And he never explained why he felt the way he did, so it didn't seem to make sense and I wasn't able to understand either.
Palmer hyperhidrosis affects the same way. Socially, mentally, everything. Very frustrating.
I was married to my autistic husband for over 30 years before I finally figured out what the trouble was. I think I did a search on his behavior and, Voila! It helped me so much just finding that out, but he didn't accept it and after ten years, he still doesn't.
When he starts a sentence in the middle of his thought. That's where I can lose it a bit. But I love him and after 40 years of marriage, I've learned to not get upset when he doesn't let me know the beginning of his thought.
I do get frustrated still when I have to ask him question after question to try and understand what he's saying or what he's getting at. Sometimes I feel like one of those running translation experts. He says something that makes no sense, so I ask if that's the entire thought.
Then he answers indirectly. He has a really hard time answering a question that requires a straight "yes" or"no" answer. Or he'll answer to something that I didn't ask about.
Despite my frustrations, my faith has kept me hanging on, and I love my husband and he loves me. We also have major points in common. I think if love and faith are at the center, all the other stuff will get worked out. And I think it helps to follow the biblical principles of letting him lead ...within reason. 😅
I had never heard of this! Fascinating! 🤯
Sure is huh!
Yes Yes Yes.....holy fuck......as a female with high functioning Aspergers I have struggled and raged over this very issue for years. Its been hell. Feeling like Im in a nightmare I cant wake up from. Ive tried communicating, no luck. I am a passionate person, and one thing that drives me crazy is apathy. I HATE it when people misunderstand my passion and focus for "being dramatic" and thus dismiss what I say or need, especially as a woman. Passion is more "accepted" in men, women are "expected" to be demure and passive. Hmmm, screw that. But the sexism and double standard is there. I dont believe in embellishment, I say exactly what I feel, even is thats intense.
Nocturna . Please believe me when I tell you I have shared very similar experiences and agree with many of your points. God IS love Nocturna. I am SO pleased you have found Him. Both of us need to heal from the pain and rejection of our past. Both of us have God's love and we also deserve the love from others. I actually agree that more onus needs to be in the neurotypical community to include, accept, love, value and cherish us. I really do. This very morning I was
raging to them about that very issue! Even though I don't know you sis, I can perceive how intelligent, self aware, high functioning and increadably caring you really are! Don't let the hurtful words of others define you. You and your Creator know who you are. Love and regards, Cristina
@@cristinaroe2166 Yes, I know God is love. What Jesus did on the cross was everything. Without God I wouldnt be alive right now. Yes I have raged on many ocassions to NT about many things. Dont get me started...including that issue. I am very high functioning but part of that curse is not a soul believes I am Asperger's. But I guarantee you, 200% I never let others define me and never have.
People can say all the hurtful words they want, I dont care. They matter nothing. Their opinions even less.
Otherwise, I appreciate your kind words. Theyre unexpected. I feel the worlds turned into zombies. Surrounded by programmed NT who dont think critically and listen to the government instead of God.
God be with you Christina, I can sense God has given you a kind soul. Cheers
Hello! My autistic partner made me aware of this video, thank you for sharing it. I think casandra works on the other side as well. I’m curious about the frustration so called „neurotypical“ partner experiences because of not being understood and seen by the autistic partner. I’m reading books, drawing graphics when he talks, watching, studying the nervous system… My level of patience is reaching buddha level… Will I ever be understood and seen by my autistic partner?
Oh my gosh a few years ago (before diagnosis) my username was cassandra complexity on a load of sites, wow.. didnt realise the experience was felt by other aspies.
I'm autistic but also have ADHD. I often forget to eat and I'm not a fan of cooking as I know there is food but I forget about it as it's out of sight out of mind add on top I live with family so the amount of food available is always changing. Well the topic came up one day with my brother and stepfather and I tried explain it to them and while neither got it my stepdad made me feel dumb and made it seam like I was full of it.
The biggest problem I have is I wasn't diagnosed with my disorders until I was in my early 20's and it was more of "I think of have theses thing do I have them, yes to have them" sort of deal and I haven't done much more than that because I don't have a lot of money and the support for it where I live is lacking and I wouldn't know where to start and I also don't want to use it as an excuse. Thing is both me and my family don't fully understand how it affects me so I often get dismissed in my behaviour as "so and so who lives here had it worse than you and they're doing this thing here, you're just lazy" or "you're in your late 20's act your age" and it's extremely frustrating.
Funny I was saying, close to this, a few months ago.
Why do you say “Cassandra Syndrome” with such attitude?
This is the first time I've heard of "Cassandra Syndrome". I think years ago I heard about the 'curse of Cassandra', and the first thing I thought of was if that was it a metaphor for somebody like me who gets accused of lying all the time because I don't make eye contact. Yet I tend to tell the truth and urban times are no here's physical proof and I said it called a liar cuz I'm not making eye contact.
Great video 😊😊😊
I have adhd so I may have missed this but I have only ever heard Cassandra syndrome used to refer NT women married to men with undiagnosed autism, who arent believed by anyone outside the marriage when they say he seemed like he might be autistic (and all the problems in the relationship that might be caused by not understanding that).
I don't want to offend anyone, by asking this, but can this Cassandra syndrome also go the other way around?
As a mom of 2 diagnosed children and a partner who isn't diagnosed, but where the suspicions of him being autistic as well are very strong( and he himself also suspects this!) I have a hard time being understood. Especially by my partner. When trying to convey my feelings and needs, I will often not be taken seriously and/or get shut down and ignored by him. Talking about feelings and difficulties (not just my own, but also when there are problems with our kids) just won't go well and usually ends in him melting down and most of the time screaming at me. I've tried many ways of bringing up these thingsAs a result I avoid burdening him as much as I can and try to resolve everything myself. Missing a partner who can complement our team, give me his (much appreciated) view on things.Not only is it a very lonely way of living and having a family, it is quite taxing. Emotionally I am drained. Now: having said that, I am not in need of pitty. I DO really want to know how I can get my potentially long time autistic partner to be more of a partner in our relationship, when talking about emotions and difficulties lead to him shutting down. I would really like some help with this....since he doesnt seem to be able to explain this to me himself.
It in fact refers to the NT partner, thats the one suffering with it, not the autistic person.
What you describe here has been my experience with everyone I've ever known. I want to share information about Cassandra Syndrome with my friends so that I can start building better relationships with them. But when I look up "Cassandra Syndrome", most of the results feel like a perverse re-imagining of the idea in an anti-autistic light. I'm worried about those things polluting the discussion and turning them away from working with me on that double-empathy problem.
This video is actually a perverse reimagining of Cassandra syndrome - a syndrome that describes the allistic partner’s experience in a relationship with an autistic person - to retell the experience from an autistic point of view.
Actually I don’t think it’s perverse at all, I just wanted to reuse your same language :P. I think in general autistic partners are understood very easily by the allistic partner because autistic partners tend to communicate their needs in a direct and clear way, whereas allistic partners absolutely do not. So the allistic partner feels invisible and devalued and abused. But it’s also the allistic partner’s fault for not communicating directly. It’s also the allistic partner’s fault for thinking they could ever get their relationship needs met from an autistic person.
@@Retrosenescent As an autistic person I can absolutely say without doubt that autistic partners are NOT understood very easily by allistic partners in general, at all. They only THINK they understand the autistic partner. This is usually because the autistic person often doesn't know how to explain many of their needs in a way the allistic partner would understand - and so they often learn to live with a lot of their needs being unmet as firstly, relationships are rare and hard to come by for most autistic people and they always have been; and secondly, they think its the norm - what, with being treated and conditioned from an early age that most of their needs don't matter, are ridiculous and are not that important and all...
My soon to be ex wife absolutely refuses to even try. I'm not sure why she married me when I'm a different ethnicity from her to begin with and have no interest in changing who I am to suit her. especially since she just ignores what I have to say unless it's normal, logical or agrees with what she thinks. Total waste of my time.
I didn't know that Cassandra syndrome was a thing but I definitely experienced it with my mom growing up where she just wouldn't listen to me and would treat me like everything I said was the Babbling of a toddler with no actual meaning. I felt like Stewie Griffin from Family Guy, speaking completely understandably to a friend group but completely ignored by my parents except for when it benefited them
Same here yet I nor any of my family are autistic.
I often bore the shit out of my autistic friend. He doesn’t like me telling stories about stuff that goes on in my life. I do it to engage and if I ask him what is going on, he barely says a thing. And then all of a sudden he starts talking (texting) like crazy, which I don’t mind. He refuses to talk to me on the phone. He says it makes him anxious. And he says I overwhelm him. Honestly, I also am high functioning autistic, and people can overwhelm me, but I listen. Even if it drains me. He isn’t big on listening. But we have been friends and on and off romantically involved for 14 years. I do feel hurt that I bore him. I just tell him I have a writer’s quirk for making everything a story. I grew up listening to my family. They are all like that. I don’t really write, but I have that kind of brain. I guess most people don’t get it and think I am being an egoist. At least my more severely autistic friend doesn’t keep picking at me or trying to change me. We have had our fights, then back off. Two autistic people have prickly relationships. I have them anyway with neurotypical. I am too blunt myself, and have a hard time understanding why some get offended or taken aback.
I told my boss 3 times the same thing about not being able to work that shift, so i ended up quiting after it wrecked me mentally. Yet she wouldn't believe me. and told me to work anyways.
This is all great information. But what about it being the other person feeling casandra syndrome and I’m the autistic? He’s laying out his needs for sexual intimacy and it’s a 7-10 days before my period starts and I want nothing to do with sexual stuff. I get overwhelmed with pmdd symptoms and he still pushes and pushes for sex to the point where he explodes in anger and frustration. This has happened every month for the last 3 years we’ve been together. So he’s stating his needs clearly and I’m either ignoring or saying no over and over because I’m autistic AND I have complex ptsd issues and abuse history blah blah blah. What do I do?? This is our current situation TODAY and it sucks
Wow. I don’t care who he is, only you control what you do and when. He needs to get over himself.
All good to say what you mean and mean what you said until the person takes offense by interrupting that as something else to the point you’re no longer discussing your point but rather how what you said affected the other person.
How do I get my partner to get screened?! He says he has ADHD (like me) which I remind him is "neurodivergent". I suggest he may be ASD and perhaps his kid too (and why is even more important to get screened so they both get the right therapies and meds), but I feel he still lives in the stigma that its bad to be neurodivergent :/ thus refuses to get the screening done ...
Check out more actually autistic creators until you find and learn more neurodiversity affirming arguments. Look up autism and adhd TikTok’s and how many people explain how getting a diagnosis to understand themselves made their lives better. I can’t tell you how man times I wondered if people would be better off if I wasn’t alive. Discovering and studying my individual needs relating to adhd and autism saved my life. Keep looking until you find what clicks for him, and for kiddo, even if you can’t get the evaluations, most day to day changes can be tried, and if they work, do them.
Cassandra in Greek mythology was fated by Apollo to utter true prophecies but never to be believed... not just to speak the truth and never to be believed. So here we have a syndrome defined inaccurately. A Cassandra complex matches the Greek definition and how I appear to people (because I read science news).
i'm not autistic, i have ADHD, but there's a similar disconnect between what i say and what's understood by other people. to take the toast example, my response might not be yes or no, but something like finland or guitar.
I wish I knew this 40 years ago!
its because their needs are generally always unbelievable, like with issues with smells.
I came to RUclips looking for education on Dunning and Krugers Cassandra effect and instead I found this. Which is way better suited to what I was trying to learn.
Weirdly enough, I've been watching your videos for over a month now, but havent in about a week. Yesterday I was watching presentations on the DunningKruger effect, today I search for the cassandra effect, and instead this video is the first result, and its the right video. Like, RUclips really got that one in one shot. To the point I almost feel like im being lead more than im walking my own path. Predestinate grooves and all that..
I started watching this video because I’ve been suspecting that my husband is on the spectrum but after hearing the explanation it sounds like IM the one on the spectrum 🤦🏼♀️ I’m so confused. Does this happen with ADHD folks too?
I'm on the spectrum, and my fiancee is likewise also on the spectrum. We are both ND. We both have issues with this, including when communicating with each other. Yikes, lol.
"Say what you mean"
Like I haven't been banging my head against that wall for almost a decade.😭
I was cursed with having to join the family business when my dad had legal and health troubles, and my mom keeps playing riddles instead of talking clearly.
And when I tell her something in the plainest, most obvious language I can muster, she insists on only listenning to half the words, and rearranging unto something that's only tangentially related.
On top of it, she will straight up not interpret the words if she doesn't like the tone. (Which I can't control, it's something I've never been able to do)
This isnt fair my name is cassandra and my ex was autistic and I ruined it! Then got diagnosed eith adhd last thursday and bow i have autisum to!!!!
I think I'm great at communication, but it could be so because as a child I was forced to translate for my parents. Often times, in arguments people get upset because I remember what they said and repeat it back verbatim (translation habit) posed as a question and they're like I didn't say that and I'm like yes you did, like 5minutes ago, what do want from me? Because you're clearly contradicting yourself.
Orion, your example with the toast was very helpful!!! DO - YOU - WANT - TOAST - ? I get it now!
I‘m autistic, my husband allistic. he recently realized that asking me what I want to drink for breakfast will lead to me freezing up due to the sheer amount of possibilities. so being a smart man he started breaking the options down into discreet categories like a flowchart: do you want something to drink? - hot or cold? - tea or coffee? also giving me time to decide in between the questions. we‘re adapting that in other situations as well.
I would also like to bring up that our nt partners might end up feeling like cassandra at times too, if we fail to pick up on the cues that work well with nt people. I like the idea of meeting each other half-way - both people need to make an effort to make any relationship work. 😊
I really wish people listed options in that way. It's so hard to make decisions about broad topics, especially when I don't know what I want or where it'll lead. "Orange juice? Will it go with the food? Is it too sweet, will it feel bad in my throat? Sparkling water? Do we have any, will it be troublesome to ask for that? Tea? Will it make me too warm, which tea would it even be? Black tea gets bitter fast so should I make it myself if it's black tea? I don't think we have enough green tea, they like green tea so I don't wanna waste it... No wait, do I even want tea?" It never ends.
This is brilliant! I've often tried to explain people that my thought process is from the abstract to the specific rather than the other way around but I could not find a solution to bridge that. In many cases this may be what I have been looking for. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️
Never thought about using flowcharts in cases of decision paralysis, but it seems like a very useful tool. Thank you for sharing your insights
No one in my house ever makes me a cup of tea so I don’t have that problem 😅
@@Gnomereginam By all means, have the green tea! I'll just get some more later.
I can assure you it won't be "wasted" on you.
And don't think sparkly water would be too troublesome. I don't believe for a second you're not worth making a little sparkly water for:)
That said I actually do need to get some new tea lmao
I've found that instead of dismissing, I found that for the neurodivergent people in my life the phrase "Help me understand." has been a godsend. It allows for a deeper conversation, communicates my intention to listen and my desire to know more, and acknowledges the gap in my own experience all in one straightforward request.
Ally! Thank you.
A lot of the time I wonder why I even bother explaining things to people, when I take time to explain it in great deal, and then they behave as if I never said anything. It gives me the impression that the average person doesn't care, so I will just save all of the trouble and isolate myself. And then there are times when people ask me about something, and I am suddenly unable to communicate all of the details. It's almost as if my brain suddenly forgets what I wanted to say; but eventually I am able to find the words that I wanted to say, and then make sure to tell them what I need to say. But the funny thing is that, it doesn't even matter, because explaining everything doesn't seem to make a difference most of the time. And even though I am much more honest than the average person (I notice that an awful lot of people like to tell fibs to get what they want, and white lies), I still get treated like I am a liar, and that I am untrustworthy. And once I have time to process a situation, and figured out what I want to say (this usually happens during alone time), I will communicate my thoughts and feelings as clear as I possibly can, and then end up being misunderstood, where I ask myself, "How could I possibly have been more clear about it?" And people will even act like they understand (especially when they don't think that I am autistic, and therefore assume that I think the same way, and whatever I said gets perceived through THEIR lens, not mine. When they assume that we perceive something the same way, and they think that we're on the same page, then they continue writing their version of the story in their mind, and expect me to behave a certain way in the future. They expect me to do the things that THEY would do in a situation, and then they end up being totally perplexed when I don't end up dealing with things in a particular manner). I feel like, when people question my autism, and assume that I think like a neurotypical, it causes them not to try very hard to understand everything I am saying. It's as if they are telling themselves, "Oh, she probably just means this or that" and then create a particular story in their head, where they decide to stop listening to me explain all of my points of view. Why? Because it's literally just easier not to try and understand something that's complicated, and just come up with your own version. It's as if they never even heard me, where it's almost like talking to a wall. And the gaslighting that occurs afterwards, just WHY?!! I put in a great effort to understand where a neurotypical person is coming from, and ask many questions about how they see things, and I wish that they would do the same for me. It makes a person feel alone and lonely, even when they surround themselves with people (including family members). You give me enough alone time to think, and I can write down what it was that wanted to say (and watching videos like this gives me another way to explain what it is that I want to say; it gives me more words to explain it!). I tell ya, I believe that it's videos like these that save my sanity.
That's my life to a T as well. It's utterly frustrating!!!
@@hannahk.summerville5908 Well thank God we have this little community here on RUclips, so that we don't feel like the only one in the world who has these struggles 🙂.
Wow! I can relate!
Yes, I’m pretty much done with allistics and ableism, it’s just not worth it.
I really wish I could find someone who understands this in real life. I’m completely isolated now.
Before my diagnosis and THIS video, I remember being like "I'm at least good at trying to communicate(in the romantic relationship)" but I was hurt and confused when the response was "You're shit at communication"
i grew the confidence to believe it when i say "no, you're shit at listening."
them - "Oh i wish we had a recording so you could hear yourself"
me- "omg, i can't believe you just found the sliver lining to big brother surveillance-state. I'm more than happy, I also know I can't be the one to press 'record'."
Have them repeat what you said, keep doing it until they get it right. If they really care about you, they'll WANT to understand you. Make you happy, meet your needs, make you feel safe etc.
The other person is just shit at communicating. They just don't know it cuz they are too busy thinking and doing what they want and not actually communicating. They just think they are.
Wait! What do you mean you can't read my mind?! Isn't everyone telepathic? Ha! Just kidding! I'm definitely not always the best communicator; especially in real time conversation. In writing, I am much better generally speaking because I have time to think of what I want to say and how I want to say it.
"You're not speaking emotionally+irrationally enough" is what I keep hearing. I apparently need to be more reactionary regardless of anything that makes sense, because neurots follow strength over reason.
Thank you for always re-framing that its not entirely the autistic persons fault. First time I've heard of cassandra syndrome and first time I've been able to better understand the double empathy problem, and it explains a lot for me. I incorrectly think I'm being clear and understanding what I'm being told; NT doesn't and therefore just moves on, annoyed with me because they think I am being deliberately obtuse, which I am unaware of and feel invalidated and frustrated. Repeat ad nauseum. No wonder my professional, and personal, life is a mess.
I once had someone scream at me (before my diagnosis): “You can’t be THAT obtuse!” I screamed back “I AM that obtuse!” (And I almost never scream but wow was it weird to be told something wasn’t true about me that I knew to be true about me from years of experience.)
I had a similar situation like that in high school with one of my teachers when attempting to explain my Hang-Ups with creative writing she would always brushed off as being the losers limp
Same! Often I feel like that with social things where it feels like this is something everyone knows, just for an example say a midnight text asking you up is likely a hook up kind of thing. I'd more likely just assume they are a night owl like me or can't sleep and need to talk or something. Or if I'm sending the midnight text I'm hoping they'll be up so I can talk.
Other times I kinda feel that way is when I get what seems like an out of proportion and not what expected response from someone. I'm trying to think of an example but of course nothing is coming to mind, but I end up feeling like whatever handle I had on being able not predict but have a good idea of what another person is going to was completely wrong. Or in the same vein, I can try to do something just like someone else but get the opposite reaction. So much of social interaction, especially in person, just feels like everyone knows the "rules" but me and even when I try to follow them I do it wrong.
@@Quirkyalonester yeah another aspect of course is those pesky double standards 4 things that are appropriate for some people seemingly aren't appropriate for others simply because of an arbitrary trait that isn't even related
Had a disciplinary letter in my personnel file one that said that one of the expectations was that I should respond to written communication according to their intent rather than literal meaning. They said that having an interpreter would not be a reasonable accommodation for disability. I had to be reassured by my therapist that my inability to meet that expectation wasn't because I'm autistic, but because I'm only human. They'd added literal telepathy to my job requirements
Every time I watch your videos, my stress levels drop right down. You explain things in a way that I understand but cannot express in this intolerant, impatient, non-understanding world. I can struggle with verbalising my thoughts and feelings - half the time, I don't even understand what they even are myself! On the occasions when I do verbalise my thoughts and feelings, I get it "wrong" and am playing "the game" all wrong, leading to ostracisation and isolation - even from other NDs.
Me too!!!
Same
YES!!!!! " You have to communicate this way or I'll ignore you" I literally can't. I can't just start talking to strangers. So they dismiss my communication because it doesn't " fit".
The part where you talk about processing speed! ADHD (suspect AuDHD) here… and I find it physically distressing to have patience for someone else to process sometimes, and often have to stim during the waiting time (which of course then looks like I’m being impatient anyway!). Assuming that’s the ADHD component. This is definitely a challenge in my relationships 😅
As AuDHD myself, I fully relate to this. There are some things that take me a long while to process but that has more to do with people saying things to me that are hurtful and make no sense to me. I often can’t access my internal reaction in these situations to bring the thing itself into my fully conscious mind for processing. Likely a trauma response tied to our ability to disassociate more easily.
I’ve had really good conversations with my partner when I am so tired that I doze off between his answers… finally he gets all the processing time he needs!
here! here!
Orion, from a mum who has spent most of my son's life trying to explain his actions and reactions with little reciprocal understanding, your video's are a godsend. You articulate what I want to tell people in a way that promotes understanding, they get sent to friends and relatives. Thank you. Also, amazingly, my son responds positively to your discussions and actively seeks them out. He has always been resistant to "explanatory" information, not sure why but you obviously expressed his experience of the world far better than anyone else could, for that I am infinitly grateful. Keep up the good work
I’m so grateful to hear that!
@Orion Kelly - That Autistic Guy you really are helping people, be really proud!
Well, as an autistic daughter, I can promise it makes a world of difference to feel validated. My mother has come around to me being autistic. Does she understand perfectly? No. But I don't understand her perfectly either. What makes a difference is knowing that she's trying and vice versa. After years of people not trying at all, and accepting that I'm the one that always has to change to fit into the neurotypical world, it's just nice to feel like someone is putting the same energy into our relationship. It's hard work, but it's worth it.
@@lllCTHULHUlll awesome screen name. I think that I'm autistic and maybe my son is too. Since learning about autism I'm trying to be more understanding to both of my kids and also myself. My son freaks out when I try to put his winter jacket on if his sleeve comes up, he will just stand there and be yelling. It was a cause of frustration but now I realize that I have to be patient and just help in getting it the way that he will be comfortable
@@heedmydemands, if it makes you feel better, I used to scream when my mom would blow dry my hair as a child. So, one day, a neighbor called Child Protective Services and my mother had to take me to their offices for an interview. I was probably 4 or 5 years old. While there, the guy in charge of the case asked if I wanted anything to drink and kindly gave me some orange juice. And like any child would, I promptly spilled it all over myself and threw an absolute fit. But, the interviewer laughed to my mother and said he could see I was a handful and promptly let us go home. I would never behave this way as an adult, which is important to keep in mind! We grow up and change and then new things bother us for totally different reasons. And we get better at managing our meltdowns even if we don't stop having them completely. And in all likelihood, one day your kid won't remember the jacket issues and it'll be a story you tell and bond over. Just know it gets easier when we learn how to communicate a bit better!
For me, expressing my feelings once I knew them was rarely a challenge, though I likely rarely expressed empathy in the ways neurotypicals expected. A partner once said I was a puzzle wrapped in an enigma, which I thought was the strangest take on me (said after 15 years of relationship) because I always said what I meant and meant what I said.
I’ve been in three long term relationship with neurotypicals and none of us knew I was autistic. I think they felt the Cassandra syndrome because (1) I couldn’t read between the lines and thought, when I realised this was going on in a particular situation, that they wanted me to read their minds and (2) they just wanted me to interact with them as other neurotypicals do-that is, understand their indirect way of communicating. I knew people were indirect, I just didn’t understand how indirect they actually are because I’m clueless as to how much of this kind of communication goes over my head. I just thought I was super direct and came up with all sorts of reasons (likely correct) of why neurotypicals in general are indirect.
I don’t think these partners realised that I really couldn’t read their indirect communications, and so my failure to read, to even be aware of the fact that we weren’t having the conversation they thought we were having, meant they interpreted my behavior according to how they’d interpret another neurotypical. E.g., I was ignoring them, being self-centered, purposefully misunderstanding them, being difficult (yeah, I thought they were being difficult too by not directly sharing their thoughts, feelings, and needs). It felt like people were projecting their insecurities onto me.
Neurotypicals are often indirect because they're very sensitive when it comes to image, pride, ego, and the like. They're more emotion-based. Their complexity is in emotion and social rules. Neurodivergents like autistic people are not as sensitive when it comes to appearance and standing, they're much more about function than form. You probably already know all of this at least subconsciously, but I've found it hard to describe until recently. I never understood neurots' sense of importance with image and standing in the social dynamic, I just considered it mockworthy until I realized most of culture and everything upward and outward is built heavily on those things. Functional things like cars and phones etc are just considered disposable tools by the social egoists, whom don't even realize they're being maximally egotistical. Being ostracized cruelly for not conforming to this overblown egoism has been quite damaging to my self-esteem, but it's always been something I've had to manually learn through, while the benefit of that manual learning is being able to navigate/manipulate the egoists into a better outcome than they'd ever allow themselves to even consider.
@@DonaldDucksRevenge wtf r u talking about
When I (autistic) interact with my allistic mother, sometimes it feels like I have to be disingenuous and fake the type of emotional expression she can understand.
For example, when I've run out of my safe foods, and I tell her I need more because it's causing me to have a breakdown and not eat, she doesn't understand the severity by just being told, and puts it at her last priority. In order to get what I need, I have to express stress and exhaustion in a way she can understand, by putting my head down and giving little response until she asks me what's wrong, or even fake crying.
It sucks because it feels like I'm manipulating her, but no matter how many times I express verbally how I feel and what I need, she just doesn't understand the severity until I fake nonverbal cues that don't come naturally to me. I want to have better communication, but it's hard when the other person just won't listen to the things you say, and only relies on emotional cues you have to fake.
You're not manipulating her, you're speaking to her feeling mind in the language it can understand. Some people have strongly interlinked thinking and feeling minds, and can feel what you feel simply by being told. Others have weaker interlinks, and can only resonate with your anguish when it shows in your emotional body language. Feeling things openly with others can feel vulnerable, scary or even fake, but it's a natural and very useful layer of communication.
It wasn't until my mid 20s that I learned how eye contact and a smile was a way to say "hi" before saying anything. It opened up a new world to me.
@@galfisk manipulation itself isn't purely negative. But it sounds like an honest long term discussion about this needs to be had.
@@ChaoticNeutralMatt I agree. Maybe if they are all honest about what's happening, the mom could be told that the emotional communication is going to be fake, but it's what she understands. Then perhaps no one would feel like it was manipulation.
The accuracy!
Ok tbh, that’s what NT people do also. It’s just more natural. We see the reactions that other people have and we adopt them and adapt our own. It just isn’t a conscious behavior most of the time. That is NOT negative manipulation. That is showing your emotions in a way that communicates to your audience.
NTs: How was I supposed to know that?
Me: Because I told you in clear, unambiguous language. Twice.
NTs: Yeah, but how was I supposed to know that that's what you meant by that?
Me: b e c a u s e t h a t ' s w h a t t h o s e w o r d s m e a n
NTs: Okay, but I just dreamed up a whole different angle you might have been playing and decided that that was what you must have been getting at, despite it not matching the literal meaning of your words or your numerous attempts to clarify, because it validated my insecurities and/or prejudices.
Me: ...
The DSM-5: Autism is marked by communication deficits.
This comment has me SCREAMING laughing. I’ve been through this soo many times, it feels like I’m speaking an ENTIRELY different dialect of English most times. I really don’t get how that’s considered “Normal” 😂
💯
Getting gaslighted over it too. I've found that to be a big part of it thousands of times, being nearly 60 years old. Six decades of life, it's been the worst part of a century
Yeah, that's the worst. I've definitely had cases where people get frustrated at me and I can't even tell if they're truly unreasonably expecting me to read their mind or if they're mad because "a normal person would've understood". Though I've been told even if that were the case, getting mad about it isn't reasonable because it isn't fair to hold me to a normal person's standards. Not like that always sinks in after so many years of internalized self-loathing.
Also this.
@@jaschabull2365 it isn't even about "normal" person or not. Sometimes people are just acting like a dick. You can be "normal" and also be flat out wrong and evil with your ignorance.
Medical gaslighting is the literal absolute WORST
Gaslighting . . . Yep! My wife with whom I have been separated for 1.5 years now did that a lot. Rather than attempt to defuse a situation, she would add fuel to the fire and then wonder why my temper erupts like a volcano. She's a good person and we can talk for an hour or so every couple of weeks on the phone without a problem. However, this gaslighting thing is one of the many reasons I decided to leave. We're simply not compatible with one another.
My boyfriend and I definitely have issues with Cassandra syndrome. It's weird because I really feel like he's also on the spectrum but somehow we still seem to miss each other's meaning and what the other really needs..... it's very frustrating but the connection we share is well worth any odd hits and misses in our communication. Thankfully we are working on understanding our autism differences and allowing this to be a stronger more respectful relationship.
Been the biggest challenge in my life with any interaction I have with people.
I'm virtually a hermit, I gave up on being able to get along with people a long time ago.
I'm an aspiring hermit 😅 I get so tired of trying to figure out the nuances, to think about every way something I say could misinterpreted, and yet it gets misinterpreted anyway.
In my past relationships I'll say something like "I wish we could spend more time together." Why do I say this? Because I wish we could spend more time together (spending 1 day on the weekend and two weekday evenings together at this time).
How does my NT partner interpret this? I'm demanding, codependent, I don't support her spending time with her kids or work, I'm selfish, needy, I don't respect her needs, I'm rushing her to move in together too quickly, etc. Like, no, I understand why we can't spend more time together. I'm not suggesting anything actually change. I just have heart-felt desire to spend more time together and I'm expressing that. That's literally it.
Everything is like this. I'm being manipulative, even though I'm putting 90% of the time, energy and money into the relationship (she comes over, I've made dinner and dessert, planned entertainment, give her a shoulder rub while we do whatever, then she leaves and I clean everything up).
Or if I say that it's hard for me when she says she's going to do something and then doesn't and it would be better if she just didn't promise it in the first place, then I'm calling her a liar and lazy and placing too many expectations on her etc. and this is also me being manipulative. When I say I'm not being manipulative, and point out that I'm not actually asking for anything really, well now I'm gas lighting her. Now she expects an apology because I hurt her feelings and I'm just like "What? I was trying to convey something nice in one instance and telling you you're hurting me in another and somehow I have to apologize? That makes no sense!" The exasperation. I'm working towards just living off grid in the woods with no humans around.
@@kracklinkamphyre7142 Sounds like quite the nightmare. I'm frigid so it's easier for me to leave that alone. The emotional connection is harder to live without but my experience was that it wasn't really available anyway.
Hermiting is overrated cos the normys miss you bothering them, go for it, - annoy people
@@corsai7506 Nice one.
Same here
If you think Cassandra Syndrome is bad between a NT person and an ASD person, you should see what it's like between two late-diagnosed ASD people who aren't on _exactly_ the same wavelength and who are packed full of decades of self-developed coping mechanisms.
This is me and my partner! Whew.
This sounds like my past relationship. She told me being an undiagnosed asd and during those couple of years I seriously considered and convinced myself on being one myself (because it explained a lot about my past and current life). We both kind of accused each other for lying several times. It was a confusing mess.
My husband, my son and I are all autistic but we're not all exactly the same. I can say that my husband was the first person that I ever felt that I could truly be myself with. He understands me more than anyone I've ever met.
Our son also has ADHD and when we ask a question, half the time he doesn't hear it at all. We're trying to teach him to just say something if he needs more time to process so that we know if we need to repeat it or if he just needs more time to think about it (he's 12). The phrase "let me think about that" or even "just a minute" are things we're working on. It's strange how something that you might do can still be annoying when your child does it because you know how the rest of the world sees it. I was chastised all the time when I was his age and my parents chastise him whenever they babysit. It's frustrating because they don't "believe in autism"
I like that you’re trying to help him out a bit by telling him to let you know if he needs more time to respond. I wish my parents and some colleagues would have done that, as sometimes I did need more than the two seconds they expected me to respond in.
I don’t know if I am autistic (was diagnosed in 2000, wasn’t told until later in life…) but my current counsellor thinks it could be C-PTSD instead. I also have suspected dyspraxia and ADHD. Hoping the new surgery I’m registering with will refer me for (re)assessments.
Also, I can’t stand anyone who doesn’t “believe” in neurodivergent states.
I don’t think it gets talked about often enough how much of an internal struggle it can be being an ND parent of ND kids in a largely NT society, especially when it comes to managing certain behaviors. You might 100% understand where your kid is coming from, and even be guilty of said behaviors yourself, but you still feel like you need to help them be aware of what behaviors are OK in which situations/locations and that we need to do our best to speak to each other respectfully, even if we’re upset. Idk if that would be considered masking, but I feel like we all have a responsibility to grow as people and master ourselves as best we can, not to be people pleasers, but to not be a prisoner of our whims and be able to be the best version of ourselves
Idk man, I’m still trying to figure this all out. I’m in the middle of the official diagnosis process, but for what it’s worth, autism and ADHD both strongly resonate with me and explain a lot about my life
Depending on which generation I'm speaking with or how familiar we are with each other, I'll choose terminology like, "Loading, Processing, Spooling, Please Wait," or, "Error loading. Trying again." Or downright, "Does not compute." 😅
"my parents chastise him whenever they babysit," this breaks my heart. 💔
I am neurotypical and dating a guy with autism and I gotta say, I absolutely love his direct, open and honest style of communication and I kinda adapted it
it makes things so much easier and makes at least me feel even more emotionally connected and it builds trust on both sides
it felt like a breath of fresh air after my ex boyfriend who bottled up his emotions until problems piled up too high
How lovely to read this ❤
My wife felt the same while dating; no lies, no BS, no jealousy. But that was before diagnosis. After years of marriage, she pined for more authentic connection and complained my lack of jealousy came off as uncaring. Point being: don’t expect us to change one day and become something we aren’t made to be.
I guess I am lucky then because I have the most authentic connection with my partner that I ever had with anyone and I thrive off of being super loyal, so I dont give him reason to be jealous and dont expect him to be
but ofc there's always little imperfections where one might hope for change but I'm aware that I'll have to see how it goes and shouldn't push too hard, if he cant do it, that's that and we'll have to figure out how to handle it
perhaps your ex was also Neurodivergent, living with too much shame to live authentically, and was masking until external demand exceeded his capacity to cope internally.
@@M2Mil7er no, I think it was more of a toxic masculine thing of feeling like he cant admit to his problems and has to deal with everything himself