The egg teeth issue was only reported from one breeder with a couple offspring. RCK has reportedly produced over 100 supers already and only 2 drowned in the egg. Considering these numbers it is not anything unlike any other morph at this time. As more information comes out we will continue releasing it.
It’s cool the reptile community is starting to get to a place where we can talk about these things and have increased transparency and consideration towards the animals health. Seems like we need more data for the super cappuccinos 🤔
Nice to see someone showing so much care and respect for our little gecko friends... I've just taken over the care and ownership of a 7 year old crestie and she is beautiful and your channel has helped me out loads having no previous experience with any reptile, thank you for your great work 🤘🏻
I trust in whatever direction you go, the way you guys care for your animals and how healthy they are is all I need to know you will make good decisions in your breeding projects.
Absolutely love your level minded approach and mitigation principles with this. I agree with you 100%. I personally think breeding this particular morph will improve it and its weaknesses in time if we stick to the principles like you have mentioned here. This is a viable morph with viable super, so it is up to us to improve for the future for both the animals and the community.
I think you do a good job of diversifying the gene pool so I don't see a problem with breeding them. I had a question, I know you're busy but I was hoping you'd be able to answer. I bred two Dalmatians and so far they've produced 4 hatchlings. I was hoping for a super Dalmatian. Only one has Dalmatian spots (1 month old hatchling,) and I'm not seeing any super Dalmatians. How long does it take in your experience for the super Dalmatian spots to develop?
I think that more knowledgeable breeders such as yourself just need to do more research, selective breeding, and heavy culling to strengthen a better gene pool. Excited to see what you do with them I hope other people really pay attention to ethics in this project in order for it to thrive
@@redheadedbint meaning those that will not thrive or live a pet quality life meaning neurological issues that are severe kind of like with the lemon Frost leopard geckos with the whole tumor fiasco that is what I mean not oh it's not a good enough gecko to be put into a breeding program there for.... Ect
That makes sense. I have my share of special needs reptiles through rescuing and they are mostly created by breeding bad genetics. I am loathe to cull any animal unless it’s suffering, but there are some that really shouldn’t exist in the first place, like (in my opinion) the spider gene in ball pythons. I have a girl here who doesn’t know which way is up and lives her life with her head upside down.
Breeding and using heavy culling is not the answer. To me that sounds like human greed to produce a super with no issues, many should die for the cause...? That’s a big no for me.
YES as soon as I seen your cappuccino in your other video I fell in LOVE and wondered why there wasn’t any on your website for sale ! If I were to ever get a gecko 🦎that’s the one I would want. Personally. Color wise ❤😊
Its funny i know exactly who you are referring to we actually talked about it the night it happened but decided best to track lineages and diversified is best hopefully you have bought yours from the different blood lines they look very different each line has different look. Hopefully in time mine line proves out down the line.
Supers really bother me with the nostril and eye issues. If those can be fixed with selective breeding that’s great. But what will it look like in the journey getting there? To get there means many supers with less desirable traits will be produced as a by product of their goal. Who knows how easy it will be to achieve the perfect super cap with no issues. To me it’s not ethical to knowingly create an animal that can have issues. As for regular caps and fraps they seem healthy and totally fine. I’m okay with them. Hopefully no issues will crop up with them
What your saying makes a lot of sense but out in the wild don't you think they probably don't go far from where they hatch. So you would think they would all be inbreeding.
Much like royal python morphs that have associated issues, I suspect it isn't an issue of bloodlines but linked to the mutation. I wouldn't breed them personally.
I really hate seeing animals suffer just because they "look cool". It's the same thing as Pugs. Yes they're cute but at what cost? I'm not a breeder myself and know nothing about genetics so I'm not sure what exactly goes into making new morphs but I'm sure there's a way to make a new morph that looks cool and also doesn't give the gecko any genetic traits that will lower its quality of life
The thing with any of the bracycephalic breeds of dog (pugs, Brussels, even some mastiff to an extent) is that the length of soft palette does not affect the breathing ability - pinched nares do. I know several nice, well bred pugs from ethical breeders who put health at the forefront of their programs that are VERY successful in agility, for instance - you've got to be able to breathe well to do that. Those damn pugs are more fit than I am because I sure as hell can do all that running 😂 Do i personally think they could stand to breed longer muzzles? Sure, but i dont know that its going to fix the breathing issue if we dont also focus on nares. It's going to come down to people who are NOT putting the bottom dollar first - in EVERY species.
I'm curious to see whether it's something we can selectively breed away from, or if the nostril issue is directly linked to the gene itself. I think it's going to be necessary to continue to prove out possibles, simply because there are so few people in the country (US) with known, proven lines to buy from, and I worry about us circling the drain with the same genetic material and bottlenecking, thus weakening the gene overall, but I do think it needs to be done with caution and with care. If I prove out my poss capp, for instance, I would be keeping any and all super capp offspring. Whether that's indefinitely or until I am absolutely certain they are strong and virile enough would remain to be seen. Diversifying the genetic aspect will hopefully help as well. We started with a lot of bald animals and worked our way to a stronger species overall and I think that can be done here as well.
I agree. Genetic bottlenecking is a very real issue but I do believe there are more cappuccinos out there that people are not aware of. As we pay more attention to the traits we will see new "lines" pop up
@@TikisGeckos Oh, absolutely. Tom's line is one he's been sitting on for at least a decade. RBM clearly has had them for at least 8 years. They're out there - people just need to know what they have. Breeding mother to son is the fastest way to prove an animal out but the people working with cappuccino are all very pleasant to work with and are absolutely willing to help out in that department so we don't HAVE to game of thrones the geckos. If anyone went to Ricky, I know he'd be more than willing to help. The question then becomes, do you breed a possible to other animals and hold everything back until you're able to prove the line out 3 generations down the road, or do you prove the parent out with unrelated (or as unrelated as we can get) animals from somewhere else? Will it make a difference in the long run? We need people to keep working with these to figure it out, or else we may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I don’t know who started this different angle camera shot. It’s annoying to me no matter who does it. You guys are taking it to a different level with the hiding half covered shot. 😂
No having no egg tooth is not genetic I've had many snakesI have to be cut open because they have no egg tooth and they didn't produce babies that did that But with these geckos I'm pretty sure it would be an incubational problem
This situation could get bad very quickly and I give kudos to those who have recognized these issues and come out with the information to help the community. With what to do about it, I believe you are dealing with it ethically and with the best in mind for the species, individual animals, and customers. Personally? If I wanted the Super Cappuccino I would outbreed with other lines of cappuccinos and asses my lines as I do so as well as listen to the community about what has been happening. If I decided to try for the super version, I would not do a direct breed back. Instead, I would lean towards breeding at least one branch over such as cousin to cousin, aunt-nephew, or uncle-niece instead of parent to child or brother to sister. Hopefully, others will also work to create a much stronger, healthier line instead of a package of ill animals people want to cull (a horrible outcome indeed). It is a good sign that crested gecko breeders are being clear about issues. Thank you also for bringing it forward to our attention.
This reminds me a lot of how dapple dachshunds are bread to create double dapples. They beautiful dogs but frequently they have blindness and deafness, among other issues when bread, due to them being basically an incestuous bloodline. Similar to how blue eyes in humans were created from incest, from what I’ve heard, I see many dapples with blue eyes. I think it’s unhealthy to breed them, because your subjecting dogs to live a life with issues.
Couldn’t have said it better myself a lot of people straight up don’t give props to a lot of breeders and bash them working with a gene that have a possibility (not always a guarantee) of having a defect. Basically demonizing these very passionate breeders saying that they specifically breed these animals for the defects or just don’t care but to the contrary …part of the responsibility of a breeder is to refine your lines and make them stronger and breed out these said defects. Defects happen regardless in any animal or morphs. One person doesn’t have to like and breed every morph you can have your preferences for what ever reason but I wish the hobby was more open minded about these certain types of things. And it’s never okay hate someone over it especially if they don’t have the experience and research to back up their claims.
New breeder here, I just wanted to join the discussion and give my 2 cents. I'm more inclined to believe that all these abnormalities we see in super Capps are related to the gene itself and not from a poor genetic pool. The reason why I think that, is that Capps were in circulation for a long time as explained by RCK, before the morph was proven. There's people all over the world finding Capps in their collection, this gene probably had more outcrossing than any other proven mutation so far. I personally think that "regular breeders" should fall back and let the veterans work carefully with this gene. If it's possible to fix these issues through selective breeding, these big breeders with huge collections will have the means and the knowledge to do it. I think Capp breeders should be respected because they were honest about everything, and they were the pioneers, taking the risk to potentially provide us with a new morph. Now they're also the ones trying to work with the gene and fix what needs to be fixed, with A LOT of money on the line. As a new breeder, I don't have the financial power to be working with Capps, but even if I had, I wouldn't sell any for now as I don't want to incentivize careless breeding. Capps are fine, but I know that a lot of people would take advantage of the lower prices to produce super Capps. As of right now, breeding Capps X Capps is just like breeding LW X LW, morally wrong. Except if it's done by experienced breeders as part of the process of fixing the problems, but never just to make a profit. Let's see what the veterans can do with this gene, I'll be paying close attention and following their work. Cheers from Portugal!
The egg teeth issue was only reported from one breeder with a couple offspring. RCK has reportedly produced over 100 supers already and only 2 drowned in the egg. Considering these numbers it is not anything unlike any other morph at this time. As more information comes out we will continue releasing it.
Came for the geckos, now want the chihuahua
It’s cool the reptile community is starting to get to a place where we can talk about these things and have increased transparency and consideration towards the animals health. Seems like we need more data for the super cappuccinos 🤔
100% agree
Super interesting video. Thanks!
This was a great take on supers, couldn't have said it better myself!
Yes!
Nice to see someone showing so much care and respect for our little gecko friends... I've just taken over the care and ownership of a 7 year old crestie and she is beautiful and your channel has helped me out loads having no previous experience with any reptile, thank you for your great work 🤘🏻
cool video and topic thanks for sharing!
I trust in whatever direction you go, the way you guys care for your animals and how healthy they are is all I need to know you will make good decisions in your breeding projects.
Absolutely love your level minded approach and mitigation principles with this. I agree with you 100%.
I personally think breeding this particular morph will improve it and its weaknesses in time if we stick to the principles like you have mentioned here.
This is a viable morph with viable super, so it is up to us to improve for the future for both the animals and the community.
learned so much!! love your breeding ethics!!
I got one from petco by accident 😭😭 he’s a dark cap can’t wait till he grows ☄️
Thank you guys very much for the important information BIG DOGGIE 💯👣
This was your best video to date and that's not said lightly
I think you do a good job of diversifying the gene pool so I don't see a problem with breeding them.
I had a question, I know you're busy but I was hoping you'd be able to answer. I bred two Dalmatians and so far they've produced 4 hatchlings. I was hoping for a super Dalmatian. Only one has Dalmatian spots (1 month old hatchling,) and I'm not seeing any super Dalmatians. How long does it take in your experience for the super Dalmatian spots to develop?
I think that more knowledgeable breeders such as yourself just need to do more research, selective breeding, and heavy culling to strengthen a better gene pool. Excited to see what you do with them I hope other people really pay attention to ethics in this project in order for it to thrive
Thank you. We will definitely do our best to strengthen the gene and outcross it as much as possible.
Heavy culling? Yikes
@@redheadedbint meaning those that will not thrive or live a pet quality life meaning neurological issues that are severe kind of like with the lemon Frost leopard geckos with the whole tumor fiasco that is what I mean not oh it's not a good enough gecko to be put into a breeding program there for.... Ect
That makes sense. I have my share of special needs reptiles through rescuing and they are mostly created by breeding bad genetics. I am loathe to cull any animal unless it’s suffering, but there are some that really shouldn’t exist in the first place, like (in my opinion) the spider gene in ball pythons. I have a girl here who doesn’t know which way is up and lives her life with her head upside down.
Breeding and using heavy culling is not the answer. To me that sounds like human greed to produce a super with no issues, many should die for the cause...? That’s a big no for me.
YES as soon as I seen your cappuccino in your other video I fell in LOVE and wondered why there wasn’t any on your website for sale ! If I were to ever get a gecko 🦎that’s the one I would want. Personally. Color wise ❤😊
Its funny i know exactly who you are referring to we actually talked about it the night it happened but decided best to track lineages and diversified is best hopefully you have bought yours from the different blood lines they look very different each line has different look. Hopefully in time mine line proves out down the line.
Supers really bother me with the nostril and eye issues. If those can be fixed with selective breeding that’s great. But what will it look like in the journey getting there? To get there means many supers with less desirable traits will be produced as a by product of their goal. Who knows how easy it will be to achieve the perfect super cap with no issues. To me it’s not ethical to knowingly create an animal that can have issues.
As for regular caps and fraps they seem healthy and totally fine. I’m okay with them. Hopefully no issues will crop up with them
Crested geckos without crests...no thanks I'll pass
How about starting with not breeding sibling to sibling or parent to kid
It's not from inbreeding. My line of Capps aren't closely related at all. I'm sure it being translucent/ reduced scaling has a role in it.
Great video! I'm with you on the breeding supers..... I myself not a fan of the supers.
What your saying makes a lot of sense but out in the wild don't you think they probably don't go far from where they hatch. So you would think they would all be inbreeding.
Look into cold fusion crested geckos would love to see you with a couple
Much like royal python morphs that have associated issues, I suspect it isn't an issue of bloodlines but linked to the mutation. I wouldn't breed them personally.
💜💚🥰💚💜
I really hate seeing animals suffer just because they "look cool". It's the same thing as Pugs. Yes they're cute but at what cost? I'm not a breeder myself and know nothing about genetics so I'm not sure what exactly goes into making new morphs but I'm sure there's a way to make a new morph that looks cool and also doesn't give the gecko any genetic traits that will lower its quality of life
The thing with any of the bracycephalic breeds of dog (pugs, Brussels, even some mastiff to an extent) is that the length of soft palette does not affect the breathing ability - pinched nares do. I know several nice, well bred pugs from ethical breeders who put health at the forefront of their programs that are VERY successful in agility, for instance - you've got to be able to breathe well to do that. Those damn pugs are more fit than I am because I sure as hell can do all that running 😂 Do i personally think they could stand to breed longer muzzles? Sure, but i dont know that its going to fix the breathing issue if we dont also focus on nares.
It's going to come down to people who are NOT putting the bottom dollar first - in EVERY species.
I say breed them to be stronger
I'm curious to see whether it's something we can selectively breed away from, or if the nostril issue is directly linked to the gene itself.
I think it's going to be necessary to continue to prove out possibles, simply because there are so few people in the country (US) with known, proven lines to buy from, and I worry about us circling the drain with the same genetic material and bottlenecking, thus weakening the gene overall, but I do think it needs to be done with caution and with care. If I prove out my poss capp, for instance, I would be keeping any and all super capp offspring. Whether that's indefinitely or until I am absolutely certain they are strong and virile enough would remain to be seen.
Diversifying the genetic aspect will hopefully help as well. We started with a lot of bald animals and worked our way to a stronger species overall and I think that can be done here as well.
I agree. Genetic bottlenecking is a very real issue but I do believe there are more cappuccinos out there that people are not aware of. As we pay more attention to the traits we will see new "lines" pop up
@@TikisGeckos Oh, absolutely. Tom's line is one he's been sitting on for at least a decade. RBM clearly has had them for at least 8 years. They're out there - people just need to know what they have.
Breeding mother to son is the fastest way to prove an animal out but the people working with cappuccino are all very pleasant to work with and are absolutely willing to help out in that department so we don't HAVE to game of thrones the geckos. If anyone went to Ricky, I know he'd be more than willing to help. The question then becomes, do you breed a possible to other animals and hold everything back until you're able to prove the line out 3 generations down the road, or do you prove the parent out with unrelated (or as unrelated as we can get) animals from somewhere else? Will it make a difference in the long run?
We need people to keep working with these to figure it out, or else we may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I don’t know who started this different angle camera shot. It’s annoying to me no matter who does it. You guys are taking it to a different level with the hiding half covered shot. 😂
No having no egg tooth is not genetic I've had many snakesI have to be cut open because they have no egg tooth and they didn't produce babies that did that But with these geckos I'm pretty sure it would be an incubational problem
This situation could get bad very quickly and I give kudos to those who have recognized these issues and come out with the information to help the community. With what to do about it, I believe you are dealing with it ethically and with the best in mind for the species, individual animals, and customers.
Personally? If I wanted the Super Cappuccino I would outbreed with other lines of cappuccinos and asses my lines as I do so as well as listen to the community about what has been happening. If I decided to try for the super version, I would not do a direct breed back. Instead, I would lean towards breeding at least one branch over such as cousin to cousin, aunt-nephew, or uncle-niece instead of parent to child or brother to sister.
Hopefully, others will also work to create a much stronger, healthier line instead of a package of ill animals people want to cull (a horrible outcome indeed). It is a good sign that crested gecko breeders are being clear about issues. Thank you also for bringing it forward to our attention.
This reminds me a lot of how dapple dachshunds are bread to create double dapples. They beautiful dogs but frequently they have blindness and deafness, among other issues when bread, due to them being basically an incestuous bloodline. Similar to how blue eyes in humans were created from incest, from what I’ve heard, I see many dapples with blue eyes. I think it’s unhealthy to breed them, because your subjecting dogs to live a life with issues.
Couldn’t have said it better myself a lot of people straight up don’t give props to a lot of breeders and bash them working with a gene that have a possibility (not always a guarantee) of having a defect. Basically demonizing these very passionate breeders saying that they specifically breed these animals for the defects or just don’t care but to the contrary …part of the responsibility of a breeder is to refine your lines and make them stronger and breed out these said defects. Defects happen regardless in any animal or morphs. One person doesn’t have to like and breed every morph you can have your preferences for what ever reason but I wish the hobby was more open minded about these certain types of things. And it’s never okay hate someone over it especially if they don’t have the experience and research to back up their claims.
Report them.
New breeder here, I just wanted to join the discussion and give my 2 cents. I'm more inclined to believe that all these abnormalities we see in super Capps are related to the gene itself and not from a poor genetic pool. The reason why I think that, is that Capps were in circulation for a long time as explained by RCK, before the morph was proven. There's people all over the world finding Capps in their collection, this gene probably had more outcrossing than any other proven mutation so far.
I personally think that "regular breeders" should fall back and let the veterans work carefully with this gene. If it's possible to fix these issues through selective breeding, these big breeders with huge collections will have the means and the knowledge to do it. I think Capp breeders should be respected because they were honest about everything, and they were the pioneers, taking the risk to potentially provide us with a new morph. Now they're also the ones trying to work with the gene and fix what needs to be fixed, with A LOT of money on the line.
As a new breeder, I don't have the financial power to be working with Capps, but even if I had, I wouldn't sell any for now as I don't want to incentivize careless breeding. Capps are fine, but I know that a lot of people would take advantage of the lower prices to produce super Capps. As of right now, breeding Capps X Capps is just like breeding LW X LW, morally wrong. Except if it's done by experienced breeders as part of the process of fixing the problems, but never just to make a profit.
Let's see what the veterans can do with this gene, I'll be paying close attention and following their work. Cheers from Portugal!