The safety window AND the ability to enjoy a lean AFR at light load cruising speed in a street car is what makes EFI so great. In a nutshell, CONTROL is what makes EFI so wonderful..
@@Olds_Pwr Replacing the EFI with a carb is going to change the amount of power that the engine makes. I can't find any reference to the Festiva having MPI.
Rich, this is probably the best video I have seen on this subject. Very in depth and informative. Thank you! I for the most part, am an old school carb guy, but there is no doubt that fuel injection has its advantages too! To say one is outright better than the other would not be true. Each has their own perks and pitfalls! Keep up the great work!
Not crazy at all. When you figure the guys that designed, tested, and developed efi only had carbs as a base to improve from. The mindset was the same, and at the end of the day the engine needs x amount of air and x amount of fuel to make x amount of power. What's interesting is the charge cooling of the carb. I'd like to see this test with a 4bbl throttle body that has 4 injectors vs the carb. I bet the results would be the same (as far as charge cooling, not cylinder to cylinder distribution)
@@frankdatank7751 no it's because petrol goes down the intake manifold rather then being shot directly at the intake port. The petrol does the cooling.
Absolute perfect description of both types, reasons and effects of how and why. This segways into a blow-thru comparison. It'd be good to show people how crazy cool the intake air gets with a blown through carb.
Mr. Holder I just want to take a second and thank you for all that you do I'm a 50 year old man that has always enjoyed the hobby of cars . As I've gotten older and health Is Not What It has always been I've kind of come to the conclusion I don't have a whole lot of cars left to build. One of my dreams that I have never done is finally build one Ground Pounder, I have got a 63 Ford Fairlane bucket seat center console 3 on the tree Fairlane that I'm going to be building into a thunderbolt tribute car over the last year I have picked up a few variations of motors, I have a truck 6.0 that only had about 10,000 Miles when it was wrecked I also have an older 5.3 with about 150,000 miles and a 390 Fe did I was going to stroke out to 427 or thereabouts. Watching your videos has been so entertaining educational and even able to show more budget ways of doing things although I have yet decided what I'm going to do as a motor much less the injection you have opened up a whole new world for me, keep doing what you do especially for the younger generation what you give to us free here on RUclips watching your videos the knowledge to make the right decision or the affordable decision out of everyone in the RUclips world you have truly been a blessing and I just wanted to thank you for all of your hard work and all of your easy-to-follow videos. In Closing let me know what you want me to bring to you the Fe or the 6.0 so we can run it through its paces, LOL take care Master holder and thank you for all you do sincerely David Broome. Atlanta Georgia.
There's no reason ill informed people should be out there with all the knowledge you're spreading with these videos.I haven't built a car in years but still watch all these videos because the day will come when I build another one and all this information helps out tremendously
@@sprintcardriver8 the charge cooling on an E85 carb will be identical to a tbi EFI system. You won't get more charge cooling unless you add extra fuel. The disadvantage will be that on a carb setup you can't switch between regular and E85 without rejetting the carb.
I love this test, and I'm always amazed how surprisingly well carburetors work given everything that's stacked against them, specially when you consider the difference in cost. So many guys now put EFI on weekend cruisers that never see huge power output, and IMO its just not worth it unless you just want EFI. I love EFI in my modern daily driven Hemi, I'd use it if I had a drag car (even if I were using an old school big-block v8), but something just appeals to me about the elegant simplicity of a carb on my 60s 440s used for weekend cruising. Its cool that a device that's been around over a hundred years, with no electrical parts, and powered only by moving air doing 90% as good a job as something with 8 injectors, at least 5 sensors, and a computer. I'd also like to see one of those all-in-one TBI systems (FiTech or Sniper) thrown in the mix here. I have mixed feelings about them- on the one hand they should provide charge cooling throughout the intake just like a carb does while having at least the same AVERAGE AFR control of sequential port EFI for (theoretically) better cold starting and driveability. On the other hand, they should have all the same fuel distribution problems that carbs have. and all the failure points (injectors, sensors, computer, higher pressure fuel pump) of EFI.
MajorLeague after watching data logging on modern engines under varying load, it’s clear that a whole bunch of the efficiency and power gains we used to say were “because of fuel injection” were really from having a much more adaptable timing map.
Probably the most informative video on RUclips- I can tell myself that I know everything about induction but this guy can explain it (and back it up with results). If you truly understand something, it is easy to explain to others. Thanks for the learning experience!
Orion Smith just add water/methanol injection to the SFI. TBI is great if you’re just getting started with EFI but it has the exact same problem of high and low A/F cylinders as a carburetor does, due to the microscopic differences between runners, valve clearances, valve seat conditions, etc. unless you’re running 8 individual carbs or a manifold with perfectly tuned equal runners, and rebuilding your engine every 10 hours of run time, you’ll never get perfect A/F in each cylinder with any kind of fuel delivery in one single location.
The issue when using a carb or throttle body that is too big is, the larger you make the opening, the more the loss in velocity of the charge down the intake runner. I was surprised at how small the power diff was showing the Lambda chart. I was sure the richer AFR in green wasn't going to be as close to the others as it was. Great video!!!
Biggest thing I see in this industry some guys gets it really complicated and confusing. Old racer told me years ago keep it simple and use common since I have listen to that statement he made to me years ago successful racer because he kept it simple and was inducted into hall Fame great guy consistant racer
Excellent video and very enlightening. It always scares me how different AFR is between cylinders , that's why I always tune richer than usual I might lose a couple of hp but the engine is safe
Very cool. Just added a sniper to my previously carbed LS1 in my 69 camaro. Love the way the car drives now. Totally worth the fuel pump and fan control.
A long-term test would be interesting to see how/if A/F ratios and mileage changes with different seasons and elevations. Then a periodic dyno session thrown in where you test each one for power. You could even visit different dynos at different locations (temps/elevations) to see the power/efficiency difference between each setup even if the overall numbers don't matter. Carbs always do well on a dyno, but I think I would have a hard time keeping up with EFI performance in the real world unless I'm a carb savant.
Carb vs efi and results were almost the same. You did pick the right cam also. What people don't understand is, N/A the cam is limited by the heads that are used. VERY good test and proof of what the outcome was!
I'm so fed up with my stroked LS1 EFI im seriously about to move to a LS carb setup. I'm between a Edlebrock 800cfm intake carb kit carb swap and Edlebrock 4150 style Pro Flo 4+ setup. I rather spend hundreds of dollars on a nice carb then have to pay a tuner every time I need something done. And electronics like to fail. Great video! Been watching you since the 4.3L
Yes afr makes little difference in power , however if the afr is corrected in each cylinder ,it lets you add timing and we all know that does make power so I think for that reason and others injection is better , however we didn’t talk about money. Thanks for a great video . Dwayne NZ.
Best video yet! Proves two things I tell people about a lot and they always ignore- AFRs doesn't have a drastic effect on power, but almost all intake setups have wildly differing airflow cyl to cyl, dangerously so! It's much worse with boost than N/A in my experience too. Good work sir, keep it up.
biggest difference between the carb and the batch EFI was Manifold Air Density/Manifold Air Temperature. Charge cooling has so many benefits as far as power production is concerned, and is the reason why older (2000-2013 N/A) F1 engines utilized Gantry-style injection, where the injectors were placed at the outer edge of the air horns. I would think the most ideal setup (with money as no object) would be a set of 8 ITB's put in a cross-ram style that can vary their intake runner length in the same fashion as the system utilized on the LaFerrari V12. That way you get all the benefits of control that come with Fuel injection, the charge cooling benefits of a carburetor, and an intake that can lengthen and shorten at will to match the demands of the engine for a given RPM/load/Throttle position.
Another great test. I would like to see the throttle body injected Units tested against carb and port, especially with forced induction. Also would like to see how well the gm efi manifolds distribute air. How about touching on hp and knock threshold vs coolant temp in forced induction applications.
My opinion EFI is good if you know how to tune it And if you want to save the engine for longer time that is your option but if you’re trying to make Powell my opinion I would go with a carb little less technology A lot of times if you trying to go down a dragstrip it is sometimes better to have less technology due to the fact less can go rong
Great video Richard. I think you really hit all the points on this one. You've also demonstrated why, when running poor quality fuel (e.g. California 91 octane) it's always better to err on the richer side under heavy load. The power hit is so minimal but I'd much rather be running 12-13:1 spread (I don't think its that bad on most factory LS manifolds, but maybe on some) than 13-14:1.
Great information, highlights how important boosted engines need a reasonable a/f for each cylinder. Steve did the twin carb tuning a while back staggered the jet to get a reasonable distribution.. Great vid..
As a first time viewer, I enjoyed this video. Someone actually posted it in a FB argument in an LSx swap group. They said carburetors make more power than FI due to better atomization. Me, knowing better, told them they are crazy. They posted this video in response. I greatly appreciate and respect your experiment here. Definitely more knowledgeable, experienced, and better equipped than I will [likely] ever be. But this isn't quite the full story. One point: if the carburetor does better down low, and then falls off in the upper RPMs, then looking at the A/F curve, you notice the carb is lean down low and becomes rich up high, why would you not mimic the FI curve to be more lean in lower RPMs? This video, as proper experiment should be, operated on an 'all things being equal' plane. You did a fantastic job of trying to eliminate variables between carb and FI here. But 'all things being equal' isn't the point of FI. That cuts off the massive benefits to FI. The point of FI is that you CAN do amazing things. You can tune each cylinder individually, the computer can rapidly adjust to radically different operating environments (cold weather, hot weather, humidity, altitude, etc). Infinite variability in the fuel injection. Simply not possible for carburetors without physically changing aspects of the carb. The massive amount of information and control that is possibly ONLY with FI makes it a no brainer. It doesn't do FI justice to have it compete against carburetion in a very static, one-mode only environment. The carburetor is perfectly tuned for that one environment, while the FI is tuned 99% as well over a wide range of environments. The POTENTIAL is much greater with FI. Also, if you say the carb'd engine benefits from charge cooling, I'd like to see what happens when you give colder air to the FI engine. Or maybe give colder air to both of them and see which benefits more.
HOLY COW !! I thought for sure the power difference would be a bunch!! NOT ! wow eye opening .. thank you so much for doing these videos to educate us !! (me) : )
great video. I learned carb (my home made rochestor) TBI (15psi) and multiport on the same engine. A boxer self balanced 3 main. the multiport allows engine to last longer with the same numbers. TBI goes lean instead of fat like carb would at the top... and in vast temperature ranges, the carb is simply a serial killer. I am now running an SBC from 1996 in my gmc truck..379k miles, no end in sight. drove all of them since the days of four barrel. My biggest engine was the 4 barrel... and the engine died very young. I usually sit back and let arguments fly today.. I just turned 47. your patience is very good. Multiport is the winner. no need to argue. Just get out in the real world and learn it.
I’ve seen back to back dyno runs where you change afr’s from say 13.0 down to 12.0, only difference is in safety. What surprised me was the carb vs efi and the individual cylinder tuning. I would of figured carb vs efi would make the same peak numbers but efi would make slightly more everywhere else. I also thought there would be more of a gain by individual cylinder tuning. But I guess if ignition timing was all controlled in the same way you’d get similar results
Great video! Perhaps a video on carb versus injector further out from the valve, equal distance from the valve as the carb and further out to find the sweet spot of the cooling effect of the fuel.
Richard there is a way to tune at a certain RPM with a carburetor and keep the carb rich at one spot and lean it out at another area. There is a guy on RUclips that made his own product called the "Carb Cheater" and it uses an A/F meter to control a regulated air blead that meters air in the motor to reach a targeted A/F ratio that you set.
@@BlueCollarBen alot people actually do that, if you want to see how its done go on david frieburger's from roadkill RUclips channel and he explains how it works, does seem to much of a power increase, 10hpish but he said he thinks the Ls firing order increases efficiency and longevity of the motor because it runs alittle smoother
@@BlueCollarBen me too hopefully someone will do it because I'd love to here a Ls with a sbc firing order. It would be the ultimate sleeper, minus the water pump sound that all Ls's have which completely gives it away
It would be interesting to test a few different common inlet manifolds (performance aftermarket and OEM) to observe what AFR variation from air distribution in each one.
I know Nascar could tune individual cylinders with a carb I would like to see how they are able to do this in a upcoming video that would be pretty awesome.Also what about a setup like a Holly sniper setup that takes advantage of the air charge like a carb but is a F.I. system. That would make a good video also. 😁
With this information then a/f ratio with the single carb set-up versus fuel injection ,(sequential),what happens when you do dual carbs ?!?......Miss Engine Masters .no not a motor guy per say just love to feed on the information that really has helped my real world tool box of understanding my engine,(sbc 383),1904 carb ,dual plane ,solid divider wall soon ,(up from a modded out pm2101,to 2601),and a baby cam xr276.......The reason I got the subscription for MTO was you guys over at Engine Masters ...Anyway this was kinda just as good I got the fix I needed !
once the carb, carbs, or injectors achieve the correct AFR, then its all up to the intake runners to deliver that charge UNALTERED to the combustion chamber. how that correct AFR is achieved, the engine doesn't really care. all the engine cares about is that it has enough charge, and the AFR is correct, and the valve and timing events are optimal.
I was thinking carb will win for overall power, but I think drivability and efficiency, fuel injection, I would like to see this with 823 heads and the 469 cam, throttle body versus ls3 intake. That’s what my build is looking like. Thanks for the great videos
Although very few have access to a dyno, he did a good job of showing the strengths and weakness of each, and where there is little difference sometimes between the two. For a little guy on a budget I need info to help me not cook my stuff. No hype = good video!! I'll subscribe after this video.
Now this is cool stuff. Test that go into detail as to why this or that works. One of the 1st real videos that I like from this channel (not trying to sound mean).
You and Gale Banks are my go to channels when I want to see serious data and serious testing! Show me another diesel guy or a gas guy that shares more data! This satisfies my nerdy side so much, I love it!
Modern carbs are great. Everyone is scared of carbs thinking they are going to cause problems starting or cold starting but the fact is I never had issues with carbs on all my cars sure there is a learning curve for manual chokes but I failed to start a cold car in michigan even at 10 below. The fact is carbs ate great unless you are drive in the mountains.
After I thought about this the camshaft was designed for boost not na, so that may make reversion happen on a carb on the top rpm vs. The fuel injection. It would make sense since the overlap and centerline on the cam wouldn't provide signal to the carbs circuit at high rpm
Great content. Lean isn’t always mean. Every air pump is different. You have to give it what she wants. Dyno numbers/timeslips will tell you if your going the right direction.
I didn't think there was going to be much of a difference in peak power, where EFI really stands apart from a carb is everyday usability. It doesn't matter what the weather is like (10 degrees or 100), if you change altitude from sea level to 8000ft or go from pump 91 to E85. If you have the sensors for it EFI will just do its thing and the engine will start, run and behave itself. The carb is great for simplicity, put it in and you could have all of 3 wires connected to the engine and be up and running, systems like the terminator X are making EFI much more beginner friendly. plug it in, answer some Multiple choice questions and it's good enough to drive around on for more common setups with all the every day usability benefits EFI offers for about the price of a nice carb and distributor.
You'll never catch me bitching in the comments.....I'm a young builder and will take every bit of info you want to give me....I love every video you make, keep it up
Fantastic comparison and very well done. Thanks for the charts and graphs to show hard data. I love that you unbiasedly compare stuff with solid results. Keep it up dude!
I ran a tricked out 750 for years before I got sick and tired of always having to Gunk the oscillating idle circuits and switched to a four-barrel TBI. Problem with TBI though is big injectors make more counter EMF which ECMs don't like and they're not as swift for forced induction as MFI. The main advantage of EFI though is it's much easier to tune. Just the mere fact that you can go back to your old map if if your newer one's no better is a game changer. I still have my 750 I can gravity feed should my EFI ever strand me though because I don't think EFI will ever be as bulletproof as carbs are. Even though they both essentially do the same thing, they're as different as apples and oranges.
Throttle body injection for best of both worlds. Charge cooling via fueling at top and set up for TB unit to handle 90% of overall requirement. Set up supplementary fueling at ports with true sequential to make up the other 10% and allow for individual cyl pinpoint A/F ratio. Another option that would be real crazy would be a carb who is jetted at about 80 or 90% required size and port injection in sequential mode for A/F fine tuning.
I like the idea of the individual tuning for safe afr and the efficiency of it. That's gotta help on mpg and keeping the engine happier for a.longer life. All good things for a streetrod/hotrod. C'MON
This is really good testing - thanks for posting! I am confident I can make your carburetor a/f flatter across the rpm band, richening the bottom and leaning out the top (at 14:58). You’re right - the bumps are harder to mitigate, and a lot has to do with the manifold, but you can make it better with a little bit more involved carb tweaks. Maybe we can work something out?? I’d like to take you up on the challenge... -Clayton (a.k.a. Dave N. Ebbert’s buddy)
Thanks for educational video, answers questions about carb vs efi on 5.0 ford. You had mentioned it really is a difference of intakes, and I have seen the light my friend.
Cost is a huge factory. People give me a hard time for having a 418ci LSX with a Carb on my C3. But it works and works well. Plus a huge savings in cost over fuel injection system, a high pressure fuel system and computer tuning. This can be 3x as much as a Holley DP carb and make the same power.
Richard, these test are really informative! You're doing test people haven't done or at least recorded. I really appreciate the effort and knowledge you bring
I would research Ron Krupa, a ford engineer. He was the designer of firestorm spark plugs... He also played a lot with A/F ratios and made a helluva discovery...You might wanna know about. As far as power output for each AF ratio... That would directly correlate to the timing AND ignition Current and how the comp reacted to it. More current = much larger initial spark and flame kernel.. This means more burn, hands down..Voltage only effects the gap jump. Check out the Blue Phoenix. The ecu will not reacted well to this, it will see it as a lean burn...UNTIL you reach a true stoic burn ratio. Which ALL fuel source is consumed and can NO longer support a burn. However a carb isn't effected at all by this. Muhhhaaahh. Remember that an O2 sensor is just a fancy thermoelectric sensor. Its very similar to to your CTS or IAT.
Charge cooling solution is water/methanol injection. I bet that same sequential EFI setup if you added a single meth nozzle a few inches in front of the butterfly plates, and had it spray at a set rpm and up, say 5500, your peak power would add 10 or more. And a bit of water/methanol mix costs pennies compared to the fuel economy losses of the carburetor.
Richard, your LS tech is best in the business. Keep up and let us know more. I would like to see more big inch LS testing, I have 416 short block waiting to get in older car and plan is to keep it looking like carburated but with efi.
I remember my 68 327/275 would blow rich black not tons but from a highway run so high rpm prob built in safety. This explains it well and could you imagine if you were using nitrous! Boom 💥
So here is an experiment. Make up a custom PFI manifold with long horns. On each of these long horns include 4-5 bung locations in which to install injectors Then test each location for power. If the charge cooling hypothesis is correct, then the injector locations near the top of the horns should make the best power.
Carby mixture control across a wide rev range at WOT on the dyno, vacuum secondaries should do it, and they're much better with cable kickdown automatic equipped cars. Do some tesing with a 950 CFM Vac Sec', we'll all learn something worthwhile. While you're at it do it on a single plane to prove it's not airspeed through the boosters that kills the lower rev range power.
There are a lot of fast LS’s that are carded. It’s simple and it has worked for years. Coming from a carded generation and seeing efi come along, a carb is impressive that is doing the same job with so few parts.
Video and audio quality seems to be getting better with every video. Keep them coming!
Hitman Productions sponsorship helps with that
The safety window AND the ability to enjoy a lean AFR at light load cruising speed in a street car is what makes EFI so great. In a nutshell, CONTROL is what makes EFI so wonderful..
Control and consistency. EFI automatically compensates for a huge range of conditions giving consistent operation, carbs don't.
Not to mention mpg increases w fuel injection!
@@Olds_Pwr Then your EFI was either programmed incorrectly, or just a terrible design.
@@Olds_Pwr Then the carbed engine was making significantly less power. A single-point injection system also isn't the height of EFI technology.
@@Olds_Pwr Replacing the EFI with a carb is going to change the amount of power that the engine makes. I can't find any reference to the Festiva having MPI.
Did enjoy the close relationship between the two though shows that carbs aren't crappy archaic technology and still work well
Outstanding video!
Uncle Tony's Garage : Pretty cool UT. But hes got no beard. And he needs a New Jersey. Hed get more hits with mohair....
Uncle Tony's Garage agreed!!!
Uncle Tony!!! Woohoo!!! Very cool seeing ya here!
Rich, this is probably the best video I have seen on this subject. Very in depth and informative. Thank you! I for the most part, am an old school carb guy, but there is no doubt that fuel injection has its advantages too! To say one is outright better than the other would not be true. Each has their own perks and pitfalls! Keep up the great work!
Carbs are awesome crazy how century old technology makes just as much power as efi
Efi was created for economy, better distribution and atomization of fuel plus automatic adjustment via the MAF, o2 sensors.
Not crazy at all. When you figure the guys that designed, tested, and developed efi only had carbs as a base to improve from. The mindset was the same, and at the end of the day the engine needs x amount of air and x amount of fuel to make x amount of power. What's interesting is the charge cooling of the carb. I'd like to see this test with a 4bbl throttle body that has 4 injectors vs the carb. I bet the results would be the same (as far as charge cooling, not cylinder to cylinder distribution)
@@shadowopsairman1583 carburetors atomiz fuel better thats why they will always have a cooler ait
@@frankdatank7751 no it's because petrol goes down the intake manifold rather then being shot directly at the intake port. The petrol does the cooling.
Oh yes this was the one I was waiting on.
I think its time to bring in a Sniper & put it to the test, all its functions!
Absolute perfect description of both types, reasons and effects of how and why.
This segways into a blow-thru comparison. It'd be good to show people how crazy cool the intake air gets with a blown through carb.
james Mcguinness love to see that test!
@@leroyt2590 I saw this a couple weeks ago.
ruclips.net/video/BzvyXGwOMcw/видео.html
I’m a carb guy and I thought EFI was gonna win by a decent bit…. Glad to see this.
Agreed been wanting this answer for a very long time you just answered it thanks again I'm old school carb is for me
Mr. Holder I just want to take a second and thank you for all that you do I'm a 50 year old man that has always enjoyed the hobby of cars . As I've gotten older and health Is Not What It has always been I've kind of come to the conclusion I don't have a whole lot of cars left to build. One of my dreams that I have never done is finally build one Ground Pounder, I have got a 63 Ford Fairlane bucket seat center console 3 on the tree Fairlane that I'm going to be building into a thunderbolt tribute car over the last year I have picked up a few variations of motors, I have a truck 6.0 that only had about 10,000 Miles when it was wrecked I also have an older 5.3 with about 150,000 miles and a 390 Fe did I was going to stroke out to 427 or thereabouts. Watching your videos has been so entertaining educational and even able to show more budget ways of doing things although I have yet decided what I'm going to do as a motor much less the injection you have opened up a whole new world for me, keep doing what you do especially for the younger generation what you give to us free here on RUclips watching your videos the knowledge to make the right decision or the affordable decision out of everyone in the RUclips world you have truly been a blessing and I just wanted to thank you for all of your hard work and all of your easy-to-follow videos. In Closing let me know what you want me to bring to you the Fe or the 6.0 so we can run it through its paces, LOL take care Master holder and thank you for all you do sincerely David Broome. Atlanta Georgia.
There's no reason ill informed people should be out there with all the knowledge you're spreading with these videos.I haven't built a car in years but still watch all these videos because the day will come when I build another one and all this information helps out tremendously
Another good test ready to see the difference between blow thru carb vs blow thru fuel injection
nallen100 there's no other way of getting fuel to a forced induction engine so u don't have much of a choice unless ur running vegetable oil lol
nallen100 that's what I meant factory FI
nallen100 I'm going with blow thru e85 carb that way I don't need an intercooler since it cools the charge better then efi and tuning is more simple
@@sprintcardriver8 the charge cooling on an E85 carb will be identical to a tbi EFI system. You won't get more charge cooling unless you add extra fuel. The disadvantage will be that on a carb setup you can't switch between regular and E85 without rejetting the carb.
I love this test, and I'm always amazed how surprisingly well carburetors work given everything that's stacked against them, specially when you consider the difference in cost. So many guys now put EFI on weekend cruisers that never see huge power output, and IMO its just not worth it unless you just want EFI. I love EFI in my modern daily driven Hemi, I'd use it if I had a drag car (even if I were using an old school big-block v8), but something just appeals to me about the elegant simplicity of a carb on my 60s 440s used for weekend cruising. Its cool that a device that's been around over a hundred years, with no electrical parts, and powered only by moving air doing 90% as good a job as something with 8 injectors, at least 5 sensors, and a computer.
I'd also like to see one of those all-in-one TBI systems (FiTech or Sniper) thrown in the mix here. I have mixed feelings about them- on the one hand they should provide charge cooling throughout the intake just like a carb does while having at least the same AVERAGE AFR control of sequential port EFI for (theoretically) better cold starting and driveability. On the other hand, they should have all the same fuel distribution problems that carbs have. and all the failure points (injectors, sensors, computer, higher pressure fuel pump) of EFI.
MajorLeague after watching data logging on modern engines under varying load, it’s clear that a whole bunch of the efficiency and power gains we used to say were “because of fuel injection” were really from having a much more adaptable timing map.
Thank you Richard, for taking the time to educate us!!
Probably the most informative video on RUclips- I can tell myself that I know everything about induction but this guy can explain it (and back it up with results). If you truly understand something, it is easy to explain to others.
Thanks for the learning experience!
Great tests as always! I’m glad you brought up charge temp. Makes for a great backup test using a TBI setup such as a Holley Sniper X-Flow.
Orion Smith just add water/methanol injection to the SFI. TBI is great if you’re just getting started with EFI but it has the exact same problem of high and low A/F cylinders as a carburetor does, due to the microscopic differences between runners, valve clearances, valve seat conditions, etc. unless you’re running 8 individual carbs or a manifold with perfectly tuned equal runners, and rebuilding your engine every 10 hours of run time, you’ll never get perfect A/F in each cylinder with any kind of fuel delivery in one single location.
The issue when using a carb or throttle body that is too big is, the larger you make the opening, the more the loss in velocity of the charge down the intake runner. I was surprised at how small the power diff was showing the Lambda chart. I was sure the richer AFR in green wasn't going to be as close to the others as it was. Great video!!!
Biggest thing I see in this industry some guys gets it really complicated and confusing. Old racer told me years ago keep it simple and use common since I have listen to that statement he made to me years ago successful racer because he kept it simple and was inducted into hall Fame great guy consistant racer
Excellent video and very enlightening. It always scares me how different AFR is between cylinders , that's why I always tune richer than usual I might lose a couple of hp but the engine is safe
Very cool. Just added a sniper to my previously carbed LS1 in my 69 camaro. Love the way the car drives now. Totally worth the fuel pump and fan control.
A long-term test would be interesting to see how/if A/F ratios and mileage changes with different seasons and elevations. Then a periodic dyno session thrown in where you test each one for power. You could even visit different dynos at different locations (temps/elevations) to see the power/efficiency difference between each setup even if the overall numbers don't matter. Carbs always do well on a dyno, but I think I would have a hard time keeping up with EFI performance in the real world unless I'm a carb savant.
Carb vs efi and results were almost the same. You did pick the right cam also. What people don't understand is, N/A the cam is limited by the heads that are used. VERY good test and proof of what the outcome was!
I'm so fed up with my stroked LS1 EFI im seriously about to move to a LS carb setup. I'm between a Edlebrock 800cfm intake carb kit carb swap and Edlebrock 4150 style Pro Flo 4+ setup. I rather spend hundreds of dollars on a nice carb then have to pay a tuner every time I need something done. And electronics like to fail. Great video! Been watching you since the 4.3L
Yes afr makes little difference in power , however if the afr is corrected in each cylinder ,it lets you add timing and we all know that does make power so I think for that reason and others injection is better , however we didn’t talk about money. Thanks for a great video . Dwayne NZ.
I've never been a complete LS fan......but I'm getting there. What an amazing engine!
thx Richard ,, cleared out all the mud ..
Best video yet! Proves two things I tell people about a lot and they always ignore- AFRs doesn't have a drastic effect on power, but almost all intake setups have wildly differing airflow cyl to cyl, dangerously so!
It's much worse with boost than N/A in my experience too.
Good work sir, keep it up.
biggest difference between the carb and the batch EFI was Manifold Air Density/Manifold Air Temperature. Charge cooling has so many benefits as far as power production is concerned, and is the reason why older (2000-2013 N/A) F1 engines utilized Gantry-style injection, where the injectors were placed at the outer edge of the air horns. I would think the most ideal setup (with money as no object) would be a set of 8 ITB's put in a cross-ram style that can vary their intake runner length in the same fashion as the system utilized on the LaFerrari V12. That way you get all the benefits of control that come with Fuel injection, the charge cooling benefits of a carburetor, and an intake that can lengthen and shorten at will to match the demands of the engine for a given RPM/load/Throttle position.
Another great test. I would like to see the throttle body injected Units tested against carb and port, especially with forced induction.
Also would like to see how well the gm efi manifolds distribute air.
How about touching on hp and knock threshold vs coolant temp in forced induction applications.
My opinion EFI is good if you know how to tune it And if you want to save the engine for longer time that is your option but if you’re trying to make Powell my opinion I would go with a carb little less technology A lot of times if you trying to go down a dragstrip it is sometimes better to have less technology due to the fact less can go rong
Great video Richard. I think you really hit all the points on this one. You've also demonstrated why, when running poor quality fuel (e.g. California 91 octane) it's always better to err on the richer side under heavy load. The power hit is so minimal but I'd much rather be running 12-13:1 spread (I don't think its that bad on most factory LS manifolds, but maybe on some) than 13-14:1.
Like the way you explain why and show what's happening.
Great video and information! So awesome to watch these videos and see these test that I wish I could do!
Great information, highlights how important boosted engines need a reasonable a/f for each cylinder. Steve did the twin carb tuning a while back staggered the jet to get a reasonable distribution.. Great vid..
GRIFFS REARMOUNT TURBO, The Modfather Glad you saw this vid. Love CARBS!
Staggered jetting works well on tunnel rams
Man, I just found your channel the other day. This stuff is pure gold! Keep it up.
this was interesting as hell. fantastic work.
As a first time viewer, I enjoyed this video.
Someone actually posted it in a FB argument in an LSx swap group.
They said carburetors make more power than FI due to better atomization.
Me, knowing better, told them they are crazy. They posted this video in response.
I greatly appreciate and respect your experiment here. Definitely more knowledgeable, experienced, and better equipped than I will [likely] ever be.
But this isn't quite the full story.
One point: if the carburetor does better down low, and then falls off in the upper RPMs, then looking at the A/F curve, you notice the carb is lean down low and becomes rich up high, why would you not mimic the FI curve to be more lean in lower RPMs?
This video, as proper experiment should be, operated on an 'all things being equal' plane. You did a fantastic job of trying to eliminate variables between carb and FI here.
But 'all things being equal' isn't the point of FI. That cuts off the massive benefits to FI.
The point of FI is that you CAN do amazing things. You can tune each cylinder individually, the computer can rapidly adjust to radically different operating environments (cold weather, hot weather, humidity, altitude, etc). Infinite variability in the fuel injection. Simply not possible for carburetors without physically changing aspects of the carb. The massive amount of information and control that is possibly ONLY with FI makes it a no brainer.
It doesn't do FI justice to have it compete against carburetion in a very static, one-mode only environment. The carburetor is perfectly tuned for that one environment, while the FI is tuned 99% as well over a wide range of environments. The POTENTIAL is much greater with FI.
Also, if you say the carb'd engine benefits from charge cooling, I'd like to see what happens when you give colder air to the FI engine. Or maybe give colder air to both of them and see which benefits more.
CHARGE COOLING
HOLY COW !! I thought for sure the power difference would be a bunch!! NOT ! wow eye opening .. thank you so much for doing these videos to educate us !! (me) : )
Great comparison Richard , the reality is even for most people who get their stuff dyno’d they don’t get each cylinder measured individually.
great video. I learned carb (my home made rochestor) TBI (15psi) and multiport on the same engine. A boxer self balanced 3 main. the multiport allows engine to last longer with the same numbers. TBI goes lean instead of fat like carb would at the top... and in vast temperature ranges, the carb is simply a serial killer. I am now running an SBC from 1996 in my gmc truck..379k miles, no end in sight. drove all of them since the days of four barrel. My biggest engine was the 4 barrel... and the engine died very young. I usually sit back and let arguments fly today.. I just turned 47. your patience is very good. Multiport is the winner. no need to argue. Just get out in the real world and learn it.
Another Great Test, Richard!
I’ve seen back to back dyno runs where you change afr’s from say 13.0 down to 12.0, only difference is in safety. What surprised me was the carb vs efi and the individual cylinder tuning. I would of figured carb vs efi would make the same peak numbers but efi would make slightly more everywhere else. I also thought there would be more of a gain by individual cylinder tuning. But I guess if ignition timing was all controlled in the same way you’d get similar results
I’m a carb guy. But you can’t deny the benefits of EFI. Cool vid. The knowledge is just incredible.
Great video! Perhaps a video on carb versus injector further out from the valve, equal distance from the valve as the carb and further out to find the sweet spot of the cooling effect of the fuel.
Richard there is a way to tune at a certain RPM with a carburetor and keep the carb rich at one spot and lean it out at another area. There is a guy on RUclips that made his own product called the "Carb Cheater" and it uses an A/F meter to control a regulated air blead that meters air in the motor to reach a targeted A/F ratio that you set.
I really want to see an LS engine with a SBC firing order swap side by side power comparison!
Me too! Glad I'm not the only one who was wondering that
See I want a SBC with the LS firing order and see the difference. Perhaps they will do both?
@@BlueCollarBen alot people actually do that, if you want to see how its done go on david frieburger's from roadkill RUclips channel and he explains how it works, does seem to much of a power increase, 10hpish but he said he thinks the Ls firing order increases efficiency and longevity of the motor because it runs alittle smoother
Classic Car Garage yep I saw his video on it. I would still like to see just a side by side comparison.
@@BlueCollarBen me too hopefully someone will do it because I'd love to here a Ls with a sbc firing order. It would be the ultimate sleeper, minus the water pump sound that all Ls's have which completely gives it away
It would be interesting to test a few different common inlet manifolds (performance aftermarket and OEM) to observe what AFR variation from air distribution in each one.
I know Nascar could tune individual cylinders with a carb I would like to see how they are able to do this in a upcoming video that would be pretty awesome.Also what about a setup like a Holly sniper setup that takes advantage of the air charge like a carb but is a F.I. system. That would make a good video also. 😁
Wow. Eye opening. I expected the two graphs to be MUCH different... Not almost the exact same
This really shows why it's important to run rich under high load and boost. Individual cylinder afr variance can be super dramatic
Always knowledgeable and unbiased!
Best video of the year
With this information then a/f ratio with the single carb set-up versus fuel injection ,(sequential),what happens when you do dual carbs ?!?......Miss Engine Masters .no not a motor guy per say just love to feed on the information that really has helped my real world tool box of understanding my engine,(sbc 383),1904 carb ,dual plane ,solid divider wall soon ,(up from a modded out pm2101,to 2601),and a baby cam xr276.......The reason I got the subscription for MTO was you guys over at Engine Masters ...Anyway this was kinda just as good I got the fix I needed !
they do good stuff there
once the carb, carbs, or injectors achieve the correct AFR, then its all up to the intake runners to deliver that charge UNALTERED to the combustion chamber. how that correct AFR is achieved, the engine doesn't really care. all the engine cares about is that it has enough charge, and the AFR is correct, and the valve and timing events are optimal.
I love carb vs EFI vids…great accurate comparison
I was thinking carb will win for overall power, but I think drivability and efficiency, fuel injection, I would like to see this with 823 heads and the 469 cam, throttle body versus ls3 intake. That’s what my build is looking like. Thanks for the great videos
Although very few have access to a dyno, he did a good job of showing the strengths and weakness of each, and where there is little difference sometimes between the two. For a little guy on a budget I need info to help me not cook my stuff. No hype = good video!! I'll subscribe after this video.
Now this is cool stuff. Test that go into detail as to why this or that works. One of the 1st real videos that I like from this channel (not trying to sound mean).
before watching i was thinking the LSA would favor the EFI. i'll edit at end. Not surprised at all. well done Rich.
You and Gale Banks are my go to channels when I want to see serious data and serious testing! Show me another diesel guy or a gas guy that shares more data! This satisfies my nerdy side so much, I love it!
Excellent video. Makes you wonder what all the debate is about when it is so close, but my preference for injection has always been the tunability.
Modern carbs are great. Everyone is scared of carbs thinking they are going to cause problems starting or cold starting but the fact is I never had issues with carbs on all my cars sure there is a learning curve for manual chokes but I failed to start a cold car in michigan even at 10 below. The fact is carbs ate great unless you are drive in the mountains.
After I thought about this the camshaft was designed for boost not na, so that may make reversion happen on a carb on the top rpm vs. The fuel injection. It would make sense since the overlap and centerline on the cam wouldn't provide signal to the carbs circuit at high rpm
Richard, pure gold! Thank you!
BTW, we've known how to tune a carb at any RPM, vacuum, and throttle position setting for a couple decades now.
Excellent videos such valuable info that such a small percentage people ever get to see or learn.
Great content. Lean isn’t always mean. Every air pump is different. You have to give it what she wants. Dyno numbers/timeslips will tell you if your going the right direction.
This guy is awesome. So much information.
The Ultra XP is a great carb & seems to be always close on jetting out of the box.
I didn't think there was going to be much of a difference in peak power, where EFI really stands apart from a carb is everyday usability. It doesn't matter what the weather is like (10 degrees or 100), if you change altitude from sea level to 8000ft or go from pump 91 to E85. If you have the sensors for it EFI will just do its thing and the engine will start, run and behave itself.
The carb is great for simplicity, put it in and you could have all of 3 wires connected to the engine and be up and running, systems like the terminator X are making EFI much more beginner friendly. plug it in, answer some Multiple choice questions and it's good enough to drive around on for more common setups with all the every day usability benefits EFI offers for about the price of a nice carb and distributor.
Carburetor for the win and there is a way I believe that you can change for specific rpm in the power curve.
NOT WITHOUT ALTERING AF SOMEWHERE ELSE
You have the most informative videos going right now, keep it up!!!
You'll never catch me bitching in the comments.....I'm a young builder and will take every bit of info you want to give me....I love every video you make, keep it up
Fantastic comparison and very well done. Thanks for the charts and graphs to show hard data. I love that you unbiasedly compare stuff with solid results. Keep it up dude!
I ran a tricked out 750 for years before I got sick and tired of always having to Gunk the oscillating idle circuits and switched to a four-barrel TBI. Problem with TBI though is big injectors make more counter EMF which ECMs don't like and they're not as swift for forced induction as MFI. The main advantage of EFI though is it's much easier to tune. Just the mere fact that you can go back to your old map if if your newer one's no better is a game changer. I still have my 750 I can gravity feed should my EFI ever strand me though because I don't think EFI will ever be as bulletproof as carbs are. Even though they both essentially do the same thing, they're as different as apples and oranges.
Throttle body injection for best of both worlds. Charge cooling via fueling at top and set up for TB unit to handle 90% of overall requirement. Set up supplementary fueling at ports with true sequential to make up the other 10% and allow for individual cyl pinpoint A/F ratio. Another option that would be real crazy would be a carb who is jetted at about 80 or 90% required size and port injection in sequential mode for A/F fine tuning.
I like the idea of the individual tuning for safe afr and the efficiency of it. That's gotta help on mpg and keeping the engine happier for a.longer life. All good things for a streetrod/hotrod.
C'MON
The same power,
edti: didn't know Richard was going to tell right after doing the question...
This is really good testing - thanks for posting!
I am confident I can make your carburetor a/f flatter across the rpm band, richening the bottom and leaning out the top (at 14:58). You’re right - the bumps are harder to mitigate, and a lot has to do with the manifold, but you can make it better with a little bit more involved carb tweaks.
Maybe we can work something out?? I’d like to take you up on the challenge...
-Clayton (a.k.a. Dave N. Ebbert’s buddy)
Come tune my carbed LS! i just did the swap and man i tell you its hard because im not use to it but damn im having a good time learning about it!
Thanks for educational video, answers questions about carb vs efi on 5.0 ford. You had mentioned it really is a difference of intakes, and I have seen the light my friend.
Cost is a huge factory. People give me a hard time for having a 418ci LSX with a Carb on my C3. But it works and works well. Plus a huge savings in cost over fuel injection system, a high pressure fuel system and computer tuning. This can be 3x as much as a Holley DP carb and make the same power.
Also The way he set his fuel was studying his smart plugs. They tell you exactly what each cylinder is doing he constantly checked his plugs
Richard, these test are really informative! You're doing test people haven't done or at least recorded. I really appreciate the effort and knowledge you bring
Very informative
Great video. I will be sticking with a Carb.
I would research Ron Krupa, a ford engineer. He was the designer of firestorm spark plugs... He also played a lot with A/F ratios and made a helluva discovery...You might wanna know about.
As far as power output for each AF ratio... That would directly correlate to the timing AND ignition Current and how the comp reacted to it.
More current = much larger initial spark and flame kernel.. This means more burn, hands down..Voltage only effects the gap jump. Check out the Blue Phoenix.
The ecu will not reacted well to this, it will see it as a lean burn...UNTIL you reach a true stoic burn ratio. Which ALL fuel source is consumed and can NO longer support a burn. However a carb isn't effected at all by this. Muhhhaaahh.
Remember that an O2 sensor is just a fancy thermoelectric sensor. Its very similar to to your CTS or IAT.
awesome! so basically old school works great. if it ain't broke don't fix it! love it.
Cant wait for the fuel distribution video when using nitrous with an Stock LS/LT intake manifold
Charge cooling solution is water/methanol injection. I bet that same sequential EFI setup if you added a single meth nozzle a few inches in front of the butterfly plates, and had it spray at a set rpm and up, say 5500, your peak power would add 10 or more. And a bit of water/methanol mix costs pennies compared to the fuel economy losses of the carburetor.
Richard, your LS tech is best in the business. Keep up and let us know more. I would like to see more big inch LS testing, I have 416 short block waiting to get in older car and plan is to keep it looking like carburated but with efi.
Efi is great for precise control. I prefer carbs because of the simplicity and less maintenance cost, as well as lower initial cost.
I remember my 68 327/275 would blow rich black not tons but from a highway run so high rpm prob built in safety. This explains it well and could you imagine if you were using nitrous! Boom 💥
Great video Richard, and yes there is room for both!
Very interesting. Thankyou! No mention of fuel droplet size though... It's not an easy thing to play around with but it can be important.
So here is an experiment. Make up a custom PFI manifold with long horns. On each of these long horns include 4-5 bung locations in which to install injectors Then test each location for power. If the charge cooling hypothesis is correct, then the injector locations near the top of the horns should make the best power.
How about throttle body injection? You wont be able to tune as much as port injection but you would get the cooling effects.
Carby mixture control across a wide rev range at WOT on the dyno, vacuum secondaries should do it, and they're much better with cable kickdown automatic equipped cars. Do some tesing with a 950 CFM Vac Sec', we'll all learn something worthwhile.
While you're at it do it on a single plane to prove it's not airspeed through the boosters that kills the lower rev range power.
I love this guy! Great videos!
Your videos are starting to become really interesting!
There are a lot of fast LS’s that are carded. It’s simple and it has worked for years. Coming from a carded generation and seeing efi come along, a carb is impressive that is doing the same job with so few parts.