@@r6scrubs126 that’s such a shame… this game is a truly beautiful experience but it doesn’t have a very wide target audience: those that like lore and dialogue (the type of person that reads tutorials with a fiery passion, aka me) Do you like dialogue in general? Do you also like solving enigmas? I think these are sort of the "requirements" for liking this game. It really surprises me that you get bored because when playing the game I usually felt very overwhelmed with different branching paths to explore, and every one of them I explored opened up new possibilities again (through mere knowledge) Of course I did at some point I did feel like I was lost and everything was explored although I wasn’t finished but that was very rare - the fix to this might just be searching it up online or, if you’re really into puzzles and mind stuff, continue rewinding your memories (literally IRL not in-game lol) to see if you might have missed something
@@r6scrubs126 I understand Outer Wilds might not be a game for everyone, but are you not at least a bit intrigued to find out what happened in that universe? How far have you gotten? Have you figured out the purpose of the game, or at least what you think the purpose is? If not then I encourage you to at least try to reach that far, if you're still not interested at that point it's fair to say it's not for you.
I know this sounds cheesy AF, but it actually changed the way I view life in general, obviously gaming as well, but it spoke to me on a level no other game has before.
The best videogame subgenre. It's hard to decide whether a game belongs, but imo any puzzle game that makes me go "Wait, I could've done that the ENTIRE TIME?" several times fits. I also think the existence of some puzzles should be hidden right under the player's nose. Here's a list of games I've played that did both: TUNIC Outer Wilds The Witness A Monster's Expedition Leap Year Can of Wormholes Linelith Elechead N Step Steve Parts 1 & 2 Toki Tori 2
Here's a few more that fit in: La Mulana 1 + 2 Environmental Station Alpha Noita Stephen's Sausage Roll (I would say this, alongside Can of Wormholes and Monster's Expedition, are not "metroidbrainias" but rather "sausage-likes")
"Knowledge-based Progression" can be slimmed down to "Knowledge-Progression" or even "KnowProgress", and still convey the meaning well enough. Both this and "Research Action" are solid options to name this genre (while "MetroidBrainia" is so 'un-solid' we'd have to learn Quantum Physics to truly understand what state it's at).
I love the spoiler free real life footage when talking about the witness, where people who KNOW are seeing it instantly and everyone else is just seeing random outdoor shots
@@louis559Do it and you will become one of us. :D The game was designed to make people learn a whole new mental language, experience the joys of epiphany, and _literally change how we view the world_ And it's so freaking silly, I love it
@@Sunderlol A decent chunk of what makes Outerwilds so memorable is its music. How well it was written and arranged, how well it fit the current scene. Just so well done.
When I first discovered TUNIC, I didn't see many people talking about it, or at least not as many people as I think should've been talking about it. I think that, at first, most people will brush it off as just a cute, cozy zelda-like. I, too, brushed it off like this. But the game stuck with me, it gnawed at my mind, and eventually I caved and got it. To this day, nearly a year after I first beat it, it is my favorite game I've ever played. Every moment is shrouded in this immaculate air (air, heir) of mystery, and when you finally unlock that last bit of knowledge that unclouds the mystery, and it feels soooo.... intimate. I can't recommend TUNIC enough to anyone who hasn't played it. And if you do, please go in blind.
Agreed, the balance of the combat, adventure and puzzle aspects is just wonderful. I would also recommend Environmental Station Alpha in the same vein. It is a bit more demanding mechanically but I've found a very similar feeling as I progressed and eventually completed it.
Tunic has become my favorite game of all time recently. I first played it a couple of years ago, but I realized recently that I gushed about it continually. It's such a beautiful combination of Zelda, Dark Souls, Fez, and Outer Wilds.
I sometimes refer to this type of games as "rabbit hole games", because they have these moments of sublime epiphany that recontextualizes everything, kind of like falling into a rabbit hole. Baba is You is a great example for that - the puzzles are fantastic on its own, but the moment you realize how to reach that damn island on the overworld screen you also realize that the whole game is even deeper and more complex than you ever imagined.
That's why this guy turned up in my feed again! I thought it was another lego racing game (that I can't remember the name of) and only watched a couple of minutes.
I've seen people calling those games "knowledge-based" games and I prefer that term. It's not a genre on its own, it has to be paired with other genres. Just like you would say "an action-adventure roguelike game", you could simply say "a knowledge-based 2D platformer". I would define Outer Wilds as a 3D exploration knowledge-based game for instance.
I appreciate how that description is independent of IP, but "knowledge-based" or "knowledge-gated" as a genre label sounds erudite and pretentious, to my ears. It's a great mechanical descriptor, but it doesn't feel catchy enough as a name.
Yep 'knowledge-based' is far better than the 'MetroidBrainia' , though I prefer the term 'Curiosity driven' as you are 'driven' to play and explore due to the curiosity of discovery. That discovery can be of new knowledge, tools, abilities etc. So i feel its more encompassing of the wide range of gaming mechanics it can cover and puts emphasis on the point and experience of playing, that of 'curiosity'. MetroidBrainia has way too much baggage due to being coined off Metroidvania, which itself is an already strained term especially as its derived from a specific game rather than a description of actual gameplay. For example 'Doom Clone' was popular in 1990's but eventually replaced by 'First person shooter' and these days those old style Doom games are known as 'Boomer shooters'.
@@noisecrimenah, when you say "curiosity driven" I think of Skyrim or Elden ring with landmarks that make you wonder what you are gonna find over there. Knowledge-based is pretty good I think
@@kunai9809 While those games can involve curiosity they are neither driven by it, nor required. More so curiosity here refers to more than landmarks, its the curiosity of knowledge, curiosity of experiences, curiosity of puzzles/how things work etc.
I just replayed Obra Dinn for the first time 4 years, and I can safely say that half a decade is about what you need to brain bleach enough of your memory to enjoy a knowledge-based game again. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Outer Wilds, as there has hardly been a day that has gone by where I haven't thought about the game, or listened to the music, or thought about a different game through the lens of Outer Wilds. Playing it for the first time was a truly remarkable experience. Impactful enough that I can safely say that it changed me as a person, or at least my perception and outlook on the world around me.
I had fun replaying it and “role playing” as someone who doesn’t know anything. I’ll only use the logbook and rumors and won’t do something that I already know until I see a clue that hints me to do it. Kind of fun to test the game design that way-like choose different planets to go to as your first flight to see how the mystery unfolds with different pieces of information first. Nothing beats the first blind run, but still possible to enjoy a repeat play through!
@@elytron6758im gonna do that since i wanna play it again now all of a sudden. But i really want to never touch it for like 5-10 years and replay it. Hopefully forgetting most of it lol
"note taking-puzzle games" is a genre term I've been using for a while (whether the notes are kept in game, or have to be done by hand). If you like having a note book full of weird scribbles I'd recommend the Myst series if you haven't played it!
The Witness really only has one puzzle that requires note taking (the colored lights puzzle in the Town). Everything else is pretty forgiving on your brain RAM, though ymmv of course.
I will give it to the fez devs that it is extremely funny that they have been radio silent on the black monolith solution except for one instance like 7 years after the game released when they came out and said that the release date theory was wrong, the most popular and assumed by the fanbase to be the intended solution. Absolute legends lmao Although checking on old forums and seeing statements on people who claim to know the devs it seems pretty likely that the black monolith solution is actually hidden in the images of the soundtrack, as they said something along the lines of "you guys should wait until the soundtrack is out". Maybe the black monolith represents that black part in the spectrogram before they put an image? Who knows Also another thing of note is that in an interview with Phil 10 years after the game came out he said that bruteforcing the puzzle was a much cooler solution than the one he planned. So there's that. Maybe it has something to do with the heartbreak code, which was intended to be datamined, as some sort of symbolism with how game completionism culture and squeezing every drop of content out of games is killing them and the developers I'm so normal about this game trust me guys
If I remember correctly, the solution as the community has discovered it was actually related to the release date of the game, as well as the poetry in the book. *SPOILER* The date of the release gave a code of numbers that one could reorder the pages of the book. Reading them in that order, then (I forget how) translating those letters to numbers, and from that to inputs is the solution as we understand it so far
@@indigonao9864 no that's the theory that was proven to be wrong lmao. The devs already said that planning a game to be released on a specific day is something very hard to do and they just barely made it to the deadline with some insane crunch, so there's no way they made a whole puzzle about it
Dude, I waited until earlier this year, having had fez in my steam library since release, to finally play it and when I finally started looking some stuff up that part kind of pissed me off lol.
@@thaneros fez was made by 3 people: Phil Fish (the main guy in terms of puzzle design and graphics and the person who created the original idea), Renaud Bédard (who did the programming and created trixel engine, the engine the game uses), and Disasterpeace (who made the music and i'm pretty sure the sound effects too? don't quote me on that one)
I was filtered hard by Rain World and stopped after a few hours. I've seen several people who have said that as well, only to have given it a second chance, then "got it" and loved it. I intend to go back to it some day when I can set aside some time.
@@tin_sensei yeah, it was quite the same for me. hated it on my first few hours, friends convinced me to try it again, fell in love with 500 hours now. think the game is just too harsh to immediately understand.
dude, I watch a lot of videos about game design and those knowledge-based progressions and this is by far one of the best. I would love to see more essay style videos.
For anyone else interested in these Metroidbrania or Knowledge-Based Games, I recommend both: - Void Stranger: puzzle focused - Rain World: exploration kinda, it's hard as hell but worth it
As much as I enjoy Rain World, it doesn't really fit the Knowledge-based genre so well since all you're "learning" is how to get where you're going. Unlike Outer Wilds, where you progress by figuring out new rules, Rain World's progression is by moving forward.
@@mothichorror446 I disagree ngl, althought I see what you mean, a lot of the game's content is just locked behind knowledge, knowledge of how to do X movement technique, knowledge of how to use different items, how different animals act etc. At least to me it feels like a knowledge based game for it, but I can understand your point of view.
I wanna add that Void Stranger is specifically Sokoban-focused and quite punishing, which doesn't work for a lot of people who only enjoy games for their next layers. If you like Sokoban, by all means I recommend.
@@mothichorror446I get what you mean, but I disagree. While progression in Rain World isn't *hard* locked behind knowledge, learning how to effectively navigate the world and exploit the weaknesses of predators definitely forwards progression, so I still think it would count
Watched Cdawg’s Void Stranger playthrough. It’s truly something else. I get the idea of Void Stranger being something you have to experience for yourself, but I kinda don’t think it can be recommended like Outer Wilds can be to everyone. Void Stranger is fuckin brutal. Like as incredible as its storytelling is and how inspired its usage of its medium is, sokoban isn’t exactly peak gameplay, and I really don’t know if I could recommend someone 30+ hours of fuckin sokoban, with some of the later puzzles being especially brutal.
Thank you so much for this,i have been searching for YEARS for games similar to outer wilds or the witness and because of this video i can find some examples even in the comments. Great work man,instantly suscribed
yeah i don't get people who call the game "unreplayable", don't get me wrong, it's a completely different experience, but knowing it all heighens the emotions for me.
@@swan-cloud but what do you do, get on and just finish the game? if you just wander around i dont think thats "replaying" . the only way to relive the game is through others reaction and i know we all did it. to me its ironic how much we try to stick to a game that encourages you to let go
Leap Year released like a week before this video and is a pinnacle distillation of a pure metroidbrainia. Zero unlockable items as progression is exclusively knowledge gated. Captures the entire spirit of the genre within an under 2 hour play time.
@@LegallyJusticefied got about as much fun out of it as I did out of mosalina, definitely worth the price. Didn't really feel like going for the speedrun achievements though
It's free on Steam! It's a port of the Atari Lynx version though, rather than the Windows version that most people remember (and that's shown in the video), meaning it runs a little more "smoothly" in real time instead of the quasi-turn-based feel of the Windows version The sequel that got shelved when Atari discontinued the Lynx is also on there for like $2, it's basically just a massive level pack
Does anyone remember Toki Tori 2? That’s gotta be the epitome of MetroidBrainia. You’re limited to just 2 actions, stomping and whistling. It looks like a MetroidVania on first glance, but you never unlock any new abilities. Everything in the game is gated by your awareness of how to use the whistle and stomp to get past the obstacles.
This is one of those videos for me where I think "Wow this video is really well made! This guy must have a lot of subs." It turns out you don't, but you definetly deserve them!
This is literally my favorite game genre and I've played hundreds of games. I've always just called them knowledge based games. There's a great video that superdude made on them
All of my favourite games in one place! I'm now playing through Chants of Senaar looking for another dopamine-filled brain-a-thon. I was hoping I'd find something I haven't already played in this video, but the only one was Chip's Challenge, and I think I'm alright skipping that. Great video!
Chips Challenge is a puzzle game. It's really awesome. It was one of the few games I had on Windows 98 back in the day and we played so much of it. It doesn't have the flair of modern games but it's still good.
I played and loved both Fez and Tunic. I'm waiting for my Switch copy of Outer Wilds to arrive in late August and just wishlisted Animal Well. Thank you, I really liked this video.
Another example of a, Mertoidbrainia I guess, that I will take any opportunity to bring up is 'Toki Tori 2+'. Is cool, play it. A more classic styled puzzle Metroidvania is 'Isles of Sea and Sky' which came out recently. I also agree with the sentiment towards puzzles outside of a game, it even opens up the possibility of a puzzle being impossible to solve the intended way like say a website goes down that has an important key to solve it. I think I managed to 'solve' the word block puzzle. I say 'solve' because well I'd figured that I had to line them up to make a word and somehow managed to luck into finding the right one. So, take that as you will. Great video btw.
One of my favorite game series that has these knowledge gates is the Myst series. All the puzzles in these games require knowledge that can be acquired by exploring the game world, observing it and through interaction with objects. There are no keys and no items you can pick up. If you understand the mechanics of the game's universe you can breeze through them. And there is so much environmental storytelling in the games apart from the puzzles.
The beginning of this video convinced me to get Fez (and I already want Animal Well), but the ending makes me think that maybe I don't. I'm right there with you that these super-esoteric mandatory community/look-up solutions go against the philosophy of these kinds of games, and take some of that experience from the player. I think the way you describe The Witness as "if you were locked in a room with no internet, you could probably 100% it eventually" should be somewhere in the design philosophy, especially for single-player puzzle games. The solution should be in the game, not in the spectrograph of the soundtrack.
Totally agree. Specialized knowledge in coding and programming will never be an appealing aspect of these games for me. I don’t like ARGs because they usually have stuff like this.
Not strictly this genre, but Baba is you (made by one of the creators of Noita) blew my mind how many times it can recontextualize itself and give you the there is no spoon -moment. It may look like sokoban, but the solutions rely mostly on understanding and not much on long, tedious sequences, so you probably solve many levels while not actually playing the game, but just thinking about it while doing something else.
Great video describing my favorite type of game in recent years. As much as it would be amazing to have a game like this that reaches that level of replayability, that larger than life "a-ha!" moment is what cements these games in my mind, and makes the whole experience worthwhile and worth the price of admission. Also I appreciate the discussion of the big community driven endgame meta puzzles that a lot of these games have and how frustrating it is that only a select few people will ever experience properly. Reaching the final secret in Tunic after so much work only to be met with an ARG that I'm too stupid to understand was a bit of a letdown, but I do understand the value and excitement it can hold for others.
Loved the video and Metriodbraina is probably just about my favorite type of game, so I have to say I agree about the it sucks to end up late to a community puzzle but I will say that the Animal well community has done a pretty good job about letting you still solve the puzzles only giving you the info you absolutely need and not just saying here's the solution. the Mural puzzle in particular someone made a site that has all of the pieces but allows you to figure out how it actually goes together without spoiling it.
Who is this man? Such a well spoken, intelligent, and thoughtful creator, with so many great points, and he ONLY HAS 13K SUBS? Thats a crime. At least I feel like I'm getting in on the bottom floor though.
I’ll be honest, I second I saw chip’s challenge I immoderately paused the video to see if it was available on steam and went and played the first 7 levels. So most nostalgia and I thank you for it and reminding of it!
I stumbled upon a similar term, invented by game developer Tom Francis, who made two videos about it: Information Game. He however defined it a bit differently by saying an information game is about "understanding the story" (and the world) to progress in a game, while a metroidbrainia is about understanding your abilities and by thus progress through the game. Really can recommend especially the later video "Redefing Information Games, based on their cleverest trick" if you haven't seen it yet.
Loved the video! Outer Wilds is my favourite game of all time.. (and I'm normally not one for picking favourites) Obra Dinn was my biggest surprise regarding a game I played last year. Keep it up Tin Sensei! 🎉
I agree that Outer wild is basically the definitive "metroidbrainia". I almost prefer the term "wildslike" for this genre since many of the games are so far removed from traditional metroidvanias.
I personaly have heard that Outer Wild would more likely be a "KnowledgeVania", the name is pretty self-explainatory, it's a metroivania where you are not block because of lacking powers but because of lacking knowledge. I like it more
I think the issue with Outer Wilds being called a metroidbrania is most of what you can see you can get to right at the beginning even with no knowledge. You're knowledge doesn't reveal the map more so what you know about the world. I feel like a core part of the Metroidvania games is unlocking new areas of the world to find and explore. Sure that exists in Outer Wilds to a degree but then there are games like Obra Dinn that shares a lot of its game dna with OW which I would put in the same genre, but no one would argue Obra Dinn is a Metroidvania or even close to it. I like the term "wildslike" for games where you progress with knowledge and in general a lot of these games overlap well with the metroidvania genre.
@@camdenwyeth316it’s a story puzzle game so if you love exploration and adventure and digging for lore in this game this game makes reading lore the way to gain knowledge to advance further
Nice video. I've always just considered this genre the "Wildslike" akin to roguelike's etymology. Another term I like is to call them "epiphonic" games since knowledge of mechanics drives progression, and thus it's all geared around making players have groundbreaking epiphanies that change their view of the entire game.
Epiphonic is a really cool term, I might have to start saying that. Personally I like the term Tunicwilds, à la Metroidvania: making a portmanteau out of the two most notable examples of a genre.
@@MythicalRedFox Fez is a much older and arguably more impactful game. Fezlike also rolls off the tongue? Dunno. Seems odd to name it after games that came out about a decade later.
@@jeremyblack1929 Yeah, naming a genre after examples that came out so much later feels almost disrespectful to the original. It'd be really weird to call Rogue an Isaaclike, Spirelike, or Morialike. (And Tunicwilds does the exact opposite of rolling off the tongue.)
I'm working on a mash up of sokoban and tactical turn based gameplay that I feel fits right into this "genre". I completely agree with how you conceptualized the games that are "metroidbrainia first" and having low replay value, vs "platformer first" and "metroidbrainia second". After watching this, I at least feel like I'm on the right path of design, in this regard anyway! Tactical puzzling with a decent story first, metroidbrainia second. Keep up the great work! Subscribed. I will have to look into your videos on Japan too, but I will say that I am definitely interested in more videos around this topic/pattern of content, you nailed it.
This video is so good, hypes the games up without spoiling anything important. I hope this makes people try out Tunic and the other classics in this subgenre :D
I didn't even noticed when the video ended, really had me interested and listening to everything you were saying, I already knew what metroidbrania was. Amazing video!
I'm built different, I've played Outer Wilds twice. I just liked it so much that I went around and discovered everything again. I've beaten it several times as well, just repeating the ending. I am very passionate about Outer Wilds.
These are my favorite types of games, rain world, noita, outer wilds, the witness, it goes on and on! i have nothing insightful to say but great video and thank you for making it
These are "Knowledge Games". At least, that's the name I've most consistently seen and used. Outer Wilds, Animal Well, FEZ, TUNIC, Void Stranger, Manifold Garden, Toki Tori 2, Kirby and the Amazing Mirror (somewhat), Baba is You, Rain World, etc. All games where the player is gated mainly by how familiar they are with what they need to do. Where the "sequence" only exists for someone playing the game for the first time, and the best secrets are under your nose the whole time.
This is indeed my favorite genre, nice to have a name for it. You make a good point, I enjoyed solving all the secrets in Animal Well on my own, but was frustrated by the puzzle that required I tip toe around spoilers to find those pieces so I could put them together. The "final" puzzle of the game I think is more understandable in terms of collaboration, not in that it needs it, but because the pieces of the puzzle are not designed to be found, but rather, to be uncovered over a large amount of time by a large amount of people. It's one in which the difficulty is so high that you ought to collaborate, not one which mandates it in the design.
Great video! Love this genre and will definitely be checking out these games. Grew up playing Chip’s Challenge on the family PC, so was hooked when I saw that right out of the gate
I watched this video in hopes of finding something else in the likes of Tunic, Outer Wilds, The Witness, Animal Well and FEZ... only to find out that those were the only mentioned games in the video. 😭 Awesome video, btw! Love it!
@@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it... So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here: Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments. Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing. Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find. It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things. Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too. Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next. Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go. 10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
@@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it... So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here: Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments. Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing. Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find. It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things. Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too. Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next. Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go. 10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it... So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here: Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments. Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing. Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find. It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things. Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too. Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next. Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go. 10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
Fantastic video. Kind of surprised there hasn't been another high quality video on this genre before. It's the favorite genre of a lot of game design channels. Outer Wilds is of course the GOAT and all of the games mentioned are great. I would add Riven as the progenitor of the genre. It's too bad there are so few games in the genre.
Thanks for explaining so well my gripes with a game requiring community work. I've said this several times, I fell for the Animal Well hype and regretted paying the release price for it as it seems to be based on getting to enjoy the full game from level 1 puzzles to the level 4 ones, which realistically very few people will, in one hand because as you said it's unreasonable to expect a community that has already collectively solved a puzzle to do it again, and in the other hand because most people are not that hardcore and will just get to the credits and at most will explore a bit of the level 2 puzzles before getting bored or distracted by the next new shiny thing or, like in my case, deciding it's too much work and too much repetition of subpar movement mechanics. I had this experience with Animal Well shortly after having played Tunic for the first time, and it felt like a bit of a deja vu. I had to retread a lot of Tunic because of the game giving so little guidance, but at least Tunic had the option to turn on infinite health and stamina, so I just went and 100% it in a quasi-comfortable way. Then with Animal Well when I saw how much of the game I'd have to retread, plus having to do deathless runs and speedrunning challenges and no way of making it all more comfortable, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, despite being so much of a completionist. Maybe in the future I'll go back to it, but right now I'm a bit annoyed at the game for expecting so much of the player and not giving any warning about having such high expectations. In fact, I believe these kind of games, what we can call metroidbrainias, should be more open and transparent about what kind of challenge they impose. While it's true, as you said, that metroidbrainias are best enjoyed going in blind, some can benefit a lot from at least letting you know if the tools required to solve the puzzle are contained within the game or require external tools, because I'm an adult and I don't have time to waste searching for clues that later I'll find out in an online guide that weren't there in the first place. I prefer games respect my immersion and don't break it by requiring me to use an unprovided barcode reader or to check the source code of a website or to make a spectrogram of an audio file, but if they really want to do that, at least be upfront about it and let me take that information into consideration before I decide to pay for a game. Hopefully more people will voice concerns and demands like mine and the industry will react appropriately. All in all, great video.
Thisx1000. I loved the early-to-middle bits of TUNIC and ANIMAL WELL and INSCRYPTION--thrilling moments of discovery! seeing old places/decorations in new ways!--but was really disappointed to see how much investment and/or outside knowledge/ARG was needed to "complete" the games. Left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Deathless runs are not my idea of fun, ANIMAL WELL. And I shouldn't have to know the author's entire back catalog (INSCRYPTION...!), to find extra story or secrets; that's unfair. And TUNIC, that rotating puzzle in the water room?? It's annoying i know HOW to solve it, but executing it is eye-rollingly difficult, so I'm out. Anyway, I enjoyed playing all 3 of the abovementioned games, they left me feeling :\ about them. For me, TOKI TORI 2+ was best--you could do everything without leaving the game. I wish there was more TOKI TORI2+
Great video! Outer Wilds, Tunic and Fez are among my favorite gaming memories. They are masterpieces, all with exceptional soundtracks. One unique thing you didn't mention is the way some even hide lore and information in a cryptic language which you get to decipher in the end. And boy was it a fun, rewarding challenge in Fez and Tunic. I want more games like this. Metroidbrainia is the best genre for me. Maybe I should start developing one.
A game I see no one mention in this genre is Heaven's Vault. It was amazing. You go diacovering a forgotten language to discover the past of the world. Id say its a story game with the metroidbrania aspect being in the language but its AMAZING everyone in this genre needs to try it. Also, there are so many ways to reach the many endings this has and things you can miss and still finish the game Not to mention it has replayability and I still think people Haven't solved everything about the game
Watched the video until you encouraged me to pause, beat the true ending of Tunic, and came back. Thank you so much for encouraging me to go in blind. One of the greatest experiences I've had in gaming.
I 100% agree about the community puzzles & ARG stuff. They can be fun, they have been done well in the past and I'm sure there will be more in the future. But it's starting to feel a little bit rote at this point, i guess? Like the final (the ACTUAL final) puzzle of Tunic is a community ARG and when i got to that point i was incredibly disappointed. It really felt like that developers wanted to "heighten" the puzzle solving stuff and the only way they could think to go bigger was to do this, even though none of the puzzles up to that point required that level of dedication or labor from the community. Also mad props to the dedication to spoiler-free. These are some of my favorite games of all time, and it always breaks my heart a little to see other youtubers just flagrantly expose all the fun stuff and ruin the games for their audiences.
Personally I think calling the final final puzzle an ARG is overstating it. Once you're there you're done anyway; all that's left I would categorize as easter eggs rather than puzzles.
I think the way Tunic did it was great. It's 100% obvious that any further puzzles from that point onwards (I agree though that there aren't actually any more puzzles, just easter eggs) use information from outside the game itself. Because last time I checked there is no web browser in the game. It's a very clear way of doing it. Animal Well could take some notes.
I'm gonna have to disagree with Tunic's ARG puzzle. Its clearly an optional thing not at all tied to the main game itself with how few links it does have to the base game. Tunic is very good at presenting the mountain door as the 'final puzzle' for any individual playing the game with how the very first mechanic ties into framing it. Compare that to Animal well or Noita that go into ARG territory without much rhyme or reason. Those games have no framing around the puzzles to focus players onto what they can do or what they should rely on a community for instead its just scattered everywhere and you're expected to just figure it out.
This is my favourite type of game genre ❤ as you said, it allows for the best, most emotionally involved and most rewarding first gameplay by far. Thanks for the video!
Tunic was REAL nice. The story and lore were snoozers coming from Hollow Knight, but solving the mountain door and deciphering the language was some of the most fun I've had in games in a while. And yes, I deciphered it myself. Took about 5 hours or so, lol. I will, however, forever hold up that the softest feather can suck my ass.
did you know there's a second, tonal language that the faeries speak and that plays in other places? the sound engineer for the game made a detailed twitter thread about it a while back.
I agree with everything here, especially that the haiku is garbage. I solved every puzzle in the game completely blind except for that one where I gave up after 2 days and cheated. I even completed the game a second time in NG+, theorising that I started out "soft" and needed to raise my stats to 11 or something. Terrible "puzzle".
This was a great recommendation by the YT algorithm, thanks for the great video! This is indeed a pretty amazing kind of game and makes sense that there's not a lot of them out there since it's not the easiest type of experience to craft. Also not that easy to get people to play! how do you hook someone on something you can't talk anything about or else you'll ruin it for them? haha. The way you went over the listed games without giving out too much was well done in that sense.
This is an awesome video (I might be biased because this is probably my favorite genre, and you just told me it had a real name!!!) but I really like your content in general - You've just gained one more hardcore fan, keep pushing Tin Sensei!!
I really enjoyed your video on this topic, this is a genre I really love and didn’t know there was a name for besides their original titles, I.e. metroidvania etc. great choices in music as well, and some lovely b-roll. Great quality on your voice over, I feel like there were no particularly slow parts, you didn’t talk over yourself, just a really well put together video! Amazing work my friend 🔥
Big thumb up to the last part. I also want to mention that people who appears on online discussion about these topics is already likely to be a member of some game community. There are players who are introvert or just less interested in socializing with gaming, and their opinions are less likely to be heard. You can finish many souls-likes alone even if their communities are huge and sometimes annoying, but it gets harder if you have less experience with similar games. My expectation on any game is, to lower the threshold of both the community attendance and previous gaming experience, and metroidbrainia is the genre getting closer to it. To be carved into history, a game must build its own history within. The external heirlooms of previous games and corresponding communities are shortcuts to commercial success. But where is yourself, developer? (my English is janky, sorry for that)
Great video! I absolutely adore these games that fall into this strange genre. Thank you for showing things in a way that avoids spoilers for the most part... I have not gotten around to half of these so far. PS) Something about your voice reminds me of Clint from LGR! I am betting you'd do an impression of him so well that nobody could tell the difference.
I call these "knowledge-based games" - games which require the player to gain certain knowledge to complete; however, these are (mostly) unreplayable, since you go through them once and get all the knowledge needed to complete the game. Sure, there may be some other elements you need to find/unlock to get to the game's end, but the main element - the knowledge - has already been gained on the first playthrough. I think that to be a "metroidbrainia" you also need to be... a traditional metroidvania. Here: metroidbrainias are games which not only require the player to gain certain knowledge to progress, but also heavily require other types of collectibles - abilities, items, etc. - in order to complete. The one example I can think of is Animal Well, where, while you *do* need knowledge to progress, you also need items to use your knowledge on.
Animal well died for me the moment I learned that some puzzles couldn't be solved inside the game. Not having a way to know which was which I eventually basically followed a guide the rest of the way. I think I had 2 eggs left at that point. I'm really glad you raised that point. Now that I know to expect it going forward I think similar games might will leave a less bitter taste. I actually just 100% Tunic (with some hints from reddit, I'm only human) and was excited by the more obscure late game stuff.
Yeah, Animal Well would have been fine if it was somehow clear which puzzles need to be ignored. All the eggs were legit, and many of the bunnies were not. But there is no way to tell ahead of time whether you're stuck at a dead end or you just need to keep pushing.
Here from /r/mealtimevideos. Great job explaining what makes these games so exciting, without spoiling any of the fun reveals. Looking forward to watching more!
AHH I had been hearing so much about Tunic. I listened an interview with Tunic's designer on TGDRT... and now with your intro, I definitely want to see what it is about. I will be coming back. But I need to go play that on games pass. :)
Wow I've been going back to that bunny mural for weeks, figuring there's just something hidden in plain sight that I've missed. Thank you for releasing me from my torment. Agreed that this is exactly the kind of info I would like signalled/spoiled - that a presented puzzle is not solvable within just the game itself. Love the term Metroidbrainia by the way. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but it does capture a feeling I've felt from all the games that you've mentioned, that isn't covered by the more obvious over-genre: Zelda-like, Metroidvania, platformer, puzzle game, etc, etc
@@matijamaksan4344 "metroidvania" is derived from other game's name, like "Doom clone" or "Roguelike", which requires someone to have some knowledge on games, while "Exploration platformer" is self-descriptive and independant.
Really liked the video, love this kind of games, and I still haven't played half of the ones mentioned, so thanks for keeping it spoiler free. I played FEZ a couple summers ago, even though I knew about it since it came out. I deliberately stayed spoiler free, and I didn't look up any guides either, because I didn't want the game's age to spoil my fun. Instead I got my notepad out and figured out all the alphabets and what everything on the walls everywhere meant and that made it really enjoyable. Apart from the black monolith, everything else, everything, can be solved just with knowledge provided in the game, even if you're in a room, offline, with nothing else than the game. Even things that guides say need external knowledge, they just missed it in the game. I finally did start looking online when all I had left was the monolith puzzle and the weird one with the cubes, and even if I just got a simple hint for it, I wish I wouldn't because I would have solved the cube one eventually by myself, I was just tired and knew that I would have to look one up in the end and wasn't sure which one it was. My point is, that you can still enjoy an old game with lots of resources online if you abstain from searching anything, because that's why you're playing it after all and you didn't choose a simple platformer instead 😊
Fantastic video! I've now played through Outer Wilds, twice. The second time was in VR, so perhaps that reelevated the experience. But I feel like the second time wasn't a lesser experience. The imagery, the sounds, and story were all very good on the replay. I realize the sense of true discovery that is experienced on the first playthrough cannot be repeated but to use this single measure as the standard for all future playthroughs is a bit reductive. Anyway, thanks for the video and I hope we get more games like these!
Tunic was the best. So many, many hours and squiggles in notebook pages spent on hunting down the good ending. I did need some help from the community on some of the more obscure parts, like the translation / deciphring of the language. Even so, it was an amazing experience. Great video!
Outer wilds legitimately changed the whole way I view video games. Truly incredible experience
It truly changed the way I look at game dev
I wish I could experience this but every time I try play it I get bored within an hour or so and give up
@@r6scrubs126 that’s such a shame… this game is a truly beautiful experience but it doesn’t have a very wide target audience: those that like lore and dialogue (the type of person that reads tutorials with a fiery passion, aka me)
Do you like dialogue in general? Do you also like solving enigmas? I think these are sort of the "requirements" for liking this game. It really surprises me that you get bored because when playing the game I usually felt very overwhelmed with different branching paths to explore, and every one of them I explored opened up new possibilities again (through mere knowledge)
Of course I did at some point I did feel like I was lost and everything was explored although I wasn’t finished but that was very rare - the fix to this might just be searching it up online or, if you’re really into puzzles and mind stuff, continue rewinding your memories (literally IRL not in-game lol) to see if you might have missed something
@@r6scrubs126 I understand Outer Wilds might not be a game for everyone, but are you not at least a bit intrigued to find out what happened in that universe? How far have you gotten? Have you figured out the purpose of the game, or at least what you think the purpose is? If not then I encourage you to at least try to reach that far, if you're still not interested at that point it's fair to say it's not for you.
I know this sounds cheesy AF, but it actually changed the way I view life in general, obviously gaming as well, but it spoke to me on a level no other game has before.
The best videogame subgenre. It's hard to decide whether a game belongs, but imo any puzzle game that makes me go "Wait, I could've done that the ENTIRE TIME?" several times fits. I also think the existence of some puzzles should be hidden right under the player's nose. Here's a list of games I've played that did both:
TUNIC
Outer Wilds
The Witness
A Monster's Expedition
Leap Year
Can of Wormholes
Linelith
Elechead
N Step Steve Parts 1 & 2
Toki Tori 2
Aliensrock the goat!!
Aliensrock, the certified expert on the topic.
Can't forget Papa Louie 2
Myhouse.wad
Environmental Station Alpha
Here's a few more that fit in:
La Mulana 1 + 2
Environmental Station Alpha
Noita
Stephen's Sausage Roll (I would say this, alongside Can of Wormholes and Monster's Expedition, are not "metroidbrainias" but rather "sausage-likes")
Knowledge-based progression
'Research Action'
@@KillahMate wow that's a fantastic name. I like your play on "Search Action" given that that is the alternate name for Metroidvanias
@@KillahMate Search Action HD (Hidden Depth) or RHAD for short
"Knowledge-based Progression" can be slimmed down to "Knowledge-Progression" or even "KnowProgress", and still convey the meaning well enough. Both this and "Research Action" are solid options to name this genre (while "MetroidBrainia" is so 'un-solid' we'd have to learn Quantum Physics to truly understand what state it's at).
isn't 'knowledge-based unlock' the actual name? I hear industry people use that term all the time
I love the spoiler free real life footage when talking about the witness, where people who KNOW are seeing it instantly and everyone else is just seeing random outdoor shots
I was using my finger on the screen T_T
I really thought it was just randomly outdoor shots
This more than anything I've heard about it makes me want to play The Witness
get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head get out of my head
@@louis559Do it and you will become one of us. :D The game was designed to make people learn a whole new mental language, experience the joys of epiphany, and _literally change how we view the world_
And it's so freaking silly, I love it
Outer Wilds soundrack made me cry instantly. Good job on not spoiling expirience of mentioned titles.
I cri everytim :(
Same, I don't know why bu it gets me everytime. Maybe because it's the most memorable gaming experience I've ever had? I will never forget this game
@@Sunderlol A decent chunk of what makes Outerwilds so memorable is its music. How well it was written and arranged, how well it fit the current scene. Just so well done.
When I first discovered TUNIC, I didn't see many people talking about it, or at least not as many people as I think should've been talking about it. I think that, at first, most people will brush it off as just a cute, cozy zelda-like. I, too, brushed it off like this. But the game stuck with me, it gnawed at my mind, and eventually I caved and got it. To this day, nearly a year after I first beat it, it is my favorite game I've ever played. Every moment is shrouded in this immaculate air (air, heir) of mystery, and when you finally unlock that last bit of knowledge that unclouds the mystery, and it feels soooo.... intimate. I can't recommend TUNIC enough to anyone who hasn't played it. And if you do, please go in blind.
was so hype for this game but it kicked my ass. maybe i should try it again
Agreed, the balance of the combat, adventure and puzzle aspects is just wonderful. I would also recommend Environmental Station Alpha in the same vein. It is a bit more demanding mechanically but I've found a very similar feeling as I progressed and eventually completed it.
Tunic has become my favorite game of all time recently. I first played it a couple of years ago, but I realized recently that I gushed about it continually.
It's such a beautiful combination of Zelda, Dark Souls, Fez, and Outer Wilds.
Do it. @@Kontrazt1990
I teach the language. ;3
I sometimes refer to this type of games as "rabbit hole games", because they have these moments of sublime epiphany that recontextualizes everything, kind of like falling into a rabbit hole. Baba is You is a great example for that - the puzzles are fantastic on its own, but the moment you realize how to reach that damn island on the overworld screen you also realize that the whole game is even deeper and more complex than you ever imagined.
It has some kind of meta-puzzle?!?
When I heard the Outer Wilds Soundtrack kick in, I knew this was gonna be a really good vid
The smile on my face when it came on.
I love it when a game is so amazing that any reference to it makes you go crazy lmaoo. 😂
Found you through the Lego Racers video & now I'm enjoying everything you have on offer ;)
There's a Lego Racers video?!
Finally, a RUclips channel for me.
same
Hoping he does more of this kind of gaming content!
That's why this guy turned up in my feed again! I thought it was another lego racing game (that I can't remember the name of) and only watched a couple of minutes.
I've seen people calling those games "knowledge-based" games and I prefer that term. It's not a genre on its own, it has to be paired with other genres. Just like you would say "an action-adventure roguelike game", you could simply say "a knowledge-based 2D platformer".
I would define Outer Wilds as a 3D exploration knowledge-based game for instance.
I appreciate how that description is independent of IP, but "knowledge-based" or "knowledge-gated" as a genre label sounds erudite and pretentious, to my ears. It's a great mechanical descriptor, but it doesn't feel catchy enough as a name.
Yep 'knowledge-based' is far better than the 'MetroidBrainia' , though I prefer the term 'Curiosity driven' as you are 'driven' to play and explore due to the curiosity of discovery. That discovery can be of new knowledge, tools, abilities etc. So i feel its more encompassing of the wide range of gaming mechanics it can cover and puts emphasis on the point and experience of playing, that of 'curiosity'.
MetroidBrainia has way too much baggage due to being coined off Metroidvania, which itself is an already strained term especially as its derived from a specific game rather than a description of actual gameplay. For example 'Doom Clone' was popular in 1990's but eventually replaced by 'First person shooter' and these days those old style Doom games are known as 'Boomer shooters'.
@@noisecrimenah, when you say "curiosity driven" I think of Skyrim or Elden ring with landmarks that make you wonder what you are gonna find over there.
Knowledge-based is pretty good I think
I like calling them Brainia games because I feel the Metroid part is unnecessary.
@@kunai9809 While those games can involve curiosity they are neither driven by it, nor required. More so curiosity here refers to more than landmarks, its the curiosity of knowledge, curiosity of experiences, curiosity of puzzles/how things work etc.
I just replayed Obra Dinn for the first time 4 years, and I can safely say that half a decade is about what you need to brain bleach enough of your memory to enjoy a knowledge-based game again.
Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Outer Wilds, as there has hardly been a day that has gone by where I haven't thought about the game, or listened to the music, or thought about a different game through the lens of Outer Wilds. Playing it for the first time was a truly remarkable experience. Impactful enough that I can safely say that it changed me as a person, or at least my perception and outlook on the world around me.
I had fun replaying it and “role playing” as someone who doesn’t know anything. I’ll only use the logbook and rumors and won’t do something that I already know until I see a clue that hints me to do it. Kind of fun to test the game design that way-like choose different planets to go to as your first flight to see how the mystery unfolds with different pieces of information first. Nothing beats the first blind run, but still possible to enjoy a repeat play through!
@@elytron6758im gonna do that since i wanna play it again now all of a sudden. But i really want to never touch it for like 5-10 years and replay it. Hopefully forgetting most of it lol
There's something so cool about having a notebook full of weird scribbles trying to figure out stuff in games like The Witness and FEZ
"note taking-puzzle games" is a genre term I've been using for a while (whether the notes are kept in game, or have to be done by hand).
If you like having a note book full of weird scribbles I'd recommend the Myst series if you haven't played it!
The Witness really only has one puzzle that requires note taking (the colored lights puzzle in the Town). Everything else is pretty forgiving on your brain RAM, though ymmv of course.
@@CheesecakeMilitia what about all the notes in the briefcases
Yeah! I loved writing down the various flute songs on the walls in animal well so I could try em in different areas
I will give it to the fez devs that it is extremely funny that they have been radio silent on the black monolith solution except for one instance like 7 years after the game released when they came out and said that the release date theory was wrong, the most popular and assumed by the fanbase to be the intended solution. Absolute legends lmao
Although checking on old forums and seeing statements on people who claim to know the devs it seems pretty likely that the black monolith solution is actually hidden in the images of the soundtrack, as they said something along the lines of "you guys should wait until the soundtrack is out". Maybe the black monolith represents that black part in the spectrogram before they put an image? Who knows
Also another thing of note is that in an interview with Phil 10 years after the game came out he said that bruteforcing the puzzle was a much cooler solution than the one he planned. So there's that. Maybe it has something to do with the heartbreak code, which was intended to be datamined, as some sort of symbolism with how game completionism culture and squeezing every drop of content out of games is killing them and the developers
I'm so normal about this game trust me guys
If I remember correctly, the solution as the community has discovered it was actually related to the release date of the game, as well as the poetry in the book.
*SPOILER*
The date of the release gave a code of numbers that one could reorder the pages of the book. Reading them in that order, then (I forget how) translating those letters to numbers, and from that to inputs is the solution as we understand it so far
@@indigonao9864 no that's the theory that was proven to be wrong lmao. The devs already said that planning a game to be released on a specific day is something very hard to do and they just barely made it to the deadline with some insane crunch, so there's no way they made a whole puzzle about it
Dude, I waited until earlier this year, having had fez in my steam library since release, to finally play it and when I finally started looking some stuff up that part kind of pissed me off lol.
Fez was made by one guy
@@thaneros fez was made by 3 people: Phil Fish (the main guy in terms of puzzle design and graphics and the person who created the original idea), Renaud Bédard (who did the programming and created trixel engine, the engine the game uses), and Disasterpeace (who made the music and i'm pretty sure the sound effects too? don't quote me on that one)
Still best game in this genre is Rain World. You have unlocked everything (except 1 thing) from the start. Can go anywhere. Only knowledge limits you.
yes
I like hk more tho
I was filtered hard by Rain World and stopped after a few hours. I've seen several people who have said that as well, only to have given it a second chance, then "got it" and loved it. I intend to go back to it some day when I can set aside some time.
Because Outer Wilds is a metroidbrania, then it has to be my favorite. Only the lack of knowledge is in your way. Rain World sounds fun I might try it
@@tin_sensei yeah, it was quite the same for me. hated it on my first few hours, friends convinced me to try it again, fell in love with 500 hours now. think the game is just too harsh to immediately understand.
Fantastic job with this video.
Easy sub.
You will be at 10k quick with quality like this
dude, I watch a lot of videos about game design and those knowledge-based progressions and this is by far one of the best. I would love to see more essay style videos.
For anyone else interested in these Metroidbrania or Knowledge-Based Games, I recommend both:
- Void Stranger: puzzle focused
- Rain World: exploration kinda, it's hard as hell but worth it
As much as I enjoy Rain World, it doesn't really fit the Knowledge-based genre so well since all you're "learning" is how to get where you're going. Unlike Outer Wilds, where you progress by figuring out new rules, Rain World's progression is by moving forward.
@@mothichorror446 I disagree ngl, althought I see what you mean, a lot of the game's content is just locked behind knowledge, knowledge of how to do X movement technique, knowledge of how to use different items, how different animals act etc.
At least to me it feels like a knowledge based game for it, but I can understand your point of view.
I wanna add that Void Stranger is specifically Sokoban-focused and quite punishing, which doesn't work for a lot of people who only enjoy games for their next layers. If you like Sokoban, by all means I recommend.
@@mothichorror446I get what you mean, but I disagree. While progression in Rain World isn't *hard* locked behind knowledge, learning how to effectively navigate the world and exploit the weaknesses of predators definitely forwards progression, so I still think it would count
Watched Cdawg’s Void Stranger playthrough. It’s truly something else. I get the idea of Void Stranger being something you have to experience for yourself, but I kinda don’t think it can be recommended like Outer Wilds can be to everyone. Void Stranger is fuckin brutal. Like as incredible as its storytelling is and how inspired its usage of its medium is, sokoban isn’t exactly peak gameplay, and I really don’t know if I could recommend someone 30+ hours of fuckin sokoban, with some of the later puzzles being especially brutal.
I would not be surprised when your channel blows up!!! I can’t wait to see you grow
Thank you so much for this,i have been searching for YEARS for games similar to outer wilds or the witness and because of this video i can find some examples even in the comments. Great work man,instantly suscribed
Hey, that's me at 0:03 :D
I'm so pumped more people are talking about these sorts of games!
I still revisit Outer Wilds sometimes... Just for sightseeing, the music, and visiting the Sun station...
I really can't go back to the game. I want to and I *need* to play the DLC but just can't do it. Too many emotions.
@@thaneros the DLC is amazing, and quite long as well. But yes, there will be feels
@@thanerosdude the dlc is absolute perfection imo, it’s literally them saying “we can make outer wilds again if we wanted to.”
yeah i don't get people who call the game "unreplayable", don't get me wrong, it's a completely different experience, but knowing it all heighens the emotions for me.
@@swan-cloud but what do you do, get on and just finish the game? if you just wander around i dont think thats "replaying" . the only way to relive the game is through others reaction and i know we all did it. to me its ironic how much we try to stick to a game that encourages you to let go
Leap Year released like a week before this video and is a pinnacle distillation of a pure metroidbrainia. Zero unlockable items as progression is exclusively knowledge gated. Captures the entire spirit of the genre within an under 2 hour play time.
yoo was waiting for someone to mention leap year
adding it to the list, thank you
Bought it based off this comment alone
@@lukechase6346 Nice! Let me know how what you think of it. It's a very cool game
@@LegallyJusticefied got about as much fun out of it as I did out of mosalina, definitely worth the price. Didn't really feel like going for the speedrun achievements though
Noita would fit this description in the roquelike category
Yes!!
I'm deep in the Noita knowledge trenches as we speak, so that's one of the first games which came to mind.
Great video, thank you Tin and the algorithm!
Holy shit Chip's Challenge was one of my favorite games back in the day. Nice to see other people still remember it.
Thank you for the video.
It's free on Steam! It's a port of the Atari Lynx version though, rather than the Windows version that most people remember (and that's shown in the video), meaning it runs a little more "smoothly" in real time instead of the quasi-turn-based feel of the Windows version
The sequel that got shelved when Atari discontinued the Lynx is also on there for like $2, it's basically just a massive level pack
@@LonkinPork Thanks for telling me! Off to Steam to grab them now.
Does anyone remember Toki Tori 2? That’s gotta be the epitome of MetroidBrainia. You’re limited to just 2 actions, stomping and whistling. It looks like a MetroidVania on first glance, but you never unlock any new abilities. Everything in the game is gated by your awareness of how to use the whistle and stomp to get past the obstacles.
YES! I just made a comment about that game, glad I'm not the only one who played it
This game is THE metroidbrainia
YES!!! I need more people to play toki tori 2 because it is SUCH a good game.
Was this the original Metroidbrainia? I remember someone talking about this as its selling point back when it first came out.
@@ZerogunRivalenah I would argue there’s older games like “la mulana” that fall into this category
This is one of those videos for me where I think "Wow this video is really well made! This guy must have a lot of subs." It turns out you don't, but you definetly deserve them!
This is literally my favorite game genre and I've played hundreds of games. I've always just called them knowledge based games. There's a great video that superdude made on them
All of my favourite games in one place! I'm now playing through Chants of Senaar looking for another dopamine-filled brain-a-thon. I was hoping I'd find something I haven't already played in this video, but the only one was Chip's Challenge, and I think I'm alright skipping that. Great video!
The La Mulana games are pretty good metroidbrania games. Just be warned that they ask a lot from the player in terms of problem solving and patience.
It's not quite the same, but I would recommend giving Heaven's Vault a look
You should give Void Stranger a shot, it’s absolutely one of the best in this genre and criminally underrated
Chips Challenge is a puzzle game. It's really awesome. It was one of the few games I had on Windows 98 back in the day and we played so much of it. It doesn't have the flair of modern games but it's still good.
I played and loved both Fez and Tunic. I'm waiting for my Switch copy of Outer Wilds to arrive in late August and just wishlisted Animal Well. Thank you, I really liked this video.
Another example of a, Mertoidbrainia I guess, that I will take any opportunity to bring up is 'Toki Tori 2+'. Is cool, play it.
A more classic styled puzzle Metroidvania is 'Isles of Sea and Sky' which came out recently.
I also agree with the sentiment towards puzzles outside of a game, it even opens up the possibility of a puzzle being impossible to solve the intended way like say a website goes down that has an important key to solve it.
I think I managed to 'solve' the word block puzzle. I say 'solve' because well I'd figured that I had to line them up to make a word and somehow managed to luck into finding the right one.
So, take that as you will.
Great video btw.
Most underrated RUclipsr I have seen in recent times. Loving the video essays, keep it up my guy!
One of my favorite game series that has these knowledge gates is the Myst series. All the puzzles in these games require knowledge that can be acquired by exploring the game world, observing it and through interaction with objects. There are no keys and no items you can pick up.
If you understand the mechanics of the game's universe you can breeze through them. And there is so much environmental storytelling in the games apart from the puzzles.
The beginning of this video convinced me to get Fez (and I already want Animal Well), but the ending makes me think that maybe I don't. I'm right there with you that these super-esoteric mandatory community/look-up solutions go against the philosophy of these kinds of games, and take some of that experience from the player. I think the way you describe The Witness as "if you were locked in a room with no internet, you could probably 100% it eventually" should be somewhere in the design philosophy, especially for single-player puzzle games. The solution should be in the game, not in the spectrograph of the soundtrack.
Totally agree. Specialized knowledge in coding and programming will never be an appealing aspect of these games for me. I don’t like ARGs because they usually have stuff like this.
That depends if it’s a easter egg secret or the game itself, for fez I don’t the game bored me before the end, need to try it again.
Not strictly this genre, but Baba is you (made by one of the creators of Noita) blew my mind how many times it can recontextualize itself and give you the there is no spoon -moment. It may look like sokoban, but the solutions rely mostly on understanding and not much on long, tedious sequences, so you probably solve many levels while not actually playing the game, but just thinking about it while doing something else.
Great video describing my favorite type of game in recent years. As much as it would be amazing to have a game like this that reaches that level of replayability, that larger than life "a-ha!" moment is what cements these games in my mind, and makes the whole experience worthwhile and worth the price of admission. Also I appreciate the discussion of the big community driven endgame meta puzzles that a lot of these games have and how frustrating it is that only a select few people will ever experience properly. Reaching the final secret in Tunic after so much work only to be met with an ARG that I'm too stupid to understand was a bit of a letdown, but I do understand the value and excitement it can hold for others.
Loved the video and Metriodbraina is probably just about my favorite type of game, so I have to say I agree about the it sucks to end up late to a community puzzle but I will say that the Animal well community has done a pretty good job about letting you still solve the puzzles only giving you the info you absolutely need and not just saying here's the solution. the Mural puzzle in particular someone made a site that has all of the pieces but allows you to figure out how it actually goes together without spoiling it.
Dude Chips Challenge! Thats a classic, one of my first gaming memories.
Bummer!
Closest to a formal definition of a genre I've seen yet. Including counterexamples is key. We should start using it - I know I will anyway!
Who is this man? Such a well spoken, intelligent, and thoughtful creator, with so many great points, and he ONLY HAS 13K SUBS? Thats a crime. At least I feel like I'm getting in on the bottom floor though.
I was pulled the thumbnail and I’m barely a few minutes into your video….take my Like already!!
I’ll be honest, I second I saw chip’s challenge I immoderately paused the video to see if it was available on steam and went and played the first 7 levels. So most nostalgia and I thank you for it and reminding of it!
Great video, big fan of this "genre"
Where Void Stranger?
I stumbled upon a similar term, invented by game developer Tom Francis, who made two videos about it: Information Game. He however defined it a bit differently by saying an information game is about "understanding the story" (and the world) to progress in a game, while a metroidbrainia is about understanding your abilities and by thus progress through the game. Really can recommend especially the later video "Redefing Information Games, based on their cleverest trick" if you haven't seen it yet.
Loved the video! Outer Wilds is my favourite game of all time.. (and I'm normally not one for picking favourites)
Obra Dinn was my biggest surprise regarding a game I played last year.
Keep it up Tin Sensei! 🎉
Same, ill have to try Obra Dinn
Amazing video!
I recently saw a tweet that made me think of this topic.
This type of game is particularly magic.
I agree that Outer wild is basically the definitive "metroidbrainia". I almost prefer the term "wildslike" for this genre since many of the games are so far removed from traditional metroidvanias.
Eh, this is my favorite genre of game and for some reason I just couldn't stand outer wilds
I personaly have heard that Outer Wild would more likely be a "KnowledgeVania", the name is pretty self-explainatory, it's a metroivania where you are not block because of lacking powers but because of lacking knowledge. I like it more
I think the issue with Outer Wilds being called a metroidbrania is most of what you can see you can get to right at the beginning even with no knowledge. You're knowledge doesn't reveal the map more so what you know about the world. I feel like a core part of the Metroidvania games is unlocking new areas of the world to find and explore. Sure that exists in Outer Wilds to a degree but then there are games like Obra Dinn that shares a lot of its game dna with OW which I would put in the same genre, but no one would argue Obra Dinn is a Metroidvania or even close to it. I like the term "wildslike" for games where you progress with knowledge and in general a lot of these games overlap well with the metroidvania genre.
@@camdenwyeth316it’s a story puzzle game so if you love exploration and adventure and digging for lore in this game this game makes reading lore the way to gain knowledge to advance further
Why Outer Wilds? FEZ popularized this. Or do we still like slighting Phil Fish.
I see Antichamber in thumbnail, I click. Simple as that.
One of my favorite games which is also among the most misunderstood games
Same. Such an underrated gem.
Antichamber appreciation club here ^^^
Game is ahead of it time , I wish the dev makes a sequel or just remake it with more mechanics and better art style
Thanks, was trying to remember the name of it. Was thinking it was Manifold Garden as I haven't played that either.
Nice video. I've always just considered this genre the "Wildslike" akin to roguelike's etymology. Another term I like is to call them "epiphonic" games since knowledge of mechanics drives progression, and thus it's all geared around making players have groundbreaking epiphanies that change their view of the entire game.
Epiphonic is a really cool term, I might have to start saying that.
Personally I like the term Tunicwilds, à la Metroidvania: making a portmanteau out of the two most notable examples of a genre.
@@MythicalRedFox Fez is a much older and arguably more impactful game. Fezlike also rolls off the tongue? Dunno. Seems odd to name it after games that came out about a decade later.
@@jeremyblack1929 Yeah, naming a genre after examples that came out so much later feels almost disrespectful to the original. It'd be really weird to call Rogue an Isaaclike, Spirelike, or Morialike. (And Tunicwilds does the exact opposite of rolling off the tongue.)
I'm working on a mash up of sokoban and tactical turn based gameplay that I feel fits right into this "genre".
I completely agree with how you conceptualized the games that are "metroidbrainia first" and having low replay value, vs "platformer first" and "metroidbrainia second".
After watching this, I at least feel like I'm on the right path of design, in this regard anyway! Tactical puzzling with a decent story first, metroidbrainia second.
Keep up the great work! Subscribed. I will have to look into your videos on Japan too, but I will say that I am definitely interested in more videos around this topic/pattern of content, you nailed it.
This video is so good, hypes the games up without spoiling anything important. I hope this makes people try out Tunic and the other classics in this subgenre :D
I didn't even noticed when the video ended, really had me interested and listening to everything you were saying, I already knew what metroidbrania was. Amazing video!
I'm built different, I've played Outer Wilds twice. I just liked it so much that I went around and discovered everything again. I've beaten it several times as well, just repeating the ending. I am very passionate about Outer Wilds.
I could never put it into words... but yes... THIS is my genre. Great video!
These are my favorite types of games, rain world, noita, outer wilds, the witness, it goes on and on! i have nothing insightful to say but great video and thank you for making it
A criminally under rated Video again. Keep up the good work!
THE PIXEL SUNGLASSES MEME WAS A FEZ REFERENCE THIS WHOLE TIME???????
These are "Knowledge Games". At least, that's the name I've most consistently seen and used.
Outer Wilds, Animal Well, FEZ, TUNIC, Void Stranger, Manifold Garden, Toki Tori 2, Kirby and the Amazing Mirror (somewhat), Baba is You, Rain World, etc.
All games where the player is gated mainly by how familiar they are with what they need to do. Where the "sequence" only exists for someone playing the game for the first time, and the best secrets are under your nose the whole time.
This is indeed my favorite genre, nice to have a name for it. You make a good point, I enjoyed solving all the secrets in Animal Well on my own, but was frustrated by the puzzle that required I tip toe around spoilers to find those pieces so I could put them together. The "final" puzzle of the game I think is more understandable in terms of collaboration, not in that it needs it, but because the pieces of the puzzle are not designed to be found, but rather, to be uncovered over a large amount of time by a large amount of people. It's one in which the difficulty is so high that you ought to collaborate, not one which mandates it in the design.
There’s this game I really like called Taiji. It’s basically The Witness, but with tile puzzles instead of line puzzles. Definitely recommend.
oooOOOOOOoooo looks neat! A game I recently played and love that is like The Witness with word puzzles is Lingo.
Great video! Love this genre and will definitely be checking out these games. Grew up playing Chip’s Challenge on the family PC, so was hooked when I saw that right out of the gate
I watched this video in hopes of finding something else in the likes of Tunic, Outer Wilds, The Witness, Animal Well and FEZ... only to find out that those were the only mentioned games in the video. 😭
Awesome video, btw! Love it!
Check the comments, there's a lot of good looking recommendations, I'm scouring through them.
Outer Wilds is my fav game of all time. I just downloaded Animal Well and Tunic how do they compare?
@@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it...
So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here:
Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments.
Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing.
Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find.
It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things.
Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too.
Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next.
Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go.
10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
@@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it...
So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here:
Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments.
Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing.
Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find.
It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things.
Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too.
Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next.
Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go.
10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
@billballinger5622 I swear I had a big comment here days ago and I don't know if it got shadowdeleted or if my internet acted up and never actually posted it...
So, I'm gonna try to sum up whatever I said before in here:
Animal Well: It starts out as a cute retro-pixel metroidvania, and definitely feels like one and plays like one and up until you beat it and see the credits roll, that's what it is... However, that's when *the other game* starts. Without spoiling, let's just say that you should try to complete all achievements and go for 100% completion. At first it might not look like much, but boy, you're in for a treat. And because you already beat it, it won't feel like a metroidvania, more like a 2D open world filled to the brim and then some with secrets and mechanics you didn't even know the game had. And it's up to you, your curiosity, your exploration, trial and error, and thirst of "hmm, I wonder if this would work" and "a-ha!" moments.
Fantastic game, will surprise you a lot more than you think, it has tons of puzzles, and mega puzzles, and meta puzzles, and what not. Really, it's amazing.
Tunic: this game at first feels and looks like a 2D Zelda copycat, as if is was a cheap knock-off. However, you'll find how wrong that idea is very soon; you'll start seeing that there's some hidden things and paths you didn't think were there at first. Some of them you'll find on your own by being curious and clever, and some of them the game itself will force you to get to. Then, you'll also learn that more than a Zelda, you'll realize it feels more like a souls-lite (a few similar mechanics, more friendly tho) and a very big open world with a lot of alt paths that will make you think in clever ways in order to find.
It also has a ton of hidden mechanics, ands stuff in its world, that if you don't understand you'll just ignore, but when you actually understand, you'll find that the world suddenly became bigger than you thought, and that there's a ton of new stuff to try out. In other words, new knowledge gets you to do and get to different things.
Also, the way the game teaches most of this stuff to you, is by collecting pages of a NES style game manual, in which the game teaches you how to play it, only it's written in a foreign language, and its up to you to interpret the images, and diagrams that are on it, and of course, filled to the top with secrets too.
Both games are fantastic, both games you could play more than once, but both games will feel in a very unique way the very first time you play them, as you'll truly feel like exploring an alien world that you're trying to understand how it works in order to exploit it to get to where you want to explore next.
Oh and, now that I said 'exploit', both games not only encourage you to explore (and reward you accordingly) the world, but its mechanics too. Some areas, monsters, puzzles, or mechanics, you might come up with a very clever idea on how to exploit those, and you'll even might feel like "you're cheating" your way out of the design... Well, both games are actually designed and tailored around that idea, and some of the deepest, darkest, and obscure puzzles are actually design with those exploits in mind, and will definitely test you to see how far you're willing to go.
10/10 experience on both, don't miss out, they are definitely something special.
I left the video (for now) at the spoiler warning, but I just wanted to let you know that I think this is really great stuff and I'm excited for more!
So many good references! My personal favorites were Swampy Boots and "My goodness, what an idea. Why didn't I think of that? Hammocks!"
Fantastic video. Kind of surprised there hasn't been another high quality video on this genre before. It's the favorite genre of a lot of game design channels. Outer Wilds is of course the GOAT and all of the games mentioned are great. I would add Riven as the progenitor of the genre. It's too bad there are so few games in the genre.
Thanks for explaining so well my gripes with a game requiring community work. I've said this several times, I fell for the Animal Well hype and regretted paying the release price for it as it seems to be based on getting to enjoy the full game from level 1 puzzles to the level 4 ones, which realistically very few people will, in one hand because as you said it's unreasonable to expect a community that has already collectively solved a puzzle to do it again, and in the other hand because most people are not that hardcore and will just get to the credits and at most will explore a bit of the level 2 puzzles before getting bored or distracted by the next new shiny thing or, like in my case, deciding it's too much work and too much repetition of subpar movement mechanics.
I had this experience with Animal Well shortly after having played Tunic for the first time, and it felt like a bit of a deja vu. I had to retread a lot of Tunic because of the game giving so little guidance, but at least Tunic had the option to turn on infinite health and stamina, so I just went and 100% it in a quasi-comfortable way. Then with Animal Well when I saw how much of the game I'd have to retread, plus having to do deathless runs and speedrunning challenges and no way of making it all more comfortable, I just couldn't bring myself to do it, despite being so much of a completionist. Maybe in the future I'll go back to it, but right now I'm a bit annoyed at the game for expecting so much of the player and not giving any warning about having such high expectations.
In fact, I believe these kind of games, what we can call metroidbrainias, should be more open and transparent about what kind of challenge they impose. While it's true, as you said, that metroidbrainias are best enjoyed going in blind, some can benefit a lot from at least letting you know if the tools required to solve the puzzle are contained within the game or require external tools, because I'm an adult and I don't have time to waste searching for clues that later I'll find out in an online guide that weren't there in the first place. I prefer games respect my immersion and don't break it by requiring me to use an unprovided barcode reader or to check the source code of a website or to make a spectrogram of an audio file, but if they really want to do that, at least be upfront about it and let me take that information into consideration before I decide to pay for a game. Hopefully more people will voice concerns and demands like mine and the industry will react appropriately.
All in all, great video.
Thisx1000. I loved the early-to-middle bits of TUNIC and ANIMAL WELL and INSCRYPTION--thrilling moments of discovery! seeing old places/decorations in new ways!--but was really disappointed to see how much investment and/or outside knowledge/ARG was needed to "complete" the games. Left me with a bad taste in my mouth. Deathless runs are not my idea of fun, ANIMAL WELL. And I shouldn't have to know the author's entire back catalog (INSCRYPTION...!), to find extra story or secrets; that's unfair. And TUNIC, that rotating puzzle in the water room?? It's annoying i know HOW to solve it, but executing it is eye-rollingly difficult, so I'm out.
Anyway, I enjoyed playing all 3 of the abovementioned games, they left me feeling :\ about them.
For me, TOKI TORI 2+ was best--you could do everything without leaving the game. I wish there was more TOKI TORI2+
@@dwilliams21in tunic you know about the hourglass right
@@karlhendrikse yup!
Great video! Outer Wilds, Tunic and Fez are among my favorite gaming memories. They are masterpieces, all with exceptional soundtracks. One unique thing you didn't mention is the way some even hide lore and information in a cryptic language which you get to decipher in the end. And boy was it a fun, rewarding challenge in Fez and Tunic. I want more games like this. Metroidbrainia is the best genre for me. Maybe I should start developing one.
A game I see no one mention in this genre is Heaven's Vault. It was amazing. You go diacovering a forgotten language to discover the past of the world. Id say its a story game with the metroidbrania aspect being in the language but its AMAZING everyone in this genre needs to try it.
Also, there are so many ways to reach the many endings this has and things you can miss and still finish the game
Not to mention it has replayability and I still think people Haven't solved everything about the game
Watched the video until you encouraged me to pause, beat the true ending of Tunic, and came back. Thank you so much for encouraging me to go in blind. One of the greatest experiences I've had in gaming.
Wholesome, sir 🌟 🎉
I came into this not knowing what that even was, then as soon as I heard the outerwilds music in the background I got it
"Ooh yes I love this genre so much, maybe I'll find more games like it through this video!!"
"Nevermind, I already played them all"
I 100% agree about the community puzzles & ARG stuff. They can be fun, they have been done well in the past and I'm sure there will be more in the future. But it's starting to feel a little bit rote at this point, i guess? Like the final (the ACTUAL final) puzzle of Tunic is a community ARG and when i got to that point i was incredibly disappointed. It really felt like that developers wanted to "heighten" the puzzle solving stuff and the only way they could think to go bigger was to do this, even though none of the puzzles up to that point required that level of dedication or labor from the community.
Also mad props to the dedication to spoiler-free. These are some of my favorite games of all time, and it always breaks my heart a little to see other youtubers just flagrantly expose all the fun stuff and ruin the games for their audiences.
Personally I think calling the final final puzzle an ARG is overstating it. Once you're there you're done anyway; all that's left I would categorize as easter eggs rather than puzzles.
I think the way Tunic did it was great. It's 100% obvious that any further puzzles from that point onwards (I agree though that there aren't actually any more puzzles, just easter eggs) use information from outside the game itself. Because last time I checked there is no web browser in the game. It's a very clear way of doing it. Animal Well could take some notes.
I'm gonna have to disagree with Tunic's ARG puzzle. Its clearly an optional thing not at all tied to the main game itself with how few links it does have to the base game.
Tunic is very good at presenting the mountain door as the 'final puzzle' for any individual playing the game with how the very first mechanic ties into framing it.
Compare that to Animal well or Noita that go into ARG territory without much rhyme or reason.
Those games have no framing around the puzzles to focus players onto what they can do or what they should rely on a community for instead its just scattered everywhere and you're expected to just figure it out.
This is my favourite type of game genre ❤ as you said, it allows for the best, most emotionally involved and most rewarding first gameplay by far. Thanks for the video!
Tunic was REAL nice. The story and lore were snoozers coming from Hollow Knight, but solving the mountain door and deciphering the language was some of the most fun I've had in games in a while. And yes, I deciphered it myself. Took about 5 hours or so, lol.
I will, however, forever hold up that the softest feather can suck my ass.
did you know there's a second, tonal language that the faeries speak and that plays in other places? the sound engineer for the game made a detailed twitter thread about it a while back.
I agree with everything here, especially that the haiku is garbage. I solved every puzzle in the game completely blind except for that one where I gave up after 2 days and cheated. I even completed the game a second time in NG+, theorising that I started out "soft" and needed to raise my stats to 11 or something. Terrible "puzzle".
This was a great recommendation by the YT algorithm, thanks for the great video! This is indeed a pretty amazing kind of game and makes sense that there's not a lot of them out there since it's not the easiest type of experience to craft. Also not that easy to get people to play! how do you hook someone on something you can't talk anything about or else you'll ruin it for them? haha. The way you went over the listed games without giving out too much was well done in that sense.
I am commenting this so that this video gets boosted in the algorithm so more people see it and make games like these
This is an awesome video (I might be biased because this is probably my favorite genre, and you just told me it had a real name!!!) but I really like your content in general - You've just gained one more hardcore fan, keep pushing Tin Sensei!!
Chip's Challenge deep cut, subscribed
I really enjoyed your video on this topic, this is a genre I really love and didn’t know there was a name for besides their original titles, I.e. metroidvania etc. great choices in music as well, and some lovely b-roll. Great quality on your voice over, I feel like there were no particularly slow parts, you didn’t talk over yourself, just a really well put together video! Amazing work my friend 🔥
Big thumb up to the last part. I also want to mention that people who appears on online discussion about these topics is already likely to be a member of some game community. There are players who are introvert or just less interested in socializing with gaming, and their opinions are less likely to be heard. You can finish many souls-likes alone even if their communities are huge and sometimes annoying, but it gets harder if you have less experience with similar games. My expectation on any game is, to lower the threshold of both the community attendance and previous gaming experience, and metroidbrainia is the genre getting closer to it. To be carved into history, a game must build its own history within. The external heirlooms of previous games and corresponding communities are shortcuts to commercial success. But where is yourself, developer? (my English is janky, sorry for that)
Great video! I absolutely adore these games that fall into this strange genre. Thank you for showing things in a way that avoids spoilers for the most part... I have not gotten around to half of these so far.
PS) Something about your voice reminds me of Clint from LGR! I am betting you'd do an impression of him so well that nobody could tell the difference.
I'm still trying to decide if Chants of Sennaar fits into this genre or not
Let me know, i downloaded that but havent played yet
Ooooh! These are exactly the kind of recommendations I was trying to explain to a friend last night!
I call these "knowledge-based games" - games which require the player to gain certain knowledge to complete; however, these are (mostly) unreplayable, since you go through them once and get all the knowledge needed to complete the game. Sure, there may be some other elements you need to find/unlock to get to the game's end, but the main element - the knowledge - has already been gained on the first playthrough.
I think that to be a "metroidbrainia" you also need to be... a traditional metroidvania. Here: metroidbrainias are games which not only require the player to gain certain knowledge to progress, but also heavily require other types of collectibles - abilities, items, etc. - in order to complete. The one example I can think of is Animal Well, where, while you *do* need knowledge to progress, you also need items to use your knowledge on.
Extremely underrated channel, thanks for the well made video
Animal well died for me the moment I learned that some puzzles couldn't be solved inside the game. Not having a way to know which was which I eventually basically followed a guide the rest of the way. I think I had 2 eggs left at that point. I'm really glad you raised that point. Now that I know to expect it going forward I think similar games might will leave a less bitter taste. I actually just 100% Tunic (with some hints from reddit, I'm only human) and was excited by the more obscure late game stuff.
Yeah, Animal Well would have been fine if it was somehow clear which puzzles need to be ignored. All the eggs were legit, and many of the bunnies were not. But there is no way to tell ahead of time whether you're stuck at a dead end or you just need to keep pushing.
Yeah, Chip's Challenge! 🤩💖 Great video by the way. Thank you for diving into this topic! 😊
I call them puzzlevanias
I'm not sure it's an accurate descriptor, but it sounds rad as hell
Thanks for recognizing Animal Well is actually hard. Man, I fail at these platforming sections. Wanted to love it so bad
Here from /r/mealtimevideos. Great job explaining what makes these games so exciting, without spoiling any of the fun reveals. Looking forward to watching more!
AHH I had been hearing so much about Tunic. I listened an interview with Tunic's designer on TGDRT... and now with your intro, I definitely want to see what it is about. I will be coming back. But I need to go play that on games pass. :)
Chip's Challenge! That's what it was called!
Omg I played chips challenge on windows 3.1 omggg
Wow I've been going back to that bunny mural for weeks, figuring there's just something hidden in plain sight that I've missed. Thank you for releasing me from my torment. Agreed that this is exactly the kind of info I would like signalled/spoiled - that a presented puzzle is not solvable within just the game itself.
Love the term Metroidbrainia by the way. Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but it does capture a feeling I've felt from all the games that you've mentioned, that isn't covered by the more obvious over-genre: Zelda-like, Metroidvania, platformer, puzzle game, etc, etc
It has one. In Japan. It's "Tansaku" or "Exploration platformer", but nobody uses it.
Isn't that just metroidvania? Metroidbrainia gotta have knowledge unlocks somewhere in a name.
@@matijamaksan4344 "metroidvania" is derived from other game's name, like "Doom clone" or "Roguelike", which requires someone to have some knowledge on games, while "Exploration platformer" is self-descriptive and independant.
Really liked the video, love this kind of games, and I still haven't played half of the ones mentioned, so thanks for keeping it spoiler free.
I played FEZ a couple summers ago, even though I knew about it since it came out. I deliberately stayed spoiler free, and I didn't look up any guides either, because I didn't want the game's age to spoil my fun. Instead I got my notepad out and figured out all the alphabets and what everything on the walls everywhere meant and that made it really enjoyable. Apart from the black monolith, everything else, everything, can be solved just with knowledge provided in the game, even if you're in a room, offline, with nothing else than the game. Even things that guides say need external knowledge, they just missed it in the game.
I finally did start looking online when all I had left was the monolith puzzle and the weird one with the cubes, and even if I just got a simple hint for it, I wish I wouldn't because I would have solved the cube one eventually by myself, I was just tired and knew that I would have to look one up in the end and wasn't sure which one it was.
My point is, that you can still enjoy an old game with lots of resources online if you abstain from searching anything, because that's why you're playing it after all and you didn't choose a simple platformer instead 😊
I was playing Riven this week and thought "this feels like a Metroidvania"
Now I know why.
Its worth it? I wanted to play it but its waaay to expensive, if it has something related to outer wilds and the witness i might get it
You can also get the original 1997 game, its way cheaper
Fantastic video! I've now played through Outer Wilds, twice. The second time was in VR, so perhaps that reelevated the experience. But I feel like the second time wasn't a lesser experience. The imagery, the sounds, and story were all very good on the replay. I realize the sense of true discovery that is experienced on the first playthrough cannot be repeated but to use this single measure as the standard for all future playthroughs is a bit reductive. Anyway, thanks for the video and I hope we get more games like these!
Great video
I actually thought of Noita!
Tunic was the best. So many, many hours and squiggles in notebook pages spent on hunting down the good ending. I did need some help from the community on some of the more obscure parts, like the translation / deciphring of the language.
Even so, it was an amazing experience.
Great video!
that simpsons clip for the obra dinn is too perfect