This era is so fascinating to me, how a group like en vogue didn’t achieve commercial success coming out of a very succesful era! I loved riddle and it’s endless remixes, the album and single artwork shot by the amazing Markus Klinko, the endless unreleased material from this era, and most of all, how only one single was commercially released…
Just revisited “Beat of Love” and that song is a bop. I don’t know if it would’ve worked as a single, but it’s really good a weaving the classical with a hip hop beat, kinda has a hip hop lover from Funky Divas vibe. I like it a lot now. It’s on repeat currently. Lol
On the subject of I Love You More, I would have included it in the middle of the Love Suite between Love U Crazay and Sad But True. That way it tells the story from beginning to end - infatuation (Love U Crazay), being deeply in love (I Love You More), falling out of love (Sad But True), anger (Love Won't Take Me Out) to acceptance (Whatever Will Be Will Be).
That's a really interesting perspective! Including "I Love You More" in the Love Suite definitely would have created even more of a cohesive story-line for the album's love theme. Like you said, it would have given the listener a clearer understanding of the stages of a romantic relationship, starting with intense infatuation to the acceptance of whatever the future holds.
I loved this album. If only Elektra would’ve supported it. I’m sure the record label knew the concept all along. Because I remember reading it was supposed to be called something old, something new, something borrowed and something cool. Which would’ve allowed them to have the classical samples and new/current music at the time. Riddle shouldn’t have been the lead single. If they would’ve done Love Suite concept as the lead off it could’ve been dope or Love Crazay as the lead single with a really cool video. It would’ve generated more buzz. Work it out, Sad but true, Love won’t take me out, and those dogs had the potential to be singles. But I think Elektra wanted to drop them any way. Has any of the girls ever talked about being dropped and no support for the album? Would love to hear their thoughts.
It's interesting to think about how things could have been different if Elektra had supported the album more. It's a shame that more of the songs weren't given the chance to be potential singles. As for the girls' thoughts on the lack of support for the album, it's definitely worth looking into and seeing if they've ever discussed it. If we ever get to interview them, that's something we'll definitely ask them about.
My position has evolved so much! I didn’t love MT when it came out. I grew up playing or listening to those classical pieces & I found the MT lyrics were weak & the production cheapened the original music & En Vogue. But I revisited it a couple of months ago & fell in love with a lot of it (while *still* hating the production 😂). I think the reason “Sad but true” came alive in Rotterdam was not the group configuration but the presence of an actual piano & full orchestra without any of FMOB’s cheap keyboards & drumbeats. That’s what fills it out. In fact there is *no percussion* in Rotterdam, letting the song swell & breathe. All EV’s music comes alive with live instruments - especially larger orchestras (even Ladies of Soul) & that’s what MT needed, I think, to match the ambition & source material of the project. Because the arrangements were cool & the girls killed it vocally. 🔥 Imo it’s a far more interesting album than EV3 - tied at #3 with “Electric cafe” (musically) among their albums. 💿 The sheer number of En Vogue songs that could have been so much more beautiful with better production (eg “A thousand times”) is almost criminal. Still, not sure this would ever have been a big commercial success for a number of reasons (many that you mentioned, which better production wouldn’t have solved).
The album was very under appreciated the album was a head if its time, those dogs would have been better with mainstream rapper’s something they has not done until having Snoop dog. Love you crazy, Latin soul and Love wont take me out could have been singles also.
Loved this podcast. MT was the first EV album I ever bought and to this day it remains my favourite. I loved the classical music concept and vocally, I literally can't think of any other body of work that even comes close to the harmonies on this album. However I do understand the criticisms of this album - it really wasn't radio-friendly enough compared to everything else that was out at the time. Whilst I do like Riddle (especially the Stargate remix that was released in Europe) I don't think it was the best way to lead off the album campaign. They either needed a killer tune like Don't Mess With My Man (totally agree that that was the EV hit that never was) or they needed to commit to pushing the Masterpiece Theatre concept by releasing Love U Crazay so that the general public can get a better taste of what the album is about. And you guys are totally right - a Nutcracker themed video would have been perfect, and like I said would have been a better representation of the album. My favourites from the album include No No No (Can't Come Back), Work It Out, Falling In Love, Whatever Will Be Will Be and Love Won't Take Me Out - perhaps their single greatest vocal performance IMO. As for individual performances, whilst Terry remains my favourite overall, I do feel like Max had the best vocal moments on this album despite having the least leads.
It's awesome to hear that it's your favorite En Vogue album, and I agree that the classical music concept was really unique. The harmonies are definitely next-level. Love U Crazay could have showcased the album's concept a bit better, I agree. And I totally agree that Max's vocals were really standout on this album. I love love love this album!
Another great episode! I 💌 the song "love you more" & I think it would have been worth the investment to have it on the album.. It would have been a great follow up to Riddle. I love 99% of the Album. I always thought the Latin Soul song was cheezy AF...but perhaps with a remix it could have been better. I rate the album #4 after BTS, FD & EV3. I think it flopped bc they continued to be out of touch w/what the masses wanted which was the original 4 doing that cutting edge glam stuff. I remember being so disappointed when I went to Tower Records to buy this cd & saw they were still a trio. Also I too thought Maxine was replaced! I said to the cashier, "who dis woman?" She just shrugged her shoulders...I think she was not even featuring EV like that. Sadly they were forgotten. I'm still holding my breath for them to put out a dance album like they originally were going to do. They could cover a lot of genres but just need to keep it upbeat. And for god's sake let Rhona do the belting of the notes. We need that back in the mix.
Totally agree with you on "I Love You More", it's such a great song and would have fit perfectly on the album. And yeah, that Latin Soul song was hella cheesy, but maybe a remix could have made it better. I rank this as my third favourite En Vogue album after the first two.
I love masterpiece theater this album was just criminally underrated , the album was just genius in my opinion ❤. Don’t get me wrong I feel like if dawn was on This album it Would have been so different in a good way . But I will rate this Album as 10 tbh .
'Those Dogs' is such a great song. If En Vogue would have put DMX on there instead of those no name rappers I believe it would have been a big hit. 'Those Dogs' and 'Love U Crazy' are two of my favs on the album and they both have no name rappers, which En Vogue is notorious for utilizing. 'Lies' is the only song of theirs with a no name rapper that was a big hit. 'Hip Hop Lover' is another great song in their discography with a no name rapper. En Vogue loves the no names. 😂
Dawn said that back in the late 2000s, the possibility of working with Darkchild was on the table. But, the other girls wanted to stick with F&M...per usual. That's why in the previous episode, I said in my submitted letter that Dawn, Max, and Rhona were the only ones RECEPTIVE to working with different producers, etc.
I agree with the ageism peice. At the time "Riddle" debuted, both Cindy and Max were 38, and Terry was 36. Especially when newcomers Amanda and Rhona joined, both of whom were 27 at the time. 1961: Cindy 1962: Max 1963: Terry 1965: Dawn 1974: Amanda 1976: Rhona Rhona is the youngest, not Dawn lol
@@RomeloE95 someone yesterday was saying she confirmed it was 1968 in another of those (many) interviews! 😂 And that was after I’d narrowed it down to ‘65 or ‘66 based on another interview & her time on R&B Divas. Wikipedia also has “1966 of 1968”. 🥴
I said it on the craze when the album dropped that Riddle was not the single to release 1st. Number One Man should have been the 1st single as Neo-Soul was huge in that time and that was a newer sound for EV. Riddle is cute and a bop, but it was not fitting into radio R&B at the moment; at least not in NYC. That was way before streaming became a thing, so we bought a cd and relied on radio and video. IMO; Number One Man, Luv U Crazy, No No No were the singles! Btw Rolling stone or Billboard ( I can’t remember which one) voted MPT the most underrated “masterpiece” that no one bought that year. Musicians love it, but it was not commercial enough
I tried to give MT a chance but it just didn't do it for me. I prefer EV3 over this album. I do wish they worked other producers & writers for it. I also agree if Dawn was there I believe she would've had strong opinions against the direction of the album. The group has said before that since she was the youngest & was really into hip hop music, that she would keep them fresh. It's crazy y'all mentioned how Don't Mess With My Man would've been a good single for MT cause I also have wondered if Lucy Pearl's album was actually Masterpiece Theater instead lol. Like if Raphael Saadiq, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, and EV4 worked on Masterpiece Theater. It would've also given a chance for EV to write. It's sad that EV doesn't get acknowledged as much as their successors who've agreed that EV was their inspiration. I agree they fumbled the bag with not having a proper reunion. The EV5 reunion could've been the start to resurgence to their career. Imagine this: 1. A full documentary on their Sylvia Rhone reunion showing behind the scenes footage of the rehearsals, sound check for the show, interviews from everyone involved, and the full performance. 2. EV5 on the Masked Singer. 3. EV5 doing that NYE's perfomance. 4. EV5 on the Mixtape Tour. 5. EV5 BTS and FD anniversary performances 6. A first ever EV5 album. 7. EV5 verzuz with BoyzIIMen (if they brought Mike for this one it'd really be great). 8. EV5 receiving a Hollywood Star. 9. And there's many other things I think they'd receive as EV5 over EVNow. I feel like they really won't get the recognition they truly deserve unless Dawn & Maxine are back. EVNow are still killing it but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that EV5 will surprise with a successful reunion....
This era is so fascinating to me, how a group like en vogue didn’t achieve commercial success coming out of a very succesful era! I loved riddle and it’s endless remixes, the album and single artwork shot by the amazing Markus Klinko, the endless unreleased material from this era, and most of all, how only one single was commercially released…
This album is a vocal masterpiece. It's a shame it didn't get the recognition it deserves.
Just revisited “Beat of Love” and that song is a bop. I don’t know if it would’ve worked as a single, but it’s really good a weaving the classical with a hip hop beat, kinda has a hip hop lover from Funky Divas vibe. I like it a lot now. It’s on repeat currently. Lol
On the subject of I Love You More, I would have included it in the middle of the Love Suite between Love U Crazay and Sad But True. That way it tells the story from beginning to end - infatuation (Love U Crazay), being deeply in love (I Love You More), falling out of love (Sad But True), anger (Love Won't Take Me Out) to acceptance (Whatever Will Be Will Be).
That's a really interesting perspective! Including "I Love You More" in the Love Suite definitely would have created even more of a cohesive story-line for the album's love theme. Like you said, it would have given the listener a clearer understanding of the stages of a romantic relationship, starting with intense infatuation to the acceptance of whatever the future holds.
I loved this album. If only Elektra would’ve supported it. I’m sure the record label knew the concept all along. Because I remember reading it was supposed to be called something old, something new, something borrowed and something cool. Which would’ve allowed them to have the classical samples and new/current music at the time. Riddle shouldn’t have been the lead single. If they would’ve done Love Suite concept as the lead off it could’ve been dope or Love Crazay as the lead single with a really cool video. It would’ve generated more buzz. Work it out, Sad but true, Love won’t take me out, and those dogs had the potential to be singles. But I think Elektra wanted to drop them any way. Has any of the girls ever talked about being dropped and no support for the album? Would love to hear their thoughts.
It's interesting to think about how things could have been different if Elektra had supported the album more. It's a shame that more of the songs weren't given the chance to be potential singles. As for the girls' thoughts on the lack of support for the album, it's definitely worth looking into and seeing if they've ever discussed it. If we ever get to interview them, that's something we'll definitely ask them about.
My position has evolved so much! I didn’t love MT when it came out. I grew up playing or listening to those classical pieces & I found the MT lyrics were weak & the production cheapened the original music & En Vogue. But I revisited it a couple of months ago & fell in love with a lot of it (while *still* hating the production 😂). I think the reason “Sad but true” came alive in Rotterdam was not the group configuration but the presence of an actual piano & full orchestra without any of FMOB’s cheap keyboards & drumbeats. That’s what fills it out. In fact there is *no percussion* in Rotterdam, letting the song swell & breathe. All EV’s music comes alive with live instruments - especially larger orchestras (even Ladies of Soul) & that’s what MT needed, I think, to match the ambition & source material of the project. Because the arrangements were cool & the girls killed it vocally. 🔥 Imo it’s a far more interesting album than EV3 - tied at #3 with “Electric cafe” (musically) among their albums. 💿 The sheer number of En Vogue songs that could have been so much more beautiful with better production (eg “A thousand times”) is almost criminal. Still, not sure this would ever have been a big commercial success for a number of reasons (many that you mentioned, which better production wouldn’t have solved).
The album was very under appreciated the album was a head if its time, those dogs would have been better with mainstream rapper’s something they has not done until having Snoop dog. Love you crazy, Latin soul and Love wont take me out could have been singles also.
Loved this podcast. MT was the first EV album I ever bought and to this day it remains my favourite. I loved the classical music concept and vocally, I literally can't think of any other body of work that even comes close to the harmonies on this album. However I do understand the criticisms of this album - it really wasn't radio-friendly enough compared to everything else that was out at the time.
Whilst I do like Riddle (especially the Stargate remix that was released in Europe) I don't think it was the best way to lead off the album campaign. They either needed a killer tune like Don't Mess With My Man (totally agree that that was the EV hit that never was) or they needed to commit to pushing the Masterpiece Theatre concept by releasing Love U Crazay so that the general public can get a better taste of what the album is about. And you guys are totally right - a Nutcracker themed video would have been perfect, and like I said would have been a better representation of the album.
My favourites from the album include No No No (Can't Come Back), Work It Out, Falling In Love, Whatever Will Be Will Be and Love Won't Take Me Out - perhaps their single greatest vocal performance IMO.
As for individual performances, whilst Terry remains my favourite overall, I do feel like Max had the best vocal moments on this album despite having the least leads.
It's awesome to hear that it's your favorite En Vogue album, and I agree that the classical music concept was really unique. The harmonies are definitely next-level. Love U Crazay could have showcased the album's concept a bit better, I agree. And I totally agree that Max's vocals were really standout on this album. I love love love this album!
Another great episode! I 💌 the song "love you more" & I think it would have been worth the investment to have it on the album.. It would have been a great follow up to Riddle. I love 99% of the Album. I always thought the Latin Soul song was cheezy AF...but perhaps with a remix it could have been better. I rate the album #4 after BTS, FD & EV3. I think it flopped bc they continued to be out of touch w/what the masses wanted which was the original 4 doing that cutting edge glam stuff. I remember being so disappointed when I went to Tower Records to buy this cd & saw they were still a trio. Also I too thought Maxine was replaced! I said to the cashier, "who dis woman?" She just shrugged her shoulders...I think she was not even featuring EV like that. Sadly they were forgotten. I'm still holding my breath for them to put out a dance album like they originally were going to do. They could cover a lot of genres but just need to keep it upbeat. And for god's sake let Rhona do the belting of the notes. We need that back in the mix.
I want that dance album too!
Totally agree with you on "I Love You More", it's such a great song and would have fit perfectly on the album. And yeah, that Latin Soul song was hella cheesy, but maybe a remix could have made it better. I rank this as my third favourite En Vogue album after the first two.
And thank you for your compliments on the episode. :)
I love masterpiece theater this album was just criminally underrated , the album was just genius in my opinion ❤. Don’t get me wrong I feel like if dawn was on This album it Would have been so different in a good way . But I will rate this Album as 10 tbh .
'Those Dogs' is such a great song. If En Vogue would have put DMX on there instead of those no name rappers I believe it would have been a big hit. 'Those Dogs' and 'Love U Crazy' are two of my favs on the album and they both have no name rappers, which En Vogue is notorious for utilizing. 'Lies' is the only song of theirs with a no name rapper that was a big hit. 'Hip Hop Lover' is another great song in their discography with a no name rapper. En Vogue loves the no names. 😂
"Love U Crazay" has Kamil Marzette.
Not the no-names LOL
Allegedly, "Love U Crazay" was supposed to be the 2nd single, followed by "I Love You More" as the 3rd/final one.
Ohhh isn’t “I love you more” that unreleased one? There’s also a slightly different version known as the remix too, such a fascinating era
I’m pretty sure the “remix” is just a radio edit , and it makes it more believable that it was gonna be a single
I Love You More? The song that isn't on the album? Hmm, okay.
@@aroundtheclock4751 “allegedly”
@@RareMusicSpam "Allegedly" what? Love U Crazay was added *because* I Love You More was omitted from the album.
I wish they worked with other producers, cause imagine an uptempo Darkchild produced break up song with vocals by en vogue ?!?
Dawn said that back in the late 2000s, the possibility of working with Darkchild was on the table. But, the other girls wanted to stick with F&M...per usual. That's why in the previous episode, I said in my submitted letter that Dawn, Max, and Rhona were the only ones RECEPTIVE to working with different producers, etc.
I agree with the ageism peice. At the time "Riddle" debuted, both Cindy and Max were 38, and Terry was 36. Especially when newcomers Amanda and Rhona joined, both of whom were 27 at the time.
1961: Cindy
1962: Max
1963: Terry
1965: Dawn
1974: Amanda
1976: Rhona
Rhona is the youngest, not Dawn lol
What year is Dawn actually born? 65, 66, or 68? There’s so much conflicting info (even some from her!) 😅
@@carolineneisha 1965. Dawn confirmed it in one of several her YT interviews, LOL.
@@RomeloE95 someone yesterday was saying she confirmed it was 1968 in another of those (many) interviews! 😂 And that was after I’d narrowed it down to ‘65 or ‘66 based on another interview & her time on R&B Divas. Wikipedia also has “1966 of 1968”. 🥴
I said it on the craze when the album dropped that Riddle was not the single to release 1st. Number One Man should have been the 1st single as Neo-Soul was huge in that time and that was a newer sound for EV. Riddle is cute and a bop, but it was not fitting into radio R&B at the moment; at least not in NYC. That was way before streaming became a thing, so we bought a cd and relied on radio and video. IMO; Number One Man, Luv U Crazy, No No No were the singles! Btw Rolling stone or Billboard ( I can’t remember which one) voted MPT the most underrated “masterpiece” that no one bought that year. Musicians love it, but it was not commercial enough
I tried to give MT a chance but it just didn't do it for me. I prefer EV3 over this album. I do wish they worked other producers & writers for it.
I also agree if Dawn was there I believe she would've had strong opinions against the direction of the album. The group has said before that since she was the youngest & was really into hip hop music, that she would keep them fresh.
It's crazy y'all mentioned how Don't Mess With My Man would've been a good single for MT cause I also have wondered if Lucy Pearl's album was actually Masterpiece Theater instead lol. Like if Raphael Saadiq, Ali Shaheed Muhammad, and EV4 worked on Masterpiece Theater. It would've also given a chance for EV to write.
It's sad that EV doesn't get acknowledged as much as their successors who've agreed that EV was their inspiration.
I agree they fumbled the bag with not having a proper reunion. The EV5 reunion could've been the start to resurgence to their career. Imagine this:
1. A full documentary on their Sylvia Rhone reunion showing behind the scenes footage of the rehearsals, sound check for the show, interviews from everyone involved, and the full performance.
2. EV5 on the Masked Singer.
3. EV5 doing that NYE's perfomance.
4. EV5 on the Mixtape Tour.
5. EV5 BTS and FD anniversary performances
6. A first ever EV5 album.
7. EV5 verzuz with BoyzIIMen (if they brought Mike for this one it'd really be great).
8. EV5 receiving a Hollywood Star.
9. And there's many other things I think they'd receive as EV5 over EVNow.
I feel like they really won't get the recognition they truly deserve unless Dawn & Maxine are back. EVNow are still killing it but I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that EV5 will surprise with a successful reunion....
Louise 😅😅😅😅
Puh-leeaasseee 🎶🎵 😂