Something being the best doesn't mean it's perfect, and a new system being different than the one perceived as the best one, doesn't mean the new one is effectively worse. Recently, I've seen less and less constructive criticism being offered, with people instead choosing to criticise a new release because its not like an older one they enjoyed (this isn't specific to Yakuza, but I digress). If we want this series to keep evolving, our discourse needs to evolve from merely saying "the older ones were better", or alternatively, saying that "you're not a fan if you don't like the new games too". As much as we adore them, these games were never perfect, but with each new addition, they've gradually improved in one way or another. Changes we may dislike now, could lead to something universally praised in due time. Moral of the story: we still have significant room for improvement left in these games, and the sooner we stop being so apprehensive towards anything new, the closer we'll be to helping RGG craft something truly perfect. Thank you for watching!
Well put together! You hit the nail on just about everything. The criteria and value of a "perfect" combat system will ultimately differ depending on who you ask. Some people, as much as they want to deny it, have fondness for a game they haven't touched in like 9 years because they just remember it to be peak so they'll keep preaching about it. Others will tell you that the combat having juggling is enough to make it the perfect combat. So eventually when you present what you believe is the "perfect RGG game combat-wise", someone else will just come up and tell you that it doesn't have something that they care about. I think it is absolutely natural and healthy for a franchise to have highs and at the same time have lows (which even then, they're subjective). Looking at the lows makes us appreciate the highs and vice versa. If everything was on the same wavelength, it would get stale eventually. Also, Lost Judgment side note, I can't stand the idea of saying it has flawless combat or talking about it like it's the holy grail when it has insane hitbox issues. I love LJ, but if I had a dollar for every time I dealt with wall attacks not connecting or grabs just going through the enemy, I'd be able to buy a brand new copy (or two) of $70 AAA game. Moral of the story: Like what you like, don't give shit to others for what they enjoy. If you truly want to be objective, each game has something to enjoy at the bare minimum. It's fine if you don't care for it, but someone else might, and you don't have to give them shit just for that.
Woah! It's the Leon clan first chairman, Devilleon7 himself! But in all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment and LJ has a flawed, yet highly evolved combat system that is just one point of RGG's evolution. P.S. I love your content, Leon! Cheers
No offense Leon, but LJ's best trait is its story. On literally one of your videos, the Final Boss battle of LJ on Legend, there's literally a post on your vid that says "Everybody gangsta until the Teacher and Lawyer start floating". I'm paraphrasing, but it has over 400 likes. LJ's combat quality is in how silly it is.
Beautifully put! Replaying the games frequently absolutely helps put things into perspective. Plus, with how different these games tend to be from entry to entry, they're bound to resonate more strongly with one part of the fanbase over another. Also, hard agree on the hitboxes hahahah
Kiryu so OP that I couldn't even show off juggle combo to my friend after finishing main story. I couldn't juggle arena bosses because I suck at juggling bosses. But I also couldn't juggle normal enemies because not a single one survives any of the juggle launcher moves.
@@sharif47i had the great idea to not level up my damage in any game starting with lost judgement! i wont level my damage in upcoming combat games except if it is turn based as infinite wealth
@@Kevvv890k personally, I think the power level is all over the place in Gaiden. Once you're moderately leveled up, street thugs will melt with mere touch. Meanwhile, high level coliseum fights will still be a grindfest.
@@Joe-Ligma69Basically just 0’s with some additions and changes, the boss fights are pretty forgettable in that game too, and commits one of the worst game sins.
Unpopular opinion, I really love 3 combat because of the difficulty of the game (I played on Hard and Legend) that make me actually have to strategize to fight through.
I agree with this opinion with bosses. However, I don't really want to strategize with low level punks on the streets that Kiryu canonically can mop the floor with.
I don't mind the more ex boost focused play style over like traditional heat actions but I think my problem with it in gaiden is how strictly enforced it feels. Mainly with agent style, pretty much my whole time playing through the game I felt punished whenever I switched to agent and tried to play in the more "traditional" way I felt like I was being coaxed constantly to turn on ex with the slow combo speed, short dodges and greatly weakened gadgets. Then you turn it on and the game basically plays itself with the infinite mortal reversals and way faster tracking rush combo. In this way I feel like LJ implemented it better cause that game also encourages ex boost with the faster style switching and exclusive ex actions and combos but it also doesn't take away from the base moveset. good video though and I agree that they should keep experimenting!
I agree with you on the point of preferring experimentation over a more safe and consistent combat design. If RGG played it safe we wouldn't have had LJ or Y8,the games that in my opinion are the best in their respective styles of gameplay in the series. But just because they are "the best" does not mean they don't have room for improvement (i.e. comparison Judgment to Lost judgment and Y7 to Y8). I'm very much looking forward to if those games can be surpassed in terms of their quality or better yet, redefine their approach in a way we wouldn't expect to see.
Hope Yagami will appear on mainline entry someday (hige copium) i mean come on RGG, you used everyone from judgement gang except yagarme, we know you want to
I strongly agree with your thoughts on Gaiden's combat. It doesn't 100% nail everything it was going for. But considering it was a smaller than main entry, 2 styles was absolutely fine. And using the smaller game to experiment with combat was a fantastic idea. Stuff like way more enemies per fight, and Agent Style in general. It's good to see them willing to experiment rather than just polishing the same thing over and over again.
@@alarminglyfastmovingskelet7289It is a spinoff. A really good one that grew to become its own IP (like Persona did to SMT), but a spinoff nontheless to the Like A Dragon series.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG My word choice was poor, I meant main as in full size. Gaiden is smaller than most of the rest of the series. (including the Judgment games)
I love the EX mode of Boxer in Lost Judgement. It's definitely half baked, but the speed and distance is addicting. It's honestly up there with Y5 Akiyama and Y0 Breaker for me in terms of fun.
I replayed Zero a while back and realized how much I dislike the “Gear” system (referring to different Heat levels). It’s so confusing trying to remember which Heat actions and skills activate at each level, like one of the Breaker skills you learn requires Heat Level 2 to pull off, and trying to get to Heat Level 2 (without wasting inventory space with lower Tauriners) is annoying when you’re trying to focus on just fighting. Also the Yakuza enemies that spawn in Chapter 9 or 10 for Kiryu can kiss my ass. Constantly stun-lock you with their knives and pistols
Yeah, the 3 bar heat system is genuinely awful, it's one of the things that hold 0 back for me, specially the fact that your combo speed is slower the less heat you have. This is why I'd say stuff like Rush sucks in 0 but is great in Kiwami 1. Full speed combos no matter your heat in Kiwami 1.
Isn't it literally "Blue" and "Red" heat system from older games, just visually different? Like, I'd want to hear opinions of people who say it works differently
@@alexeyeliseev6322Here's a very simple way to explain them: In every game with the blue and red heat system from older games, you can always Tiger Drop regardless of your heat. In 0, Majima gets his own counter move for Thug style, but can only be used if you have 3 bars of heat, and consumes heat. That should be enough to understand why it sucks.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Majima's counter is not Tiger Drop, it's a different move. Also, there is still a proto tiger drop Kiryu can use and it does not consume heat. As for Majima, he's got that knife move, dunno what to call it... stabby drop?
Greetings from Romania! Yakuza 3 is by far the most underappreciated in terms of combat… the game pretty much forces you to strategize on how you should deal with the enemies and their blocking and not spam the same combo over and over again till the enemy is down
3 combat is nothing like the rest of the serious for all the beat reasons. The sounds are super meaty. Plus when you get in bro, hands down one of the best feeling combats in the series. The best? Nah, unique and fun af? Yes sir
I think each combat system is representative of the entry's focus on its combat, so classifying the "best" style is dependent on what the player wants from a combat system. Like A Dragon & Infinite Wealths are using a standard RPG system with a more ridiculous realistic view, IW being more about positionning and incorporating Brawler combat elements into the pre-existing RPG system. Lost Judgment clearly had as a main idea "focused versatility". Each style can do a general thing, but players can choose how. Each styles have defensive, evasive and offensive maneuvers Crane has Sky Dancer/great quickstep/Good crowd control & easy juggle access. Tiger has a Block Strike/Guard Roll/Charged finishers & EX Combo Snake has the guard parry/Quickstep attacks/EX Surrender (Didn't have the DLC's so I can't talk about Kaito/Boxing style) Yakuza 0/Kiwami had a segmented approach to styles. Brawler is somewhat well rounded, Rush was about evasive strikes, Beast was about raw damage and pure defense, Dragon was (or at least intended to be, we all know it turned into the Tiger Drop style) all about Heat Management. Gaiden's two styles have a heavy focus on either Offense and Defense, Agent has defensive techniques more tailored towards long distance encounters, traps and Evasion. Dragon is more focused on all out Agression with charged triple finishers, extremely damaging Heat moves and the tiger drop. Other Yakuza games were about variety in one style. With different character specializing into different playstyles. Each game also had its little quirks like bounding and 6-K2's focus on physics based interactions.
honestly, i wish more action/action rpg discussion contextualized itself within the larger meta genre and its development/techniques. very glad to see someone talking about it in this context.
Another thing to bring up with combat isn’t just the movesets but also the encounters and fights themselves, and how they balance with each other. To me, 6 is a game with a bad moveset but well designed boss fights that almost compensate for Kiryu not being very fun in that game
I really Enjoyed every combat but out of all of them I think Yakuza 5 was my favorite Considering how every character is strong in their own way what I loved about 5’s combat is that it’s more on the equal side of 0 and Ishin Kiwami
Lost Judgement, to me, has the most fluid and varied combat. Gaiden gave me agent, which is probably my overall favorite combat style, especially for the dragon engine.
I do love how much combat has changed and been experimented on since, and i loooove gaiden's combat especially, however i will firmly state that yakuza 2 still did it best way back nearly 20 years ago
I don’t necessarily want to do infinite combos, while it’s not perfect, LJ juggling does last a long time but the damage decreases the longer you keep it going, while in Gaiden there’s no damage decrease but it only lasts around 5 seconds.
LJ still is the best for me atleast till this point (im still on kiwami 2), everything just flows and feels responsive compare to the others games i’ve played. its probably one of the games where i was encourge to switch style on every fight encounter like Ghost of Tsushima, where every styles just have their own uses plus the game rewards you for it.
For me, lost judgment is my favorite, mainly cause of juggling and such but within a sense none of the games have a bad combat system they all have a system that is meant to fit it's game Edit: And from what i seen of gaiden, i probably will also like it but haven't played yet
My favorite combat systems in my opinion are Yakuza 0's, Yakuza kiwami, and Lost Judgement. Though if i did had to pick one, it would be Lost Judgement. It's not perfect I know, but the main thing I like about Lost Judgement's combo system besides the improved juggling I show it encourages the player to not stick to one style, and one of the most stylish combat systems in the franchise. Though I will say I wish they had given Kaito a third style, and that you didn't have press multiple buttons for the qtes.
First of all, great video I want to share my personal opinion on the matter too since this is a topic that is really dear to me. I fell in love with this series mostly because of the action combat. As a lover of Lost Judgement's combat I can honestly say I'm surprised when I hear people complain about Gaiden and Ishin Kiwami's combat systems. Honestly it feels to me like a lot of people are eager to jump on bandwagons and accept an opinion without really looking further into it. I fully agree that more combat styles isn't necessarily a good thing, for example I think that the boxing style in LJ is actually a detriment to the overall system (it was originally DLC in fact). Snake style is being slept on massively, it is super good in the right contexts and most importantly I think the fact that you can't switch to a specific style is a solid choice because it creates a specific flow of combat with the three styles buffing and playing into each other. Boxing is the odd one out and I seriously advise everyone to deactivate it, at least in their first playthrough. Gaiden's two styles are really enough. I don't get why we would need another one and the people who complain about it should stop for a moment and really think about *why* they want another style... is it maybe because other games have had more than two? Is that really a good reason? I personally think that Gaiden's combat is overall weaker than LJ's but for a reason that I'll go into later. Ishin Kiwami's combat is absolutely great. I really do not get how someone might think it is not. There is a really big issue with it, I agree, but it's something that can be easily ignored if wanted; the cards system. The troop card abilities can be insanely powerful and the buffs themselves are crazy. If you really really grind them out and gacha the best cards and level them up you'll be incredibly OP to the point that the combat loses all of its value. This is not something unique to Ishin Kiwami, Yakuza 0 could reach a similar conclusion with the legend styles, but luckily this is an issue that can be fixed completely by simply not engaging with the troop cards. Treat them as consumables or a difficulty option and the issue disappears. (Another issue I could add is the over reliance on weapon quality but that's kind of the design of the game being different than usual. For some it's cool to get new and improved weapons) What really makes this a difficult discussion is the fact that combat quality isn't solely reliant on the system itself but also on the enemies you will face. What good is a perfect fighting system if the enemies are not fun to fight? This can be seen with 0 and Kiwami 1. Arguably, Kiwami 1's combat is a simply improved version of 0 so why don't people claim it's the best one? Simple, because the boss fights in Kiwami 1 are generally sub par if not outright terrible with only a couple being really memorable. Even more confusing is the fact that the overall quality of a game can influence its opinion on the combat. Again 0 vs Kiwami 1 comes to mind, since the latter's side content and story are considered worse than the former, reasonably so. Kiwami's fighting style can't shine in a game that people are not stoked to play. Gaiden itself suffers from the simple fact there's no NG+ and legend difficulty available. I can't really fully explore this combat system if the game is too easy. At one point in the video you talk about how we shouldn't put certain games on a pedestal and compare every other entry to them to ascertain whether they have a good combat system or not. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement but I feel it is equally as important to recognize that certain elements can be analized as being "objectively" better than others. Sure, the combat system in 3 works for its game's scope and needs but if I asked you or really anyone else which game's combat they would sooner want in a new game, would you choose 3? It's important to understand WHY 3's system is flawed and why LJ's is so good etc etc. Gaiden exists because the devs looked at LJ's combat, saw the good reception and realized what needed to be done. Accepting that there indeed are systems that are better than others is important otherwise there could be no improvement.
You cooked with the thumbnail Kyodai. When i was doing my yakuza 0 no upgrade run, i realised that the game's combat was not as perfect as i originally thought. Cough cough heat gear system. I disliked the idea of combo speeds increasing the higher the heat level was.
A thought I have on the inherent differences between Brawler and Turn-Based, is Brawler is more towards the skilled player, and Turn-Based to the thoughtful player. Now, skill and thought go into both (looking at you, no-damagers), but each lean into their "preferred" player. A Brawler game can be no-damaged, whereas a Turn-Based can't, simply due to it being out of the player's control when the enemy hits. Brawlers need some skill outright to beat them (namely with Gaiden's Amon fight, his healing can seriously test your skill), but after a while, Turn-Based can become simply whittling away at a health bar, using moves over and over, using items to gain back MP. Turn-based counters the issue of 'whittle away the boss' with flashy moves, ones too ridiculous even for heat actions. There's inherit good, inherit bad with each system, more initmate, you're-there-in-the-fight feeling with Brawlers, and the JRPG zaniness with turn-based. Then comes along Kiryu in Infinite Wealth who gives the middle-finger to it all and goes into a Brawler, canonically so at times. (If you count the memory spheres with the Three Jimas as 'canon.')
I know this is a spinoff, but Kurohyou's combat is absolutely great in my opinion. There's a lot of styles, and you can feel the impact with each hit and the sfx adds to that. You can even make your own style in Kurohyou 2.
To me, the parry mechanic ruins the combat of Kurohyou 1 and 2, at least a bit. I say this as a guy who literally got parried by every enemy and boss in both Kurohyou 1 and 2, even when they were kneeled down in K1.
@@DarkkirbyKRPGI guess it encouraged me to learn how to counter as well. Plus, grabs are insanely strong in kurohyou 1 but I know it's not fun to abuse that all the time. I think in 2, enemies parry less I'm not sure
Beautifully put i think hard to find an objective answer the "best system" each game combat despite it flaws does it intends to well it not perfect but that nature of experimentation it fascinating to see as not many games fo that today Also can do video like this talking about the music direction in the series and it changed over the last few entries
we strive so much in seeking perfection we often become blinded to the flaws of that which we deem perfect for the sake of putting that thing on a pedestal and often times perfection is imposible to achive truely which is to say every yakuza game can be someones favorite my favorites gameplay wise are gaiden 7/8 kiwami 1 and 0
I'm of the mindset that there is room for multiple "best" combat systems, all depending on what your personal preferences are on several factors. Like, if you enjoy the Kiwami engine combat then take your pick - 5, 0, or K1, if you enjoy the dragon engine, LJ or Gaiden, and so on. This video is actually the first time I hear of people calling Gaiden disappointing, and it mystifies me. I personally loved it, just wish there was more of it (one of the best shortcomings a game could have!) but I still feel like I got my money's worth and had a great time. I'm not entirely sure where I'd rank it on my favorite games in the series, though I know my top 2 are 0 and LJ... I haven't finished IW yet, so we'll see if Gaiden or IW compete for third place (previously Kiwami 2).
I just feel that people see that the combat of lost Judgment is the herald of the best RGG combat system they made and anything that doesn’t match its style or goes beyond itself isn’t worth noting. Though each games combat is different from it’s predecessor in one shape or form as though some games like yakuza 3-4 or yakuza 5-0 uses the same engine, they build upon new mechanics and strengthen the foundations of its predecessor’s combat style.
Great video as always. I really like your perspective on the subject. To me, the best combat systems are 0 and Lost Judgements. But it might be different for another player. Depends what you're looking for in the game, but also how well it matches the story and character. On another note, since you're also a Tekken player, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on 8's story. I personally found it lacking. But maybe you picked up something I missed.
The best is Yakuza Kiwami 1. It does everything Y0 does but better, the encounter design is better and unlike Y0 it has Tiger Drop. Not to mention it has the best Amon encounter imo.
Nope. Combat is too disruptive, does not flow properly, nerfed heat system is lacking compared to 0, and stun-lock is too common. Too many annoying bosses, not because they are hard but because they stun too much. Also, normal is too easy and hard mode is too stale with high HP enemies and nerfed damage.
We'll have to wait until September before he can officially return to the industry post his exit from Platinum, but I would play the HELL out of that game 😁
Longest comment in the known universe ahead, beware. The thing I would say as a fervent and devout Gaiden hater is that any new thing they tried to impliment to stop it from feeling like Judgment 3 fails on a conceptual level, at least for me. Agent style as a whole feels like an overly flashy gimmick, as it has no real options for crowd control outside gadget spam since the really wide-reaching moves are at the end of the combo, or locked behind extreme heat. Yakuza style, by contrast, had a lot of its uniqueness and utility from 6 and K2 taken away for the sake of prioritizing Agent style, and because of my previous thoughts, I can't help but feel like it was unjustly nerfed. Look just beneath the surface, and you'll realize just how many moves were taken away from it (not to mention the dropkick and heavy charge attack still being the terrible ones from K2). The way I've found best when it comes to judging each game's combat is finding a way to decrease my attack as much as possible. Remove all sense of a power trip and judge it solely on this question: When doing basically no damage and defeating enemies very slowly, am I still having fun? For most of the games, that answer is yes. In 0 and K1, the core system with style switching creates a very fun gameplay loop. Low damage gives me more time to try new strategies and combos. In 3, the constant need to strategize makes the battles being so drawn out feel so satisfying. It's almost like that feeling you'd get from a turn based game, but in active combat. In 1 and 6, every move has a specific utility and purpose, so finding their use in battle feels satisfying. At low damage, I'm more encouraged to see how all of my options fit into any given combat encounter. In LJ, the moveset bloat results in a sort of joy knowing that at any given moment, I have a vast multitude of options for how I want to deal with enemies. The extra time given by low attack damage gives me ample opportunity to try more options than I would otherwise. In Gaiden, I'm limited in both options and utility, as there's an obvious dominant strategy (constantly use Spider or juggle with drunk Yakuza until hitting extreme heat, then swap back to Agent, rinse repeat), with the only other alternative being to whittle down enemy health bars and pray they don't get random super armor and deny my already limited combos. The only joy I get from it is the power trip. There's plenty more to be said about how enemy behavior factors into this, and that's where my biggest complaints with 6 and LJ lie, but I've said more than enough as is. I hope I come off as relatively justified in my complaints, obviously I don't care how a game feels as long as it feels good, but the sheer drop in my experience from LJ to Gaiden can't leave me feeling anything less than total disappointment. I hope if/when we get another brawler style game, that they take the lessons learned from Gaiden and iterate on the series in a more positive direction. More options with more reasons to use them, less options with multi-purpose utility, polishing previous ideas or something entirely new. Anything. I just want to see this series prove that it still has what it takes to do my favorite genre of game in a way that only it can.
I must be alone in thinking Gaiden is where the combat peaked. It felt like the full completion of Kiryu’s styles in the engine. What did people not like about it? Also personally I’m not a fan of Yagami’s style and how weak he feels compared to Kiryu. Though I never got the boxing style
My favourite is definitely a toss up between Yakuza 5 or Gaiden. Individually and just purely 'for me' I enjoyed Tanimura's the most, especially when only viewing it in the context of Yakuza 4 and only Yakuza 4.
The experimentation in combat systems is great! This series' gameplay definitely wouldn't feel as interesting and new if every game was literally just a copy-paste of the previous one. Gaiden's combat definitely brings a lot of positive aspects that open up for improvement if RGG decides to go along with stuff like gadgets for styles (huge missed opportunity to make Serpent gadget usable outside of combat btw). I do think the concept of multiple styles is a huge bonus for the combat and imo RGG shouldn't ever go back to just one, but I also don't want more than, let's say, 4 per character. I'd rather see them experiment and improve upon the styles in different ways rather than unnecessarily making an entirely new one, possibly at the expense of an old one. The next step is air combos with Sugiura in Judgment 3. Nice video, shorter than usual but still thought-provoking!
Hey there my Balkan aniki, this is slightly off topic but I was wondering if you had any ideas for future Gaiden games? I think an Akiyama game would be interesting and would make a lot of sense. Also, regarding combat, I am oddly a fan of the weapon centric Kiwami 2 combat (I know this is a fringe opinion.) Anyways, hope you have a good week, as always your videos continue to be extremely thought provoking and I really appreciate your content.
Thank you for the kind words! I'd love to see an Akiyama game, especially with the off-hand mention of Singapore in Infinite Wealth. Other than that, my other top contenders for a Gaiden would be Mine, Ryuji, Aizawa and Ukyo Tatsuya (also, agree on the weapon-based side in K2 being really fun)
@@gokudoni Wow, a Ryuji/Mine game would be amazing! I also think a Kurohyō style game with Shounen elements set when Kiryu and Nishiki are in highschool would be really interesting. That one cutscene from Zero really peaked my interest, no one ever seems to bring that idea up.
Greetings from Romania 🇷🇴 My favourite combat it yakuza ,,like a dragon "Gaiden it just so fun and somehow i liked more yakuza 3's combat because it actually challenges the player to change his style not just mash square but i can understand why some people hate it because BLOCK anyway can't wait for the next vid. Bud :))
I completely disagree with your points. Yes experimentation is needed, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of overall quality. Judgment was an experimental title but it directly improved the overall quality of DE combat and set a new standard for it, something that LJ did after Judgment. Gaiden was an overall downgrade from the DE combat system that LJ established. It made changes that served nothing for the game. The Yakuza style lost so much of its utility from K2 and 6, along with having a slow ass combo speed. The juggling limit literally adds nothing to game but make its combat more limited. The agent style is pretty gimmicky and also limited by itself, certainly not enough to carry the combat. If Gaiden had kept the LJ juggling system, way less people would have complained, because although we’ve regressed to 2 styles, the overall standard and quality we expect from the combat is still left mostly untouched.
I fully believe that Kiwami 1 is the best. Kiwami 1 has Styles and incredible combos, you can do infinites and style switch mid combo. Whilst LJ is incredible i really dont like the focus on juggling because its a bit too accesible or more so i dont think you canreally differentiate between a good and bad "juggler" also i unfortunatly dont really like juggling. 0 is similiar to K1 but unfortunately you cant style switch mid combo as easily and theres no time for godspeed. 5 is incredible but the weak bosses and being OP just makes it hard to replay also combos are very hard. Gaiden is basically a heat action simulator and juggles are very inconsistent and sadly timed but i will admit that despite these flaws i still see people mastering it which i respect. But i think it just depends on if your a Dragon Engine Enjoyer or a Kiwami Engine Enjoyer. If you prefer juggles and heat actions with stylish effects then LJ will problaby be your favorite, if you enjoy the more classic "crunch" to attacks and a focus on combos and infinites then K1 will be your favorite. And if you love wallbounding then maybe its 3 or 4. And if you want to "SHINEYA BOKE" and "IKUZO KORA" then you may just enjoy Kurohyou. At the end of the day it depends on how you like your combos (or dont) and dont let anyone tell you whats the best, you can have fun with every combat in every game, heck even yakuza 3 has some incredible wallbounds and combos so find what fits you the best.
About Gaiden it’s pretty weird, I don’t really think feels worse than LJ but it’s more limiting, and is weirder since Gaiden is literally built off LJ. It’s just small things like the style switch speed being slower, but it’s still fast enough to not break the flow of combat. I kinda see what they were doing wanting Yakuza style to be hard hitting and slow while agent is the super fast style. I think a better tradeoff would’ve been to double the speed but nerf the damage in half. Gaiden also has this weird combo interruption thing happening when you walk and it does something, not sure if it’s because of the map but it didn’t really happen in LJ. It happened in games before LJ but who knows since LJ wasn’t in sotenbori.
if we’re counting all Yakuza games as opposed to splitting up the turn-based and the action games, my personal top 5 goes Lost Judgment LAD: Gaiden Infinite Wealth Kiwami 2 Akiyama in 4/5
Nobody is saying LJ is perfect, but it is definitely more polished compared to Gaiden. You probably wont even read the rest of this comment but honestly This comes off like you're trying hard to defend against gaidens flaws yet the key point you're missing when comparing LJ to Gaiden isn't cause there's less styles or less juggle time. It's about is how the games systems are incomplete with itself Say what you want about snake and boxer style but they complement all 4 styles better when it comes to boss design cause they actually interact with all of Yagamis moves. However, with Gaiden's bosses, they tank all of Kiryu's hits where you can barely get a combo in while hardly any of the utility of Agent styles gadgets even work against them. You menrion extreme heat mode being an "evolution" yet Kiryu's agent style combo inconsistently launches enemies when it wants to and you cant even use his regular melee combos in it compared to LJ's extreme heat. Idek why you used bayonetta as an example because the systems in that game actually work with eachorher. It could've been an evolution if they spent more than some months developing the game, then the combat could've been more polished, but compared to LJ it isn't. THAT is the problem with it. You didn't even explain what makes it an evolution besides the enemies scale and saying "I liked it" lol
Lost Judgment is great and probably my favorite so far, but isn't perfect. When I replayed game on PC I found boxer style to be very lackluster, compared to other standard 3 styles that were polished af (even on PS4 at 30 fps), boxer felt very off and that was a paid DLC on release :\
Yeah 2 fighting styles actually made a lot of sense for Gaiden because think about it. The game has a 12 hour story with any side content being up to you on how much of it you want complete, if the game had 4 fighting styles there's no way most players will realistically be able to upgrade each fighting style to it's full potential. Also I liked your approach to it because a lot this discussion is widely subjective. For example, I much rather deal with Y3's blocking than Y6/K2's ragdolling.
You can just cheese the six second juggle thing by dropping them before it happens and instantly rejuggle them. It just punishes the player for having fun. Really, I don't think there's a single thing that Gaiden does better than LJ combat wise. Agent is useless without spamming gadgets/entering EX-Heat and Yakuza is horribly slow somehow compared to Y6. Like another comment said, Agent feels like a gimmick to deal with the bigger enemy count.
Pretty much, all the juggle limit does is just pigeonhole players into using a select few moves before letting the enemy drop to the ground, and doing it all again. And really it’s inevitable that Gaiden’s gonna be compared to LJ anyway since it uses the exact same base except p much everything LJ did well they either didn’t do or made worse. I do still like Gaiden’s combat though even if it is essentially bootleg LJ lmaooooooo.
People who say Gaiden needed more styles are looking at the flaws of the combat and finding the wrong solution. Agent is janky, undercooked, and unintuitive and Yakuza style is back to 6 speeds with no way to improve the speed. Gaiden enemies are super aggressive but there's no parry(despite him having one in literally every game) and Kiryu is sluggish which leads to stale and degenerate strategies being rewarded in favor of experimentation or style. Yakuza style in particular is frustrating because it's not only slow but the moves it shares with Tiger are somehow worse, it still has the shitty K2 run attack instead of the 6 drop kick, and the hitboxes seem to lack verticality leading to juggles getting dropped due to Kiryu straight up whiffing The juggle limit is a good idea in theory but 6 seconds is wayyyy too short and the lack of damage scaling is a bit of a problem
Mm.. i guess how i look at it as each person has their preference of "Best" combat. I feel Lost Judgment has the best. i can't exactly say why? i guess it.. feels Fresh? Gaiden is right behind it. Maybe i spent alot of time on LJ. Every game has its own combat. outside of Yakuza combat it's DMC5 it's so smooth like a babies butt.
I think a lot of fan discourse does end up losing the nuance of where combat systems can be improved. When people spend a long time learning game systems, they can end up being excessively defensive. LJ is still my favourite combat system in an RGG game, but there's always room for improvement, and I was more than satisfied with Gaiden clearly taking influences from LJ while being its own thing (and having its own unique flaws). I also think at this point, including Infinite Wealth in the discussion is worth doing and proof why continuing to experiment is for the best. While real time and turn based combat is fundamentally very different, IW is one of the best implementations of real time/turn based hybrid combat I've ever seen.
For me it’s Lost Judgment, but the problem with that game is that there isn’t a place you can fight even skilled enemies and the bosses are too easy. Gaiden for me has literally the exact opposite problem (looking at you 11 health bars WITH A SWORD Shishido)
No, lost judgment is my favorite game and thus it has the best combat, my opinion is objectively better than everyone else's /s But seriously, while I do agree with the video, one of your points you listed for gaiden don't work for me. Shortning juggle time just straight up made juggling less fun, especially since you can _still_ get infinite juggles easily, and speaking of juggles, i don't like how it's nearly impossible to pull them off on bosses without eating damage in Gaiden, the only time i'd be able to pull them off consistantly is if i was able to do a mortal reversal near a wall. Other than that, i also didn't like Gaiden's hyper armor, it felt too unfair, especially with Gai Amon since he can tiger drop you even in the middle of a back combo, I found that lost judgment's solution of just having the enemy block your combo instead of hyper armor is better, you're not getting off super long damaging combos from a single dodge, but you're also not getting fucked over.
I agree, it seems to me that Gaiden took the Y3 route in that it is somewhat difficult to gather heat since it is more focused on the combat itself, the difference is that in Gaiden it improves this by making the Heat Actions do significant damage. I like this philosophy of depending less on Heat actions, I love Y0 but there comes a point where the fights become a display of Heat Actions and many "difficult" bosses are these walls of Super Armor where you have to figure out how to cheese with Heat actions . And one opinion I think that to take into account the combat you should also take into account the enemies if they are fun to fight, and for that reason I am not a big fan of Y5's combat simply because it has the most annoying enemy behavior in my opinion, all enemies block a lot, they all grab a lot, they are too frequent, they take TOO much time on the ground which I absolutely hate, some Heat Actions animation is too long (it's a problem with Akiyama and Shinada), many enemies in the coliseum They have Kiryu's move set which makes everyone feel too similar, etc, etc, I honestly prefer Y3's combat than Y5's.
As someone who’s huge into action games and ofc yakuza, gaiden was for sure a disappointment in terms of its combat system, not necessarily because of it having only two styles but mainly because style switching is so slow in that game, it makes making cool or flashy looking combos harder, the juggle system is effectively much worse because 6 hits and your opponents already on the ground making for extremely limited combos. What this game DID do right in terms of combat was damage scaling, in LJ when you did a juggle your damage and heat actions would do shit for damage, a heat action would do 1 damage instead of its usual because of a juggle you were doing. In that way gaiden took one step forward but with my points it took two steps back. Hopefully for the next game with beat em up combat they’ll learn to use the strengths of both gaiden and LJ to use🙏
yakuza combat system tier of my own thought S : lost judgment, Y5 (so enjoyable) A : Y3, Y4 (great) B: Y6, Kiwami (good, but need improvement) C: judgment, Y0 (kind of boring or lack of variety) D: Kiwami2, Gaiden, Kaito Files (serious problems, make me want to quit)
Lost judgement best combat. Gaiden is too inconsistent. 6 is weak but got impact. 5 is solid. 4 is rly good. 3, for me satisfying but lowkey drawn out. K2 idk don't like it. K1 rly good. 0 just rly rly good
Kiwami 1 combat is too disruptive, does not flow properly, nerfed heat system is lacking compared to 0, and stun-lock is too common. Too many annoying bosses, not because they are hard but because they stun too much. Also, normal is too easy and hard mode is too stale with high HP enemies and nerfed damage.
Something being the best doesn't mean it's perfect, and a new system being different than the one perceived as the best one, doesn't mean the new one is effectively worse. Recently, I've seen less and less constructive criticism being offered, with people instead choosing to criticise a new release because its not like an older one they enjoyed (this isn't specific to Yakuza, but I digress).
If we want this series to keep evolving, our discourse needs to evolve from merely saying "the older ones were better", or alternatively, saying that "you're not a fan if you don't like the new games too". As much as we adore them, these games were never perfect, but with each new addition, they've gradually improved in one way or another. Changes we may dislike now, could lead to something universally praised in due time.
Moral of the story: we still have significant room for improvement left in these games, and the sooner we stop being so apprehensive towards anything new, the closer we'll be to helping RGG craft something truly perfect.
Thank you for watching!
I eat the cotton candy from my walls
The combat obviously peaked with Dondoko Island
It’s got the best combos, enemies can’t just escape
Yakuza 3 but YOU have stunlock
Well put together! You hit the nail on just about everything. The criteria and value of a "perfect" combat system will ultimately differ depending on who you ask. Some people, as much as they want to deny it, have fondness for a game they haven't touched in like 9 years because they just remember it to be peak so they'll keep preaching about it. Others will tell you that the combat having juggling is enough to make it the perfect combat. So eventually when you present what you believe is the "perfect RGG game combat-wise", someone else will just come up and tell you that it doesn't have something that they care about.
I think it is absolutely natural and healthy for a franchise to have highs and at the same time have lows (which even then, they're subjective). Looking at the lows makes us appreciate the highs and vice versa. If everything was on the same wavelength, it would get stale eventually.
Also, Lost Judgment side note, I can't stand the idea of saying it has flawless combat or talking about it like it's the holy grail when it has insane hitbox issues. I love LJ, but if I had a dollar for every time I dealt with wall attacks not connecting or grabs just going through the enemy, I'd be able to buy a brand new copy (or two) of $70 AAA game.
Moral of the story: Like what you like, don't give shit to others for what they enjoy. If you truly want to be objective, each game has something to enjoy at the bare minimum. It's fine if you don't care for it, but someone else might, and you don't have to give them shit just for that.
Woah! It's the Leon clan first chairman, Devilleon7 himself! But in all seriousness, I agree with your sentiment and LJ has a flawed, yet highly evolved combat system that is just one point of RGG's evolution.
P.S.
I love your content, Leon!
Cheers
No offense Leon, but LJ's best trait is its story. On literally one of your videos, the Final Boss battle of LJ on Legend, there's literally a post on your vid that says "Everybody gangsta until the Teacher and Lawyer start floating". I'm paraphrasing, but it has over 400 likes. LJ's combat quality is in how silly it is.
Beautifully put! Replaying the games frequently absolutely helps put things into perspective. Plus, with how different these games tend to be from entry to entry, they're bound to resonate more strongly with one part of the fanbase over another. Also, hard agree on the hitboxes hahahah
My favorite thing about gaiden is the fact that Kiryu Hits so hard in yakuza style. That they fly across the area. That shit is hilarious.
Lore Accurte Kiryu
Kiryu so OP that I couldn't even show off juggle combo to my friend after finishing main story.
I couldn't juggle arena bosses because I suck at juggling bosses.
But I also couldn't juggle normal enemies because not a single one survives any of the juggle launcher moves.
@@sharif47i had the great idea to not level up my damage in any game starting with lost judgement! i wont level my damage in upcoming combat games except if it is turn based as infinite wealth
@@Kevvv890k personally, I think the power level is all over the place in Gaiden.
Once you're moderately leveled up, street thugs will melt with mere touch.
Meanwhile, high level coliseum fights will still be a grindfest.
You said lost judgement isn’t perfect? Beware snowiest.
It's not perfect because Kiwami is
It's true tho there's so much to improve on an already great system. I just wish they split styles onto the other dpad buttons cos they're unused
Clearly 3 is the best.
@@Joe-Ligma69Basically just 0’s with some additions and changes, the boss fights are pretty forgettable in that game too, and commits one of the worst game sins.
Definitely the most fluid, but should all games feel as fluid as Lost Judgement? Should Kiryu go all over the place like Yagami does?
We all know that Dead Souls clearly had the best combat. Like, who doesn’t like guns
Every non American country
As Shigeru Miyamoto says "every game is better with a gun"
As a dead souls enjoyer your goddamn right
>who doesn't like guns
Any person who opposes Daigo lol
Daigo and Majima substory carries.
yakuza 3 has the best combat because kiryu wears a cool shirt in that one
So true.
Hahahah absolutely agree! Also, thank you for the quality content you do. It's always a joy to watch
True!
Yakuza 3 is literally the best game, period
Nuh uh its dead souls because kiryu has a barret 50 cal (with nerf bullets because he doesn't kill)
Unpopular opinion, I really love 3 combat because of the difficulty of the game (I played on Hard and Legend) that make me actually have to strategize to fight through.
I have to agree with you
This shouldn't be an unpopular opinion at all.
hard agree
I agree with this opinion with bosses. However, I don't really want to strategize with low level punks on the streets that Kiryu canonically can mop the floor with.
3 plays a bit like a fighting game in that sense. I like it.
I don't mind the more ex boost focused play style over like traditional heat actions but I think my problem with it in gaiden is how strictly enforced it feels. Mainly with agent style, pretty much my whole time playing through the game I felt punished whenever I switched to agent and tried to play in the more "traditional" way I felt like I was being coaxed constantly to turn on ex with the slow combo speed, short dodges and greatly weakened gadgets. Then you turn it on and the game basically plays itself with the infinite mortal reversals and way faster tracking rush combo. In this way I feel like LJ implemented it better cause that game also encourages ex boost with the faster style switching and exclusive ex actions and combos but it also doesn't take away from the base moveset. good video though and I agree that they should keep experimenting!
Spinoff idea kiryu and Bayonetta start hanging out in okinawa and its a full on character action game but kiryu has a new wheelchair based moveset
I agree with you on the point of preferring experimentation over a more safe and consistent combat design. If RGG played it safe we wouldn't have had LJ or Y8,the games that in my opinion are the best in their respective styles of gameplay in the series. But just because they are "the best" does not mean they don't have room for improvement (i.e. comparison Judgment to Lost judgment and Y7 to Y8). I'm very much looking forward to if those games can be surpassed in terms of their quality or better yet, redefine their approach in a way we wouldn't expect to see.
The thumbnail with Yagami vs Kiryu goes hard
Hope Yagami will appear on mainline entry someday (hige copium)
i mean come on RGG, you used everyone from judgement gang except yagarme, we know you want to
I strongly agree with your thoughts on Gaiden's combat.
It doesn't 100% nail everything it was going for. But considering it was a smaller than main entry, 2 styles was absolutely fine. And using the smaller game to experiment with combat was a fantastic idea. Stuff like way more enemies per fight, and Agent Style in general.
It's good to see them willing to experiment rather than just polishing the same thing over and over again.
People seem to forget that Judgment, a full-on main entry, only had 2 styles lmao.
@@alarminglyfastmovingskelet7289Judgment isn't a main entry but sure lol
@@DarkkirbyKRPG We're past the point of Judgment being a 'spinoff'. It is it's own IP, not sure what year you're living in
@@alarminglyfastmovingskelet7289It is a spinoff. A really good one that grew to become its own IP (like Persona did to SMT), but a spinoff nontheless to the Like A Dragon series.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG My word choice was poor, I meant main as in full size. Gaiden is smaller than most of the rest of the series. (including the Judgment games)
I love the EX mode of Boxer in Lost Judgement. It's definitely half baked, but the speed and distance is addicting. It's honestly up there with Y5 Akiyama and Y0 Breaker for me in terms of fun.
I replayed Zero a while back and realized how much I dislike the “Gear” system (referring to different Heat levels). It’s so confusing trying to remember which Heat actions and skills activate at each level, like one of the Breaker skills you learn requires Heat Level 2 to pull off, and trying to get to Heat Level 2 (without wasting inventory space with lower Tauriners) is annoying when you’re trying to focus on just fighting.
Also the Yakuza enemies that spawn in Chapter 9 or 10 for Kiryu can kiss my ass. Constantly stun-lock you with their knives and pistols
Yeah, the 3 bar heat system is genuinely awful, it's one of the things that hold 0 back for me, specially the fact that your combo speed is slower the less heat you have.
This is why I'd say stuff like Rush sucks in 0 but is great in Kiwami 1. Full speed combos no matter your heat in Kiwami 1.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Ah, maybe that's why I never used Rush in 0 but then was like "wait this is pretty good" in Kiwami
Isn't it literally "Blue" and "Red" heat system from older games, just visually different?
Like, I'd want to hear opinions of people who say it works differently
@@alexeyeliseev6322Here's a very simple way to explain them:
In every game with the blue and red heat system from older games, you can always Tiger Drop regardless of your heat.
In 0, Majima gets his own counter move for Thug style, but can only be used if you have 3 bars of heat, and consumes heat. That should be enough to understand why it sucks.
@@DarkkirbyKRPG Majima's counter is not Tiger Drop, it's a different move. Also, there is still a proto tiger drop Kiryu can use and it does not consume heat. As for Majima, he's got that knife move, dunno what to call it... stabby drop?
Greetings from Romania!
Yakuza 3 is by far the most underappreciated in terms of combat… the game pretty much forces you to strategize on how you should deal with the enemies and their blocking and not spam the same combo over and over again till the enemy is down
Yakuza 3 is peak.
@@MikeJr9284 LETS GOOO
100% agree fellow Romanian kyodai
3 combat is nothing like the rest of the serious for all the beat reasons. The sounds are super meaty. Plus when you get in bro, hands down one of the best feeling combats in the series. The best? Nah, unique and fun af? Yes sir
I think each combat system is representative of the entry's focus on its combat, so classifying the "best" style is dependent on what the player wants from a combat system.
Like A Dragon & Infinite Wealths are using a standard RPG system with a more ridiculous realistic view, IW being more about positionning and incorporating Brawler combat elements into the pre-existing RPG system.
Lost Judgment clearly had as a main idea "focused versatility". Each style can do a general thing, but players can choose how. Each styles have defensive, evasive and offensive maneuvers
Crane has Sky Dancer/great quickstep/Good crowd control & easy juggle access. Tiger has a Block Strike/Guard Roll/Charged finishers & EX Combo Snake has the guard parry/Quickstep attacks/EX Surrender
(Didn't have the DLC's so I can't talk about Kaito/Boxing style)
Yakuza 0/Kiwami had a segmented approach to styles. Brawler is somewhat well rounded, Rush was about evasive strikes, Beast was about raw damage and pure defense, Dragon was (or at least intended to be, we all know it turned into the Tiger Drop style) all about Heat Management.
Gaiden's two styles have a heavy focus on either Offense and Defense, Agent has defensive techniques more tailored towards long distance encounters, traps and Evasion. Dragon is more focused on all out Agression with charged triple finishers, extremely damaging Heat moves and the tiger drop.
Other Yakuza games were about variety in one style. With different character specializing into different playstyles. Each game also had its little quirks like bounding and 6-K2's focus on physics based interactions.
the best system is MY system, clearly
honestly, i wish more action/action rpg discussion contextualized itself within the larger meta genre and its development/techniques. very glad to see someone talking about it in this context.
Lost Judgment, my beloved. Given how often i hear solely mainline be talked about, I'm happy to hear the combat is recognized in the community.
Another thing to bring up with combat isn’t just the movesets but also the encounters and fights themselves, and how they balance with each other. To me, 6 is a game with a bad moveset but well designed boss fights that almost compensate for Kiryu not being very fun in that game
Greetings from Bulgaria, fellow balkaner kyodai!
Като Дракон Гайден
5, LJ, LAD:IW and K1 are my personal favorite but i love all the games combat, playing each one is an unique experience ❤
Yakuza k1, 3, 4, and lost judgment will always be my favorite due to the depth of there combos
I really Enjoyed every combat but out of all of them I think Yakuza 5 was my favorite
Considering how every character is strong in their own way what I loved about 5’s combat is that it’s more on the equal side of 0 and Ishin Kiwami
Lost Judgement, to me, has the most fluid and varied combat. Gaiden gave me agent, which is probably my overall favorite combat style, especially for the dragon engine.
I do love how much combat has changed and been experimented on since, and i loooove gaiden's combat especially, however i will firmly state that yakuza 2 still did it best way back nearly 20 years ago
I'm shocked to learn people didn't like Agent Style. I thought it was super fun.
Yooo
I think gaiden's isn't as polished as LJ but it's definitely a good combat and I think it does not deserve all the negativity surrounding it
I don’t necessarily want to do infinite combos, while it’s not perfect, LJ juggling does last a long time but the damage decreases the longer you keep it going, while in Gaiden there’s no damage decrease but it only lasts around 5 seconds.
Lost Judgement and Gaiden Dragon system are my favorite
Closely folowed to Yakuza 5
LJ still is the best for me atleast till this point (im still on kiwami 2), everything just flows and feels responsive compare to the others games i’ve played. its probably one of the games where i was encourge to switch style on every fight encounter like Ghost of Tsushima, where every styles just have their own uses plus the game rewards you for it.
For me, lost judgment is my favorite, mainly cause of juggling and such but within a sense none of the games have a bad combat system they all have a system that is meant to fit it's game
Edit: And from what i seen of gaiden, i probably will also like it but haven't played yet
Y5 Kiryu, Y4 Akiyama and LJ Yagami are my definite favorites. So much fun. But man, does it fell great to unlock Tiger Drop in Y3 and wreck people.
I'd wish there was a lot more freedom like Lost Judgment for Gaiden
My favorite combat systems in my opinion are Yakuza 0's, Yakuza kiwami, and Lost Judgement. Though if i did had to pick one, it would be Lost Judgement. It's not perfect I know, but the main thing I like about Lost Judgement's combo system besides the improved juggling I show it encourages the player to not stick to one style, and one of the most stylish combat systems in the franchise. Though I will say I wish they had given Kaito a third style, and that you didn't have press multiple buttons for the qtes.
First of all, great video
I want to share my personal opinion on the matter too since this is a topic that is really dear to me. I fell in love with this series mostly because of the action combat.
As a lover of Lost Judgement's combat I can honestly say I'm surprised when I hear people complain about Gaiden and Ishin Kiwami's combat systems. Honestly it feels to me like a lot of people are eager to jump on bandwagons and accept an opinion without really looking further into it. I fully agree that more combat styles isn't necessarily a good thing, for example I think that the boxing style in LJ is actually a detriment to the overall system (it was originally DLC in fact). Snake style is being slept on massively, it is super good in the right contexts and most importantly I think the fact that you can't switch to a specific style is a solid choice because it creates a specific flow of combat with the three styles buffing and playing into each other. Boxing is the odd one out and I seriously advise everyone to deactivate it, at least in their first playthrough.
Gaiden's two styles are really enough. I don't get why we would need another one and the people who complain about it should stop for a moment and really think about *why* they want another style... is it maybe because other games have had more than two? Is that really a good reason? I personally think that Gaiden's combat is overall weaker than LJ's but for a reason that I'll go into later.
Ishin Kiwami's combat is absolutely great. I really do not get how someone might think it is not. There is a really big issue with it, I agree, but it's something that can be easily ignored if wanted; the cards system. The troop card abilities can be insanely powerful and the buffs themselves are crazy. If you really really grind them out and gacha the best cards and level them up you'll be incredibly OP to the point that the combat loses all of its value. This is not something unique to Ishin Kiwami, Yakuza 0 could reach a similar conclusion with the legend styles, but luckily this is an issue that can be fixed completely by simply not engaging with the troop cards. Treat them as consumables or a difficulty option and the issue disappears. (Another issue I could add is the over reliance on weapon quality but that's kind of the design of the game being different than usual. For some it's cool to get new and improved weapons)
What really makes this a difficult discussion is the fact that combat quality isn't solely reliant on the system itself but also on the enemies you will face. What good is a perfect fighting system if the enemies are not fun to fight?
This can be seen with 0 and Kiwami 1. Arguably, Kiwami 1's combat is a simply improved version of 0 so why don't people claim it's the best one? Simple, because the boss fights in Kiwami 1 are generally sub par if not outright terrible with only a couple being really memorable.
Even more confusing is the fact that the overall quality of a game can influence its opinion on the combat. Again 0 vs Kiwami 1 comes to mind, since the latter's side content and story are considered worse than the former, reasonably so. Kiwami's fighting style can't shine in a game that people are not stoked to play.
Gaiden itself suffers from the simple fact there's no NG+ and legend difficulty available. I can't really fully explore this combat system if the game is too easy.
At one point in the video you talk about how we shouldn't put certain games on a pedestal and compare every other entry to them to ascertain whether they have a good combat system or not. I agree wholeheartedly with this statement but I feel it is equally as important to recognize that certain elements can be analized as being "objectively" better than others. Sure, the combat system in 3 works for its game's scope and needs but if I asked you or really anyone else which game's combat they would sooner want in a new game, would you choose 3? It's important to understand WHY 3's system is flawed and why LJ's is so good etc etc. Gaiden exists because the devs looked at LJ's combat, saw the good reception and realized what needed to be done. Accepting that there indeed are systems that are better than others is important otherwise there could be no improvement.
You cooked with the thumbnail Kyodai. When i was doing my yakuza 0 no upgrade run, i realised that the game's combat was not as perfect as i originally thought. Cough cough heat gear system. I disliked the idea of combo speeds increasing the higher the heat level was.
A thought I have on the inherent differences between Brawler and Turn-Based, is Brawler is more towards the skilled player, and Turn-Based to the thoughtful player. Now, skill and thought go into both (looking at you, no-damagers), but each lean into their "preferred" player.
A Brawler game can be no-damaged, whereas a Turn-Based can't, simply due to it being out of the player's control when the enemy hits. Brawlers need some skill outright to beat them (namely with Gaiden's Amon fight, his healing can seriously test your skill), but after a while, Turn-Based can become simply whittling away at a health bar, using moves over and over, using items to gain back MP. Turn-based counters the issue of 'whittle away the boss' with flashy moves, ones too ridiculous even for heat actions.
There's inherit good, inherit bad with each system, more initmate, you're-there-in-the-fight feeling with Brawlers, and the JRPG zaniness with turn-based.
Then comes along Kiryu in Infinite Wealth who gives the middle-finger to it all and goes into a Brawler, canonically so at times. (If you count the memory spheres with the Three Jimas as 'canon.')
I know this is a spinoff, but Kurohyou's combat is absolutely great in my opinion. There's a lot of styles, and you can feel the impact with each hit and the sfx adds to that. You can even make your own style in Kurohyou 2.
To me, the parry mechanic ruins the combat of Kurohyou 1 and 2, at least a bit. I say this as a guy who literally got parried by every enemy and boss in both Kurohyou 1 and 2, even when they were kneeled down in K1.
@@DarkkirbyKRPGI guess it encouraged me to learn how to counter as well. Plus, grabs are insanely strong in kurohyou 1 but I know it's not fun to abuse that all the time. I think in 2, enemies parry less I'm not sure
Beautifully put i think hard to find an objective answer the "best system" each game combat despite it flaws does it intends to well it not perfect but that nature of experimentation it fascinating to see as not many games fo that today
Also can do video like this talking about the music direction in the series and it changed over the last few entries
we strive so much in seeking perfection we often become blinded to the flaws of that which we deem perfect for the sake of putting that thing on a pedestal and often times perfection is imposible to achive truely which is to say every yakuza game can be someones favorite my favorites gameplay wise are gaiden 7/8 kiwami 1 and 0
I'm of the mindset that there is room for multiple "best" combat systems, all depending on what your personal preferences are on several factors.
Like, if you enjoy the Kiwami engine combat then take your pick - 5, 0, or K1, if you enjoy the dragon engine, LJ or Gaiden, and so on. This video is actually the first time I hear of people calling Gaiden disappointing, and it mystifies me. I personally loved it, just wish there was more of it (one of the best shortcomings a game could have!) but I still feel like I got my money's worth and had a great time. I'm not entirely sure where I'd rank it on my favorite games in the series, though I know my top 2 are 0 and LJ... I haven't finished IW yet, so we'll see if Gaiden or IW compete for third place (previously Kiwami 2).
I just feel that people see that the combat of lost Judgment is the herald of the best RGG combat system they made and anything that doesn’t match its style or goes beyond itself isn’t worth noting.
Though each games combat is different from it’s predecessor in one shape or form as though some games like yakuza 3-4 or yakuza 5-0 uses the same engine, they build upon new mechanics and strengthen the foundations of its predecessor’s combat style.
Great video as always. I really like your perspective on the subject. To me, the best combat systems are 0 and Lost Judgements. But it might be different for another player. Depends what you're looking for in the game, but also how well it matches the story and character.
On another note, since you're also a Tekken player, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on 8's story. I personally found it lacking. But maybe you picked up something I missed.
The best is Yakuza Kiwami 1. It does everything Y0 does but better, the encounter design is better and unlike Y0 it has Tiger Drop. Not to mention it has the best Amon encounter imo.
Nope. Combat is too disruptive, does not flow properly, nerfed heat system is lacking compared to 0, and stun-lock is too common. Too many annoying bosses, not because they are hard but because they stun too much. Also, normal is too easy and hard mode is too stale with high HP enemies and nerfed damage.
I just wish RGG brought back the agent style in infinite wealth
Thank you for the video, love your content!
Get Hideki Kamiya to make the next like a dragon spinoff
We'll have to wait until September before he can officially return to the industry post his exit from Platinum, but I would play the HELL out of that game 😁
@@gokudoni Screw any bit of realism I want Kiryu to be launching dudes 10 ft off the ground and doing dmc4 type air combos lol
Longest comment in the known universe ahead, beware.
The thing I would say as a fervent and devout Gaiden hater is that any new thing they tried to impliment to stop it from feeling like Judgment 3 fails on a conceptual level, at least for me. Agent style as a whole feels like an overly flashy gimmick, as it has no real options for crowd control outside gadget spam since the really wide-reaching moves are at the end of the combo, or locked behind extreme heat. Yakuza style, by contrast, had a lot of its uniqueness and utility from 6 and K2 taken away for the sake of prioritizing Agent style, and because of my previous thoughts, I can't help but feel like it was unjustly nerfed. Look just beneath the surface, and you'll realize just how many moves were taken away from it (not to mention the dropkick and heavy charge attack still being the terrible ones from K2).
The way I've found best when it comes to judging each game's combat is finding a way to decrease my attack as much as possible. Remove all sense of a power trip and judge it solely on this question: When doing basically no damage and defeating enemies very slowly, am I still having fun? For most of the games, that answer is yes.
In 0 and K1, the core system with style switching creates a very fun gameplay loop. Low damage gives me more time to try new strategies and combos.
In 3, the constant need to strategize makes the battles being so drawn out feel so satisfying. It's almost like that feeling you'd get from a turn based game, but in active combat.
In 1 and 6, every move has a specific utility and purpose, so finding their use in battle feels satisfying. At low damage, I'm more encouraged to see how all of my options fit into any given combat encounter.
In LJ, the moveset bloat results in a sort of joy knowing that at any given moment, I have a vast multitude of options for how I want to deal with enemies. The extra time given by low attack damage gives me ample opportunity to try more options than I would otherwise.
In Gaiden, I'm limited in both options and utility, as there's an obvious dominant strategy (constantly use Spider or juggle with drunk Yakuza until hitting extreme heat, then swap back to Agent, rinse repeat), with the only other alternative being to whittle down enemy health bars and pray they don't get random super armor and deny my already limited combos. The only joy I get from it is the power trip.
There's plenty more to be said about how enemy behavior factors into this, and that's where my biggest complaints with 6 and LJ lie, but I've said more than enough as is. I hope I come off as relatively justified in my complaints, obviously I don't care how a game feels as long as it feels good, but the sheer drop in my experience from LJ to Gaiden can't leave me feeling anything less than total disappointment. I hope if/when we get another brawler style game, that they take the lessons learned from Gaiden and iterate on the series in a more positive direction. More options with more reasons to use them, less options with multi-purpose utility, polishing previous ideas or something entirely new. Anything. I just want to see this series prove that it still has what it takes to do my favorite genre of game in a way that only it can.
In regard to dragon engine, Gaiden puts Kiwami 2 and 6 to shame.
In my opinion the yakuza infinite wealth combat is pretty damn nice. Probably the best jrpgive played
9:06 the heat orbs you know gokudoni you were talking about yakuza 6
I must be alone in thinking Gaiden is where the combat peaked. It felt like the full completion of Kiryu’s styles in the engine. What did people not like about it?
Also personally I’m not a fan of Yagami’s style and how weak he feels compared to Kiryu. Though I never got the boxing style
Kurohyou 2 wins no debate
as long as you're not in a group encounter
Gaiden has had my favorite combat
I’d rather have 2 really optimized fighting styles than 4 styles for the sake of 4 styles
OG Yakuza 2 fans, where ya at?
I find it hilarious that he said Lost Judgment's boxing style was barely a proof of concept when it's easily the strongest style in the game.
my favorite is Y5 Kiryu, part of why I own the games on PC is so that I can have the classic DoD style in the Kiryu Dragon Engine games
My favourite is definitely a toss up between Yakuza 5 or Gaiden. Individually and just purely 'for me' I enjoyed Tanimura's the most, especially when only viewing it in the context of Yakuza 4 and only Yakuza 4.
The experimentation in combat systems is great! This series' gameplay definitely wouldn't feel as interesting and new if every game was literally just a copy-paste of the previous one. Gaiden's combat definitely brings a lot of positive aspects that open up for improvement if RGG decides to go along with stuff like gadgets for styles (huge missed opportunity to make Serpent gadget usable outside of combat btw).
I do think the concept of multiple styles is a huge bonus for the combat and imo RGG shouldn't ever go back to just one, but I also don't want more than, let's say, 4 per character. I'd rather see them experiment and improve upon the styles in different ways rather than unnecessarily making an entirely new one, possibly at the expense of an old one.
The next step is air combos with Sugiura in Judgment 3.
Nice video, shorter than usual but still thought-provoking!
Hey there my Balkan aniki, this is slightly off topic but I was wondering if you had any ideas for future Gaiden games? I think an Akiyama game would be interesting and would make a lot of sense. Also, regarding combat, I am oddly a fan of the weapon centric Kiwami 2 combat (I know this is a fringe opinion.) Anyways, hope you have a good week, as always your videos continue to be extremely thought provoking and I really appreciate your content.
Thank you for the kind words! I'd love to see an Akiyama game, especially with the off-hand mention of Singapore in Infinite Wealth. Other than that, my other top contenders for a Gaiden would be Mine, Ryuji, Aizawa and Ukyo Tatsuya (also, agree on the weapon-based side in K2 being really fun)
@@gokudoni Wow, a Ryuji/Mine game would be amazing! I also think a Kurohyō style game with Shounen elements set when Kiryu and Nishiki are in highschool would be really interesting. That one cutscene from Zero really peaked my interest, no one ever seems to bring that idea up.
I personally think every combat are generally all amazing in every game, they are all great in their own right
only games with combat i dont really like the feel of are kiwami 2 and 7
LJ, Gaiden and 0 are the best
Combat wise I personally had the most fun with gaiden and kiwami 1
Greetings from Romania 🇷🇴
My favourite combat it yakuza ,,like a dragon "Gaiden it just so fun and somehow i liked more yakuza 3's combat because it actually challenges the player to change his style not just mash square but i can understand why some people hate it because BLOCK anyway can't wait for the next vid. Bud :))
I completely disagree with your points. Yes experimentation is needed, but it shouldn’t come at the cost of overall quality. Judgment was an experimental title but it directly improved the overall quality of DE combat and set a new standard for it, something that LJ did after Judgment.
Gaiden was an overall downgrade from the DE combat system that LJ established. It made changes that served nothing for the game. The Yakuza style lost so much of its utility from K2 and 6, along with having a slow ass combo speed. The juggling limit literally adds nothing to game but make its combat more limited. The agent style is pretty gimmicky and also limited by itself, certainly not enough to carry the combat. If Gaiden had kept the LJ juggling system, way less people would have complained, because although we’ve regressed to 2 styles, the overall standard and quality we expect from the combat is still left mostly untouched.
At least it was a side game right
Gaiden did 2 steps forward, but old problems, mainly hit detection, got worse making those two steps have much smaller relevancy.
But Uncle Ben, everyone knows the best combat was in Yakuza 4
i mean lowkey i think yakuza 4 has some of the best fighting styles in this series. akiyama and tanimura are serotonin incarnate
Maybe controversial but my favorite combat are kiwami 1, judgment and every playable character in yakuza5(excluding haruka of course)😅
I fully believe that Kiwami 1 is the best.
Kiwami 1 has Styles and incredible combos, you can do infinites and style switch mid combo.
Whilst LJ is incredible i really dont like the focus on juggling because its a bit too accesible or more so i dont think you canreally differentiate between a good and bad "juggler" also i unfortunatly dont really like juggling.
0 is similiar to K1 but unfortunately you cant style switch mid combo as easily and theres no time for godspeed.
5 is incredible but the weak bosses and being OP just makes it hard to replay also combos are very hard.
Gaiden is basically a heat action simulator and juggles are very inconsistent and sadly timed but i will admit that despite these flaws i still see people mastering it which i respect.
But i think it just depends on if your a Dragon Engine Enjoyer or a Kiwami Engine Enjoyer. If you prefer juggles and heat actions with stylish effects then LJ will problaby be your favorite, if you enjoy the more classic "crunch" to attacks and a focus on combos and infinites then K1 will be your favorite. And if you love wallbounding then maybe its 3 or 4. And if you want to "SHINEYA BOKE" and "IKUZO KORA" then you may just enjoy Kurohyou.
At the end of the day it depends on how you like your combos (or dont) and dont let anyone tell you whats the best, you can have fun with every combat in every game, heck even yakuza 3 has some incredible wallbounds and combos so find what fits you the best.
About Gaiden it’s pretty weird, I don’t really think feels worse than LJ but it’s more limiting, and is weirder since Gaiden is literally built off LJ. It’s just small things like the style switch speed being slower, but it’s still fast enough to not break the flow of combat. I kinda see what they were doing wanting Yakuza style to be hard hitting and slow while agent is the super fast style. I think a better tradeoff would’ve been to double the speed but nerf the damage in half. Gaiden also has this weird combo interruption thing happening when you walk and it does something, not sure if it’s because of the map but it didn’t really happen in LJ. It happened in games before LJ but who knows since LJ wasn’t in sotenbori.
Yakuza style is as slow as Kiryu in 1 which I found really weird, but the trailers and pre-release footage show all of that.
if we’re counting all Yakuza games as opposed to splitting up the turn-based and the action games, my personal top 5 goes
Lost Judgment
LAD: Gaiden
Infinite Wealth
Kiwami 2
Akiyama in 4/5
Nobody is saying LJ is perfect, but it is definitely more polished compared to Gaiden. You probably wont even read the rest of this comment but honestly This comes off like you're trying hard to defend against gaidens flaws yet the key point you're missing when comparing LJ to Gaiden isn't cause there's less styles or less juggle time. It's about is how the games systems are incomplete with itself Say what you want about snake and boxer style but they complement all 4 styles better when it comes to boss design cause they actually interact with all of Yagamis moves. However, with Gaiden's bosses, they tank all of Kiryu's hits where you can barely get a combo in while hardly any of the utility of Agent styles gadgets even work against them. You menrion extreme heat mode being an "evolution" yet Kiryu's agent style combo inconsistently launches enemies when it wants to and you cant even use his regular melee combos in it compared to LJ's extreme heat. Idek why you used bayonetta as an example because the systems in that game actually work with eachorher. It could've been an evolution if they spent more than some months developing the game, then the combat could've been more polished, but compared to LJ it isn't. THAT is the problem with it. You didn't even explain what makes it an evolution besides the enemies scale and saying "I liked it" lol
The combat should make sense in the context of the game.
Gaiden literally did not improve upon anything. If it did, what exactly?
Yakuza 5 honestly had the best combat for me next to 0 gaiden and kiwami 1
yakuza 5 is better then kiwami 2 fight me
Speaking of judgment has there been any reason regarding a new entry?
Lost Judgment is great and probably my favorite so far, but isn't perfect. When I replayed game on PC I found boxer style to be very lackluster, compared to other standard 3 styles that were polished af (even on PS4 at 30 fps), boxer felt very off and that was a paid DLC on release :\
Yeah 2 fighting styles actually made a lot of sense for Gaiden because think about it. The game has a 12 hour story with any side content being up to you on how much of it you want complete, if the game had 4 fighting styles there's no way most players will realistically be able to upgrade each fighting style to it's full potential.
Also I liked your approach to it because a lot this discussion is widely subjective. For example, I much rather deal with Y3's blocking than Y6/K2's ragdolling.
You can just cheese the six second juggle thing by dropping them before it happens and instantly rejuggle them. It just punishes the player for having fun. Really, I don't think there's a single thing that Gaiden does better than LJ combat wise. Agent is useless without spamming gadgets/entering EX-Heat and Yakuza is horribly slow somehow compared to Y6. Like another comment said, Agent feels like a gimmick to deal with the bigger enemy count.
Pretty much, all the juggle limit does is just pigeonhole players into using a select few moves before letting the enemy drop to the ground, and doing it all again. And really it’s inevitable that Gaiden’s gonna be compared to LJ anyway since it uses the exact same base except p much everything LJ did well they either didn’t do or made worse. I do still like Gaiden’s combat though even if it is essentially bootleg LJ lmaooooooo.
where are my yakuza 3 fans at
dunno about fans but the yakuza 3 enjoyer is here
I'm one of them I know it's not the best put it is a really good game if look over the flaws it has
I don't think there is any issue with a newer title being less ambitious. But gaiden was a downgrade from lost judgement. They simply removed too much
People who say Gaiden needed more styles are looking at the flaws of the combat and finding the wrong solution.
Agent is janky, undercooked, and unintuitive and Yakuza style is back to 6 speeds with no way to improve the speed. Gaiden enemies are super aggressive but there's no parry(despite him having one in literally every game) and Kiryu is sluggish which leads to stale and degenerate strategies being rewarded in favor of experimentation or style.
Yakuza style in particular is frustrating because it's not only slow but the moves it shares with Tiger are somehow worse, it still has the shitty K2 run attack instead of the 6 drop kick, and the hitboxes seem to lack verticality leading to juggles getting dropped due to Kiryu straight up whiffing
The juggle limit is a good idea in theory but 6 seconds is wayyyy too short and the lack of damage scaling is a bit of a problem
Mm.. i guess how i look at it as each person has their preference of "Best" combat. I feel Lost Judgment has the best. i can't exactly say why? i guess it.. feels Fresh? Gaiden is right behind it. Maybe i spent alot of time on LJ. Every game has its own combat. outside of Yakuza combat it's DMC5 it's so smooth like a babies butt.
I think a lot of fan discourse does end up losing the nuance of where combat systems can be improved. When people spend a long time learning game systems, they can end up being excessively defensive. LJ is still my favourite combat system in an RGG game, but there's always room for improvement, and I was more than satisfied with Gaiden clearly taking influences from LJ while being its own thing (and having its own unique flaws).
I also think at this point, including Infinite Wealth in the discussion is worth doing and proof why continuing to experiment is for the best. While real time and turn based combat is fundamentally very different, IW is one of the best implementations of real time/turn based hybrid combat I've ever seen.
For me it’s Lost Judgment, but the problem with that game is that there isn’t a place you can fight even skilled enemies and the bosses are too easy. Gaiden for me has literally the exact opposite problem (looking at you 11 health bars WITH A SWORD Shishido)
Me hating on yakuza turn based combat system meanwhile I play turn based games everyday on my phone
pre-dragon engine i would say 5 has the best combat. post dragon engine would be lost judgment though i loved agent style in gaiden
And that is why Yakuza Online has the best combat system
clearly the peak of combat is Yakuza Fury
5.
TRUE
No, lost judgment is my favorite game and thus it has the best combat, my opinion is objectively better than everyone else's /s
But seriously, while I do agree with the video, one of your points you listed for gaiden don't work for me.
Shortning juggle time just straight up made juggling less fun, especially since you can _still_ get infinite juggles easily, and speaking of juggles, i don't like how it's nearly impossible to pull them off on bosses without eating damage in Gaiden, the only time i'd be able to pull them off consistantly is if i was able to do a mortal reversal near a wall.
Other than that, i also didn't like Gaiden's hyper armor, it felt too unfair, especially with Gai Amon since he can tiger drop you even in the middle of a back combo, I found that lost judgment's solution of just having the enemy block your combo instead of hyper armor is better, you're not getting off super long damaging combos from a single dodge, but you're also not getting fucked over.
I agree, it seems to me that Gaiden took the Y3 route in that it is somewhat difficult to gather heat since it is more focused on the combat itself, the difference is that in Gaiden it improves this by making the Heat Actions do significant damage. I like this philosophy of depending less on Heat actions, I love Y0 but there comes a point where the fights become a display of Heat Actions and many "difficult" bosses are these walls of Super Armor where you have to figure out how to cheese with Heat actions . And one opinion I think that to take into account the combat you should also take into account the enemies if they are fun to fight, and for that reason I am not a big fan of Y5's combat simply because it has the most annoying enemy behavior in my opinion, all enemies block a lot, they all grab a lot, they are too frequent, they take TOO much time on the ground which I absolutely hate, some Heat Actions animation is too long (it's a problem with Akiyama and Shinada), many enemies in the coliseum They have Kiryu's move set which makes everyone feel too similar, etc, etc, I honestly prefer Y3's combat than Y5's.
You made some really good point here
As someone who’s huge into action games and ofc yakuza, gaiden was for sure a disappointment in terms of its combat system, not necessarily because of it having only two styles but mainly because style switching is so slow in that game, it makes making cool or flashy looking combos harder, the juggle system is effectively much worse because 6 hits and your opponents already on the ground making for extremely limited combos.
What this game DID do right in terms of combat was damage scaling, in LJ when you did a juggle your damage and heat actions would do shit for damage, a heat action would do 1 damage instead of its usual because of a juggle you were doing. In that way gaiden took one step forward but with my points it took two steps back. Hopefully for the next game with beat em up combat they’ll learn to use the strengths of both gaiden and LJ to use🙏
yakuza combat system tier of my own thought
S : lost judgment, Y5 (so enjoyable)
A : Y3, Y4 (great)
B: Y6, Kiwami (good, but need improvement)
C: judgment, Y0 (kind of boring or lack of variety)
D: Kiwami2, Gaiden, Kaito Files (serious problems, make me want to quit)
binary domain has the best combat who doesnt like cover based shooting YEAHHH!!!!
Lost judgement best combat. Gaiden is too inconsistent. 6 is weak but got impact. 5 is solid. 4 is rly good. 3, for me satisfying but lowkey drawn out. K2 idk don't like it. K1 rly good. 0 just rly rly good
Kiwami 1 combat is too disruptive, does not flow properly, nerfed heat system is lacking compared to 0, and stun-lock is too common. Too many annoying bosses, not because they are hard but because they stun too much. Also, normal is too easy and hard mode is too stale with high HP enemies and nerfed damage.