There are a lot of people taking issue with my “children are innocent” argument, countering that by the same logic I employ, that should then also apply to the adult Tuskens. That is, if the kids are innocent because they’re a product of generational conditioning, then the same can be said for the grown Tuskens-therefore I should consider them innocent as well. This, I think, intentionally ignores a few key factors: adults are much more fully developed than children and have a greater capacity to form their own ideas and think for themselves. If we liken this to our own society, it’s kind of like how sometimes you might have been raised to believe something that isn’t true, or extremely bad. Something you never thought twice about in your youth, but might second guess once you’ve gained some life experience People often defended slave ownership back in the day under the logic that it was seen as a normal part of society. Most people back then simply didn’t question it because it was so integrated into every day life. Yet we all recognize that slavery was wrong (hopefully) and that people who owned slaves as adults with the capacity to choose, were in the wrong for doing so. Where little Timmy might have been innocent of his father’s transgressions, Timmy’s dad was committing an evil act and needed to be stopped. If you were put into a position where you had to kill a serial killer, and then after the fact you learned he had a son who he had been raising to follow in his footsteps, would you kill that child too? If you answer yes to that question, I am no longer interested in discussing this further with you. You are wrong and you need to seek help.
@ No, it’s not. But they’re not comparable anyway, because Tuskens aren’t animals. I have no issue with the (painless) killing of animals to maintain the natural order of our ecosystem-because to not do so would destroy our planet-but sapient creatures is where we should all draw the line.
@@SheevTalks you're one of the very few normal people who talks about Star Wars on RUclips which is why I respect you. But as demonstrated by these comments these savages aren't willing to engage as civilized human beings. You're wasting your time and breathe by engaging with these people.
@@SheevTalksEven Anakin think they aren’t animals, they are **like** animals. He then uses very human words to define their men(warriors), and separately their civilians women and children. It’s rediculously evil on so many levels.
Anakin: Nooo I'm a monster I killed the women and the children D: BasedMoistreFarmer1488: Actually, if you'll look over here at the Tattooine crime statistic-
Do you think that post-empire the Star Wars equivalent of 1488 would be 2566? 25 being the famous words of the declaration of the new order[¹], and 66 being order 66. [¹] "In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society!"
As a moisture farmer myself I can tell that this perspective is coming from some core world elitist that has never lived a day near these savages, anakin was a hero
I don't mean to take your comment too seriously, but I really do think that is a likely perspective for a Tatooinian farmer to have. The fact that a Tatooninian farmer---or Anakin for that matter--might have that perspective does not mean that that perspective is morally correct. A character can be evil.
@@Svevsky "objective" literally just means there's a rubric, but you haven't identified the rubric you're using in this case. You've essentially said nothing.
I think you forget that Anakin's lightsaber was still blue. We learned in Acolyte that lightsabers turn red when you do dark side moves, so killing the Tusken Raiders was clearly *not* a dark side move.
Why wouldn't they? It takes a while for kids to learn restraint, evil is their default status, that's why you need school teachers and parents to wrangle them, so they don't start throwing stones at each other for fun. As a piece of evidence, Boba got bullied by tusken children, and those were supposed to be "the good ones", it makes sense the worse ones would have tortured Shmi.
I think it's a bit of a problem that we are making these comparisons at all. I like to make real world comparisons myself, but Tuskens are, eh, clearly not native Americans or protestors or whatever. Those comparisons only go so far.
Why aren't they ? It's heavily hinted and outright stated that Tuskens are indigenous to the planet and have been either been forced to live in inhospitable terrain or are killed by human incomers.@@iivin4233
@iivin4233 They are dirty desert goblins killing everyone to reclaim their ancestral home…. Oops I better stop that’s way too many real world comparisons.
@@iivin4233 Which is why we should be _irritated_ at Sheev for trying to make the comparison to Colonialism in the first place. He flat out said that he wasn't going to use supplementary material and only go by what the movies say. The movies never stated that the Tuskens were the only natives to Tatooine and everyone else is an interloping colonizer. And worse, those supplements also say that if the Tuskens _were_ the natives to the planet, they're all that remains of the civilization that _ruined_ Tatooine and turned it into a desert in the first place.
Yes it is understandable that anakin slaughters them cuz it’s his mom any of us who love our mom get the anger he felt however it does not make killing of the innocent justified at all. It can be understandable and morally wrong at the same time.
@@donovan4222 fun fact that I didn’t know until listening to Blowback S4: the ending credits dedicated to “brave Mujahideen fighters” in Rambo III isn’t real and never existed. The widely circulated image of the credits is fake and has circulated the Internet for so long that it’s basically a Mandela effect now as so many people believe that it was real and simply removed from the film after 9/11.
@@Remnicore Yeah it’s a meme but it’s funny because Rambo 3 is literally about Rambo going on a mission with the CIA in Afghanistan to help the Mujahideen fight the Soviets 🤣 American propaganda movies were never very subtle.
@@Remnicore Hum... I've done a bit of research on it and i'm not sure blowback got it right. There doesn't seem to be any proof it was a lie except for pointing at proofs it was real and saying it's doctored. The claim also needs to be understood better. the claim is that at some point, in some version of the movie, the "gallant people" was replaced by the "brave mujahideen fighters" It wasn't claimed that the dvd/vhs version had it, it wasn't claimed 9/11 had anything to do with it. It wasn't claimed that anyone watching the movie would see the "brave mujahideen" version. It wouldn't be the firt time a tv channel edited a movie, if that's a tv channel that did it. It wouldn't be the first time a country edited a movie, if that's a localised thing. There are many possibilities that would explain why we can't prove/disprove it even though it may be true. Anyway, if you got definitiv proof one way or another i'd be interested.
@ that’s pretty long-winded but, in my opinion, completely unnecessary. The claim stems from the doctored image. The doctored image is the only source for the claim, otherwise there is no claim that it was ever real. Without that doctored image being widely circulated online, there is no claim that it was ever a thing and no one would believe it. Since the only “proof” to support the claim that it’s real is a doctored image which is most definitely not real (because it’s doctored), then the case can be laid to rest. There’s no other scenario where we’d entertain something like this beyond that point exception for religion, so unless someone would follow it up with “I simply have faith that it was real in some version of the film” then we can move on and accept that it was never real.
“Oh, please, everyone's always on about the children. I already tried leaving them alive, but all they do is grow up under my rule or dedicate their pathetic lives to revenge. Usually both. Really, killing them is a kindness. I can retract that kindness if you wish. But THEN who's the villain?”
I love when Anakin encounters A’sherad Hett, a tucked Jedi in the comics. They loop back and the narrative forces Anakin to confront his sins in a meaningful way.
Yeah all true but Sheev has this demented resolve to ignore the superior works of the EU in favor of focusing on the repeated trash shoveled by Disney. I don't get why he'd exclude 1 because it came later and is a justification after the fact, then look at book of Boba Fett
@@dirkechoes1377 Um, he clearly doesn't like what Disney has made. But it's new and it's what people want to talk about. He also brought it up because it's something people are referencing, versus non-canon books from 20 years ago or whatever.
Knights of the Old Republic had an interesting take on the tuskan raiders that "humanized" them without shying away from the starkness and brutality of their culture.
Those Tuskens were great. “Thanks for the help new friends! You’re welcome here any time! If you look in our baskets the entire village will try to kill you!”
That species issue is definitely one that always bothers me in sci fi. I remember playing Mass Effect Andromeda(the bad one in the series) and walking through this museum area set up to describe the different alien cultures. Each one had a recorded speech about their characteristics, and when you got to humans ours was essentially "we have a lot of different ideas and diverse cultures." Like in the universe of ME humans are apparently the only species that don't have a completely homogeneous culture where everyone behaves the exact same way. Only Andromeda was stupid enough to specifically draw attention to it but once you notice it's definitely present in the previous games.
Mordin literally mentions it explicitly in his loyalty mission, in ME2. Humans have a greater range of genetic diversity, which is why they're being heavily targeted by reapers, and useful in illegal experiments.
@@Sousabird That may be true but it still feels like an excuse for the writers to oversimplify all the other races and make them more homogenous for storytelling sake. Theres no reason other species couldn’t be as diverse, or more diverse, than humans…and doing that might actually be an interesting subversion of sci fi alien tropes.
It's definitely a clear sign of lazy writing. Having to give members of a species different personalities and motives is too much work for some writers.
You can arguably justify it more in ME; humans are young. They only recently established a unified world government. Compare that to many of the other races that have been space-fairing and united for thousands of years. I imagine that in several thousand more years, humans will be far more homogenous, and differences between us will be more like people on different colonies have arguments, instead of people of different cultures or religions are warring.
Putting aside the morality of Anakin's actions. I can see Padmé letting it slide and forgiving him. She already clearly likes Anakin, and she liked Smee. Despite her characterization, she's a human being with biases and double standards. And we don't know how prejudiced she may be towards the Tuskens.
You might already know this, but the specific trope you're talking about at 10:41 is called the Planet of Hats. Which is, basically as you said, defining an entire species or race by a single trial and/or stereotype. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a neat video on it.
Worst. Trope. EVER. It makes the worlds/universe feel so small and stunted! I want to awed by the scope of things, not rolling my eyes at the Everyone Is The Same On This Planet for the ten thousandth time
Slaughters the village like animals. Only after going on a fascist rant while they rolled around on the grass. Which only happened after she told him his creepy sex stare makes her uncomfortable. Yeah, she should want nothing to do with this guy.
I always was under the understanding that Anakin experienced a moment of darkness resolving to kill the Tusken Raiders after the death of his mother. His rant to Padme is the grief and anguish from succumbing to that darkness for a moment despite being a Jedi, someone who he perceives to be above such base anger. It's likely acceptible to draw your sword in defense and slay if necessary.
It wasn't defense, it was revenge. "I slaughtered them like animals," are the exact words he used. It was an entire village he slaughtered. That's a lot of "moments" of succumbing to the darkness, as you put it.
@EzaleaGraves that is my point. Anakin knew what he did was terrible and that he let his emotions get the better of him, something he believes a Jedi would never do.
@@otterfire4712 Indeed, and that is why Sheev didn't think he even needed to address the point in his original video--OBVIOUSLY it was bad, the movie tells us as much.
What Anakin did was understandable because his grief and rage got the better of him but the films never treated what he did as a good thing at best it wanted us to feel sorry for him because he hates himself for losing control.
@skyslasher2297 Yea, but I do think there were ways where the details of the story could have been changed to still facilitate that. For example, if we were told Tuskens were monsters, causing havoc and devastation and the Hutts didn't do anything but protect their own stretch of territory; I can see Anakin justifying why he eradicated them beyond just the grief of his mother. Because in his mind, threats like this should not exist if they can harm others.
Sadly he came away that he should solve all his problems via killing and letting your emotions run rampant and entrusting your very being to vague promises.
@@Avarn388 Does that really change much? Him justifying it in his head doesn't change that he was wrong and what he did was horrible. Also the movies clearly show that he does not think that way, because he regrets it.
@@Avarn388 We weren't told though Tuskens were monsters and that Hutts are anything but squatting slavers in their personal yachts, we were literally shown this to be the case. I don't understand how the uploader or audiences can miss this. Oh but not all of them... problem with that is you're basically just writing fanfiction by that point trying to "read between the lines" like that.
You argue for killing the Tuskens to defend the movie. I argue for killing the Tuskens because Hunter told me, "If it's hostile, you kill it." We are not the same.
Its almost as if these American Indian-Bedouin Berber allegories are very poorly thought out and thus quite literally can be grouped under a broad umbrella because George and other creators show very little if any tribal differences between the various groups of Tusken.
Alright. I'm gonna have to do it. I gotta deconstruct the premise that this is a "character assassination" of Padme for comforting Anakin. You premise this on the idea that Padme "is falling in love" with this person and she would NEVER be able to stomach what Anakin did. Which I would wholeheartedly agree with. But that's the problem. She wasn't *in the process of falling in love* she had *already fallen in love* back on Naboo. The movie spends a great deal of time there, and thanks to the very wishy washy amount of time that all star wars movies take place in, we could just as safely assume they were on Naboo for 3-4 months as 1-3 weeks. And just because Padme spends a lot of time on Naboo professing that she does NOT love Anakin it's pretty blatantly telegraphed that she's not trying to convince him (and she would be smart enough to know she couldn't) but that she's trying to convince HERSELF. You can take umbrage with the love story, and it's beats, and the characters age difference (but honestly a 5 year age gap isn't that dramatic once they're adults) all you want and that's fine. But you can't say that Padme wouldn't comfort the person that, in her own words mind you, she truly deeply loves. She doesn't comfort him to go against her character, it *builds* her into a more complex character than simply "smart politico with unbending moral values" she is flawed in the same exact way Anakin Skywalker is. She loves too much, too completely. And she is showing that she's willing to go against her moral beliefs for whom she loves. And that would ultimately be her demise as well in Episode 3 where she finally does stand up and say "Anakin this is too far" but it was too little too late. She's literally the equivalent of an enabler. C'mon now.
I'd like to add since that comment was super long and didn't want to make it longer, that I do very much like Sheevs content and while I enjoy the 1-3 hour long essays, I would also appreciate more of these 10-30 minute interludes of content as well!
Also, the only thing Padme knows about the Tuskens is that they kidnapped, tortured and murdered Anakin's completely innocent mother and maimed and/or killed most of the party that attempted to rescue her.
@@FriendlyDarkwraith and then the love of her life came back and said m, emotionally, that he brought some form of justice upon them. And maybe a politician would be able to see that in a lawless land like the Junland wastes a vigilante would be necessary to exact justice. But I don't want to delve too deep into Sheevs "kids are inherently innocent" spiel here because that's true. They are. But that doesn't mean that the sins of the father cannot be wrought upon the son. A principle I'd discuss with him given the chance.
Ok, so... Even if any of you find genocide of local people morally right... It still doesn't change a fact the point is how Anakin despises himself for doing so. His moral compas broke and he knows as a Jedi he needs to be better. I think the point Lucas tried to make was: Padme is the one who can see the goodness in people like Luke does in Return of the Jedi. It is harder for me to find other Tuskens innocent. It wasn't just Shmi who was killed. There were 26 people killed or tortured and killed if we believe what Cliegg Lars said. Anakin killed them because of his mother's death but it wasn't an incident where those people took just one person. If Anakin didn't kill them all they would attack another settlement and another... If the kids could survive they would despise the "invaders" even more leading to more bloodshed. So what I'm saying is; Anakin slaughtering little kids might be a good thing... from really depressing point of view. We have Anakin trying to live up to his dreams of being a hero to the galaxy... and when finally he is on the mission on his own with the promise he will save everyone... He is confronted with the idea that to save Moister Farmers he needs to do horrible things. Fascinating idea I wish was told in much better film.
it's almost like it can both be a good thing in the grand scheme of thing and a legitimate reason for grievances and self-deprecation. Nuance is hard for some
Honestly this is why I think it was the correct choice, not a morally good one, but the correct one. It all comes down to aftermath and what would happen. They are raiders plain and simple, yes they had innocents, but those innocents were raised by raiders to make more raiders, it's a vicious cycle unless you pull it up by the roots. It's not that "this is the only thing they're capable of", but rather "leaving them alive would lead to even more innocent deaths". At what point do innocent losses become unacceptable?
@@AtomicRobloxProductions Ironically the whole decision was pretty pointless considering Tusken Raiders still exist in the movies happening after in plenty enough numbers to be a problem to people living on Tattooine.
I feel like the whole point of this scene was entirely supposed to be "This is the beginning of Anakin's fall." Like, this is the first thing we see him do that is pretty unjustifiable, while still being understandable due to his emotional state. That's like.... the whole point.
I dont think its a good practice to excesively pre-emptively argue with anticipated criticisms. It makes you basically argue with ghosts for a large portion of the video
@Funky_Player2 Show me more of these "many people" who thought Anakin (who was obviously in a blacked out rage state and not thinking clearly or having the right idea as to what was going on) was in the right to choke Padme.
I mean yeah. She was trying to defend a failed government and her actions would turn her traitor to the *democratically elected* Empire. She had it coming
1. Book of Boba Fett is disney canon. Its got nothing to do with attack of the clones. Its also an awful and poorly made corporate product made almost exclsuively to bait Mandalorian subscrubers to keep up their subscriptions, so I'm not sure why you'd want to consider it. 2. Assuming that everyone talking about tuskens is lying and in bad faith is also a bad faith argument. All that gets you is stupid circular discussions. 3. Tuskens in lucas canon are awful. Consistently. If they had some nuance its never mentioned. Lars could be correct. Why assume hes just lying? 4. When Ben and Luke investigate the destroyed Jawa trawler Ben rejects Luke's assumption not on a moral argument. He doesnt defend Tusken morals and say they wouldn't do it. He points to the accuracy of the blaster shots and says they couldn't have done it. He also previously saves Luke from an unprovoked violent assault as well. 5. In every Lucas film Tuskens are consistently awful. Theyre not people. Theyre aliens. Would you really extend the same courtesy to the aliens in Alien and leave the children alone?
Xenomorphs and Tuskens are not really comparable. The Tusken in lucas canon are presented as a simple tribe culture hostile to any outsider - usually also quite sadistic towards them - but still as people. Alien makes a pretty big point out of how the Xenomorphs are predatory animals that just happen to be amazing at hunting their prey. The Tusken are referred to as sand *people* by Obi Wan in Ep4 after all. The only time they're reffered to Animals is by Anakin who is stil pissed over them killing his mother. If someone killed your grandma in a DUI you'd say something similair about the driver, but that doesn't mean humans suddenly aren't people anymore. Thats your only really weak point though.
I don't see a problem with the very first comment you show. They are literally shown to be nothing more than hostile kidnappers who torture people to death. According to the movies which you insist on only using they are just that
This lmao. The only thing in the movies we see of tuskans is that they screech like morons and that they beat people and torture and kill people. Literally nothing redeemable is ever shown about them. Hell, Jawas may be thieves but at least they know how to mend technology and shit.
When Anakin and Padme are sneaking around the Geonosian hive, some resting workers are awakened by their trespassing and try to apprehend them. Anakin literally just cuts them down, they aren’t even armed. Literally nobody talks about this tho. Nonhumans are just not people to the rest of the galaxy. Smh.
It's kind a theme in Star Wars, makes sense given that A New Hope was made in response to the Vietnam war, I guess for the original movie it was justifable since they're just randoms and possiblity not even a tribe, it's at odds with later Star Wars media which expends on literally everyone except for the Tuskens and Jawas because they were antagonists to the Skywalkers, really odd
@@billjacobs521 I rest my case. It was the core worlds who where responsible for the mass expansion and often the ones who oppressed the natives of the various existing worlds as they expand and in many cases such as Tatooine when they realized there was no minerals to mine they simply left the settlers there to dry with no support.
@Lobsterwithinternet when I said "core world" I should have said ritch wealthy worlds like those in the core and inner rim (and sometimes middle rim) and the various exploitative corporations that bring wealth to them
12:11 Another thing about this is that black absorbs heat, whereas light colors (white, beige) reflect it. Lmao. And they do not seem to be set up to how the Bedouins in real life do wear black in desert, which are only a minority of peoples there anyway.
I think anakin cutting off both dookus hands in ep3 is actually a really great demonstration of how insanely slippery acting out of anger can be. He had beaten dooku and gotten revenge for his own hand, then he takes dookus other because he can.
@basedbrit4206 and when anakin lost his hand he couldn't have used force choke or any other moves or was he just paralysised by shock. Anakin had won already. He decided to go fuether
"That's not how species works." Except for the Orcs in Tolkien's version of Lord of the Rings, which is different from Rings of Power's version of Middle-Earth. I mean, I'm pretty sure if Anakin just took out the men the women and children living in a barren, inhospitable desert wasteland would have just ceased to be slower and with more suffering with so many of the workers that provide resources for survival gone for good. It's not like he could just let the men live when he didn't know which of them did it, he had to take them all out to be sure he got them and it was a small tribe and he couldn't just not get revenge, so it was a necessary evil, but an evil that pushes him further towards the dark side nonetheless especially with the way he justified it to himself. I guess he should have come up with a way to get the women and kids to somewhere else or something, but it was a necessary stepping stone towards his ascension to villainy. It's not like it's always morally wrong to unalive children, if you're stopping their suffering or if they're shooting at you or about to set off a self end vest. You can even put kids in prison, that's literally what juvenile detention centres are, even 10 year olds go there for stealing candy bars or unaliving their infant brother (actually really happened once), even then even 8 year olds have unalived babies before. Children are not innocent, they are extremely vicious and cold-blooded, I'm sure even pro unalive penalty people think under 18 unalivers should be given lenient prison sentences not ending but still...
Counterpoint regarding Padmes love for anakin: She likely heard stories about Tuskens from Anakin before the massacre of the tuskens. She may simply have not cared. Shes a Human, from a literal elected noble class, so, she probably agrees with anis narrative.
I don't like to be mean about it because I like that people enjoy the prequel films. Even though I don't really like them I would rather discuss star wars (or hang out in general) with prequel enjoyers than OT purists. That being said I think prequel fans often times go through a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why the movies are good and instead of just enjoying them despite being flawed.
Yes, it's very annoying. You have PT fanboys trying to justify every awkward, stilted line of dialogue, and then you have PT haters claiming literally nothing is good about them. Like, geez, the movies are solidly mid--they have good parts, but they are all deeply flawed.
@@minestar2247 I don't think I've ever actually run into a sequel fan in the wild. As far as I've seen, they only exist as Star wars RUclipsrs. If they do actually exist then they would probably have to do the most incredible display of mental acrobatics of all. I doubt we would see much common ground, whereas me (OT fanboy) and a prequel fanboy could probably find a lot to agree on. Also, I don't think it was fans that ruined the finale. I think Disney did that themselves.
@@person042 not exactly, it was "fan" pressure on disney that led them to ruin ROSw, because of the backlash againt the great last jedi, which is why they tried to "fix" it and failed horribly and yeah, the main point of agreement between prequel fans and ot fans is mostly their veneration of the past, not accepting anything newer because of reasons
@@minestar2247 Fan pressure or not it's up to Disney to make a good movie and they didn't, you can't blame fans for that. Also you seem to be implying that everything was fine with the sequels until the end and that's just not true. The force awakens is one of the most soulless retreads ever lacking any "new ideas" that you claim the series needed. I'm guessing you like the last Jedi and I don't feel like arguing about that movie anymore so I'll just say clearly that movie had a very visceral reaction from a large portion (and I'd claim the majority) of fans. If they didn't want to feel fan pressure then they shouldn't have gone out of their way to upset them. Fans aren't obligated to accept ideas just because they are "new" if they think they are bad which clearly they do. What you dismissively call "reasons" I would call valid.
My problem is the logical conclusion of any choice. Anakin kills only the people who tortured and killed his mom: First, the others try to defend them forcing Anakin to fight off as many people as possible. He flees, leaving as many alive as possible. The others seek revenge and can't find him, so they slaughter more innocent people on the warpath. Anakin kills only the men: All the hunters are dead, the women and children die of famine Anakin kills the men and women but not the children: The children die a slow painful death of starvation. So like, it's unironically DBZA Freeza. "Really, killing them is a kindness. I can retract that kindness if you wish."
I think it would have been much more compelling if Anakin instead killed every single one of the tusken’s warriors rather than the entire tribe. I get that him slaughtering all of them, particularly the innocent women and children, is supposed to start his descent to the dark side, but it feels like they’re accelerating the descent instead of doing it in increments. Him killing the warriors to the last man makes it morally questionable but not outright morally abhorrent. It would be understandable since the tuskens tortured and killed his mother, so him killing every last warrior removes their ability to do it to other innocent people but also spares the innocents that they themselves have.
@djdeadbeat4380 Exactly. And then you could later build on that. Like if this event was what led Anakin to realize that as Jedi shouldn't they do everything in their power to save people? That the bureaucratic red tape shouldn't get in the way? Frame it based on what he's gone through in life and then ratchet that up with his vision of Padme dying. Because when you have dark arcs, negative change arcs over a long period, you want to incrementally showcase those dark moments. Walter White from Breaking Bad is an excellent example, given everything he did do was for his family but it became about himself at the end.
Yeah, but counterpoint: the dark side is just all the chaos gods, and khorne doesn't really care about from where the blood flows. It's a dark side moment, and starwars doesn't seem to be very pro-nuance
It's dumb because Lucas doesn't even understand his setting or characters. Vader as portrayed in the originals isn't going around killing children or especially, younglings, I don't care what he's saving. Or even more insane killing random people on that planet to "draw Obi-Wan" out. He has a certain honor, even if the escalation of the Empire is leading to the annihilation of entire planets to enforce order on the galaxy.
Agreed, and that also fixes the issue of padme not looking at him as human scum in the aftermath. Perhaps during the battle of geonosis we could see him getting more bloodlusted.
As a victim of violence, abuse and bullying throughout all my childhood and youth, I don't know anything more vile and evil but children. I hardly think children are innocent. The only thing I can see in their favor however is that they probably don't know better. That's where education should step in.
I've also never entirely understood the leniency people have for terrible children. The "they don't know any better"stance is obviously true when they're like... toddlers? But I find myself so confused when people continue extending this philosophy to cruel middle schoolers or whatever. The young and cruel more often than not grow up into identically cruel adults, but no one affords terrible adults any leniency. People are sympathetic when children come from bad backgrounds, but those same bad backgrounds don't just go away for adults. People have a kind of implicit expectation that some time before you hit 18 that you're supposed to just learn morality and slot yourself into functioning society. I guess it happens for a lucky few? But relentless bullies and animal torturers at 10 years old don't often grow into upstanding adults. At what age can true moral responsibility fairly begin?
To an extent Anakin was always Darth Vader, we just didn't care because the republic were the "good guys." He was 9 years old when he blew up a trade federation mothership with all hands aboard. And then that behavior was encouraged, against acceptable targets. Is it any surprise that he turned out the way he did?
The Tuscan Raiders shot at children in the first movie they didn't use blasters they had musket and they were trying to take back their freedom. It still doesn't make them good characters. They were always nomadic slave owners. Do you wanna know the source every Star Wars expanded universe book ever
I’m sorry did you miss the massive disclaimer he has on just about every video that says he considers what’s in that movie and the movies that came before? He explicitly says that. Also said books aren’t technically canon anymore.
So if you’re against Anakin killing Tuskens, does this mean you’re vegan? If not, how do you reconcile this with paying for the killing of innocent animals to eat their bodies?
@@krraika1847 the sequel fans only started being full of hate because of the bullying of prequel fans, which was because of the bullying of the original trilogy fans, despite 7 and 8 being superior to the prequels, and so the cycle of hate will continue
@@minestar2247 Eh, only partially true. I've seen sequel fans completely disregard and attack others and their arguments while the movies were being released. Even Retroblasting in his video, Star Wars: The Sequel Trilogy -- "Canon is Overrated," mentioned he experienced the same thing while the prequels were being released.
This is moral cowardice. The same moral cowardice shown by so many "Superheroes" who spare villains because of some code against killing. Then those same villains end up escaping and destroying more innocent lives. A truly good man would live with whatever guilt they have from such killing so he could protect the innocent.
I wouldn't call a child "innocent" if they did engage in torturing Shmi to death. I would, however, say a child who doesn't know any better should be given a greater amount of mercy than an adult who should know right from wrong. If someone doesn't "know what they do," they still did something bad, they're just much more sympathetic than someone who knew better. Still, I agree, the narrative doesn't give any indication the children had anything to do with Shmi's torture, so they would be innocent in this situation anyway. I think that the argument the children DID engage in anything is still bad, I just wanted to correct what seems to be a flawed worldview on your perspective. In terms of a real life example, there was a kid who killed his mom cause she wouldn't buy him a game, and even if it could be argued he doesn't deserve the same punishment as an adult who would do that, he's still guilty.
I don't think we're talking about, like, "innocent in their souls", but innocent in relation to accountability for their actions. Yes, children in violent contexts, taught to act violently, can be very purposeful in their use of violence. There is a psychological "loss of innocence", but if we're talking accountability, they are "innocent". An adult can commit a crime, while a child is a victim of abuse/neglect.
@@CamiloFHSC I don't really call a flawed mindset that doesn't know better ]'innocent," I just call it more sympathetic: deserving of some form of discipline, even light discipline. I only really use "innocent" to describe "free of evil," but ignorant evils are very common, even among adults. Very few people are "innocent," but "innocent of X, Y, Z" or "guilty, but didn't know better" are very common. I don't really use "innocent" in regards to court jargain, I use it more broadly. And I do think there are some situations in which children can be held accountable for their actions, if rare.
@@CamiloFHSCchildren can commit crimes as well. Plenty of teenagers have killed people and been tried as adults with adult punishments because it was proven that the killings were intentional.
It's kind of funny: one of the oldest complaints levelled against the prequels was that they don't make sense...except they do. I remember one documentary where someone said something to the effect of "yea, audiences may not like that Darth Vader started out as a whiny teenager...but that's exactly the kind of person who would be vulnerable to becoming a villain." It's been years, so it wasn't quite that, but I believe that provides the gist. If you look At Anakin's story, he starts out as a slave without a father, gets taken from his mother, and becomes more powerful than he ever imagined over a decade...but at his core, he still wants more. He's also befriended by one humble old man who always tells him how much potential he has and the wisdom in following his instincts and desires wherever they lead. During the second movie, he falls in love, but then finds out his mother was taken by people he likely feared as a child. He finds her, she perishes in his arms due to wounds inflicted by these people, and he goes ballistic, wiping them out. He's become a powerful walking weapon that has far less than the usual Jedi standard when it comes to self-control, and he now has an obsession with protecting the one's he loves (most especially the woman he pined for over a decade) from harm. By the next movie, his love for his now wife is worn thin after three years of war and worry, he finds out he's about to become a father and their *secret marriage* will blow up in their faces, getting him kicked out of the only life he's known since slavery and having who-knows-what type of effect on her political career. He's also frustrated with those they work with as he *thinks* they disrespect him and hold him back, even though he's fought many battles and slew the leader of the opposition...though he himself knew that doing so when the man was on his knees and defeated was too far. On top of that he starts having nightmares that he takes as visions that he'll lose her the same way he lost his mother. He turns to his elderly friend for help, and his friend offers to fix all his problems and give him the power to save those he cares for...provided he put himself under that friend's tutelage and authority, as well as handing everyone else from his fellow knights to the people they protect into that friends power to do with them (or do away with them) as he sees fit. Where once he wiped out innocents in a blind rage, he then does so with cold precision at the temple, yet with no enjoyment. Next his friend sends him to deal with the ones he blames so many of his problems on, and this time, he enjoys every minute of it. In his next battle with his own master and "brother", there is no hesitation: he's completely gone over to the dark side, and in the end, losing his limbs and being debilitated in his suit was probably a mercy for the galaxy at large. Every step in that process makes sense. You don't need to agree or justify those decisions in order to see how they make sense to his character or how he went from an idealistic warrior monk to an evil space wizard. Also, as Vader Reviews once noted regarding the "bad" flirting dialog in Episode 2 and 3, the kid was stuck with a bunch of monks for ten years and had probably never been on a date, then spent most of his marriage at the front lines away from her. That's not exactly the recipe for Don Juan levels of charisma when chatting with the woman you've had feelings for since you were a child.
Appreciate you mentioned the shield part that you missed in AOTC. In my comment on the other video I actually addressed how the point of it is to stop sudden danger. Which fits with our understanding of how Jedi’s powers to sense danger ahead of time works. Can do more explaining if needed.
In defense of Padme's character in this scene: do we know if she has any idea who or what the Tuskens even are? She's never seen one, and literally all she knows about them is exactly what she's been told by Cliegg and Owen, which is that they've kidnapped and tortured an innocent woman for no reason. She doesn't have a super vested reason to believe they're nothing more than just a semi-intelligent pack-living alien species. A species that's certainly "above" a common animal but not necessarily a truly sapient "people" with language and culture. She can tell enough that Anakin was so upset to know that it was wrong. But in the actual moment where he was freaking out emotionally, and she was working with fairly limited information, I don't think it's unrealistic for her to comfort him. She doesn't outwardly justify his actions or anything, she just tries to calm him down.
Source. One could argue from the Book of Boba that the children participated in it. As they did it to Boba. I think a pretty decent argument can be made. especially since there are different Tusken tribes and some of them known to be rather barbaric than noble. In the same way that Some Native american tribes were quite savage and brutal(even before the settlers arrived) whilst others were friendly and honorable
I can't get behind the Native American analogy, I know you mean well, but reading that makes me wonder a little. What savage acts have they done? Unless, you wouldn't equate tribal wars among Europeans as savage, if tribal wars are your answer, but I must know at least.
As you yourself point out: Different tribes can behave differently. A group of children from an entirely different tribe acting brutally decades later doesn't really give us any details about what the children that Anakin massacred might or might not have done.
It actually doesn't matter whatsoever. A kid could do heinous misdeeds and it wouldn't justify killing them. They still wouldn't be culpable because they are beholden to what the adults in their life instruct them to do. They have no agency.
@@Meh.357 What can't you get about it? Some tribes were known to be extremely brutal to each other and to the settlers while others were generally peaceful. I feel like the "what savage acts have they done" is just kind of being willfully ignorant since some of the terrible torturous things that native americans have done to settlers as well as other tribes is well documented.
@@Meh.357Scalping was a Native practice, and the Comanche severed the tendons in the ankles of prisoners (maybe just women) and dumped them in the wilderness.
I feel like 2 completely seperate things are being argued here. Sheev argues: Is it morally justified for Anakin to murder an entire village (involving innocents), if some of it's inhabitants are responible for torturing his mother (and many others) to death? Comments argue: Would the extinction of the Tusken race be beneficial to the "more civilised" society from a practical standpoint? To answer the first question: No, it's not. Anakin wanted revenge beyond anything and was guided by his hatred. Potentially protecting future victims was never on his mind. Even then, that doesn't justify killing the kids. It's literally what the video is about, so I don't feel the need to talk any further about this one. To answer the second question: If we were to throw all ethics out of the window, then yes. If Tusken raiders ceased to exist, the lives of other Tatooine people would improve (or at least we have no reason to believe otherwise). People are using this point as justification for Anakin's actions, but there is a lot of problems with this. It often hinges on the idea that "Tuskens are inferior, and we (as a more advanced race) should put our interests before theirs". First of all, let's answer the question: Are they actually closer to wild animals rather than human beings? From what we've been shown in the movies, not really. They are pretty primitive, sure, but they do show signs of communication and culture. That would make them most akin to humans from only a few thousand years ago, and thus sentient. If you think that they cannot be considered as such because of their actions, I would like to remind you that NOTHING they ever did goes beyond human cruelty. If you want to somehow justify Tusken genocide, you would at the very least need to make the case that "Their entire civilisation is so savage, that it's for the greater good to kill them all", which is something we don't have enough context to determine. As far as we know, they might just consider other species as invaders of their homeland (something Sheev actually mentions in the video). Additionally, since we never see them being violent towards each other, there is no reason to even believe that they are culturally conditioned to act this way (despite the fact that many just assume this to be the case). Personally, I would say Tusken people feel justified to do whatever they want to whom they see as a foreign threat. As a civilisation thousands of years ahead of them, we should be the ones better than this. You might say I'm pulling this out of my ass, but so would be saying the opposite considering how little we actually know. I find deeper speculation based on not very well thought out worldbuilding to be pointless, so there isn't much more to say here. But all of this is neither here nor there. Not a single one of you could convince me that Anakin would consider these factors. Even IF we were to assume killing the Tuskens was the right thing to do, his intents were that of revenge for his mother. It still wouldn't be a moral justification of his actions, and therefore irrelevant to the topic of the video.
7:38 to be fair, the language of a scene with Admiral Holdo and Poe in TLJ was meant to convey that he is reckless and foolish while she is clever and wise, but I don’t think many people took that seriously
I guess Anakin WAS right about chilling the younglings. I mean, look at the unstoppable violence the Jedi order has used across the galaxy. Look at how many Geonosians they literally chopped to pieces, while on their own planet, only to push further the interests of their openly unfair and corrupt republic. And those Jedi are taught, since they are babies, that they can just go around using their superpowers to enforce their will so long as it doesn't contradict their religion (and most especially if it also aligns with the will of the republic). What hope did those children have to ever come up better than the adult Jedi? I mean we meet several of them after the fall of the Jedi, and they still go about cutting people to pieces if it serves their personal interest- it's clearly an inherently violent culture; you're basically saving them from themselves by exterminating them when they are small.
Disclamer: *This is my humble opinion* Honestly I'd of understood if Anakin only killed the Tuskens involved with Shmi's torture and the ones attacking him (I'm not at all saying it would have been the best course of action nor the moral high road, just that I could see why he did what he did). But yeah killing literally all of them even those uninvolved was pretty messed up.
@@jasperzanovich2504 No it isn't. Complacency is an issue in its own right, but only an idiot would actually argue that it makes them just as guilty as the actual perpetrator(s).
IIRC, and it's still a bit flimsy, Boba killing the beast out in the desert wasn't the whole reason the tribe accepted him. He could have let the creature kill the kid (one of his tormentors), but he didn't. He freed himself but didn't retaliate, and he also protected one of the tribes most vulnerable despite the pain the tribe put him through. For lack of a better way to say it, Boba was no longer "one of the colonizers". Just another man making his way through the universe.
There are a lot of people taking issue with my “children are innocent” argument, countering that by the same logic I employ, that should then also apply to the adult Tuskens. That is, if the kids are innocent because they’re a product of generational conditioning, then the same can be said for the grown Tuskens-therefore I should consider them innocent as well.
This, I think, intentionally ignores a few key factors: adults are much more fully developed than children and have a greater capacity to form their own ideas and think for themselves. If we liken this to our own society, it’s kind of like how sometimes you might have been raised to believe something that isn’t true, or extremely bad. Something you never thought twice about in your youth, but might second guess once you’ve gained some life experience
People often defended slave ownership back in the day under the logic that it was seen as a normal part of society. Most people back then simply didn’t question it because it was so integrated into every day life. Yet we all recognize that slavery was wrong (hopefully) and that people who owned slaves as adults with the capacity to choose, were in the wrong for doing so. Where little Timmy might have been innocent of his father’s transgressions, Timmy’s dad was committing an evil act and needed to be stopped.
If you were put into a position where you had to kill a serial killer, and then after the fact you learned he had a son who he had been raising to follow in his footsteps, would you kill that child too? If you answer yes to that question, I am no longer interested in discussing this further with you. You are wrong and you need to seek help.
Is it ethical to wipe out another species, for example, mosquitoes? Is it moral for a time traveler to minecraft Baby Hitler?
@ No, it’s not. But they’re not comparable anyway, because Tuskens aren’t animals. I have no issue with the (painless) killing of animals to maintain the natural order of our ecosystem-because to not do so would destroy our planet-but sapient creatures is where we should all draw the line.
Well said Sheev.
@@SheevTalks you're one of the very few normal people who talks about Star Wars on RUclips which is why I respect you. But as demonstrated by these comments these savages aren't willing to engage as civilized human beings. You're wasting your time and breathe by engaging with these people.
@@SheevTalksEven Anakin think they aren’t animals, they are **like** animals. He then uses very human words to define their men(warriors), and separately their civilians women and children. It’s rediculously evil on so many levels.
Actually none of this matters because back in 1977, a stormtrooper hit his head on a door so Star Wars is just goofy silly fun
In 1983 Luke also kicked the air so hard, it made his opponent fall over.
@ragingraccoon3964 this comment never fails to make me laugh
Your argument is moot. In 2005, the Jedi Council almost forgot about the droid attack on the Wookies.
It’s a movie for children. -George Lucas
Good point
Counter argument: They killed me in Battlefront
A buddy and I made it our goal to capture all the Tusken command posts before the round ended.
Colonization made for a fun side objective
@@Imperialstorm03 a very valid rebuttal actually
I use that argument on the Gamorreans
@@Imperialstorm03 Those OP green beam shots were the worst.
Counter counter argument: you were in their swamp
Anakin: Nooo I'm a monster I killed the women and the children D:
BasedMoistreFarmer1488: Actually, if you'll look over here at the Tattooine crime statistic-
@@Nostradankus OOF
Do you think that post-empire the Star Wars equivalent of 1488 would be 2566?
25 being the famous words of the declaration of the new order[¹], and 66 being order 66.
[¹] "In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society!"
@AghiTron Huh, good point. That's probably a really good equivalent, yes
@@AghiTron Damn you really nailed the 25 part.
"Just because we have to kill the adult mice doesn't mean we should kill the juvenile mice as well."
Vermin is vermin. I have spoken.
As a moisture farmer myself I can tell that this perspective is coming from some core world elitist that has never lived a day near these savages, anakin was a hero
@@joshb4898 BASED
Completely agree - this youtuber is such a dork
Raised by a single mother, disabled war vet and father of 2 who lost his wife in a tragic accident. The man is a saint.
I don't mean to take your comment too seriously, but I really do think that is a likely perspective for a Tatooinian farmer to have.
The fact that a Tatooninian farmer---or Anakin for that matter--might have that perspective does not mean that that perspective is morally correct. A character can be evil.
#tuskenlivesmatter
Counterpoint: No
I mean it is a powerful argument
Total Tusken Death
@@Baristapher Could you really tell them apart?
Fair
Counterpoint: they were like animals
You don’t understand, it was a heated gamer moment.
Made of a series of very heated gamer moments.
Lmfao
He used all the slurs in chat
but not just against the men, but the women and the children too
@moistquasar3572 Nah but he forgot to quicksave before doing it that's too far even for a gamer moment
Unfortunally they werent made in the Celestial Image so they had to go.
You see, Tuskens have the mark of Cad Bain. That makes them less worthy.
@@iivin4233Haven't you Heard the story of The Wandering Tuskin?
@@Lobsterwithinternet You mean the Wandering Toydarian.
@@codemancz798 Yes, thank you.
@@codemancz798 Surely you mean the wandering Neimoidian? From the purse-worlds.
“Have you considered that I hate Tuskens and find them inferior?” - median youtube comment
They objectively are
I say this and act like this
Not inferior. Evil.
Kidnapping
Torturing
Murder
@@Svevsky "objective" literally just means there's a rubric, but you haven't identified the rubric you're using in this case. You've essentially said nothing.
I think you forget that Anakin's lightsaber was still blue. We learned in Acolyte that lightsabers turn red when you do dark side moves, so killing the Tusken Raiders was clearly *not* a dark side move.
That was an inconsistency made by disney
(That's the joke)
@@willbyrob6582 No it wasn't. It's canon.
@@MrStarman926It’s canon but still inconsistent
(That's the joke)
Counterpoint: It was a skill issue
@@noxiabathys Counterpoint....where is the evidence?
@ the same people all died and Anakin won. Skill issue
Okay I’m more baffled by “the children participated in the torture” than anything else.
Source: George Lucas told me in my dreams
@@nnkk7742 Facts
@@nnkk7742 What the fuck does that have to do with Star Wars?
@@Jose-st3fq so? They still did it
Why wouldn't they? It takes a while for kids to learn restraint, evil is their default status, that's why you need school teachers and parents to wrangle them, so they don't start throwing stones at each other for fun. As a piece of evidence, Boba got bullied by tusken children, and those were supposed to be "the good ones", it makes sense the worse ones would have tortured Shmi.
I will admit, it was somewhat odd hearing Anakin shout out "TOTAL TUSKEN DEATH"
“I seriously don’t think there are even six million Tuskans on the planet Padme, those numbers are seriously inflated…”
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 "how were they gassed if there were wooden doors on the chambers padme ?"
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 LMAOO NOT ANAKIN BEING A HOLO DENIER 😭
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 "Wooden lightsabers just don't make any sense, Padme"
Counterpoint; they're savages, savages! Barely even human.
Of course they're "Savages! Savages!Killers at the core"
Counter-counterpoint: _perhaps being human isn't even something worth being._
drive.google.com/file/d/1yHLSdKFbQf8eaP_-zCipHxFAgjDgIslx/view
@@guardianvalor962they’re not like you and me, which means they must be evil
Cabbages, cabbages!
Pocahontas?
Sheev fails to consider that they deserved it because their vibes were off
@@LowResCatExplosion Yeah kidnapping and torture completely sends the bad times add parties and stuff.
“But Sheev, if R2 didn’t try to murder C-3PO then R2 would not be able to save Padme” - R2 probably
Counterpoint: Anakin is strong. Sand people are weak. Thus Anakin had every right to do as he pleased.
@@user-Mr-L-of-York Like they did with his mom.
@@Rebelnutt Exactly. And Anakin in turn used his might to make right like the sand people did.
@@user-Mr-L-of-York BASED
@@RebelnuttBased on what?
Thats how Tusken Raiders act themselves, they erease compleate settlements if they can
Counterpoint...kids are the worst.
Weren't we all kids?
@@D2rk_Lord898No we’re all adults here no fun allowed
@@D2rk_Lord898 I was born fully grown
@@D2rk_Lord898 Im vat-grown super soldier made with genetic material of Otto von Bismarck, Che Guevara and John Paul the Second
@@D2rk_Lord898yeah but we got better :)
“I never really cared about the civilians, innocent…or otherwise”
-Senator Padmie Amidannister
Brilliant
She's an Israelite so obviously she was even more in love with Anakin after telling her he slaughtered a bunch of sand people's women and children.
@@RebelnuttTrue it all makes sense now
@@Rebelnuttif that was the case then that means the Tuskens were using their children as armor to try and keep people from shooting back
LMAO 😂
“Not just the men, but the women and the children too.”
*Old Superman music plays in the background*
Myth of the Noble Sand People
@@renegadeguardian Mostly peaceful kidnappings.
I think it's a bit of a problem that we are making these comparisons at all.
I like to make real world comparisons myself, but Tuskens are, eh, clearly not native Americans or protestors or whatever.
Those comparisons only go so far.
Why aren't they ? It's heavily hinted and outright stated that Tuskens are indigenous to the planet and have been either been forced to live in inhospitable terrain or are killed by human incomers.@@iivin4233
@iivin4233 They are dirty desert goblins killing everyone to reclaim their ancestral home…. Oops I better stop that’s way too many real world comparisons.
@@iivin4233 Which is why we should be _irritated_ at Sheev for trying to make the comparison to Colonialism in the first place. He flat out said that he wasn't going to use supplementary material and only go by what the movies say. The movies never stated that the Tuskens were the only natives to Tatooine and everyone else is an interloping colonizer. And worse, those supplements also say that if the Tuskens _were_ the natives to the planet, they're all that remains of the civilization that _ruined_ Tatooine and turned it into a desert in the first place.
Yes it is understandable that anakin slaughters them cuz it’s his mom any of us who love our mom get the anger he felt however it does not make killing of the innocent justified at all. It can be understandable and morally wrong at the same time.
This is blowback from that one time the Galactic Republic used the Jedi to arm and train the Tusken Raiders to fight the Soviet Republic on Tatooine
@@Remnicore Star Wars is dedicated to our brave Tusken freedom fighters
@@donovan4222 fun fact that I didn’t know until listening to Blowback S4: the ending credits dedicated to “brave Mujahideen fighters” in Rambo III isn’t real and never existed. The widely circulated image of the credits is fake and has circulated the Internet for so long that it’s basically a Mandela effect now as so many people believe that it was real and simply removed from the film after 9/11.
@@Remnicore Yeah it’s a meme but it’s funny because Rambo 3 is literally about Rambo going on a mission with the CIA in Afghanistan to help the Mujahideen fight the Soviets 🤣 American propaganda movies were never very subtle.
@@Remnicore Hum... I've done a bit of research on it and i'm not sure blowback got it right.
There doesn't seem to be any proof it was a lie except for pointing at proofs it was real and saying it's doctored.
The claim also needs to be understood better. the claim is that at some point, in some version of the movie, the "gallant people" was replaced by the "brave mujahideen fighters"
It wasn't claimed that the dvd/vhs version had it, it wasn't claimed 9/11 had anything to do with it. It wasn't claimed that anyone watching the movie would see the "brave mujahideen" version.
It wouldn't be the firt time a tv channel edited a movie, if that's a tv channel that did it.
It wouldn't be the first time a country edited a movie, if that's a localised thing.
There are many possibilities that would explain why we can't prove/disprove it even though it may be true.
Anyway, if you got definitiv proof one way or another i'd be interested.
@ that’s pretty long-winded but, in my opinion, completely unnecessary. The claim stems from the doctored image. The doctored image is the only source for the claim, otherwise there is no claim that it was ever real. Without that doctored image being widely circulated online, there is no claim that it was ever a thing and no one would believe it. Since the only “proof” to support the claim that it’s real is a doctored image which is most definitely not real (because it’s doctored), then the case can be laid to rest. There’s no other scenario where we’d entertain something like this beyond that point exception for religion, so unless someone would follow it up with “I simply have faith that it was real in some version of the film” then we can move on and accept that it was never real.
Listen man I think you're missing the bigger picture. The real question we need to be asking is "where tf did the tuskens get all that wood from?!"
😗...
Didn't you watch BoBF?
They get it from the nose lizards. 🐊 🦎
@@Lobsterwithinternet I did watch BoBF and I regret every second of it
@@leisurelyrabbit8662 Should ha e made The Book of Babo Frick.
Tbf, that is a good question.
“Oh, please, everyone's always on about the children. I already tried leaving them alive, but all they do is grow up under my rule or dedicate their pathetic lives to revenge. Usually both. Really, killing them is a kindness. I can retract that kindness if you wish. But THEN who's the villain?”
"You"
Handsome Jack Quote?
@@ZX-GearDBZA Freeza, actually.
Dragon Ball Z Abridged.
I mean, it's Frieza.He isn't wrong but he is most certainly not right.
They could have grown up to be doctors and engineers
they get a doctorate in the fields of murder and slave ownership.
*Chirp*
Based
the ol pro life slogan against abortion
They could have doctored pain and engineered torture
Counterpoint: they attacked me in Kotor 1, so i hate them. Anakin did the right thing
Sheev, you have to understand than whenever a Skywalker is born, The Force flips a coin...
Another of the fingers on the Monkey’s Paw curls…
I think the force flipped a table when Anakin was born. He was a real phantom menace. A revenge of the sith. Awakened by the force one might say.
@@notgoddhoward5972 Also Unleashed the force...twice even creating a much better timeline with Starkiller.
I love when Anakin encounters A’sherad Hett, a tucked Jedi in the comics. They loop back and the narrative forces Anakin to confront his sins in a meaningful way.
and anakin says, that he would kill them again
Yeah all true but Sheev has this demented resolve to ignore the superior works of the EU in favor of focusing on the repeated trash shoveled by Disney. I don't get why he'd exclude 1 because it came later and is a justification after the fact, then look at book of Boba Fett
@@dirkechoes1377 yeah, it's like with Ahsoka surviving Order 66, because she trained with Anakin, but the training was showed later, afters season 7
@@dirkechoes1377 He thinks the chips are a good addition so I'm not surprised
@@dirkechoes1377 Um, he clearly doesn't like what Disney has made. But it's new and it's what people want to talk about. He also brought it up because it's something people are referencing, versus non-canon books from 20 years ago or whatever.
Yes they were mostly peaceful and only did some kidnapping here and there.
Tuskens are basically Muslims, i have no sympathy for either
@@Rebelnutt most peacefully no one said that but ur vi racism is showing the hell..
This is why we hate ur kind
yeah, you're gonna say the hutts were less horrible despite also holding slaves?
@@minestar2247 Did the Huts camp out in the desert too?
Is that an inelegant attempt to combine whataboutism and a strawman?
Knights of the Old Republic had an interesting take on the tuskan raiders that "humanized" them without shying away from the starkness and brutality of their culture.
Which is why it's the best interpretation outside the Kenobi novel.
@@irritablerodent True
Those Tuskens were great. “Thanks for the help new friends! You’re welcome here any time! If you look in our baskets the entire village will try to kill you!”
That species issue is definitely one that always bothers me in sci fi. I remember playing Mass Effect Andromeda(the bad one in the series) and walking through this museum area set up to describe the different alien cultures. Each one had a recorded speech about their characteristics, and when you got to humans ours was essentially "we have a lot of different ideas and diverse cultures." Like in the universe of ME humans are apparently the only species that don't have a completely homogeneous culture where everyone behaves the exact same way. Only Andromeda was stupid enough to specifically draw attention to it but once you notice it's definitely present in the previous games.
Mordin literally mentions it explicitly in his loyalty mission, in ME2. Humans have a greater range of genetic diversity, which is why they're being heavily targeted by reapers, and useful in illegal experiments.
@@Sousabird That may be true but it still feels like an excuse for the writers to oversimplify all the other races and make them more homogenous for storytelling sake. Theres no reason other species couldn’t be as diverse, or more diverse, than humans…and doing that might actually be an interesting subversion of sci fi alien tropes.
It's definitely a clear sign of lazy writing. Having to give members of a species different personalities and motives is too much work for some writers.
@@donovan4222 Oh, I agree, I just meant it didn't originate in Andromeda.
You can arguably justify it more in ME; humans are young. They only recently established a unified world government. Compare that to many of the other races that have been space-fairing and united for thousands of years. I imagine that in several thousand more years, humans will be far more homogenous, and differences between us will be more like people on different colonies have arguments, instead of people of different cultures or religions are warring.
I think you're opening up a bigger can of worms with this response.
Way more than he realizes 😬
@@ManiacMayhem7256 gamer time.
@@frantictoast3741 what do you mean?.
@@timothywilliams3205It’s less about defending the prequels and more about ironically condoning genocide to be edgy.
@@lufsolitaire5351 yea i was gonna say I think thisnconversatiom os really telling of where peoples actual beliefs lie
They were animals, and they were slaughtered like animals.
*kicks sand to cover it up*
Are you okay? Like really? Do you need some people to talk?
@@D2rk_Lord898 come on bro, they are not even real
@@Mortimer_RSyou can’t genocide animals actually… so this is not a good argument
But op fr are you okay?
Total Tusken Death
fact check status: trve ✅
They should just give out disintegrating blaster machine guns to Jawas. For self defence situations like Anakin had to deal with.
Trvth seismic charge
This, unironically.
"um actually, killing innocents is morally unacceptable" - 🤓
"Appeal to morality fallacy" -😎
@@omarrojo9484 nobody mentioned an authority, you are weird
Wow hot take there edge lord 😂
Are you vegan? If not, you’re finding the suffering and death of innocents.
@@willbyrob6582ever plow a field? You know how animals that kills?
Putting aside the morality of Anakin's actions. I can see Padmé letting it slide and forgiving him. She already clearly likes Anakin, and she liked Smee. Despite her characterization, she's a human being with biases and double standards. And we don't know how prejudiced she may be towards the Tuskens.
You might already know this, but the specific trope you're talking about at 10:41 is called the Planet of Hats. Which is, basically as you said, defining an entire species or race by a single trial and/or stereotype. Overly Sarcastic Productions has a neat video on it.
Worst. Trope. EVER. It makes the worlds/universe feel so small and stunted! I want to awed by the scope of things, not rolling my eyes at the Everyone Is The Same On This Planet for the ten thousandth time
Last time I was this early we didn't know Yaddle talked normally
It genuinely, deeply and so greatly concerningly baffles me that padme wanted *anything* to do with anakin after that
Some girls like murders and psychopaths 🤷🏽
Wom(en) are highly attracted to M(en) who are capable of merder
Maybe she thought he was lying 🤔 but yeah even from this position why would you want to be with someone lying about something so serious?
Slaughters the village like animals. Only after going on a fascist rant while they rolled around on the grass. Which only happened after she told him his creepy sex stare makes her uncomfortable.
Yeah, she should want nothing to do with this guy.
She’s just racist against tuskans.
I always was under the understanding that Anakin experienced a moment of darkness resolving to kill the Tusken Raiders after the death of his mother. His rant to Padme is the grief and anguish from succumbing to that darkness for a moment despite being a Jedi, someone who he perceives to be above such base anger.
It's likely acceptible to draw your sword in defense and slay if necessary.
It wasn't defense, it was revenge. "I slaughtered them like animals," are the exact words he used.
It was an entire village he slaughtered. That's a lot of "moments" of succumbing to the darkness, as you put it.
@EzaleaGraves that is my point. Anakin knew what he did was terrible and that he let his emotions get the better of him, something he believes a Jedi would never do.
@@otterfire4712 That's too big of a concept for these people to handle
@@otterfire4712 Indeed, and that is why Sheev didn't think he even needed to address the point in his original video--OBVIOUSLY it was bad, the movie tells us as much.
@@billjacobs521 I know, I just don't get how others didn't make the connection.
What Anakin did was understandable because his grief and rage got the better of him but the films never treated what he did as a good thing at best it wanted us to feel sorry for him because he hates himself for losing control.
Wanted to point out a possible typo but I noticed that the comment got updated so I just want to tell you: I completely agree
@skyslasher2297 Yea, but I do think there were ways where the details of the story could have been changed to still facilitate that. For example, if we were told Tuskens were monsters, causing havoc and devastation and the Hutts didn't do anything but protect their own stretch of territory; I can see Anakin justifying why he eradicated them beyond just the grief of his mother. Because in his mind, threats like this should not exist if they can harm others.
Sadly he came away that he should solve all his problems via killing and letting your emotions run rampant and entrusting your very being to vague promises.
@@Avarn388 Does that really change much? Him justifying it in his head doesn't change that he was wrong and what he did was horrible. Also the movies clearly show that he does not think that way, because he regrets it.
@@Avarn388 We weren't told though Tuskens were monsters and that Hutts are anything but squatting slavers in their personal yachts, we were literally shown this to be the case. I don't understand how the uploader or audiences can miss this. Oh but not all of them... problem with that is you're basically just writing fanfiction by that point trying to "read between the lines" like that.
I am calling for TTD (Total Tusken Death)
*cue to EFAP celebrating the Tuskins in BoBF being destroyed*
Good? Bad?
I'm the guy with the lightsaber.
You argue for killing the Tuskens to defend the movie. I argue for killing the Tuskens because Hunter told me, "If it's hostile, you kill it." We are not the same.
Any news on the vr metro coming out?
i agree
@ not to my knowledge, but I’m not really a vr guy, sorry
Except many weren't hostile.
@@billjacobs521 so what?
I mean the ones in Bobby feet were portrayed as good even though they kidnapped a bunch of people still
Lmao I can't tell if that's auto correct or intentional don't change it if it's the former
Bobby feet
Ah, yes, Bobby Feet
Its almost as if these American Indian-Bedouin Berber allegories are very poorly thought out and thus quite literally can be grouped under a broad umbrella because George and other creators show very little if any tribal differences between the various groups of Tusken.
@@Oppen1945But then I remember that Lucasfilm likes to retroactively make up lore to tape together their dog water writing.
I thought this was a joke at first.
There are actual genocide apologists in the Star Wars fandom?
Look at the comment section lol
Apology?
There are genocide apologists in real life. If anything it's even easier in fandom.
What Anakin did to the tuskens needs no apology. They are not humans, but an invasive species dangerous to humans.
@mojus2890 they are canonically the indigenous inhabitants of the planet.
Some hippy from naboo or Alderan wrote this, they dont k ow whats like to have to defend your homestead from those savages
Hey, you could train those slaves you have to fight the savages🤷♂️(oversimplified point)
It's their home, you're just squatting on it.
@@billjacobs521Technically, they're migratory and don't have a home.
@@billjacobs521 Oh yea kidnapping and torturing a single lady will get them to leave.
@@drackestalentorgen166 bro wants to be racist so bad that he just automatically sides with the settlers in every fictional conflict
Strange to make such a big deal about Sand People.
Average Israeli
tell that to george lucas writing the movie this way lol
Alright. I'm gonna have to do it. I gotta deconstruct the premise that this is a "character assassination" of Padme for comforting Anakin.
You premise this on the idea that Padme "is falling in love" with this person and she would NEVER be able to stomach what Anakin did. Which I would wholeheartedly agree with.
But that's the problem. She wasn't *in the process of falling in love* she had *already fallen in love* back on Naboo. The movie spends a great deal of time there, and thanks to the very wishy washy amount of time that all star wars movies take place in, we could just as safely assume they were on Naboo for 3-4 months as 1-3 weeks.
And just because Padme spends a lot of time on Naboo professing that she does NOT love Anakin it's pretty blatantly telegraphed that she's not trying to convince him (and she would be smart enough to know she couldn't) but that she's trying to convince HERSELF. You can take umbrage with the love story, and it's beats, and the characters age difference (but honestly a 5 year age gap isn't that dramatic once they're adults) all you want and that's fine. But you can't say that Padme wouldn't comfort the person that, in her own words mind you, she truly deeply loves. She doesn't comfort him to go against her character, it *builds* her into a more complex character than simply "smart politico with unbending moral values" she is flawed in the same exact way Anakin Skywalker is. She loves too much, too completely. And she is showing that she's willing to go against her moral beliefs for whom she loves. And that would ultimately be her demise as well in Episode 3 where she finally does stand up and say "Anakin this is too far" but it was too little too late. She's literally the equivalent of an enabler. C'mon now.
I'd like to add since that comment was super long and didn't want to make it longer, that I do very much like Sheevs content and while I enjoy the 1-3 hour long essays, I would also appreciate more of these 10-30 minute interludes of content as well!
Also, the only thing Padme knows about the Tuskens is that they kidnapped, tortured and murdered Anakin's completely innocent mother and maimed and/or killed most of the party that attempted to rescue her.
@@FriendlyDarkwraith and then the love of her life came back and said m, emotionally, that he brought some form of justice upon them. And maybe a politician would be able to see that in a lawless land like the Junland wastes a vigilante would be necessary to exact justice.
But I don't want to delve too deep into Sheevs "kids are inherently innocent" spiel here because that's true. They are. But that doesn't mean that the sins of the father cannot be wrought upon the son. A principle I'd discuss with him given the chance.
Ok, so...
Even if any of you find genocide of local people morally right... It still doesn't change a fact the point is how Anakin despises himself for doing so. His moral compas broke and he knows as a Jedi he needs to be better.
I think the point Lucas tried to make was:
Padme is the one who can see the goodness in people like Luke does in Return of the Jedi.
It is harder for me to find other Tuskens innocent. It wasn't just Shmi who was killed. There were 26 people killed or tortured and killed if we believe what Cliegg Lars said.
Anakin killed them because of his mother's death but it wasn't an incident where those people took just one person. If Anakin didn't kill them all they would attack another settlement and another...
If the kids could survive they would despise the "invaders" even more leading to more bloodshed.
So what I'm saying is; Anakin slaughtering little kids might be a good thing... from really depressing point of view.
We have Anakin trying to live up to his dreams of being a hero to the galaxy... and when finally he is on the mission on his own with the promise he will save everyone... He is confronted with the idea that to save Moister Farmers he needs to do horrible things.
Fascinating idea I wish was told in much better film.
it's almost like it can both be a good thing in the grand scheme of thing and a legitimate reason for grievances and self-deprecation. Nuance is hard for some
This is what is known as a "final solution." And yeah, you can make that argument, it's certainly a position to take.
Based.
Honestly this is why I think it was the correct choice, not a morally good one, but the correct one. It all comes down to aftermath and what would happen.
They are raiders plain and simple, yes they had innocents, but those innocents were raised by raiders to make more raiders, it's a vicious cycle unless you pull it up by the roots. It's not that "this is the only thing they're capable of", but rather "leaving them alive would lead to even more innocent deaths". At what point do innocent losses become unacceptable?
@@AtomicRobloxProductions Ironically the whole decision was pretty pointless considering Tusken Raiders still exist in the movies happening after in plenty enough numbers to be a problem to people living on Tattooine.
I feel like the whole point of this scene was entirely supposed to be "This is the beginning of Anakin's fall." Like, this is the first thing we see him do that is pretty unjustifiable, while still being understandable due to his emotional state. That's like.... the whole point.
Have you considered that they were COMING RIGHT FOR US?
I dont think its a good practice to excesively pre-emptively argue with anticipated criticisms. It makes you basically argue with ghosts for a large portion of the video
inevitable comment in your revenge of the sith video: "Anakin was justified in choking Padme" 💀
God, it's insane how many people I've seen sincerely hold this take
@Funky_Player2 to be fair to anakin, she was pregnant at the time..and we know how anakin feels about kids
@Funky_Player2 Show me more of these "many people" who thought Anakin (who was obviously in a blacked out rage state and not thinking clearly or having the right idea as to what was going on) was in the right to choke Padme.
I mean yeah. She was trying to defend a failed government and her actions would turn her traitor to the *democratically elected* Empire. She had it coming
You know for a fact she was in to that shit.
1. Book of Boba Fett is disney canon. Its got nothing to do with attack of the clones. Its also an awful and poorly made corporate product made almost exclsuively to bait Mandalorian subscrubers to keep up their subscriptions, so I'm not sure why you'd want to consider it.
2. Assuming that everyone talking about tuskens is lying and in bad faith is also a bad faith argument. All that gets you is stupid circular discussions.
3. Tuskens in lucas canon are awful. Consistently. If they had some nuance its never mentioned. Lars could be correct. Why assume hes just lying?
4. When Ben and Luke investigate the destroyed Jawa trawler Ben rejects Luke's assumption not on a moral argument. He doesnt defend Tusken morals and say they wouldn't do it. He points to the accuracy of the blaster shots and says they couldn't have done it. He also previously saves Luke from an unprovoked violent assault as well.
5. In every Lucas film Tuskens are consistently awful. Theyre not people. Theyre aliens. Would you really extend the same courtesy to the aliens in Alien and leave the children alone?
Xenomorphs and Tuskens are not really comparable. The Tusken in lucas canon are presented as a simple tribe culture hostile to any outsider - usually also quite sadistic towards them - but still as people. Alien makes a pretty big point out of how the Xenomorphs are predatory animals that just happen to be amazing at hunting their prey.
The Tusken are referred to as sand *people* by Obi Wan in Ep4 after all. The only time they're reffered to Animals is by Anakin who is stil pissed over them killing his mother. If someone killed your grandma in a DUI you'd say something similair about the driver, but that doesn't mean humans suddenly aren't people anymore.
Thats your only really weak point though.
@@eightcoins4401 Is your deciding factor really that the Xenomorphs can't speak? You easily degrade them to animals.
I don't like Tuskens. They are coarse and rough and irritating and they get everywhere.
TTD
We got Total Tusken Death and Total Jedi Death
AAAARRH ARH AR-Ack
I don't see a problem with the very first comment you show. They are literally shown to be nothing more than hostile kidnappers who torture people to death. According to the movies which you insist on only using they are just that
This lmao. The only thing in the movies we see of tuskans is that they screech like morons and that they beat people and torture and kill people. Literally nothing redeemable is ever shown about them. Hell, Jawas may be thieves but at least they know how to mend technology and shit.
Anakin didn’t slaughter them like animals. He just slaughtered animals.
'before I watch the video' He prevented future kidnapping or at least lowered the suffering because there's less raiders now
He genocided a speices, that's not justifable
@@CRYSTAL_CUSTOMS better off without the barbaric raiders
@@andreimaxwell4455 they are inherently barbaric
@@CRYSTAL_CUSTOMS and they had it coming
@@andreimaxwell4455 I meant they aren't. They aren't inherently barbaric
When Anakin and Padme are sneaking around the Geonosian hive, some resting workers are awakened by their trespassing and try to apprehend them. Anakin literally just cuts them down, they aren’t even armed. Literally nobody talks about this tho.
Nonhumans are just not people to the rest of the galaxy. Smh.
It's kind a theme in Star Wars, makes sense given that A New Hope was made in response to the Vietnam war, I guess for the original movie it was justifable since they're just randoms and possiblity not even a tribe, it's at odds with later Star Wars media which expends on literally everyone except for the Tuskens and Jawas because they were antagonists to the Skywalkers, really odd
when core world pacifists visit the outer rim
Stop colonizing other people's land--problem solved.
@@billjacobs521 I rest my case. It was the core worlds who where responsible for the mass expansion and often the ones who oppressed the natives of the various existing worlds as they expand and in many cases such as Tatooine when they realized there was no minerals to mine they simply left the settlers there to dry with no support.
@@toptiergaming6900Counterpoint: Most of those worlds who had the capability did the exact same thing as the Core Worlds did.
@@billjacobs521 Stop raiding our colonies or will make Anakin's tantrum for mommy look like a toddler after what the repercussions compared to.
@Lobsterwithinternet when I said "core world" I should have said ritch wealthy worlds like those in the core and inner rim (and sometimes middle rim) and the various exploitative corporations that bring wealth to them
I don't know what I was expecting, but _actual racism towards Tusken Raiders_ in RUclips comments was not on my bingo card.
12:11 Another thing about this is that black absorbs heat, whereas light colors (white, beige) reflect it. Lmao. And they do not seem to be set up to how the Bedouins in real life do wear black in desert, which are only a minority of peoples there anyway.
there is no difference in black and white cloth.
Total Tusken Death❤
I think anakin cutting off both dookus hands in ep3 is actually a really great demonstration of how insanely slippery acting out of anger can be. He had beaten dooku and gotten revenge for his own hand, then he takes dookus other because he can.
Huh He cut them at the same time
I think him cutting dooku's hands was a great move because he can't use force lightning or his lightsaber anymore and can be arrested
@@dahannes6739 he grabs both hands and cuts them off. He had beaten dooku and decided to take both.
@basedbrit4206 and when anakin lost his hand he couldn't have used force choke or any other moves or was he just paralysised by shock. Anakin had won already. He decided to go fuether
@ninjacatsif2135 I'm pretty sure in StarWars cannon losing limbs makes you weaker too. Anakin had confirmed victory by slicing his hands
Unworthy of the channel name, a real sith would congratulate Anakin on it
"That's not how species works."
Except for the Orcs in Tolkien's version of Lord of the Rings, which is different from Rings of Power's version of Middle-Earth.
I mean, I'm pretty sure if Anakin just took out the men the women and children living in a barren, inhospitable desert wasteland would have just ceased to be slower and with more suffering with so many of the workers that provide resources for survival gone for good. It's not like he could just let the men live when he didn't know which of them did it, he had to take them all out to be sure he got them and it was a small tribe and he couldn't just not get revenge, so it was a necessary evil, but an evil that pushes him further towards the dark side nonetheless especially with the way he justified it to himself. I guess he should have come up with a way to get the women and kids to somewhere else or something, but it was a necessary stepping stone towards his ascension to villainy. It's not like it's always morally wrong to unalive children, if you're stopping their suffering or if they're shooting at you or about to set off a self end vest. You can even put kids in prison, that's literally what juvenile detention centres are, even 10 year olds go there for stealing candy bars or unaliving their infant brother (actually really happened once), even then even 8 year olds have unalived babies before. Children are not innocent, they are extremely vicious and cold-blooded, I'm sure even pro unalive penalty people think under 18 unalivers should be given lenient prison sentences not ending but still...
Counterpoint regarding Padmes love for anakin: She likely heard stories about Tuskens from Anakin before the massacre of the tuskens.
She may simply have not cared. Shes a Human, from a literal elected noble class, so, she probably agrees with anis narrative.
I don't like to be mean about it because I like that people enjoy the prequel films. Even though I don't really like them I would rather discuss star wars (or hang out in general) with prequel enjoyers than OT purists. That being said I think prequel fans often times go through a lot of mental gymnastics to justify why the movies are good and instead of just enjoying them despite being flawed.
Yes, it's very annoying. You have PT fanboys trying to justify every awkward, stilted line of dialogue, and then you have PT haters claiming literally nothing is good about them. Like, geez, the movies are solidly mid--they have good parts, but they are all deeply flawed.
well, how about the sequel fans?
cause prequel fans have developed a similar "gate keep"iness to the ot purists, to the point of runining the finale
@@minestar2247 I don't think I've ever actually run into a sequel fan in the wild. As far as I've seen, they only exist as Star wars RUclipsrs. If they do actually exist then they would probably have to do the most incredible display of mental acrobatics of all. I doubt we would see much common ground, whereas me (OT fanboy) and a prequel fanboy could probably find a lot to agree on. Also, I don't think it was fans that ruined the finale. I think Disney did that themselves.
@@person042 not exactly, it was "fan" pressure on disney that led them to ruin ROSw, because of the backlash againt the great last jedi, which is why they tried to "fix" it and failed horribly
and yeah, the main point of agreement between prequel fans and ot fans is mostly their veneration of the past, not accepting anything newer because of reasons
@@minestar2247 Fan pressure or not it's up to Disney to make a good movie and they didn't, you can't blame fans for that. Also you seem to be implying that everything was fine with the sequels until the end and that's just not true. The force awakens is one of the most soulless retreads ever lacking any "new ideas" that you claim the series needed. I'm guessing you like the last Jedi and I don't feel like arguing about that movie anymore so I'll just say clearly that movie had a very visceral reaction from a large portion (and I'd claim the majority) of fans. If they didn't want to feel fan pressure then they shouldn't have gone out of their way to upset them. Fans aren't obligated to accept ideas just because they are "new" if they think they are bad which clearly they do. What you dismissively call "reasons" I would call valid.
Your Revenge of The Sith review is the most awaited thing since my son
Don't you mean your other son?
I think that more videos like this would be very helpful to cover missed points or respond to comments in bulk
My problem is the logical conclusion of any choice.
Anakin kills only the people who tortured and killed his mom: First, the others try to defend them forcing Anakin to fight off as many people as possible. He flees, leaving as many alive as possible. The others seek revenge and can't find him, so they slaughter more innocent people on the warpath.
Anakin kills only the men: All the hunters are dead, the women and children die of famine
Anakin kills the men and women but not the children: The children die a slow painful death of starvation.
So like, it's unironically DBZA Freeza. "Really, killing them is a kindness. I can retract that kindness if you wish."
In his defence; They tortured his Mom to death. I can’t defend killing the kids. *Everyone else in the camp however….*
I think it would have been much more compelling if Anakin instead killed every single one of the tusken’s warriors rather than the entire tribe. I get that him slaughtering all of them, particularly the innocent women and children, is supposed to start his descent to the dark side, but it feels like they’re accelerating the descent instead of doing it in increments. Him killing the warriors to the last man makes it morally questionable but not outright morally abhorrent. It would be understandable since the tuskens tortured and killed his mother, so him killing every last warrior removes their ability to do it to other innocent people but also spares the innocents that they themselves have.
@djdeadbeat4380 Exactly. And then you could later build on that. Like if this event was what led Anakin to realize that as Jedi shouldn't they do everything in their power to save people? That the bureaucratic red tape shouldn't get in the way? Frame it based on what he's gone through in life and then ratchet that up with his vision of Padme dying. Because when you have dark arcs, negative change arcs over a long period, you want to incrementally showcase those dark moments. Walter White from Breaking Bad is an excellent example, given everything he did do was for his family but it became about himself at the end.
Yeah, but counterpoint: the dark side is just all the chaos gods, and khorne doesn't really care about from where the blood flows. It's a dark side moment, and starwars doesn't seem to be very pro-nuance
Tuskens are shown to be nothing more than slavers and killers, anakin is completely justified
It's dumb because Lucas doesn't even understand his setting or characters. Vader as portrayed in the originals isn't going around killing children or especially, younglings, I don't care what he's saving. Or even more insane killing random people on that planet to "draw Obi-Wan" out. He has a certain honor, even if the escalation of the Empire is leading to the annihilation of entire planets to enforce order on the galaxy.
Agreed, and that also fixes the issue of padme not looking at him as human scum in the aftermath. Perhaps during the battle of geonosis we could see him getting more bloodlusted.
The Tusken massacre and his mother's death did serve as the beginning of Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader
As a victim of violence, abuse and bullying throughout all my childhood and youth, I don't know anything more vile and evil but children.
I hardly think children are innocent. The only thing I can see in their favor however is that they probably don't know better. That's where education should step in.
kazuhira miller:
I've also never entirely understood the leniency people have for terrible children. The "they don't know any better"stance is obviously true when they're like... toddlers? But I find myself so confused when people continue extending this philosophy to cruel middle schoolers or whatever.
The young and cruel more often than not grow up into identically cruel adults, but no one affords terrible adults any leniency. People are sympathetic when children come from bad backgrounds, but those same bad backgrounds don't just go away for adults. People have a kind of implicit expectation that some time before you hit 18 that you're supposed to just learn morality and slot yourself into functioning society.
I guess it happens for a lucky few? But relentless bullies and animal torturers at 10 years old don't often grow into upstanding adults. At what age can true moral responsibility fairly begin?
@@danieljanz4229 Are you trying to imply that treating children equally to full grown adults is justified because you got bullied?
@donovan4222 Yes and it is Based.
Kids are cruel, Jack.
To an extent Anakin was always Darth Vader, we just didn't care because the republic were the "good guys." He was 9 years old when he blew up a trade federation mothership with all hands aboard. And then that behavior was encouraged, against acceptable targets. Is it any surprise that he turned out the way he did?
ah, it's the paladin vs baby orks debate all over again
The Tuscan Raiders shot at children in the first movie they didn't use blasters they had musket and they were trying to take back their freedom. It still doesn't make them good characters. They were always nomadic slave owners. Do you wanna know the source every Star Wars expanded universe book ever
Dam so what should we do to the entire white population of the American south?
Eh. I'm not pro-slavery but enslaving the people murdering you off your land isn't really the worst thing.
I’m sorry did you miss the massive disclaimer he has on just about every video that says he considers what’s in that movie and the movies that came before? He explicitly says that. Also said books aren’t technically canon anymore.
@Snellythedog Skill Issue
@@ZX-Gear I’m sorry, the bloody fuck is this supposed to mean? I’m a little lost here.
It’s funny the way we reveal our moral flaws when we talk about seemingly benign things
So if you’re against Anakin killing Tuskens, does this mean you’re vegan? If not, how do you reconcile this with paying for the killing of innocent animals to eat their bodies?
The Dark Side is a path leading to argumentation that many would deem unnatural.
yeah, prequel fans really like using sith techniques
@@minestar2247 They really are full of hate. Not much different than sequel fans TBH.
@@krraika1847 the sequel fans only started being full of hate because of the bullying of prequel fans, which was because of the bullying of the original trilogy fans, despite 7 and 8 being superior to the prequels, and so the cycle of hate will continue
@@minestar2247 Eh, only partially true. I've seen sequel fans completely disregard and attack others and their arguments while the movies were being released. Even Retroblasting in his video, Star Wars: The Sequel Trilogy -- "Canon is Overrated," mentioned he experienced the same thing while the prequels were being released.
You are completely right about this. Children & adults are different.
This is moral cowardice. The same moral cowardice shown by so many "Superheroes" who spare villains because of some code against killing.
Then those same villains end up escaping and destroying more innocent lives. A truly good man would live with whatever guilt they have from such killing so he could protect the innocent.
I wouldn't call a child "innocent" if they did engage in torturing Shmi to death. I would, however, say a child who doesn't know any better should be given a greater amount of mercy than an adult who should know right from wrong. If someone doesn't "know what they do," they still did something bad, they're just much more sympathetic than someone who knew better.
Still, I agree, the narrative doesn't give any indication the children had anything to do with Shmi's torture, so they would be innocent in this situation anyway. I think that the argument the children DID engage in anything is still bad, I just wanted to correct what seems to be a flawed worldview on your perspective.
In terms of a real life example, there was a kid who killed his mom cause she wouldn't buy him a game, and even if it could be argued he doesn't deserve the same punishment as an adult who would do that, he's still guilty.
I don't think we're talking about, like, "innocent in their souls", but innocent in relation to accountability for their actions.
Yes, children in violent contexts, taught to act violently, can be very purposeful in their use of violence. There is a psychological "loss of innocence", but if we're talking accountability, they are "innocent". An adult can commit a crime, while a child is a victim of abuse/neglect.
@@CamiloFHSC I don't really call a flawed mindset that doesn't know better ]'innocent," I just call it more sympathetic: deserving of some form of discipline, even light discipline. I only really use "innocent" to describe "free of evil," but ignorant evils are very common, even among adults. Very few people are "innocent," but "innocent of X, Y, Z" or "guilty, but didn't know better" are very common.
I don't really use "innocent" in regards to court jargain, I use it more broadly.
And I do think there are some situations in which children can be held accountable for their actions, if rare.
@@CamiloFHSCchildren can commit crimes as well. Plenty of teenagers have killed people and been tried as adults with adult punishments because it was proven that the killings were intentional.
How an adult Tusken is supposed to learn what is right and what is wrong?
@@CamiloFHSCnot every kid who commits an atrocity has suffer neglect or abuse thats the problem with that worldview.
It's kind of funny: one of the oldest complaints levelled against the prequels was that they don't make sense...except they do.
I remember one documentary where someone said something to the effect of "yea, audiences may not like that Darth Vader started out as a whiny teenager...but that's exactly the kind of person who would be vulnerable to becoming a villain." It's been years, so it wasn't quite that, but I believe that provides the gist.
If you look At Anakin's story, he starts out as a slave without a father, gets taken from his mother, and becomes more powerful than he ever imagined over a decade...but at his core, he still wants more. He's also befriended by one humble old man who always tells him how much potential he has and the wisdom in following his instincts and desires wherever they lead.
During the second movie, he falls in love, but then finds out his mother was taken by people he likely feared as a child. He finds her, she perishes in his arms due to wounds inflicted by these people, and he goes ballistic, wiping them out.
He's become a powerful walking weapon that has far less than the usual Jedi standard when it comes to self-control, and he now has an obsession with protecting the one's he loves (most especially the woman he pined for over a decade) from harm.
By the next movie, his love for his now wife is worn thin after three years of war and worry, he finds out he's about to become a father and their *secret marriage* will blow up in their faces, getting him kicked out of the only life he's known since slavery and having who-knows-what type of effect on her political career. He's also frustrated with those they work with as he *thinks* they disrespect him and hold him back, even though he's fought many battles and slew the leader of the opposition...though he himself knew that doing so when the man was on his knees and defeated was too far.
On top of that he starts having nightmares that he takes as visions that he'll lose her the same way he lost his mother. He turns to his elderly friend for help, and his friend offers to fix all his problems and give him the power to save those he cares for...provided he put himself under that friend's tutelage and authority, as well as handing everyone else from his fellow knights to the people they protect into that friends power to do with them (or do away with them) as he sees fit. Where once he wiped out innocents in a blind rage, he then does so with cold precision at the temple, yet with no enjoyment. Next his friend sends him to deal with the ones he blames so many of his problems on, and this time, he enjoys every minute of it. In his next battle with his own master and "brother", there is no hesitation: he's completely gone over to the dark side, and in the end, losing his limbs and being debilitated in his suit was probably a mercy for the galaxy at large.
Every step in that process makes sense. You don't need to agree or justify those decisions in order to see how they make sense to his character or how he went from an idealistic warrior monk to an evil space wizard.
Also, as Vader Reviews once noted regarding the "bad" flirting dialog in Episode 2 and 3, the kid was stuck with a bunch of monks for ten years and had probably never been on a date, then spent most of his marriage at the front lines away from her. That's not exactly the recipe for Don Juan levels of charisma when chatting with the woman you've had feelings for since you were a child.
Appreciate you mentioned the shield part that you missed in AOTC. In my comment on the other video I actually addressed how the point of it is to stop sudden danger. Which fits with our understanding of how Jedi’s powers to sense danger ahead of time works. Can do more explaining if needed.
In defense of Padme's character in this scene: do we know if she has any idea who or what the Tuskens even are?
She's never seen one, and literally all she knows about them is exactly what she's been told by Cliegg and Owen, which is that they've kidnapped and tortured an innocent woman for no reason. She doesn't have a super vested reason to believe they're nothing more than just a semi-intelligent pack-living alien species. A species that's certainly "above" a common animal but not necessarily a truly sapient "people" with language and culture.
She can tell enough that Anakin was so upset to know that it was wrong. But in the actual moment where he was freaking out emotionally, and she was working with fairly limited information, I don't think it's unrealistic for her to comfort him. She doesn't outwardly justify his actions or anything, she just tries to calm him down.
Source. One could argue from the Book of Boba that the children participated in it. As they did it to Boba. I think a pretty decent argument can be made. especially since there are different Tusken tribes and some of them known to be rather barbaric than noble. In the same way that Some Native american tribes were quite savage and brutal(even before the settlers arrived) whilst others were friendly and honorable
I can't get behind the Native American analogy, I know you mean well, but reading that makes me wonder a little. What savage acts have they done? Unless, you wouldn't equate tribal wars among Europeans as savage, if tribal wars are your answer, but I must know at least.
As you yourself point out: Different tribes can behave differently. A group of children from an entirely different tribe acting brutally decades later doesn't really give us any details about what the children that Anakin massacred might or might not have done.
It actually doesn't matter whatsoever. A kid could do heinous misdeeds and it wouldn't justify killing them. They still wouldn't be culpable because they are beholden to what the adults in their life instruct them to do. They have no agency.
@@Meh.357 What can't you get about it? Some tribes were known to be extremely brutal to each other and to the settlers while others were generally peaceful.
I feel like the "what savage acts have they done" is just kind of being willfully ignorant since some of the terrible torturous things that native americans have done to settlers as well as other tribes is well documented.
@@Meh.357Scalping was a Native practice, and the Comanche severed the tendons in the ankles of prisoners (maybe just women) and dumped them in the wilderness.
10:58 - I feel like this was written with one hand...
I feel like 2 completely seperate things are being argued here.
Sheev argues:
Is it morally justified for Anakin to murder an entire village (involving innocents), if some of it's inhabitants are responible for torturing his mother (and many others) to death?
Comments argue:
Would the extinction of the Tusken race be beneficial to the "more civilised" society from a practical standpoint?
To answer the first question: No, it's not. Anakin wanted revenge beyond anything and was guided by his hatred. Potentially protecting future victims was never on his mind. Even then, that doesn't justify killing the kids. It's literally what the video is about, so I don't feel the need to talk any further about this one.
To answer the second question: If we were to throw all ethics out of the window, then yes. If Tusken raiders ceased to exist, the lives of other Tatooine people would improve (or at least we have no reason to believe otherwise).
People are using this point as justification for Anakin's actions, but there is a lot of problems with this. It often hinges on the idea that "Tuskens are inferior, and we (as a more advanced race) should put our interests before theirs". First of all, let's answer the question: Are they actually closer to wild animals rather than human beings? From what we've been shown in the movies, not really. They are pretty primitive, sure, but they do show signs of communication and culture. That would make them most akin to humans from only a few thousand years ago, and thus sentient. If you think that they cannot be considered as such because of their actions, I would like to remind you that NOTHING they ever did goes beyond human cruelty.
If you want to somehow justify Tusken genocide, you would at the very least need to make the case that "Their entire civilisation is so savage, that it's for the greater good to kill them all", which is something we don't have enough context to determine. As far as we know, they might just consider other species as invaders of their homeland (something Sheev actually mentions in the video). Additionally, since we never see them being violent towards each other, there is no reason to even believe that they are culturally conditioned to act this way (despite the fact that many just assume this to be the case). Personally, I would say Tusken people feel justified to do whatever they want to whom they see as a foreign threat. As a civilisation thousands of years ahead of them, we should be the ones better than this.
You might say I'm pulling this out of my ass, but so would be saying the opposite considering how little we actually know. I find deeper speculation based on not very well thought out worldbuilding to be pointless, so there isn't much more to say here.
But all of this is neither here nor there. Not a single one of you could convince me that Anakin would consider these factors. Even IF we were to assume killing the Tuskens was the right thing to do, his intents were that of revenge for his mother. It still wouldn't be a moral justification of his actions, and therefore irrelevant to the topic of the video.
I'm sure those Tusken children would have grown up as moral and upstanding citizens!!!
It doesn't matter, they didn't yet
only if they were given the chance
BUT, they weren't given the chance
@@minestar2247Exactly.
@@CRYSTAL_CUSTOMSchirp
@@Rebelnutt whats your point?
Btw, the Clone Wars animated series is full of Obi-Wan and Anakin committing horrendous war crimes.
Counterpoint: Anakin hates sand.......... Someone had to pay!
There's actual lore reason why Twi leks are coomer bait? I approve this.
7:38 to be fair, the language of a scene with Admiral Holdo and Poe in TLJ was meant to convey that he is reckless and foolish while she is clever and wise, but I don’t think many people took that seriously
I guess Anakin WAS right about chilling the younglings. I mean, look at the unstoppable violence the Jedi order has used across the galaxy. Look at how many Geonosians they literally chopped to pieces, while on their own planet, only to push further the interests of their openly unfair and corrupt republic.
And those Jedi are taught, since they are babies, that they can just go around using their superpowers to enforce their will so long as it doesn't contradict their religion (and most especially if it also aligns with the will of the republic). What hope did those children have to ever come up better than the adult Jedi?
I mean we meet several of them after the fall of the Jedi, and they still go about cutting people to pieces if it serves their personal interest- it's clearly an inherently violent culture; you're basically saving them from themselves by exterminating them when they are small.
Disclamer: *This is my humble opinion*
Honestly I'd of understood if Anakin only killed the Tuskens involved with Shmi's torture and the ones attacking him (I'm not at all saying it would have been the best course of action nor the moral high road, just that I could see why he did what he did). But yeah killing literally all of them even those uninvolved was pretty messed up.
Yay you understand the homework
Silence is violence. Remember? They were perfectly fine to stand by while they tortured someone else to death.
@@jasperzanovich2504 No it isn't. Complacency is an issue in its own right, but only an idiot would actually argue that it makes them just as guilty as the actual perpetrator(s).
IIRC, and it's still a bit flimsy, Boba killing the beast out in the desert wasn't the whole reason the tribe accepted him. He could have let the creature kill the kid (one of his tormentors), but he didn't.
He freed himself but didn't retaliate, and he also protected one of the tribes most vulnerable despite the pain the tribe put him through.
For lack of a better way to say it, Boba was no longer "one of the colonizers". Just another man making his way through the universe.