Does John 6 support Calvinism?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Personal Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, goes through John 6 and the Calvinistic presumptions to contrast with the Traditionalist interpretation.
For more on this topic please visit www.soteriology101.com
The claim of calvinists that men cannot even recognise their sinfulness and their need of salvation is dismantled by the fact that when Adam and Eve sinned they saw that they were naked (that they were sinners who had disobeyed God). This is why they hid among the trees when they heard the Lord coming in the garden. Thankfully for them, and for us, the Lord God gave them coats of skins to cover their nakedness, just as the blood of Christ washes away our sins today if we confess our sinfulness and our need of Him, and dresses us in robes of righteousness.
This ministry is such a blessing! Thank you for providing it!
Thank you once again Dr Flowers for your commitment to bring a different perspective to or in my opinion a better or right way to interpret these passages. We need more scholars like yourself who are not Calvinist. I am forever thankful for finding your channel and your Facebook page. Keep up the good work sir. I am looking to contribute to this topic myself on my channel as i get more insight from man like you.
Leighton is deceived and deceiving you!
Well I believe you are deceived my friend. I have been listening to him for a while now and I firmly believe that is in line with the scriptures. He is taking a stand to oppose a doctrine that has gone almost unopposed for centuries. He is a voice to many who are intimidated to openly oppose the false teachings in our day. I do not agree with him on everything that he teaches but he is on point for the most part. Calvinism is not biblical and it has to be opposed.
Also Dr Flowers does all this in humility and honor unlike many others on line who are not very nice about.
You are most likely a Calvinist which is totally understandable for you to claim that he is deceived. He was deceived for most of his life but no more, he dropped that TULIP 😂
@@roylange2248 Flowers follows careful exegesis and is fair minded. If you have a specific intellectual objection please state it. "You are deceived" Carries no weight here.
@@roylange2248 Since you are a Calvinist, you realize that it doesn't matter, right? The Elect are coming to God regardless of what Dr. Flowers says. And God has obviously pre-destined Dr. Flowers to teach free will.
@@johndoe-ln4oi Exactly...Same answer I always give.....:)
John 12:32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
That's in Red so its important ;)
"draw" can defined as to lead or invite, it made sense because its through Christ only we can restore our relationship to the Father because he(Jesus)is the only way, the truth and the life in John 14:6
All of the Bible is important.
@@myraride9563 Not sure, but I think he was making the point that Jesus was interested in drawing (all) to himself and not only a small few as Calvinism teaches.
If he was interested in bringing all, why could God not complete his interest? Or God always fulfills his interest, so those who he takes interest in will be brought to him, so all who he takes interest will be brought.
The word all has limitations
Means all races
Elect from every nation!
Like someone who invites people to his house
I'd like to welcome you (all)
This reminded me of years ago when a friend and I saw a
bright light in the night sky. Curious we drove toward the light. Several times
we thought we had reached it only to find it was still somewhere further ahead.
After driving 25 miles we found it on a parking lot advertising a local
business. We were drawn to that light. The closer we got the stronger we were
drawn. We were drawn by the light which was its purpose. But neither that light
nor the business drug us there. We saw the light inviting us to that business
and we willing followed it. The gospel message
drws people just like that light drew us.
I do hope that, unlike the true Light, you weren't ripped off your money by fake advertising. ;)
Another thing to add, that I didn't hear you mention about John 6:37, is that in verse 35 Jesus says: "I am the bread of life: HE THAT COMETH TO ME shall never hunger; and HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME shall never thirst." It seems pretty clear that those who the Father gives the Son, are the SAME who FIRST... "COME TO" and "BELIEVE ON" Christ! 🙂
That´s right but who CAN come to him acording to the next 7 verses?
Isn´t Jesus already saying "HE that cometh to me" He is not saying "Every single person is able to come to me becaus he is drawn by the father so they can chose to believe in Me..."
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco John 6:45 points out that they will ALL be taught (i.e. drawn) by God. See also John 12:32 where Christ says the he will draw (same Greek word as in 6:44) ALL men to Himself.
@Owen Goodspeed Who is "all" in John 6:45 though? The verse says "they will all be taught..." This is clearly referring to the same group that was drawn and will be raised up in the preceding verse, and those who have heard and learned from the father in the next sentence. If it was referring to all people, that would lead to universalism.
@@brentmidlam1029 Of course it wouldn't lead to Universalism!
Note the qualifier in 6:45, "Everyone who has heard the Father AND LEARNED FROM HIM comes to me."
Not everyone who hears is willing to learn (cf Matthew 23:37) but they will ALL (and since there is nothing in the text to say otherwise we must go with natural and obvious meaning of the word) be taught by God.
@@brentmidlam1029 You also have 6:44 wrong. Noone CAN come unless they are drawn. That does not mean that all who are drawn will come. Only those who are drawn AND come will be raised up at the last day.
If you insist that all who are drawn will come then it is you who must be a Universalist! (see John 12:32)
💗Dr Flowers, I love how you have a will to learn and don't want to miss represent Calvinists. You didn't. You explained perfectly what Calvinists would teach. If anyone I would love to discuss with, it would be you. I love your videos and watch them all the time. Personally, I believe in the Doctrines of Grace. I think it really shows God's character and His grace. Love your ministry♡. Love you Dr Flowers. ✟God bless✟! ᰔᩚ
If there were more people being gracious like you (At least based on this one comment :P), who believe in the doctrines of grace, I think the divide between calvinists and arminians would be alot easier to look past for conversation and Christian fellowship.
@@lonelyguyofficial8335
Thanks! A lot of people forget the last part of 1 Peter 3:15 when it says "yet with gentleness and respect". Our minds should be set on glorifying God and not destroying our opponents.
Also, I see now that I didn't have a great knowledge of the doctrines of grace as I do now and seeing how Dr. Flowers represents our side isn't the best.
But that to the side, thanks for this lovely comment. ❤️ God bless.
In short, yes I am drawn to the Father! But it isn't because God summons me like some robotic creature responding to a command. I am also drawn to my wife and to my children because I love them and I want to draw near to them. To a much lesser extent, I am also drawn to the ocean, and its many activities, because I enjoy the ocean's environment, not because it has implanted some micro-chip in my brain that forces me to it against my own will. To all of these things, and above all to our Heavenly Father, I am drawn because I love them.
It would be just like God to raise up a man so loving to Calvinists yet so good at refuting their theology named “Flowers.” Well played, Lord. Well played.
Hypernikao Productions
I hear ya, Tulip's used to be my favorite flower...: - (
Stacey 6171 so you hate the five doctrines taught IN THE HOLY BIBLE??
Hypernikao Productions he is not good at refuting tulip because those are five main BIBLE doctrines explicitly taught there.
Roy Lange, r u another of those doctrine witch hunters? Chill out and listen for once!
I don't hate any doctrine taught by God. I hate the misinterpretation taught by Calvin and the Calvinites:)
Ty Dr. Flowers
It really took me awhile to comprehend what you’re saying because I started with the Calvinist theology/view as an infant Christian since 2017??.. I remembered when you had that debate with James white and I was like.. James is killing it YEAHHHH. This Flowers guy is weak.. for quite sometimes I could not understand your explanations and interpretations until recently.. most likely it is my comprehension level.. I needed that “IRRESISTIBLE ABILITY” to comprehend.. (same with Calvinistic language at the time)
The way you speak is so fast and swift for my brain to grasp.. I had to constantly go back and listen again and again..
I wish, if you are able to, for future reference… speak slower perhaps?? Breakdown / explain more simple terms for baby Christian like myself to understand better.. (also credit to Mike Winger.. he helped out a lot with me transitioning out of Calvinist mindset. The way Mike explain hard to understand passages in simpler terms help so much)
All in all, ty Dr. Flowers
May God uses you mightily and may your rewards in heaven be bountifully. God bless.
May His “irresistible grace” drags you where He predestined you to. (Joking)
"Surely I was brought forth in iniquity; I was sinful when my mother conceived me." - Psalm 51:5
Horrible translation. The Hebrew is clear that "in sin my mother conceived me".
How about this way.. jhon 6:37
All that the father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
The Greek word for gives (didomi) which can be translated as to "bring forth"
The Greek word for come (heko)
which can be translated as to be present.
Comes plural (erchomia) can be translated as coming from one place to another. (From unbelive to believe?) " all that the father (brings forth) will (be present), and the one who comes from (erchomia) from unbelive to believe I will certainly not cast out.
Hey guys I found out the music thanks. It is,' AM I Wrong" By Nico & Vinz, Damien Esobar. I like the music and now the words to the theme.
"One has to ignore the entire context of John 12..."
They have to ignore the main theme of the Bible, which is the WILL OF GOD to be done on earth as it is in heaven. What is that WILL, and why does it have to be done in the first place? If you understand why there is a Bible in the first place, and why God has to fix things in the first place, you couldn't even be a Calvinist.
FREEWILL is a necessity or you cannot have love or justice. If you don't have love and justice you cannot have righteousness. You cannot have God without those standards, God said as much.
This channel helps me a lot.
The teachers of Calvinism aren't "simply misinterpreting Scripture." They pervert the very character of God and the gospel of Christ.
Calvinists don't understand either the character of God or the enterprise. Maybe you've heard or read that the Calvinist god has "in times passed decreed everything that comes to pass."
Do you know what that means? It means simply, that the reason you sin (and therefore need saving in the first place) is because your god desired, designed, and decreed that you must.
Your god then, having ensured that you would sin then uses that sin as justification for having already damned you.
Like I said, Calvinists pervert the character of God and the gospel.
It isn't a matter of what God could do. It is a matter of how Calvinism perverts reality.
It's actually right out of the Institutes. But let's explore a bit. Are you ever going to do anything that hasn't been decreed that you will do? Are there any "rogue molecules?"
Or maybe a bit slower, perhaps.
Does the Calvinist god decree and ensure all that happens?
Does "all that happens" include all evil things that happen?
If your god has decreed all evil that happens, we can deduce that it is the (and every) specific evil that your god wanted to occur. If the evil that occurs is because it is included in "all," it must be that your god desired it to happen, designed what would happen, and decreed that it must happen, just as your god desired that it would.
But we can turn the question around, if your god hasn't decreed the evil, how has it occurred? Is your God not sovereign?
It is readily apparent that my description of your theory is spot on.
It doesn't do anything for your argument that it is self contradictory. It is simply illogical to have a deterministic theory and then declare that the determiner isn't responsible for what has been determined.
@@HoytRoberson you just stated that the god you serve and worship is a puny, powerless, unworthy idol who has no control over anything. Including you. Thank God that he is merciful or you may die at his hand like Aaron's sons. Read the account in Holy Scripture of the real God in Genesis 20:1-7!
@@HoytRoberson "you don't know the scripture or the power of God" Jesus
Greg, you're just spouting Calvinist nonsense - which is to be expected. You truly have no idea about the character of God, the gospel, or the enterprise. Your god is a self centered, self glorifying god who not only desires, designs, decrees and ensures your sin, but then uses that sin as an excuse to damn you to eternal torment "for its own glory." Your system has no love and can have no love in it. It is a caricature of Christianity, and completely hollow. Flail all you want, your system defines itself as the complete antithesis of Christianity.
'Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, '
II Timothy 1:8-9
'Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”'
John 3:7-8
Thanks again, Leighton.
The Lazarus analogy kills me. The proper analogy is actually the resurrection. The text plainly teaches it through Martha's discussion with Jesus. Jesus calls in a loud voice to Lazarus..just as He will at the resurrection. My 2 cents..
We will all receive the "Lazarus call" when the Lord Jesus returns.
Lazarus wasn't even un regenerated in the first place, and if all that is not bad enough, there is a parable made spaicificly for teaching about being dead then alive, they look right over it, its the prodigal son
It seems, just reading, those who are "drawn" are those who hear the gospel. So just preach the gospel and make disciples. Why a person believes or disbelieves is not information another fallen man should be concerned with. Mr. Flowers, the short story of "cleaning your room" was great, thank you for the work of preaching truth, which is NOT considered "calvinism", not according to Christ and His word that is.
This is a fantastic video. Great clarifying teaching!!!
If the word "draw" ALWAYS means "forcibly dragged" then Calvinists must account for the use of the word in John 12:32
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [forcibly DRAG?] all people to myself”
Of course, like every word this one has more than one possible meaning. We do not have the right to cherry-pick whichever definition best fits our presuppositions; especially when the overwhelming consensus of translations (I counted 27) render the word as DRAWS in John 12:32.
JimiSurvivor people, men, or mankind are NOT in the original Greek...so all what? ALL THE SHEEP as only the sheep hear The Lord voice.
@@gideonboots1008
I agree that those who listen and follow Him are "sheep." Goats do not follow Him. Wolves do not follow Him. On the other hand, as long as we are in this present world our nature and destiny can change. This is pointed out in the metaphor of the Potter's House means in Jeremiah 18:1-10. The vessels either rebel or obey. Once they make that decision the vessel has no power about the USE God makes of that decision in his Plan. The same chapter says that our destiny can be altered if we change our disposition towards God.
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I find it strange that Calvinists use being DEAD and being BLIND as metaphors for being unsaved and UNABLE to RESPOND to the gospel. However, blind people in the NT often recognized their need even when they could not understand the full nature of their impairment as would be true in the case of a person born blind. Blind people were totally unable to heal themselves but they could CRY OUT to Jesus for healing...and BELIEVE in HIM.
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27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 After Jesus had entered the house, the
blind men came to Him. “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” He asked. “Yes, Lord,” they answered. 29 Then He touched their eyes and said, “According to your FAITH will it be done to you.”
(Matthew 9:27-29)
@@JimiSurvivor Amen! I often say if I where to believe Calvinist doctrines I would be a universalist before I was a Calvinist. That verse really shows why that would be. There is less scripture to ignore being a universalist than there is being a Calvinist.
Yeah and if you where chosen like the Calvinist say how would you know what you where chosen for you could be used to preach for the good and be a vessel of destruction that way it a confusion but god said he was not s god of confusion
@@gideonboots1008The King James Bible version translators were all more proficient in English, Greek, and Hebrew than any scholar alive in the last 300 years. The lexicon is for understanding of deeper meaning, not to change the text itself. Read the book called New Age Bible Versions by Gail Ripplinger and keep the devil and Revelation in mind.
Glory To GOD!!!
Thank you so very much Leighton Flowers!
One thing I've learned over the years listening to different Bible teachers is if you want to find out what they believe is not to listen to their sermons but to listen to their answers to questions. Billy Graham was not just an ecumenical preacher he actually believed that someone could be saved believing the new testiment is false and the Koran and following Mohammad is the way.
He said that in 1996 while speaking with Larry King, an atheist, and again speaking with Robert Schuler, a universalist. This idea of mine becomes clear when you listen to John Piper question Rick Warren. Warren is very good (at twisting scripture) when he has chance to prepare a message, but get
into questions on doctrine he gets lost and has a tendency to just agree with whomever he is speaking with.
👏👏👏👏
You can sum it up in one sentence: do not mistake a necessary for a sufficient condition.
video starts 6:05
I just heard Voodie Bachman teach that same crap ( Calvin ) wow ! John Calvin was a mere man !
It should be added, that in John 12:32 the word "people "or "men "was added and not in the original text(Strong's). According to the Greek, the statement is "... I will draw all to Me".
So a calvinist should say:
John 3:16
For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten son, that those who were elect will not perish but have an everlasting life.
is that right?
the issue is they always sidestep verses like this and interprete to be what it is not. The problem with calvinists is they read the Bible based on TULIP rather than what the Bible has to say about TULIP.
The john3v16 was a conversation between jesus and nicodemus
Not a sermon preached by jesus
Actually he spoke in parables so they wouldnt understand altho he
Did warn people to repent!
Where can I find this intro song?
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Hope your channel gets much bigger. You’re a blessing, exposing the false Calvinist doctrine.
What part about Calvinism is false doctrine?
Doctrine of demons/
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Believing you don't have a free will is basically giving MANY neo Calvanist a license to sin (LACIVIOUSNESS) When sin is practiced it puts one in BONDAGE read 2Peter2/& Jude it's very demonic & sin must be Repented ↩️of & not repeated ♻️(hence wallowing in more/dog eating it's vomit) don't depart from the Faith that was once delivered you & give heed to seducing Spirits & doctrines of demons / if man has a free will WHY did Jesus say we MUST worship Him in Spirit & IN TRUTH(John4:24) &what do you know the first piece of armor Paul says to put on an Ephesians 6 is..."THE BELT OF TRUTH" why do you suppose that is🤔 we'll look around bretheren(it starts with the "Light of the body is the EYE Matt6:22-24/Job31:9-11/Prov6:25-27/ the battlefield is heavy with the bodies of men that were given over to lust & "dropped their Belt" just from a LOOK (Matt5:27-28) never Repented therefore searing their conscience & their just going through the motions awaiting judgement ♻️♻️♻️PRIDE is @ the "ROOT" of Calvanism👇
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
@@andrewdurfee2891 Calm down! Calvinism is not a doctrine of demons, but of man. So is every other doctrine, "Holy books" etc etc.
Every religiom was invented either to ensalve individualism, spirituality and freedom in general. Power hungry men create religions in order to satisfy thier needs.
@@erykpatrykchudy5675 The Doctrine of Christ is of God NOT man. That's why He said in John 3 "You MUST be born again" (your Spirit must be reBorn with His Holy Spirit)
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
@@erykpatrykchudy5675 1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Christs Spirit WILL NOT lead you to Murder others with whom you don't agree with!
Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
You're not just saved, because you say John 3:16, just browse RUclips, and look at the phonies that leave the faith never had. A momentary failure doesn't make you unsaved. A life style change speaks for itself. If I go from fisherman to a cowboy. I've changed professions and it's visible for all to sea. The Holy Spirit is relentless in calling his children believers back to the faith.
Matthew 16:13-20
New American Standard Bible 1995
Peter’s Confession of Christ
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist; and others, [a]Elijah; but still others, [b]Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.” 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are [c]the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon [d]Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
The Bible tells me I reap what I sow the Calvinists say I reap what God has sowed for me
I am from India...can I join online theology course..
What about verse 37?
All that the Father gives me WILL come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Please write back, I would love an answer for this?
All questions are answered about the chapter when one reaches 6-64: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Note: JESUS knew who would believe and who would not. NOT WHO WAS CHOSEN AS AN ELECT PERSON. Note: Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING.
I was hoping he would address that too and later on in the chapter where Jesus compares the flesh and the spirit as the means WHY we can’t come to him unless the spirits enables:
“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."”
John 6:63-65 ESV
@@BackToOrthodoxy God gave us ears (those that have ears let them hear) and brains to think. Are we corrupt? Yup. Can ALL be saved if they respond to the Word of God? Yup. WILL all respond to the Word? Nope. Jesus knows who will respond and who will not. Did the Holy Spirit descend upon the disciples before they believed? Nope. He came at Pentacost AFTER the disciples had been with Jesus. So why would the Holy Spirit come to help those that don't believe. According to Calvinism that's the way it works. God says faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. Calvinism says one can't hear. You are correct. The Father allows those that accept Jesus to claim Him as savior.
Maybe emphasis should not be placed on the word “will” in the verse but on “all that the Father gives me”. Are we all given? Just now beginning to dive into theology and differing views, so just thinking on that, enjoying reading the comments.
You have to ask yourself, *"according to the CONTEXT, who are those that God allows to come to Jesus?"* The answer is found in *Jn.**6:45* , *"everyone who has HEARD & LEARNED from the Father COMES"* to Jesus. In the same chapter, these Jews had ALREADY rejected the Father by rejecting Moses, and because of their rejection of the Father, they were not allowed to COME to Jesus. The one who hears & learns from the Father, is granted access to the Son, much like Cornelius.
Those who rejected Moses, were not allowed to come to the Son.
Blessings to you.
This makes so much sense.
I’ve watched Leighton cover John 6 in his videos, but he seems to always avoid verses 63 and 64 because they give immediate context to verse 65 when Jesus says “THIS is why I told you…” read those verses and decide for yourself if Leighton is teaching what Jesus is actually saying.
If God and His word are synonymous, then any one exposed to the gospel is by default being drawn.
Thus fulfilling John 12:32 _And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself_
I grew up in Christianity and never heard of Calvinism until a few weeks ago. After looking it up online, I was shocked.
finnaaallyyyy.... my my weekly fix of flower has arived
Armand Esterhuizen you get a weekly fix of false teaching?
Roy Lange yip, its what God ordained for me
Good answer to a silly questions ;)
@@theoffensivegamer9943 touche
Think about this:
First of all, I believe it's important to acknowledge the difference between mere belief that something is true and saving faith (trusting) in that Truth. We know that we are to profess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in the gospel with our hearts. I don't believe we can have faith (trust) in Christ without first knowing Him in some sense or receiving a revelation of His glory. So I believe that God prepares our hearts in humility (beginning stage of drawing us) beforehand to receive the truth. We have to understand and agree with our need for repentance too. And it's our choice to believe or not...in other words it is also our choice to open our hearts or not. I think many have received the truth in their mind and maybe believe on a superficial level, but unfortunately keep their heart closed to the truth because of pride or other reasons (i.e. unwillingness to repent). Anyway, if we do choose to open our hearts to Him, then He is able to shine the light of His glory inside as a powerful revelation of Himself (also part of His drawing us). As His glory is subtly revealed to us and we experience His presence also in that moment, it is a form of intimacy (knowing), and then we have a good reason to place our trust in Him and are then granted saving faith along with the gift of the Holy Spirit as we are regenerated (born again and united to His Spirit).
We know Jesus said He would draw all men unto Himself, but He is obviously not the Father. So the question is in this statement: No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws them....does the Father also draw all men in some way/degree or just some? Because we know not all people come to the Son (only those given by the Father do). Or is it simply saying that nobody can come to Jesus in their own ability? (That the necessary condition is being drawn by the Father)
According to the Bible, all you need to believe is the Gospel, that Jesus is the Son of God and He died for your sins and He rose again on the third day. It is the pure and simple Gospel that is "the power unto salvation." There is no other foundation that can be laid.
Also, a need for repentance? Repentance means to change your mind. You change your mind from unbelief to belief. It's actually one action, not two separate ones.
Also, Jesus says in John 6: 64 & 65 that the reason He said that nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws him is because He knew who did not believe! In other words, if you believe, God draws you to Jesus. Clear and simple .
Does anybody know the name of the music for the theme song? I know the words are added just the music part?
40:00-44:00 Flowers appears to say that a "gift" can be accepted or rejected (as it relates to forgiveness of sin or salvation). What about the "gifts of the Spirit"? Can we reject the gifts of the Spirit? Do you have a choice of what "Spiritual gift" you will get? No, we don't. It is the gift of God and we have no say in the matter .... at all. Here's another one....Does our "understanding" of the mysteries of Scripture depend on us or God? It depends totally upon God's Holy Spirit on whether or not our eyes are opened to "see" a mystery. We have no say or control in the matter, and it is a gift of God to "see" or understand Biblical mysteries. Here's another one... Do we get to accept or reject a name or title that God gives us? No, we have absolutely no say or input in the matter. It is a gift of God.
Flowers wants us to believe "saving faith" is like a piece of cake we can accept or refuse. The ability to "see", understand, and believe the Biblical mysteries and truth of who Jesus Christ is and what the Gospel message means so that we see our sinfulness and need of a Savior to pay for and forgive our sin-debt ... is a gift that we cannot choose. Either you believe or you don't. When you see the football game end, you know who won and who lost. We don't get to reject or accept the truth. We can suppress or deny it , but deep down we know what the truth is. If we put our hand in a pot of boiling water, we don't get to accept or reject whether the water is hot. When we wake up in the morning Sun, we don't get to accept or reject the Sun ... or the rain. They are gifts of God on the just and the unjust and we have no say in the matter. The point is that there are gifts that you cannot refuse or change the "reality" of. Some may try to deny or suppress the truth, but it is pointless in the end.
Falling away and refusing / neglecting a gift is real. 1 Timothy 4:1, 14, 16. 1 Cor 15:2. Heb 2:3, 6:4
Being given a gift based on your desire for it is real (1 Cor 12:31).
Being appointed to a leadership office for which one may be gifted starts with your desire for it (1 Tim 3:1)
You don't have to reject the truth of who wins or looses the game, it's a fact, you just pick another team and watch them!! Your choice! And if the water get's to hot, prompting of the Holy Spirit, you reach over and turn it off! Then it cools down and you get a reprobate mind! Your choice!!
You can neglect or misuse your spiritual gifts to where it is of no spiritual use. The gift of salvation can never be of no spiritual use. Comparing the gift of salvation to spiritual gifts is not a good comparison.
Why does the debate that has divided the Church for millennia still continue to divide? Why can't folk bring themselves to take God at His Word? God elects from eternity past and draws and yet man clearly must receive and believe and how that all works doesn't really matter does it? So we proclaim to the lost their need to receive and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary as the all-sufficient, propitiating, justifiying act on our behalf that satisfied the Father's just wrath toward sin. And to the true Saints who face persecution, discouragement, difficulties, tradgedies in life, we encourage by reminding of God's eternal love and grace who elected them from eternity past and will never leave nor forsake to the end / for the purpose that their souls, like John the Baptist's when struggling with doubt, might be uplifted to the very throne of grace in the heavenlies so that they keep fighting / agonizing the good fight / agony of faith. It seems the issue is not either / or, but rather Amen and Amen. Does God choose or does man choose? YES! Jesus proclaimed both sides of the coin so I reckon I'm just simple minded enough to accept that if it was good enough for the Lord Jesus, it's good enough for me. There is soooooo much more to proclaim in Scripture beyond elevating this ONE divisive issue to the place of being the ONLY issue in life. Is it evil to simply be Cal-ditionalists? Or Tradi-vinists? Or Cal-minians? The bottom line is that sinners must receive and believe (John 1:12) and yet must be born of / from God (John 1:13).
I can see why so many people go to hell. People so easily allow themselves to be deceived by intellectual arguments rather than being instructed by the Spirit of the Lord.
Pelagianism and semi pelagianism was condemned by the church over 500 years ago. It all boils down to, you are either saved by God's grace and faith or your saved by works righteousness.
Flowers' (no relation to me) view is neither pelagianism nor semi-pelagianism. Rather, it's the Classic Arminian position, or that of the garden variety Wesleyan view. Classic arminians and calvinists are both Christians; affirming salvation is by God's grace through faith apart from works. cf. Ephesians 2:8-9.
False dichotomy. Works DOES NOT EQUAL faith. Paul makes this clear when he compares and contrasts works and faith. Faith is NOT a work of the Law.
I'm no nothing about greek, but I can't find a definition of helco that says "enable." It seems to always mean drag or entice inwardly or something. I'm not a calvinist I just wanna be objective. Anyone have any resources?
Follow the teachings of Christ makes you a Christian.
Follow the teachings of Calvin makes you a Calvinist. Why identify your doctrine after a man.
Many Calvinists don't like the label either because it looks like they are following a man when they are just following Biblical doctrine, but different interpretations of Scripture often get labeled to speed up the conversation so you don't have to explain 80 hours of doctrinal proofs when a "label" can sum it up in two seconds. For example, Pre-Tribulation, "A-mill", "Post-Trib", "Preterist", etc... are labels that help when talking about eschatology.
Sonny H
The problem is men use knowledge of men to explain wisdom of God without the wisdom of the Spirit. If I cannot explain scripture to even a child.. I truly don’t understand what I believe.
If my children were in harms way? I, as a loving Father, would not hesitate, if need be, would go against their free will, and drag them to safety! For any True Disciple of Christ, understands The simplicity of The Doctrine Of Christ! Any True Disciple understands the simplicity of the parable of the wheat and the tares!
Excellent presentation. We are all at one point under wrath, but because we listen to the Good News and received it in our hearts, we are no longer under his wrath.
"All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."...Ephesians 2:3.
Notice it says "Like the Rest" were under wrath. According to Calvanism Jehovah changed his mind on predestination for some. It is safe to say, according to Calvanism, God changed his mind on some and un-predestined them.
I found it interesting that Leighton used 2 Cor 5:20 to support his claim that the gospel is Christ's appeal to the lost. Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:20 to Christians. When Paul said, "I beseech you, be reconciled to God," he was writing to believers. Not only that but in verse18 Paul states we're already reconciled. Paul was urging believers who were already reconciled to be reconciled.
The one argument that ends all disputes when it comes to the "traditionalist" view is the personal experience of Paul. Did Christ 'appeal to Paul' to encourage him to choose to believe? Or, did He knock him off his horse, blind Him with light, and reveal the truth of the gospel without any other man's involvement? Intellectual honesty cannot say Paul was presented with the option to accept or reject Jesus, and therefore, Paul would not teach what he did not experience.
I'm not a Calvinist - the concept of limited atonement is anathema to the cross - but I do believe the Scriptures are abundantly clear in saying faith can only come from God. Jesus is the author of faith, and faith COMES by hearing the spoken word of God. (Heb 12:2, Romans 10:17) It doesn't say Jesus authors the option to believe, and it doesn't say the opportunity to have faith comes when you hear the spoken word of God. When God speaks, faith comes. Nowhere in the NT does it say we are given the option to accept or reject Jesus and must choose to believe to be saved. I challenge anyone to show me one Scripture that says this. :)
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31
@@nathanbolton4410 I agree.
What does this Scripture, and the rest of the New Testament say about how faith comes to a person? Where does it say that faith is a choice a person must make?
Thanks
Peter (FakeYouOut.com)
It's implicit in the narrative. Some reject (refuse to believe), and some believe.
@@joefrescoln Do those who were appointed to unbelief suffer torment forever? ((1 Peter 2:8)
Who did Jesus preach the gospel to in 1 Peter 3:18-20?
Thanks
Someone I missed your comment Nathan. Thanks. I hope/trust all is well in your world. 👍👍
This is a case of narcigesis. Jesus was talking about his chosen disciples before the cross, not you. Stop reading yourself into the text.
Worst bible version I've heard of, is the personalised version where everytime it has something to say about anyone, replace words like him, her, you ect with the bible readers name.
How can I do it...
There is a logical difference between:
"Passage X supports doctrine/practice Y"
""Passage X is not incompatible with doctrine/practice Y"
"Passage X presupposes/requires doctrine/practice Y"
"Passage X can legitimately be interpreted as supporting doctrine/practice Y".
In practice, of course, theological arguments from the Bible are seldom or never based on a single text. But that is beside the present point.
These, and other distinctions, are not mere quibbling; they have a profound influence on how a text - any text, not just those in the Bible - is used as evidence or proof of doctrine. And these distinctions help to explain why Christians equipped with the same Bible, and asking the help of the same Spirit, end up with different doctrines (derived often from the same texts)and with different conclusions from those texts and doctrines. To add to the fun, different groups are often not explicit about how their theological tradition affects their exegesis.
Even blinding light and big fish are not sufficient to irresistibly compel compliance - Jonah spent a lot of time running away, and still complained about what God wanted to do.
But Jonah did it, didn't he? And God accomplished His purpose through the use of Jonah, didn't He. So, what do you say to that?
@@brianrush7065 Jonah decided to runaway, God sent a storm, then Jonah decided to jump ship because he didn't want the ship and crew to drown, and then God sent a whale. God calls we respond, God provides.
Great teaching.
Im trying to understand traditionalism a bit. Does it imply that within the elect group God doesn't know who each exact individual is? If my understanding isn't correct, how does God know who each individual is according to traditionalism/provisionism?
Really striving hard to understand this in greater detail.
Thanks.
Because God is omniscient.
Does Flowers always appeal to some kind of emotional response by interpreting the text by creating his own parable/story? For example: describing how cleaning your room somehow applies to scripture and if you make your baby clean his room but doesn't then punishment is unfair. I have never read that anywhere in the Bible before can someone help me understand? Or can you just please start reading what the scripture says without your own thoughts Leighton. Scripture does say that Gods thoughts are not our thoughts and as he is higher in heaven so are his thoughts higher than ours. It's clear please exegete the text...
Mr. Flowers thank you for your podcast. If a pastors excuse for only using material written by ppl who are Calvanist is bc they are the only ones producing material how do you defend that? We are beginning our small group study with 9Marks of a Healthy church in Sept. Is it possible for someone to be a biblicist and always bring evangelist, and literature that affirm Calvinism without being bias to Calvinism?
How in the world could one legitimately claim only Calvinists publish Bible study material?
@@peterfox7663 I understand completely. Just telling you what his response was to me when I asked the question 🤷🏼♀️
@@jancarter2338 Show them the materials. Proof is in the pudding.
@@peterfox7663The Bible says to prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good. Use whatever you want or call it a cult.
I think it's possible that some calvinists believe that man can recognize his hopeless fallenness and cry out to God but some calvinists might believe God will not respond to their cries for his own reasons 😬
James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Yeah I’ve heard a guy say he was waiting on god to call him out of the grave because he couldn’t do anything until. It’s sad what Calvinism is doing to some people or all
@@andrewdurfee2891
Amen...
@@KBTHECAT
Right, removing individual responsibility entirely can really create problems!
"God does business with those who mean business"(.)
I can agree that man can be in a state of being unable to respond to God when they are given over to a reprobate mind. Calvinists say we are born reprobate so why would God need to give anyone over to a reprobate mind?
There is about a thousand contradictions like this in the Calvinist system.
-Great ,point my sister. #10
This is a good point. I have a few Calvinistic friends so I started studying this myself. I can’t help but notice so many contradictions that are unsettling. Not unsettling because of emotional appeal but unsettling because of common reasoning and the admission that if you hold to that Biblical you there’s no doubt you would have to affirm there are Scriptural contradictions. The Calvinistic theology has opened up a whole can of worms with regards to paradoxes. I actually listened to an atheist debate a Calvinist and the atheist totally annihilated the debates. The first time I’ve ever supported an atheist review in that respect. He really showed how evil the Calvinistic view of God really is.
Thank you for this interpretation, but, how can you explain this verse?: NASB 1995 1 Corinthians 2:14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. Didn't you both agreed on the idea that sinners apart from His saving grace are in bondage of sin? 17:19. So, I think if they were in bondage then they are incapable since they will just suppress the truth. What do you think? Unless, if you believe that there are those who will suppress while others wont even when they are in bondage of sin. Didn't we know about them who doesn't love God and they don't have the fear of God?
I feel like this verse is simply saying that if you re not following and believing in Jesus, you will not be able to understand His ways…..natural man, as in without God. The flesh vs the spirit…. I could be wrong though!!
"NO ONE CAN COME to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" how clear should it be Leigthon???? Not too complicated to me ,but U know what? pple believe what they want to believe.
To all my brothers and sisters in the lord" Please use your critical thinks skills". The Lord did not say , no one WILL but rather no one can,( is able!) There is a difference between being able and actually willing and doing? Just because the Lord draws someone, doesn't mean they will come
I domt assume i know anything, however it seems plausable to me that there are paralell truths here that the human mind will never be able to harmonize, its not surprizing that we are not able to do so, given that the ways of God are not or ways, nor are his thoughts like our thoughts, it is true that who ever the father gives to Christ will come to him and whoever does so He will not cast out, as well as all the other scriptures that create this paradox, i dont thimk you have to fall on either side of this cause both are true even though we havent been able to resolvw the issue for ove a thousand years. Who can know the mind of God, again I dont think we should find it surprizing that there are truth that exist in the mind of God that we will never resove, like this one. Just sayin
I would caution against leaning too hard on verses that talk about not knowing God's thoughts; not because they aren't true (of course God is beyond us), but because I think it may encourage us to approach a mindset that we can kind of mentally take a back seat in trying to understand something.
I think God has demonstrated with creation, and in His word, that He is a God of reason. He's given us His word so we can know Him and understand reality the way it truly is. Though I do think that there are some questions that we will inevitably come to a place where we have no definitive "answer" this side of heaven, I think Dr. Flowers is right in his assessment of what the bible teaches about who our God is and how we come to be saved.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 Amen! Thank you. When people use the “we can’t understand the mind of God” excuse when talking about scripture that He gave us to understand it just shows they disagree with the word or don’t want to accept what it’s saying.
Leighton, maybe I missed it, but can you please exegete John 6:37-39 in light of this video?
There is an implied meaning being read into the scripture that isn't said out loud (this is true for almost every misunderstood passage). Let me add the unspoken assumption..... no one can come to Me unless the Father that sent Me draws them ( from an unsaved condition to a saving knowledge of Me). and I will raise them ( that have been drawn into a saved condition previously) up at the last day. Now the passage doesn't say those extra words but they are being read in silently every time the passage is read. The passage can be read as not pre christian but post salvation promises as are most of the passages in John 6.
Calvinists will point to John 6:44 and the use of the word "draw" as evidence that such a sovereign will exists in the mind of God and point to the fact that the word "draw" has the clear definition in the N.T. of using FORCE to DIRECT the final result of any event or desired set of circumstances in God's universe.
The question is whether this interpretation is a valid understanding of John 6:44 and if not why not? Those who are NOT Calvinists will quickly point to other scriptures as evidence that man does indeed have a free will to choose but under careful examination this does not really solve the problem either. A significant number who claim they are Calvinists will respond by saying that BOTH man's free and independent will, along with God's meticulous sovereign will to predetermine the fate of individuals, are BOTH TRUE and it is a "mystery" as to how this works. This is called COMPATIBILISM. This retreat tactic by Calvinists does not really work under careful evaluation as it is an attempt to mask a contradiction as a paradox. Man either has a free will or he doesn't and if his will is predetermined by someone other than himself, God or man, then he is not free under the simple definition of the word. (A is equal to B) and (A is NOT equal to B) cannot both be true at the same time, therefore COMPATIBILISM fails.
So what is the solution? Does John 6:44 teach a meticulous determinism by God and somehow man is still free to choose? I will attempt to answer this question with one caveat. It must be understood that Calvinists just don't use John 6:44 for a defense but include other verses as part of their defense and it is not my goal to address them in this OP. It is only my objective to give a sound and biblical defense as to why John 6:44 cannot be interpreted to support their interpretation or understanding.
The key to understanding how the word "draw" is used in John 6:44 is to recognize that...
1) The N.T. does support a definition that includes a use of force to direct a desired condition or outcome
2) There are no clear examples in the N.T. of the use of the word "draw" that supports the translation of the word to include "to entice" or "to lure" although some translations may take it upon themselves to veer from the examples found in the N.T. to translate it with this meaning.
The resolution to this problem lies in the fact that certain words in both the N.T. and O.T. depart from a focused or strict interpretation of a particular word based on THE ORIGIN OF THE ACTION or THE NATURE OF THE SOURCE. How does this work? Here are three examples.
Example 1: REPENT
The word repent is used to describe an action that both man and God have exercised in scripture but the difference reflects a change of meaning or focus in each case. Man repents as the result of recognizing the evil he HIMSELF has committed whereas scripture records that God repented as the RESULT of the actions that man committed against other men by violating his commandments.
Example 2: JEALOUS
When men exercise jealousy they commit a violation of the will of God through a covetous desire for that which does not belong to them...Yet the scripture describes God as a JEALOUS God, the difference being that God's jealousy is for that which DOES RIGHTFULLY BELONG TO HIM, Glory, Honor and Worship. To claim that God is jealous in the same way that man is jealous violates the meaning of the word as it used to apply to each.
Example 3: Caught Up (harpazo/rapture)
The difference here is one of how the action of being caught up differs as to method, purpose, and result when done by men versus when God himself initiates the action. All examples in scripture point to this difference in detail...if one investigates ALL EXAMPLES in the N.T. of the word "harpazo" as performed by the Lord, you will find NO INTERMEDIARIES are used by the Lord to perform that action, it is commanded and executed by the Lord alone by his command alone, without preparation, without hesitation, to either his immediate presence or to his desired location. That is what is described in 1 Thess. 4 and EVERY EXAMPLE where the Lord performs that action, without exception.
When compared to examples of the same word used by men or Angels the word takes on a DIFFERENT METHOD, for a DURATION OF TIME, under the authority of an INTERMEDIARY.
This then is why the word "draw" is not enough to prove an exclusive meaning that indicates an involuntary response by those being "drawn"...the difference is the one doing the drawing, be it man or God...in each case the subject creates a DIFFERENT meaning and interpretation.
If we extend our discussion to the O.T. and the words translated to mean "draw" then it becomes even clearer that the source or origin of the action plays an important role in the understanding of how both men and God draw men and the difference between them...
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Jeremiah:31:3
It is evident that drawing with lovingkindness would not mean compelling someone by FORCE or AGAINST THEIR WILL.
I know this is old, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I think Jesus is talking about the end game. Because He is talking about those who He will raise up at the last day. The ones who the father obviously knows would come to believe. So yeah, its the elect, but because the context is also about believing, it is talking about the elect of the last day. The ones who the father draws and gives to Jesus are the believers. The ones who decided to eat and drink in faith.
Quit trying to judge like God, try loving people like Jesus loves us.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I don't think "appeal" is a fitting word to interpret the biblical meaning either. I think "convicts" is the right interpretation . Read Jesus word John 16:8, which again points to the Calvinst view.
Dr Flowers you are awesome! God bless you sir! You are one of my favorites! Right there with Lewis Lennox Heiser Stanley Kirkwood and Collins (I know he’s a scientist but the language of God blew my mind LOL).
1 Peter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
What about a Christian who was going to kill himself on a particular night who was not even thinking of God, only death and God suddenly fills Him with His Holy Spirit for the first time causing him to believe as a result of giving him peace that surpasses understanding.
In other words he had nowhere to go because he was surrounded by an irresistible Grace as a result believed in God and now knew that the God of the universe knew him and was now in his room enveloping him in a cacoon of love. The love of God in the room and inside of him i.e everywhere.
Where he felt beyond dead before and now had never felt more alive!
Does that sound like something that is resistable?
I can guarantee the person trying to commit suicide that night wasn't thinking about or even remotely cared about God. His choice was to die. God's choice was for him to live.
The person I keep referencing above is me. I was going to get a 357 and blow my head off. God in His sovereign grace overwhelmed me with His love that night. And I mean overwhelmed!!!!!!!!!! It was when He showered me with His love that I repented as a result of the faith I now Had in Him. My faith and repentance were a natural consequence of His grace in my life. And yes it was irresistible. I can't speak for anybody else. Just sharing my testimony. I will never forget the night the King brought my dead soul to life.
👍✌
God draws all men unto Himself by His works. All of nature and the cross are the primary works that draw men unto himself.
Clarification: When Leighton is talking about the soul being separated from the body at death, that is a condition of a lost person, not a born again Christian. The born again Christian's soul is already separated from their body by way of(via) the circumcision made without hands that the Holy Spirit performs. This is why the Holy Spirit can be indwelling while your flesh is still sinful.
The reason Calvinism fails in soteriology is because they don't understand that God is calling all to repentance, it's not like he is not calling some. The point is being made by Jesus Christ that the Father must call them so that we understand that there is no other way. God put his moral and ethical laws in our hearts. He manifested himself in miraculous ways in times past, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," and Noah preached in his time. Job was before the law, yet he eschewed evil and was an upright and perfect man. The human family started out with direct knowledge of God and from there everyone propagated generations of informed people through word of mouth teaching. The Holy Spirit is in the world now convincing the world of sin during the church age. John 16:8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"
Summary: Jesus Christ is not saying that there are a limited number of people that he is calling, he is saying that there is no other way that lost man could seek God void of the things that I listed above.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It depends what you mean by draw. A bug light draws a bug to it, but it isn't actively pulling it in, it is simply shining, the bug sees it and goes to it. I am drawn to light if I am in darkness, but the light isn't pulling me in, it is simply shining. Calvinism believes people were chosen before the earth was created. It is a fixed list. If that is so, why did God send Jesus and why did Jesus say God wants all people saved?
Dr. Flowers I respect your teachings. The real issue is Christianity comes from a Helenistic view. It continues to try to define God in a Greek way. You don't have to spend a long time breaking down one verse. If that interpretation doesn't work with the chapter, then it is wrong. Calvinism seems to do that more than most doctrines.
Nothing in the Bible supports Calvinism.
.. and let's not neglect the action verb required of us in *_receiving_* that gift and the abundant grace in which we stand (Romans 5:17) as well as our *_receiving_* a love of the truth (2Thes 2:10)!
a gift can be given, even delivered right to our porch but if we do not RECEIVE it, it does NOT benefit the addressee to whom it was sent/given! Also, note, the *_intrinsic value_* of the gift is reduced by a factor of ZERO whether the gift remains urneceived or fully received because the *_value_* of a gift is determined by the ONE PAYING THE COST TO OBTAIN IT TO GIVE.
how does one receive the gift ?
@@livingwater7580 next time you get a package from amazon... you'll figure it out or it will be left on the porch :)
i must have missed something, it seemed like you only gave the calvinist interpretation of John 6:44. I still don't see how you get around this verse. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me "draws" him. What about John 6:37 ?? All that the Father "gives" me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. How do you get around this when Jesus clearly says it is the Father who GIVES believers to Jesus? I don't want Calvanism to be true, but John 6 seems far more compelling to me than even Romans 8,9,10,11. Was really hoping for more out of this video. I do appreciate your work, thank you
I think the main thing, is that the assumption Calvinists bring is that it leans towards an effectual drawing prior to choice.
If we take the view which is that we are saved by grace through faith, then we can easily understand that God's power is that which saves us though he waits for us to cry out for help. We cannot, in any strength of our own, be drawn in to Jesus nor do we have the power to remain in Christ. However, to God's good pleasure, he saves those who humble themselves, repent and ask forgiveness for sins. We have faith that those who truly repent will be saved by God, who is love, and God will save in accordance with his promises.
In this case, everything Jesus says is true: God draws the sinner by the power of the Holy Spirit and gives the repentant to Christ out of his mercy.
Hope this helps.
At 20:53, for #1, I would say it a little differently: "No one can discover God on their own." I find the phrasing important because there are numerous passages that appeal to those who seek (e.g. Zeph. 2:3) and even ones that attribute the seeking initiative to the human heart (e.g. Psalm 27:8).
The principle behind Dr. Flower's #1 is that God cannot be discovered and personally known unless he discloses himself. This is not unique to Yahweh, it is a function of being a person.
From that vantage point, the gospel is God's full self revelation in Christ (Hebrews 1:1-2) of his intentions toward humanity (John 3:16-17) along with evidence of his affectionate love and power to overcome sin and death ( Romans 5:8, Romans 1:17).
Of course, at some level, God as Creator and Source means the human longing for relationship with Him is a function of how he made us, (Ec. 3:11), but this is a generally true capacity shared by all humans and not removed at Genesis 3.
I appreciate the work you do, Dr. Flowers.
God exposes himself to each who is exposed to His Word.
@@r.e.paints7908Job, and Noah among other pre-deluvian fathers were before any writing. You can't view the whole truth through church goggles. Study 2nd Timothy 2:15 KJV only, and pray that God reveals how to use it his way.
So when Jesus said "i will draw all men to me" he really said "i will enable all men to come to me"?
12:00 Flowers insinuates that men should not be punished for what they aren't responsible for. This is contrary to Scripture. Luke 12:47 "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating." There are many examples of this.
Do you really believe that Scripture insinuates men "should be" punished in hell for what they aren't responsible for? You missed the key understanding of Jesus' words behind Luke 12:47-48. That the degree of punishment is commensurate with the extent to which the unfaithful behavior was willful. Note that ignorance is nonetheless... no excuse (v. 48). That there will be varying degrees of punishment in hell is clearly taught in Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 24: Mark 6:11; Heb 10:29) That is evident by Jesus' saying "but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging will receive but few. (I'm not related to Leighton Flowers')
Yes! The Lord was taking about, KNOWING? and not knowing? They Know? Knew? not blinded!
Calvin says that double predestination is the logical conclusion of his system.
God tells people to repent even thoe He knows they will never repent and die in their sins...would you agree?
Chris Stevens no
Actually it is true
The more I learn about Calvinists the less I understand why would they even evangelize. What they basically do is tell unrepenting people how much they can’t repent. It’s like showing an apple to a toothless beggar, they are hungry and would like to eat it but they won’t be able to because they have no teeth.
At the 11:43 mark in this video, Leighton state that Calvinist believe mankind is born fallen, but does not go on to show that mankind is NOT born fallen. Short gospel = Adam broke it, Jesus fixed it. We must understand that Jesus fixed what Adam broke. We are no longer held responsible for the sin of Adam, we are held responsible for OUR OWN SIN. Romans 5 teaches us that Jesus fixed the death that came thru Adam. A child is born sinless because of what Jesus did, but at some point that child will grow up and sin. Now that sin come from his own desire as we read in the book of James, but is not the sin of Adam. Now once sin happens, then you need an advocate. To say we are still under the sin of Adam, totally denies the what Jesus accomplished. If the non-calvinists would teach that Jesus was victorious, it rips the "T" right out of TULIP. Romans 9.11 says "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad" think about that. No mention of the sin of Adam in that verse. Jesus was completely victorious over death. What death? The death that Adam brought the day he ate the forbidden fruit. The calvinist (and others) need to stop blaming Adam and start taking responsibility for their own sin. It is YOUR sin that separated you from God, not Adam's, Jesus fixed that. Adam broke it, Jesus fixed it, live in victory.
Fantastic teaching. Thank you!!
No one is born an enemy of God. Not a single person.
Question, "Does John 6:44 support Election?
Answer, Yes it does we can see very clear that no man, no one can come to the Son except the father which sent him draws him. This is very clear. However, there are those that will twist the plain scriptures of God's word.
Example, Jesus himself said very plainly, "You have NOT Chosen me but I have CHOSEN you and Ordained you that you should go and bear forth much fruit" John 16:15. The word Ordaided in this verse in the literal rendering is, Appointed. Jesus has to do all the choosing thus He alone gets all the glory. Some will try to pervert this basic truth to their own destruction sad to say many will be shocked in that day, Matthew 7:22-23.
True
"However, there are those that will twist the plain scriptures of God's word." - How ironic.
Leighton keeps saying, for SALVATION, one must FIRST: acknowledge one is a sinner to humble oneself, THEN believe, never giving scripture for it. If he is thinking of the man in the gospel saying "have mercy on me a sinner" he is wrongly applying the law of Moses to the body of Christ SPECIFICALLY under grace not law. Israel was under a covenant of laws to observe for RIGHTEOUSNESS (see Deuteronomy 6:25) and they and Jesus were under that law and one directive they had included confessing sin.
The Apostle Paul NEVER SAYS one must FIRST admit/acknowledge one is a sinner, then believe when teaching believers in his letters how one is saved. Paul is the one Jesus chose to explain the actual doctrines of the body of Christ SPECIFICALLY under grace not law. Paul teaches how one is saved, born again/regenerated, justified, sanctified, etc., but NO, FIRST, humbling oneself and acknowledging ones sin. Paul says faith is generated by hearing the message about Christ Jesus and the gospel itself TELLS the hearer that he or she IS a sinner. God simply commands all to repent- turn from darkness, power of Satan- to light/God according to Paul when recounting what the Lord told him, in Acts 26. Still, no admitting/ACKNOWLEDGING one is a sinner. The Epistles addressing the body of Christ SPECIFICALLY under grace not law is DEAD SILENT about ADMITTING/ACKNOWLEDGING one is a sinner, FIRST, then believing. I am neither Calvinist or Arminian, just a believer/member of the body of Christ and a doctrinal bible teacher and am sick over this false gospel DIRECTIVE that is not Biblical.
Great video
Just as Charles Spurgeon said, God’s doctrine of sovereign election is written in the scriptures as with an iron pen. I truly do not understand why some Christians choose to reject sovereign election. Paul explains it clearly in Roman’s 9. He even wonders why it surprises them. Because it’s been in God’s plan and in the Scriptures since the beginning. Learning God’s truth of sovereign election has been one of the greatest blessings God has given me. It is indefinitely humbling to realize that I contribute nothing toward being born again. Except the sin that made salvation necessary..Spurgeon also said that the doctrine of sovereign election and man’s free will are parallel lines. We, as men, don’t know where those lines intersect but they do intersect. Somewhere in eternity.
@@aletheia8054, God tells us that man is spiritually dead. Not on life support. Not in a coma..Dead. How could someone who is spiritually dead do anything unless and until God revives him. Just as Jesus said, in John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him” and just as Jesus told Nicodemus when he asks how a man can be born again “The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." Does that sound like a man’s free will?
@@aletheia8054, I definitely believe in free will but an unsaved man or woman does not and cannot choose righteousness.
I'm in the reformed camp. I do not believe "God's grace needs more grace to actually work." Brother, I hear you. But that is not an accurate belief of a Calvinist...at least not this Christian. This debate has to do with the order of salvation. It has been ongoing for almost 2000 years. I have brothers in Christ who hold to a more "Traditional" view of the order of salvation. We agree to disagree. We are all very evangelistic!
I am glad for this video to have come to my attention. I have spent hours watching Dr Flowers with a debate and all the aftermath videos, but this one is the first I've seen where he gives a clear account of the plan of salvation while expounding on one passage.
Sounds like a bologna sandwich to me. What was so offensive in the passage of John 6:65 if it doesn’t mean exactly what it’s saying?
Many disciples left him in John 6:66. Why? Simply because it’s hard to hear. Jesus says you must be born again. We must understand that God is saying that we must be something that we cannot do. We cannot of ourselves be born again. We cannot manipulate God and be born again.
We cannot and should not manipulate salvation. There’s a lot of the word “man” in that word “manipulate”. There are at least three things a man cannot do concerning salvation.
1. Proceed from being dead, to being alive
2. Proceed from being a slave of sin, onto being a slave of righteousness
3. Move from being a natural man to a spiritual man
No Calvinist says they are dragged. They are brought with cords of love and answered prayer. God reveals himself to them.
They come to Christ because He benefits them and they feel his love. If you study all the stories of salvation in the gospels.
You will see a shocking story of Christ revealing himself. You will see none of the popular Romans Road salvation plan that is so popular
In American churches. Jesus said, “it has been given unto you, to understand the things of the kingdom of heaven; to them, it has not been given”.
The people of Hos 11:4 were drawn with “bonds of love” by the Father also. But read Hos 11:5 - they refused and would not come. Hmmm? Irresistible grace? Not so much.
I enjoyed the video brother, but at this point I still think this passage teaches universalism if God draws all men equally. If all men are drawn equally, than all should be raised up on the last day (John 6:44). And I was disappointed that you brought up John 1:11 without mentioning verse 13. Verse 13 seems to contradict your point.
@Daniel Wood - Jn 1:11 Jesus came to his own (the Jews), and his own did not receive him. Jn 1:13 He came to those born of the will of God. And who are they? The ones in Jn 1:12 - He gave the right to them who believe in his name. Are you saying there’s a contradiction there? It seems Jn 1:11-13 says Jesus came for us who believe, which is what Leighton is saying. Are you saying there’s a contradiction unrelated to what I wrote? Thanks.
@@myinternetname5911 Thanks for the reply! It's been a while since I made this post but if I remember correctly, he never addresses John 1:13.
My point is that under Mr. Flowers' view, believing is something man does by his own free choice without God especially and effectually drawing him. If I remember correctly, he used the verses before 1:13 to argue this point. However, John's statement strongly rejects this idea.
The LSB version reads "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
The most natural interpretation is that it is not due to the will of anything or anybody except God that we are children of God.
So, when the preceding verses are read in this light, at the very least on face value, it goes against the view advocated in this video. So, I am surprised he didn't address the verse.
Does this address your question?
@@danielwood8840 Yes, that’s correct. But he did say something to the effect that “of course, we (Provisionists) believe God does draw all people to himself. We just don’t believe mankind is so depraved we need a special kind of grace that works only for some”. That’s not an exact quote, but I don’t think you and he are too far apart. I plan to listen again before a Bible study on Thursday, so if I’m way off, I’ll post another comment. Thanks!
Dead in sin simply means separated from God relationally.
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked....
...But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved..."
Eph 2:1-5.
Yes, partially, and it means you're unresponsive, inactive, and unable to submit to God, just like a dead person. They have a spiritual death by nature and therefore that is why we need God to MAKE us alive.
John 6:64-65 ESV
[64] But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
When one takes John 6:65, not in isolation, but in context with the previous verse it clearly means that people are unbelievers because the Father hasn't enabled them to believe, and therefore it follows that unless the Father enables one to believe one can't believe. So this shows that human beings don't have the capacity to believe unless the Father selects a person to believe by giving him faith, and that He doesn't give faith to everyone through the Gospel. People can hear the Gospel and not be enabled to believe because it requires God to effectually enable a person to believe. Therefore these two verses show that we can't believe through free will.
There's not only an inward drawing or effectual drawing, but also an outward drawing. In the case of John 12:32 ("And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”) the meaning is that Christ will outwardly draw or invite everyone to believe in Him through the proclamation of the Gospel. However only those can believe who are inwardly drawn or enabled by the Father, who gives them the Holy Spirit so that they're irresistibly regenerated.
The idea that Cornelius believed in God through free will is nonsense. He must have had previous knowledge of the Jewish Scriptures, and God through them had regenerated him. Then when he was informed about Jesus being the Messiah the Holy Spirit manifested Himself in his life. But Cornelius must have already possessed the Holy Spirit before this otherwise he couldn't have believed in God and prayed to Him.
But he said come ...greek= bring forth.
@@rysloan I don't understand your meaning. Which Scripture verses are you referring to?
I believe the fish in the net do resist the net. Ask fishermen if fish ever do slip through the net or jump out of it. This goes to St. Paul's two men doctrine as to our human nature. The old man remains inside me & resists the power of grace inside of me.
Well it’s say you get a new self and the old self is gone so how could that be? Now you battle the flesh but that’s not it either explain please
@@KBTHECAT Now you're speculating about abstractions.
The language of two men being inside of us is the language of the Bible. The old mand does NOT pass away, not according to the Bible.
If you want to say some thing else you'd be starting a new religion.
First! hahaha
Mike Winger I appreciate your ministry Mike.
Thanks Jordan!
Same here. "Accidently" found you on RUclips. Now you're on my regular playlist. Enjoy your scriptural perspective.
how cool is that? I really love that RUclips provides this platform, I hope it continues.
Actually I was , I just never commented 😂😂God bless !