This is what happened to me the day I got saved. I heard the gospel very powerfully preached by a very godly man. I was convicted of sin. The preacher invited me forward. Though I had tried to leave the auditorium prior to that, I responded to the altar call. I still felt the guilt and heaviness while standing at the altar. But after I prayed the sinners prayer, miraculously I felt the weight of sin and the burden of guilt lifted of me. I felt so much peace, light and joyful that I was ready to live all my life for Christ. I began preaching to my friends almost immediately and have not relented since. That was over 40 years ago but I still remember it like yesterday.
The pride and arrogance of our Calvinist brethren I need grace to withstand. I don't think I would be able to listen to Chandler in real life without just walking out mid sermon.
amen, no one is FOREKNOWN until they are in christ, because if we read on in ephesiens 2 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having NO HOPE, and WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: 13 "BUT NOW" "IN CHRIST JESUS" ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. GALATIANS 4 8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. 9 "BUT NOW", after that ye have known God, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? note note CHRIST IS THE ELECT, PREDESTINED, CHOSEN, PREDESTINED, GLORIFIED. MATT IS IN TREMENDOUS TREMENDOUS ERROR AND HE IS POSSESSED BY THIS GNOSTICISM AND MENACHIANISM PHILOSOPHY OF AUGUSTINE. Roman's 8 is the guaranteed future of the believers not unbelievers. Be Blessed
My nephew had us listen to Matt on the end times. I listened to one in the series. I realized that I can't bear to hear pastors that raise their voices or use inflections in order to get emotional reactions. I don't mind humor or a sad story as an illustration... but not "priming the pump" by using rants, or sarcasm, or scoffing, etc. Let the Spirit work on our hearts to bring about the correct emotion that HE wants. It might be different in each individual heart, not a mass emotion induced by what the speaker wants.
Mind blowing......Romans 8:28-30 is basically a history lesson that Paul is giving. We can learn from saints that God foreknew (David, Issac, Jacob) as to what will happen to Christians today. The old Saints loved God, and so do we, there for we are Foreknown of God. Gal 4:9 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Thank you for this.....I feel like the Arminian/Calvinistic chains have fallen off me.
I can see why people like listening to Matt Chandler. I wish he would have time to sit down with Leighton. Honestly, I think those are the best conversations. Thanks Leighton for continually pushing these brothers.
Your level of kindness and patience towards people is admirable. Matt Chandler is basically openly mocking and ridiculing anyone who would disagree with him under the guise of 'sermon humor'. I can't find that one on the list of fruits of the spirit so it must come from somewhere else.
Watched this video a while ago and came back to it again as I was reading Determined to Believe by John Lennox.....the understanding of "foreknow" to simply mean to know beforehand makes this passage so clear and easily understood. It's saints of old, those whom God knew in the past. If we see what God has done in the past with those believers we can have confidence in what God intends for believers today. Take off the Calvinist glasses and the passage is so clear! Thanks Leighton for all you do!
@ Fenn Allen- This is exactly the way I interpreted as well. What’s really sad is that Calvinism always seems to make you second guess your first understanding of scripture ☹️
God Bless You Leighton. Your work is more important than most give credit. Calvinism paints pictures of a cruel and impersonal Diety that gives no value to individual choice and violates the very basis for the existence of love. Love MUST be freely given and an existence that invalidates choice, invalidates love at the same moment. Calvinism is indeed toxic to the relelation of our Lord and Savior. God Bless you and your work.
A Calvinist asked me who initiated my salvation. I told him it was the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. And whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Dr. Flowers, I am very grateful that you have taken the time to address these issues. I think that it is important to re-examine the words "saved" and "salvation" in Romans. Paul does not use it to mean "go to heaven when you die." The text shows this because "saved" and "salvation" do not occur from Romans 1:18-5:8, even though the focus is depravity and deserved condemnation (1:18-3:18) and the righteousness of God now manifested in Jesus Christ and justification by faith alone (3:19-5:8). The context of Paul's argument in Romans 10:9-10 shows that the "confession" in v.9 is consistent with the backward progression in v. 14--15= "call, believed, heard, preacher, sent." This shows that the concept of "saved" in Romans 10 for Israel is much more than just regeneration and eternal life. It's clear that they need "righteousness" from the context (10:1-6), but this righteousness is coupled with believing, not confessing (10:10). Confession (to me) for Israel seems to linked to the greater argument of the book as being the solution to avoiding the passive wrath of God (1:18-32; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 4:15; 5:9-[notice the parallels and the tenses with v.10]; 9:22). Just my thoughts.
SALVATION: May I direct your attention to the following Scriptures: Exodus 14:13, 30; Ex 15:2 Psalm 27:1; Ps 35:3; Ps 38:22; Ps 62:2, 6; Ps 95:1; Ps 118:14; Isaiah 3:2; Isa 49:6. These are direct statements telling us that God (the Lord) Himself is our salvation. Jesus said to His disciples - ABIDE IN ME Jn 15. In other words - Abide in your Salvation - I am your Salvation. PAUL: Whenever Paul is speaking about being in Christ, this is a plain statement that we are in the Salvation of God - for the Lord Jesus is our Salvation as well as our Light. As to your "thoughts" on Romans per refs given. Paul is by the Holy Spirit addressing the assembly at Rome. Some folk there think they are teachers but they do not practice what they preach - they speak Law, but breeak the Law in other areas. Paul uses the Greek 'orge' (wrath - 3709 - Strong's) inm many places in his letter. The Greek meaning doesn't make reference to any "passive" wrath. Have a look for yourself. Israel for the mostpart wre looking to gain righteousness before God simply by keeping the Law. They did not obtain it because they did not seek it by faith as did many of their number (Heb 11 for example) - the remnant did. But the salvation of God was still available to them - but they did not submit to the righeousness of God (10:3) The quote in v 6 is from what Moses said in the wilderness (Deut 30:12-14) Then Paul says "BECAUSE" (or therefore, etc). This reason did apply to Israel of old just as much as it did in Paul's day and in ours. If you (they, me, the next generation) confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead> Caleb and Joshua had no 'knowledge of Jesus or his being crucified or raised from the dead. However, Jesus says to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus on resurrection day, that ALL the prophets spoke of these things - (Lk 24). This included Moses, and because Joshua and Caleb had a different spirit in them than the rest, they would have by faith been able to grasp something of the prophetic meaing in Moses' words. Confession of the mouth and believing in the heart are coupled together. Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. This surely would include what Paul is saying here in his letter. The two actions work together in any generation for any people. And according to the Light given so it shall be.
I never could understand why some Christians believe that God chooses just a few of His fallen creation to believe in Jesus, but, then, on the other hand, it is not so surprising. We are all different and we often see things differently. What is surprising is that today so many Christians are being persuaded to accept this philosophy. It is rapidly becoming the predominant view in our churches. Not only that but Christians who do not accept this view are not concerned enough to challenge our growing number of Reformed pastors. The Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and yet our Reformed pastors today say that only those who are effectually called come to faith. And not only that, they say that the faith to believe is a gift from God. If people are not placing their personal faith in Christ but are waiting for this gift from God, then they could be waiting a long time. This increase in Reformed Theology only confirms to me that we are living in the days where they will no longer endure sound doctrine.
Foreknowledge is simple when we shed the Calvinistic baggage. Simply ask the question: what is required for God to KNOW someone? A hint lies in Matthew 7:21-23. When Christ says “Depart from me I NEVER KNEW you”. The context suggests something other than His omniscient knowing, because OF COURSE God knew everything, but this text in proper context is referring to who God KNOWS as family. So when you read it through the lens of scripture and allow the Bible to interpret itself, the mystery is unveiled! He foreKNEW those who BELIEVE. In other words, God only recognizes those who CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. We need to stop injecting predeterminism into everything and omniscience into everything. The fact that God is omniscient is a given, but foreknowledge isn’t always speaking in that context. God KNOWS those that are His. How do you become HIS? Through BELIEVING. This context is consistently used throughout scripture. Calvinism is a poison that has rotted out perception. When unknowingly.
I love Matt. As a calvinist he was probably my favorite pastor. However isn't he doing the same thing he said the people playing games were doing? They would read for known and say well this is what I think it's saying. It seems, based upon his position, that he would read we believe so as to have life, and say I know it says that but this is what I really believe it's saying. Seems like it's a mental disconnect and double standard.💚
There must be a reason why God gave humans more intelligence than any of the animals. We're able to question the world around us, to read, comprehend, compare, contrast, learn from or disagree with others. And God gave us a moral conscience. To deny all this & simply fall back on the same lame Calvinist cop out that dead in Sin means we have zero ability to respond to God & His Gospel. It's a weak & worn out excuse which denies the gift & responsibility of intelligence which God bestowed on the human race.
Leighton, it looks like you have made a mistake with the 2 Peter 3:17 verse. This one appears to mean foreknowledge - as in “now that you have this foreknowledge“ and is not “since you already knew this before“. PS thanks for your work, I have been appreciating your videos.
There are reasons to repent publicly. Matt Chandler, Platt, and Washer worship a theology not Christ. The problem with Calvinism is that its not from God.
Because this is such an important issue, I wouldn't refer to it as "just". Yes, maintain respect but because they obviously refuse what is written, how far do we take this tolerance, winsome as they can be or not?
To say that Chandler as a Calvinist has not "considered" a better biblical exegesis of election and predestination is to be way way way too generous. They consciously reject deriving meaning from these terms in context rather than importing Calvinism into them. They don't dare put their theology into an academic review by non-Calvinists. Calvinism is just really bad proof-texting method of reading Scripture. Any good seminary would have taught its students how to exegete. Calvinism is how to mishandle the text, nothing more.
'And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31, NKJV)' Notice the QUESTION - what must I DO to be saved? They didn't say, hey man you got it all wrong. They said BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. If they had no ability to do this that statement is false.
It’s a miss notion (straw man argument) to think or say that God has to take a flight into the future to see who would believe and put their faith in him or not, therefore knowing who would be saved or not. God is omniscient all knowing he knows already at the moment before creation who would willingly put their trust in him and who would willingly not. Why does God have to go down the Corders of time to have to come to a knowledge of something, that makes no sense. HE FOREKNEW. Because he is God. He allowed it to take place to have a personal relationship for eternity with those who would put their faith in him. Their faith didn’t save them only God saves. God tells us that those who put their faith in him and confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts shall be saved. That’s Gods choice of how he wants to do it.
Well said David. God knows because He is God!!! If God has to look into the future (like some Armenians say), then He's no longer omniscient (all knowing). If God's knowledge come from His decrees (like some Calvinists say), then He's not omniscient either.
Matt paraphrases his opponents to have them look like lower intelligent fools, in the name of humor, to sugarcoat his belief that God purposely created the vast majority specifically for the lake of fire, of which there is no salvation, hope, or escape. The naive are drawn to this teaching style, & led astray with laughter & a smile on their faces. What a shame.
VR: Calvinist "humor" and laughter is often quite creepy. I wonder if you watched R C Sproul's (last?) sermon, which was on the 500th Reformation Day. Shortly into it, he says he doesn't think the nonelect will find God's plan for their lives "very wonderful" (referring to the bromide "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life"). Well, the assembled Calvinists get *rather a chuckle* out of that.
20july1944 -- Yes R.C, you're dead now. By the same standard of measure of judgement you used, will be used against you. Like Jobs 'friends' who spoke wrongly of God, R.C now joins their category, forever written in the pages of human history.
Elwood M. Buel -- not just a debate, but logical conclusions leading to full blown contradictions also do not change their minds. The more their leaders are praised by those who believe the same, the more invincibly stubborn they all become as a whole.
Calvinists often misrepresent other positions to make their position look the correct. Even though I may not agree with Arminians but they are usually the ones with whom you can have a friendly disagreement.
I've really been enjoying your channel. Thanks a ton!! -Do you have anything (written/video/or audio) on Calvin's "P" -once saved always saved essentially? -I have my thoughts but I'd really love to hear yours.
I thought the Faith mentioned there is not faith in terms of our belief, but our belief, or the very faith we have. Like it's not about the state of believing, but the thing we believe in, which is then called "our faith" or "this our faith" or "this which we profess".
Hey Dr Flowers, I have a question about using clips from people's RUclips channels. There are people who would say we should go to the preacher privately and talk to them about what we think they are teaching wrong first, before making a video about them, what are your thoughts on that?
I would say Matt already has been confronted since he displays knowledge of what non-Calvinists believe and publicity rejects it (Maybe it was through private reading.)
Not teachers and pastors in the Word, they are to be called out publically~! The only time you take someone aside in private first is when they sin against you personally~! If they are teaching these things publically, they are to be called out publically, marked (judged righteously) and avoided, according to Scripture; except when they are used by God to teach valuable lessons, as Dr. Flowers does here~!
Mark Gallagher Mark is on point here. The sins and mis-steps of leaders are to be called out before everyone. Paul did the same to Peter in Ga. 2:14-16
I think Dr Flowers sets a high standard of how to address differences respectfully and equitably. He calls them brothers and is charitable to not misrepresent others. Contrast his approach to many "heresy hunter" websites that lack evaluative rigor and discipline. They often operate in unjustifiable condemnation based on minimal evidence, and have next to zero Christian goodwill.
Wow thanks for that, must go through it slowly, also cleared up for me the confession with the mouth. I was stuck in WOF, for a little bit. They wrongly say that words themselves contain a force that saves you. But as I understand what he is saying, our confession is simply like baptism, a confession of Jesus and his saving power for my bad heart..
Grant Holland The original WOF idea was actually good. It originally started out as merely praying the scriptures as a part of life application. It got corrupted with New Age thought however and went off the deep end ( like you mentioned people started believing their words were a force). We just need to get back to scripture. And not in a way that condemns but brings unity.
It's so annoying that people take Ephesians 2 and say that your faith is the gift of God referenced here. It's so plainly referring to salvation by grace which is the gift, it's describing the MEANS by saying through faith. That's why he contrasts faith and works saying it's by faith and not of works. Faith is not a work according to God. You have to have a presupposition that you cannot respond to God b/c you're corpse like dead in sin, and then conclude that it means that the faith must be a gift to then since you can't believe. WRONG.
Foreknew in this context simply means knew beforehand, namely in an intimate way, before the creation of the world. This includes us (His adopted children), not just speaking of the saints of old from the past.
Wow. First I've ever heard this take on foreknown as simply "the saints who knew God in the past but who have died." And it fits the context hand in glove. I was already long out of Calvinism, but you always love it when a semi-obscure passage becomes clear and at least for now I'm thinking that's what I just got. Reminds me of "sin unto death" in 1 Jn. 5, which I'm grateful someone taught me to look at as simply "was walking in unbelief and has now died," similar to "remaining faithful unto death." Clearly cases where posterity got lost in translation a little bit and sent off the right track.
If Calvinism has THAT MANY errors, including their misinterpretation of the Gospel, shouldn’t you or us for that matter, start using the harshest of words in a stern rebuke. Did not Paul say, “If any man comes preaching any OTHER Gospel other than the one you’ve received from me, let them be accursed” and if the Apostle Paul offered such stern words, why then are we, for lack of a better term, being way to nice, as it were. Calvinism is a doctrine that leads to other damaging doctrines such as Lordship Salvation which only burdens you to the point of exhaustion, the least of which is spiritual. These doctrines really mess people up, and IMO need to be addressed in a more harsher way. JMO
Calvinists don't believe that we have a "free will" which allows us to choose God. So without that foundational truth, then the Calvinist view is free to misinterpret other aspects of God's word, as well. Also, the term predestination means "to mark out beforehand," and refers to the plan and goal of salvation itself, not to specific individuals. It should be understood in the corporate sense, rather than in the sense that each individual was predestined to either eternal life or eternal condemnation.
I wonder how prognosko would have been taught to rhetoricians... "how to use this" when preparing a persuasive aimed argument (ie: Romans (come to faith), Hebrews (don't leave your faith)) .... I wonder if this was a key word that greco-roman audiences would catch (like Matthew using "behold" in his Gospel)
C.H.Surgeon was asked , How do you reconcile God's sovereignty and man's responsibility . He replied , you can't reconcile friends. Trust in Jesus , believe on our Lord and you will be saved by grace through faith. Tension within scripture keeps us balanced , after all great is the mystery of Godliness.
Well it's not that big of a mystery because he tells you right after he says that : 1 Timothy 3:16b He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
Why's pastor Chandler bringing out a bunch of instances of the word "Knew" while critiquing the word, "Foreknew"? Foreknowledge is not exactly the same thing as knowing someone in the present or past.
Hey Dr. Flowers, have you considered making some kind of visual chart to explain these different interpretations? Especially with the Greek Words. Maybe we need a simple Acronym like TULIP. I'm able to get very deep into theology and philosophy and understand things on a technical level, but for some reason, uncalvanizing these verses always confuses me, I get lost in the weeds so easily, and its so much to remember. I feel like I can't debate calvanists because I'm still not understanding every scripture, every greek word, every interpretation, every calvanist rebuttal, and I'll end up reverting back to the philosophical arguments that they always reject, which usually leads me to instant frustration talking to them
Never thought about it like that but your right, TULIP is a purely philosophical argument about those verses, but if you use any of your own philosophy they accuse you of not being 100% about the text. Here's my argument that makes it a close and shut case for me personally Its wrong to force some one to love you against their will In Calvanism, God forces some humans to love him against their will God is morally perfect, so He cant do anything wrong Therefore, Calvanism doesn't allow for belief in a morally perfect God Doesn't matter how air tight and logical that argument is, they will reject it if I cant uncalvinize their verses effectively. I know Paul is talking about Isreal in Romans 8, 9, 10 and 11, and our salvation is a future inheritance as explained in Ephesians, but there seems to be no easy, systematic way to explain it yet. We're always going the long way around, but maybe thats all there is, I dont know yet
Wouldn’t this interpretation of Roman’s 8:30 mean OT saints have already been glorified? Isn’t this said to happen at the same time with current believers at the Return of Christ and bodily resurrection?
I have news for Matt Chandler … bad news! Paul doesn't use slang, at all. So let's see what Paul suggested those he felt were misrepresenting the Gospel should do! Gal 5:12 was referring to someone who was agitating for all christian (males) to be circumcised. Saying faith is a specific gift is to my mind as bad as telling someone they need to be circimcised, both are entirely wrong. So when Matt Chandler looks again at Ep 2:8 and accepts that the Greek doesn't support faith being a gift (salvation through faith IS the gift) he can either repent or do the right thing and get an orchidectomy! Please note the non-use of slang which in this case would be to "remove his balls"! 😮😂😂😂😂😬
Hello sir my name is Alberto Celaya and well I consider myself a Calvinist but to be honest I have many questions and I am doubting a lot of things about my beliefs I was wondering if there was a way we can talk ? I am from Yuma Arizona I found you on RUclips thank you for reading this
Alberto, Leighton rarely comments here, probably because he is such a busy guy. Please ask questions anyway. You may get the answers you're looking for from others. Peace
It seems that so many have discounted the necessity of confession but Christ said "if you confess me before men I will confess you before the Father." Did He mean this or not? If a person believed and responds to the call to come but does not end up confessing then what happens to him. The Bible says: 21 Was not our father Abraham JUSTIFIED by what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was working WITH his actions, and his faith was PERFECTED BY what he did. 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God.… (James 2:21-23)
LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. Most humans before they are borne and before they commit a sinful act are DAMNED to HELL for eternity, and then God blames the DAMNED for being DAMNED even though God made them that way. LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. Paul did not know if he was one of the elect; Paul is in complete control over his life: “. . . but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified” (1 Corinthians 9:27). Am I missing something?
Time for a light hearted joke! So ... what is Leighton's favourite song? Ans: Tiptoe through the TULIPS! There's more than one TULIP because Calvinists can never quite agree among themselves so I felt justified in using the plural! I know explaining a joke kind of kills it😮😂 so just enjoy it for what it is😂😂😁
@@0485steveOc Exactly. There is nothing to boast about if you simply believed. But Calvinists have to say then you did something which is really calling it a work and the bible is clear faith is not a work.
Matt Chandler’s usage of the term”playing games” wasn’t winsome it was demeaning. God did not say “ confess with your mouth “JESUS IS LORD,” He said “ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth THE LORD JESUS,....” The difference is who you are confessing, not what you are confessing.
Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Go: Why does the Vinedresser want to save it if the Vintner is so angry at it? In what way was Israel "barren"? Are you saying Jesus is saying there was no legitimate faith in YHWH among the Jews of His time?
Orin Moses That's good. Why would God even write the bible if we're all robots going about our predestined ways? The fact is Calvinists cannot fathom God having sovereignty and humanity having free will. I think the God of the bible, not Calvinism's small god, is so much greater.
Faith IS NOT the gift in Ephesians 2:8-9!!! The gift IS salvation that we get BY grace THROUGH faith!!! And that is what is not done by us but rather by GOD ALONE!!! Even atheists HAVE faith!!!
You have a lot of good things to say but your videos are painfully long. I wish you would be more direct in getting to your point or break things up into portions so I could snag a complete thought in my limited time to focus. I have kids!
check out Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:8 that is the basis of the modern phenomena. Remember that John called people publicly to repent and be baptized in water. This was often a steady stream of people. Jesus also practiced the same thing as did His discples. John 4. People confessed Jesus Christ publicly before believers and unbelievers. Nicodemus was rather secretive about his discipleship to Jesus. Cornelius anda household were all baptized immediately following the remarkable presence of the Holy Spirit falling upon them. None of this was done in a corner. Also in the Philippian jail, the jailor's household were baptized that night after confessing Chist and hearing the gosple preached.
No knowing what I know I think Chandler and Piper among others are confused into ceive there in a twist and give you their span are a lot of scripture and it could definitely damage someone's Christian walk and Christian life
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2.10-14) Non Christians are incapable of understanding the things of God. Faith doesnt preceed regeneration. The Spirit regenerates the heart and enlightens the mind. Faith is a sign of the work of God.
I think there is a distinction between between 1 Cor 1:26 and 1 Cor 2:6. On one side there is the simplicity of the gospel or the weak/foolish way in which the message is brought and a person is called to believe. And the other side is where Paul talks about we speak in wisdom among those who are mature vs.6. So there is a distinction the calling is not mysterious or something unattainable by the natural man, in contrast it is something weak and lowely as to nullify the things that are. It is a resting of oneself, a trusting on another. But for the mature there is more that is given to them in Christ which is revealed through the revelation of the spirit, which has been given to those who believed even when the message was foolish. And Paul didn't start with these mysteries, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; " These things have never entered the human heart, all the things God has prepared for who? Those who love Him. There is no mention of the love as a mystery, or the resting of oneself on Christ, as if that's what needed to be revealed. As Paul continues you see more of the distinction between infants, milk and solid food. They are still fleshy and are busy with things not of the Spirit: "Servants through whom you believed". Paul and Apollos water and seed, God grows, they do weak/foolish basic stuff, God grows.
In Zechariah 13:8-9, God foretold that when his day to make up his possessions comes, he will purify and test the third of mankind, while the two-thirds will be struck down and perish. Before that day comes, God predestined already the fate of two groups of people. Can we diminish or add that preordained numbers? Obviously not. Another example is about Esau and Jacob before they are even born. One is loved and the other hated. One is for shame and the other for glory. One will say, "Then why God still blame us as sinners? For who can resist his will?" Others might say, "If that is so, then we have no free will. Our free will is nothing but illusory." Paul answered that with an allegorical question: "Does the potter have no right to make to kinds of vessel from the same lump of clay? What if he wants to show his great patience to those who are destined for destruction and his great mercy to those he called out?" "If the will of Jesus is the will of God, will you say, 'Jesus has no free will?'"
I have to say this; if Calvinism is a lie, wouldn't that make it a heresy~? In addition: If it is a salvific issue and a lie, that would make it a false gospel, would it not~!? What are we told to do: " "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8) There are other Scriptures as well and I don't with this group I have to list them all but I will if I have to~!
I agree. Flowers and others are not brave enough to say exactly what you just explained. I have asked this same question about other heretical teaching from pastors famous and not famous and all you get is hemming and hawing as they dance around. I had one actually say yes, but in a flash say they are brothers and sisters in Christ.
I would consider it a false gospel if Calvinists were making the claim that Jesus is not the way to salvation. Calvinists don't do that. They fully acknowledge that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation. The difference is whether or not God is the effectual cause of whether a person places their faith in him or not. So I wouldn't call it a heresy or a false gospel. I disagree with Calvinism, but I do believe many Calvinists are well meaning brothers in Christ that are truly trying to understand the scriptures and have simply come to the wrong conclusions through their interpretation of Romans 9, John 6, Ephesians 1, etc. I believe disagreeing with Calvinists and defending our belief in our theological position on salvation is an example of how we are to sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.
@Brolo Bowline I'm sorry to have to say.. but "modern church doctrine" is utter garbage. ..sorry.. I'm done making excuses for the maelstrom of confusion and dishonestly that is Systematic Theology. If they attempted to inject Platonic thought into Christian doctrine they were wrong to do so... period. Maybe I would have done the same thing myself! If I were contending against Catholics... but if I did I hope someone would call me out on it for being so wrong. No one needed it for 400 years... Augustine who thinks it's OK to force conversion.. Origen.. a false teacher.. and Plato, am unregenerate pagan... THESE also preceded him.
kelvyquayo - I totally agree with you. I do believe that is why we were warned in Colossians 2 to “take heed”- “Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:” Colossians 2:8 .
Mark Gallagher I have wondered the same thing myself. If Calvinism makes you doubt your salvation and doubt makes you loose your faith then how can this teaching not be considered heretical?
People make this debate too much on how much theological training you have. The Bible is the Bible regardless of your training. This is about what the text says written by an infinitntely old, all knowing God; not what a theological book says written by a 50 year old mortal man
Just want to add one thing I disagree with. You are justified the MOMENT YOU BELIEVE. When you profess with you mouth, and are “saved” it’s referring to temporal salvation, NOT justification, which is why they are stated separately. When you confess Christ or “call upon the Lord and are saved” the “salvation” here isn’t soteriological. So we cannot add to the gospel message in John 3:16. Belief is the ONLY prerequisite for justification. It’s clear in this verse. I agree that regeneration MUST happen AFTER BELIEF. Chandler is DEAD WRONG.
Having prior knowledge is not the same as picking people for salvation. "Foreknow" is not a verb. God foreknew (had prior knowledge) of who would choose him. Therefore, those who chose to follow Christ, God knows. Therefore, he predestined those who chose to follow Christ "to be conformed to the image of his son".
I think it means who He knew before hand. Not who would choose Him but who He literally knows. Like Paul says in Galatians "now that you've come to know God or rather to be known by God" it's biblical knowing... For we are the Bride of Christ.
Josh Anderson Art I love him and David Platt but the more I listen the less I am able to because their teachings ooze Calvinism and it becomes more apparent the more you are aware.
JOHN 17 ANSWERS FOREKNOWLEDGE 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL BELIEVE ON ME through their word; 21 That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, ART IN ME, and I IN THEE, that THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: 23 I IN THEM, and THOU IN ME, that they may be made PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast LOVED THEM, as thou HAST LOVED ME. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for THOU LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: THAT THE LOVE WHEREWITH THOU HAST LOVED ME MAY BE IN THEM, AND I IN THEM. YOU "(CALVINIST)" WERE NOT KNOWN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD UNTIL YOU WERE PLACED INTO CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED NOT BEFORE.
The first ten minutes in is exactly the way I view foreknowledge and predestination, which I would call foreordaination. And I believe this as a Mormon. Not as a evangelical Christian. I find that in many respects I have a ton in common with the views held by Leighton Flowers that many of the professing Christians I've talked to.
I just had a conversation with a person who says they are not a cavinist but they just read the bible as it is. 🤦♂️🤯 You are saying that why would got show his frustration if he was the one who ultimately causes those people not to believe. The argument this person had is that God didnt cause it. People are born "evil" and not desiring God. We are all naturally not searching for God there for God did not elect other to not believe because they already didnt believe. By the way im strongly convinced calvinism is wrong. Im just not best at having a debate with others. What would you say to this person. Its like he is purposely saying he isnt a calvinist to confuse people but then he will go and sneak in facts about electing and predestination under the surface?
Gen 6:5 And GOD ''SAW'' that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
"But Noah found (acquired) grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a JUST (LAWFUL) man and PERFECT* in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Gen 6:8-9 (PERFECT: From Heb. 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole)
It always amazes me how a simple reading of "the" Word of God, the KJB, clears all this confusion. Once we believe the Gospel of Grace through our own free will, we are saved by the Faith of Christ, not our own personal faith in Christ. Had Christ not acted upon His Faith that God would indeed raise Him from the dead, we would all be bound for hell. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 - KJV The order of salvation is: our belief, then we are gifted the Faith of Christ, then we are regenerated. The Calvinist falsely claims regeneration comes first. Calvinism is heresy. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 -KJV Well so much for the preacher in the video within this video, but what of the speaker? IMO he carries the other view a bit to far. He ends up placing all the OT Saints in Christ, in the Body when scripture places them in the Lord. (Isa 45:17) Then in the Tribulation, when God is again dealing with Israel, the Bible places the Trib Saints in the Lord. (Rev 14:13) The Bible maintains the separation of the Body of Christ and the Jew and so should we. If all OT Saints are in Christ, in the Body, then who are the guest at the wedding of Matt 22?
I haven't watched the video, sorry. I just want some insight. QUESTION: Why would Jesus say that it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? Does God prefer to save poor people? Shouldn't it not make a difference for how "hard" it is for rich to become saved vs poor if God is the one who chooses individuals for salvation based on whatever arbitrary method he chooses? If it's the case God chooses to save poor people more, then theoretically, the United States (compared to the rest of the world) would be screwed for being picked for salvation.
Jess J great question! Unfortunately if you view the bible as adhering to the doctrines of Calvinism, then that statement that Jesus made has no significance, as the salvation of the chosen few had already been determined long before He became flesh. But, if you do not try to make the Bible fit Calvinism, and allow God to speak to you through His word, then that statement carries words of wisdom and words of warning. There are two kingdoms present. There is the kingdom of this world in its present sinful state. It is ruled by the prince of this world, Satan. We are all born into this kingdom in our sinfulness. This kingdom is slated for destruction, along with those whose loyalties reside here. The second kingdom is the kingdom of heaven, a kingdom we can, for the present, only be a part of Spiritually. We are born into this kingdom when we believe in Christ as Saviour. The difficulty for the rich, (also for the poor, but more so for the rich) is that wealth brings certain physical security, ease of living, and distractions. If you have some measure of financial security, ease of life, and certain distractions your needs are largely met, and you are less inclined to pursue Christ as Saviour. Those who don’t see a need to be saved from their life are less likely to be saved to life. It’s a very good question and points out one of many conflicts Calvinism has with the bible.
Carmel is huge and the hole of a needle is to small can he by himself pass through the small hole?Answer is no,God can make him pass through he created him.Yes those with hardened hearts to believe him he can change them to believe him.God can make a way where seems to be no way
Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Amanda & Chris Deysel READ THIS 3 VITAL VERSES WHERE YHWH GOD IS SPEAKING. HOSEA 8:4 "THEY SET UP KINGS WITHOUT MY CONSENT; THEY CHOOSE PRINCES WITHOUT MY APPROVAL. WITH THEIR SILVER AND GOLD THEY MAKE IDOLS FOR THEMSELVES TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION." THIS PEOPLE WERE MAKING IDOLS FOR THEMSELVES W/O GODS APPROVAL. THAT IS CALLED FREE WILL. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T. JEREMIAH 19:5 "THEY HAVE BUILT THE HIGH PLACES OF BAAL TO BURN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE FIRE AS OFFERINGS TO BAAL--SOMETHING I DID NOT COMMAND OR MENTION, NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND." GOD DID NOT COMMAND, MENTION OR ENTER HIS MIND FOR THIS PEOPLE TO BURN THIS CHILDREN AS OFFERINGS TO BAAL. THIS PEOPLE HAD A FREE WILL OBEYING OR DISOBEYING GOD. THEY CHOSED TO DISOBEY GOD. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T. JEREMIAH 32:35 "THEY SET UP THEIR VILE IMAGES IN THE HOUSE THAT BEARS MY NAME AND DEFILED IT. 35 THEY BUILT HIGH PLACES FOR BAAL IN THE VALLEY OF BEN HINNOM TO SACRIFICE THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO MOLEK, THOUGH I NEVER COMMANDED-NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND-THAT THEY SHOULD DO SUCH A DETESTABLE THING AND SO MAKE JUDAH SIN." GOD DID NOT COMMAND THIS PEOPLE 2 SACRIFICE THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS FOR BAAL. THIS PEOPLE DID IT ANYWAYS. WE CALL THAT FREE WILL. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU .
@@mercibeaucoup2639 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Like it's been said before, Calvinists and non-Calvinists are using the same words, but using quite different dictionaries! By "foreknew" they really mean "decreed beforehand" because of their kind of strange PLUS THEY ALWAYS CONFLATE FAITH WITH A WORK! Thus they waste the entire first several chapters of Romans, which takes the time to talk about faith as being SEPARATE from works!
'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV)' Calvinists really have a poor calvinist lens understanding of this verse. What is the gift of God? SALVATION. It's from God by grace through faith that you receive it. And then they'll usually say that's a work. Seriously? I could post a bunch of scripture that directly say beyond the shadow of a doubt that faith is not a work. They really think the only way God can know things is if He is the author of all of it - that is putting a box or a limit on God's understanding and the bible says His understanding has no limit. AS IF a fallen man is going to understand what the eternal God knows and how he knows it!
He starts assuming that He is more knowledgeable than the Dogs ,The Fools . They talk a word or apart of scripture until it's beaten so flat that context is completely gone . also it's just about ego ! this is why so many are leaving Calvinism . The Apostle brought faith with them in the form of scripture ..! in the firm of preaching ! in the form of compassion .! a strong faith is evidence based , it is strengthened through the gospel ,eye witness testimony . etc . if you believe in your heart and declare with your mouth , Jesus Christ is lord . Even athiests have great faith,it takes a lot of faith to believe what athiests believe . and they believe what they believe is true ...! Nothing produced everything ! but they have no eye witness testimony ! their faith is blind ! also they assume things that God doesn't say ,they use inference ,a lot ! they also think the believer isnt capable of reading scripture ,or understanding what they've read . Listening to Calvinists who have left Calvinism is an eye opener . They seem to be under shock , they have just left a sect, a guru , a bad school . they often have the signs of emotional abuse . and then they experience the love of a real family and a real farther , the Idea of love is so deformed . I can't help but say Calvinism is distorting the image of GOD . I was living in the south of France, on the Côte-d'Azur , in history it was a region that was Christian evangelist . there were many groups of Christians living in communities and practicing their faith as bible beleiving Christians . I now live in another region which was a sanctuary for Bible beleiving Christians . these Christians were what we would call bereans , they interpreted scripture daily from study of the scriptures . all the Christians of the Côte-d'Azur were exterminated in a crusade against them . over a million people died , the region where I am now Christians were forced to live under ground in caves in the sides of the mountains, they weren't allowed to burry their loved ones in cemetery's they had to burry their loved ones on their own land . this area was a refuge for persecuted Christians . The cause of their persecution was their beliefs in only scripture . Their meeting places were fields and houses . their church buildings were decorated with one sentence .: GOD IS LOVE . They gave everything to their faith ,they shared everything , such a simple faith , they evangelised the whole region and their are signs of their existence still today . They built the whole region , they brought life and love of Christ everywhere they settled . Jean Calvin brought persecution , prison ,Death ! What people call Calvinism other people call persecution. it's not sound doctrine . it another gospel .
But now he just said when you get up God is regenerating you....make up your mind, walking forward and praying with a pastor is the work of a witch like you said or of God. You are confusing and God is not the author of confusion. So your saved before you put your faith in Christ? And now Matt Chandler is equating the work of the Holy Spirit to an Evil act!!!!!
That was just so wrong of Matt to say that the fact someone goes to the alter to pray to ask Jesus into his heart is witchcraft… God can use this “going forward” to call us to Him. God forgive him🙏🏻
You said no scholar would make that argument.... You haven't been in many sbc groups that disagree with reformed theology I guess. I'm working on listening to all of your videos to actually see why you feel the need to divide God's body so badly. Is this the biggest issue in the body of Christ that we should be concerned with? We are finite in the design of the Lord and none of us are omniscient.
Here's what God predestined and foreknew:"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5 In all wisdom and prudence God made His grace to abound toward bringing to fruition a New creature created In Christ. Seeing therefore that God predestinated us confirmed to the image of His Son ; And until we all come unto the Unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God; Unto the measure of the Stature of Christ: God for knew us in knowing His Son and we confirmed to the image of His Son.We were for known In Christ to be Holy and without blame before Him in Love called unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ unto Himself. Ephesians 2:10, 4:13, Romans 8:28-30, 2 Corinthians 3:18. Take heed that you not go astray with superfluity of mind; that you behold your own natural face rather than being confirmed to the image of Christ.
Whom did God foreknew? Perhaps it was the children of Israel: "You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:2 KJV I challenge you to find any passage where God says he foreknew a Gentile. Dan
"Whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son" Your view is untenable. If what you say is true, then every Israelite will be conformed to Jesus' image. No, it's specifically the apostles in view.
Sam, the context in rom 11 12 shows the "foreknown" of God to be physical Israel, I agree. However, in Rom 8 29, "foreknown" is clearly referring to a more specific group of Israelites that actually believe in Christ because there is only no condemnation to those who are in Christ. Your assertion that progenosko always and necessarily refers to all Israelites cannot be correct. We all know that it's the context that defines the word. Progenosko is also is used in 2 pet 3 17 and it simply refers to "things" known before.
My point is, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and 1 Peter 1-2 were not written to the Gentiles, as Calvinism claims, but to those under the law. In other words, no Gentiles are/were of the elect, the predestinated, or the foreknown. Dan
So Amos 3:2 whats your point? Your just throwing out scripture with the word knew you. You cant even explain it. All these verses proves God's omniscience. Your not backing up you point. And what does knowing the righteous and knowing the wicked? Thought we were all TOTALLY DEPRAVED? How confusing you are. Your confused. Satan will distort the truth like Calvinism and Matt has been deceived.
In the context, 'Firstborn' refers to that aspect of Christ being the firstborn from the dead. The first to overcome the enemy of death that was brought into the world by sin. It is only in this sense that we can be brothers of Christ in a new creation as sons of God raised from death free of sin and glorified.
WIth faith THEIR IS NO BOASTING. Jesus paid the full price for me with His own blood. I did not do it. He says 'believe in me'. If I simply believe in Him there is nothing to boast about. 'For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (Romans 4:3, NASB) Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (Romans 4:4, NASB) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5, NASB)
Did anybody here buy Leighton flowers book? If you did would you be able to go over it with me? Just trying to understand it a bit more. Thank you let me know.
This is what happened to me the day I got saved. I heard the gospel very powerfully preached by a very godly man. I was convicted of sin. The preacher invited me forward. Though I had tried to leave the auditorium prior to that, I responded to the altar call. I still felt the guilt and heaviness while standing at the altar. But after I prayed the sinners prayer, miraculously I felt the weight of sin and the burden of guilt lifted of me. I felt so much peace, light and joyful that I was ready to live all my life for Christ. I began preaching to my friends almost immediately and have not relented since.
That was over 40 years ago but I still remember it like yesterday.
Good testimony my friend . Reality instead of the Calvinist view .
God bless and keep you Leighton, you are battling against principalities and strongholds. Press on for God's love and provision.
The pride and arrogance of our Calvinist brethren I need grace to withstand. I don't think I would be able to listen to Chandler in real life without just walking out mid sermon.
why is that?
Jericho Leon Amen brother! 👊
@@josiahsmailes791 they really belittle others
amen, no one is FOREKNOWN until they are in christ, because if we read on in ephesiens 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having NO HOPE, and WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD:
13 "BUT NOW" "IN CHRIST JESUS" ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
GALATIANS 4
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 "BUT NOW", after that ye have known God, OR RATHER ARE KNOWN OF GOD, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? note note
CHRIST IS THE ELECT, PREDESTINED, CHOSEN, PREDESTINED, GLORIFIED.
MATT IS IN TREMENDOUS TREMENDOUS ERROR AND HE IS POSSESSED BY THIS GNOSTICISM AND MENACHIANISM PHILOSOPHY OF AUGUSTINE.
Roman's 8 is the guaranteed future of the believers not unbelievers.
Be Blessed
10 min I would walk out. the same calvinist sermon, no one grows, calvinist preach calvinism to the saved, Christian's preach the gospel to the lost.
My nephew had us listen to Matt on the end times. I listened to one in the series. I realized that I can't bear to hear pastors that raise their voices or use inflections in order to get emotional reactions. I don't mind humor or a sad story as an illustration... but not "priming the pump" by using rants, or sarcasm, or scoffing, etc. Let the Spirit work on our hearts to bring about the correct emotion that HE wants. It might be different in each individual heart, not a mass emotion induced by what the speaker wants.
If I knew a Calvinist who spoke with as much humility as Dr Flowers does then I might be persuaded... if possible... ahem. (Very unlikely)
I have yet to meet such a Calvinist 🤣🤣
I’m in a great church with a bunch of kind Calvinists but still not persuaded 😂
I know extremely humble calvinist, they are still wrong😜
Why is it so difficult for Calvinists to present opposing viewpoints fairly?
Because they're as deceitful and dishonest as their calvinistic religion .
Because they would realize the absurdity of their position.
Mind blowing......Romans 8:28-30 is basically a history lesson that Paul is giving. We can learn from saints that God foreknew (David, Issac, Jacob) as to what will happen to Christians today. The old Saints loved God, and so do we, there for we are Foreknown of God. Gal 4:9 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Thank you for this.....I feel like the Arminian/Calvinistic chains have fallen off me.
I can see why people like listening to Matt Chandler. I wish he would have time to sit down with Leighton. Honestly, I think those are the best conversations. Thanks Leighton for continually pushing these brothers.
Your level of kindness and patience towards people is admirable. Matt Chandler is basically openly mocking and ridiculing anyone who would disagree with him under the guise of 'sermon humor'. I can't find that one on the list of fruits of the spirit so it must come from somewhere else.
Watched this video a while ago and came back to it again as I was reading Determined to Believe by John Lennox.....the understanding of "foreknow" to simply mean to know beforehand makes this passage so clear and easily understood. It's saints of old, those whom God knew in the past. If we see what God has done in the past with those believers we can have confidence in what God intends for believers today. Take off the Calvinist glasses and the passage is so clear! Thanks Leighton for all you do!
@ Fenn Allen- This is exactly the way I interpreted as well. What’s really sad is that Calvinism always seems to make you second guess your first understanding of scripture ☹️
I don't know if I've heard that explanation of foreknew before but I agree that it does seem to fit the passage.
God Bless You Leighton. Your work is more important than most give credit. Calvinism paints pictures of a cruel and impersonal Diety that gives no value to individual choice and violates the very basis for the existence of love. Love MUST be freely given and an existence that invalidates choice, invalidates love at the same moment. Calvinism is indeed toxic to the relelation of our Lord and Savior. God Bless you and your work.
38:04 ... Wow. I finally got it. Wow. Those verses are about the past? *Mind blown*
A Calvinist asked me who initiated my salvation. I told him it was the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus. And whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
So you read them the bible :P
God did, of course. We love him because He first loved us.
Dr. Flowers, I am very grateful that you have taken the time to address these issues.
I think that it is important to re-examine the words "saved" and "salvation" in Romans. Paul does not use it to mean "go to heaven when you die." The text shows this because "saved" and "salvation" do not occur from Romans 1:18-5:8, even though the focus is depravity and deserved condemnation (1:18-3:18) and the righteousness of God now manifested in Jesus Christ and justification by faith alone (3:19-5:8).
The context of Paul's argument in Romans 10:9-10 shows that the "confession" in v.9 is consistent with the backward progression in v. 14--15= "call, believed, heard, preacher, sent." This shows that the concept of "saved" in Romans 10 for Israel is much more than just regeneration and eternal life. It's clear that they need "righteousness" from the context (10:1-6), but this righteousness is coupled with believing, not confessing (10:10). Confession (to me) for Israel seems to linked to the greater argument of the book as being the solution to avoiding the passive wrath of God (1:18-32; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 4:15; 5:9-[notice the parallels and the tenses with v.10]; 9:22).
Just my thoughts.
SALVATION:
May I direct your attention to the following Scriptures:
Exodus 14:13, 30; Ex 15:2
Psalm 27:1; Ps 35:3; Ps 38:22; Ps 62:2, 6; Ps 95:1; Ps 118:14;
Isaiah 3:2; Isa 49:6.
These are direct statements telling us that God (the Lord) Himself is our salvation.
Jesus said to His disciples - ABIDE IN ME Jn 15. In other words - Abide in your Salvation - I am your Salvation.
PAUL:
Whenever Paul is speaking about being in Christ, this is a plain statement that we are in the Salvation of God - for the Lord Jesus is our Salvation as well as our Light.
As to your "thoughts" on Romans per refs given.
Paul is by the Holy Spirit addressing the assembly at Rome. Some folk there think they are teachers but they do not practice what they preach - they speak Law, but breeak the Law in other areas.
Paul uses the Greek 'orge' (wrath - 3709 - Strong's) inm many places in his letter. The Greek meaning doesn't make reference to any "passive" wrath.
Have a look for yourself.
Israel for the mostpart wre looking to gain righteousness before God simply by keeping the Law. They did not obtain it because they did not seek it by faith as did many of their number (Heb 11 for example) - the remnant did.
But the salvation of God was still available to them - but they did not submit to the righeousness of God (10:3)
The quote in v 6 is from what Moses said in the wilderness (Deut 30:12-14)
Then Paul says "BECAUSE" (or therefore, etc). This reason did apply to Israel of old just as much as it did in Paul's day and in ours.
If you (they, me, the next generation) confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus AND believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead>
Caleb and Joshua had no 'knowledge of Jesus or his being crucified or raised from the dead.
However, Jesus says to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus on resurrection day, that ALL the prophets spoke of these things - (Lk 24). This included Moses, and because Joshua and Caleb had a different spirit in them than the rest, they would have by faith been able to grasp something of the prophetic meaing in Moses' words.
Confession of the mouth and believing in the heart are coupled together. Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. This surely would include what Paul is saying here in his letter.
The two actions work together in any generation for any people. And according to the Light given so it shall be.
I never could understand why some Christians believe that God chooses just a few of His fallen creation to believe in Jesus, but, then, on the other hand, it is not so surprising. We are all different and we often see things differently. What is surprising is that today so many Christians are being persuaded to accept this philosophy. It is rapidly becoming the predominant view in our churches. Not only that but Christians who do not accept this view are not concerned enough to challenge our growing number of Reformed pastors.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and yet our Reformed pastors today say that only those who are effectually called come to faith. And not only that, they say that the faith to believe is a gift from God. If people are not placing their personal faith in Christ but are waiting for this gift from God, then they could be waiting a long time.
This increase in Reformed Theology only confirms to me that we are living in the days where they will no longer endure sound doctrine.
Foreknowledge is simple when we shed the Calvinistic baggage. Simply ask the question: what is required for God to KNOW someone? A hint lies in Matthew 7:21-23. When Christ says “Depart from me I NEVER KNEW you”. The context suggests something other than His omniscient knowing, because OF COURSE God knew everything, but this text in proper context is referring to who God KNOWS as family. So when you read it through the lens of scripture and allow the Bible to interpret itself, the mystery is unveiled! He foreKNEW those who BELIEVE. In other words, God only recognizes those who CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. We need to stop injecting predeterminism into everything and omniscience into everything. The fact that God is omniscient is a given, but foreknowledge isn’t always speaking in that context. God KNOWS those that are His. How do you become HIS? Through BELIEVING. This context is consistently used throughout scripture. Calvinism is a poison that has rotted out perception. When unknowingly.
I love Matt. As a calvinist he was probably my favorite pastor. However isn't he doing the same thing he said the people playing games were doing? They would read for known and say well this is what I think it's saying. It seems, based upon his position, that he would read we believe so as to have life, and say I know it says that but this is what I really believe it's saying. Seems like it's a mental disconnect and double standard.💚
There must be a reason why God gave humans more intelligence than any of the animals. We're able to question the world around us, to read, comprehend, compare, contrast, learn from or disagree with others. And God gave us a moral conscience. To deny all this & simply fall back on the same lame Calvinist cop out that dead in Sin means we have zero ability to respond to God & His Gospel. It's a weak & worn out excuse which denies the gift & responsibility of intelligence which God bestowed on the human race.
Leighton, it looks like you have made a mistake with the 2 Peter 3:17 verse. This one appears to mean foreknowledge - as in “now that you have this foreknowledge“ and is not “since you already knew this before“.
PS thanks for your work, I have been appreciating your videos.
There are reasons to repent publicly. Matt Chandler, Platt, and Washer worship a theology not Christ. The problem with Calvinism is that its not from God.
Because this is such an important issue, I wouldn't refer to it as "just". Yes, maintain respect but because they obviously refuse what is written, how far do we take this tolerance, winsome as they can be or not?
To say that Chandler as a Calvinist has not "considered" a better biblical exegesis of election and predestination is to be way way way too generous. They consciously reject deriving meaning from these terms in context rather than importing Calvinism into them. They don't dare put their theology into an academic review by non-Calvinists. Calvinism is just really bad proof-texting method of reading Scripture. Any good seminary would have taught its students how to exegete. Calvinism is how to mishandle the text, nothing more.
17ACTSVERSE11 so... you’re saying you don’t believe in the Bible... JUST KIDDING ... ok sorry.
calvinism is a theology to try and prove the bible doesnt mean what it says. plain and simple.
I wonder if James White would say Matt is "jumping around the text"?
"Arrogance and pride go hand in hand;
and it can be the downfall of the man."
E.G. Hammer
'And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31, NKJV)' Notice the QUESTION - what must I DO to be saved? They didn't say, hey man you got it all wrong. They said BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. If they had no ability to do this that statement is false.
It’s a miss notion (straw man argument) to think or say that God has to take a flight into the future to see who would believe and put their faith in him or not, therefore knowing who would be saved or not. God is omniscient all knowing he knows already at the moment before creation who would willingly put their trust in him and who would willingly not. Why does God have to go down the Corders of time to have to come to a knowledge of something, that makes no sense. HE FOREKNEW. Because he is God. He allowed it to take place to have a personal relationship for eternity with those who would put their faith in him. Their faith didn’t save them only God saves. God tells us that those who put their faith in him and confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts shall be saved. That’s Gods choice of how he wants to do it.
Well said David. God knows because He is God!!! If God has to look into the future (like some Armenians say), then He's no longer omniscient (all knowing). If God's knowledge come from His decrees (like some Calvinists say), then He's not omniscient either.
R u calvinist or free will? Your point "Who trust him or who would willingly not."
Matt paraphrases his opponents to have them look like lower intelligent fools, in the name of humor, to sugarcoat his belief that God purposely created the vast majority specifically for the lake of fire, of which there is no salvation, hope, or escape.
The naive are drawn to this teaching style, & led astray with laughter & a smile on their faces.
What a shame.
VR:
Calvinist "humor" and laughter is often quite creepy.
I wonder if you watched R C Sproul's (last?) sermon, which was on the 500th Reformation Day.
Shortly into it, he says he doesn't think the nonelect will find God's plan for their lives "very wonderful" (referring to the bromide "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life").
Well, the assembled Calvinists get *rather a chuckle* out of that.
20july1944 -- Yes R.C, you're dead now.
By the same standard of measure of judgement you used, will be used against you.
Like Jobs 'friends' who spoke wrongly of God, R.C now joins their category, forever written in the pages of human history.
Most Calvinists are under the stronghold of pride - it's why debate will never change their minds.
Elwood M. Buel -- not just a debate, but logical conclusions leading to full blown contradictions also do not change their minds.
The more their leaders are praised by those who believe the same, the more invincibly stubborn they all become as a whole.
"Arrogance and pride go hand in hand;
and it can be the downfall of the man."
E.G. Hammer
Well done Leighton; the foreknow issue was explained quite well; disarming mis-conceptions!!
Calvinists often misrepresent other positions to make their position look the correct.
Even though I may not agree with Arminians but they are usually the ones with whom you can have a friendly disagreement.
Calvinism is called the "Doctrines of Grace", but I see the least grace in that camp.
I've really been enjoying your channel. Thanks a ton!! -Do you have anything (written/video/or audio) on Calvin's "P" -once saved always saved essentially? -I have my thoughts but I'd really love to hear yours.
I thought the Faith mentioned there is not faith in terms of our belief, but our belief, or the very faith we have. Like it's not about the state of believing, but the thing we believe in, which is then called "our faith" or "this our faith" or "this which we profess".
Hey Dr Flowers, I have a question about using clips from people's RUclips channels. There are people who would say we should go to the preacher privately and talk to them about what we think they are teaching wrong first, before making a video about them, what are your thoughts on that?
I would say Matt already has been confronted since he displays knowledge of what non-Calvinists believe and publicity rejects it (Maybe it was through private reading.)
Not teachers and pastors in the Word, they are to be called out publically~! The only time you take someone aside in private first is when they sin against you personally~! If they are teaching these things publically, they are to be called out publically, marked (judged righteously) and avoided, according to Scripture; except when they are used by God to teach valuable lessons, as Dr. Flowers does here~!
Mark Gallagher Mark is on point here. The sins and mis-steps of leaders are to be called out before everyone. Paul did the same to Peter in Ga. 2:14-16
I think Dr Flowers sets a high standard of how to address differences respectfully and equitably. He calls them brothers and is charitable to not misrepresent others. Contrast his approach to many "heresy hunter" websites that lack evaluative rigor and discipline. They often operate in unjustifiable condemnation based on minimal evidence, and have next to zero Christian goodwill.
Just the other day when reading this passage I was asking myself why Paul was using past tense! Thanks Dr. Flowers!
Because Paul was speaking of the Saints of old.
Wow thanks for that, must go through it slowly, also cleared up for me the confession with the mouth. I was stuck in WOF, for a little bit. They wrongly say that words themselves contain a force that saves you. But as I understand what he is saying, our confession is simply like baptism, a confession of Jesus and his saving power for my bad heart..
Grant Holland The original WOF idea was actually good. It originally started out as merely praying the scriptures as a part of life application. It got corrupted with New Age thought however and went off the deep end ( like you mentioned people started believing their words were a force). We just need to get back to scripture. And not in a way that condemns but brings unity.
@@kevinlucas9905 yup amen, we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thank the Lord for them
It's so annoying that people take Ephesians 2 and say that your faith is the gift of God referenced here. It's so plainly referring to salvation by grace which is the gift, it's describing the MEANS by saying through faith. That's why he contrasts faith and works saying it's by faith and not of works. Faith is not a work according to God. You have to have a presupposition that you cannot respond to God b/c you're corpse like dead in sin, and then conclude that it means that the faith must be a gift to then since you can't believe. WRONG.
I don't want our money to be spent on seminaries that teach Calvinism only.
Foreknew in this context simply means knew beforehand, namely in an intimate way, before the creation of the world. This includes us (His adopted children), not just speaking of the saints of old from the past.
Doesn't sound like it man. When you read it in context it isn't talking about the current believers.
What's compelled you to get out of your seating come forward?
Nothing. We are called to give out of compulsion. God lives a cheerful giver.
How can you tell if someone is a calvinist?... They'll tell you.
Wow. First I've ever heard this take on foreknown as simply "the saints who knew God in the past but who have died." And it fits the context hand in glove. I was already long out of Calvinism, but you always love it when a semi-obscure passage becomes clear and at least for now I'm thinking that's what I just got. Reminds me of "sin unto death" in 1 Jn. 5, which I'm grateful someone taught me to look at as simply "was walking in unbelief and has now died," similar to "remaining faithful unto death." Clearly cases where posterity got lost in translation a little bit and sent off the right track.
If Calvinism has THAT MANY errors, including their misinterpretation of the Gospel, shouldn’t you or us for that matter, start using the harshest of words in a stern rebuke. Did not Paul say, “If any man comes preaching any OTHER Gospel other than the one you’ve received from me, let them be accursed” and if the Apostle Paul offered such stern words, why then are we, for lack of a better term, being way to nice, as it were. Calvinism is a doctrine that leads to other damaging doctrines such as Lordship Salvation which only burdens you to the point of exhaustion, the least of which is spiritual. These doctrines really mess people up, and IMO need to be addressed in a more harsher way. JMO
Excellent exposition.
Very well put!
Calvinists don't believe that we have a "free will" which allows us to choose God. So without that foundational truth, then the Calvinist view is free to misinterpret other aspects of God's word, as well. Also, the term predestination means "to mark out beforehand," and refers to the plan and goal of salvation itself, not to specific individuals. It should be understood in the corporate sense, rather than in the sense that each individual was predestined to either eternal life or eternal condemnation.
Acts 13:48 should get you to reject that idea...
God adds as many to His church as He determined should be saved, amen.
You’re normally on point but where does it say in John we need to confess anything verbally?
I wonder how prognosko would have been taught to rhetoricians... "how to use this" when preparing a persuasive aimed argument (ie: Romans (come to faith), Hebrews (don't leave your faith)) .... I wonder if this was a key word that greco-roman audiences would catch (like Matthew using "behold" in his Gospel)
C.H.Surgeon was asked , How do you reconcile God's sovereignty and man's responsibility . He replied , you can't reconcile friends. Trust in Jesus , believe on our Lord and you will be saved by grace through faith.
Tension within scripture keeps us balanced , after all great is the mystery of Godliness.
Well it's not that big of a mystery because he tells you right after he says that :
1 Timothy 3:16b
He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
If determinism is the case then none of the Bible makes any sense.
Why's pastor Chandler bringing out a bunch of instances of the word "Knew" while critiquing the word, "Foreknew"?
Foreknowledge is not exactly the same thing as knowing someone in the present or past.
Hey Dr. Flowers, have you considered making some kind of visual chart to explain these different interpretations? Especially with the Greek Words. Maybe we need a simple Acronym like TULIP. I'm able to get very deep into theology and philosophy and understand things on a technical level, but for some reason, uncalvanizing these verses always confuses me, I get lost in the weeds so easily, and its so much to remember. I feel like I can't debate calvanists because I'm still not understanding every scripture, every greek word, every interpretation, every calvanist rebuttal, and I'll end up reverting back to the philosophical arguments that they always reject, which usually leads me to instant frustration talking to them
Never thought about it like that but your right, TULIP is a purely philosophical argument about those verses, but if you use any of your own philosophy they accuse you of not being 100% about the text. Here's my argument that makes it a close and shut case for me personally
Its wrong to force some one to love you against their will
In Calvanism, God forces some humans to love him against their will
God is morally perfect, so He cant do anything wrong
Therefore, Calvanism doesn't allow for belief in a morally perfect God
Doesn't matter how air tight and logical that argument is, they will reject it if I cant uncalvinize their verses effectively. I know Paul is talking about Isreal in Romans 8, 9, 10 and 11, and our salvation is a future inheritance as explained in Ephesians, but there seems to be no easy, systematic way to explain it yet. We're always going the long way around, but maybe thats all there is, I dont know yet
Wouldn’t this interpretation of Roman’s 8:30 mean OT saints have already been glorified? Isn’t this said to happen at the same time with current believers at the Return of Christ and bodily resurrection?
I have news for Matt Chandler … bad news! Paul doesn't use slang, at all. So let's see what Paul suggested those he felt were misrepresenting the Gospel should do! Gal 5:12 was referring to someone who was agitating for all christian (males) to be circumcised. Saying faith is a specific gift is to my mind as bad as telling someone they need to be circimcised, both are entirely wrong. So when Matt Chandler looks again at Ep 2:8 and accepts that the Greek doesn't support faith being a gift (salvation through faith IS the gift) he can either repent or do the right thing and get an orchidectomy! Please note the non-use of slang which in this case would be to "remove his balls"! 😮😂😂😂😂😬
Hello sir my name is Alberto Celaya and well I consider myself a Calvinist but to be honest I have many questions and I am doubting a lot of things about my beliefs I was wondering if there was a way we can talk ? I am from Yuma Arizona I found you on RUclips thank you for reading this
Alberto, Leighton rarely comments here, probably because he is such a busy guy. Please ask questions anyway. You may get the answers you're looking for from others.
Peace
Yeah you guys can look me up on Facebook my name is Alberto Celaya the picture I have is of me holding a baby I have black glasses on.
Thank you guys for your response.
Sorry, I don't facebook
Cool you can email me. Thank you for responding.
It seems that so many have discounted the necessity of confession but Christ said "if you confess me before men I will confess you before the Father." Did He mean this or not? If a person believed and responds to the call to come but does not end up confessing then what happens to him.
The Bible says:
21 Was not our father Abraham JUSTIFIED by what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith was working WITH his actions, and his faith was PERFECTED BY what he did. 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God.…
(James 2:21-23)
LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. Most humans before they are borne and before they commit a sinful act are DAMNED to HELL for eternity, and then God blames the DAMNED for being DAMNED even though God made them that way. LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. Paul did not know if he was one of the elect; Paul is in complete control over his life: “. . . but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified” (1 Corinthians 9:27). Am I missing something?
Yes, you're missing Calvinism and Thanks to God for that.
@@SpaceCadet4Jesus Please explain.
@@artemusbowdler7508 Calvinism is like a poisoned arrow aiming for your heart. Thank God it missed.
Time for a light hearted joke! So ... what is Leighton's favourite song? Ans: Tiptoe through the TULIPS!
There's more than one TULIP because Calvinists can never quite agree among themselves so I felt justified in using the plural! I know explaining a joke kind of kills it😮😂 so just enjoy it for what it is😂😂😁
Its the grace that is the gift of God received by faith
Grace is unmerited forgiveness. We didn't earn it.
@@0485steveOc Exactly. There is nothing to boast about if you simply believed. But Calvinists have to say then you did something which is really calling it a work and the bible is clear faith is not a work.
So clear and coherent with all of scripture. Tq for helping me understand this passage.
Matt Chandler’s usage of the term”playing games” wasn’t winsome it was demeaning.
God did not say “ confess with your mouth “JESUS IS LORD,” He said “ That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth THE LORD JESUS,....”
The difference is who you are confessing, not what you are confessing.
Romans 10:9 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Go:
Why is the Vintner *angry* at the fruitless fig tree in that parable?
Why does the loving Vinedresser fear for its welfare?
20: The fig tree is a symbol for Israel, it was barren and was “cut down.”
Go:
Why does the Vinedresser want to save it if the Vintner is so angry at it?
In what way was Israel "barren"?
Are you saying Jesus is saying there was no legitimate faith in YHWH among the Jews of His time?
Orin Moses That's good. Why would God even write the bible if we're all robots going about our predestined ways?
The fact is Calvinists cannot fathom God having sovereignty and humanity having free will. I think the God of the bible, not Calvinism's small god, is so much greater.
Faith IS NOT the gift in Ephesians 2:8-9!!! The gift IS salvation that we get BY grace THROUGH faith!!! And that is what is not done by us but rather by GOD ALONE!!! Even atheists HAVE faith!!!
You have a lot of good things to say but your videos are painfully long. I wish you would be more direct in getting to your point or break things up into portions so I could snag a complete thought in my limited time to focus. I have kids!
I love the long form vids
can someone tell me where in scripture exactly is alter call call or walk forward or anyother name someone may call it
No I think that may have been invented by Charles Finney during his revivals. So a very recent invention
check out Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:8
that is the basis of the modern phenomena.
Remember that John called people publicly to repent and be baptized in water. This was often a steady stream of people.
Jesus also practiced the same thing as did His discples. John 4.
People confessed Jesus Christ publicly before believers and unbelievers.
Nicodemus was rather secretive about his discipleship to Jesus.
Cornelius anda household were all baptized immediately following the remarkable presence of the Holy Spirit falling upon them.
None of this was done in a corner.
Also in the Philippian jail, the jailor's household were baptized that night after confessing Chist and hearing the gosple preached.
No knowing what I know I think Chandler and Piper among others are confused into ceive there in a twist and give you their span are a lot of scripture and it could definitely damage someone's Christian walk and Christian life
Repent and believe. Take the word Calvin out of your argument and just do what the word tells you to do.
Matt Chandler is adept at making comical straw men
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2.10-14)
Non Christians are incapable of understanding the things of God. Faith doesnt preceed regeneration. The Spirit regenerates the heart and enlightens the mind. Faith is a sign of the work of God.
I think there is a distinction between between 1 Cor 1:26 and 1 Cor 2:6. On one side there is the simplicity of the gospel or the weak/foolish way in which the message is brought and a person is called to believe. And the other side is where Paul talks about we speak in wisdom among those who are mature vs.6.
So there is a distinction the calling is not mysterious or something unattainable by the natural man, in contrast it is something weak and lowely as to nullify the things that are. It is a resting of oneself, a trusting on another. But for the mature there is more that is given to them in Christ which is revealed through the revelation of the spirit, which has been given to those who believed even when the message was foolish. And Paul didn't start with these mysteries, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; " These things have never entered the human heart, all the things God has prepared for who? Those who love Him. There is no mention of the love as a mystery, or the resting of oneself on Christ, as if that's what needed to be revealed. As Paul continues you see more of the distinction between infants, milk and solid food. They are still fleshy and are busy with things not of the Spirit: "Servants through whom you believed". Paul and Apollos water and seed, God grows, they do weak/foolish basic stuff, God grows.
In Zechariah 13:8-9, God foretold that when his day to make up his possessions comes, he will purify and test the third of mankind, while the two-thirds will be struck down and perish.
Before that day comes, God predestined already the fate of two groups of people. Can we diminish or add that preordained numbers? Obviously not.
Another example is about Esau and Jacob before they are even born. One is loved and the other hated. One is for shame and the other for glory.
One will say, "Then why God still blame us as sinners? For who can resist his will?"
Others might say, "If that is so, then we have no free will. Our free will is nothing but illusory."
Paul answered that with an allegorical question: "Does the potter have no right to make to kinds of vessel from the same lump of clay? What if he wants to show his great patience to those who are destined for destruction and his great mercy to those he called out?"
"If the will of Jesus is the will of God, will you say, 'Jesus has no free will?'"
I have to say this; if Calvinism is a lie, wouldn't that make it a heresy~? In addition: If it is a salvific issue and a lie, that would make it a false gospel, would it not~!?
What are we told to do: " "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)
There are other Scriptures as well and I don't with this group I have to list them all but I will if I have to~!
I agree. Flowers and others are not brave enough to say exactly what you just explained.
I have asked this same question about other heretical teaching from pastors famous and not famous and all you get is hemming and hawing as they dance around. I had one actually say yes, but in a flash say they are brothers and sisters in Christ.
I would consider it a false gospel if Calvinists were making the claim that Jesus is not the way to salvation. Calvinists don't do that. They fully acknowledge that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation. The difference is whether or not God is the effectual cause of whether a person places their faith in him or not. So I wouldn't call it a heresy or a false gospel. I disagree with Calvinism, but I do believe many Calvinists are well meaning brothers in Christ that are truly trying to understand the scriptures and have simply come to the wrong conclusions through their interpretation of Romans 9, John 6, Ephesians 1, etc. I believe disagreeing with Calvinists and defending our belief in our theological position on salvation is an example of how we are to sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.
@Brolo Bowline I'm sorry to have to say.. but "modern church doctrine" is utter garbage.
..sorry.. I'm done making excuses for the maelstrom of confusion and dishonestly that is Systematic Theology.
If they attempted to inject Platonic thought into Christian doctrine they were wrong to do so... period.
Maybe I would have done the same thing myself! If I were contending against Catholics... but if I did I hope someone would call me out on it for being so wrong.
No one needed it for 400 years... Augustine who thinks it's OK to force conversion.. Origen.. a false teacher.. and Plato, am unregenerate pagan... THESE also preceded him.
kelvyquayo - I totally agree with you. I do believe that is why we were warned in Colossians 2 to “take heed”- “Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:” Colossians 2:8 .
Mark Gallagher I have wondered the same thing myself. If Calvinism makes you doubt your salvation and doubt makes you loose your faith then how can this teaching not be considered heretical?
People make this debate too much on how much theological training you have. The Bible is the Bible regardless of your training. This is about what the text says written by an infinitntely old, all knowing God; not what a theological book says written by a 50 year old mortal man
Just want to add one thing I disagree with. You are justified the MOMENT YOU BELIEVE. When you profess with you mouth, and are “saved” it’s referring to temporal salvation, NOT justification, which is why they are stated separately. When you confess Christ or “call upon the Lord and are saved” the “salvation” here isn’t soteriological. So we cannot add to the gospel message in John 3:16. Belief is the ONLY prerequisite for justification. It’s clear in this verse. I agree that regeneration MUST happen AFTER BELIEF. Chandler is DEAD WRONG.
Who did God foreknow? I think once we settle that question then we can settle the rest.
Having prior knowledge is not the same as picking people for salvation. "Foreknow" is not a verb. God foreknew (had prior knowledge) of who would choose him. Therefore, those who chose to follow Christ, God knows. Therefore, he predestined those who chose to follow Christ "to be conformed to the image of his son".
I think it means who He knew before hand. Not who would choose Him but who He literally knows. Like Paul says in Galatians "now that you've come to know God or rather to be known by God" it's biblical knowing... For we are the Bride of Christ.
@@jessj2180 we didn't choose Jesus but he chose us
David Ochieng That’s rather vague. Please explain your thinking?
I love Matt CHandler but definitely disagree with his Calvinistic views.
Josh Anderson Art I love him and David Platt but the more I listen the less I am able to because their teachings ooze Calvinism and it becomes more apparent the more you are aware.
JOHN 17 ANSWERS FOREKNOWLEDGE
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL BELIEVE ON ME through their word;
21 That they all may be ONE; as thou, Father, ART IN ME, and I IN THEE, that THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE:
23 I IN THEM, and THOU IN ME, that they may be made PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast LOVED THEM, as thou HAST LOVED ME.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for THOU LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: THAT THE LOVE WHEREWITH THOU HAST LOVED ME MAY BE IN THEM, AND I IN THEM.
YOU "(CALVINIST)" WERE NOT KNOWN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD UNTIL YOU WERE PLACED INTO CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED NOT BEFORE.
The first ten minutes in is exactly the way I view foreknowledge and predestination, which I would call foreordaination. And I believe this as a Mormon. Not as a evangelical Christian.
I find that in many respects I have a ton in common with the views held by Leighton Flowers that many of the professing Christians I've talked to.
I just had a conversation with a person who says they are not a cavinist but they just read the bible as it is. 🤦♂️🤯
You are saying that why would got show his frustration if he was the one who ultimately causes those people not to believe.
The argument this person had is that God didnt cause it. People are born "evil" and not desiring God. We are all naturally not searching for God there for God did not elect other to not believe because they already didnt believe.
By the way im strongly convinced calvinism is wrong. Im just not best at having a debate with others. What would you say to this person.
Its like he is purposely saying he isnt a calvinist to confuse people but then he will go and sneak in facts about electing and predestination under the surface?
Paul actually did use slang lol he had to match the language and slang of the people everywhere he want to teach and preach.
Gen 6:5 And GOD ''SAW'' that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
"But Noah found (acquired) grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a JUST (LAWFUL) man and PERFECT* in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Gen 6:8-9
(PERFECT: From Heb. 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole)
It always amazes me how a simple reading of "the" Word of God, the KJB, clears all this confusion. Once we believe the Gospel of Grace through our own free will, we are saved by the Faith of Christ, not our own personal faith in Christ. Had Christ not acted upon His Faith that God would indeed raise Him from the dead, we would all be bound for hell.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 - KJV
The order of salvation is: our belief, then we are gifted the Faith of Christ, then we are regenerated. The Calvinist falsely claims regeneration comes first. Calvinism is heresy.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 -KJV
Well so much for the preacher in the video within this video, but what of the speaker? IMO he carries the other view a bit to far.
He ends up placing all the OT Saints in Christ, in the Body when scripture places them in the Lord. (Isa 45:17)
Then in the Tribulation, when God is again dealing with Israel, the Bible places the Trib Saints in the Lord. (Rev 14:13)
The Bible maintains the separation of the Body of Christ and the Jew and so should we.
If all OT Saints are in Christ, in the Body, then who are the guest at the wedding of Matt 22?
I haven't watched the video, sorry. I just want some insight.
QUESTION: Why would Jesus say that it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? Does God prefer to save poor people? Shouldn't it not make a difference for how "hard" it is for rich to become saved vs poor if God is the one who chooses individuals for salvation based on whatever arbitrary method he chooses? If it's the case God chooses to save poor people more, then theoretically, the United States (compared to the rest of the world) would be screwed for being picked for salvation.
Jess J great question! Unfortunately if you view the bible as adhering to the doctrines of Calvinism, then that statement that Jesus made has no significance, as the salvation of the chosen few had already been determined long before He became flesh.
But, if you do not try to make the Bible fit Calvinism, and allow God to speak to you through His word, then that statement carries words of wisdom and words of warning.
There are two kingdoms present. There is the kingdom of this world in its present sinful state. It is ruled by the prince of this world, Satan. We are all born into this kingdom in our sinfulness. This kingdom is slated for destruction, along with those whose loyalties reside here.
The second kingdom is the kingdom of heaven, a kingdom we can, for the present, only be a part of Spiritually. We are born into this kingdom when we believe in Christ as Saviour.
The difficulty for the rich, (also for the poor, but more so for the rich) is that wealth brings certain physical security, ease of living, and distractions. If you have some measure of financial security, ease of life, and certain distractions your needs are largely met, and you are less inclined to pursue Christ as Saviour. Those who don’t see a need to be saved from their life are less likely to be saved to life.
It’s a very good question and points out one of many conflicts Calvinism has with the bible.
just yet another unanswerable questions when you just think through the calvinist doctrine for just a few minutes haha.
Carmel is huge and the hole of a needle is to small can he by himself pass through the small hole?Answer is no,God can make him pass through he created him.Yes those with hardened hearts to believe him he can change them to believe him.God can make a way where seems to be no way
Pro 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Amanda & Chris Deysel
READ THIS 3 VITAL VERSES WHERE YHWH GOD IS SPEAKING.
HOSEA 8:4 "THEY SET UP KINGS WITHOUT MY CONSENT; THEY CHOOSE PRINCES WITHOUT MY APPROVAL. WITH THEIR SILVER AND GOLD THEY MAKE IDOLS FOR THEMSELVES TO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION."
THIS PEOPLE WERE MAKING IDOLS FOR THEMSELVES W/O GODS APPROVAL. THAT IS CALLED FREE WILL. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T.
JEREMIAH 19:5 "THEY HAVE BUILT THE HIGH PLACES OF BAAL TO BURN THEIR CHILDREN IN THE FIRE AS OFFERINGS TO BAAL--SOMETHING I DID NOT COMMAND OR MENTION, NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND."
GOD DID NOT COMMAND, MENTION OR ENTER HIS MIND FOR THIS PEOPLE TO BURN THIS CHILDREN AS OFFERINGS TO BAAL. THIS PEOPLE HAD A FREE WILL OBEYING OR DISOBEYING GOD. THEY CHOSED TO DISOBEY GOD. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T.
JEREMIAH 32:35 "THEY SET UP THEIR VILE IMAGES IN THE HOUSE THAT BEARS MY NAME AND DEFILED IT. 35 THEY BUILT HIGH PLACES FOR BAAL IN THE VALLEY OF BEN HINNOM TO SACRIFICE THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO MOLEK, THOUGH I NEVER COMMANDED-NOR DID IT ENTER MY MIND-THAT THEY SHOULD DO SUCH A DETESTABLE THING AND SO MAKE JUDAH SIN."
GOD DID NOT COMMAND THIS PEOPLE 2 SACRIFICE THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS FOR BAAL. THIS PEOPLE DID IT ANYWAYS. WE CALL THAT FREE WILL. AN OMNIBENEVOLENT, OMNISCIENT, AND OMNIPOTENT GOD I SERVE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS IF HE WANTED 2. HE DIDN’T
THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU .
@@mercibeaucoup2639 amen,and so is the bible full of verses stating man makes his own choices.
@@mercibeaucoup2639 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Wow, he's so pompous and condescending...😬
Like it's been said before, Calvinists and non-Calvinists are using the same words, but using quite different dictionaries! By "foreknew" they really mean "decreed beforehand" because of their kind of strange
PLUS THEY ALWAYS CONFLATE FAITH WITH A WORK! Thus they waste the entire first several chapters of Romans, which takes the time to talk about faith as being SEPARATE from works!
This is their life, acting crazy & insulting just like Calvin himself. Boy, I hear boasting don't you. Their lives are all about boasting
Ironically, they don't believe they are boasting, but believe anyone who doesn't agree with them is.
The knowledge discussed is interpersonal it has nothing to do with acknowledgement or being aware of.
'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9, NKJV)' Calvinists really have a poor calvinist lens understanding of this verse. What is the gift of God? SALVATION. It's from God by grace through faith that you receive it. And then they'll usually say that's a work. Seriously? I could post a bunch of scripture that directly say beyond the shadow of a doubt that faith is not a work. They really think the only way God can know things is if He is the author of all of it - that is putting a box or a limit on God's understanding and the bible says His understanding has no limit. AS IF a fallen man is going to understand what the eternal God knows and how he knows it!
He starts assuming that He is more knowledgeable than the Dogs ,The Fools .
They talk a word or apart of scripture until it's beaten so flat that context is completely gone .
also it's just about ego !
this is why so many are leaving Calvinism .
The Apostle brought faith with them in the form of scripture ..!
in the firm of preaching !
in the form of compassion .!
a strong faith is evidence based , it is strengthened through the gospel ,eye witness
testimony .
etc .
if you believe in your heart and declare with your mouth , Jesus Christ is lord .
Even athiests have great faith,it takes a lot of faith to believe what athiests believe .
and they believe what they believe is true ...!
Nothing produced everything !
but they have no eye witness testimony !
their faith is blind !
also they assume things that God doesn't say ,they use inference ,a lot !
they also think the believer isnt capable of reading scripture ,or understanding what they've read .
Listening to Calvinists who have left Calvinism
is an eye opener .
They seem to be under shock , they have just left a sect, a guru , a bad school .
they often have the signs of emotional abuse .
and then they experience the love of a real family and a real farther , the Idea of love is so deformed .
I can't help but say Calvinism is distorting
the image of GOD .
I was living in the south of France, on the Côte-d'Azur , in history it was a region that was Christian evangelist .
there were many groups of Christians
living in communities
and practicing their faith as bible beleiving Christians .
I now live in another region which was a sanctuary for Bible beleiving Christians .
these Christians were what we would call bereans , they interpreted scripture daily from study of the scriptures .
all the Christians of the
Côte-d'Azur were exterminated in a crusade against them .
over a million people died , the region where I am now Christians were forced to live under ground in caves
in the sides of the mountains, they weren't allowed to burry their loved ones in cemetery's they had to burry their loved ones on their own land .
this area was a refuge for persecuted Christians .
The cause of their persecution was their beliefs in only scripture .
Their meeting places were fields and houses .
their church buildings were decorated with one sentence .:
GOD IS LOVE .
They gave everything to their faith ,they shared everything , such a simple faith , they evangelised the whole region and their are signs of their existence still today .
They built the whole region , they brought life and love of Christ everywhere they settled .
Jean Calvin brought persecution , prison ,Death !
What people call Calvinism other people call persecution.
it's not sound doctrine .
it another gospel .
Some serious exegetical gymnastics at Psalm 1:6 where he says the way God knows the righteous is different from the way He know the wicked...
But now he just said when you get up God is regenerating you....make up your mind, walking forward and praying with a pastor is the work of a witch like you said or of God. You are confusing and God is not the author of confusion. So your saved before you put your faith in Christ? And now Matt Chandler is equating the work of the Holy Spirit to an Evil act!!!!!
That was just so wrong of Matt to say that the fact someone goes to the alter to pray to ask Jesus into his heart is witchcraft… God can use this “going forward” to call us to Him. God forgive him🙏🏻
Everyone Jesus ever called, He did it publicly.
These guys, aren't they just so petty, nit-picking everything - majoring on minors?
You said no scholar would make that argument.... You haven't been in many sbc groups that disagree with reformed theology I guess. I'm working on listening to all of your videos to actually see why you feel the need to divide God's body so badly. Is this the biggest issue in the body of Christ that we should be concerned with? We are finite in the design of the Lord and none of us are omniscient.
Pastor Chandler is treading on dangerous ground.
Here's what God predestined and foreknew:"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5
In all wisdom and prudence God made His grace to abound toward bringing to fruition a New creature created In Christ.
Seeing therefore that God predestinated us confirmed to the image of His Son ; And until we all come unto the Unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God; Unto the measure of the Stature of Christ: God for knew us in knowing His Son and we confirmed to the image of His Son.We were for known In Christ to be Holy and without blame before Him in Love called unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ unto Himself.
Ephesians 2:10, 4:13, Romans 8:28-30, 2 Corinthians 3:18.
Take heed that you not go astray with superfluity of mind; that you behold your own natural face rather than being confirmed to the image of Christ.
Thank you for the powerful unpacking and sharing of this word. I'm truly blessed with it.
God bless you 🙏
Whom did God foreknew? Perhaps it was the children of Israel:
"You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:2 KJV
I challenge you to find any passage where God says he foreknew a Gentile.
Dan
"Whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son" Your view is untenable. If what you say is true, then every Israelite will be conformed to Jesus' image. No, it's specifically the apostles in view.
Bible Research Tools has God rejected those he foreknew? Obviously speaking of Israelites.
Sam, the context in rom 11 12 shows the "foreknown" of God to be physical Israel, I agree.
However, in Rom 8 29, "foreknown" is clearly referring to a more specific group of Israelites that actually believe in Christ because there is only no condemnation to those who are in Christ.
Your assertion that progenosko always and necessarily refers to all Israelites cannot be correct. We all know that it's the context that defines the word.
Progenosko is also is used in 2 pet 3 17 and it simply refers to "things" known before.
Thanks, Rav
My point is, Romans 9, Ephesians 1, and 1 Peter 1-2 were not written to the Gentiles, as Calvinism claims, but to those under the law. In other words, no Gentiles are/were of the elect, the predestinated, or the foreknown.
Dan
So Amos 3:2 whats your point? Your just throwing out scripture with the word knew you. You cant even explain it. All these verses proves God's omniscience. Your not backing up you point. And what does knowing the righteous and knowing the wicked? Thought we were all TOTALLY DEPRAVED? How confusing you are. Your confused. Satan will distort the truth like Calvinism and Matt has been deceived.
In the context, 'Firstborn' refers to that aspect of Christ being the firstborn from the dead. The first to overcome the enemy of death that was brought into the world by sin. It is only in this sense that we can be brothers of Christ in a new creation as sons of God raised from death free of sin and glorified.
Mr. Layton flowers could you please give me your email
WIth faith THEIR IS NO BOASTING. Jesus paid the full price for me with His own blood. I did not do it. He says 'believe in me'. If I simply believe in Him there is nothing to boast about. 'For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” (Romans 4:3, NASB) Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. (Romans 4:4, NASB) But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, (Romans 4:5, NASB)
Did anybody here buy Leighton flowers book? If you did would you be able to go over it with me? Just trying to understand it a bit more. Thank you let me know.