True. Is-3 should fulfill the same role as Tiger II(H) does. But instead it is constantly slapped by ATGM, HEAT-FS and APFSDS with over 400 mm pen. Why put the tank that relays on armor on a br that doesn't care about armor anymore (his main defence now is ricoschete just like T-44, in theory tank from exactly the same time) :V It's already quite easy to get his cannon barrel --> track --> flank.
I nearly forgot I even played War Thunder. Even with the benefits of being a partner and junking on arcade, the hundreds of games needed to plow through the tech tree for higher tier vehicles was brain deadening.
man i miss your arcade war thunder vidya im arcade pleb myself edit: as guy dont had idea about archery your channel piqued my curiosity in archery stuff
the joke in this is high tier vehicles aren't the most fun at the moment. So enjoy the game none-the-less. Eventually the current high tier will be appropriately balanced as they add new high tier vehicles that aren't. It's only the nature of a f2p and every expanding game. You cant expect top tier (experimental tier) to be perfect
You made a great point that's bugged me for years. All of their marketing shows off modern combat vehicles. People come in expecting that, and then either leave or are disappointed because they have to grind tens (if not hundreds) of hours just to get to what was shown in trailers.
Can only imagine how many people download the game expecting to jump right into a modern MBT, then look at their starting BT-5 or M2 Stuart and just delete the game.
Can we just give new players a bullet that can just kill all enemies on the map with one click? Hahah dude you need to unlock tanks to reach harder tanks and grow your skill. Do you not understand how much you would cry like a f word baby if suddenly all top tier games were flooded with new no skill players... man most people here are brain damaged
Yet it has more players than ever. Hypothetical "potential" Vs the game's playerbase has actually continued to grow, even if you disagree with it. ( Facts are facts, it's provable ) All I want to see is less selfish bitching and more people, especially CC's to debate and come together on what really matters. Koala and TEC made a great example of that tonight. With debates and humility displayed as a consequence of this video, there is a real chance for change in this game.
@@johnreiman7127 Peak players was during the corona virus and hit a whopping 80kish concurrent players, on this friday night its roughly 50k and on average I see between 40-19k. New players don't stick around and veterans leave the game at a alarming rate, queue times have been getting longer and longer and some game modes can't even get a match at certain hours. As I said, game could be one of the greatest, and its throwing it all away, and if change doesn't come it will die out, its just a matter of when.
I can’t see them ever listening, they are stubborn as old mules. What really irks me, is they release a premium which is good, keep its B.R decent for 6 months to a year, then destroy it by moving its B.R up to unplayable levels, then release a new premium to fill the gap they opened by destroying the effectiveness of the last premium. It’s Morally and should be legally wrong. Also the fact they ‘balance’ units by making them financially unviable to play (British tanks) is BS
On Xbox, some people I would team with on that caught them using gamer tags of players not in the game! We saw a friend up, and ask them to squad with us. They replied they were going to keep doing Rocket League for awhile - but thanks. Then we noticed their tag on the Red Team a few games later, we got back on chat with him and asked him why he didn't give us a holler...he was still in Rocket League. Checking his friends status verified that. Pretty shady.
the thought of putting vehicles behind folders brought tears to my eyes....thats honestly the most realistic way of shortening the grind ive ever heard of....i really hope gaijin listens
Another issue that folders would fix is this. Whenever you unlock a new vehicle it is most likely going to be worse in performance than the one that precedes it(because the new vehicle is stock) AND it goes against higher br enemies. So whenever you spend weeks unlocking the next tank you end up with a considerably worse gameplay experience until you once again spade the unlocked vehicle and the circle starts over. With folders the jump from unlock to unlock would be big enough to counterbalance the negative effect of having a stock vehicle. Just a quick thing you didn't really touch on :)
Or they they could just group tanks of the same type into one then only to research up-gradable components like those of M4's and M60's of USA and not to repeat the process over and over.
Or they could just remove the more necessary upgrades from each tank and make them stock. That would also fix that problem and be much more player friendly, but that wouldn't make them anymore money right this moment so it's not likely to happen.
I started war thunder at the start of the first lockdown and I finally got to top tier jets and ground for Britain after getting premium and the hunter fga.9 and I was disappointed. No because of the gameplay but the way they have "balanced" British vehicles like the phantom fgr.2 having aim 9 D's at 10.7 and still not having the correct radar and the challenger 2 having a giant weak spot above its gun. This is just compounded by how powerful germany is at top tier ground rb and russia (and recently us) are at air rb top tier. I would like gajin to reduce the grind and stop releasing vehicles until they are absolutely sure that the vehicles they have now are at lease somewhat accurate depending on how much information they have and are balanced enough to be in the game. If they sort those things out I think that the game will grow more and have a more healthy player base. But thats just my opinion coming from playing only British.
Britain top tier tanks are probably second worst after the Chinese and china only has 1 top tier tank. From jets only phantom i would say is decent. I have top tier USSR, germany, japan.
@@a_gloriouspotato1967 The fgr.2 isn't that its self but when compared to its competition like the mig 21 bis, the f4-e and the EJ it just isn't at their level. It is annoying because it could be if gajin had given it the proper pulse Doppler radar or better ir missiles but they didn't due to "balancing" reasons.
@@LEFTY073 Due to the same balancing reasons they released Lightning AFTER it was outdated and obsolete against its competition. You just can´t have really competitive minor nation vehicle, that would eliminate the insane amount of green you want people to spend on major nations. That is the mindset of Gaijin "not really" Entertainment. Its not really like they hate British/any other nation, its more like they don´t care about those.
the grind started losing me back in 1.27. i have reinstalled a time or 2 since then, but the grind just takes so much fun out of it that i struggle to consider reinstalling again.
Great video, and i'm happy you bring up points others don't consider, also the foldering perspective is a very interesting solution, hopefully Gaijin will come up with something in the future or maybe even allow the players to have a bigger hand in development, we could also do a lot more with a more advanced CDK, the community is full of passion.
I've stopped playing, indefinitely, uninstalled and everything, its a joke, in the 6 years I have played the game it went from fun grind, good earnings to grind grind grind. It feels like a chore and not a game to progress, Ive gone back to Il2 1946 because with the BAT mod it just makes a whole new game, and that whole new game (which I got on sale for £1) is more fun than anything I have ever played in WT. Thats part was not really relevant but thats what I play for air combat games. Warthunder is not the only game I have stopped playing, Rainbow 6 Siege I have also stopped playing and some of the issues are the same, the grind for example in Siege, unless you spend money (On a game that already costs a minimum of £20) you earn virtually nothing, And in 2020 I stopped because the game was no longer fun, it was just a long grind, I had played the game since 2016. Then Red Dead Redemption and GTA V whilst neither game I have stopped playing, I have the same issues, the grind is just too much and its not fun. There is a reason why I stick to playing games that are years old and its because those games dont have the same grind issues
Honestly, a game that revolves around grinding is no issue for me personally... Anyone who played Runescape, World of Warcraft or EVE would agree XD Grinding in itself is fine to have in a game... it just has to make sense. Being expected to grind for a hundred WWII era vehicles to progress into the modern warfare gameplay that Gaijin shows off in their advertisements makes no sense. It's not necessarily that the length of the grind as far as RP cost or earnings per battle needs reducing... we just need to put fewer vehicles in players' way, so that it's only those important historical icons standing between them and the modern stages of the game
@@HipsterEstonian Its the grind I'm comparing (Il2 is just what im playing instead of WT if that wasnt clear so nithing to complain about there) I dont mind a grind if its fun and rewarding but none of the games I mentioned provide a fun grind anymore and its either pay to get stuff faster or sink 100s or even 1000s of hours into a game to reach the end goal thats the issue I have (But I think its alot scummier on games that you already have to pay for to use that model)
@@ey7290 yes and that's what I ment. You cant expect a free to play game to not have annoying grind. The businessmodel wouldn't work without it. You are supposed to want to spend money to get further faster. With war thunder the issue is that they are also shooting themselves with it cause of the amount of content.
@@HipsterEstonian My point is its nothing new and is plaguing not only free to play games but also games made by developers like Ubisoft and R*, it just seems to be the direction is going
Always good to see people addressing the issues the game has and then providing a possible solution. BTW I was in that game you had at the very end where you couldn't reload in time. I'm the reason the 803 survived and was able to kill you and the reason you died in your c2.
im giving up on grinding... been playing on and off since 2013 ( The Old Guard), but now its comming to and end ...super tired off the grind and having to play against +1Br .
Im playing also from 2013. Unlocked everything i wanted and just playing for fun. I just wish gaijin would overdue maps, cause modern armor playing maps designed for ww2 tanks is trash
@@cactuslietuva I agree about the maps. I've played air since late 13/early14 and with the tech we have now... more complex and larger maps are needed. To get this to happen we need the community to be more unified instead of attacking gaidjin/warthunder with petty insults and basic solutions to complex problems, if that makes sense. I still play for fun these days but, there are improvements to be made. I just feel like the "victimized" playerbase covers up any legitimate complaints like you mention from every getting noticed unfortunately
If the community were united tat would work, but I bet if you organised something like that, less than 1% of the players would even have heard about it before the event was over.
@@kristianfagerstrom7011 Because even though I play this game 95% of the time I play video games these days. It's still more fun than others. ( subjective opinion, I know it's only mine )
as someone who only started last November and grinded German ground forces until I reached the Tiger II about 3 weeks ago, yes the grind is kinda tiring and I doubt everyone else has the available time in their day as me to progress as fast as I did wthout spending money.
@Zyony Estt See I can't say what nation you were playing but for myself playing the French tanks pre-Crusader II/M3A3 Stuart being added, it was effectively just playing the S.35/AMD.35 over and over again as nearly all the rank 1 and even the rank 2 French tanks have effectively all the same gun, you never really feel like you are progressing any, not helped by the best gun you've got(ignoring the two newer tanks in the tree) until the M4A1 is the AMD.35 with it's 25mm gun, one of your RESERVE vehicles. Meanwhile lines like the Germans actually feel like they progress at they go down the tree, From the Panzer 3 E to Panzer 3 F there is a noticeable upgrade in firepower from the 3F to the 3J1 there is another noticeable upgrade in firepower, and even comparing the other tanks in the line the Panzer 2 C with it's PZGR 40 ammo is fully capable as a tank, then moving to the Panzer 4 C you get a decent upgrade and access to early HEAT rounds, the 4 E get's an even better HEAT round. Now let's look at the French. They get the H.39 and the AMD.35 to start with, the AMD as mentioned is about the best gun they will have for a while, "upgrading" to the AMC.35 actually gives you a gun with less pen power, it's actually a tank over an armored car, but it's also far slower(about half the speed) with about the same level of protection. The H.39 upgrades into the S.35 and it's actually an upgrade you get a better gun, more armor, with about the same speed, but it's not really that noticeable of an upgrade because as mentioned it's gun is still worse than the AMD.35. You then get the M3A3 Stuart, and it's gun is ever so slightly better than the AMD.35 getting on average 5mm more pen in every bracket, not really a noticeable upgrade, armors nice but speed is lower, better than the S.35 though. You also get the Crusader II and it's gun is once again only slightly better than the AMD, this time really slight before ammo upgrades, and a little better with the ammo upgrades. That's ignoring the fact the R.35(SA38) is effectively just a slightly less armored H.39, upgrading into the D2, that is a much weaker S.35, and it upgrades into the B1 bis that really only has it's armor going for it. Against tanks of it's own BR, it's unlikely to reliably pen their armor, while it's own armor is only going to barely hold if it holds at all. To go back to the German v France bit I've got going here, the B1 Bis BR 2.3 has 60mm of frontal armor with a nice flat spot to shoot in front of the driver, the Panzer 3 J1 has 50mm of flat frontal armor, B1 has the advantage right? Well... If the fight is around 500m the B1 bis has JUST enough pen with it's 75mm hull gun to pen the Panzer 3 J1 with 55mm of pen, the J1 with it's PZGr 40/1 ammo has 90mm of pen, that's enough to likely punch into the sloped armor of the B1 bis. At closer ranges the B1 can pen the armor better at around likely 300m or so it's 47mm gun can likely do it, but the J1 also has better pen and is smaller, and faster. Even the normal Panzer 3 J has enough pen on it's gun to be a major threat to a B1 bis at 500m, while the B1 is still in just as much trouble as before, and that's just comparing it to things close to it's own BR. Next the French get the M4A3(105) that is just terrible without it's HEAT rounds, so you ether need to fail for hours or spend money to make the tank useful, and if you want the ARL-44 (ACL-1) you need to research the tank, the American's can just skip the piece of garbage. They also get after their M3A3 the M3A1 that finally puts their firepower on par with what the Germans have had since BR 2.3, at 3.7, and after the Crusader they get the first major upgrade in the AMX-13(FL11)(at least in proper tanks) BR 3.3 good gun, small size, good speed, it actually feels like an upgrade over what came before it, but the grind to get there is long, and VERY painful, and that's 1 good tank, given the AMX-13(FL11) is a lower BR than the M4A4 with a better gun and more speed, with about the same armor, the M4A4 might be an upgrade over the Stuart, but not really over the AMX. The ARL-44 (ACL-1) falls into similar problems as the B1 bis, it's tall, not terribly heavily armored and BR 3.7 it does at least have an okay gun. Given the ARL-44 (ACL-1) can meet Panzer 4 G/H/Js and all of those make quick work of it in most cases even through it's frontal armor. While the ARL stands a better chance against the German tanks than the B1 did, it's still very disheartening to know that your new best tank is still worse than what mostly everyone else has, while also being taller and slower to boot. I can't speak for the performance past the 3 main tanks I ended on because I gave up grinding at that point. It just wasn't worth it to me to keep playing when it always felt like I was a step behind even when I was supposed to be on par with the vehicles around me. Geeze this got long, sorry about that. TLDR: Some nations(example I used is the French as they are what I play the most) don't really feel like they progress as you move down the tree making the grind feel longer as your vehicles mostly stay the same or actually get worse(be that from less armor and speed with the same gun or just the BR match making while using a gun that was only okay a full 1.0 BR ago) as you progress.
To get a new vehicle, now spend 5x as long grinding as you did everything before it, as keep doing that until you get to top tier. THAT's why its so tiring. I have at least 6.7 in most of the nations, and I've been playing off and on since 2014. I don't even have a top tier vehicle yet
I only spent $40 for a year of premium on sale and I managed to get to the top tier of 3 different nations with it. What I found out was this game is so much fun if you utilize it in a way to meet people and squad up...and also, most importantly have fun. When I got to top tier I found it was an ever changing playground where you are the top dog until the next patch and you are the victim. I still play top-tier in sim, But, I've learned the fun is in the positive side of the community, in RB and Sim at least. ( We all want the game to be better in all modes, but it should be clear that the constant victimized bitching that overwhelms the community will never fix it.) But, hopefully debates and discussions like Koala had with Tec tonight will help align the community to fix the main issues in the game we love
@@johnreiman7127 kinda ironic that the bitching part of the community that relentlessly bombards the game with hate are still playing it. they don't really help anyone not even themselves. thankfully we have people with enough patience to reach out to the devs properly.
You also have to think of it from a business standpoint to be objective. Gaidjin isn't doing anything American business practices have proved to be successful. Not saying I agree with that, just offering some objective information
Thank for vocalizing a huge issue the community has with the game, this is personally why I haven’t committed to returning until they change the research trees of economy in general. I’m a profile rank 50 who took a 4 year break and now all my tech trees are interrupted by new vehicles they added that I couldn’t care about but now I have to grind out in order to play the end tier.
I played the game back in the Patch 1.3 to 1.4 days, when tanks had just been introduced. I stuck with air realistic battle mode though, because I just couldn't get the hang of tank battles. I guess my monitor wasn't good enough, because I basically only ever saw green and brown smudges and suddenly a white flash and I was dead. It really wasn't fun and the horrible grind on top of it, didn't make things better. Even in air battles, my biggest issue was that I kind of always felt haunted and hounded by the grind. The good players usually played each aircraft till they really had mastered it and had gotten great stats in it. I never did. I spaded a aircraft and then moved on to the next one, because playing a spaded one kind of felt like a waste of time. I would have a good battle in one and then be angry about the fact that if I would have had that great battle in a stock aircraft, I would have gotten a ton of research points. The grind made me crave research points and that kept me from really enjoying flying spaded planes and it hurt my stats. Now I'm playing World of Warships, where the grind is pretty tame in comparison. You can grind a whole line to tier 10 within maybe 100 to 200 battles, if you use Premium time and XP boosting flags and stuff like that. It feels much faster and less grueling than it did in WT and the difference between a stock ship and a spaded one isn't that big either.
War Gaming definitely have a much better system for their grind, helped by them actually giving you some free xp to play around with as well, letting you jump start new lines when ever you want. I right now with Warships could jump right into a nations T9 using just my free XP if I really wanted to. Though I tend to just skip up to T4/5 just so I don't seal club to much when I decide to start on a new line. Though War Gaming also seems to make a lot of their money from signals and premium vehicles second where it seems Gaijin makes most of their money from people converting xp with Premium vehicles still second. Can't say for sure though.
About the WWII era and Modern era being separate, World of Tanks Console is actually taking a step in that direction, where they are (In the future) adding a modern tech tree, but they're keeping both sides separate by keeping a "WWII" tech tree, and an "Advanced" tech tree, the console development team for both Xbox and PlayStation are separate from wargaming on PC so it is ideas of a different team, but they're at least recognizing the problems that could be afflicted with such occurrences in War Thunder.
I totally agree with the folder idea, it's "simple" yet very effective. I hope we get some more vehicles folded in a way to help the grind in WT, so players can reach the spot they want faster and enjoy the game they really want.
I thought I would never be able to wean myself off War Thunder. I went from having a year+ login streak to playing it once every couple weeks. I realized that my "fun" in War Thunder correlated with the money I spent. Once I stopped spending money, the grind became super obvious and I no longer had fun with the vehicles. For example with the Mig-21bis. It costs more money to spade the jet (not to mention grind it) than it does to buy the DCS module which has a million more features for the same aircraft.
You really spent money spading vehicles? I just love how people spents 60 eur to unlock it and the same amount to spade it. Its insane amount of cash for shitty 3D model for single vehicle.
@@cactuslietuva Once you get to top tier, you kind of have to. it will take you countless games to even get anywhere competitive (like my previous example - the mig 21). If I have disposable income, I could spend hours upon hours playing a vehicle and not having fun, or spend some cash. That was my justification previously, now I've found other games where I can experience these vehicles and not have the game be a moneypit.
@@KhanGirey I play from the beta. Have top tier germans, ussr, japan. Never spend GE for modifications. I agree for jets its annoying to grind out rockets, but when you have everything unlocked its just something to do at least and some challenge. I immediately loose interest in a vehicle when i spade it and go to another.
If you're looking to support sth that isnt exploiting players and focuses on having fun instead check out my game im working on. Trying to make it different to wot and wt
First of all great video (especially folder suggestions is nice). However I found Gaijin very lucky, because still it is the only one in the market. In case there will be another game which has similar content (with better structure) , Gaijin might loose 70% of its players today
Don't forget that while World of Tanks does run a secondary game mode where you can respawn, you are not locked to a single nation. You can spawn any crewed tier 8 tank you have, and said mode tends to get used as a quick grind mode for tier 8s who are tied of getting uptiered to fight tier 10s
I really think Gaijin shoud do like Daybreak on their game Planetside 2, they should do some free premium week-end every month to help the grind, nothing else have to change like this.
@@princessapplestrach6327 what? Why you want a double premium ? No. It will be a normal premium Guys that already have premium account will get 2 days of premium account given for each week-end passed, like this they don't lose premiums days.
I cannot express just how much I love the idea of foldering a lot of the vehicles. I have a few friends with a mild interest in the game, but cant see them ever getting past WWII just because of the grind, so have been playing alone at top tier. The folder idea would make things soooo much easier yet keep the content there.
Since the summer event i've wanted to set up a lineup for 9.0 germany to play with my leo c2, but first i would like to buy the expert qualification for some 9.0s (radkampf, leo 1a5, which i also need to buy and the c2a1).... ok, i don't play every single day (hell i even take a break of a week or 2) and i also bought the leo 2a6 with sl (i mained germany), including it's expert qualification, but it has more to do with being disheartened by the thought how much sl and grind i'll need to get that lineup working... and the worst part? I prefer top tier mostly over ww2 content nowadays, which isn't the most lucrative option for sl grind... so i either play a ton of top tier to get to that goal or instead play something else i don't want now. And i'm not even sure i would enjoy 9.0 battles... So yeah, i feel that grind problem.
i really liked the one hour long video a big counter to those "welcome to my video. war thunder is grindy. thank you for watching " videos that some other youtuber doas
The folders idea is really great. For example that Japanese D1Y/B6N/B7N line, before it was just 3 planes to go from the B7N, a half decent grinder for the Japanese plane tech tree (bomber spawn, decent mobility, 20mm cannons, 800kg bomb load) but now just to get to the B7N, a tier 3 (or 4 correct me if I'm wrong) you need to pass though 7 planes, 3 of them being the same planes and just different variants. That can just be foldered up and be done with but no Gaijin needs to force you to grind.
I agree. The grind is too long, and despite me only grinding one tree and playing over 300 hours, I'm only just at tier 4 tanks and tier 3 aircraft. That should not happen, although premium will make it faster.
@@Energy-Miner I’m just past 750hrs and I am barely researching the f-100 on the american tech tree and at the second t-32 heavy tank, but playing 7.7 with a glorified super Pershing is just sad especially with no parts
Besides the folder idea, I've also recently found myself a fan of the 'primary' and 'supporting' lines of progression. For example, making the M4 Sherman line, which heads up to the Abrams, the most expensive to research & grind, but making heavy tank lines a little cheaper, tank destroyer lines moderately cheaper, and light tank lines much cheaper. This means that players can progress quicker down a tech tree, but can't just rush all the way to top tier. It also means that the primary & secondary heavy & medium lines actually have a vehicle line up to support them sooner. For me, one of the worst feelings is unlocking something like the FV4202 or a Tiger I but not yet having any other tanks to support it. You're then left with the choice of playing your matches with only one vehicle, or sitting on that tank you've unlocked for the next month while you grind out a Panther and Jagdpanther.
The repair costs, man. As much as I want to fly out my swedish jets, the repair cost vs the performance of the planes just don't line up. Why the fuck is the j29D cost 20k to repair when the plane is outperformed by almost everything in its br. Its like gaijin doesn't want you to play them at all. I stopped grinding the swedish tech tree due to this and stuck to my A7D for the 6k repair cost. I earn more SL this way. With that said, it got so boring that I stopped playing seriously - which may not be a bad thing, but its getting boring.
I just stopped playing USA and Germany bc the grind was too much at rank 5 and switched to Sweden with a premium and premium time the grind is a lot smaller but man the planes have insane rep costs especially when I’m playing an alright vehicle for its br and compress into the ground it makes me mad to pay 10k sl. The sl costs are probably to make players not think of Sweden as a skip the grind tree thing.
Also don't forget that the now 7.0, and going to be 7.3 British lineups cost more than 10k sl for each tank. I don't have a problem if they want to up BR them, but for the love of god, lower the repair cost.
@@SpecterCat_ I am still in disbelief. I wanted my first jet to be SK60B. When Operation WINTER was running only J21-A3 was 8k to repair. Now all 3 of them are so expensive and why is that 2.7 Bomber so expensive too. I can't make any profit from playing those planes. Only time i earn something is when i win the match even then i am 1k in earnings.
If they hired him.... He would have to be like Mike and Oxy. I loved Oxy but now he is restricted in what he can say. All that to say, Don't hire Koala or Tec so they can remain objective and make a better game for us all
@@johnreiman7127 there will always be restrictions about leaking info, but if we're talking about the video's of oxy there are 0. Oxy has mentioned before in his videos that he will still be able to make the exact same content about the vehicle ratings. This video features problems of War Thunder with mostly good solutions for them, although only this would never be a reason to hire someone it COULD help with fixing the problems.
Definitely foldering makes so much sense. Group the Sherman 75s together the Sherman 76s together, have panthers in one and tiger/2 in another have all valentines in one have the t34s minus the big differences in one and all of a sudden we have a perfectly accessible really short grind to top tier while simultaneously having that grind become less of a path to get what you want but also a mastery thing. Make it less of a I have to research 100 vehicles to get the Abrams and more of a “I decided to research every American vehicle because I enjoyed it”
It's not so much that it's the "good stuff" though... it's the fact that for many thousands of players they couldn't give a toss about WWII content, but would LOVE to play War Thunder's modern MBT's... so why should they be faced with a HUNDRED vehicles and more than 500 hours of gameplay before getting to unlock any of it..? They're just not going to play...
@@theScottishKoala i fit into this as well. I love ww2 tanks like the tiger. But i also love the abrams. And over the years only one nation i play is top tier japan. Because of how few vehicles they have. 4-5 years playing i am still not top tier in germany or america. And im low mid tier for every other nation except sweden and china which i hardly play at all
@@thebibledoc2320 no, you don't understand. People like me have no interest in playing WW2 era tanks, and would like to skip them. But maybe this game is not for me
When I started playing in 2013 The research trees and the lines were just that. You could pick one "column-line" of planes just unlock that one. You didn't need to grind 5 or 6 vehicles before advancing to the next tier of vehicles. And there were no B.R ratings back then either. It was just based on tier level in the line you were unlocking/researching. So much better.
I say unlock everything and just have sl as the barrier to playing different tier stuff. Players can then populate the better earning tiers that can be changed periodically so everyone isn't bored to death with low br stuff.
I agree with this video's idea of folders. Nothing has ruined my day more than coming back expecting to grind through a tier probably only to find out six new vehicles have been added to the tree i was researching.
I love the idea of putting tanks in folders and moving towards homogenizing research costs across tiers. Reserve always feels to short, you don't even understand how to use your vehicle before its throwing twenty more at you, but once you get up around 6.0 and onwards you're in for ten or twenty games just trying to get the ability to fix a flat tire and put the fire out. The radical exponential experience requirement growth at higher tiers is just insane.
And for anyone who isn't aware, World of Tanks has effectively also subtracted the grind time because they sort of streamlined/simplified their tech tree, removed some unnecessary vehicles and put it into a collection category. World of Tanks tech tree is now basically, one main line in the lower tiers, and it branches into 3-5 lines that varies from classes to playstyles of two variety.
This is actually a brilliant idea Koala. The problem is how to get this suggestion to the actual developers of Gaijin so that they can seriously consider this. The problem is they don't listen to criticism or solutions and in the past even tried to censor criticism and complaints.
I gotta say the Folder Idea is the best I’ve seen to help the grind, it’s just the 1st idea of making a separate tree for modern tech I don’t wanna feel like I wasted over 1000 hours to get my first MBT.
About the folders: there is actually nothing that stops Gaijin from a) Putting vehicles of a higher rank in a lower folder, Allowing you to get higher ranked vehicles vhile grinding out a foolder startes in a lower rank. b) allowing each folder to be able to branch out in a "mini tree" to allow a folder to be grinded out non-liearly. c) Allowing a vehicle to occupy several positions in the tech tree. I.E in a lower rank folder, _and_ in the tree at the higher rank, allowing you to unlock it from either path. - So basically once you unlock the vechicle, it's unlocked in all the positions it occcupies.
I'm one of the Old Guard and remember never worrying about SL. I grinded through Germany first cus I always thought their tanks were cool. I basically got expert crew on anything I enjoyed because I wasnt hurting for SL. I was in the Leo's when they released the economy "update" and that took SO much fun out of the game. I'll hop into some things when I'm looking to have fun (Italy, mid tier Germany, and especially sim) but gaijin doesnt cater to just fun. They dont give much at all to sim players and we all play it because it's fun. You can't do tasks in sim and the repair costs for things may be doubled in sim and if you are researching something more than 1 tier away your RP is reduced by 60%. They force you to play the next tier, not exactly what you enjoy
I have to agree. As someone who recently quit WT due to the grind theme and the tech issues I spent almost 3 years of ocassional play sessions I only managed to get Germany to 5.7 (my main tank tree) the US plane tree I got stuck at around 4.7- 5.0. Other nations I got myself to around 3.0 (the ones that I played like USSR, Japan and Italy). I don't agree with making the grind easy because that takes the thrill, but the amount of monetary gains and losses you have at the end of a couple of hours of a game session without premium barely gives you enough to get an eight of a vehicle you are grinding. I don't want to return until there is a proper grind fix and of course the B.R Compression system gets a rework to make matches balanced and playable.
I have been playing War Thunder for about 3 or 4 years now, and have spent over $100 USD, and my highest BR is 6.3 in Germany. It does get annoying, and I love your ideas. Keep up the good work!
Absolutely hard agree. Where I’ve found my biggest issue with folders is the Sabres, particularly the German ones. There’s 3 back to back, out of order considering their BR and not all that different from eachother. Such an annoying grind to get to Starfighter.
The proposals in the second half of the video are great. I really hope This Video finds open ears at the developers side. The grind is the only reason why i stopped playing war thunder as my main game
Well Gaijin doesn't, because they at the end of the day do want money, and shortening the grind is not likely to make them any money, it could very well lose them money.
Another idea- There are 2 separate tech trees for planes, tanks and ships, those being vehicles up to just after ww2 props and early jets, then you would have vehicles after then, so cold war and onwards; I believe that this proposal would allow Gaijin to add in newer, more modern vehicles, while making the grind not ridiculously long, this way also allows players who want to play modern jets to play those planes and players who want to play props to play those planes, Everyone's happy!
i cant explain how smart is the folder mechanism, ive been playing this game since launch, and it just burns my soul to play 2 months for a tank just because i dont have money
My very personal preference of an idea would be to firstly, not require the "6 vehices in this tree" bit and make it more of a realistic expectation, and to only apply the progression line to vehicles that are historically significant for progression, for example, to play any vehicle that the sherman is directly related to irl design wise, should be branched or foldered, aka you start with the M3 Lee. And the progression takes you to the sherman line where you unlock in order, M4, M4A1 (75), M4A2 (75), M4A3 (76). And then, directly foldered in with the A1 75 would be the 76, and same for the A2 75, and then the A3 76 would branch into the jumbos, which would be foldered. And then, to get the M10, you would need the M4A2 (75), since thats the hull they used (though quite modified), and to get the M36 Jackson, you would need the M10. Sounds very complicated, and grindy, right? Well thats where we kick off the rub of this proposal. You start off the TD line with a M3 GMC, right? Well with this proposal, you could hop from M3 GMC to Hellcat to T95 Doom Turtle, to Stryker, cutting the TD line grind in half, although technically depending on how rank progression may change in the game, you could get the striker as your very first TD! Thats about how in depth I'm willing to get in here, but if anyones honestly interested I'm going to put an image of what I'm talking about in Koalas discord, (in time as I have to make the picture first)
Hey man. I loved the discussion tonight. I hope that the community of CC and followers can continue to have good conversations that provoke objective thinking about making the game better. I agree with you on so much, but I also see why it's not so easy to make happen. The debate tonight was such a good thing for WT's future. The more all CC's communities can gather new perspectives, the better we can be to demand things universally and make changes in the game. The conversations you both had tonight is what is needed. Agreements and Disagreements are needed and you both handled them in the best way. Love your channel and Tec's as well. Keep it up man! * this was posted after the ScottishKoala/TEC debate tonight. 2/18/2021.
I tried to find a way to PM you, but it is unavailable on your discord and youtube channel. But I maybe one day I can be your "friend" on discord, though it seems I cant even send you a request. I think there is a lot of productive conversations to have, and I love the goals you are working toward. Hit me up sometime man.
i like how Armored Warfare, a cold war-Now era tank game with WT damage model stacked onto WoT style hit points (cant really one shot people, but you sure as hell can damage shit pretty easily) And its more PvE focused iv noticed. hell, its my sisters fav game out of the 3 tanks games. AW's grind is the most comfortable i have ever felt.
3 года назад
As a not very good casual from time to time player of warthunder i do absolutly agree with your suggestion.
The folder idea is a great one and I support it. Granted, I still grind out each vehicle regardless, but other people would definitely benefit from this.
Another grind problem (though smaller) is that if you want to play Ground RB in its full combined arms form you either need to accept a much slower air grind, or play Air RB even if you don't want to. Perhaps not horrible for aircraft but the big problem is that helicopters also get reduced RP in Ground RB and unlike air helicopter battles is not a realistic way to speed up the grind (unless you are a masochist).
ScottishKoala, I've seen several of your videos and I enjoy them. About this theme, perhaps they need a little "beyond the current meta" work. For example, spliiting by Eras. Note that some tanks - like T34-85 - would span several eras, others just one. So you could research each era independently, and start at the era you want - though you could for example reserve top tier until you have at least another era finished. It'd also allow for less chaotic / weird matchmaking at the edges of transition. But one issue I'd like to see addressed: the lack of content on which to use the vehicles we have. Gaijin needs to make a proper game, with missions other than cap A, AB or ABC. In bombers - defend bomber against interception, tree-top attacks vs AA. On ground - defend or attack an area, fighting withdrawal. Mixed ground and air - where you join an air battle, but are fighting over a ground battle. Also more continuous and chained missions, so only the survivors from say 4 matches go to the next, with increased reward. Whatever, as long as its not damn cap A, B and C...
another issue with the grind is when I played War Thunder regularly people really want to double down on 1 nation since getting up in the teir list is not easy, and the 2 friends I played with were really staunch in playing the nations they wanted to play, one Russian the other German, The result was me having 2 grind twice as much without them to keep up, when the speed of progression is so slow falling behind is a real pain in the ass and it detracts from just enjoying the game for what it is, and it's great
they could split the tech tree, but I think there's enough nations now to just shorten the grind, and they could easily make it less painful by adding freebies to unlock between tanks like camos and add ons, add cold war starter packs at a more affordable price etc.
1. Folder idea is perfect. 2. There's another elephant in the room. The F-4 Phantom II, the top of the American tree, is at best a Vietnam era aircraft that managed to hang around until relatively recently in a few countries. It was gone from U.S. service by the mid-90s and then was primarily a EW specialist (the Wild Weasel). The F-14 Tomcat entered U.S. service in 1970. The F-15 Eagle entered U.S. service 1972. The F-16 Fighting Falcon in 1974. It seems incongruent to see late 50s/early 1960s aircraft flying air cap over what are 1990s and 2000s tanks and helicopters. 3. Then there is the bomber problem...or the lack of bombers problem. Ok, I get it, I won't be see a F-117 or B-2 in game because how would you simulate the effects of stealth at the short engagement distances in game. I'm not even asking for the B-36, B-52, or B-1...my assumption is that once you call those in with their massive bomb loads that the battlefield below them would littered with blown up vehicles in short order unless they were shot down very quickly. But the F-111 Aardvark? Why isn't it there? Tactical bombers other aircraft like the A-10 Thunderbolt II should be in the game that aren't, frankly.
Another idea for there to be enough low-tier players is to make the mbt tech trees only available to be played once the player reaches a set BR. Basically a player would reach 4.0 and would then be allowed to play the mbt tech tree, only skipping the 4.3-5.7 BR. Which often is the most annoying BR to grind through. But if they want. This would allow players to experience WW2 gameplay AND MBT tanks in a shorter amount of time
As a Wargaming CC, I love this video. I specifically gave up on warthunder because of the grind. I played for planes specifically as WoT was my ground vehicle fix, but the only I put into to it is in the thousands at this point and once the competitive scene fell off a cliff I feel like my time has come. You mentioned that wargaming listens to its player base and they do to a certain degree but their biggest issues are still arty and lopsided teams where the games end in 4 minutes or less. Most top tiers take at least a minute to get to the battle. 1/4 of the game is driving to the fight and watching your team die all around you. It isn't as fun as it used to be. As for the devs they listen with one ear closed and refuse to directly answer questions we had for years. Like arty and stun, or crew skills. It took almost 6 years to get a weird tutorial that doesn't really teach you anything. WG now spends most of their time trying to get you into top tiers and selling a new broken premium tank every few weeks. It's old and stale and the players are kind of tired of it. But the gripe is no where near as bad as war thunder. I would absolutely love to talk the aspects of both games to see if we could make the games we love better for everyone while also keeping these businesses thriving. @thescottishkoala
its absolutely insane that I can grind myself to top tier in one category in each of WG's "World of" games in less time than getting top tier vehicle in WT's one category.
I think another issue is that it's a really dense gameplay experience that has three separate vehicle control schemes with three major different gameplay styles to learn. I picked it up after a year and it took a week to get used to the controls for just Naval warfare.
This is truly an amazing idea that gaijin really need to work on. I’ve also been playing this game for 8 years and I know from completing almost everything that this will definitely help out the people new to the game. It isn’t fare for the new players to grind 50 plus vehicles when the veterans of the game only had to grind 10 and continue on from update to update.
I believe one fix to the grind issue (which i feel gaijin is moving towards) is to move more of their monetary gains to a leveling system outside of B.R, making a form of battle pass which gives more rewards to people that pay for them. If they massively cut down the grind and then promote a new battle pass type of system full of rewards people consider worth the money they would likely see a lower percentage of the player base spending money (because it isn't required to grind) but would see a significant increase in the total number of players. this system could also work towards making the game more competitive at higher levels since it would enable people to play against higher ranked players at any B.R since it is separate from the B.R system. I don't think such a system would be hard to pitch to gaijin either, you can easily make special tank variants available through a battle pass which would greatly encourage people to still spend money, but at the same time because it is a pass with multiple rewards it won't feel so bad when some rewards are nerfed. you get a maus and have some fun when a B.R change makes the maus unplayable, but oh hey now you get a t-34-100. you throw in some cool camo and cool/weird and even downright meme worthy tanks/planes and people would feel like its justified to spend the money since you get a more diversified reward and not one thing that might be unplayable next update.
Thank you for addressing this again. The grind is what has driven me away form the game. It has taken me 2 years and 2000 hours to finally reach the m1a1 abrams and the be frank. It broke me. I don't think I will ever be able to find fun in the game again because all I see is the grind. I hop into one vehicle match get killed early am reminded how this is costiing me silver lions and that I wont be able to minimize the grind time now and immediatly log off. They really need to slash the grind in the game by halve for me to even really consider joining again. It really makes me sad as Warthunder is a truly great game at its core. I still remember the THATS SO AWESOME FEELING I got when I would dogfight enemy spitfires in a bf109 while underneath me tanks brawled in the streets but I cant find that enjoyment any more due to the obscene grind. In WoWs the grind is always secondary and thats how it should be. I play fun ships and before I know it the next fun ship in the tech tree is ready and waiting for me. Thank you for using you platform to preach about this again. Hopefully the snail will react to this before its to late.
I thought that a good way to separate the problem of ww2 and top tier mbts would be to use the same idea that helicopters did, that we could separate the nations into separate trees, with say the t62 and t55 1st gen mbts being in the end line for the ww2 tech tree, and only after getting a rank 5 vehicle does the post war mbt line open for research, meaning that players don't get a lineup with just 1 vehicle in it, whilst also separating or at least alleviating the problem of tigers and such seeing atgms and heat fs. Maybe it cam work in a way where once you get enough vehicles in the current way gaijin's got it set up in rank 5 to unlock rank 6, then the new mbt tech tree will open up with say 2-3 vehicles already unlocked, a sort of reserve vehicles at maybe 8.0+ with repair costs but no crew train costs.
I picked up War Thunder for the WWII vehicles, and was looking forward to seeing more and more unique pieces added to each tech tree. But so many decisions make no sense! The M8 Greyhound armored car is a premium for the US, but china gets it as a reserve. The Sd.Kfz 251 with the 37mm and 3 of the 4 puma variants are premiums for some reason. the M14/47 or whatever that italian light is at rank ii is a premium even though it should be a tech tree vehicle. And dont get me started on everyone getting P47s and Shermans!
I remember when it first came out, I hopped into the German aviation tech tree and got to battle rating 5.0 in about a week or so, I felt that the progression via the free to play option wasn't that bad at all back then...but now, just unlocking a new tank and grinding out the lions to afford said tank at a low battle rating takes way too long and it personally discourages me to put in the time to grind out the tech tree which is a shame because i really want the Chieftain MBT's and T-54's
Gaijin greedy,
Gaijin bad,
Y u maken me so sad?
Good one😂
I'm going to use that more often
Worse than the grind is having so few vehicles going to your main tech tree in a full year that you have nothing to do
@@ommsterlitz1805 yeah
truuuuuuuuuuuuue
You know its a problem when even the tldr video is 18 minutes long
What’s tldr mean?
@@cameronmoss2933 To long didn't read
@@qwertyasdf798 thx
Don’t forget the br balancing is also a problem.
i can't believe you don't like getting killed by a swedish rocket car while you're in a tiger smh
True. Is-3 should fulfill the same role as Tiger II(H) does. But instead it is constantly slapped by ATGM, HEAT-FS and APFSDS with over 400 mm pen. Why put the tank that relays on armor on a br that doesn't care about armor anymore (his main defence now is ricoschete just like T-44, in theory tank from exactly the same time) :V It's already quite easy to get his cannon barrel --> track --> flank.
What!?!? Are you telling me you don’t enjoy getting your depleted uranium turret penned by a 2A6?
Actually the game is balanced, that's why you can shoot a Tiger in a kill spot at point blank range and get a non-pen
@@F-18Super no I’m not taking about that.
War Thunder, Great idea, great potential horrible execution.
may be awesome for masochists
Ash can you post some dcs by a chance
So true
your forgot the last comma.
You forgot to add the trademark logo, i won't have you slandering their motto like that.
I nearly forgot I even played War Thunder. Even with the benefits of being a partner and junking on arcade, the hundreds of games needed to plow through the tech tree for higher tier vehicles was brain deadening.
Loved your videos, it's sad that you're gone. But happiness comes first.
man i miss your arcade war thunder vidya
im arcade pleb myself
edit: as guy dont had idea about archery your channel piqued my curiosity in archery stuff
@@ajikanExe I was almost tempted to go back to see how the game was. The grind scared me. Also tired of the RB elitism.
@@NUSensei its still fun, especially in arcade. also the grind on some trees isnt too bad, like britain, but it still takes some time.
the joke in this is high tier vehicles aren't the most fun at the moment. So enjoy the game none-the-less. Eventually the current high tier will be appropriately balanced as they add new high tier vehicles that aren't. It's only the nature of a f2p and every expanding game. You cant expect top tier (experimental tier) to be perfect
You made a great point that's bugged me for years. All of their marketing shows off modern combat vehicles. People come in expecting that, and then either leave or are disappointed because they have to grind tens (if not hundreds) of hours just to get to what was shown in trailers.
Can only imagine how many people download the game expecting to jump right into a modern MBT, then look at their starting BT-5 or M2 Stuart and just delete the game.
No they have to gring dundreds or thousants of hours to that modern tank they want
@@theclockmaker633 If free to play, yes. Thousands of hours. I know from experience.
Tbh, it didn't bother me as I was loving WW2 tanks due to WoT but I can understand how it would really put some people off.
Can we just give new players a bullet that can just kill all enemies on the map with one click? Hahah dude you need to unlock tanks to reach harder tanks and grow your skill. Do you not understand how much you would cry like a f word baby if suddenly all top tier games were flooded with new no skill players... man most people here are brain damaged
Gaijin = Old School Russian doctrine: "Not one step back!"
In this case more like "Not one step forward"...
Ironic, considering how greedily capitalist they are.
"Ten steps back, one step forward!"
You mean the inverse?
Order 227 #2 Gaijin Boogaloo.
Here we go, the 1,203,860th video on the grind, when will it end? This game could be one of the greatest, but its just rotting away its potential.
Yet it has more players than ever. Hypothetical "potential" Vs the game's playerbase has actually continued to grow, even if you disagree with it. ( Facts are facts, it's provable ) All I want to see is less selfish bitching and more people, especially CC's to debate and come together on what really matters. Koala and TEC made a great example of that tonight. With debates and humility displayed as a consequence of this video, there is a real chance for change in this game.
@@johnreiman7127 Peak players was during the corona virus and hit a whopping 80kish concurrent players, on this friday night its roughly 50k and on average I see between 40-19k. New players don't stick around and veterans leave the game at a alarming rate, queue times have been getting longer and longer and some game modes can't even get a match at certain hours. As I said, game could be one of the greatest, and its throwing it all away, and if change doesn't come it will die out, its just a matter of when.
@@johnreiman7127 K buddy. Someone playing for a day and then deleting the game isn't growth. It's just one more ghost account.
@Dragon Shippuden yeah. It’s not hard to look up
I can’t see them ever listening, they are stubborn as old mules. What really irks me, is they release a premium which is good, keep its B.R decent for 6 months to a year, then destroy it by moving its B.R up to unplayable levels, then release a new premium to fill the gap they opened by destroying the effectiveness of the last premium. It’s Morally and should be legally wrong. Also the fact they ‘balance’ units by making them financially unviable to play (British tanks) is BS
Just started the British tech how bad was the balance as iv not been on for over a week
On Xbox, some people I would team with on that caught them using gamer tags of players not in the game! We saw a friend up, and ask them to squad with us. They replied they were going to keep doing Rocket League for awhile - but thanks. Then we noticed their tag on the Red Team a few games later, we got back on chat with him and asked him why he didn't give us a holler...he was still in Rocket League. Checking his friends status verified that. Pretty shady.
I agree gijan never listens or if they do the add a fraction of what anybody wants
@@dylanmason2373 15,000 repair cost moment
Just like the Harrier G1
Normal people: Didn't
Koala: *DID-NEI*
Edit: Thanks for the love, Koala!
bruh he unloved my comment
@@mintsamich that’s an Oof 100 if I’ve ever seen one
@@mintsamich Editing comments removes the heart
the thought of putting vehicles behind folders brought tears to my eyes....thats honestly the most realistic way of shortening the grind ive ever heard of....i really hope gaijin listens
Another issue that folders would fix is this. Whenever you unlock a new vehicle it is most likely going to be worse in performance than the one that precedes it(because the new vehicle is stock) AND it goes against higher br enemies. So whenever you spend weeks unlocking the next tank you end up with a considerably worse gameplay experience until you once again spade the unlocked vehicle and the circle starts over.
With folders the jump from unlock to unlock would be big enough to counterbalance the negative effect of having a stock vehicle.
Just a quick thing you didn't really touch on :)
Or they they could just group tanks of the same type into one then only to research up-gradable components like those of M4's and M60's of USA and not to repeat the process over and over.
Or they could just remove the more necessary upgrades from each tank and make them stock. That would also fix that problem and be much more player friendly, but that wouldn't make them anymore money right this moment so it's not likely to happen.
I started war thunder at the start of the first lockdown and I finally got to top tier jets and ground for Britain after getting premium and the hunter fga.9 and I was disappointed. No because of the gameplay but the way they have "balanced" British vehicles like the phantom fgr.2 having aim 9 D's at 10.7 and still not having the correct radar and the challenger 2 having a giant weak spot above its gun. This is just compounded by how powerful germany is at top tier ground rb and russia (and recently us) are at air rb top tier. I would like gajin to reduce the grind and stop releasing vehicles until they are absolutely sure that the vehicles they have now are at lease somewhat accurate depending on how much information they have and are balanced enough to be in the game.
If they sort those things out I think that the game will grow more and have a more healthy player base. But thats just my opinion coming from playing only British.
Britain top tier tanks are probably second worst after the Chinese and china only has 1 top tier tank. From jets only phantom i would say is decent. I have top tier USSR, germany, japan.
British Phantom is not that bad lol
@@a_gloriouspotato1967 The fgr.2 isn't that its self but when compared to its competition like the mig 21 bis, the f4-e and the EJ it just isn't at their level. It is annoying because it could be if gajin had given it the proper pulse Doppler radar or better ir missiles but they didn't due to "balancing" reasons.
@@LEFTY073 Due to the same balancing reasons they released Lightning AFTER it was outdated and obsolete against its competition. You just can´t have really competitive minor nation vehicle, that would eliminate the insane amount of green you want people to spend on major nations. That is the mindset of Gaijin "not really" Entertainment. Its not really like they hate British/any other nation, its more like they don´t care about those.
@@cactuslietuva and i’m just now hitting tier 6. god damnit.
Love the fact that the tldr version is still 20 minutes long. It just shows how deep rooted this problem is
the grind started losing me back in 1.27. i have reinstalled a time or 2 since then, but the grind just takes so much fun out of it that i struggle to consider reinstalling again.
0:32 "but there is just one problem" - gaijiggles
Great video, and i'm happy you bring up points others don't consider, also the foldering perspective is a very interesting solution, hopefully Gaijin will come up with something in the future or maybe even allow the players to have a bigger hand in development, we could also do a lot more with a more advanced CDK, the community is full of passion.
Gaijin after watching this be like:
Interesting, anyway here's a new broken premium tank for you
Anyway wheres my Armored recovery vehicle april fools deathmatch?
Kv1C , K1B....op shits and u get them in ur 4.0 games
I've stopped playing, indefinitely, uninstalled and everything, its a joke, in the 6 years I have played the game it went from fun grind, good earnings to grind grind grind. It feels like a chore and not a game to progress, Ive gone back to Il2 1946 because with the BAT mod it just makes a whole new game, and that whole new game (which I got on sale for £1) is more fun than anything I have ever played in WT. Thats part was not really relevant but thats what I play for air combat games. Warthunder is not the only game I have stopped playing, Rainbow 6 Siege I have also stopped playing and some of the issues are the same, the grind for example in Siege, unless you spend money (On a game that already costs a minimum of £20) you earn virtually nothing, And in 2020 I stopped because the game was no longer fun, it was just a long grind, I had played the game since 2016. Then Red Dead Redemption and GTA V whilst neither game I have stopped playing, I have the same issues, the grind is just too much and its not fun. There is a reason why I stick to playing games that are years old and its because those games dont have the same grind issues
Honestly, a game that revolves around grinding is no issue for me personally... Anyone who played Runescape, World of Warcraft or EVE would agree XD
Grinding in itself is fine to have in a game... it just has to make sense. Being expected to grind for a hundred WWII era vehicles to progress into the modern warfare gameplay that Gaijin shows off in their advertisements makes no sense. It's not necessarily that the length of the grind as far as RP cost or earnings per battle needs reducing... we just need to put fewer vehicles in players' way, so that it's only those important historical icons standing between them and the modern stages of the game
Cant really compare GTA, red dead, siege or IL2 to War thunder. Completely different ways to finance game development.
@@HipsterEstonian Its the grind I'm comparing (Il2 is just what im playing instead of WT if that wasnt clear so nithing to complain about there) I dont mind a grind if its fun and rewarding but none of the games I mentioned provide a fun grind anymore and its either pay to get stuff faster or sink 100s or even 1000s of hours into a game to reach the end goal thats the issue I have (But I think its alot scummier on games that you already have to pay for to use that model)
@@ey7290 yes and that's what I ment. You cant expect a free to play game to not have annoying grind. The businessmodel wouldn't work without it. You are supposed to want to spend money to get further faster. With war thunder the issue is that they are also shooting themselves with it cause of the amount of content.
@@HipsterEstonian My point is its nothing new and is plaguing not only free to play games but also games made by developers like Ubisoft and R*, it just seems to be the direction is going
Always good to see people addressing the issues the game has and then providing a possible solution. BTW I was in that game you had at the very end where you couldn't reload in time. I'm the reason the 803 survived and was able to kill you and the reason you died in your c2.
im giving up on grinding... been playing on and off since 2013 ( The Old Guard), but now its comming to and end ...super tired off the grind and having to play against +1Br .
Im playing also from 2013. Unlocked everything i wanted and just playing for fun. I just wish gaijin would overdue maps, cause modern armor playing maps designed for ww2 tanks is trash
@@cactuslietuva designed for ww2 medium tanks stomping*
Play sim then. Grinding is just a nice addition to flying in Sim
@@cactuslietuva I agree about the maps. I've played air since late 13/early14 and with the tech we have now... more complex and larger maps are needed. To get this to happen we need the community to be more unified instead of attacking gaidjin/warthunder with petty insults and basic solutions to complex problems, if that makes sense. I still play for fun these days but, there are improvements to be made. I just feel like the "victimized" playerbase covers up any legitimate complaints like you mention from every getting noticed unfortunately
We should take a week where everyone doesnt play war thunder. Then they'll see how much they need the community
If the community were united tat would work, but I bet if you organised something like that, less than 1% of the players would even have heard about it before the event was over.
I was just thinking that.
@@kristianfagerstrom7011 Because even though I play this game 95% of the time I play video games these days. It's still more fun than others. ( subjective opinion, I know it's only mine )
@@johnreiman7127 Um.. why are you writing this as a reply to me?
I relate to trying to quit I try every few months and always come back to it
as someone who only started last November and grinded German ground forces until I reached the Tiger II about 3 weeks ago, yes the grind is kinda tiring and I doubt everyone else has the available time in their day as me to progress as fast as I did wthout spending money.
@Zyony Estt See I can't say what nation you were playing but for myself playing the French tanks pre-Crusader II/M3A3 Stuart being added, it was effectively just playing the S.35/AMD.35 over and over again as nearly all the rank 1 and even the rank 2 French tanks have effectively all the same gun, you never really feel like you are progressing any, not helped by the best gun you've got(ignoring the two newer tanks in the tree) until the M4A1 is the AMD.35 with it's 25mm gun, one of your RESERVE vehicles.
Meanwhile lines like the Germans actually feel like they progress at they go down the tree, From the Panzer 3 E to Panzer 3 F there is a noticeable upgrade in firepower from the 3F to the 3J1 there is another noticeable upgrade in firepower, and even comparing the other tanks in the line the Panzer 2 C with it's PZGR 40 ammo is fully capable as a tank, then moving to the Panzer 4 C you get a decent upgrade and access to early HEAT rounds, the 4 E get's an even better HEAT round.
Now let's look at the French. They get the H.39 and the AMD.35 to start with, the AMD as mentioned is about the best gun they will have for a while, "upgrading" to the AMC.35 actually gives you a gun with less pen power, it's actually a tank over an armored car, but it's also far slower(about half the speed) with about the same level of protection. The H.39 upgrades into the S.35 and it's actually an upgrade you get a better gun, more armor, with about the same speed, but it's not really that noticeable of an upgrade because as mentioned it's gun is still worse than the AMD.35. You then get the M3A3 Stuart, and it's gun is ever so slightly better than the AMD.35 getting on average 5mm more pen in every bracket, not really a noticeable upgrade, armors nice but speed is lower, better than the S.35 though. You also get the Crusader II and it's gun is once again only slightly better than the AMD, this time really slight before ammo upgrades, and a little better with the ammo upgrades.
That's ignoring the fact the R.35(SA38) is effectively just a slightly less armored H.39, upgrading into the D2, that is a much weaker S.35, and it upgrades into the B1 bis that really only has it's armor going for it. Against tanks of it's own BR, it's unlikely to reliably pen their armor, while it's own armor is only going to barely hold if it holds at all. To go back to the German v France bit I've got going here, the B1 Bis BR 2.3 has 60mm of frontal armor with a nice flat spot to shoot in front of the driver, the Panzer 3 J1 has 50mm of flat frontal armor, B1 has the advantage right? Well... If the fight is around 500m the B1 bis has JUST enough pen with it's 75mm hull gun to pen the Panzer 3 J1 with 55mm of pen, the J1 with it's PZGr 40/1 ammo has 90mm of pen, that's enough to likely punch into the sloped armor of the B1 bis. At closer ranges the B1 can pen the armor better at around likely 300m or so it's 47mm gun can likely do it, but the J1 also has better pen and is smaller, and faster. Even the normal Panzer 3 J has enough pen on it's gun to be a major threat to a B1 bis at 500m, while the B1 is still in just as much trouble as before, and that's just comparing it to things close to it's own BR.
Next the French get the M4A3(105) that is just terrible without it's HEAT rounds, so you ether need to fail for hours or spend money to make the tank useful, and if you want the ARL-44 (ACL-1) you need to research the tank, the American's can just skip the piece of garbage. They also get after their M3A3 the M3A1 that finally puts their firepower on par with what the Germans have had since BR 2.3, at 3.7, and after the Crusader they get the first major upgrade in the AMX-13(FL11)(at least in proper tanks) BR 3.3 good gun, small size, good speed, it actually feels like an upgrade over what came before it, but the grind to get there is long, and VERY painful, and that's 1 good tank, given the AMX-13(FL11) is a lower BR than the M4A4 with a better gun and more speed, with about the same armor, the M4A4 might be an upgrade over the Stuart, but not really over the AMX. The ARL-44 (ACL-1) falls into similar problems as the B1 bis, it's tall, not terribly heavily armored and BR 3.7 it does at least have an okay gun. Given the ARL-44 (ACL-1) can meet Panzer 4 G/H/Js and all of those make quick work of it in most cases even through it's frontal armor. While the ARL stands a better chance against the German tanks than the B1 did, it's still very disheartening to know that your new best tank is still worse than what mostly everyone else has, while also being taller and slower to boot. I can't speak for the performance past the 3 main tanks I ended on because I gave up grinding at that point. It just wasn't worth it to me to keep playing when it always felt like I was a step behind even when I was supposed to be on par with the vehicles around me.
Geeze this got long, sorry about that. TLDR: Some nations(example I used is the French as they are what I play the most) don't really feel like they progress as you move down the tree making the grind feel longer as your vehicles mostly stay the same or actually get worse(be that from less armor and speed with the same gun or just the BR match making while using a gun that was only okay a full 1.0 BR ago) as you progress.
To get a new vehicle, now spend 5x as long grinding as you did everything before it, as keep doing that until you get to top tier. THAT's why its so tiring. I have at least 6.7 in most of the nations, and I've been playing off and on since 2014. I don't even have a top tier vehicle yet
I only spent $40 for a year of premium on sale and I managed to get to the top tier of 3 different nations with it. What I found out was this game is so much fun if you utilize it in a way to meet people and squad up...and also, most importantly have fun. When I got to top tier I found it was an ever changing playground where you are the top dog until the next patch and you are the victim. I still play top-tier in sim, But, I've learned the fun is in the positive side of the community, in RB and Sim at least. ( We all want the game to be better in all modes, but it should be clear that the constant victimized bitching that overwhelms the community will never fix it.) But, hopefully debates and discussions like Koala had with Tec tonight will help align the community to fix the main issues in the game we love
@@johnreiman7127 kinda ironic that the bitching part of the community that relentlessly bombards the game with hate are still playing it. they don't really help anyone not even themselves. thankfully we have people with enough patience to reach out to the devs properly.
@@johnreiman7127 of course the game is fun with friends. i don't have any of those.
I love your videos dude!!!
your solution really looks good. it's a scary easy solution.
You also have to think of it from a business standpoint to be objective. Gaidjin isn't doing anything American business practices have proved to be successful. Not saying I agree with that, just offering some objective information
Thank for vocalizing a huge issue the community has with the game, this is personally why I haven’t committed to returning until they change the research trees of economy in general. I’m a profile rank 50 who took a 4 year break and now all my tech trees are interrupted by new vehicles they added that I couldn’t care about but now I have to grind out in order to play the end tier.
I played the game back in the Patch 1.3 to 1.4 days, when tanks had just been introduced. I stuck with air realistic battle mode though, because I just couldn't get the hang of tank battles. I guess my monitor wasn't good enough, because I basically only ever saw green and brown smudges and suddenly a white flash and I was dead.
It really wasn't fun and the horrible grind on top of it, didn't make things better.
Even in air battles, my biggest issue was that I kind of always felt haunted and hounded by the grind. The good players usually played each aircraft till they really had mastered it and had gotten great stats in it. I never did. I spaded a aircraft and then moved on to the next one, because playing a spaded one kind of felt like a waste of time. I would have a good battle in one and then be angry about the fact that if I would have had that great battle in a stock aircraft, I would have gotten a ton of research points.
The grind made me crave research points and that kept me from really enjoying flying spaded planes and it hurt my stats.
Now I'm playing World of Warships, where the grind is pretty tame in comparison.
You can grind a whole line to tier 10 within maybe 100 to 200 battles, if you use Premium time and XP boosting flags and stuff like that. It feels much faster and less grueling than it did in WT and the difference between a stock ship and a spaded one isn't that big either.
I just went back to WOWS too, after getting frustrated with the naval forces gameplay. It's been a nice change of pace.
War Gaming definitely have a much better system for their grind, helped by them actually giving you some free xp to play around with as well, letting you jump start new lines when ever you want. I right now with Warships could jump right into a nations T9 using just my free XP if I really wanted to. Though I tend to just skip up to T4/5 just so I don't seal club to much when I decide to start on a new line.
Though War Gaming also seems to make a lot of their money from signals and premium vehicles second where it seems Gaijin makes most of their money from people converting xp with Premium vehicles still second. Can't say for sure though.
About the WWII era and Modern era being separate, World of Tanks Console is actually taking a step in that direction, where they are (In the future) adding a modern tech tree, but they're keeping both sides separate by keeping a "WWII" tech tree, and an "Advanced" tech tree, the console development team for both Xbox and PlayStation are separate from wargaming on PC so it is ideas of a different team, but they're at least recognizing the problems that could be afflicted with such occurrences in War Thunder.
I totally agree with the folder idea, it's "simple" yet very effective. I hope we get some more vehicles folded in a way to help the grind in WT, so players can reach the spot they want faster and enjoy the game they really want.
Love your videos! Actually referenced your original grind problem video for an essay assignment for college.
and here we are... gajob unfolding t54 47 to prolonge the grind
gotta say I love your solutions to the grind problem! great video!
I thought I would never be able to wean myself off War Thunder. I went from having a year+ login streak to playing it once every couple weeks. I realized that my "fun" in War Thunder correlated with the money I spent. Once I stopped spending money, the grind became super obvious and I no longer had fun with the vehicles. For example with the Mig-21bis. It costs more money to spade the jet (not to mention grind it) than it does to buy the DCS module which has a million more features for the same aircraft.
You really spent money spading vehicles? I just love how people spents 60 eur to unlock it and the same amount to spade it. Its insane amount of cash for shitty 3D model for single vehicle.
@@cactuslietuva Once you get to top tier, you kind of have to. it will take you countless games to even get anywhere competitive (like my previous example - the mig 21). If I have disposable income, I could spend hours upon hours playing a vehicle and not having fun, or spend some cash. That was my justification previously, now I've found other games where I can experience these vehicles and not have the game be a moneypit.
@@KhanGirey I play from the beta. Have top tier germans, ussr, japan. Never spend GE for modifications. I agree for jets its annoying to grind out rockets, but when you have everything unlocked its just something to do at least and some challenge. I immediately loose interest in a vehicle when i spade it and go to another.
If you're looking to support sth that isnt exploiting players and focuses on having fun instead check out my game im working on. Trying to make it different to wot and wt
First of all great video (especially folder suggestions is nice). However I found Gaijin very lucky, because still it is the only one in the market. In case there will be another game which has similar content (with better structure) , Gaijin might loose 70% of its players today
Don't forget that while World of Tanks does run a secondary game mode where you can respawn, you are not locked to a single nation. You can spawn any crewed tier 8 tank you have, and said mode tends to get used as a quick grind mode for tier 8s who are tied of getting uptiered to fight tier 10s
Remember when you used to unlock all the vehicles in a tier just by unlocking that tier?
Me neither.
Remember when gas was $0.90/gallon....I actually do , but I also understand why it's not now.
I'd just like to say thank you for the video about skill at top tier, completely changed my flying style and to some extent refreshed the game for me
I really think Gaijin shoud do like Daybreak on their game Planetside 2, they should do some free premium week-end every month to help the grind, nothing else have to change like this.
And over prem the people with prem time ? Hell yeah now I wonder how much Exp you can get with a 900% boost , prem time and prem vehicle
@@princessapplestrach6327 what?
Why you want a double premium ? No. It will be a normal premium
Guys that already have premium account will get 2 days of premium account given for each week-end passed, like this they don't lose premiums days.
Great idea
I cannot express just how much I love the idea of foldering a lot of the vehicles.
I have a few friends with a mild interest in the game, but cant see them ever getting past WWII just because of the grind, so have been playing alone at top tier. The folder idea would make things soooo much easier yet keep the content there.
Since the summer event i've wanted to set up a lineup for 9.0 germany to play with my leo c2, but first i would like to buy the expert qualification for some 9.0s (radkampf, leo 1a5, which i also need to buy and the c2a1).... ok, i don't play every single day (hell i even take a break of a week or 2) and i also bought the leo 2a6 with sl (i mained germany), including it's expert qualification, but it has more to do with being disheartened by the thought how much sl and grind i'll need to get that lineup working... and the worst part? I prefer top tier mostly over ww2 content nowadays, which isn't the most lucrative option for sl grind... so i either play a ton of top tier to get to that goal or instead play something else i don't want now. And i'm not even sure i would enjoy 9.0 battles... So yeah, i feel that grind problem.
That folder Idea is really smart. I think doing that might really help new players.
>TL;DR
>14 minutes long
Nice one gaijin
i really liked the one hour long video a big counter to those "welcome to my video. war thunder is grindy. thank you for watching " videos that some other youtuber doas
You know it’s bad when the Tl:dr is 18 minutes
The folders idea is really great. For example that Japanese D1Y/B6N/B7N line, before it was just 3 planes to go from the B7N, a half decent grinder for the Japanese plane tech tree (bomber spawn, decent mobility, 20mm cannons, 800kg bomb load) but now just to get to the B7N, a tier 3 (or 4 correct me if I'm wrong) you need to pass though 7 planes, 3 of them being the same planes and just different variants. That can just be foldered up and be done with but no Gaijin needs to force you to grind.
I think grind should be shortened by half? Other than on the low low tier things. What do yall think?
I agree. The grind is too long, and despite me only grinding one tree and playing over 300 hours, I'm only just at tier 4 tanks and tier 3 aircraft. That should not happen, although premium will make it faster.
@@Energy-Miner I’m just past 750hrs and I am barely researching the f-100 on the american tech tree and at the second t-32 heavy tank, but playing 7.7 with a glorified super Pershing is just sad especially with no parts
@@Energy-Miner Why wouldn't you have premium? It is cheap. Get it on sale and it is cheaper.
@@shootinputin6332 bc why give money to the company that isn't willing to make the game feel like a game.
@@micklane7306 feels like a game ro me. Ypu should go play something else.
Besides the folder idea, I've also recently found myself a fan of the 'primary' and 'supporting' lines of progression. For example, making the M4 Sherman line, which heads up to the Abrams, the most expensive to research & grind, but making heavy tank lines a little cheaper, tank destroyer lines moderately cheaper, and light tank lines much cheaper.
This means that players can progress quicker down a tech tree, but can't just rush all the way to top tier. It also means that the primary & secondary heavy & medium lines actually have a vehicle line up to support them sooner. For me, one of the worst feelings is unlocking something like the FV4202 or a Tiger I but not yet having any other tanks to support it. You're then left with the choice of playing your matches with only one vehicle, or sitting on that tank you've unlocked for the next month while you grind out a Panther and Jagdpanther.
The repair costs, man. As much as I want to fly out my swedish jets, the repair cost vs the performance of the planes just don't line up.
Why the fuck is the j29D cost 20k to repair when the plane is outperformed by almost everything in its br. Its like gaijin doesn't want you to play them at all.
I stopped grinding the swedish tech tree due to this and stuck to my A7D for the 6k repair cost. I earn more SL this way. With that said, it got so boring that I stopped playing seriously - which may not be a bad thing, but its getting boring.
All 3 of J21 are so expensive i lose 10k every match.
I just stopped playing USA and Germany bc the grind was too much at rank 5 and switched to Sweden with a premium and premium time the grind is a lot smaller but man the planes have insane rep costs especially when I’m playing an alright vehicle for its br and compress into the ground it makes me mad to pay 10k sl. The sl costs are probably to make players not think of Sweden as a skip the grind tree thing.
@@milox697 ye
Also don't forget that the now 7.0, and going to be 7.3 British lineups cost more than 10k sl for each tank. I don't have a problem if they want to up BR them, but for the love of god, lower the repair cost.
@@SpecterCat_ I am still in disbelief. I wanted my first jet to be SK60B. When Operation WINTER was running only J21-A3 was 8k to repair. Now all 3 of them are so expensive and why is that 2.7 Bomber so expensive too. I can't make any profit from playing those planes. Only time i earn something is when i win the match even then i am 1k in earnings.
Gaijin.... hire this man
If they hired him.... He would have to be like Mike and Oxy. I loved Oxy but now he is restricted in what he can say. All that to say, Don't hire Koala or Tec so they can remain objective and make a better game for us all
@@johnreiman7127 there will always be restrictions about leaking info, but if we're talking about the video's of oxy there are 0.
Oxy has mentioned before in his videos that he will still be able to make the exact same content about the vehicle ratings.
This video features problems of War Thunder with mostly good solutions for them, although only this would never be a reason to hire someone it COULD help with fixing the problems.
Btw this is my first pinned comment ever, tyvm!!
@DestroyerTom ?
Definitely foldering makes so much sense. Group the Sherman 75s together the Sherman 76s together, have panthers in one and tiger/2 in another have all valentines in one have the t34s minus the big differences in one and all of a sudden we have a perfectly accessible really short grind to top tier while simultaneously having that grind become less of a path to get what you want but also a mastery thing. Make it less of a I have to research 100 vehicles to get the Abrams and more of a “I decided to research every American vehicle because I enjoyed it”
I feel different about the grind.... I like how hard you have to work to get good stuff
Couldn't agree more with this, FBI sir...
It's not so much that it's the "good stuff" though... it's the fact that for many thousands of players they couldn't give a toss about WWII content, but would LOVE to play War Thunder's modern MBT's... so why should they be faced with a HUNDRED vehicles and more than 500 hours of gameplay before getting to unlock any of it..? They're just not going to play...
Except you can just spend $$$. Not to mention top tier premiums
@@theScottishKoala i fit into this as well. I love ww2 tanks like the tiger. But i also love the abrams. And over the years only one nation i play is top tier japan. Because of how few vehicles they have. 4-5 years playing i am still not top tier in germany or america. And im low mid tier for every other nation except sweden and china which i hardly play at all
@@thebibledoc2320 no, you don't understand. People like me have no interest in playing WW2 era tanks, and would like to skip them. But maybe this game is not for me
When I started playing in 2013 The research trees and the lines were just that.
You could pick one "column-line" of planes just unlock that one. You didn't need to grind 5 or 6 vehicles before advancing to the next tier of vehicles.
And there were no B.R ratings back then either. It was just based on tier level in the line you were unlocking/researching.
So much better.
9:00 yo what is that smoke ....
It is too thicc and how do i get one myself
It was Christmas event thing.
New Year Smoke, you can't get it anymore
I say unlock everything and just have sl as the barrier to playing different tier stuff. Players can then populate the better earning tiers that can be changed periodically so everyone isn't bored to death with low br stuff.
I agree with this video's idea of folders.
Nothing has ruined my day more than coming back expecting to grind through a tier probably only to find out six new vehicles have been added to the tree i was researching.
I love the idea of putting tanks in folders and moving towards homogenizing research costs across tiers. Reserve always feels to short, you don't even understand how to use your vehicle before its throwing twenty more at you, but once you get up around 6.0 and onwards you're in for ten or twenty games just trying to get the ability to fix a flat tire and put the fire out. The radical exponential experience requirement growth at higher tiers is just insane.
And for anyone who isn't aware, World of Tanks has effectively also subtracted the grind time because they sort of streamlined/simplified their tech tree, removed some unnecessary vehicles and put it into a collection category. World of Tanks tech tree is now basically, one main line in the lower tiers, and it branches into 3-5 lines that varies from classes to playstyles of two variety.
I am so happy I am not the only one who had this idea with the folders. And that someone has already put it to light.
This is actually a brilliant idea Koala. The problem is how to get this suggestion to the actual developers of Gaijin so that they can seriously consider this. The problem is they don't listen to criticism or solutions and in the past even tried to censor criticism and complaints.
What an interesting and entertaining video! Koala I love you man! Great stuff.
I gotta say the Folder Idea is the best I’ve seen to help the grind, it’s just the 1st idea of making a separate tree for modern tech I don’t wanna feel like I wasted over 1000 hours to get my first MBT.
About the folders: there is actually nothing that stops Gaijin from
a) Putting vehicles of a higher rank in a lower folder, Allowing you to get higher ranked vehicles vhile grinding out a foolder startes in a lower rank.
b) allowing each folder to be able to branch out in a "mini tree" to allow a folder to be grinded out non-liearly.
c) Allowing a vehicle to occupy several positions in the tech tree. I.E in a lower rank folder, _and_ in the tree at the higher rank, allowing you to unlock it from either path. - So basically once you unlock the vechicle, it's unlocked in all the positions it occcupies.
I'm one of the Old Guard and remember never worrying about SL. I grinded through Germany first cus I always thought their tanks were cool. I basically got expert crew on anything I enjoyed because I wasnt hurting for SL. I was in the Leo's when they released the economy "update" and that took SO much fun out of the game. I'll hop into some things when I'm looking to have fun (Italy, mid tier Germany, and especially sim) but gaijin doesnt cater to just fun. They dont give much at all to sim players and we all play it because it's fun. You can't do tasks in sim and the repair costs for things may be doubled in sim and if you are researching something more than 1 tier away your RP is reduced by 60%. They force you to play the next tier, not exactly what you enjoy
I have to agree. As someone who recently quit WT due to the grind theme and the tech issues I spent almost 3 years of ocassional play sessions I only managed to get Germany to 5.7 (my main tank tree) the US plane tree I got stuck at around 4.7- 5.0. Other nations I got myself to around 3.0 (the ones that I played like USSR, Japan and Italy). I don't agree with making the grind easy because that takes the thrill, but the amount of monetary gains and losses you have at the end of a couple of hours of a game session without premium barely gives you enough to get an eight of a vehicle you are grinding. I don't want to return until there is a proper grind fix and of course the B.R Compression system gets a rework to make matches balanced and playable.
I have been playing War Thunder for about 3 or 4 years now, and have spent over $100 USD, and my highest BR is 6.3 in Germany. It does get annoying, and I love your ideas. Keep up the good work!
Absolutely hard agree. Where I’ve found my biggest issue with folders is the Sabres, particularly the German ones. There’s 3 back to back, out of order considering their BR and not all that different from eachother. Such an annoying grind to get to Starfighter.
The proposals in the second half of the video are great. I really hope This Video finds open ears at the developers side. The grind is the only reason why i stopped playing war thunder as my main game
I started playing a year ago to play the challenger 2 and leopard 2 but fell in love with playing tanks like the Churchill VII and Pvkv II
I love the folder and sub folder idea. I feel like everyone gets what they want.
Well Gaijin doesn't, because they at the end of the day do want money, and shortening the grind is not likely to make them any money, it could very well lose them money.
Another idea- There are 2 separate tech trees for planes, tanks and ships, those being vehicles up to just after ww2 props and early jets, then you would have vehicles after then, so cold war and onwards; I believe that this proposal would allow Gaijin to add in newer, more modern vehicles, while making the grind not ridiculously long, this way also allows players who want to play modern jets to play those planes and players who want to play props to play those planes, Everyone's happy!
i cant explain how smart is the folder mechanism, ive been playing this game since launch, and it just burns my soul to play 2 months for a tank just because i dont have money
My very personal preference of an idea would be to firstly, not require the "6 vehices in this tree" bit and make it more of a realistic expectation, and to only apply the progression line to vehicles that are historically significant for progression, for example, to play any vehicle that the sherman is directly related to irl design wise, should be branched or foldered, aka you start with the M3 Lee. And the progression takes you to the sherman line where you unlock in order, M4, M4A1 (75), M4A2 (75), M4A3 (76). And then, directly foldered in with the A1 75 would be the 76, and same for the A2 75, and then the A3 76 would branch into the jumbos, which would be foldered. And then, to get the M10, you would need the M4A2 (75), since thats the hull they used (though quite modified), and to get the M36 Jackson, you would need the M10.
Sounds very complicated, and grindy, right? Well thats where we kick off the rub of this proposal. You start off the TD line with a M3 GMC, right? Well with this proposal, you could hop from M3 GMC to Hellcat to T95 Doom Turtle, to Stryker, cutting the TD line grind in half, although technically depending on how rank progression may change in the game, you could get the striker as your very first TD! Thats about how in depth I'm willing to get in here, but if anyones honestly interested I'm going to put an image of what I'm talking about in Koalas discord, (in time as I have to make the picture first)
i didnt think there were many scottish warthunder players so happy to find this out
Hey man. I loved the discussion tonight. I hope that the community of CC and followers can continue to have good conversations that provoke objective thinking about making the game better. I agree with you on so much, but I also see why it's not so easy to make happen. The debate tonight was such a good thing for WT's future. The more all CC's communities can gather new perspectives, the better we can be to demand things universally and make changes in the game. The conversations you both had tonight is what is needed. Agreements and Disagreements are needed and you both handled them in the best way.
Love your channel and Tec's as well. Keep it up man! * this was posted after the ScottishKoala/TEC debate tonight. 2/18/2021.
I tried to find a way to PM you, but it is unavailable on your discord and youtube channel. But I maybe one day I can be your "friend" on discord, though it seems I cant even send you a request. I think there is a lot of productive conversations to have, and I love the goals you are working toward. Hit me up sometime man.
i like how Armored Warfare, a cold war-Now era tank game with WT damage model stacked onto WoT style hit points (cant really one shot people, but you sure as hell can damage shit pretty easily) And its more PvE focused iv noticed. hell, its my sisters fav game out of the 3 tanks games. AW's grind is the most comfortable i have ever felt.
As a not very good casual from time to time player of warthunder i do absolutly agree with your suggestion.
The folder idea is a great one and I support it. Granted, I still grind out each vehicle regardless, but other people would definitely benefit from this.
Beautiful video, the folder idea is genius
11:46 The T-90A's "eyes" aren't dazzles, they're Jammers. Jamming your internet connection.
What?
Another grind problem (though smaller) is that if you want to play Ground RB in its full combined arms form you either need to accept a much slower air grind, or play Air RB even if you don't want to. Perhaps not horrible for aircraft but the big problem is that helicopters also get reduced RP in Ground RB and unlike air helicopter battles is not a realistic way to speed up the grind (unless you are a masochist).
ScottishKoala, I've seen several of your videos and I enjoy them. About this theme, perhaps they need a little "beyond the current meta" work. For example, spliiting by Eras. Note that some tanks - like T34-85 - would span several eras, others just one. So you could research each era independently, and start at the era you want - though you could for example reserve top tier until you have at least another era finished. It'd also allow for less chaotic / weird matchmaking at the edges of transition. But one issue I'd like to see addressed: the lack of content on which to use the vehicles we have. Gaijin needs to make a proper game, with missions other than cap A, AB or ABC. In bombers - defend bomber against interception, tree-top attacks vs AA. On ground - defend or attack an area, fighting withdrawal. Mixed ground and air - where you join an air battle, but are fighting over a ground battle. Also more continuous and chained missions, so only the survivors from say 4 matches go to the next, with increased reward. Whatever, as long as its not damn cap A, B and C...
another issue with the grind is when I played War Thunder regularly people really want to double down on 1 nation since getting up in the teir list is not easy, and the 2 friends I played with were really staunch in playing the nations they wanted to play, one Russian the other German, The result was me having 2 grind twice as much without them to keep up, when the speed of progression is so slow falling behind is a real pain in the ass and it detracts from just enjoying the game for what it is, and it's great
they could split the tech tree, but I think there's enough nations now to just shorten the grind, and they could easily make it less painful by adding freebies to unlock between tanks like camos and add ons, add cold war starter packs at a more affordable price etc.
Jeez, subscribed and liked, that is the best idea I have ever heard and I really hope that they listen.
1. Folder idea is perfect.
2. There's another elephant in the room. The F-4 Phantom II, the top of the American tree, is at best a Vietnam era aircraft that managed to hang around until relatively recently in a few countries. It was gone from U.S. service by the mid-90s and then was primarily a EW specialist (the Wild Weasel). The F-14 Tomcat entered U.S. service in 1970. The F-15 Eagle entered U.S. service 1972. The F-16 Fighting Falcon in 1974. It seems incongruent to see late 50s/early 1960s aircraft flying air cap over what are 1990s and 2000s tanks and helicopters.
3. Then there is the bomber problem...or the lack of bombers problem. Ok, I get it, I won't be see a F-117 or B-2 in game because how would you simulate the effects of stealth at the short engagement distances in game. I'm not even asking for the B-36, B-52, or B-1...my assumption is that once you call those in with their massive bomb loads that the battlefield below them would littered with blown up vehicles in short order unless they were shot down very quickly. But the F-111 Aardvark? Why isn't it there? Tactical bombers other aircraft like the A-10 Thunderbolt II should be in the game that aren't, frankly.
Another idea for there to be enough low-tier players is to make the mbt tech trees only available to be played once the player reaches a set BR. Basically a player would reach 4.0 and would then be allowed to play the mbt tech tree, only skipping the 4.3-5.7 BR. Which often is the most annoying BR to grind through. But if they want. This would allow players to experience WW2 gameplay AND MBT tanks in a shorter amount of time
4:27
I start playing in 2016
I have 1 T5, the Is-3
( i also have the Leopard MEXAS and F11, but i farm as hell to obtain them)
As a Wargaming CC, I love this video. I specifically gave up on warthunder because of the grind. I played for planes specifically as WoT was my ground vehicle fix, but the only I put into to it is in the thousands at this point and once the competitive scene fell off a cliff I feel like my time has come.
You mentioned that wargaming listens to its player base and they do to a certain degree but their biggest issues are still arty and lopsided teams where the games end in 4 minutes or less. Most top tiers take at least a minute to get to the battle. 1/4 of the game is driving to the fight and watching your team die all around you. It isn't as fun as it used to be. As for the devs they listen with one ear closed and refuse to directly answer questions we had for years. Like arty and stun, or crew skills. It took almost 6 years to get a weird tutorial that doesn't really teach you anything.
WG now spends most of their time trying to get you into top tiers and selling a new broken premium tank every few weeks. It's old and stale and the players are kind of tired of it. But the gripe is no where near as bad as war thunder. I would absolutely love to talk the aspects of both games to see if we could make the games we love better for everyone while also keeping these businesses thriving. @thescottishkoala
its absolutely insane that I can grind myself to top tier in one category in each of WG's "World of" games in less time than getting top tier vehicle in WT's one category.
I like the folders idea a lot it offers a good solution for both players and gaijin
I think another issue is that it's a really dense gameplay experience that has three separate vehicle control schemes with three major different gameplay styles to learn. I picked it up after a year and it took a week to get used to the controls for just Naval warfare.
This is truly an amazing idea that gaijin really need to work on. I’ve also been playing this game for 8 years and I know from completing almost everything that this will definitely help out the people new to the game. It isn’t fare for the new players to grind 50 plus vehicles when the veterans of the game only had to grind 10 and continue on from update to update.
People don't realise that it is the grind that keeps many players playing. Keeps them working towards something. Accept the grind, love the grind.
I believe one fix to the grind issue (which i feel gaijin is moving towards) is to move more of their monetary gains to a leveling system outside of B.R, making a form of battle pass which gives more rewards to people that pay for them. If they massively cut down the grind and then promote a new battle pass type of system full of rewards people consider worth the money they would likely see a lower percentage of the player base spending money (because it isn't required to grind) but would see a significant increase in the total number of players. this system could also work towards making the game more competitive at higher levels since it would enable people to play against higher ranked players at any B.R since it is separate from the B.R system. I don't think such a system would be hard to pitch to gaijin either, you can easily make special tank variants available through a battle pass which would greatly encourage people to still spend money, but at the same time because it is a pass with multiple rewards it won't feel so bad when some rewards are nerfed. you get a maus and have some fun when a B.R change makes the maus unplayable, but oh hey now you get a t-34-100. you throw in some cool camo and cool/weird and even downright meme worthy tanks/planes and people would feel like its justified to spend the money since you get a more diversified reward and not one thing that might be unplayable next update.
That folder idea is genius!
Add on decompression (BR 17.0) reduced premium ($40 for a year sounds good) and I’d support the devs 100%
Thank you for addressing this again. The grind is what has driven me away form the game. It has taken me 2 years and 2000 hours to finally reach the m1a1 abrams and the be frank. It broke me. I don't think I will ever be able to find fun in the game again because all I see is the grind. I hop into one vehicle match get killed early am reminded how this is costiing me silver lions and that I wont be able to minimize the grind time now and immediatly log off. They really need to slash the grind in the game by halve for me to even really consider joining again. It really makes me sad as Warthunder is a truly great game at its core. I still remember the THATS SO AWESOME FEELING I got when I would dogfight enemy spitfires in a bf109 while underneath me tanks brawled in the streets but I cant find that enjoyment any more due to the obscene grind. In WoWs the grind is always secondary and thats how it should be. I play fun ships and before I know it the next fun ship in the tech tree is ready and waiting for me. Thank you for using you platform to preach about this again. Hopefully the snail will react to this before its to late.
I thought that a good way to separate the problem of ww2 and top tier mbts would be to use the same idea that helicopters did, that we could separate the nations into separate trees, with say the t62 and t55 1st gen mbts being in the end line for the ww2 tech tree, and only after getting a rank 5 vehicle does the post war mbt line open for research, meaning that players don't get a lineup with just 1 vehicle in it, whilst also separating or at least alleviating the problem of tigers and such seeing atgms and heat fs. Maybe it cam work in a way where once you get enough vehicles in the current way gaijin's got it set up in rank 5 to unlock rank 6, then the new mbt tech tree will open up with say 2-3 vehicles already unlocked, a sort of reserve vehicles at maybe 8.0+ with repair costs but no crew train costs.
I picked up War Thunder for the WWII vehicles, and was looking forward to seeing more and more unique pieces added to each tech tree. But so many decisions make no sense! The M8 Greyhound armored car is a premium for the US, but china gets it as a reserve. The Sd.Kfz 251 with the 37mm and 3 of the 4 puma variants are premiums for some reason. the M14/47 or whatever that italian light is at rank ii is a premium even though it should be a tech tree vehicle. And dont get me started on everyone getting P47s and Shermans!
I remember when it first came out, I hopped into the German aviation tech tree and got to battle rating 5.0 in about a week or so, I felt that the progression via the free to play option wasn't that bad at all back then...but now, just unlocking a new tank and grinding out the lions to afford said tank at a low battle rating takes way too long and it personally discourages me to put in the time to grind out the tech tree which is a shame because i really want the Chieftain MBT's and T-54's