Put the gas block on backwards to block the gas. I ran a 22lr conversion like that for a while. As a bonus, you'll still have the weight there in case it matters.
I understand this struggle. I needed a raw SS gas block for mine and could only find 1 that fit what I was looking for that wasn't $75+ I am now shopping for one that uses the dimple.... at least with that I can be sure it's lined up.
@@timewave02012 this plus it the barrel harmonics should be affected less and only show how much the connection between the tube and the receiver changes accuracy. I honestly don't see how it would effect it much seeing as it floats in the upper though. I suspect the accuracy difference is coming from the action of the bolt not necessarily the gas system. I would like to see a test where the gas system is modified even in the conventional version so that it's single fire. Maybe there is an adjustable gas block that can block all gas?
I don't get these dumb videos, it misleads people to believe the dumbest shit without actual research. Does harmonics not play into accuracy? I'm sure it does. Are there true free float AR's.......yes (Athena Precision).
By that definition, exactly zero delayed blowback semi-autos are free floated. Which is fine if you want to be pedantic but it obfuscates the very real difference of a free floated handguard vs. barrel mounted handguard. In the same way, being pedantic about DI/piston is silly given that true DI doesn't exist in the modern context.
G3 family is honestly the only "true" free floated semi automatic guns I could think of. The barrel only touches at the trunion and no where else since it has no gas system. I totally agree on the pedantic part.
Isn’t the Serbu Arms BFG-50A a true DI system? If I recall, Ian from Forgotten Weapons said it was a true DI system in his video of it that came out a few months ago.
@@Phixeon act like a little baby because you got laughed at for using the beta form of AD. I'm pretty sure you meant to use "BCE" too which makes it funnier and proves my point that trying to change a centuries old naming convention is pointless and confusing for smooth brains like yourself.
75% of his videos that "instill mind blowing knowledge" are just pedantic word games.. Well um.. excuse me sir.. but technically you're not going to take a shit! You are leaving one! I will measure the total volume of the toilet before and after to prove you did indeed "leave a shit".. not take one!! I'm smart!
Free float is a concept originally implemented via a steel tube over the barrel under the handguard the length of handguard to which a sling loop was welded. This kept the barrel tension consistent when using sling support, very important when shooting in 600 yard events to prevent vertical stringing and low scores. Free float today in the form of a rail serves the same purpose as the free float tube which in a word is accuracy. Non free float rails such as the KAC seen on M4’s, while accommodating accessories, does not match condition the rifle and thus variable tension on the barrel produced by artificial supports, ie bipod, sandbag, sling, etc will all alter impact, which becomes more discernible as target distance increases. This is why it is so important to only apply enough pressure to the handguard from the non firing hand to control the rifle, since too much pressure on the non free float handguard/rail is sure to alter bullet impact.
Doesn’t make much of a difference under 200 yards. If you are looking at smaller targets at longer ranges then the free floating helps. The vast majority of rifle users today won’t realize the benefit though.
@@Redwood414 How do you figure? I can taper pin a steel lo-pro block the same way an A2 is, and it’ll be just as strong. In fact, there is no sight tower for leverage, and most people run them under rails, so it is more protected and less susceptible to torque than the A2. Let me know if I am missing something.
Isn't it likely you saw accuracy improvement due to an increased dwell time here in single shot mode? The bolt remained locked and closed past the time the round leaves the barrel, unlike this platform does generally.
Here's how you can eliminate variables: Use an adjustable gas block that can be turned completely off. Then you could test the rifle in normal mode, with no gas but still the gas tube, and without the gas tube. The gas block could stay in place the whole time.
@Dominik189 the point is that the gas TUBE is attached to the gas block and also makes contact with the upper receiver and gas key on the bcg. That being said, the gas block may change the harmonics of the barrel, but removing the gas tube removes and directional pressure/leverage it may put on the barrel when it's installed and the bcg closed.
Word play. Point is - a properly designed handguard helps prevent accuracy deviation by flexing of the barrel by the support hand. The rest is just syntax.
Interesting test. My opinion is that the differences you saw were mostly from the lack of weight when you removed the gas block. And from the way the gun operated when you put it back on, I'd say the gas block was probably in a slightly different (and misaligned) position. Was the muzzle device removed in order to remove the gas block? If so, the barrel was torqued both removing and reinstalling the muzzle device. That's an additional change in test variables. If the muzzle device position was not duplicated that could be another variable. I think this is still a very interesting test that raises some good points. A Supurlative Arms gas block would let you shut off 100% of the gas and you would not have to worry about changing barrel harmonics between tests from rotating other brands of gas blocks or torqueing the barrel when removing and reinstalling the muzzle device. You might need to cut the gas tube to remove it so that you don't have to monkey with moving the gas block at all, otherwise you add variables. A properly installed gas tube usually slides into the action pretty easily. It SEEMS like it shouldn't be damping the barrel harmonics very much. My personal and amateur opinion is that your test identified other variables that likely made more of a difference than the fairly loose link of a gas tube between the gas block and the action. I'd also enjoy seeing you run a test with the gas shut off 100% but with the gas tube still installed. That might tell you if your groups were being affected by the action cycling. It might be a challenge in this day of scarce ammo, but shooting a round your rifle likes more would probably give better groups. Then the effects of any mechanical changes made between groups would be more apparent, and the differences would be easier to compare. When you're finally done with the mountain of editing that all of the above would entail; how about a video on what, if any, differences an ultra lightweight gas block makes in group size vs a heavier one? And of course you would need to test several barrels to see if the results were consistent! Lol!
gas tube is not attached to the rifle,it simply passes through a hole that fits in another hole but its not attached mechanically in anyway therefore its free floated.
Barrel harmonics effects point of impact mostly. As long as the whip is static vertically you're just dialing in your elevation. So yeah... this would be a problem at 800+ yards. (Edit: 800+ yds for me. I was speaking for myself... myself using .308WIN)
I'm betting that the gas port was acting like a really weird muzzle break and doing it before the bullet left the barrel. . also you can plug it by just turning the block upside down.
not true..the barrel is free to harmonically move. the gas tube is not attached just hangs in there and maybe slides through the upper slightly. the gas block once attached to barrel is then part of the barrel. The whole idea of free float is that the barrel is not attached with pressure or attachment to forend. so go sell your coffee cups Gus...
Ied like to see more testing on this subject. The more data we collect the better for everyone. Would like to see the gun locked in place to "remove" human error. Great video as always.
It makes sense. Brownells' armorer / gunsmith basically states the same thing. The gas block connection to the BGC doesn't allow an AR 15 barrel to be completely free floating, thus, causing a slight disruption in the harmonic oscillations when firing. However, it is an improvement in accuracy over the "retro" barrel handguards.
Well you're right, this was rather dubious science. What I think really would have been interesting is gas block open vs gas block closed. Grab something like the Strike Industries Collar Adjustable Gas Block that can shut off completely. That effectively closes the gas port removing the effects of pressure in the gas tube maybe effecting harmonics. Need to do this with a more accurate, longer barrel, and supersonic setup though. More accurate of course for better readings. Barrel harmonics are more pronounced in longer barrels and with higher pressure cartridges. Also more dwell(distance from gas port to muzzle) would increase the effect.
Brownells does carry White Oak Armament 18" rifle length SPR profile barrels that are not drilled for a gas system in stock. Sadly, neither Brownells or White Oak have the drilled barrels in stock. Adding to that, there is the barrel harmonics changes (as you mentioned) in removing the gas block from the barrel versus with the gas block installed; there are products that claim to be able to "tune" that vibration out (limbsaver has/had one called the "deresonator"), and even the barrel profile thickness that comes into play. The most controlled, but also the most expensive, would be to have two completely identical uppers. Two of everything with the only changed variable being one with a gas port and one without.
Cut an inch or so off the front end of a gas tube and install it upside down. With the gas port on top it should seal the hole in the front sight base just as well as when the gas tube is installed correctly. You could also try a pistol gas tube in a carbine, or a carbine gas tube in a rifle, if you don't want to cut one off, but the vibrations would introduce another variable.
I disagree with your assessment (surprise, surprise...someone on the internet disagrees.) Even though there are certainly items attached to the barrel as a full assembly, that doesn't mean they're exerting any sort of pressure/force onto the barrel that would cause it deviate. You can _technically_ say this isn't "free floated" because it isn't exclusively the barrel that attaches to the receiver. But it's more pedantic than significant. As the AR assembly goes, the barrel is threaded onto the upper receiver and is secured with a slip nut. Towards the front of the gun is the gas block which is simply clamped/pinned in place. This does not exert any force onto the barrel (aside from a slightly greater mass/weight.) From there, the gas tube is pinned onto the rear of the block and the tube is slid into the receiver. The tube isn't (or at least _shouldn't be_ ) touching the cutout in the receiver. That tube then fits around the gas key in the bolt carrier, but is flared enough to where the gas key is not pushing or otherwise contacting the tube. If you remove a completed barrel assembly from the receiver, you'll find that everything stays in place and can be slid in/out from the receiver without touching anything aside from the barrel nut. Aside from cycling, there is no difference between an AR with the gas system intact and another without gas. There aren't any different locations of increased pressure/stress/force directly caused by the gas system so, practically speaking, the colloquial "free float" and the pedantic "free float" terms are the same thing.
To test this correctly you'd need a delayed blowback AR and a regular AR that you'd test with several barrels, first one test of each barrel, no drilled gas whole, in the DBB AR and then a second test of the barrels with the gas whole drilled and gas block attached.
Several detailed points. -I was going to say your barrel wasn’t dimpled, so it didn’t align back correctly, but then I saw your clamp-on comment. -Your AR barrel CAN be truly free-floated, but it takes some... unconventional... measures. You’re halfway there though, with the Midwest barrel nut. You have to make sure your gas block is correctly aligned to the port (obviously), that the gas tube doesn’t touch the barrel nut (Midwest barrel nut is good for this, but there are others, and some can be modified), and that the gas tube doesn’t touch the hole where it enters the upper (usually needs to be slightly enlarged). Then you should check how the carrier travels in the receiver, how much slop there is, and how it interfaces with the gas tube. Young Manufacturing National Match BCGs can help with this.
What you are learning is that weight anywhere on the barrel and it's accompanying inertia might change point of impact. Look at barrel tuners the FClass guys use. Hell put a heavy can on a 20" pencil barrel. Point of impact change from a constant like a gas block can be adjusted away with scope/sight adjustments. It's dynamic changes that can occur from temp/humidity/grip or support that makes it tough for a rifle to maintain consistent poi.
It's true, it is effectively impossible to freefloat a gas-operated firearm. The best you can hope for is a partial freefloat that limits the contact points with the barrel as much as possible. The best "freefloat" handguards will screw directly into the barrel nut for a hard index, not just clamp. I have seen a lot of very expensive handguards that just clamp, and some very affordable (but no less quality) handguards that actually screw in (Radical Firearms MHR and FGS comes to mind).
Do it. Just us a high pressure cartridge with a thin barrel. I would argue (with zero evidence) an hp round in a pencil barrel would have greater harmonic movement (whip) than 300 blk subs. It would probably be more inherently accurate as well so the results would be easier to quantify.
I want to point out that since you had to cycle the gun each time when you removed the gas block does invalidate that fire string. When you manually load a round the point of impact will be different than when the gun cycles after being fired.
Simple remove the gas tube loosen the gas block rotate it 90 degrees if the fore arm has space or just slide it forward a little so it is not aligned with the hole and tighten it back
one issue with your test is you were changing pressure out the end of the barrel, you had 1 pressure with gas block on properly, when you remove gas block you had lower pressure and then when you had gas block on but not aligned properly you had higher pressure out the end. that is something that will make this type of test difficult.
Would love to see a follow up....so as to not foul up the barrel, what about removing just the tube and corking the gas block? Probably could get a similar manufacturers block and Weld it closed???
This is very interesting. I once used a previously burnt out bbl ( or so I thought) from my service rifle , white oak 20inch 1-7 over 3500 rounds ( groups had opened up to over a minute of angle, from under a half min.) I was using the bbl to test another rifle configuration ( long story) using a hose clamp and shim to block of gas port. Everything worked as planned, however; I noticed the accuracy was back, ( using same lot, every component, of my loaded ammo ) more or less, solid half min. Hmmmm . Installed back on my service rifle with gas system, same ammunition, back to over one min. of angle. I blocked the gas system same as the other rifle and got similar results, back around a little over a half min. of angle . All testing preformed at 100yds bagged, 10 round groups, similar conditions. Repeated tests with both rifles, virtually identical results. Made me consider testing the bbl (plugged) manually operated, to see how much longer accuracy would last. Never did, it would make rapid fire strings interesting. Just an observation made by myself, an average high power rifleman, sharp shooter classification. Richard Frost Indiana.
Really.....????? The gb just adds or subtracts weight from the barrel which obviously affects the harmonics. That is what it shows. The gas tube is not secured anywhere but to the barrel. So it's free floating.
Not sure if you had the muzzle device on or off. but the rotation of a muzzle device changes poi but I guess it wouldn't effect overall accuracy. Just a thought
MP ATIENT maybe they do! Maybe that’s why the fancy ones cost a ton for a little metal tube! it would be cool to watch that it on ultra high speed video.
On some bolt guns people put one pressure point forward of the action in order to change the harmonics of the barrel. I assume this gas block system would do the same thing. It's not so important that nothing touches the barrel as it is for everything to be repeatable and consistent.
On a separate note there was an intro add to body armour. Alert that there is a potential HR bill to outlaw not just the sale of but too the possesion of body armour.
I thought that everyone meant free floating hand guard when they said free float… ain’t it obvious the barrel isn’t free float.. I’ve purchased two ar style rifles in the last few months as a new hobby of mine. Grew up hunting let it go for years now I just shoot for fun. man there’s so many opinions and slang out there I’ve just been trying to keep my builds simple and effective…. It can get overwhelming quick a lot of trial and error. Nice video tho very informative. I recently picked up a 10.5 inch pistol to go with my 16 inch carbine the 10.5 came with an M lok free float 9 inch guard, I kind of like the Magpul mlok standard hand guards with heat shields that I prefer to have. Is it really a big no no to choose the delta ring and guard style over a free float guard ? What you think
I mean, it seems like this is not just the case for the Stoner system, but also for pretty much any gas piston system, since it needs to have a gas block to siphon off gas from the barrel. So you cannot technically 'free float' the barrel. That said, it seems to me like free float rails are a pretty good idea if you're interested in trying to squeeze the most accuracy/consistency out of a carbine. Although they do have the downside of not being as strong as the more traditionally supported rails.
Very true. M lok rails are great for being light and versatile for mounting, but I’ve seen a ton of the cheaper ones bend, and even a good one like the bcm mcmr or the geissele rail can bend with hard use. Best “free float” rail imo is the ris2 from Daniel defense. It’s a quad so a little less versatile, it’s heavier, expensive (cause ya know, Daniel defense) and not quite as slim and round as the m loks, but you’d have to go at it with purpose and a hammer if you wanted to fuck it up. Perfect duty/hard use rail imo.
As far as plugging the gas hole, why not just rotate the gas block a little? Especially if it’s a clamp design, should be able to get a decent seal on it. Plus you’d also have the weight there for sake of repeatability.
@@VSO_Gun_Channel that's such a negligible amount of force that it shouldn't even be said. Your muzzle device pulling the barrel down because of gravity likely makes more actual force on the barrel.
Not really. He's being dumb. The gas tube doesn't change the harmonics at all. It's like claing since the barrel has a muzzle device, it's not free floated.
@@theimmortal4718 you can change barrel harmonics with a 1" chunk of rubber sooooo . yeah .look it up its called a harmonic dampening resonator .. Just a rubber donut .lol
@@hindsight2022 It doesn't. The gas tube isn't attached. Its free withing both the reciever and the gas block. A direct impingement AR will shoot exactly the same without the tube or with it.
@@hindsight2022 Lol. You think those are designed for ARs? You can use them on any rifle. They're not platform specific and there's a real good question of whether they work at all
Hey Curt even a null result is a valid result - and at least to me is still worth knowing about - create and post those videos too.. Failed experiments show how hard it is to do good science. And lot of times those null results stretch and question our understanding and beliefs..
The only war to have a truly free floated semi auto is to have one without a gas system and a different handguard mounting system without touching the barrel, such as an HK PSG-1
Except that the other end of the gas tube only "rests" inside of another piece (BCG gas key) "vs" being anchored and creating an additional (T:2) contact point. So in all honesty, Yes and No. To the true definition = no. Compared to actual contact point(s) that do directly impact the barrel, then = yes it is "free floated" because it is only anchored/secured to the upper receiver in a single location. But lets just be clear. The "up set" is more towards people saying the less accurate statement(s), ie. free float barrel vs handguard.
Never saw anyone do this before, this should be good but I don't think their will be much of a difference if any, MY GUESS. I think it showed promise ? YES DEFINITELY MORE ON THIS, PLEASE. One thing I've also tried is too put pieces of wood between the rail & barrel especially towards the tip. I might try too tap the rail in different places & apply pressure with some type of screw up & down the barrel. I'm really a bolt action guy & bed a lot of rifles, MAJOR DIFFERENCE ON MOST BUT YOU HAVE TOO FIND THE SWEET SPOT, SIR. The gun also must have a good crown, locking lugs lapped ect...
When he mention how its not free floating, i though he was gonna reffer to the fact that most free float hamdgaurds are on the barrel nut wich deos tuch a bit of the barrels harmonics but much less then a standered handgaurd.
No gas block equals a jet of gas that would push downward. An AR15 is accurate enough as it is, anything more accurate one would need a precision bolt action free float rifle.
just take a gas block and rotate it and set screw the hell out of if. bad harmonics go through the gas tube. if you really want a good effect. machine an aluminium gas block / collar thats exactly the diamter of the barrel minus .0005. heat up the aluminium so it slips of the barrel then when it cools it applies even pressure around the barrel and gas port
I would very much like to see you plug the gas port and re-do that test. I shared the channel and this video with three guys in the AR15 parts isle at sportsman’s warehouse in Vancouver WA. They were very intrigued and would also like to see you re-do the test with some sort of a plugged gas port. We would also appreciate a high-speed video of the barrel so we can watch the difference is flex. That is about the best I can do, now make that video! 🤠🇺🇸
Shocked at all the hate in the comments over this.. 100% I find this very interesting. It’s something we don’t ever think about in terms of AR’s. Makes me want to buy a bunch of different gas blocks and test each one on each rifle to see which works best with the harmonics of the barrel design. Especially in terms of a2 Compared to a slimline block.
You’re reaching pretty hard for this one. It totally is free floating. Come back when you’re talking about a piston rifle. The dang tube ain’t secured to nothin. It’s actually free to move and vibrate with the barrel. Edit: I doubt most could even out shoot the difference. You couldn’t even pup off definitive results. Edit II: good deal at the end, get a sled, get a barrel that hasn’t been drilled yet and a barrel that has the block and tube with a shut off. I doubt you’ll see any meaningful difference unless you take it all the way.
i mean the definiton of freefloating and ar15 is all about the handguard lol. Its keeps u from flexing the barrel when u grab ur ar handguard in different places or rest the ar on stand. its massively stops the flex of the front end assembly. I can make my bcm fsb nonfreefloat ar15 flex with little force. i can grab my plastic handguard thats on my delta ring and completly shift the point of aim by pulling down on the handguard with little force. If i grab my freefloated ar15 the same way as my old nonfreefloat build......i see ZERO flex. no flex at all lol. u really are reaching with this. Show me a semiauto rifle with a "true" freefloat barrel system then. go on. maby im wrong lol. but majority of semiauto freefloat system act this way lol. Bro........companys like ruger, lwrc, literally state that there handguards are freefloated.......not the barrel. Lwrc says the handguards are freefloated.....not the barrel. Thats how the fucking system works bud. Pretty much all oem companys sell there handguards as freefloat handguards......no company ever said it would freefloat ur barrel. i even triple checked.
So I see you have a msr15. Why does mine feel stuck? I took out the two screws on the bottom sides but I don't see anything else and am not ready to try and tap it out until I have an answer
If when building an A R 15 to ensure that the gas block and gas tube do not create a deviation affecting accuracy hence (free floating) the barrel one would disassemble the bcg and inserting it into the receiver without the bolt and adjusting how the gas block and gas tube interface with the gas key on the bcg as to ensure it will not affect accuracy hence free floating with minimal interaction between the two and as well there are many other things that can affect accuracy such as tail wobble created by gap mil spec bcg and mil spec receiver's several companies have addressed this issue alone such as Lantec and Midwest Industries enhanced bcg's have seemed to help in the accuracy something else to consider there are many companies building integral suppressed rifle barrels that do not seem to affect point of aim point of impact something as well to consider just because the gas port and gas block are properly aligned does not necessarily ensure that will be the correct place for the gas block to be installed especially if it affects point of aim point of impact respectively
This was a clamping gasblock (the ones that I told you about in the video last week- not to use). Do as I say not as I do.
But, I LIKE my gas block to leak!
Put the gas block on backwards to block the gas. I ran a 22lr conversion like that for a while. As a bonus, you'll still have the weight there in case it matters.
You could be in politics with words like that 😂
I understand this struggle. I needed a raw SS gas block for mine and could only find 1 that fit what I was looking for that wasn't $75+ I am now shopping for one that uses the dimple.... at least with that I can be sure it's lined up.
@@timewave02012 this plus it the barrel harmonics should be affected less and only show how much the connection between the tube and the receiver changes accuracy. I honestly don't see how it would effect it much seeing as it floats in the upper though. I suspect the accuracy difference is coming from the action of the bolt not necessarily the gas system. I would like to see a test where the gas system is modified even in the conventional version so that it's single fire. Maybe there is an adjustable gas block that can block all gas?
Really?? This is like the kid in class that has to argue with the teacher on everything
Yeh, this is a very dumb video
Sooo... your gas tube doesn't "free float" in your upper receiver like ever other AR15. Weird, my gas tubes definitely free float... try again, VSO.
I don't get these dumb videos, it misleads people to believe the dumbest shit without actual research. Does harmonics not play into accuracy? I'm sure it does. Are there true free float AR's.......yes (Athena Precision).
@@shibalseki8818 I guess you could also include all blowback design PCC setups.
@@doolay1988 You both sound like you run ceramic plates
By that definition, exactly zero delayed blowback semi-autos are free floated. Which is fine if you want to be pedantic but it obfuscates the very real difference of a free floated handguard vs. barrel mounted handguard. In the same way, being pedantic about DI/piston is silly given that true DI doesn't exist in the modern context.
G3 family is honestly the only "true" free floated semi automatic guns I could think of. The barrel only touches at the trunion and no where else since it has no gas system.
I totally agree on the pedantic part.
How isn't a delayed blowback free floated?
@@Afroninja52 Are you forgetting the front sight housing and cocking tube?
Isn’t the Serbu Arms BFG-50A a true DI system? If I recall, Ian from Forgotten Weapons said it was a true DI system in his video of it that came out a few months ago.
@@That_Guy5575 It's as much DI as the MAS-49 is, but the AR is more DI.
My dude, you’re trying too hard.
Click bait bullshit
Ah, pedantry..... the last refuge of scoundrels.
"You are technically correct... the best kind of correct." -Bureaucrat Number 1.0 (3000CE, Colorized)
"CE"? cringe
@@tedundercarriage8183 Thank you for providing value to everyone's lives with your worthless reply. You are dismissed.
@@Phixeon act like a little baby because you got laughed at for using the beta form of AD. I'm pretty sure you meant to use "BCE" too which makes it funnier and proves my point that trying to change a centuries old naming convention is pointless and confusing for smooth brains like yourself.
@@Phixeon This is ironic
"Free floated" in the context of ARs means there is no contact between the handguard and the barrel.
Stop being pedantic.
I almost always hear "free-floated handguard/rail" rather than free-floated barrel.
Pedantic is the exact correct word too
75% of his videos that "instill mind blowing knowledge" are just pedantic word games..
Well um.. excuse me sir.. but technically you're not going to take a shit! You are leaving one! I will measure the total volume of the toilet before and after to prove you did indeed "leave a shit".. not take one!! I'm smart!
@@bobvagene LOL funny as heck and true!!!!!
this is probably the only gun-related YT creator I will EVER give a "dislike" to
This guy would probably reply: "These aren't guns. They're rifles."
Free float is a concept originally implemented via a steel tube over the barrel under the handguard the length of handguard to which a sling loop was welded. This kept the barrel tension consistent when using sling support, very important when shooting in 600 yard events to prevent vertical stringing and low scores. Free float today in the form of a rail serves the same purpose as the free float tube which in a word is accuracy. Non free float rails such as the KAC seen on M4’s, while accommodating accessories, does not match condition the rifle and thus variable tension on the barrel produced by artificial supports, ie bipod, sandbag, sling, etc will all alter impact, which becomes more discernible as target distance increases. This is why it is so important to only apply enough pressure to the handguard from the non firing hand to control the rifle, since too much pressure on the non free float handguard/rail is sure to alter bullet impact.
I always run A2 gas blocks, so this never worried me . I think much of the free float hype is largely overblown on a run and gun rifle .
Doesn’t make much of a difference under 200 yards. If you are looking at smaller targets at longer ranges then the free floating helps. The vast majority of rifle users today won’t realize the benefit though.
@@woodrowcall3158 the A2 gas block is more durable than the low profile gas block.
@@Redwood414
How do you figure?
I can taper pin a steel lo-pro block the same way an A2 is, and it’ll be just as strong. In fact, there is no sight tower for leverage, and most people run them under rails, so it is more protected and less susceptible to torque than the A2.
Let me know if I am missing something.
Isn't it likely you saw accuracy improvement due to an increased dwell time here in single shot mode? The bolt remained locked and closed past the time the round leaves the barrel, unlike this platform does generally.
He just learned what free float means, give him a few years to understand what dwell time is
@@mister5357 haha I'm no expert, but isn't that one reason why bolt action rifles in Call of Duty are more accurate? 😆
Here's how you can eliminate variables: Use an adjustable gas block that can be turned completely off. Then you could test the rifle in normal mode, with no gas but still the gas tube, and without the gas tube. The gas block could stay in place the whole time.
The problem isn't if the gas block is closed, it's that it touches the barrel.
@Dominik189 the point is that the gas TUBE is attached to the gas block and also makes contact with the upper receiver and gas key on the bcg. That being said, the gas block may change the harmonics of the barrel, but removing the gas tube removes and directional pressure/leverage it may put on the barrel when it's installed and the bcg closed.
Word play. Point is - a properly designed handguard helps prevent accuracy deviation by flexing of the barrel by the support hand. The rest is just syntax.
Interesting test. My opinion is that the differences you saw were mostly from the lack of weight when you removed the gas block. And from the way the gun operated when you put it back on, I'd say the gas block was probably in a slightly different (and misaligned) position.
Was the muzzle device removed in order to remove the gas block? If so, the barrel was torqued both removing and reinstalling the muzzle device. That's an additional change in test variables. If the muzzle device position was not duplicated that could be another variable.
I think this is still a very interesting test that raises some good points. A Supurlative Arms gas block would let you shut off 100% of the gas and you would not have to worry about changing barrel harmonics between tests from rotating other brands of gas blocks or torqueing the barrel when removing and reinstalling the muzzle device. You might need to cut the gas tube to remove it so that you don't have to monkey with moving the gas block at all, otherwise you add variables.
A properly installed gas tube usually slides into the action pretty easily. It SEEMS like it shouldn't be damping the barrel harmonics very much. My personal and amateur opinion is that your test identified other variables that likely made more of a difference than the fairly loose link of a gas tube between the gas block and the action. I'd also enjoy seeing you run a test with the gas shut off 100% but with the gas tube still installed. That might tell you if your groups were being affected by the action cycling.
It might be a challenge in this day of scarce ammo, but shooting a round your rifle likes more would probably give better groups. Then the effects of any mechanical changes made between groups would be more apparent, and the differences would be easier to compare.
When you're finally done with the mountain of editing that all of the above would entail; how about a video on what, if any, differences an ultra lightweight gas block makes in group size vs a heavier one? And of course you would need to test several barrels to see if the results were consistent! Lol!
Turn the gas block to 1 o'clock, you've got a blocked gas port.
gas tube is not attached to the rifle,it simply passes through a hole that fits in another hole but its not attached mechanically in anyway therefore its free floated.
Prismatic joint
Barrel harmonics effects point of impact mostly. As long as the whip is static vertically you're just dialing in your elevation. So yeah... this would be a problem at 800+ yards. (Edit: 800+ yds for me. I was speaking for myself... myself using .308WIN)
at least the barrel and handguard are wireless. And that leaves us with diminished communications speeds
I'm betting that the gas port was acting like a really weird muzzle break and doing it before the bullet left the barrel. . also you can plug it by just turning the block upside down.
not true..the barrel is free to harmonically move. the gas tube is not attached just hangs in there and maybe slides through the upper slightly. the gas block once attached to barrel is then part of the barrel. The whole idea of free float is that the barrel is not attached with pressure or attachment to forend. so go sell your coffee cups Gus...
Ied like to see more testing on this subject. The more data we collect the better for everyone. Would like to see the gun locked in place to "remove" human error. Great video as always.
Is this new?
I thought everyone knew that from back in the 90's.
freefloat is commonly understood to be the handguard not touching any other point of the barrel besides the barrel nut.
It makes sense. Brownells' armorer / gunsmith basically states the same thing. The gas block connection to the BGC doesn't allow an AR 15 barrel to be completely free floating, thus, causing a slight disruption in the harmonic oscillations when firing. However, it is an improvement in accuracy over the "retro" barrel handguards.
Well you're right, this was rather dubious science. What I think really would have been interesting is gas block open vs gas block closed. Grab something like the Strike Industries Collar Adjustable Gas Block that can shut off completely. That effectively closes the gas port removing the effects of pressure in the gas tube maybe effecting harmonics.
Need to do this with a more accurate, longer barrel, and supersonic setup though. More accurate of course for better readings. Barrel harmonics are more pronounced in longer barrels and with higher pressure cartridges. Also more dwell(distance from gas port to muzzle) would increase the effect.
Boy, ytou sure stirred some folks up Curtis.
Brownells does carry White Oak Armament 18" rifle length SPR profile barrels that are not drilled for a gas system in stock. Sadly, neither Brownells or White Oak have the drilled barrels in stock.
Adding to that, there is the barrel harmonics changes (as you mentioned) in removing the gas block from the barrel versus with the gas block installed; there are products that claim to be able to "tune" that vibration out (limbsaver has/had one called the "deresonator"), and even the barrel profile thickness that comes into play. The most controlled, but also the most expensive, would be to have two completely identical uppers. Two of everything with the only changed variable being one with a gas port and one without.
Cut an inch or so off the front end of a gas tube and install it upside down. With the gas port on top it should seal the hole in the front sight base just as well as when the gas tube is installed correctly. You could also try a pistol gas tube in a carbine, or a carbine gas tube in a rifle, if you don't want to cut one off, but the vibrations would introduce another variable.
I think the more interesting question is between a “free float” rail and a non-floating handguard held by a delta ring.
You just made a straight up one port compensator that pushes the barrel down. lol
I have a Midwest Industries free float quad rail on my 10.5 AR-pistol. I love it! Good video 🤘🏽
Easy way to block the gas port - take gass block, rotate 10 deg. Or, install backwards. Or, lay a bead of weld into the gas tube hole
I disagree with your assessment (surprise, surprise...someone on the internet disagrees.) Even though there are certainly items attached to the barrel as a full assembly, that doesn't mean they're exerting any sort of pressure/force onto the barrel that would cause it deviate. You can _technically_ say this isn't "free floated" because it isn't exclusively the barrel that attaches to the receiver. But it's more pedantic than significant.
As the AR assembly goes, the barrel is threaded onto the upper receiver and is secured with a slip nut. Towards the front of the gun is the gas block which is simply clamped/pinned in place. This does not exert any force onto the barrel (aside from a slightly greater mass/weight.) From there, the gas tube is pinned onto the rear of the block and the tube is slid into the receiver. The tube isn't (or at least _shouldn't be_ ) touching the cutout in the receiver. That tube then fits around the gas key in the bolt carrier, but is flared enough to where the gas key is not pushing or otherwise contacting the tube.
If you remove a completed barrel assembly from the receiver, you'll find that everything stays in place and can be slid in/out from the receiver without touching anything aside from the barrel nut. Aside from cycling, there is no difference between an AR with the gas system intact and another without gas. There aren't any different locations of increased pressure/stress/force directly caused by the gas system so, practically speaking, the colloquial "free float" and the pedantic "free float" terms are the same thing.
To test this correctly you'd need a delayed blowback AR and a regular AR that you'd test with several barrels, first one test of each barrel, no drilled gas whole, in the DBB AR and then a second test of the barrels with the gas whole drilled and gas block attached.
Use a set screw gas block. Flip the gas block upside-down and the set screw should be aligned to plug the gas port when tightened.
Several detailed points.
-I was going to say your barrel wasn’t dimpled, so it didn’t align back correctly, but then I saw your clamp-on comment.
-Your AR barrel CAN be truly free-floated, but it takes some... unconventional... measures. You’re halfway there though, with the Midwest barrel nut. You have to make sure your gas block is correctly aligned to the port (obviously), that the gas tube doesn’t touch the barrel nut (Midwest barrel nut is good for this, but there are others, and some can be modified), and that the gas tube doesn’t touch the hole where it enters the upper (usually needs to be slightly enlarged). Then you should check how the carrier travels in the receiver, how much slop there is, and how it interfaces with the gas tube. Young Manufacturing National Match BCGs can help with this.
What you are learning is that weight anywhere on the barrel and it's accompanying inertia might change point of impact. Look at barrel tuners the FClass guys use. Hell put a heavy can on a 20" pencil barrel. Point of impact change from a constant like a gas block can be adjusted away with scope/sight adjustments. It's dynamic changes that can occur from temp/humidity/grip or support that makes it tough for a rifle to maintain consistent poi.
It's true, it is effectively impossible to freefloat a gas-operated firearm. The best you can hope for is a partial freefloat that limits the contact points with the barrel as much as possible. The best "freefloat" handguards will screw directly into the barrel nut for a hard index, not just clamp. I have seen a lot of very expensive handguards that just clamp, and some very affordable (but no less quality) handguards that actually screw in (Radical Firearms MHR and FGS comes to mind).
I hit you up every day for the Gundies! Sorry you didn't win one. You definitely deserve one. I enjoy your content! Keep it up.
Waste of time. Next time I'll watch Dr Phil to get "ads" every 25 seconds that equal more than the topic
Hmmmm, I wonder if radially delayed blowback like the CMMG PCCs use could be adapted to rifle calibers and used to make an even more accurate AR
This should be a video
Do it. Just us a high pressure cartridge with a thin barrel. I would argue (with zero evidence) an hp round in a pencil barrel would have greater harmonic movement (whip) than 300 blk subs. It would probably be more inherently accurate as well so the results would be easier to quantify.
I want to point out that since you had to cycle the gun each time when you removed the gas block does invalidate that fire string. When you manually load a round the point of impact will be different than when the gun cycles after being fired.
Simple remove the gas tube loosen the gas block rotate it 90 degrees if the fore arm has space or just slide it forward a little so it is not aligned with the hole and tighten it back
one issue with your test is you were changing pressure out the end of the barrel, you had 1 pressure with gas block on properly, when you remove gas block you had lower pressure and then when you had gas block on but not aligned properly you had higher pressure out the end. that is something that will make this type of test difficult.
Nice video dude
what optic do you have on the first rifle
use an adjustable gas block and remove the gas tube. You can shut the gas off at the block.
Aren’t you going to be changing the pressure in the barrel taking off the gas block?
Would love to see a follow up....so as to not foul up the barrel, what about removing just the tube and corking the gas block? Probably could get a similar manufacturers block and Weld it closed???
This is very interesting. I once used a previously burnt out bbl ( or so I thought) from my service rifle , white oak 20inch 1-7 over 3500 rounds ( groups had opened up to over a minute of angle, from under a half min.) I was using the bbl to test another rifle configuration ( long story) using a hose clamp and shim to block of gas port. Everything worked as planned, however; I noticed the accuracy was back, ( using same lot, every component, of my loaded ammo ) more or less, solid half min. Hmmmm . Installed back on my service rifle with gas system, same ammunition, back to over one min. of angle. I blocked the gas system same as the other rifle and got similar results, back around a little over a half min. of angle . All testing preformed at 100yds bagged, 10 round groups, similar conditions. Repeated tests with both rifles, virtually identical results. Made me consider testing the bbl (plugged) manually operated, to see how much longer accuracy would last. Never did, it would make rapid fire strings interesting. Just an observation made by myself, an average high power rifleman, sharp shooter classification. Richard Frost Indiana.
Your barrel wasn’t burned out at 3500 rounds.
Really.....????? The gb just adds or subtracts weight from the barrel which obviously affects the harmonics. That is what it shows. The gas tube is not secured anywhere but to the barrel. So it's free floating.
Not sure if you had the muzzle device on or off. but the rotation of a muzzle device changes poi but I guess it wouldn't effect overall accuracy. Just a thought
I timed it the same each time.
flexible gas tube, your welcome
MP ATIENT maybe they do! Maybe that’s why the fancy ones cost a ton for a little metal tube! it would be cool to watch that it on ultra high speed video.
On some bolt guns people put one pressure point forward of the action in order to change the harmonics of the barrel. I assume this gas block system would do the same thing. It's not so important that nothing touches the barrel as it is for everything to be repeatable and consistent.
I clicked the vid because I saw the MI hand guard was expecting something negative 🙃.
You could get a gas port which is adjustable and just shut it off rather then plugging it.
Drop the gas tube and turn the gas bloc over , did that to a Commifornia gun with the Kali key bolt setup.
On a separate note there was an intro add to body armour. Alert that there is a potential HR bill to outlaw not just the sale of but too the possesion of body armour.
I thought that everyone meant free floating hand guard when they said free float… ain’t it obvious the barrel isn’t free float.. I’ve purchased two ar style rifles in the last few months as a new hobby of mine. Grew up hunting let it go for years now I just shoot for fun. man there’s so many opinions and slang out there I’ve just been trying to keep my builds simple and effective…. It can get overwhelming quick a lot of trial and error. Nice video tho very informative. I recently picked up a 10.5 inch pistol to go with my 16 inch carbine the 10.5 came with an M lok free float 9 inch guard, I kind of like the Magpul mlok standard hand guards with heat shields that I prefer to have. Is it really a big no no to choose the delta ring and guard style over a free float guard ? What you think
I mean, it seems like this is not just the case for the Stoner system, but also for pretty much any gas piston system, since it needs to have a gas block to siphon off gas from the barrel. So you cannot technically 'free float' the barrel.
That said, it seems to me like free float rails are a pretty good idea if you're interested in trying to squeeze the most accuracy/consistency out of a carbine. Although they do have the downside of not being as strong as the more traditionally supported rails.
Very true. M lok rails are great for being light and versatile for mounting, but I’ve seen a ton of the cheaper ones bend, and even a good one like the bcm mcmr or the geissele rail can bend with hard use. Best “free float” rail imo is the ris2 from Daniel defense. It’s a quad so a little less versatile, it’s heavier, expensive (cause ya know, Daniel defense) and not quite as slim and round as the m loks, but you’d have to go at it with purpose and a hammer if you wanted to fuck it up. Perfect duty/hard use rail imo.
As far as plugging the gas hole, why not just rotate the gas block a little? Especially if it’s a clamp design, should be able to get a decent seal on it. Plus you’d also have the weight there for sake of repeatability.
Granted that the rear of the gas tube goes through the upper receiver, it is not ATTACHED at the back.
It homes the gas key though
@@VSO_Gun_Channel that's such a negligible amount of force that it shouldn't even be said. Your muzzle device pulling the barrel down because of gravity likely makes more actual force on the barrel.
For a moment the gas tube is full of pressure, that pressure is pushing against the carrier and forward on the gas block.
@@Afroninja52 What if there's no muzzle device?
Duh .. Any gas tube attached to the barrel means its not freefloated .
Not really. He's being dumb. The gas tube doesn't change the harmonics at all. It's like claing since the barrel has a muzzle device, it's not free floated.
@@theimmortal4718 no its pretty obvious . a free floated barrel would touch nothing except the receiver . its a variable .plain and simple
@@theimmortal4718 you can change barrel harmonics with a 1" chunk of rubber sooooo . yeah .look it up its called a harmonic dampening resonator .. Just a rubber donut .lol
@@hindsight2022
It doesn't. The gas tube isn't attached. Its free withing both the reciever and the gas block. A direct impingement AR will shoot exactly the same without the tube or with it.
@@hindsight2022
Lol. You think those are designed for ARs? You can use them on any rifle. They're not platform specific and there's a real good question of whether they work at all
Hey Curt even a null result is a valid result - and at least to me is still worth knowing about - create and post those videos too.. Failed experiments show how hard it is to do good science. And lot of times those null results stretch and question our understanding and beliefs..
I thought the same thing. I’m looking at a gas block wrapped around the barrel and I’m thinking - how? That’s not free floated
Really interesting results! I hope you are able to do another test.
The deviation could be from temperature too...was it warming up? Was the ammo in the sun?
The only war to have a truly free floated semi auto is to have one without a gas system and a different handguard mounting system without touching the barrel, such as an HK PSG-1
I saw a barrel with no drilled gas port on brownells. In stock too. Should work for your perpose.
Thread the gas block hole and put a set screw in it👍
Great video, subscribed! 💪🏼
Except that the other end of the gas tube only "rests" inside of another piece (BCG gas key) "vs" being anchored and creating an additional (T:2) contact point. So in all honesty, Yes and No. To the true definition = no. Compared to actual contact point(s) that do directly impact the barrel, then = yes it is "free floated" because it is only anchored/secured to the upper receiver in a single location.
But lets just be clear. The "up set" is more towards people saying the less accurate statement(s), ie. free float barrel vs handguard.
Fucking love that there is a flintlock pistol with an RMR on it on the wall 😂
Hell yeah greetings from Colorado love to see the science on plugging off the gas ports 👍
so what about direct blowback? Ar-9's dont use a gas system
It only counts if they use glock mags.
Never saw anyone do this before, this should be good but I don't think their will be much of a difference if any, MY GUESS. I think it showed promise ? YES DEFINITELY MORE ON THIS, PLEASE. One thing I've also tried is too put pieces of wood between the rail & barrel especially towards the tip. I might try too tap the rail in different places & apply pressure with some type of screw up & down the barrel. I'm really a bolt action guy & bed a lot of rifles, MAJOR DIFFERENCE ON MOST BUT YOU HAVE TOO FIND THE SWEET SPOT, SIR. The gun also must have a good crown, locking lugs lapped ect...
Turn your adjustable gas block off and remove the gas tube try it that way maybe that will work.
When he mention how its not free floating, i though he was gonna reffer to the fact that most free float hamdgaurds are on the barrel nut wich deos tuch a bit of the barrels harmonics but much less then a standered handgaurd.
You rigidly mount the back of your gas tube?
Huh... all of mine float.
Just put a basic clamp around the barrel. Or fire a barrel before its port is drilled and then drill it.
isn't the gas tube floating freely 'enough' in the upper to not mess with the harmonics of the barrel whip?
I was thinking the same thing.
No gas block equals a jet of gas that would push downward. An AR15 is accurate enough as it is, anything more accurate one would need a precision bolt action free float rifle.
just take a gas block and rotate it and set screw the hell out of if. bad harmonics go through the gas tube. if you really want a good effect. machine an aluminium gas block / collar thats exactly the diamter of the barrel minus .0005. heat up the aluminium so it slips of the barrel then when it cools it applies even pressure around the barrel and gas port
So is it ok to put a pistol grip on forend of rail on ar15? Or will it damage gun?
I would very much like to see you plug the gas port and re-do that test. I shared the channel and this video with three guys in the AR15 parts isle at sportsman’s warehouse in Vancouver WA. They were very intrigued and would also like to see you re-do the test with some sort of a plugged gas port. We would also appreciate a high-speed video of the barrel so we can watch the difference is flex. That is about the best I can do, now make that video! 🤠🇺🇸
You could put a gas block and tube on a 9mm barrel just for non free float purposes.
Do it to it. We will be watching
Thank you for this.
If this video a not monetized then why did it have a commercial? Hope you earn some change on this.
i'm not gonna lie, i don't know anything about firearms, i only watch this channel because i think you are a beautiful man.
Shocked at all the hate in the comments over this.. 100% I find this very interesting. It’s something we don’t ever think about in terms of AR’s. Makes me want to buy a bunch of different gas blocks and test each one on each rifle to see which works best with the harmonics of the barrel design. Especially in terms of a2 Compared to a slimline block.
Some people are just smoothbrains
Use a barrel without a gas port, then the only the difference between gas block on vs off will be just that.
You’re reaching pretty hard for this one. It totally is free floating. Come back when you’re talking about a piston rifle. The dang tube ain’t secured to nothin. It’s actually free to move and vibrate with the barrel.
Edit: I doubt most could even out shoot the difference. You couldn’t even pup off definitive results.
Edit II: good deal at the end, get a sled, get a barrel that hasn’t been drilled yet and a barrel that has the block and tube with a shut off. I doubt you’ll see any meaningful difference unless you take it all the way.
Rolling the concept around. But no it’s not, that gas tube interacts with the carrier
i mean the definiton of freefloating and ar15 is all about the handguard lol. Its keeps u from flexing the barrel when u grab ur ar handguard in different places or rest the ar on stand. its massively stops the flex of the front end assembly. I can make my bcm fsb nonfreefloat ar15 flex with little force. i can grab my plastic handguard thats on my delta ring and completly shift the point of aim by pulling down on the handguard with little force. If i grab my freefloated ar15 the same way as my old nonfreefloat build......i see ZERO flex. no flex at all lol. u really are reaching with this. Show me a semiauto rifle with a "true" freefloat barrel system then. go on. maby im wrong lol. but majority of semiauto freefloat system act this way lol. Bro........companys like ruger, lwrc, literally state that there handguards are freefloated.......not the barrel. Lwrc says the handguards are freefloated.....not the barrel. Thats how the fucking system works bud. Pretty much all oem companys sell there handguards as freefloat handguards......no company ever said it would freefloat ur barrel. i even triple checked.
lol......its literally a freefloat "handguard" show me the company selling freefloat "barrels"
Super excited to get some replies
@@macalpha4099 If only you triple checked grammar
"I will come up with a way to plug the gas port!"
Um...Rotate the gas block 90 degrees..... (face palm)
So I see you have a msr15. Why does mine feel stuck? I took out the two screws on the bottom sides but I don't see anything else and am not ready to try and tap it out until I have an answer
If when building an A R 15 to ensure that the gas block and gas tube do not create a deviation affecting accuracy hence (free floating) the barrel one would disassemble the bcg and inserting it into the receiver without the bolt and adjusting how the gas block and gas tube interface with the gas key on the bcg as to ensure it will not affect accuracy hence free floating with minimal interaction between the two and as well there are many other things that can affect accuracy such as tail wobble created by gap mil spec bcg and mil spec receiver's several companies have addressed this issue alone such as Lantec and Midwest Industries enhanced bcg's have seemed to help in the accuracy something else to consider there are many companies building integral suppressed rifle barrels that do not seem to affect point of aim point of impact something as well to consider just because the gas port and gas block are properly aligned does not necessarily ensure that will be the correct place for the gas block to be installed especially if it affects point of aim point of impact respectively
Love your content. Thank you!
THIS IS A SUBJECT NEAR AND DEAR TO YOUR HEART!!
What optic was on the first gun?
Well, Ain't that Cute. I sold a mug like that in a yard sale for a $1.
It’s not just DI ARs, same goes for piston too
Correct
*Chad meme*
"Why yes, my AR isn't free floated. How could you tell?"