Ex-Oura Advisor: The company is artificially altering your Sleep Data
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
- Dr. Cody dives deep into Oura published methods and analytics for sleep
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Muse S Sleep Validation Study: ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/...
Oura Sleep Analytics Study: www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/21/13/...
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Episode Timestamp Notes:
The problem with a ring sensor: 0:00-2:30
Issues with Sleep Staging: 2:30-3:49
Oura Tweaking The Data: 3:49-5:52
Testing against brainwave EEG: 5:52-8:07
Concerns about physical readiness scores: 8:07-10:09
Edited with Gling AI: bit.ly/46bGeYv 
Наука
Muse Headband 15% Dr. Cody Discount (applied at checkout): choosemuse.com/codyrallmd
RentMD for Muse Rentals: www.rentmd.co?sca_ref=5391739.1NgfaktnMK
Myndlift: Want to connect with a Neurofeedback Myndlift coach? $60 off with this link: signup.myndlift.com/subscription. Enter CODYRALL at checkout.
Mendi Affiliate Link (free shipping, 20% off, applied at checkout with code “mendiwithdrcody”): www.mendi.io/?discount=mendiwithdrcody
Pulsetto 10% off: Enter "Cody10" at discount checkout: pulsetto.tech/ref/Cody+Rall/
Sens.ai: Enter “drcody” at checkout for a $100 discount www.sens.ai
Neurosity Affiliate link (free shipping auto-applied at checkout) neurosity.co/drcody
Oura Affiliate Link: ouraring.com/codyrallmd
FocusCalm $25 off: Enter "DrCody" at discount checkout: www.focuscalm.com
Sorry but your muse headband is not the gold standard, and making a cooperation with ref link to a device that is in the same field you do critic the most popular product is shady. Also you have no studies just anacdotal evidence in comparsion to a device that IS NOT the gold standard. There are actual studies on the oura ring and the gen3 algorithm that test on 97 subjects and found the ring to be at "84% accuracy rate for sleep staging when compared to PSG" (Study from the e University of Tokyo and you can find others online)
I’m currently using my Watch with the AutoSleep app, my Ōura ring, and a WiThings sleep pad sensor, of these, the WiThings significantly overestimates my sleep time, while the ring significantly underestimates it, and the watch with AutoSleep seems most accurate. Your video was helpful in understanding why the ring underestimates my sleep time, though I also have a significant hand tremor which is likely related as well.
This was a great video. I am on day 3 with my ring. Thanks so much for sharing this.
Nice video thanks. I have a ringconn, which I probably has algorithms similar to the oura. It's excellent for recording when I fall asleep, and periods during the night when I'm awake... and if I wake early in the morning for an hour and go back to sleep it doesn't miss a beat. Like your experience with the oura, it's telling me I don't get enough rem, which I suspected was wrong, since i seem to dream quite a lot. The ring is way way better than my garmin instinct, which often "thinks" I'm alseep when I'm just lying quietly, and doesn't give me any deep sleep much of the time.
Your videos are getting better and better
Much appreciated!
My experience is that SPO2 and sleep stage data sucks for Apple Watch/Oura/Garmin, but actual sleep detection like hours slept works really well on the oura ring and the only thing I use it for. The thing I love about Oura vs the Apple Watch (I wear both) is that it captures the naps really well.
Awesome, I'll be sure to try that out. Yeah they really struggle with the sleep stages. Just got my Apple Ultra 2 and will be testing it. What are your sleep hours like? Later than mine? I think that might improve hours slept.
@@CodyRallMD I started with a 6, then went to 7 Cellular, then upgraded to Ultra (first gen). I haven't tried the latest Watch OS Version, but my experience is that you have to setup your sleep schedule, and it will detect when you go to sleep within the schedule, but if you oversleep the alarm, then sleep tracking stops or if you take a nap during the day, it will not pick it up. It's just very impractical and narrow compared to most other devices that detect your sleep just by wearing it and don't require a strict structure for sleep detection. I love the battery life and display size of the ultra though. Totally worth it. Just wear my oura for sleep tracking.
Hi Cody, I love your videos. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the Somnee sleep neurostimualtion headband. It has Matt Walker as a scientific advisor
What if I combine my Ring data with my Muse EEG data to get more accurate average values when I sleep?
Any update on the new firmware update changing your sleep scores?
I've been Team Oura since just before the pandemic, but I've really done a flip. As a lifelong NREM-Parasomnia sufferer, I *really* want to see precisely when I'm in various sleep stages, not just data-smoothed estimates. I decided to additionally wear a FitBit Sense 2 a few months ago, and it's been notable how much the sleep cycle maps differ between the two products.
On top of all of this, I'm on my second Oura in that time period, and found that my batteries became weak at about the two year mark. My second is now getting to that point, and I don't think I'll be replacing it (it was a warranty substitution).
The Muse is fascinating, but probably a bit invasive, given the sleepwalking... Still, I'd love to see the data it generates. Have to put some money in the piggy bank!
@@marieb8774If it was new 2 years ago, my experience is that they'll send you a free replacement the first time. Very frustrating, though.
Same problem. Not quite two years old and no longer holds a charge.
Thanks!
The Oura seems to accurately judge my sleep latency, but my beef is that they ding my score for falling asleep too fast. I’d caution against using the Muse as a reference standard until they actually incorporate the new algorithm into the device. They move so slowly! The original algorithm (which it still uses) isn’t accurate. You should try to find a used Dreem headband.
My experience with the Oura Ring has been generally positive. The machine learning system they use compensates for many of the limitations inherent in their sensor technology. It accurately records sleep phases within expected parameters. However, the daily fitness recommendations are not as reliable and, in my opinion, lack value."
Okay now tell us whats the most accurate consumer sleep tracker 😊
My precious......
Thank you for the follow up video Cody. I wrote a long comment in your comparison video, Muse vs Oura vs Whoop, you might have missed it since I didn’t see a response. I believe that all the non-EEG devices have to resort some sort of a machine learning algorithm in order to predict sleep stages. Even in this case, they may not access to N2 stage, which is characterized by sleep spindles and K-complexes and which is often the case as PPG devices only report deep and light sleep. Quantified Scientist channel made extensive reviews on wearable devices and he has come up with the conclusion that the best device that imitates an EEG device in sleep tracking is Apple Watch while Oura, Whoop and Fitbit are distant second. I respect what Oura is trying to do. However, their heart rate measurement was not among the best which would ultimately affect the sleep monitoring.
Yes even the EEG wearables are using machine learning now too. But their data is more central to what is actually happening in the brain. The Muse definitely has access to K-complexes and sleep spindles, Chris Aimone sent me that data in our call. But yes, the peripheral sensors will not have that data. I just got the Apple Watch Ultra 2 so I will be testing that over the next month. Quantified Scientists has a great channel! I like how he presents the data dry. But I think there is room for personal anecdotes and clinical medicine examples too, which is what I am trying to include as well. Thanks for commenting!
Can you do a deep dive of ultra human ring?
Idk which one to get 😭😭
I used the Muse S for sleep tracking but the band was unreliable. Muse sent me an improved band that seems better but their multipurpose band for meditation and sleep I believe is poorly engineered from a reliability standpoint and is a weak link. It’s also frustrating when I can get the the original Muse I have from 2016 or 17 to quickly sense all sides of my brain while I have to faff about with the Muse S and it’s lateral sensors, constantly readjusting.
I use an Oura Ring Gen 3, Watch Ultra 2 and a Whoop band as well.
From a purely “how do I feel when I wake up” standpoint. I have say the Oura Ring 3 most accurately mirrors that with the Apple Watch next and the Whoop band last.
I would use the Muse S for sleep tracking if the band was reliable and less frustrating to use. It’s ironic how something that’s supposed to put you in a calm state of mind ends up being somewhat infuriating.
Be advised this is MY experience and hardly scientific.
Wishing everyone on here restful sleep !!!
Amazing video
Thank you!
Bring heart tracking to the mind monitor app!
Are you getting good benefits from heart tracking? I am working on an HRV / HeartMath episode right now
@@CodyRallMDI would be very interested to see this episode! When it will be out?
Title is click bait, there is nothing bad with what they are doing. This is standard practice in building systems that use noisy inputs.
They are doing best they can, it is actually amazing that a ring on a finger can be so precise in detecting your sleep stages.
I hate their subscription BS, but nothing wrong with their approach to measurements.
hes not implying there is anything bad from the title that is your emotional response to it. not clickbait
@@humanoid8344 Total clickbait.
Can we finally say that Oura ring is a FRAUD?
Ordered my ring 2 years (!) ago: no ring, no refund, no reply from support, banned in their instagram for asking all the following questions.
Lies
@@familydog are you the company representative? As I would really love my money back!
@@PolinaKrivykh I wish, then I could get paid for making observations.
Also I find that the @TheQuantifiedScientist does pretty good indepth reviews of many different devices and how they work. Although his recomendation of the apple watch as a top sleep tracker is completely ridiculous, because you have to do way more than just wearing it to get it to work for sleep tracking the way other devices work and it's data is totally subject to how you setup your sleep schedule and doesn't grab naps, etc. He just looks at the data and ignores the lack of any reasoable usability.
Whoa that's really good feedback considering I just got my Apple Ultra 2 and will be testing it. Thanks!
I too want to recomend @TheQuantifiedScientist. After all the Oura Ring is not bad. I have to correct the data every time, because the ring thinks I go to bed when I lay down on my sofa to watch TV.
Agreed! I like the Oura Ring actually. How do you correct the data? Just by making a mental note or do you actually do something on the app?