Passive Solar Greenhouse - Solar Chimney Concept
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
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Happy growing!
I don't think Stanley is ignoring you. He's just basking in happiness at your kindness in providing him with an Olympic sized litter box AND it has a heated seat!
Amazing how much heat you're collecting in that small box!
Thanks for helping me finally learn what those tubes are actually called.
In the past, I've had a hard time describing it without knowing the proper H.E.S. terminology.
This will simplify things greatly in the future. ;-)
That conduit is a great find!Chicken feet are most comfortable on wood whether tree branches or rough cut lumber poles which provide some insulation from cold. Metal and plastic pipe are slippery and I feel they may have trouble keeping their balance. Moreover, I'm concerned that wet chicken feet might freeze on the cold metal pipes in winter. My paw just used strong wood branches from the wood lot for his perches. Love your new little sunny space.
Thank you for this note. I didn't explain clearly enough in the video, but to mellow your concerns I had NO plans to use metal tubing for their perches, it just coincided with finding wood for the project. It'll make more sense in the next video.
I'm endlessly fascinated by fluid dynamics, and I think it's always worth looking into more passive options not just from a cost/energy perspective, but also from the perspective of giving the space the ability to sort of function on its own in a more organic nature and less with the control of humans. I don't know how hot they have to be, but maybe one of those wood stove fans could work at the top instead of needing a solar panel? Or even something made from a thermocouple since you get such enormous deltas in temperature. Might generate enough electricity to move the fan
I see Stanley is enjoying himself :) I like that the greenhouse is about 30F warmer than outside. .of course, frigid -30F like it will be here soon is a non-winning situation lol
I hope you all stay comfortable and as warm as possible coming into this snap...
TY :)
black painted metal pipes is a definite or a rocket mass heater at one end of the bed. Running pipes along to the other side. and then pipe it back and up through a chimney. cover with cob and you can sit on a heated seat and pick greens.
The stack need only be black and fitted to the flex hose for it to work and having it close to the roofline will help melt snow.
As for the solar collector I would keep it close to the glass indoors . The need for heat outweighs the need for light.
I'd pull the air from the top of the stack with a fan at the other end. Take advantage of the heat at the greenhouse ceiling by drawing it into the soil as well as the heat generated by the tube. By going against convection it should slow the overall flow putting more heat into the soil.
Stanley is a beautiful cat 😍😻
Oh shit thats a cool cat with a super cool name 😉
If only we named him Mr. Pitts! :)
Its never to late lolol jk that woulda been wild. But on a serious standpoint thankyou for the videos ✌
Stanley is really a cutie! 😻 Your solar chimney and Solar box is really genius! 👍
We'll have to see how it evolves (the solar box that is)...
cat looks warm and chill
Hi there,
I would wager that you could move the solar collector outside of the greenhouse to avoid 'stealing' light from the interior and it would still get quite hot. Maybe put a large surface area collector against the side of your home next to the greenhouse and pipe it over?
Big fan of your channel. Have shared with friends.
Ken
P.S. I've heard that the reason rocket mass heaters draw air so well is because the stack found within the riser barrel gets SUPER hot. Evidently, stack effect is multiplied by the height of your chimney and/or the heat of the chimney. The point: a short, but hot chimney will draw as well as a stack that is cool, but twice as tall. (so I've read...I have no proof :) The hotter you get that stack, the more it will draw.
Thats why I figure in this case a nice tall stack is called for since it will only be getting hot based on the sun hitting it, not from a fire.
@@edibleacres 👍👍
Have you seen these two sites? www.lowtechmagazine.com/ www.notechmagazine.com
There may be some stuff in the archives that would give your project a boost.
What a brilliant idea. I really hope that works.
If you go with the black tape, try a strip on the roof as a proof of concept in melting snow.
I like your solar stack idea.... really keen to see how it works for you.
(Note to future self, trombe wall in front of the bed, exhausts into the bed.)
What about hanging them between the joists, as close to the house as possible? The hot air headed into the bed wouldn't be preheated, but it would help with getting them out of the way of the plants, and still in sunlight. Hang em on those screen door hooks so they're relatively easy to remove.
Might the air get trapped in the box? Leak up and out through the roof (and melt the snow)? Require a way to circulate the air?
I had 64 F in shade at 4 inch height inside while outside was 32 F (around 3 PM, full sun all day). I intend to make an outside, airtight, insulated pile of bricks and big tiles where I can blow in warm air from the top of the GH (east side), zigzagging thru the pile (top to bottom) and entering the GH one foot above ground (west side), hoping to store heat during the day, drying the air and keeping air circulated. Once I have insulated my foot high brick footings, I will fill my huge collection of half gallon milk jugs with water and align them along the center path to supplement the 20 gallons already in place. But first I will have to grade my pile of B-rated 6 inch thick PIR insulation boards, cut and glue them on the outside of the footings. Big worry is the air moisture level when it is a couple of days clouded (Neversink Farm always ventilates his polytunnel in the afternoon during the winter).
Would love to see photos of this as it evolves, please do share!
@@edibleacres I will try, but noted today that the south facing polycarbonate window mounting system needs a full overhaul, also to allow for a gutter ;-(
That was my idea also to use black pipe I have and make a loop entering down the north wall under the floor up the windows under the roof down the north side and under the floor coming up and exiting in front tof the window. Solar gain would drive it one way and radiant cooling would drive it the other. I would like to build it into a hill so the north wall would be earth.
Really awesome man. Have amazing Tuesday, Andreas from Off Grid Sweden 🇸🇪
Not sure about the pipes, interesting idea. Have you thought about some kind of sky light on the roof to let more light in? I understand that the snow would block it this time of year but most of the time it would allow more solar energy inside. Just a thought. Looking good, love your videos, thank you edible acres!
The roof is clear plastic... It is covered in snow right now but should be very light porous when the snow goes away.
Oh ok. I probably would’ve known that if I had watched all of the greenhouse series.🤦♂️ I must have missed that one.
I like the idea. Maybe install something to narrow the outlets of the chimneys to draw the air only very slowly.
You might not want the collector inside the greenhouse space. That energy is already present in the greenhouse. You are essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul. It might be better to collect the energy from outside the greenhouse for more solar gain/input. It is interesting to note that with the thermal panel inside, even though you are not adding heat to the area, you are condensing the latent heat to a higher temperature. Something to keep in mind.
The solar chimney is a great passive heating and air circulation idea. The way you have it set up now, the air drawn into the soil is at the temperature at ground level.
The highest temp difference and thus highest heat transfer would be pulling air from the top of the greenhouse. Please check that temperature before you continue. The use of a photovoltaic panel to run a fan seems like a great option. Maybe you could incorporate the solar chimney on the discharge side with the fan on the input side to increase the CFMs. The high fan would stack five functions. Heating the soil climate battery, dehumidifying the air, watering the garden bed, providing cooling in the summer and creating airflow to combat diseases and maintain a healthy environment...
Lots of good thoughts here for sure!
@@edibleacres Well, you got me to thinking... LOL. Why not use the solar panel at the bottom to create a supercharged chimney? You might produce enough draw to get rid of the fan!
stack effect works by moving warmer air upwards. If the air at the solar collector side is warmer than the chimney, it will flow in the other direction, or not flow at all. also you are moving the heat up to the roof, rather than keeping it down near the plants, just so you can push a little bit into the soil.
I still think row cover is a easier and better starting place.
I am leaning more towards a solar collector at the stack side at this point actually. I figure if I can stir the air in the space, minimizing the stratification during the day, AND get that heat/moisture to move down through the soil and exchange with that mass it would really help charge that mass. I still plan on the additional cover over the bed for nights for sure.
@@edibleacres Generally speaking stratification isn't the huge deal people seem to think it is. If that space is 2000 ft^3, and there is a 10 degree difference in temperature (extremely unlikely), that is 362 BTUs that you are trying to move around. That is about the loss you will see for each 1 inch^2 area of air leakage per day.
I like where this is going.
Me too! :)
It is an interesting idea. Basically you would try to use the solar chimney to heat instead of cool?
Yes, well, I think more to act as a 'pump' or 'fan' to draw air through the beds and circulate/equalize temperature and humidity in the space during peak of day and get it stored as much as possible down in the bottom of the bed...
Those pipe if they were used in an electrical application would be called "electrical conduit" or just conduit. I hear all your idea and numbers, but never heard what temp you were getting at night... I think the night time temp is the real test. If you can get it so you never go below freezing in your soil, then you can really expand the things you can grow and harvest throughout the year. I have seed for a really awesome banana that produces small fruit and can handle some winter weather and a greenhouse that could stay about 40 would mean fruit year round.
Certainly not staying above freezing yet. Need to button up a lot more and get the systems dialed in better. I still expect the soil will freeze sometimes unless I want to have backup heat in the space which I'm not thinking I'll do...
@@edibleacres My father worked was a manager at a really prestigious farm/store/flower/vegetable store called White Flower Farm. They have incredible landscaping. It is meant for rich yuppies mostly though. When he first started there they told him to water the plants before a late freeze. Apparently as the plant takes up water, it creates warmth and helps the plants keep from getting killed. I know this is random, but it might help you out this coming spring if you are growing stuff in the greenhouse and frost comes through. I would be interested in knowing how the soil does in this deep freeze that is coming through this week. I know you don't want to heat this greenhouse, but you could make a couple of simple things that are off grid that can create a great amount of warmth, as simple as just a tea candle and an upside down flower pot(very neat and cheap). This guy on UK Here We Grow makes a lot of really neat stuff that is super cheap and can help warm up your greenhouse on a cold night, here is one of my favorite things and is super simple. ruclips.net/video/xrBWLaBViIM/видео.html
For those of you thinking putting the collectors out side...
Think of a car in the sun with the Windows up...
Out side you would get some type of cooling
Inside the car temps could hit 120°
On that basis i would think solar collectors would work better on the inside
In direct view of the sun...
But that's just my opinion
I would love to see a Pizza Oven / Water Heater / cob wall Shelving for seed starting. A heated Work Bench and lounge area. If I may ask a question , I remember Videos from a long time ago referring to an outdoor kitchen . Are there any plans to incorporate the two ? Much Love Thanks
We plan to pick up on the outdoor kitchen again sometime this upcoming season. It is very close to this space and I suspect they'll relate to each other somehow, but not sure what that looks like yet...
cob the whole thing, then it has thermal mass to help draw after dark
It's a balance so that I don't block a ton of sun, though... we'll see...
This isn't a criticism, but rather a caution. Don't try to over-engineer this project. Remember the K.I.S.S. rule. I often have to remind myself of that when working new projects. I'm trying to figure out which would be easier, raising the temperature of the soil in the grow bed, or raising the temperature of the air in the green house? If you raise the air temp., won't the soil eventually absorb the heat? If your vertical heat pipe is connected to the buried tubing, might it actually pull heat out of the bed? That's assuming the buried tubing is open at one end. Maybe you need a closed-loop system, where the heat tube is constantly pulling cooler air from the bed, then sending it back through the loop with the aid of a fan within the loop.
I think you were going to blacken those cement pavers in front of the bed so they'd absorb more energy, right? Would be nice to be on-site to help you with this.
Come on over! :)
I hear you on this. It may seem like I'm adding a hundred new elements to the system, but more than anything I'm cycling through options to get to the least fragile ways to have hot/moist air by day be actively circulated in the enclosed greenhouse AND hopefully move through the soil mass and exchange moisture and heat down into the soil... At the end I think there will be less bips and bops floating all over the place in this project. We'll see!
Thank you for the caution and reminder. I appreciate it.
Hey Brian, I think that a closed loop to heat the ground for a heat sink sounds like an interesting idea. But I also think that heating the ground should be the priority too as it will release heat through the night and keep the soil level from dropping below freezing at night. By keeping the soil above freezing you can really expand your growing season and varieties you can grow. I would love to make a Wofati one day.
@@edibleacres, Don't think you have to worry about exchanging moisture in the soil. Just keeping things properly watered may be enough to keep humidity levels where you want them.
@@robertm4050, I'm thinking you're right about making heating of the grow bed priority one. Even if the air in the green house is a bit cooler than the soil, the warm soil will create a micro climate right at plant level. This micro climate can be enhanced by installing hoops and plastic, or row cover. Cold frames are an option, too.
The word Wofati sounded familiar but I had to look it up. Yes, earth bermed structures and living roofs are interesting concepts. If you build a Wofati, be sure to document, then post videos. :)
Imagine the value of that passive heater charging a barrel of water
Nice Video Sean.. Looks like it's all working out really good! What effects are you noticing in the house now?
Still not adding heat to our home in a real way. Although yesterday the door was open for a while and it wasn't a huge difference in temps. I suspect when we're in the 30s/40s outside WITH sun we'll be at a place where the greenhouse will provide a positive heat to the home. I'll share notes as it goes.
And in summer you have a sauna.?
i have the same thing in my greenhouse except i didn't use metal pipe i asked the FB universe for white 4" PVC drain pipe and constructed my climate battery out of that because it was structurally more stable and i knew i was burying it in rocks. i painted it black and drilled holes in it for circulation. it also runs the length out my 8' long greenhouse it seems to work very well but is unable to keep the greenhouse warm at night.
Thanks for sharing the photos of your project. Hoping it evolves in great ways for you!
You should throw some charcoal dust on the roof to melt the snow.
Have you tested the solar collector outside? Would it be effective to create several tall and narrow collectors to go in front of the jambs and pipe that heat inside somehow?
Could be. Although intuitively it doesn't make sense to pull in outside air since it will be SO much colder than the inside air, so I'm not sure I'm going to be doing that.
Clever...but why is the heat being raised so hihggh? It seems it would be better to “vent” it lower where it could heat the air more. or warm the air.
I am leaning that way now that I've gotten more feedback...
@@edibleacres Let the heat move through the space by rising....variant of the principle behind baseboard heaters.
I’m not sure it would work as both ends of the black tubes are being heated and so hot air would like to rise on both sides like a heat tug of war
Good point, something to consider for sure.
Are you holding that temperature difference through the night?
Ahhh... good question! :) The difference definitely diminishes over night as of now since we still haven't sealed all cracks, insulated, etc. It's been average of maybe 15-20F warmer inside than outside most nights lately. Happy with that as a baseline, but it can definitely be improved!
Maybe put it outside with pipe going in?
4:00 if your purpose is to heat the air in the greenhouse, I'm not sure why you would insulate the "heat-absorbing" pipes on their shaded side. Yes, it might increase the temperature at the outlet, but not the amount of heat transferred to the mass of air in the greenhouse. After all, as I'm sure you know, temperature is a measure of molecular motion, not a one-to-one measure of "thermal content".
On second thought, you're hoping that that temperature gradient will "pump" air, rather than exchange motion with adjacent molecules?
The purpose of the metal pipes is not to heat up the greenhouse, but to heat up the air inside them, which would then rise, drawing air under the beds through the black tubes.
The thought is to get the pipes to collect more heat to create a strong stack effect. I would think insulating their shaded side would help, but I'm not fully sure.
@@Ndawgiii Thanks. I did figure that out eventually. Would insulating the shaded side help, or would the difference be minimal?
Won't you be pumping warm air to the outside that way?
He won't be venting to outside.
On a less "mental" and more "instinctive" note: Look where Stanley stands... why is he there... looks like he likes it there... let's thinks about it... I know, no straight answers, but maybe...