Cleat fore - aft position explained including history of its evolution.
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- Опубликовано: 9 апр 2021
- Cleats forward or back on your cycling shoe? Beware there are many misleading videos on this topic. However, even if you find a good video none cover the topic in detail, nor do they explain the history of why we put cleats future back on the shoe today.
Thanks Paul for being a wealth of information for many decades!
Adam I appreciate your taking time to comment. So glad to hear it. If I can ever do anything let me know. Cheers
I liked how you shared some history . The cleat mounting was simple and to the point . Thank you
Tim, thanks. I like to think so, but it took some time to get to simple.
I've been riding for years, but never used clips. Finally got my first clip shoes and pedals and was a bit confused as to where to place the kleat. Thanks for the info!!!
Pearls of wisdom! Thanks for the background - love a bit of history. So many channels give “advice” but cannot say why. I am a recent “cleats all the way back” convert. 4 hour ride today and it felt great! I had been getting some numbness in my left foot (near the toes) and that is gone.
Glad to hear you like it. Thanks for taking a moment to share your story.
Thank you for finally telling us about this. I have sidi shoes and felt I couldn't get my cleets back far enough. Now I can move forward and look for better shoes where the cleat will be where I need
Good stuff and timely. I've been mulling this over for a while and looking forward to giving it a try.
Thank you for the comment. Let us know how it goes. Love hearing back from cyclists.
What a great video. Just got new shoes and was trying to figure out cleat placement. Thanks
Solid explanation. I mounted the cleats aft on my Specialized S-Works shoes. Foot numbness is a thing of the past!
Glad to hear. There may be more going on but it is better and that is great.
Great info Paul. A big fan of you work.
Jon, big thanks for the kudos. Much appreciated. Happy Pedals brother
Mine are fully mid-foot now ( semi-custom Bonts ). I find it very comfortable. It’s very odd using the old forward cleat position once you you go mid foot.
Now I totally understand. You are amazing. Well done.
Thanks for taking to moment to leave a note. Glad you now have a better understanding. I live this so I get it but even some that do live it don't get it.
As an old man of 75 I years ago had a bike with Shimano AX pedals, with the first system and a band over my shoe. Later I mostly changed to an MTB and the SPD clamps, but at a time used the superior LOOK clamp and pedals.
Thanks for the info Paul, this makes perfect sense on why UTBoF was the go to in the past.
Myself have always struggled with to far forward cleat pos due to small feet and being a heel dropper when climbing. Like you said cycling shoes didn't accommodate for a further rearward cleat Pos.
Luckily some do now but I would still like to try a even further rear Pos one day.
Cheers
Andrew thank you for taking a moment to reply. Cycling is so much more comfortable for me and thousands of others. I think there will be a little more aft IN the shoe coming but not much. I think if we see more there will be other changes with the cleat connection...but what do I know. Happy Pedals
Great info! Recently picked up my first set of road pedals. I was used to riding clipless, but was not prepared for the swirl of setup info out there. I followed the first med. method initially. As I kept riding, I kept wanting to nudge the cleat back for better power transfer. Thanks for the great info and the history lesson!
Glad to hear it helped. Thanks so much for taking a moment to let us know. If you would like I have a little more information about cleats I would be glad to email. Let me know Paul at thecyclepoint dot com Happy Pedals. BubbaBeebop (any relation to Beebop pedals?)
@@askthefitter4873 Anytime! No relation btw, just another rando on the internet. Cheers!
I’m fairly new to cycling, just over two years. I started on an Azub recumbent trike and then a Cruzbike S40 (recumbent) bike. One of the first things I done was to buy cleat adapters which brings my cleats back 12 or 24 mm, I use them at 24mm. I recently bought a Basso Venta (upright) road bike and use the same shoes with the same cleat position and I find it great. A lot of longtime cyclists don’t want to listen and still preach the old thinking. Thank you for your explanation, it was excellent.
There are some folks hanging on to old world thoughts. Cycling is full of old tales. Heck even I succumbed to some of them at times, but I am thankful to have learned and moved on in many of them. I am sure there are more somewhere to face. Thanks for taking a moment to share your experience.
Amazing, insightful information!! Thank you!
Thanks for the comment. Much appreciated.
Awesome discussion. Those early cage pedals remind me of when I was in college and I was running marathons and a friend was a hard core biker who raced for Schwinn Paramount. I got into biking because of him. I couldn't afford "real" bike shoes so I filed a recess into the bottom of my Adidas running shoes. Anyway, those were the good old days. To this day I still don't wear skid lids.
Yes.definetly better further back,thanks Paul. A couple years now.Some of the older shoes won' t go back all the way.I have some Time (road&mtn) shoes from the 90's,red/yellow fluoro that I use on the trainer/commute-errand bike.
Glad to hear and thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Much appreciated. I hear you regarding old shoes but as the video says we have learned and therefore some have changed but some have yet to change....
Thanks for the insights!
Glad to hear you like it. Much appreciate your taking time to reply. If you can think of another topic that might be cool to cover let me know. Paul
Interesting video! Just today moved my cleats as far back as they go on my Fizik shoes, been riding with them the other way for 15 years, and much more comfortable right away! Have some new Fiziks coming this week and I hear they are even further back so be interesting to see how that goes.
So glad to hear. Thanks for letting us know.
I struggle with cleat placement for many years on my Sidi shoes. I always had the cleats as far back as I could get them but they still felt too far forward. Over the last couple of years a couple of companies have now started making adaptor plates that allow the cleats go to even a midfoot position if desired. After all my years of riding, I finally have my cleats in a position that feel wonderful. The pedal spindle now goes under the ball of each foot or may a tad behind. Couldn't get even close without the adaptors.
Thanks for taking a moment to leave a reply. I know it takes effort.
shimano shoes if they fit you well have up to 11mm +- hole adjustment on there more recent shoes
'cobbler' haven't heard that word in a while. Thanks for the video
Hey Charles yes the cobbler is not something we hear often anymore. Thanks for watching and taking a moment to leave a comment. Much appreciated.
I just replaced my 12 year old Shimano’s with Fizik and I couldn’t remember where to put the cleats on my new ones. I can’t wait to push them back a bit further and see how they feel on my next ride. Thanks!
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. Let us know how it goes.
Great video! Thanks man. 😎👍
Thanks for the comment, much appreciated
Great video! Thanks!
Thanks for the comment. Cheers
Back in 1990-91, I made good friends and rode a lot with a few pro mountain bike riders, who also raced for the national team on the road. One of them was selling a slightly used pair of Sidi road shoes that I bought and saw he had the cleats slammed back. I thought what the hey and tried it like that, it was a revelation... the next year I bought a set of Time Equipe shoes and you could really push the cleats back on those, geez, I could climb!
It's the only way to set up cleats regardless of if you are a climber or sprinter, the stability of the foot and power generated to superior
Thanks mate for doing a great visual demonstration !
PS, I hated my old Duegi shoes, soft like wet cardboard...
A few folks had it right back then. Very cool story and thanks for sharing. One of the Dueigi pairs I had were wood sole. But the shoe was so fricken tight because I was told they should be TIGHT. We have come a long way. Glad you got to this earlier than most. Ride Learn Grow brother
@@askthefitter4873 This old cranky Irish cyceshop owner sold me my Duegis, I could scarcely get them on, and complained about them... He told me to go and stand in a bucket of water for 15 minutes then go out for a ride...
Stay well, my friend..!
@@S2Sturges Oh yea. Or pour beer on them or some even said piss on them...OMG how did we survive ;-)
@@askthefitter4873 we would have been thirstier if we used beer..... lol....
the byproduct sounded like a more sensible option.... :)
No kidding. Interesting is that there is still a lot of so-called convention wisdom or old school traditions holding tight in cycling. Bottoms up!
Excellent info 👌
Thanks for taking a moment to reply. Much appreciated and glad to hear you liked it. If you think there is another topic that might be cool to cover let me know. Paul
I think there is a middle between futher back and maximum front so you can mix power of the quadriceps and acceleration with calf, it is more flexible.
Thank you i'll try that right now!
Thanks for the reply. Let us know how it goes. AskTheFitter
I appreciate the comment. Hope it worked for you.
Nice explanation 🚴
Thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Means a lot to me. Glad you liked it.
Thank you sir! Cyclist from the Philippines here.
Welcome Phillipines. Worked with a few folks there. Thanks for taking a moment to reply.
I have found that a really good fitting comfortable shoe is the start point. Too big a shoe to make it comfortable put the cleat in the wrong position. So start with the correct size shoe that is comfortable. Wide fitting for wide / broadtail foot and visa versa. You now have a good base for fitting the cleat .
Yep, good fitting shoes help. Thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Much appreciated.
Great explanation Paul, best I've heard. Could you at some point also explain if this also effects saddle height like moving the saddle forward does? Thanks and keep the videos coming.
Aaron, thanks for watching. Great question. The more you move the cleat the more likely saddle height needs to be changed. Sometimes moving the cleat, a mm or 2 may not really show up regarding seat height. But certainly, if you slide the cleat back 1cm for example you will most likely need to lower the saddle. How much you lower the saddle may not correlate exactly to 1cm. It may be more like 7 or 8mm so you would need to address it and perhaps try a few heights to see what is best for yourself. Again, great question and thanks for asking. I will put in on the list of potential videos to shoot next;
@@askthefitter4873 Thanks for the quick response. Looking forward to your next video.
Thank u for the information.
Thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Much appreciated. Ride Learn Grow brother
I appreciate the reply - happy pedals
best that i heard
Thanks
My experience is im adjust 15mm way back from your feet big bone .. u can feel the power on saddle & off saddle
Thank you. Specifically for pure track sprinters would you still go all the way back?.
ok so the cleats further back is good, but how to find the cleats angle because my feet is slightly bend. thanks alot
The sides of my knees hurt now that i bought new cycling shoes. I’m new to this type of shoes. So how do i adjust it? Do i have to move it to the side? Do i just move it to fit now my foot naturally hangs (tilt the cleat to an angle…not sure if I’m making sense)?
Thanks for this helpful advice. So today I put my cleats totally to the back (20mm from the old position). What should you suggests for lowering the saddle? 15mm?
Koen thanks for taking a moment to comment and ask a question. It is hard to say but I think 15mm and make a note of it is a good place to start. The main thing is to keep track of it. Let us know how it feels at 15mm. And try to schedule an easier ride and not a hammer session. Allow yourself time if you need to adjust it.
I think that what I am finding is that I've used the same Sidi shoes and cleats for 20 yrs. Changing them now, my legs are having a hard time adjusting. I might just be too old and used to the ols fit to change and not cause any issue with my feet, legs, back. We'll see.
I agree with you to move the cleats further back as I use Fizik shoes and would even prefer to have them a little bit more down but as you said that some shoes have got the three holes still forward as opposed to some who are moving it back down..
I have a question now. Is it normal still to feel a little numbness on a continuous long ride whilst wearing cleats? I am experiencing that and not being able to find a solution. As I said my cleats are moved back as much as possible. I only feel the numbness on continuous rides which are above 30kms. If I take breaks in between or unclip for a longer period or stops, then there is no numbness.
Another finding is, if I ride with my running shoes, my comfortable position is a little bit forward on the paddle, which means that the centre of the paddle lies towards the centre of the foot and i feel no numbness then. I have done 100kms ride with normal shoes without numbness, because you have the option of moving your foot whilst riding slightly if needed.
However, I want to achieve that with my cleats as its very annoying to feel limited on continuous rides. Please advise the best course of action. I am surprised that no one talks about hot spots or numbness whilst wearing cleats.
Also I have Look pedals and cleats with 9 degree float and I have not put any rotation on the cleat on the shoe as I feel comfortable that way. Does rotation have anything to do with hot spots/numbness?
Thanks for sharing your story. There is a lot more to cleat position. Sounds like I should make a video on that. If you would e-mail I can send you some information to review as I work on getting more info posted. info at thecyclepoint.com
Just wondering if you were able to make some progress. If not drop me an email.
I have Shimano shoes with Shimano yellow cleats. The problem is, when I push the cleats all the way forward its still doesn't line up with the ball of the big toe. Wtf.?
Nice vídeo but what about MTB cleat? Same position?
Interesting. I have just bought my first cycling shoes (Scott) and noticed that the metal plate in the shoe actually also can slide back- and forwards. Never hear/see anyone talking about that adjustment. I thought it was meant to allow for adjustment while riding, but then I found it won't slide anymore when the cleats are fitted. So I suppose you recommend sliding that back as far as possible as well? Thanks!
Good question. Some shoes you will still slide them all the way back and a few shoes today you may not necessarily go all the way back. The center of the cleats for most would be closer to the 5th met head. The bump behind the pinky toe- outside of the foot.
What about wheel overlap? I have this issue already and my cleats are much kind of in the front of the shoes. I have right size in the frame and BONT shoes that are little bigger at the toes. I guess I just have to get use to major over laps?
Hello Thomas and thanks for taking a moment to ask a question. If overlap is an issue for you then perhaps that is your reason for not putting the cleat all the way back. Overlap does not bother me, but it does bother some. It may also depend on if there are any issues. For example, if your Achilles is an issue and the cleat back helps it feel better then maybe overlap becomes more tolerable.
Well also with old toe clip and strap if you had large feet you could not put the cleat too far back because it would jam your toes into the toe clip and trying to put one a larger clip if available would then hit the front tire.
Yes I have had a bike or two with teo clip overlap.
How much difference is the thickness of the soles of the Sidi Genuis 10 & the fizik tempo overcurve r5. Both have yellow spd SL cleats with shimano 6800 ultegra pedals. I was told they are so different that it wouldn't be a good idea to switch back & forth between shoes
Mike - I don't know for sure but it is not much. I am guessing 2mm max so for most people insignificant...for most people. Thaks for the call. It was a pleasure chatting. let me know how it goes.
Placing your cleats far back also reduces possibility of heal contact with the chain stays. This was a problem for me.
Yes, it can help with other aspects as you mention. It is interesting that the closer you get one part of the fit the next one seems to get closer and better things appear. Glad to heat it helped and thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Much appreciated.
Great video thank you for sharing. If you were to move the cleats rearward by 10mm and assuming the saddle was previously set okay, what changes would be needed for saddle height and setback with the cleats futher back? Everyone's different but curious what general movements should be considered. Thank you!
Thanks for watching and for the question. You may need to consider lowering the saddle a little but possibly not the full 10mm. It might be more like 6mm. It is hard to say but not usually the entire amount. Generally, seat fore aft does not really change if you are looking at it from center of body mass over the BB. The main thing is lower the saddle a little. If you feel the urge to change fore-aft go for it but probably very little. You can always recheck the fore-aft post cleat change and see if you actually see anything. Let us know if you do.
@@askthefitter4873 Thank you for your response. I plan to give it a try over the Christmas break. I was thinking something similar and only adjusting the saddle slightly forward but more to compensate for the saddle drop. I'll circle back with my thoughts.
So how did it go? @@ChrisCorless
30 years of riding ball of the foot over the spindle, I tried moving back. The most I could tolerate is 5 mm. Now no foot wheel clearance. At 15 mm back the foot really slams into the wheel. Need to talk about that.
Shorter bikes (length) that is more of an issue. Today it happens less and less. Yep, that bothers some people. It never bothered me, but I am not everyone. Have you found a place to work well for yourself?
Great video Paul. Question.??If I move my cleats all the way back, what needs to happen to the saddle height and fore/aft? Looks like I have about 3-5mm to get the cleats all the way back on my shoes.
Hello Samuel thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment and present a question. In general if the cleats are moved back on the shoe you would also lower the saddle. You foot is further away from the pelvis. However not necessarily the same distance. Maybe but sometimes a little less. For example 4 mm back on the shoe may only mean lower the saddle 3mm. Again this is just an example. If you get 5mm on the cleat I would try 3-4mm on the saddle and see how it feels. Lots of potential reasons but most important is how you feel.
@@askthefitter4873 Got it! I'll give it a shot. Thank you Paul.
I also forgot to mention I was fit by you many years ago when you were doing bike fits at Veloworx in Brentwood. I've been to other fitters around L.A. and none where nearly as good as you. Wish you where still out here.
Can you recommend a good fitter out here that fits like you and not with all this motion capture junk?
@@samuel8590 So glad you mentioned it. I loved that place.
How did it go? @@samuel8590
Wow this was an excellent video!! Very informative and I'll definitely share this.
#RobbArmstrong
Robb - thanks for the comment. Means a lot. Hope all is well brother.
Hi Paul, it is great to see you again, pelase share your web site. How can I find bike fit courses?
Hector www.TheCyclePoint.com you can also find some classes at www.bcbikefit.com For now I am just doing classes per indvidual and often online so drop me an email Paul@TheCyclePoint.com
Can you do a video on Midfoot cleat ?
Thanks for taking the time to send us a questions. I really don't think I will have much to offer on that but a video I could do. Warning it may not be what some would expect. Are you looking for something specific I might be able to address right away?
Hi, can you do this with MTB pedals?
Alexandre yes on most shoes that have mtn bike cleats you can move them back on the shoe. Good questions.
I tried this adjustment and it does feel alot better but I still have a little discomfort in my left knee? But maybe due to my shoes size!!
Bengy there is a lot more to cleat adjust than just the fore-aft position. You can check out my facebook or instagram or if you would like to e-mail you I can send some information for your review - info@thecyclepoint.com thanks for taking a moment to comment I hope we can help with the knee
I made this adjustment about 6 months ago and until just recently have had knee and tendon issues that I never had before that. I realized about a week ago, after reading some forums, that I should have moved my saddle forward the same amount I moved my cleats back, and down somewhat. I went the wrong way and actually thought I'd get relief from my issues from moving my saddle back. I actually scrapped this approach and put my cleats back to where they were (spindle around 1cm in front of BOF) and moved my seat forward to where it was, and finally I'm OK again. If I was ever to have issues I thought this would solve, I would do it VERY carefully and make sure my overall position changed very little (other than saddle height which would need to come down with cleats further back).
Which brands of shoes have the mounting holes which are further back?
My Shimano R107 have the 3 mounting holes that slide maybe 5mm further back.
My lakes 331 are very back . I have wondered why...now I know
Thanks Paul, good video! Whats ur take on rotation?
Michael thanks for the comment and question. Rotation is important. Wondering if you meant float? But getting rotation right is critical. Float depends...I am not for or against I am just for what is good for each cyclist. Not always straight forward but usually found.
@@askthefitter4873 Hi Paul, I mean rotation of the cleat to set heals out or in. It make sence to have everything straight, doesnt it?
@@michaelsingh843 OK for most how you are off the bike is how you are on the bike. If you are one toe in and one out off the bike most likely you will be similar on the bike.
When you begin to learn to ride a bike as a kid you have the center of the pedal at the center of the foot, almost below the ankle joint as that gives the most stability and power. If you lift a 20kg dumbell you grip it with the middle of your hand. If you try and lift with the top of your fingers it will be painful and difficult if not impossible to lift the dumbell. The same happens if you have your cleats at your toes. Why strain your calf muscles and spend your bodies energy on them when that muscle are anyhow static and locked. I would like to have my cleats in the middle of the foot but my toes would then lock the front wheel too much. I have my cleats as much to the rear as I can and must always remember to not try and pedal if I do a sharp U turn on a road or I will fall to the ground. When I had the cleats at their "correct" position I often got cramp in my calf muscles, not any longer. Perhaps in the future there will be shoes that has a button on its side that release the cleat from a rear position and let it slide forward and click into place to a position we use today, if that would be more efficient for sprint events. I would like something similar for saddles, to let it slide forward for uphill climbs.
You may be right about the future...we will see
You said it 'helps tremendously' to move the cleat back. I missed how. Why is it more comfortable? Why's it more efficient? What's this do for the rider? I've had cleats under the ball of the foot forever.
Comfort is certainly one reason. I grew up with cleats forward but what data supports that? Just try and see. If you don't like it move them back,
@@askthefitter4873 so it's 'tremendously more comfortable'. :) I'll give it a rip and report back.
SO how did it feel? Sometimes if we have doing it forever you may need to try a few mm for a period and then again a few mm. @@h20s8804
Hey Paul... Hope you doing fine... I do not know what to do anymore... Maybe you can help me... LOL... I have my new bike fitted all good, have a proper shoe for wide foot, got insoles for my arch support... Let me say first right foot all good... Sometimes knee pain but I had an accident couple years ago doing Downhill anyways right foot good... Now left foot... There is no setup that I didnt try with the cleats... Now I have them all back... I can last 18/20km but after my toes start to get numb, and you know kinda loose focus, I get frustrated I end up riding 30/40km tops cause I can take it anymore... And it is frustrating stop and wait, and then resume riding... Sorry for the long comment... Thanks a lot... Cheers Nick
Nick thanks for taking time to send a not. Sorry to hear about the challenges. Maybe we can e-mail and we can send a couple photos back and forth and see if we can make progress. info at thecyclepoint.com
Awesome thanks for the reply... I will send you an email right away... Thanks a million... Cheers
Any luck with thins? @@chefnicoprestia3914
Novice road rider here.. Was pondering something related to this topic.. If I were to go to squish a big ol' ugly critter, I'd use my heel. If I hit it with my ball, I'd feel more like I am trying to tap dance it to death. So why aren't cleats under the heel?
Thanks for taking a moment to reply. I think the best way to find out is put the cleat under the heel and see how it feels. We can share your experience. Happy Pedals
@@askthefitter4873 I legit want to try that. But I think the saddle might need to move back for this to work. But if heel was the point of contact with the pedal, I think the upstroke could get lots of extra power too.
@@jaggedsphere Well if you move your cleat back you already iuncrease the saddler height. Moving the saddle back also increases saddle height. Spo doing both each would increase saddle height. More than likely (if you saddle height is good...IT) you would lower the saddle a few MM. Good luck
How about moving the cleat to the arch position for those who have hot foot when they ride....I have neuropathy due to type 2 diabetes and can't pedal in the ball of the foot position.
Thanks for taking a moment to comment. If that helps your situation that is cool. Hot foot however is often related to foot tilt (a varus tilt - the inside of the foot is higher than the outside). Of course, that is not often mentioned but I am willing to say that the majority of hot foot is due to the natural tilt of the foot. Either way the cleat back from the firs met (ball of the foot) is the way to go. Ride Learn Grow
@@askthefitter4873 I can't ride a 2 wheel DF bike due to back issues so I ride a recumbent trike....when I started riding with SPD cleat shoes my feet would start hurting from ball forward. I had a bike fit done so that wasn't the problem. Others my age with type 2 had the same issue so I found riding in nashbar sandals that had the cleat moved back to my arch position worked....also took the pressure off my damaged Achilles tendons. I wish cycle shoe makers would give you the option of mounting spots...bikers do get older so having that option versus having to drill your shoes or find someone who can do it would be better. I have big feet...15US or 50EU so finding shoes my size is a big problem. I have large flat pedals with straps where I can wear my sneakers or boots but miss the cleats on long distance rides.
I hope you are able to make some progress
@@stevemullin1195
shimano is defintely forward on cleat placment thinking you can adjust your cleat holes up to 11mm forward or backwards
Some are better than others. Overall, the trend is back and back. Even SIDI moved back a tiny bit, but they have a long was to go. Thanks for taking a moment to leave a comment. Cheers
@@askthefitter4873 the newer shimano shoes have more then most as they basically let you move the holes to 3 different spots 1 more forward and 1 farther back
Please correct me if I'm wrong but would I need to move my saddle forward due to the new foot position?
Good question. in most cases I am suggesting probably note. But how much movement at the cleat are we talking? The more or bigger an adjustment in one area on the bike the higher the chance another area may also need to be adjusted. For example of you move the cleat back 1cm you would likely need to lower the saddle. Fore-aft if using balance and center of body mass as the guide...probably not but always a good idea to recheck
@@askthefitter4873 I've been and checked my cleat position ( new to these things ) and it turns out by more luck than judgement that I've put the cleat in the place you suggest and I'm guessing that due to being new to cleats I don't know any different which feels natural. Thanks for answering my question.
@@JDRELGOR Keep is informed as you spend more time on them. You can always try forward for awhile and see and then move them back again. You could hare how it feels for us.
@@askthefitter4873 quick update on new cleat position, I have done my HIIT the hill ride today and in 45 minutes I went almost 1k further than my last attempt with an average of 18kmph instead of 16kmph. It's a hill with 470 meters elevation gain over 13.5k, I only started road cycling back in June and at 58 years young I don't think it's to bad. Thanks for your videos and advice.
@@JDRELGOR Glad to hear and thanks for sharing.
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Thanks for the video. I do though think you miss the point, and fail to provide any actual information. Our feet are the way they are (soft, pliable arch, firm heel and balls, flexible toes) because we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to walk - and run - upright effectively. Our feet work to provide the most efficient transfer of power (effort). So in that sense it is perfectly sensible that the axle/pedal/cleat is positioned over the most significant ball joint in our feet, as that's the one giving the most leverage in our foot. If this sounds oversimplified, try modifying your running shoes so they contact the ground other than at your heels and balls of your feet. When it comes to cycling, efficient leverage is still important, suggesting the 'old' placement is still valid. Under nearly all circumstances (sustained effort, modulated pace.) However, it seems to me that for sprinters, the key power inputs will be the legs themselves, with minimal movement (rotation) of the ankle. And in that sense moving cleats back makes sense, as the transfer of power is closer to a straight line running down the lower leg, and therefore more direct and controllable. How many sprinters want their feet flopping around when mashing pedals at maximum lower? That though is a very specific application, and one that i doubt applies to the very vast majority of cyclists. As for me; i started cycling as a wee lad on platform pedals way before clipless came in. My foot position was a result of realising what worked best for all the cycling i was doing ... and that position became the position my cleats were place when clipless came in. And yes; it's the ball of my foot 'cos i ain't doing sprint finishes in the Tour de France. Kudos for those who are though, or who aspire to.
Have you tried cleats back? I am old and used to think forward was the way to go but hey some might like it otherwise. Happy Pedals
I just rewatched GCN Tech video where they ask pro's at Dubai Tour what cleats they use. I saw 8 of them on video and judged their position. 4 of them were all the way forward, 3 of them in the middle and only 1 of them had it all way back.
There's no way that these best cyclists in the world are deciding just based on some old data.
If you want to be like a few pros you can put your cleats forward.
@@askthefitter4873 That's not really addressing my point. You are claiming that half of the pro's have cleats all the way forward, because they don't have better data and better scientific reports? Because that is my problem - that it's extremely unlikely to be true, and that they must have a different reason for doing so. I think that they probably work with best fitters in the world and each one decided based on what works objectively best for them. They surely didn't do it because the saw in a YT video that it's best if they have cleats all the way forward.
@@trdi Have you tried the cleats forward and the cleats all the way back? What did you find? Maybe you are a pro. Congrats if you are. Pros are tough and can ride almost anything. They are special people. I had to live through the old school world thoughts and worked through a lot of stupid BS but that is life. I have worked with pro teams and some pro coaches that were stuck in the past. Cycling is full of old school crap, yet some old school is cool as well. But if they have data to support a forward cleat is good for them I would be glad to have a look at that data. I have worked with grand tour winners and people that ride around the block. I think I found one or two folks that liked the cleat more forward, so they ride that way. Even most of them eventually moved the cleat back. If they kept it forward that is fine.
What is your opinion about insoles?
That depends. Sometimes they are great. Sometimes they don't perhaps do as much for cycling as we might think but again it depends. I would need more information to really be more specific. Keep in mind cycling shoes are low volume and there is often not a lot of room. An insole needs to work specifically for the modality and the equipment/shoes. I appreciate that question. Sorry for my general reply.
@@askthefitter4873 I keep getting shin splints, a fitter gave me the high arch bontrager superfeet blue insole, could it be the cause? It feels very invasive...
@@DevelopingNL I would probably ask about what other things you are doing for exercise to see if there may be some other factors. I don't think the insole is the cause. Did it start at the same time you put the insoles in the shoe? If it was the same time of course remove them and see how it feels. I just don't think that is the cause...
Put your shoes on with cleats right on top. Cycle for 10 miles. Get home and (if you don't experience cramps) you'll know for sure it's the right position for you. If not, repeat with middle position. If you still get cramps, set them to the very back. Simple huh!
Some old school wisdom.
Big feet here. I drill the shoes another 15mm back
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
Hello my wife’s legs are bowed since birth, actually odd looking, her knees are hurting instantly. How can we fix the shoes and cleat to it will go away.
Thanks for thinking of me. I will be glad to email you some information. I don't really have a video for that but perhaps I should. Please drop me an email paul at Thecyclepoint.com
Have you made any progress? If you email me I can send some illustrations that may be helpful
Forward= more calf involved.most powerful muscle in the body
If you feel like putting the cleat forward than put the cleat forward. Last I checked the gluts were the most powerful muscles. Good luck
“Not a shrewd of evidence” - that’s because testing in cycling isn’t really done. They either skip or ignore steps or they use the top .01% (pro cyclists) as the test population. It’s not really that complicated, the vast majority of power produced in the pedal stroke comes from two large muscle groups, glutes and quads. If you know as a rider how to isolate them, and you have a power meter which shows force vectors, you can actually test this.
I suspect you’re right mostly because of the involvement of the anterior tibealis which must engage to lift the foot at the top of the pedal stroke as the quad extends the lower leg forward.
OK perhaps. I never concentrated, barely got past trying for a few seconds isolating a muscle group. Personally found it a waste of time and energy. I needed to think about the person trying to kick my ass. Then again that was elite stuff. Most of us are not elite or at least by my definition of elite. I am always open to learning so if I missed it or there is something new, I am all ears. I appreciate your taking time to comment. Happy Pedals and Ride Learn Grow
The elite athlete is that rare person who can turn off their reflexes and make their body do things. Those are the people I never have to teach how to pedal. If you watch the other 99% you’ll see a different story. You probably figured how to get your body weight on the pedals within 5 minutes of riding a bike. Watch your average person starting out and you’ll see very little body weight on the pedals, instead they are trying to create a bridge between the saddle and the bars with their spine and arms.
In doing a fitting (that’s what I do), I have to teach people how to get their body weight on the pedals. That means teaching them how to isolate the glutes. There are two large muscle groups that produce most of your power, so I have to teach how to isolate the quads as well. The truth is that almost all of your riding is some combination of the two large muscle groups, but if you know how to isolate them, testing cleat position is easy.
@@edsassler6749 OK perhaps I was not elite enough to get it. Or maybe my coaches didn't think about isolation. Initially I just get the bike out of the way and let people be what they are. I always try to let the bike fit do the talking.
m.ruclips.net/video/5ef3-A6aGyU/видео.html
I work with new riders all the time, the most common complaint is too much weight on the hands, because they don’t figure out how using the glutes puts the weight on the pedals. This is my method of teaching how to isolate the glutes.
Pedaling a bike involves the bike position, the body’s ranges of motion and the firmware that controls the body. The reason changes like moving the cleats back fail with some people is they don’t change the firmware. Using the same muscle firing sequence with one of the pivots moved can’t work. As a teacher I’m working on teaching methods for those who don’t automatically update their skill sets (which is a vast majority of the population)
I go back a few decades on the track, I wouldn’t say you didn’t get it…
Never heard of cycling cleats, but having your feet in a fixed position while biking sounds terrible, for starters if you get it wrong it can create problems (like back and knee pain), also it sounds pretty uncomfortable since you are removing the ability of your body to ajdust to how you touch the pedal. Not to mention it's very dangerous to be attached to your bike in case of an accident.
I understand the 'better power transfer' aspect, but it feels like the negative side is not worth it, really can't see why a normal person would use these, it seems like one of those 'for high-end professional competition only' things.
I'm probably completely wrong, but as someone outside the sport cleats are super counter intuitive and seem like a pretty dumb thing.
That is why proper cleat position is very important. It unfortunately is an often-overlooked aspect the cycling shoes and fitting.