Ravi Zacharias: I didn't want it to be true. And that's the problem.
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Justin reflects on the Ravi Zacharias scandal, his own regrets at not being more skeptical of the famous apologist, and what lessons we can learn.
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I always admire people who can say "I was wrong" or "I do not know."
...unless they actually did know and pretend they didn't. BTW not saying Justin did know
The guy is dead. Preach Christ not the guy.
@@jefreymendiola3862 I believe justice is in Christ’s vocabulary.
Yes he’s dead, but the consequences of his actions have outlived him... example: the trauma of the women that were abused.
It’s a virtue to be trained in speaking that way....by being honest to your soul and to others. I love that too.
@@jefreymendiola3862, how many countless hours did he preach over naive and gullible people?? Can’t people opine for themselves atleast? Don’t be a miser. By discerning so, we identify the real Jesus more, isn’t it?
Certainly, the Ravi scandal reminds me how critical it is that I 'moment by moment' examine my own heart so that in 'word and deed' I glorify God! Thank you Justin for this video and your ministry of integrity!
7:01 "Jesus won't be interested, ultimately, in how many people we reached or how successful our ministry was. He'll be interested in who we became." This is very well said!
and, yet, this stands in direct contradiction to what so many of us were taught growing up. i was told that winning souls was the most important thing you could do. this is the evangelicals' emphasis. it's ninety percent of christianity post-justification. the fact is that the christian world has no sense of itself; it's glaringly obvious, and they're in denial. and vis a vis this situation i'm more inclined to side with ravi given that this is just another excuse for people to not believe in a God they already didn't believe in and double down on their SJW stance. i don't think the church should make any statements that align with their enemies' agenda given that that's the way we ended up in the spiritual and political mess we're in right now.
New King James Version
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Let us not waste to much time judging this man who has now passed away but focus on your spiritual growth and walk. God will certainly judge him.
The problem with many Christians is the valuing of their heroes equally or greater to that of valuing God.
Dead on.
The problem with Christians is they don't question their heroes like Jesus and god.
@@JL0007 How do you mean we "don't question" heroes like Jesus and god?
@@johnbrzykcy3076 we know more about Ravi than we know about Jesus. If you could be wrong about Ravi you could easily be wrong about Jesus. Have you ever questioned that?
@@JL0007 I know nothing about Ravi. However, unrelated to Ravi, I do struggle to understand things about Jesus ( His teachings, words, worldview, etc ). I hope however we are not wrong in our belief that Jesus was the Son of God and He came to earth because He loves us. If we are wrong, then Jesus would have been a madman. Thanks for the comment. John in Florida
"Use our minds critically, even when we don't like the answers" 🤔
I’ve never been disappointed by the results of critical thinking. Real lasting power can only be achieved through the knowledge of weakness/vulnerability.
Close but his actual quote is:
"To question a person, ideology, or doctrine isn't to be disloyal it's about using our mind critically even when we may not like the answers."
I don't think Justin was saying to use our minds critically at all times. That may not be what your post implied but it's what I thought the quote was saying untill I heard what he actually said.
And just for clarification (because I had to look it up for myself), when he says "critical" I believe he means to analyze both the good and bad about something, not to default to negative thoughts or comments.
Definition of critical:
crit·i·cal
1.
expressing adverse or disapproving comments or judgments.
"he was critical of many U.S. welfare programs"
2.
expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
"she never won the critical acclaim she sought"
Yes, because to arrive at reality is to arrive at serenity.
@@sarahpfeuffer1396 I like your observation "I believe he means to analyze both the good and bad about something, not to default to negative thoughts of comments." I agree but I think both of those ideas are difficult to control. How do we possibly know the "good and bad" that lies within a person's heart? And do we even want to know that? Certainly God knows it all and God can "analyze" it but can we?
Regarding "negative thoughts or comments", seemingly we humans love to gossip negatively and make negative comments about other people. Only God can help us control that. Negativity seems to be a part of human nature. Are we "evolved" in such a way or is mankind fallen (sin) ?
Basically I'm asking these questions of myself, because I have that problem of being "critical" and thinking negatively. John in Florida
Evolution by Natural Selection?
How about this : Don’t have any “heroes” except Jesus Christ ?
Even Jesus himself rejects that idea. 1 Corinthians 1: 10-12. We don’t follow Christ as a hero...that creates separation. We follow Christ as those who acknowledge weakness as the ultimate source of strength. Jesus isn’t a religion...he’s the ultimate example of weakness made righteous.
I agree. Jesus is our only source and guide to righteousness. But let's not forget that it's natural to use our brothers and sister in Christ as examples in seeking Jesus further and deeper when they're further along the path than we are. 1st Corinthians 11:1 - "Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ". The problem is when we make idols/gods out of our brothers and sister, which many of us may have done with Ravi
Amen Jesus Is Lord !! 👑👑👑
It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. -psalm 118:8
My Mum is my hero!
@@trishg8852 As an Atheist that really saddens me. You sound so alone with your "lord"
Thank you for supporting the victims first and foremost. I have seen too many evangelical leaders in the US empathize with Ravi and how they have been tempted in the same way. We shouldn’t be mourning Ravi self-destroyed “legacy,” we should be mourning all of the pain his victims felt at the hands of an abuser.
This is not the time to adopt a victim’s mentality. This is the best thing to happen to Christianity in years. I can see true revival happening in the wake of this situation.
The church, the body of believers,is deeply hurt by the deception of the double life this “master” of apologetics ,,whose death has exposed a wolf and not a sheep......lesson for us...look only to Jesus....not man.......for the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked,who can know it.?
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
@@sorrowinchrist3387
I don’t know what the allegations are about Ravi...it sounds very much like a stitch up job (and they conveniently waited till he couldn’t defend himself). Anyone preaching a message that doesn’t involve Vatican/Pauline blood payments...gets squashed!
I refuse to condemn him based on a suspicious campaign...and identical in method (from what you’ve described) to many other public figures. There’s a Scottish politician that got totally stitched up with false allegations here...but at least he’s challenged them and shown them up for what they are...corrupt vipers!
May I ask what he’s been accused of?
You have raised some excellent questions and points. For the sake of Christ’s Kingdom, I pray this conversation continues and true reform is had.
He is not all right about ravi. Ravi married these girls and had the papers with him as his secret wives, So he did not say he was wrong because he was married as far as he was concern.
@@democracyforall Ravi did not marry them. He pressured them into a sexual and selfish relationship. If you’re going to comment then get your facts straight.
When will we Christians understand that a true understanding of our sin nature would never permit us to put anyone on a pedestal?
True
Christianity has so many bible preachers "churches" each one preaching their own "truths", usually something that his congregation wants to hear, or they just go and find another from the thousands out there. - - an outsider looking into Christianity will be so confused.
How can people be protected from corrupted teachings. That is a danger to their souls.
"I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
People can fail but the church (its doctrines/teachings on faith and morals) will always be protected. A bad priest can lead a sinful life, but the sacraments he dispenses (as an instrument of God) is still valid.
Because that goes against what feels natural to the flesh. Also, charismatic people might have an instant effect on you; bypassing all your defenses.
The lesson is that belief in Jesus no matter how strong means nothing.
*"When will we Christians understand that a true understanding of our sin nature would never permit us to put anyone on a pedestal?"* Hopefully never! What an absurd idea!! You already have too many of those!
"Sin nature" OMG
Thank you for your honesty and sincerity, I hope that this unites us all as a Christian family to let this be a learning lesson for us. Praying for the victims of this heart breaking news and their families
People can be fooled so easily now that even a fart will knock them down, unfortunately. The rabbit holes goes far deep than you think about Ravi. Ravi had married these girls with the papers in his keeping. The girls were not five years old they were massage workers and people should know what massage ladies or like or do. They agreed to form the bond and signed the papers. But since they were massage girls they were not going to settle down for less. Ravi had not worked that out. Ravi wanted to marry wives because be believed you could do that according to his teaching. So he went on the wrong adventures, he could not find any religouse christian women who will do that so he turned to massage ladies. Howerver, it was a big mistake. The massage ladies were not going to settle down for less so they demanded more money and ofcourse he refused. So they exposed it all. He had told them that he wanted to preach to thousands of more people so they can go to heaven so the marriage [Signed papers] must be secret because if they open their mouths that he made them agree to this secret marraige [ Signed papers] then his ministry will be finished and many will go to hell. The girls could care less about what he said, They gladly signed the papers and said Amen to the fool. Of course, any one can see they were not going to settle down for less and he was pretty stupid to think that. So they exposed everything in such a way that they simply said he had sex with them and they dare say they were the one who agreed to the marriage [Signed papers in secret [Feel sorry for them they are five years old they did not know what they were doing ha ha, on the other side the girls are trying to fool the masses of people via the victim path, thus they are trying to kill two birds with one arrow]. They dare say that they wanted his money, they were trying to get money from him when he was alive but now he was dead so let us chase his organisation But it is not as easy as that to play the victime game when they themsleves laid a trap for him by saying ok fool, we agree to the secret marriage and we sign the papers but you will know what we want ha ha ha. And the masses of people are basically utterly stupid, they have no idea why Ravi wont even confess because their brain power is too damn small. The pictures on his mobile showes he was looking for the best if he could get them via this crazy method.
@J Joseph Ha ha the uploader deleted my comments because he was afraid of the logic ha ha. I will make it easy for you all. Keep chewing the dead poo, you will get something out of it.
No one in their right mind wants something negative about one they admire to be true...regardless of beliefs. Your balance and call to respond are clear and ring true. Thank you; good video.
"We should question our heroes"... ?
Maybe we'd better question the fact that we HAVE heroes in the first place!
Fair point, but hero can be defined in good and bad ways. To idolize and place others on the pedestal that Christ alone should occupy is undoubtedly wrong. But there are "heroes of the faith" (Hebrews 11) both from the Bible and human history whose faith-examples we can follow.
I'm not sure we can avoid heroes. We need good role models. Maybe it should be more about how we treat our heroes: as fallible humans.
Agree! The Lord should be our only hero.
@@jesuguru2394 Agree. We should keep in mind though that those heroes of the faith were fallible human beings. What made them heroes was that they didn't think of themselves as heroes. They believed that God would do what He said He would do, even though they themselves stumbled along the way.
@Mark OnTheBlueRidge You mean 'hero's' ? Haha, that's how it is spelled in dutch. Forgive my mistake. 😉
Thank you for these reflections Justin. Our church went through a fallen leader situation recently and none of the things you said here were raised publicly by our remaining leaders. Thanks for having the courage to speak up.
so sorry you have been through that 😔🙏🏻🙏🏻
Small world man, was scrolling through the comments to see individual thoughts about the situation, saw your name and was like I know that guy.
I'm a Muslim and we have similar problems as well. I love the way you're recalibrating your thoughts and actions. Common people fall for charisma and rhetoric, because rhetoric sounds good but may not be the right thing. If we fail to be honest & wise enough to see through the rhetorics, we may unknowingly become the tools for oppression and great crimes. May God Almighty guide those who are sincere in self criticism and amendment.
If it makes you feel better than there are many christians who believe that jesus (PBUH) was only a human
@@Mrjohnboy1965 The One Who sent Jesus (mpbuh), sent Muhammad (mpbuh). We Muslims believe in and love Jesus. Infact, Muhammad glorified Jesus like no other messenger of God. We have strikingly similar beliefs if you read Bible and Quran. You say that Jesus is God incarnate, but we disagree. Except this we are the only nation on the earth that's so close. So, could you be more humble if you are a true seeker of God.
@@hasfiz For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace,
Isaiah 9:5
@@hasfiz Hello my friend.
Please just simply ask Jesus that, ‘if He is WH He says He is, to please Reveal Himself to you. B/C if it’s all true, then you really want & need to know.’
He never refuses a sincere heart. He loves you more than you can ever imagine.
And wants you to know His Truth, ASAP.
Be Blessed by it.🕊
@@theguyver4934 No actual Christian believes that.
Christians in name only, sure.
God knows who are His. And who the imposters are.
No one fools the One & Only, Triune, Creator God.
Good to hear such frankness and reflection from the other side of the debate.
This is not (should not) be a debate. This is revelation in living color. Time to examine the difference between WHAT we believe and HOW to believe it. This situation has the capacity to be a very powerful thing. It’s all in the eye of the beholder..
It's all BS. I like how any man today who is actually having sex with a woman, or committing adultery, or fornicating is somehow automatically a "sexual predator"?? gimme a break!!
Just because a guy is having sex outside of his marriage DOES NOT make him a criminal.....a sinner, sure....but not a criminal.
The modern liberal definition of a "sex predator" - Any male who spends time thinking of ways to get laid. (basically every man who's ever lived) LOL
Notice when women do the EXACT same thing somehow they are never called "sex predators"....they are "sexually liberated females" or "cougars"..... LOL.......what a joke!!
@@davidlemaster2034, go read your Bible. Sermon on the mount(Matthew ch 5, 6 & 7). It’s worthless commenting if you do not even know the New Covenant. Such people are not even born again. They are lazy busy bodies who don’t have time for God.
Justin, you said exactly what has been in my heart since this all came to light. Having just completed a Core Module with RZIM, it has left me completely numb. But you have expressed what so many of us are feeling right now. Well said and I look forward to more of your videos.
praying for your faith in Jesus not to b sifted like wheat
Highly recommend watching David Wood’s video on the issue. Very good insights
I agree, I think David Wood's commentary on the Ravi scandal was quirky, original, and offered ideas of how it could have happened and what to do differently; the best I've seen on this topic. But don't tell him, he hates praise! Tell him his video was lame and bland.
@@juliegathman2923 Loving the energy with this comment
I only recently discovered Ravi Zacharias and cumulatively listened to 3 -4 hours of his speaking on RUclips. I was intrigued by his soft spoken and sincere demeanor and how informed he was. So when I first heard there were allegations of sexual misconduct I thought, how convenient, after all the man is dead. But then I heard the news story about the investigation and I didn't want it to be true. I don't think I have the words to explain how badly I feel for the victims. This was a genuine disappointment and my heart is broken for the victims of Ravi Zacharias and his continual behavior. Indeed - "There is nobody righteous, not even one" (Romans 10:3). Many questions came to my mind when I realized this was true. But I was and remain confident in just one thing - my salvation comes from faith in the Son of God, Jesus Christ and the gift of God is salvation through the crucifixion and then the resurrection of Jesus by the Father God. Though this only, I am saved.
Apologetics has become a business, and many wolves in sheep's clothing have climbed on board the bandwagon, like snake oil salesmen selling their wares.
Jesus Son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner
Have mercy on me too. And help my tendency to hypocrisy. Show me the reason why I am on this earth. John in Florida
Lord have mercy on me have mercy on us Jesus
@@DivisionOne_Dalton615 ancke mi Signore Christo
Dalton in Nashville TN. We stand Naked before our Father in Heaven
@@DivisionOne_Dalton615 I agree with you 100%. The problem is that so many of us don't realize that.
I have never been much into celebrity worship, in whatever domain. It’s perhaps a quirk of my personality for which I am grateful at times, like now.
I’d say that’s a definite plus.
Amen to that!
Religion , especially Christianity is big business in the U.S. . Ravi Zacharias was one of many charlatans Televangelists who are able to fool millions of people , to enrich themselves obscenely.
One thing common among these con men and women is they readily refer to the Bible to deal with any situation whereas all that is required is to be a fully fledged decent human being with a conscience, compassion and empathy, the most important attributes that set humans apart from the rest of the animals.
@@lawratify The same problems are found in non-profits, schools, business, sports, governments, as everyone knows. And they all in some way claim a mission to serve the common good.
I find your lack of cynicism disturbing ;)
Same. So grateful for Holy spirit's direction when I come across books or people who are held high at par with Christ. We forget that it's people like us who we put on pedestals and expect them to be blameless like Christ.
Who shall ascend the mountain of the Lord? The man with pure heart and pure mind who desires no worthless things
It’s very sad to see how Raví lived a doble life. On another note, I like how many Christian leaders are speaking about this and redeeming the slander to the Thompson’s, and other victims as well.
He is innocent. They falsely accused Trump as well for money. It was proven
@@boostm3143 Trump was indeed innocent, there was no proof of the allegations. Raví on the other hand is a whole different story. Hopefully you get to read the investigation.
@@ismaelquintero891 its so easy for these people to slander and falsely accuse and destroy
@@boostm3143 Ravi Zacharias’ own ministry has said the evidence was overwhelming and they were saddened to say it was true. Not sure what prompts you to proclaim he’s innocent.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Christian or Atheist, I think we can all understand how sad it is when one of our “greats” fall from grace
Was he truly that great.
@@Ishijah1 I have the same comment. I had heard of Ravi but really knew nothing about him. To me, only Jesus the Christ was/is truly great and our desire should be to follow Him.
Don't try and include Atheists in a bid to lessen the disappointment of yet another religious con artist.
If Richards Dawkins was found guilty of raping women it would not have a bearing on his Atheism.
A man who spent decades conning people that he was a " man of god " is far more shocking than a simple con man
@@holdontoyourwig I like your last sentence although I don't want that sentence to specifically refer to Ravi ( because I do not know the man nor do I wish to judge him ). But what you said, taken generally as referring to anyone ( "A man who spent decades conning people that he was a 'man of god' is far more shocking than a simple con man") is probably true.
Your comments made me think. I hope Jesus, who only spent about 3 years in His teaching ministry, was not a "con man" but a man of god. In fact The son of God. John in Florida
@@johnbrzykcy3076 As an Atheist myself i don't believe in any of the thousands of fake stories that have been claimed over the centuries.
Religions are like the latest video game. Everyone wants to play it until it becomes boring or another better one turns up.Obviously everyone tries to cheat at the game but insist they are playing according to the rules.
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
1 Timothy 1:15 KJV
@Abdul Ali bold claim, for someone who isn’t God, I won’t judge the man, that is for God to do, God bless
@Abdul Ali and how do you know that he did not repent with his last breath.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
@@mishaneswartz I totally agree he may have done.... that makes it all ok then? RESULT for the victims!
@sorrowful sheep where is that quote from?
Brilliantly articulated Justin thank you. I too so desperately did not want it to be true. Heartbroken for all the victims 💔 Love that you brought it back to simplicity of who we are BECOMING - THAT is what matters to our beautiful Lord. I thank Him for purifying His church. He will have the spotless bride He deserves ❤️
I am an atheist and I admire the honesty with which you have treated this subject.
Hi Mildred , don’t let the hypocrisy of fallen men take away from the pure words and life of Jesus
@@rogbec01 Pure words? DID Jesus not call people sons of vipers? brood of snakes ? and say "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple?
@@jonfromtheuk467 he called hypocritical pharisees, and self-righteous fools sons of vipers and brood of snakes. The same sort of folk that Ravi was apparently. Many of us can easily fall into that category if we're not careful. And yes, he did say to hate family, and even your own life... when compared to what should be our love for him and his word (keep in mind he also commands you to love your neighbor as yourself, and to love God). That is the cost of following him. They are pure words, but they are harsh as well. He deliberately worded it that way to make you think.
@@tjkotha7259 my point was Roger and Rebecca claims that Jesus words were "pure" ........ so lets put aside how we can actually know what he said is accurate, its just not true if we take the bible at its literal word.
@@jonfromtheuk467 we can know what he said is accurate if you read the context around the phrases you quoted. It's very clear in the text. But what is your working definition of pure? Is there any issue that arises if it contains a harsh tone in it?
It's "The Money".
Ministers shouldn't get huge amounts of money.
Private jets.
Mansions.
There's virtue in being penniless when we fallow the master.
Agreed 100%. Je Jesus lived a poor life. So should we...
02/21/2021
@Ken Egerton
Pardon me, dear one💙; but it wasn't/isn't the money, but a person's ❤ that is the issue.
Even the Holy Word states it's the "love of money" that brings a man down, not the money itself.
Jesus did not/does not condemn anyone for being prosperous. I don't believe that being "penniless" is necessarily a virtue.🤔
The Father may even prosper someone with wealth. Then it's up to that person to use wisdom or ask for wisdom from the Holy Spirit in managing it to please
the Father.👊
BTW, may the Father Yehovah keep you safe & healthy during these difficult times & abundantly bless you in every way. 💙👊
I thought Jesus had a tax free account set up for all the royalties he gets from sales of the bible 🤔 confused!
If people are daft enough to hand these ministers their money then good luck to these scammers.
Nor should they be considered as being beyond examination and/or criticism if necessary .
Listen to victims when they risk speaking up in the first place
I feel horrible for his children and grandchildren. It's so tragic. I loved Ravi's lectures. This is awful.
...but Ravi never felt awful😢
Ravi Shankar
Please feel "horrible" for the victims as well............
@@lenaheggers8824 of course, its an awful place for gullible victims to be in, esp young kids have to live with all the shame😰
@Damian Spare a thought for the victims & their families.
@@RaviShankar... Gullible? Perhaps vulnerable is more accurate.
I’ve come to understand and expect that the individuals that can articulate Christianity the best will likely be the ones attacked by dark forces the most. We should pray for them.
Definitely! Having lived this, we as the church need to be praying for our leaders daily. It’s a difficult thing for people to hold one accountable when they respect you and want to give the benefit of the doubt. Satan roams the earth seeking whom he may devour, and who greater than someone who is impacting lives and speaking the words of his adversary. I’m sure Ravi’s heart was in a good place at one time, with right motives, but Satan gradually impacted him. I feel for his hurting family and ministry leaders who trusted him. I still pray for them.
@@MrsMamaO Yes, if you really believe in Dark Forces than you know how intelligent and powerful they are. We must expect these falls. Especially when the individual can communicate the gospel effectively. It should be a given to all of us that the attacks will come and they will be brutal. Even Jordan Peterson and his wife were nearly killed by a series of events. Some physical and some spiritual/psychological. Terrifying to watch, but this is the battle and we must be able to discuss it and pray for those clearly being tormented.
@@DA-ik8yx I seriously believe there needs to be an anonymous ministry for ministry leaders and lay leaders to reach out to in times of temptation. It WILL happen and we aren’t all willing to set up that accountability on our own BEFORE the temptation comes. If there is such a ministry, it needs to be “advertised” better to lay leaders and pastors alike. I seriously thought I was strong enough to withstand the temptations because I was so in love with and committed to our Savior. The attacks are brutal and not intended to be fought alone. We need one another. I have a bit of a different view than others might because I saw how it worked and how effective it was at destroying a thriving ministry. I take full responsibility for my own behavior and am reconciled to the Lord, but have definitely been damaged and others I ministered to were damaged. Praise God for forgiveness as He gave David, who went on to have a thriving ministry! I’m just sad that Ravi died with his secrets. He was a very talented expositor of the Word for many years.
@@MrsMamaO an anonymous ministry might be more dangerous. They and we need to pray that they get bold enough to be real and connected to a few people that will go deep with them. We are the church and we need to go be there for them. Don't hold them on a pedestal ever.
@@MrsMamaO yes. We have to start acknowledging it is extremely likely the attacks will come and they will be far more powerful than any one individual. Maybe you are in a unique place and time to start this conversation. Perhaps Justin could lend his platform.
:-( we are all terrible sinners, who need a savior :-(
Greetings from Canada.
I've appreciated your sentiments and agree with everything you've said here.
My wife and I are Indians and we are so hurt by Ravi Zacharias. Millions of Indians are devastated and his sexual pleasure exploits have impacted billions of people around the world. All so sad. The good news is that the Jesus Christ was/is perfect, and his Spirit shall continue to bless. Though we are unfaithful, he remains faithful. God bless.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Bhoj they're allegations you don't know how much of it was consensual or not. Don't judge and live your life for Jesus
@@77solsken There is no reasonable way to deny at this point that Ravi Zacharias did what he was accused of. There's way too much evidence. And even if it did turn out to be consensual, does that really change anything? It was still adultery and abuse of power done in God's name, so regardless of what was consensual, we can all be certain that he was a fraud.
@@alexrothwell2053 Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. I'm amazed you think like that. We as christians have to be better at acceptance and forgiveness. Let the Lord decide
@@77solsken, that’s usually the last resort when getting cornered. It’s not about judging Ravi, don’t you have the right to know the truth?? Don’t you need to discern? If so much of material evidence is available, is it still under a shroud of doubt? Wake up O sleeper, these are the end times...and Jesus said, “Watch out that you are not deceived”(Luke 21:8)
This is what happens when we believe in men, rather then GOD. What will it take to wake us up?
Great commentary. Thanks.
How do you know that you are trusting in God? Is God's revelation not given wholly through the Bible a work of men? Ultimately speaking, are you not believing in men to believe in God?
Hello there@@defect0r1 . Thanks a lot for your much valued comment.
You ask very intelligent and very important questions. Here are MY (for all it's worth) answers:
Man is God's creation. I believe in the power and wisdom of the CREATOR, not in the power and wisdom of His creation. Why? Because anything created is only a SMALL REPRESENTATION of its creator. Michelangelo's paintings are fantastic, but they only represent a miniscule "part" of the painter, in this case, his ability to use paint and brushes. The same goes for Beethoven's music, or great pyramids of Egypt; they are extremely small and incomplete expressions of their makers. They cannot be said to be the SOURCE of their beauty, nor can they be TRUSTED as the WHOLE TRUTH about the PERSONALITY of their creator. They can be loved and enjoyed, even learned from, but they cannot be WORSHIPED, because they have DONE NOTHING (nor can they) to be BEAUTIFUL and/or useful.
- I know that I can trust God, when I look at the splendor of His work; I know that I cannot trust men (species, not gender), when I look at the results of their work (my own included). And so, "the fruits of the labor" instill my trust (or lack thereof). How do I know that I am trusting in God? I "recognize" the trust in God within me, because I am not afraid, not depressed, not anxious, not judgmental, not worried, etc., but always looking forward to the next life experience (positive or negative) as another "word" of God to me, from which I will learn and grow. Do I KNOW for CERTAIN that God can be trusted to do everything for my own good (not necessarily always for my own pleasure or preference)? Yes, I know that for CERTAIN, because over many decades of skeptical "scrutiny", the outcomes of my life experiences have ALWAYS turned out to be "good" for me. That is PROOF enough for me.
- As I see it, God's revelation through the Bible is a "work of men" only in the sense that man's PERCEPTION of the word of God was recorded, and even that would not have been done without strong "prompting" from God. My vacuum cleaner does a good job, but it does not do it of its own volition, or of its own power and intelligence, and thus cannot boast of praiseworthiness.
- No, I do not, and do not need to believe in men to believe in God. How so? Simply because I have never observed ANY man or woman (not even myself) do anything without God's PLAN for him or her. God provides for circumstances, tools and guidance for everything that our EGO likes to BELIEVE we do on our own.
Do I TRUST in and believe in man's ability to fix their problems on their own? NO! Do I believe and TRUST GOD to LEAD and get us there? YES!
I LOVE PEOPLE, after all I am one of them, but I do not look up to and/or worship ANY human being (that includes me as well, regardless of what my Ego prefers to hear). We are NOT PERFECT, and thus our so called "knowledge" and understanding (and especially our "preaching") is NOT PERFECT EITHER, therefore NOT TO BE BELIEVED IN or TRUSTED...
Thanks for reading. Most kind regards and best wishes
@@annturi5826 Ann, you are extraordinarily polite and a pleasure to converse with!
Beyond that, now that I have reached the end of your delightful reply I arrive at the conclusion that you are also most articulate, thoughtful and kind-hearted.
So moved am I by your account that I am not even going to push back on it.
Sincerely, I wish you all the best in this life! Thank you :)
@@defect0r1 , if you can see all that just by reading a few simple words, God must have given you more than basic 5 senses; if you can also appreciate human effort to be loving and kind, God must have drawn you to Himself more closely than one can imagine. How lucky you are...
All the same, if you have something to "push back" on, in my comments, please do so; you would be doing me a favor. God speaks to us through our interactions with one another. Besides, I very much enjoy intelligent conversations. It always makes me richer (spiritually), even when people disagree with me.
Please, do not deprive us of your special awareness and beauty. None of us is perfect, but all of us are beautiful in our own special way. Share yourself. Ravi shared with us his beautiful gifts God gave him. For that, let us be thankful. For his falling short of being perfect, let us forgive. He was a man after all, not God...
With great respect, Ann
Fun fact: The only thing you know about God is from man. Think about it. ;)
"Judgement starts in the house of God"
Thanks for speaking out on this difficult topic. It is very sad and disturbing, reminds me of my own heart, how deceitful it can be to seeking instant gratification and forgetting what the Lord has done for us on the cross. May the Lord Jesus Christ alone be our role model for now and forever.
I happened to read those verses you quoted at the end this morning. A sober reminder indeed.
The lesson I learned from the Life of Ravi Zacharias is to pray for all Church Leaders and their ministries.
Thank you for your authenticity and talking about this hard topic, Justin!
Thank you for your thoughts. Very well presented.
It is not easy to be calm about this, the whole situation is so maddening and heartbreaking, and I'm very impressed that you presented such a wonderfully calm report.
Blessings from Canada ✝️🍁
Thank you for your response!
Like many people I was so shocked and disillusioned by the revelations about Ravi. I used to hang onto his every word when he preached. I thought him to be a truly humble and Godly man. If we the 'ordinary' folk are in shock, then his wife and children must be even more so. The women he abused will never get over what he did to them, sexually and spiritually, but thank God the truth has been uncovered and they've been listened to. Prayers for them, his family and everyone he's let down with his deceit. Thank you for your honest appraisal and helpful scripture verses to reflect on.
Mary Slater....The women he abused will never get over what he did to them?
Are you a prophetess? How do you know?
We can overcome all things through Christ, who strengthens us.
IF we allow Him to & are willing to let go of the hurt & betrayal & cling to our Savior, who suffered more hurt & betrayal, as well as public humiliation, than anyone, ever.
You greatly underestimate God, on His endless abilities. Don’t believe such foolishness.
I speak from experience. And at times, have to forgive & let go daily. Only w/His strength, am I able.
You further hurt yourself by hanging on to your pain.
@@jreyas6263 No I'm not a prophetess and your remark is insensitive to those who've suffered the abuse from this predator. Sexual abuse scars it's victims for life. Do a bit of research on the subject before you utter such comments.
Thank you for your thoughtful words and also for leaving the comments open for all to discuss these issues
Thank you, yours is the first account of this scandal that I have had the courage to listen to. I would only add that we, the unremarked and unknown sheep, must pray for all our brothers and sisters who face the challenges of "fame," positional authority, and vulnerabilities of remarkable success. Again, thank you.
It’s so so devastating 😭😭 prayer for his family and those in the RZIM ministry. I hate that it was true but I have to accept it and continue to remind myself we can never put our faith and trust in any man!! Jesus alone is my hero. Grace is extended to all my brothers and sisters, so I forgive Ravi. ❤️
Any scenario with a reasonable differential in power (power dynamics) between one individual and another(s), needs full transparency and accountability. The risks of power abuse are always present.
Amen.
That was sadly lacking here. :/
I also was wrong. I’m very saddened by this reality. I am mid way through Ravi’s book. Listened to Ravi countless times and was always encouraged in my faith. I have been praying for the family and victims. I will continue in prayer for them. I remember that we are but sinners saved by Grace. Our hearts are deceitful to what degree ? Let’s continue to press toward the mark in Christ Jesus. Father God will take care of this heartache and pain caused by these acts. God bless all🙏🏻🕊
You are so right. Thanks for putting into words that which I've been feeling since reading that devastating report last week. I'm glad you referred to being more sceptical is not necessarily a sign of disloyalty. So often I've found that's exactly how my scepticism has been judged. On the other hand there is also the issue of our own inbuilt flaws that, when we are sceptical, can often be forgotten or ignored. It goes both ways and we mustn't forget that.
We're all sinners. We all need a Savior. I pray for the victims and his family. I'm sure there's more to say; I'm still processing.
It is better to live like Jesus than to believe in Him. Kindness to you
@@112jungle WHAT?
*Jesus is The Way, The Truth & The Life.*
*Life Everlasting!*
If you don’t believe that, I strongly suggest you ask Him to show you who He is.
He never refuses a sincere heart.
Well said and great use of scripture! Our hearts are broken from Ravi’s actions and I weep for his victims.
That is well said Justin. I was heartbroken when the report came out and enraged when I read it. I hope and pray that some type of redemption and healing can occur. Our great God can accomplish that.
Thanks Justin, not an easy topic. We desperately need true friends, one we can be vulnerable too and not afraid when they confront with our backsliding. It's too easy to deceive ourselves.
As with many others...bless you for your plain, honest but necessary words! (You never missed a beat. They will do much good.)
I wonder if we shouldn't be concerned that there seemed to be almost a total lack of SPIRITUAL discernment or sensibility about Ravi's ongoing corruption. Couldn't we assume that Jesus, had He run into Ravi in person, would have had discernment as to who he really was? Is it asking too much that we as Christ's followers should have greater spiritual discernment and should ask the Holy Spirit to convict us not only of our own sin, but also give us greater discernment as to wolves in sheep clothing. I wonder if you could comment on this.
I agree. As a whole, far too many Christians lack discernment. The New Testament has many verses warning us of things like this. Hebrews 5:14, “ But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.”
I think it is one of the Achilles heels of apologetics ministries in general. They can be very judgmental of the specs in the eyes of others while ignoring the log in their own eye. The thing about Ravi is he was a gracious as any apologist I've ever heard, maybe because it was tempered by the darkness he knew was lurking in himself. Apologetics is so intellectual at times that anything of the Spirit is oftentimes poo poo'd because it requires an understanding beyond our own natural understanding. True discernment of character must come from the work of the Holy Spirit, not just your head knowledge of a subject or we end up overly judgmental or blind to the real brokenness inside a person who otherwise looks the part and has all the "right" theology.
A wolf in sheep’s clothing no doubt about it. And we put him there, along with the rest of the wolves. Why?
Well, the idols of celebrity, money, power, charm, “ wisdom” and eloquence.
Where has gone our Lord who chose to be born on an animal feeding trough? Who let go of his glory, and took on the mantle of a servant; and bid us to follow.
Please may we learn, and may we repent- really repent. And apologise to the people of the world. For so badly mis representing Him in public
Ravi’s ministry clearly proves that you can be very gifted yet unspiritual. Spirituality increases when ‘dying to self will’ by taking up own cross daily occurs more and more.
@@RaviShankar... yep dying to self daily is where it begins
Thank you for your accountable humbleness with Christ as your leaders only. Keep it up so you too stay in the heaven bound journey in the world of celebrities the Lord has placer you. Blessings my brother
Appreciate the honesty and acknowledgment when things have gone wrong. It helps with healing.
Thank you... We cry and say... Keep us Lord from falling
So Ravi is in danger of being lost for all eternity, my God this is a fearful thing.
The man will be spared...but only as one escaping through flame. Just like David..
@Mr. C We don’t know this for certain. He could have been a false convert using his head knowledge of Christianity to manipulate and deceive to get what he wants.
@@nateperez6587
Perhaps. But that is between himself and god.
@@mr.c2485 So the cross of christ is ineffectual? I for one struggle daily with aspects of my walk. At what point does the death & resurrection of our Lord lose it's power? Surely if any of us are relying on our purity, there is NO HOPE!!
I wish he was alive to answer to these and for us to have prayed for him and see him restored. All I can say is that it's a big pity. We don't know his actual relationship with God .
Wow I’ve not heard of him or this story! Love this channel.
More than ever we need faithful apologists that will stand up for the Truth, that will always be the Truth, with love and integrity. Let us not back off by what Ravi has done. And we have to guard our hearts and minds all the time.
Ravi is not the enemy. Our dependency on high profile people IS! We will all account for our own beliefs. No one else is responsible for another’s truth.
Ravi no longer believed preaching became a lucrative business.
Sadly, I don't think the broader church has learned our lesson from this Ravi situation, not even a little. As witnessed by the continuing, uncritical denials of any possible wrongdoing by another prominent Christian figure, where concerns have been raised recently (not regarding sexual misconduct but possible financial misconduct). The responses I've seen show me the church as a whole prefers very much to keep our prominent Christian leaders on their untouchable pedestals. It's the same mental defense you mentioned you had. They simply don't want to believe it could be true.
SPOT ON ... SPOT ON.
You SPOT exactly ON the ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.
John MacArthur, yes. The man has been acting much too much like Jim Jones!
This will always be tough. And, what he did hurts everyone: some were hurt physically, and all were hurt spiritually, emotionally, and around what people think about Jesus and His people.
Thank you for this response and this list of what we need to remember.
@Unbelievable? Justin, I appreciate your candor, humility and the questions you have posed. It would be worthwhile to post additional videos or podcasts taking time to address the questions and issues you posed. The "business as usual" (6:44) phenomenon you identified is not necessarily a malicious tendency, people just become tired. There is a limit to how much emotional pain people can endure before they "shut off", and as you've said, many people have been deeply hurt beyond the women Ravi abused. Once the shock wears off, dullness comes in to salve the internal pain. At that point, people will want to "move on", but without true resolution other unhealthy coping strategies take over. These include mistrust, hypervigilance, bitterness and resentment, and black/white thinking. A sustained conversation must take into account this protective tendency of the human mind as well as the short attention span syndrome of a media culture that runs on novelty.
Has John Lennox said anything about it? I think he should. Can you please help Justin? All those who platform ed with Ravi .Ramsden included? Total transparency.
Thanks for this video. Clearly you understand our common problem with sin.🙂
Raymond I read an article where Lennox said he separated himself from RZIM and would possibly work with them in the future if they changed name of the organization.
If I can find that article( I read several) I will come here and post the link.
@@Leadeshipcoach Thanks Mike.
Hell of a thing; sad to see. You're right - good video - we just have to be transparent, own it.
That is Christ's message.
In the Kingdom all things will be done in the light.
Whether we know it or not, whether we agree or not, we are all transparent to God Himself. But to "own it" as you said, is the difficult thing to do.
Best thing to happen in the Christian world in years. Could start a revival.
@@mr.c2485 I hope it does start a "revival." But not a revolt.
@@johnbrzykcy3076
Those who would revolt have forgotten their own weakness. Like all of us, Ravi will account for his neglect and subsequent denial of weakness.
Thank you Justin, this helps give me inner peace.....amidst the scandals.....
I hope the "scandal" ( curse ) of the cross will touch all of us and help us to see the true scandals within our own hearts.
Thank you. I hope this changes things in the church. There are not domestic violence or sexual abuse ministries in churches. Many victims are left to fend for themselves and are mocked and ostracized for speaking up while the abuser is protected by the church. Their charming ways are deceitful and many are fooled. The victim is traumatized and re-traumatized and left alone without any support financially or emotionally. I know because it happened to me when I left my abusive husband for my safety. I now have a nonprofit to help others who have left abusive situations and had their own church abandon them during their darkest times.
Sonserae Designs
Amen!!!!!! I know through personal experience exactly what you are talking about......
Thanks Justin for your thoughts. And thank you for including God's Word in them. The Bible makes it clear that the Spirit and the Word are essential elements in our salvation. This sad situation is a good reminder why our faith must rest upon God's power and not human wisdom, just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:1-5. And why we must grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As Peter says in 2 Peter 3:17-18, "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."
Thank you for your response. It is understandable that we desire to believe those we admire or look up to, but until the evidence comes forth we should not employ a knee-jerk reaction to condemn someone just because they have been accused. Believe the evidence and then proceed. What Ravi did was extremely hurtful to women, despicable and will most definitely hurt RZIM. pray for justice and healing of the victims.
Thank you so much for this sobering video - quite simply the best analysis I've heard on this terrible situation.
I totally agree with all you said. We have to change our "celebrity" culture, but to make sure that it will never ever happen again is probably impossible.
Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
I know this is a serious matter but the way you switched to a really strong Yorkshire accent when you said "devastated" at 00:36 cracked me up
I didn’t notice that until you mentioned it sorry for laughing given the subject matter 🤣
really...what a idiotic comment.
@@CKD3332 Yours was. No need to be a jerk man.
Yeah, WTF was that? A glitch in the matrix. Did he learn to speak posh and make a slip?
I was about to comment until I saw yours, was amazing
I just can't believe this and I'm brought to tears and extreme sorrow. Dear heavenly Father, forgive us. Have mercy. I'm so sorry I don't know I don't want to believe this Jesus. Please forgive me. Forgive us Lord
Ravi was one of my favourite apologists, but I was shocked after going through the report.
That reminded me " It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in men." Psalms 118:8.
Thank you for being honest in your previous views and now too.
Good on you Bro! When i first watched him (Ravi) i had an instinct that i just didn't get him. Something wasn't right.
No judgement on him, he was just a man. i think we need to have a gut check on all leaders.
I actually felt the same. Something didn't resonate in my spirit but I just assumed I wasn't clever enough for his style.
REAL leaders reject the use of names and titles. That’s a red flag.
Ravi loved both.
Same here. I didn’t get the appeal. I found him arrogant and his arguments wordy and non-sensical.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
@@sorrowinchrist3387 Since I heard about all this, your family, and particularly your dear Mum have been in my prayers. Such sorrow, shock and heartache. May God carry you and give you His peace and strength x
Very true. I have watched quite a few videos along the lines of what you just said and I agree 100 percent. However, my heart also goes out to his family who are also victims and are going through unimaginable pain and shame I suppose for no fault of theirs. They might even be in denial. I hope that people who make videos like this are also reaching out to them in love and helping them navigate this mess with spiritual counsel
The family seems to have been completely forgotten. My heart goes out ro them.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Please let your heart also go out to the victims besides his family...............
I too did not want it to be true. I was absolutely floored when it was read word for word to me by another discernment ministry. Heartbroken 💔 is an understatement.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Thank you for your honesty Justin! You are also one of my intellectual heroes. You are wise and intelligent giving every point of view the benefit of a doubt. Your intellect is often hidden by your modesty as a skilled moderator. However, following your show for years has shown time and time again your kind and warm personality, alongside with your aquintance to apologetics😊 I truly hope Im not wrong about you!
Many Christian churches have bought into the modern culture of hyperbole. The “amazing” this and the “iconic” that. The truth is that we are called to be humble. When we lose sight of this, pride takes hold and we slip and slide. We believe the hyperbole spun about us and fall. This is a particular risk for those who have been given the most outwardly obvious talents and those in leadership. Thank you for the unbelievable channel and for these wise words
Sadly, there is nothing surprising here.
It's a man's actions that reveal his values, not his words.
I've spent enough time around religious/spiritual teachers to know that they all have feet of clay. It's not to say that they're all corrupt, but it is to say that corruption isn't far.
Just last evening I saw the first RUclips video about Ravi .. I faithfully followed him learned from his teachings .. I’m speechless I’m crushed .. Shocked to my core!!! I have nothing to say only that I’m absolutely devastated.. I cannot imagine what his sweet wife Margie is going through 💔💔💔💔💔and the victims!!💔Once again Lesson learned 💔
Well said, Justin.
Perhaps these events will be the catalyst for much needed open and honest conversations about the culture(s) that allows or at least makes it easy for these things to happen; I’m thinking all the way from the personal/individual scale to the congregational/denominational and even why not church wide!
I’ve been feeling the need to have the conversation with my congregation....not sure how to start with immediately casting doubt in the leadership....
Well said sir.
As Bob Dylan said, ' Don't follow leaders ,think for yourself, be sceptical and think critically '
Yes, and Dylan also wrote and sang, "I was blinded by the devil, born already ruined, stone cold dead as I stepped out from the womb..." He understood the meaning of the deceitfulness and treachery of the human heart left to its own devices apart from grace. Repentance is not a moment in time, it is a life lived in full awareness of that every waking moment. I know my own heart and it's not pretty. Reminds me of another Dylan piece... Heart of Mine... so malicious and so full of guile.
@@1985Fritz
Many thanks for your excellent comment and knowledge of Bob.
@@iainrae6159 Thanks. When Bob came on the scene in the 60's I was a volunteer in the Canadian Army, so we were a contrast in many ways. I couldn't make sense of his lyrics and didn't care much for that whole sub-culture. But in 1980 or thereabouts, he came out with his Slow Train Coming album and when I heard You Gotta Serve Somebody I was hooked. I went to his show in the old Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto with a church group. Over the years I've seen him live about seven times. I'm about 3 years younger than Bob but I think in over the years we've both moved closer to the centre from opposite sides. His Nobel Prize in Literature was controversial and annoyed some elitists but was well-deserved. I have quoted him in sermons and have almost all his recordings. I told my wife to play City of Gold at my funeral "when my time is at hand" and I know "I'll leave this old world with a satisfied mind". Cheers!
@@1985Fritz
Thsnkyou for sharing your memories of the importance of Dylans poetry .
I agree he deserved the Nobel prize.
I'm more of a jazz man and love play John Coltranes 'Love Supreme'
I am not religious but this work is very spiritual in the broadest sense.
I tend to be sceptical of evangelical preachers like Zacharious who make grand claims for one specific God and scathingly dismiss all the others.
Best wishes and hope you have many more years listening to Bob.
@@iainrae6159 Thanks for that. I wasn't familiar with Coltrane, but just watched a RUclips video with the music and lyrics of A Love Supreme... powerful and deeply moving. I will look for more on Spotify.
It all just turns my stomach. Where was the fear and reverence of the Lord? It boggles my mind how much we can deceive ourselves. What a fraud Ravi was! Dear Lord have mercy on us so we never fall into self deception and self indulgent sin. Deliver us from evil.
Imagine if the evidence for the life and ministry of the Apostle Paul was as good as the evidence for the life and ministry of Ravi. Imagine if we had the Apostle Paul's browser history! How much more so would it turn the stomach if we knew that the Apostle Paul visited the brothel twice a week?
@@defect0r1 that would be much worse : such facts could destro Christianity as then the truths of Scripture would be destroyed...
@@defect0r1 Seems like you don't know scripture for you to make a statement like that. There is one HUGE difference between Ravi and the Apostle Paul=Persecution. Severe unrelenting physical persecution, 30 separate incidents of severe persecution. Ravi was a "celebrity" who owned massage parlours etc. Paul was a tent ⛺ maker who counted it joy to share in the sufferings of Christ. He was stoned, beaten, lashed 5 separate times! Let's not forget imprisoned, impoverished etc all for the joy of sharing the Gospel. The level of Paul's spiritual journey included physical manifestation of the supernatural. I sincerely doubt that Paul after his encounter with Jesus would have had the desire for visiting brothels etc. God sent Him a "Thorn in the flesh" to keep him humble and to not become boastful always relying on the Lord. Itvis believed that in the end Paul was beheaded after serving a prison term for the message of salvation to be shared. When you live openly authentically and your entire ministry is about laying down your life for Jesus, self-indulgence is not a thing that will draw you. In Paul's own words is that every Christian must on a daily basis work out their salvation with tenderness of conscience and self distrust. So there is no comparison to be made between Paul and Ravi. Even David who was a king and committed adultery as well as murder lost his son a result of the murder and adultery. So when corrected and rebuked ran to the Temple to repent in sack cloth and ashes. Not jump to denials and further concealed his sin. No his immediate response to being found out and rebuked was a broken heart acknowledging that he had sinned against God resulting in his repentance. Not like Ravi when he was found out denied and further concealed what he was doing. 1 Corthians 5:5 Amplified version:
5 you are to [b]hand over this man to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Read the entire chapter if you are so inclined.
We have seen this over and over again ministers who concealed their sin denied and lied about it even when caught out. They all died within a short period of time from some hectic disease. It is revealing that Ravi died of a disease in the area of his body that made him seek massage therapy to relieve his pain and put him directly in a place of temptation to sin as well as continue in that sin. He died of a sarcoma found when he went for back surgery. I think those who served along side him are guilty to. They should have rebuked and admonished him when the first accusations came out. Holding Ravi accountable and when he didn't listened strip his ministry from him. Instead he was left to continue. Why did they not hold him accountable? That is the question I have in my mind.
@@yolandesolomons7611 I hear what you are saying, but I don't think you are thinking deep enough.
The RZIM board said, of the the Lori Anne Thompson incident a few years ago, that they conducted a thorough investigation and found no evidence of Ravi's wrongdoing. Were it not for the work of Steve Baughman, the Ravi incident may NEVER have been exposed! Now given that the evidence for Ravi's infidelity is easily 1000 times better than the evidence for the death and resurrection of Jesus, or the life and ministry of the Apostle Paul, you believe that the Apostle Paul spoke for God (1 Thessalonians 2:13), and that a man 2000 years ago was sinless.
@quidam, this is exactly my point! To believe that Christianity is true is to evaluate evidence that is far FAR worse than the evidence of Ravi's infidelity but find it sufficient. When this Ravi scandal was so close to being successfully brushed under the rug, how can you be so confident that a man in the middle east rose from the dead and was God incarnate?
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Nathan
Since RZIM just released their report, I’d like to say a few things. Considering what I heard about the investigators’ aggressive behavior towards favorable interviews toward my dad, their rather one-sided interview list, and the fact that RZIM released a verdict of guilt in December without anyone at the ministry actually seeing the evidence, I just don’t exactly have faith in the process or complete accuracy of the information.
Sometime in December, this became less about the fearless pursuit of truth and accountability, and it became more about the fearful appeasement of the mob and channeling our own hurt through severe judgment. If these things about Dad are true, there was a way to handle this honestly and respectfully without being hurtful and voyeuristic.
I am deeply disappointed in the way this has been handled by RZIM. I don’t know or care who decided what. I just care what the decisions were because cooperation was only ever a one way street. The last 6 months, Mom has refrained from speaking out publicly as a wife at RZIM’s request for fear it hurt their public stance, she handed over dad’s devices (it was not RZIM who did that) for examination, and taken other sacrificial steps at their request too. She wasn’t interviewed by the investigators. It would seem getting as much of a full picture of a man would benefit an investigation of areas of weakness, but I guess was outside the scope of the investigation.
She’s been silenced and sidelined both personally and professionally, with no consideration or help given in return.
My mom was not given the courtesy of seeing the material and “evidence” first when it was finally presented officially a couple of days ago. Instead, a board of 18 people, senior leadership, and even someone no longer on staff at RZIM got to ask questions and pour over every detail of allegations that didn’t even involve them. Yet my mom, who has more of a right to know every single detail than anyone, was not allowed in. After many persistent requests, she was eventually emailed the report report. Something considerably different than hearing it directly from the investigator and being able to ask them direct questions.
Thank you for a reflection that was both self-reflective as well as reflective on the larger problem at hand.
The human heart is desperately wicked. "You will do yourself a tremendous favour if you ponder, acknowledge and accept the evil you are capable of", Dr Jordan Peterson.
Well said Justin! Hero worship in the church is a symptom of our collective social narcissism. It is a cancer that must be cut out for the good of the body. We don’t honor our leaders by pretending they are perfect or special. They are stewards of the gifting God put in them... if we mistakenly glorify them, we may inadvertently be robbing God of the glory only He deserves, and blinding our leaders to their own wretchedness.
“O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of sin and death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
- Romans 7:24-25
“He must become greater, I must become less.” - John 3:30
Thank you so much for your humility and repentance here... This video is a shining light of how Christians ought to behave when we find out we're wrong.
And yes, I totally agree it is a whole church culture issue. I hope and pray that this is our moment to change for the better as the church as a whole.
One thing that occurs to me in the "why" question is that our doctrines of sexuality and gender, particularly in the evangelical world, encourage us to accept sexual abuse as not so bad and are a big force in our wanting to hide the pain of victims and forgive abusers. Complementarianism and purity culture encourage deceit, make abused women feel dirty and thus less likely to speak out, and if they do speak out our preference for believing and forgiving powerful men means they are more often than not shamed into silence. And I could go on. I really think bad doctrine is one of the things at the heart of why this scandal and others have been allowed to happen by the church at large. it's probably not just that but in my view it's a definite factor. Our modern church is bearing bad fruit. So how can it be a good tree? There's something rotten and we need to get it out.
Amen!
I appreciate your self-reflection. We all need to make sure we make no man infallible, no matter how holy they appear, I know I needed to reevaluate myself in this respect.
I greatly appreciate what you have shared!! This is an important discussion and has given us all much to consider. I would say though, it is more discernment, prayer and caution that is needed and not so much that Christians become more skeptical. Skepticism can unfortunately lead to suspicion, the undermining of godly/biblical principles and authority, and can foster a rebellious spirit that can become unresponsive to the promptings of the Lord.
In my opinion, western christianity focuses way too much on KNOWLEDGE (academia) and not enough on the transformation that comes from EXPERIENCING God's illumination in our hearts to heal our past trauma / wounds and from that wholeness be able to live our more loving, selfless lives.
I absolutely agree. Even when it comes to doctrine. Yes the Christian doctrines are true and beautiful but they mean nothing if we are not living them out by loving people.
I think far too often we look to see if a leader has proper doctrine, especially about being saved by grace, instead of looking at how they treat others and live out the Gospel.
I think this is at the heart of what Paul is talking about in 2 Corinthians. He's begging the church "look at how these people treat you! They are taking advantage of you!" we need to do the same.
Also to your point, the power is not in the academia but in the transforming power of the gospel message when we submit to it. The Gospel message is meant to sound foolish to those looking for humans knowledge and wisdom.
Bottom line: many of us are deathly afraid of looking foolish to the world.
This case reminds me of Paul & John's exhortation to the early believers - be discerning in the spirit. The problem is that the gospel of Christ/ Kingdom of God has been much watered down to make it conducive for all and sundry to embrace. As a result in some ways modern preachers and teachers of the bible tend to make disciples after their own image rather than in God's image. When becoming a Christian is an easy thing - health & wealth/ prosperity gospel is a case in point. For opportunists the church is the place to exploit. We have plenty of warning about false teachers & preachers who would come, before Jesus' return, to lead people astray, even the elect (if it is at all possible as Jesus said). Heaven's gate is narrow while the church door is often wide and open. The idols / celebrity culture is so alluring that people tend toward a charming, articulate, and consummate communicator - even when their messages ring hollow. Power, fame, lucre, and the adoration of many is simply too irresistible! So was there an element of idol worship involved here? They were drawn to the larger than life personality rather than the message.
I’ve been noticing recently how much we use the Bible to confirm our traditions, pastor’s personality and focus. It’s amazing that God gets anything done in the messy realities of the church. But he does.
@@davidhawley1132 it is interesting you mentioned that. In the OT, in the book of Amos God sent a relatively unknown Amos to speak out against the apostasy of the king and against the established priestly cabal. The modern church too is in danger of being such a managed and well established entity that propagates man's teaching and programs rather than the worship of God and abiding in Christ as "the way, the truth, and the life".
@April Sim: Amen!! In our Evangelical Churches, we are often taught to be discerning. But how do we discern good from evil? Asking for this gift won't in itself give us this gift. It doesn't come by spiritual osmosis after spending hours in the Lotus position. We need to open our Bibles and do the graft. We must seek to understand it as well as we can, and as much of it as we can. This is mind renewal, and it is mandatory for all Christians. If we fail to do this, then we remain a product of our culture that trains us to love what is evil and hate what is good. The outcome: God remains the caricature that we want Him to be, and even though He insists that His ways really aren't our ways, we prefer to remain adamant in believing that they are. Our preferred solution remains to listen to bible teachers who are ear ticklers rather than truth tellers, and our dependency grows in them and not in Christ.
@@jasoncartwright586 you are right that we need to know God's truth in the bible but it is spiritually discerned. The mind can read but misses the substance because w/o the revelation and insight of the Spirit God's truth escapes us. Note Jesus' parables. It is for those who seek the truth. A renewed mind goes w/a renewed heart so that our life is transformed and thei light of Christ in us comes through. Reading, reflecting, waiting, and seeking the Spirit's enlightenment is a process worth developing. Spiritual growth and understanding is not instantaneous. Paul spent 3 yrs in, is it Arabia or desert, before embarking on his ministry/ missionary journeys. So he claimed that he was not taught by man but by Spirit. I fully subscribe to that claim. Even Jesus himself claimed that he does nothing that is not revealed by God. Also why did Barnabas affirm Saul/ Paul when the Jewish Christians were afraid of the former persecutor of believers? It is the Spirit that endorses Paul's authenticity as a true convert of the Lord.
@@jasoncartwright586 re the church tendency to appoint preachers and teachers who are spiritually inadequate. Somehow those roles attract a certain kind of personality whose spirituality is not up to the task(s). So it is a complex issue... I am glad for your concern for the Lord's redeeming work through his people.
I wish more people and ministries (and in particular Christian media) who promoted Ravi and gave him a platform, would be as open and honest. Sadly, many will just delete the posts, or the web content, without such openness and commitment to transparency in the future. Thank you for this Peter!
I, too. I agree with your five steps. Skeptic to perfection and skeptic when we hear allegations (but stopping before allowing our hearts to sort of "overflow" into becoming skeptic of God and His Word).
That’s what happens when you let bias cloud your judgment! Feel sorry for the woman who got her life ruined when she was just trying to tell the truth.
But God is a vindicator, and she has been!
BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD...THERE TOO GO I !!
Not me! I am guarding my heart and learning daily how to love and respect others! Following the path Jesus prepared for me/us! There is a difference between falling into sin and practising it while deceiving/manipulating others!
This is a teachable moment for all of us who have over intellectualized the faith, and who have demanded at least surface level moral purity out of our leaders. As much as I enjoy apologetics it can only carry a person so far in their Christian journey. Learning about God is not the same as being in communion with God. This can only be accomplished through various aspects of prayer. In terms of the morality issue, many in church leadership have found it more palatable to either hide their struggles or deny them because other wise they will be a pariah amongst the rest of the flock. Many of us give lip service to the concept of repentance and forgiveness. However, in reality if a leader does come forward admitting their failings, we won't even consider the concept of redemption and restoration of that person. I'm not saying that there are cases in which this should apply but we have done this with good men for example who may have been divorced and remarried even when the man did not want the divorce or if he was not even a Christian prior to the divorce. What Ravi apparently did was certainly unconscionable, but I wonder if it is possible that he thought he could not confide in anyone about these struggles and in turn despair took over? Only him and God can answer this question. We as the Christian community need to do a much better job in promoting the Church as a hospital where healing is needed for all of us instead of a country club where only elite Christians are allowed!
Thankful for the 4th and Prov 4:23 stands out, telling me to guard my heart from both negative and positive. I have a boundary problem, with a friend in Costa Rica, who I helped, financially, and has a way of manipulating me and I finally had to set up boundaries. It came to the point where he “owned me” and I could not do anything apart from him, and now I realize I must set boundaries....
Thanks for the prayers, to be firm....
Also it came to mind that I had tried to destroy a Calvary Chapel pastor a few years ago in Brasil, almost akin to what Rabi Zacharias did, so I want to confess this. Ravi did it out of spite and power, and I did the same. Celebrate recovery says to confess our faults to yourself, to God, and to one other person....