Mads Make sure your pick tubes will clear the tank before they hit the ceiling above the tank or else you'll have to pull the tank to service a pick tube problem. Thanks for the extra work you do to share your fun with us!
I've watched all your vid's over the last few weeks and now I'm up to date. It's been a very interesting time and continues to be so. I've been building and renovating boats since the 1950's and I'm still doing it to this day albeit on boats not quite as big as Athena. I thought I was fussy with my work but after watching you and your perfectionist ways I no longer think that way. I love what you do and look forward to the launch.
Looking pretty spiffy! I'd like to see more of your pupper pup, too. You always go to take him for a walk, but we never get to see it. Looks cute frolicking in the snow.
Try to keep the filler tube as straight as possible to avoid "blowback" when filling. This makes an annoying mess on the deck and risks spilling into the ocean. Return lines for continuous spill-back of fuel from the injector pump should reach as far possible down the tank into the liquid. Hydrocarbon flows falling through the air create a static charge which can lead to explosions. Another great episode. Enjoy your time in the US. Cheers. Wade.
Hello Mads! Once again very nice video. I vote for stainless steel one, and also consider putting the drainage with small valve on the lowest point of the tank so you can drain the water. All the best! Greetings from Serbia!!! 👍
I remember the orgasmic routing of the wiring down the wall (all labeled up nicely) so I can understand your level of excitement for the stainless pipe routing [with labels -I hope]...it's winter vacation here and we are all at the cabin in Äkäslompelo -so it was a nice vacation treat on this lazy morning.
Stainless steel tank for sure. The stainless lines are a great idea. We're all going to be bored when you're finally done with the refit, but you could always give Jokull a little more air time.
I love the describing parts. It gives us a sense of what and why ur doing it YOUR way. Sure there are many ways to do it but in the end, it is Your boat... love this style. Great video as always !
Oh what a happy episode for me. From the time you took out the engine I have been looking forward to see a clean, beautiful, dare I say... spiffy engine compartment with its new paint. I have heard tales of them, I've just never seen one in real life. I think your tank design is great (a half dozen times I thought "oh I would have loved to have had that feature" on tanks I've had to deal with.)... just shows what thinking before doing can get you :-) I would vote for a metal tank, safer and your meticulous nature will keep it in tip-top shape forever.
There are only so many people on this planet who get such amazing pleasure from just the thought of all those parallel stainless pipes and perfectly orchestrated elbows but I have to admit to being one of them. Do not let LA lead you astray and enjoy your vacation.
First thought, KISS method: long unsupported suction tubes might vibrate and fracture inside and outside the tank. Tubes run from the tank bottom -up to tank top- then over the side and back down to same level is equivalent to a penetration at the tank bottom and no tube. Shorter lengths and fewer fittings meant minimum failure points. Second thought, consider a single larger, stronger penetration near the bottom, then a ball valve for emergency shut-off, then a single hose (for vibration isolation) to a manifold mounted on a bulkhead located for best access. Return lines must be run separately to avoid back-pressuring each other but can be centralized on a single inspection cover. Don't forget the breather. Really cool idea, the 90 degree e-ball valve could have a rod or cable attached to the handle that you pull from outside the engine enclosure.
I think you are on the correct track with the tank. Consider putting all your fittings on a removable plate mounted to the top of the tank. The plate would double as your inspection access. Any issues with the line connections or future modifications could be solved by just removing the panel sending it out for modification or welding without having to remove the tank. The down side is that the plate needs to be sealed to the tank but so do any inspection access panels.
only one issue there, which would be that if Mads chooses the spiffy pipes.. it's alot of pipes that needs to be disconnected somewhere in order to remove the plate-section..
Craig, you are absolutely correct in my opinion. Two slightly larger access plates, probably oval, one in the rear for the inlet and vent ports, and one in the front for all the spiffy stainless fittings and lines there. As long as the fore/aft baffle doesn't reach all the way to the top, centering them both left to right will give access to each quadrant of the tank. Mads.... If your going to mount the lines down the front rigid to the through fittings you will need to make a rigid bracket 3/4 of the way down the front and clamp each line to it to prevent vibration and momentum from stressing and cracking the fittings or tank at the top. Stainless gets brittle under cold working quickly. So have the bracket welded to the front of tank during manufacturing. Obviously I am thinking stainless tank. I oppose a plastic tank in the engine compartment both on principle (fireproofing) and simplicity since plastic will require a heat shield. Also, if you cannot silver solder to stainless, (not sure) to attach the pick up tubes to the fittings, you could consider brass fittings and silver solder.
I like this idea very much as I was wondering how these various fittings would actually be attached to the tank - threaded bosses welded in place perhaps? Clearly all the connections must be fuel and air tight especially the main fuel suction line to the engine otherwise it will suck air and the fuel system will frequently need bleeding. - Not good in any situation!!
As a Sheetmetal Worker in the Marine industry I vote for Stainless Steel. Also an important consideration is the Vent. The Vent should be the same size as the fill or bigger. This is because you could be filling from a high flow pumping station. I've seen popped tanks because the air could not get out of the tank fast enough. Love your RUclips channel. Have you seen Sampson boatbuilder (Tally Ho) on RUclips?
Definitely mount a fire extinguisher very near or inside the engine compartment. Possibly even consider a bottle with remote activation cable. It's easy to plumb in several nozzles in the compartment so if there is a fire, it will fog the compartment without having to remove any access panels or doors that will feed oxygen in there and make the fire worse.
I am probably the same as most who watch you superb videos in that we don’t realise how much work goes into one of your productions, could you one of these times when you hit a quiet session do a video of all that goes into making what we all look forward to on a Sunday evening please.
Like the tank setup. Just one thing , make sure you put a tee with a plug in it at the top of the tank before you drop down to low point, that way you can remove the plug at high level before taking any pipe out in future at low level in engine bay. This will stop the tank syphoning its self all over the engine bay. Hope that makes sense
Once again, there are some good thoughts here. Reckon I'd go stainless and possibly combine two ideas; a manifold secured into an inspection hatch. I'd also stick with flexi hoses, as far as possible all the same diameter. Although it would not look as tidy, this allows for fewer joins (therefore fewer leaks) and far fewer issues with fatigue and transmission of vibrations. Moving rigid steel tubes about in a cramped engine space in the future could lead to heaps of Danish swearing. Keen to hear what you finally decide on. At the end of the day it is your boat, your money, and your choice. Don't let the naysayers get you down.
Another thought. The engine pickup tube will be a bit off the bottom. But you might consider putting the filter only pickup a couple mm off the bottom. That way it will suck out any water too.
Consider using stainless hydraulic pipes with weld fittings or simply just bend up to the correct shape in one full length. You can use the two 90-bend fittings on the tank and continue via a union into the pipe. I think a bend solution is both better and cheaper than all the fittings. You can make templates for the pipe by twisting two lengths of fence wire with the drill first to get a rigid straight wire. Then bending the wire into the shape you need (just use pliers and forget any radius). Then take the wires to any tractor repair shop and have them bend up the pipes. :-) Usually the bend in a hydraulic pipe is 2½ to 3 diameters of the pipe, but ask the shop what bending machine they have and what it can do.
Mads one thing about your fittings into your tank, you should keep the return away from the intake. You want the fuel returning from the engine to have a chance to settle and cool BEFORE it gets to head back to the engine. If you put the return on the other side of the baffle over by your ultrasonic sensor it would be best but at least on the other side of the baffle of the suction.
You could use your mockup as tank direktly. Just make the baffles, glue everything back together, give it suffichient GF and generous epoxy coating. Shionning uses this on his katamarans.
I think you have already answered your question....stainless with pipes coming down. No reason to go plastic at this point. I really look forward to seeing that finished. Very spiffy indeed.
don't forget to put a bleed plug on the high side of a looping feed line, you don't want to create a potential air pocket, the bleed can as simple as a tee and plug. Just something to consider!
Hi. You asked for suggestions for your tank-material and I like to give you some "mind mapping" because I really enjoy watching your videos. I am not a sailor ... and I am not very talented in crafting. So this probably isn't giving you a proper answer what material is recommended. But here are some Values which really should be taken in account for your Tank and I guess you have thought about it aswell: I would focus on four important characteristics for your Tank-Material: - Durability, - Handling (into your boat), - possibilities to fix your connections and other stuff - price-performance! Steel-Tank seems to have lot's of more durability, you can weld your connections if needed what has a higher durability (and fire resistance?). The handling will be heavier depending on the thickness of your steel. But on the same way it has a lot's of a higher price. In conclusion, the price-performance is higher, caused by the higher durability. Plastic-Tank The cheaper version would be a plastic Tank from my point of view. It is not as heavy as the steel-tank and you can handle it easier into your boat. Fixing your connections could be different from the steel-tank and I dont know how much is possible with a plastic tank. So I would give the plastic tank a negative score in possibilities to fix your connections on your own. In the case you don't plan to remove your tank as often as you are changing your underwear the handling shouldn't be significant for you because you just do it one single time (hopefully).
Dont forget you need shut off valves in the fuel takeoffs, if you don't and you get a leak on the flexible pipe it will syphon out and you will have no quick way of stopping it. I had a plastic tank that leaked where the diesel heater standpipe came out. I had to get a specialist to weld a patch over the hole it was the only way I could fix it. I strongly recommend sticking to stainless steel.
Hi Mads Thanks for som great videos. I would consider the piping for the fuel intake to the engine. When the pipe leaves the top of the tank and will go to the bottom the risk of air in the top bend is big. And this air is difficult to get out. Keep up the good work👍🏻
My 5c, make a single large pick-up in stainless, route it to an easily accessible place and make a manifold there with smaller plumbing. A single large pick-up will be much easier to maintain later on and almost impossible to clog. And if you get a clog, it will be downstream at the manifold which is placed at a convenient place and piece of cake to maintain.
It seems like long stainless pipes are going to be prone to cracking with the vibrations of the diesel. You'll need to make sure they are well supported and connected to the tank. Also don't as others have suggested do a drain on the bottom. If you really want to get fancy put in a pickup at the absolute bottom of the tank that goes to the top, then use a pump to occasionally pump that out. Otherwise all the other pickups should be several inches from the bottom to avoid having them pick up crud. Just a thought but you could glass up your own tank for a fraction of the cost of a stainless tank. The plus side to that is less prone to crevice corrosion and cracking or leaking welds. Plus its easy to repair a fiberglass tank. I've got a 110 gal fiberglass tank in my 36ft boat and its been trouble free since 1973. Poly resin is extra cheap as there is no need for epoxy on a new construction diesel tank.
Just a bit of advice, rigid piping in a vibration-heavy environment (like an engine room) can be a maintenance nightmare years down the line when all the vibration has worked joints and bends in the piping into leaking. It'll likely look great, and it's not going to leak immediately (but if it does that would be terribly annoying)... but it's one of those little things to keep in mind.
Tank - stainless. Fuel polishing, if engine is a common rail injection, you should have 3 filters. 30, 10, then 2 microns. If unit injection, 30 and 10 microns will do. High pressure common rail injection has closer tolerances and is much less forgiving of any dirt, cuts the tips of the injectors in short order. Cheers
Epoxy your box and use it as an outer liner for the tank (shrinking the tank dimensions by a few mm). With a wood outer case you can now surface mount your plumping. Plus it looks cleaner.
Keep up the great work! I laughed out loud when you got excited about the stainless fuel lines being parallel. Definitely going to be spiffy, just like all your work!
I would plan for LED lights in the top of the compartment. This makes it very easy to see things when servicing the engine. LED strip lighting would work great. I would have an LED light on a cord in there too, for lighting those other areas.
Have you considered setting the fuel up with a manifold system, will make transfers and polishing much easier. Excellent video! You are getting so much closer to splashing her! Excited for you
Only thing that comes to mind is that I would install built in LED lights in the engine space, real simple job to do and makes working on the engine a whole lot easier and if at sea moving around no problem having to balance a torch.
Works of art need good lighting to show them at their best and this engine bay is going to be a work of art. Good lighting when doing running repairs in a storm would be handy too. :)
Don't forget to add some water proof LED strip lighting onto the underside of the bottom of the cockpit floor so the engine compartment can be well lit when working in this confined area, maybe a couple of strip lights on each side to light the engine when doing maintenance as well.
You are a legend in your own lifetime - fantastic videos and clearly so much effort on your part to make them . Always look forward to Monday and your next instalment.
Mads, as far as my vote on the plastic versus stainless tank questions goes, I think all the nattering on about baffles in the video says stainless since you can't put baffles into a plastic tank. Of course, you could always take advantage of your awesome DIY fiberglass skills and build a fiberglass tank with baffles - the best of both worlds.
The one water bottle didn't freeze because it was under more pressure than the other. Once you opened it the pressure relieved and the water was below freezing temp
Mads, I love the idea with the stainless pipes instead of hoses, id suggest going with a stainless tank, and having that tank fabbed up with a piece of shallow stainless unistrut welded to the top and about 1/3 up from the bottom of the tank, that way you have something to attach all of your piping to. which will make it look really slick and organized. Also when you design the internal baffles, I would draw them up with a good radius under each of the inspection ports so if you have to get your arm in there you are able to do so easily without getting cut. One more thing, I am not sure if it is in the plans or not yet, but I would strongly consider running LED strip lights down the entirety of the engine compartment, including behind the tank, so you can work in there without holding a flash light. It will also be nice for showing off all of the hard work you have done in there. If at all possible I would also consider having a way to dip your tanks to check the level, or even put in a sight gauge, electronic senders are notorious for going bad.
Hi Mads, just a quick idea for stainless fittings, try your local plumbing wholesaler. they probably carry 316 stainless fittings at 1/4 the cost of marine fittings, same stuff different name. You can get the pipes made to your specs also without paying "marine" prices.
Great video. Either material will last a long time. My vote. GRP tank. Make it yourself at the heated workshop. Consider the layup of a glass only baffel and use your vac infusion setup. Make a video. Consider insulation to help control condensation or use a closed cell foam core. Hose clamp/mount east to epoxy to outside and repair as needed. Consider a y valve setup or manifold to allow you to transfer fuel from pollisher to other tanks. You may be able to polish and transfer all tanks that way. Can a duel filter setup be placed in the hatch/top step area? You know where the u bolts with only one nut and no backing plate is/was. Easy to inspect without removing stairs. Easy to swap form filter A to B, and there may room to change/drain filter with catch bucket below filter/above engine. I do not know much about diesel, but heat from engine caught between sound insulation on SS tubing fuel line good or bad in tropical regions? If so, go with soft lines. Better insulation properties, easy to replace/find replacement parts. Easy to inspect/known lifespan. Easy to keep spare on hand.
Looks like you are having too much fun ;) As far as fuel tanks go... I am in the camp with folks who vote for SS because of the heat/ fire hazards in the engine compartment. SS tank will buy you a bit more time as they tend to fail in small ways over time. Adding lights is a great idea! LED's are so easy! Thanks for the videos !... My boys and wife laugh at me and my youtube friends. Hope to meet you on the water! Enjoy!
Hello Mads, if you're looking for fittings check out "Swagelok" I used to use their products all the time when I worked in the oil and gas industry servicing gas plants and gas wells. Probably a similar cost (and overkill!) but will defiantly look really really sharp and they have just about every type of fitting you can imagine, in just about any size you can imagine. Most of it is just compression fittings on stainless tubing so no special tools required. Cut, tighten, done! And in case you're wondering the seal up really good we used to use them on pressure lines north of 2000kpa no leaks. Cheers! --Tyrell--
Looking at you tank mock up, I noticed that you may want to check the bottom of your tank for prop shaft clearance. You may have to make a semi circular channel for it to clear the front edge of the tank.
You also should add a isolation valve on all your pick up lines, as close to the tank as possible. So if you have a leak it won't siphon drain the tank dry. It's a good idea to have isolations on every thing but on the low pickups is a must. Good luck, fair winds and following seas, be with you.
You need 2 , 1 inch NTP Flanges . One for each side of the plastic tank wall.That's to make a strong connection for your 1 inch 90 degree elbow. I would add some ball valves where ever they would be handy in the future , like for fuel transferring . I would rent or buy a roller bender to make nice bends on the stainless tubes.
It might be a good idea to put your fuel pickup through your inspection plate or through a smaller inspection plate. My old Military truck is done this way and so is the screen on the pickup foot fits in, but it also makes it easy to service or modify, the fuel gauge sender is mounted through a similar 4" inspection plate.
On the low end of your tank install a remote valve to drain once or so a year. You can gravity drain or suck out with a pump. sS Flex fuel line and a 1/4 valve will do.
Mads, I know you bought screwed stainless fittings. I have put in a lot of stainless pipe. The point being the location of the fittings if there is a leak it is a very hard place to work. I would suggest that all your pipe be welded up to the hose connection. Fuel oil is one of hardest from my experience of all liquid to prevent leaks in screwed pipe especially stainless. If you insist on screwed pipe this the trick I have learned. First put anti seize on the thread and then tape with Teflon tape then anti seize over that. The reason being stainless threads have a tendency to gall and when they do it is almost impossible to stop a leak. With the price of fittings and having to replace one because of galling and the absolute lack of leaks welding is the preferred way to go.
2 things Mads: 1.) If you decide to go with a non stainless steel tank, be aware of the difference in thermal expansion coefficient between your tank material and the steel pipes. If the pipes are mounted rigidly to the take, that might generate problems. 2.) In case your stainless steel fittings will be bolted on to the tank with a threaded nut (inside the tank), remember to keep enough distance from the edge of the tank so you have enough space so that you can tighten the nuts with tools (wrenches, ratchets).
Stainless steel from Canada. It gives me that good feeling seeing you wear the right mask for the job. I represented labor and saw many injuries from not using safety equipment.
Sail Life is pretty much a major highlight of my Sunday afternoon. Thanks, man! edit: for all of us imperial guys 140 L = 36.9841 gallons, -7 Celsius = 19.4 Fahrenheit, $70 for a few fittings is WTF? lol and uden brus on the water bottle is without sparkles :P
remember rigid steel tubing will not flex and will be under continuous vibration, it will look nice but could be problematic in time. fuel hose properly clamped will be neat not be susceptible to cracking.
Another awesome video. You do such nice work. That prototype fuel tank is absolutely brilliant and I think you probably saved yourself a lot of time in the end as well as had fun building a sweet wooden box. You absolutely know it is going to fit into the engine compartment and through the companionway opening. You might want to think about adding a dedicated water pumpout tube that goes to the absolute lowest point of the tank. You could set this up to draw a quick sample from the bottom to check for any water or sediment without needing to open up an inspection port. You could set up a crossover between this and your polish circuit so you could draw any sediment at the bottom out as you polish. I have a polish system I built myself out of an extra Racor 500 filter and a 60GPH 12v electric Carter inline fuel pump. Hallberg-Rassey 35 Rasmuses came with such an extra low-point fuel draw tube and I'm using that port to feed my polish system so when I polish I'm always drawing off of the lower sump in my keel tank. The drawback of this is if there is any water in the system it's going to end up in the racor bowl. A little bit will be OK and can be easily drained out of the bowl. If it is more than a cup or so then it's going to get into the filter media and shut down the polishing circuit when the filter collapses. As long as I never let any water get in and keep my vent from sucking seawater from the transom it will never be a problem. My polishing circuit has two bypasses so I can pull in fuel from a separate container like a jerry can from the input, and also bypass so I can pump out to another separate container. I can do either or and even both (use the polisher to polish a 5-gallon jerry can, or even someone else's boat/tank if I have long enough hoses. I'm using quick-disconnect fuel connectors to hook into the polishing system and simple tank selector 3-way valves. This way I can easily feed fuel in from Jerry cans and know that the fuel going into my tank went through a known good filter of my own in the polishing racor. If I am ever anywhere that I don't trust the fuel I can just fill up jerry cans and simply fill the tank that way. If I trust the fuel I can just fill it into the deck fill. I could also fill the tank from jerry cans right from the dingy and never have to lift them into the boat too if am transporting them to the boat from shore.
Stainless is a good idea. Runs of tubing will need to be secured with cushion clamps. Your point of weakness will be where a fitting is holding a stretch of tube. The more solid tube the more workhardening vibs transferred to the weld. This won't be an issue if you use enough cushion clamps. What if you still did your stainless idea along the wall, then use flex lines making large diameter circles down the tank. They would absorbe vibration and still look cool. Think upside down rainbow but black. 1 set of cushion clamps would be plenty to secure them. And... you could carry a hose or two the longer length for back up. Maybe even color code.... ohhhhh
Instead of multiple pickup lines running down the side, just one fuel pickup line with a manifold mounted to the front, this will allow a single shutoff valve to the entire fuel supply system, shutting off everything coming out of the tank. And a single manifold for the return. This may clean up the engine room area much better then a row of pipes and elbows. Also with multiple elbows consider how they all assemble and how much room is necessary to attach and detach fittings.
Love your video channel keep up the good work. My suggestion would be to run the piping out the starboard side of the tank/engine compartment. You then can mount shut off valves and have easier access to them. This would also be a good place for your fuel filters they can be mounted on the bulkhead wall. Finally put some magnets in the bottom of the tank to pick up any metal shavings. Oh and if you are thinking about a plastic tank ask if there will be any heat issues. The tank Mounted that close to the diesel engine its going to get hot in there. Signed Tom, Minnesota USA
Hey Mads! I am constantly impressed with your extreme attention to detail! I love the idea of the stainless steel pipes and the angle you’ll have them running all nice and neat. Keep up the good work. Definitely looking forward to the finished product. Btw, it wasn’t too much yammering. Planning and building prototypes to make sure your absolutely happy with your boat is worth it!
I have two points, 1.all the pipes are going to be hidden by the engine so it will not matter if they are stainless or flexible hoses, 2.stainless will be much harder to fix at sea in an emergency if they start leaking through vibration, where as if a flexible hose starts leaking it is much easier to replace it.
"What is time but currency to have fun." Well put, Mads. Well put.
Mads,
Mount work lights in the engine compartment so you don't have to carry a flashlight when working on the engine. It was a great add to my
boat.
This is a brilliant idea. I second this.
It really is a great idea. I installed string LEDs around the top. I was going to install a few spots, but the string LEDs are really bright.
I have a fan in the engine room and a light on a spiral cord that stretches throughout the engine room. Stopcocks are present on all fuel lines.
Mads
Make sure your pick tubes will clear the tank before they hit the ceiling above the tank or else you'll have to pull the tank to service a pick tube problem. Thanks for the extra work you do to share your fun with us!
God I love a clean engine compartment. Nothing better for seeing what is going on in there.
I've watched all your vid's over the last few weeks and now I'm up to date. It's been a very interesting time and continues to be so. I've been building and renovating boats since the 1950's and I'm still doing it to this day albeit on boats not quite as big as Athena. I thought I was fussy with my work but after watching you and your perfectionist ways I no longer think that way. I love what you do and look forward to the launch.
Whatever you decide, I for one believe it will be pretty dang spiffy. Can't wait to see the result. Keep up the great work.
Looking pretty spiffy! I'd like to see more of your pupper pup, too. You always go to take him for a walk, but we never get to see it. Looks cute frolicking in the snow.
I don't get how anyone can dislike a video that promises ocd neat stainless steal fuel pipes, it is gonna be Frickin Awesome
OCD neat stainless steel fuel pipes - Love that line !
Love your OCD 😻 you are right, the tubes will look much better and I absolutely get your enthusiasm about it 👍
Try to keep the filler tube as straight as possible to avoid "blowback" when filling. This makes an annoying mess on the deck and risks spilling into the ocean.
Return lines for continuous spill-back of fuel from the injector pump should reach as far possible down the tank into the liquid. Hydrocarbon flows falling through the air create a static charge which can lead to explosions.
Another great episode. Enjoy your time in the US.
Cheers.
Wade.
Hello Mads! Once again very nice video. I vote for stainless steel one, and also consider putting the drainage with small valve on the lowest point of the tank so you can drain the water. All the best!
Greetings from Serbia!!! 👍
I remember the orgasmic routing of the wiring down the wall (all labeled up nicely) so I can understand your level of excitement for the stainless pipe routing [with labels -I hope]...it's winter vacation here and we are all at the cabin in Äkäslompelo -so it was a nice vacation treat on this lazy morning.
Stainless steel tank for sure. The stainless lines are a great idea. We're all going to be bored when you're finally done with the refit, but you could always give Jokull a little more air time.
I love the describing parts. It gives us a sense of what and why ur doing it YOUR way. Sure there are many ways to do it but in the end, it is Your boat... love this style. Great video as always !
Oh what a happy episode for me. From the time you took out the engine I have been looking forward to see a clean, beautiful, dare I say... spiffy engine compartment with its new paint. I have heard tales of them, I've just never seen one in real life. I think your tank design is great (a half dozen times I thought "oh I would have loved to have had that feature" on tanks I've had to deal with.)... just shows what thinking before doing can get you :-) I would vote for a metal tank, safer and your meticulous nature will keep it in tip-top shape forever.
I was missing your pooch. Good to see him.
There are only so many people on this planet who get such amazing pleasure from just the thought of all those parallel stainless pipes and perfectly orchestrated elbows but I have to admit to being one of them. Do not let LA lead you astray and enjoy your vacation.
First thought, KISS method: long unsupported suction tubes might vibrate and fracture inside and outside the tank. Tubes run from the tank bottom -up to tank top- then over the side and back down to same level is equivalent to a penetration at the tank bottom and no tube. Shorter lengths and fewer fittings meant minimum failure points.
Second thought, consider a single larger, stronger penetration near the bottom, then a ball valve for emergency shut-off, then a single hose (for vibration isolation) to a manifold mounted on a bulkhead located for best access. Return lines must be run separately to avoid back-pressuring each other but can be centralized on a single inspection cover. Don't forget the breather.
Really cool idea, the 90 degree e-ball valve could have a rod or cable attached to the handle that you pull from outside the engine enclosure.
I think you are on the correct track with the tank. Consider putting all your fittings on a removable plate mounted to the top of the tank. The plate would double as your inspection access. Any issues with the line connections or future modifications could be solved by just removing the panel sending it out for modification or welding without having to remove the tank. The down side is that the plate needs to be sealed to the tank but so do any inspection access panels.
Craig S oh, like that idea! Well thought of!!
only one issue there, which would be that if Mads chooses the spiffy pipes.. it's alot of pipes that needs to be disconnected somewhere in order to remove the plate-section..
Johannes, yeah but how often would he have to do that?
Craig, you are absolutely correct in my opinion. Two slightly larger access plates, probably oval, one in the rear for the inlet and vent ports, and one in the front for all the spiffy stainless fittings and lines there. As long as the fore/aft baffle doesn't reach all the way to the top, centering them both left to right will give access to each quadrant of the tank. Mads.... If your going to mount the lines down the front rigid to the through fittings you will need to make a rigid bracket 3/4 of the way down the front and clamp each line to it to prevent vibration and momentum from stressing and cracking the fittings or tank at the top. Stainless gets brittle under cold working quickly. So have the bracket welded to the front of tank during manufacturing. Obviously I am thinking stainless tank. I oppose a plastic tank in the engine compartment both on principle (fireproofing) and simplicity since plastic will require a heat shield. Also, if you cannot silver solder to stainless, (not sure) to attach the pick up tubes to the fittings, you could consider brass fittings and silver solder.
I like this idea very much as I was wondering how these various fittings would actually be attached to the tank - threaded bosses welded in place perhaps? Clearly all the connections must be fuel and air tight especially the main fuel suction line to the engine otherwise it will suck air and the fuel system will frequently need bleeding. - Not good in any situation!!
As a Sheetmetal Worker in the Marine industry I vote for Stainless Steel. Also an important consideration is the Vent. The Vent should be the same size as the fill or bigger. This is because you could be filling from a high flow pumping station. I've seen popped tanks because the air could not get out of the tank fast enough.
Love your RUclips channel. Have you seen Sampson boatbuilder (Tally Ho) on RUclips?
Definitely mount a fire extinguisher very near or inside the engine compartment. Possibly even consider a bottle with remote activation cable. It's easy to plumb in several nozzles in the compartment so if there is a fire, it will fog the compartment without having to remove any access panels or doors that will feed oxygen in there and make the fire worse.
I vote that you make it out of which ever material makes the most sense to you. I think you're doing a spiffy job Mads, keep up the good work.
I'm anxious to see the finale. Looking good.
Stainless, better for fire, quieter...give yourself a great LED spot light(s) right above your inspection ports. Keep being awesome
I am probably the same as most who watch you superb videos in that we don’t realise how much work goes into one of your productions, could you one of these times when you hit a quiet session do a video of all that goes into making what we all look forward to on a Sunday evening please.
Like the tank setup. Just one thing , make sure you put a tee with a plug in it at the top of the tank before you drop down to low point, that way you can remove the plug at high level before taking any pipe out in future at low level in engine bay. This will stop the tank syphoning its self all over the engine bay. Hope that makes sense
it is 2021, I've just watched all of your videos up to this point. Great work Mads! im learning a lot from these!!! Thank you so much!
You my Friend, are a joy to watch. Thank you.
Love the idea of hard fuel lines as far as you can go and just a short flex line. Much less prone to damage.
Once again, there are some good thoughts here. Reckon I'd go stainless and possibly combine two ideas; a manifold secured into an inspection hatch. I'd also stick with flexi hoses, as far as possible all the same diameter. Although it would not look as tidy, this allows for fewer joins (therefore fewer leaks) and far fewer issues with fatigue and transmission of vibrations. Moving rigid steel tubes about in a cramped engine space in the future could lead to heaps of Danish swearing. Keen to hear what you finally decide on. At the end of the day it is your boat, your money, and your choice. Don't let the naysayers get you down.
Ohhh, Mads! You are overdoinge most of your work....And i love it. Pleace go on the same way.
I do enjoy your yammering on about spiffy looking stainless steel piping.
Another thought. The engine pickup tube will be a bit off the bottom. But you might consider putting the filter only pickup a couple mm off the bottom. That way it will suck out any water too.
Consider using stainless hydraulic pipes with weld fittings or simply just bend up to the correct shape in one full length. You can use the two 90-bend fittings on the tank and continue via a union into the pipe.
I think a bend solution is both better and cheaper than all the fittings.
You can make templates for the pipe by twisting two lengths of fence wire with the drill first to get a rigid straight wire. Then bending the wire into the shape you need (just use pliers and forget any radius). Then take the wires to any tractor repair shop and have them bend up the pipes. :-)
Usually the bend in a hydraulic pipe is 2½ to 3 diameters of the pipe, but ask the shop what bending machine they have and what it can do.
“Pretty Freakin Spiffy!” Mads, I love your excitement! It made my day. Keep up the good work brother!
The tank is going to be within top 10 of the 10 most beautiful tanks ever...
Mads one thing about your fittings into your tank, you should keep the return away from the intake. You want the fuel returning from the engine to have a chance to settle and cool BEFORE it gets to head back to the engine. If you put the return on the other side of the baffle over by your ultrasonic sensor it would be best but at least on the other side of the baffle of the suction.
You could use your mockup as tank direktly. Just make the baffles, glue everything back together, give it suffichient GF and generous epoxy coating. Shionning uses this on his katamarans.
Loved this video. It's not what I want all the time, but all the talk about cable/hose management... A+ ... #OCDLove
I think you have already answered your question....stainless with pipes coming down. No reason to go plastic at this point. I really look forward to seeing that finished. Very spiffy indeed.
don't forget to put a bleed plug on the high side of a looping feed line, you don't want to create a potential air pocket, the bleed can as simple as a tee and plug. Just something to consider!
oops sorry wrong advise this would only apply to a pressured line
Hi. You asked for suggestions for your tank-material and I like to give you some "mind mapping" because I really enjoy watching your videos. I am not a sailor ... and I am not very talented in crafting. So this probably isn't giving you a proper answer what material is recommended. But here are some Values which really should be taken in account for your Tank and I guess you have thought about it aswell:
I would focus on four important characteristics for your Tank-Material:
- Durability,
- Handling (into your boat),
- possibilities to fix your connections and other stuff
- price-performance!
Steel-Tank
seems to have lot's of more durability, you can weld your connections if needed what has a higher durability (and fire resistance?). The handling will be heavier depending on the thickness of your steel. But on the same way it has a lot's of a higher price. In conclusion, the price-performance is higher, caused by the higher durability.
Plastic-Tank
The cheaper version would be a plastic Tank from my point of view. It is not as heavy as the steel-tank and you can handle it easier into your boat. Fixing your connections could be different from the steel-tank and I dont know how much is possible with a plastic tank. So I would give the plastic tank a negative score in possibilities to fix your connections on your own. In the case you don't plan to remove your tank as often as you are changing your underwear the handling shouldn't be significant for you because you just do it one single time (hopefully).
Looks like a great tank design to me.
Dont forget you need shut off valves in the fuel takeoffs, if you don't and you get a leak on the flexible pipe it will syphon out and you will have no quick way of stopping it.
I had a plastic tank that leaked where the diesel heater standpipe came out. I had to get a specialist to weld a patch over the hole it was the only way I could fix it. I strongly recommend sticking to stainless steel.
Hi Mads
Thanks for som great videos.
I would consider the piping for the fuel intake to the engine. When the pipe leaves the top of the tank and will go to the bottom the risk of air in the top bend is big. And this air is difficult to get out.
Keep up the good work👍🏻
Love this channel. Consider learning stainless steel welding with tig! Its cheaper and can be learnt in a weekend.
My 5c, make a single large pick-up in stainless, route it to an easily accessible place and make a manifold there with smaller plumbing. A single large pick-up will be much easier to maintain later on and almost impossible to clog. And if you get a clog, it will be downstream at the manifold which is placed at a convenient place and piece of cake to maintain.
My vote is on the stainless steel tank with the stainless steel fuel line plumming. as always leaved a like as i do enjoy these videos a lot !!
It seems like long stainless pipes are going to be prone to cracking with the vibrations of the diesel. You'll need to make sure they are well supported and connected to the tank. Also don't as others have suggested do a drain on the bottom. If you really want to get fancy put in a pickup at the absolute bottom of the tank that goes to the top, then use a pump to occasionally pump that out. Otherwise all the other pickups should be several inches from the bottom to avoid having them pick up crud.
Just a thought but you could glass up your own tank for a fraction of the cost of a stainless tank. The plus side to that is less prone to crevice corrosion and cracking or leaking welds. Plus its easy to repair a fiberglass tank. I've got a 110 gal fiberglass tank in my 36ft boat and its been trouble free since 1973. Poly resin is extra cheap as there is no need for epoxy on a new construction diesel tank.
Just a bit of advice, rigid piping in a vibration-heavy environment (like an engine room) can be a maintenance nightmare years down the line when all the vibration has worked joints and bends in the piping into leaking. It'll likely look great, and it's not going to leak immediately (but if it does that would be terribly annoying)... but it's one of those little things to keep in mind.
Tank - stainless. Fuel polishing, if engine is a common rail injection, you should have 3 filters. 30, 10, then 2 microns. If unit injection, 30 and 10 microns will do. High pressure common rail injection has closer tolerances and is much less forgiving of any dirt, cuts the tips of the injectors in short order.
Cheers
Epoxy your box and use it as an outer liner for the tank (shrinking the tank dimensions by a few mm). With a wood outer case you can now surface mount your plumping. Plus it looks cleaner.
I was surprised at not seeing baffles to stop fuel starvation in a rolling sea and quiet sloshing sounds in the old tank.
You can use your fancy heat shrink labeler and label your stainless steel lines.
Keep up the great work! I laughed out loud when you got excited about the stainless fuel lines being parallel. Definitely going to be spiffy, just like all your work!
I think your a genius! I think the way you planned out that diesel tank was awesome.
If you go with a SStank you could have clamps for the SS tubes. Keeping it looking clean.
I would plan for LED lights in the top of the compartment. This makes it very easy to see things when servicing the engine. LED strip lighting would work great. I would have an LED light on a cord in there too, for lighting those other areas.
Like the idea, it's going to look like a real professional working boat engine bay, nice one Mads 👍😆.
Have you considered setting the fuel up with a manifold system, will make transfers and polishing much easier. Excellent video! You are getting so much closer to splashing her! Excited for you
Only thing that comes to mind is that I would install built in LED lights in the engine space, real simple job to do and makes working on the engine a whole lot easier and if at sea moving around no problem having to balance a torch.
Works of art need good lighting to show them at their best and this engine bay is going to be a work of art. Good lighting when doing running repairs in a storm would be handy too. :)
Mads, you might consider vibration supports on the pipes running down the front of the fuel tank.
Don't forget to add some water proof LED strip lighting onto the underside of the bottom of the cockpit floor so the engine compartment can be well lit when working in this confined area, maybe a couple of strip lights on each side to light the engine when doing maintenance as well.
You are a legend in your own lifetime - fantastic videos and clearly so much effort on your part to make them . Always look forward to Monday and your next instalment.
Mads, as far as my vote on the plastic versus stainless tank questions goes, I think all the nattering on about baffles in the video says stainless since you can't put baffles into a plastic tank. Of course, you could always take advantage of your awesome DIY fiberglass skills and build a fiberglass tank with baffles - the best of both worlds.
The one water bottle didn't freeze because it was under more pressure than the other. Once you opened it the pressure relieved and the water was below freezing temp
Mads, I love the idea with the stainless pipes instead of hoses, id suggest going with a stainless tank, and having that tank fabbed up with a piece of shallow stainless unistrut welded to the top and about 1/3 up from the bottom of the tank, that way you have something to attach all of your piping to. which will make it look really slick and organized.
Also when you design the internal baffles, I would draw them up with a good radius under each of the inspection ports so if you have to get your arm in there you are able to do so easily without getting cut.
One more thing, I am not sure if it is in the plans or not yet, but I would strongly consider running LED strip lights down the entirety of the engine compartment, including behind the tank, so you can work in there without holding a flash light. It will also be nice for showing off all of the hard work you have done in there.
If at all possible I would also consider having a way to dip your tanks to check the level, or even put in a sight gauge, electronic senders are notorious for going bad.
Don't forget a dip tube on the fuel polishing line.
Hey Mads, everyone loves some stainless steel, but don't go overboard! (pun intended)
This diesel tank project reminds me of the electrical closet!
I love the idea of ss for your tank.
Hi Mads, just a quick idea for stainless fittings, try your local plumbing wholesaler. they probably carry 316 stainless fittings at 1/4 the cost of marine fittings, same stuff different name. You can get the pipes made to your specs also without paying "marine" prices.
Great video. Either material will last a long time. My vote.
GRP tank. Make it yourself at the heated workshop. Consider the layup of a glass only baffel and use your vac infusion setup. Make a video. Consider insulation to help control condensation or use a closed cell foam core. Hose clamp/mount east to epoxy to outside and repair as needed.
Consider a y valve setup or manifold to allow you to transfer fuel from pollisher to other tanks. You may be able to polish and transfer all tanks that way.
Can a duel filter setup be placed in the hatch/top step area? You know where the u bolts with only one nut and no backing plate is/was. Easy to inspect without removing stairs. Easy to swap form filter A to B, and there may room to change/drain filter with catch bucket below filter/above engine.
I do not know much about diesel, but heat from engine caught between sound insulation on SS tubing fuel line good or bad in tropical regions? If so, go with soft lines. Better insulation properties, easy to replace/find replacement parts. Easy to inspect/known lifespan. Easy to keep spare on hand.
Looks like you are having too much fun ;) As far as fuel tanks go... I am in the camp with folks who vote for SS because of the heat/ fire hazards in the engine compartment. SS tank will buy you a bit more time as they tend to fail in small ways over time.
Adding lights is a great idea! LED's are so easy! Thanks for the videos !... My boys and wife laugh at me and my youtube friends. Hope to meet you on the water!
Enjoy!
Hello Mads, if you're looking for fittings check out "Swagelok" I used to use their products all the time when I worked in the oil and gas industry servicing gas plants and gas wells. Probably a similar cost (and overkill!) but will defiantly look really really sharp and they have just about every type of fitting you can imagine, in just about any size you can imagine. Most of it is just compression fittings on stainless tubing so no special tools required. Cut, tighten, done! And in case you're wondering the seal up really good we used to use them on pressure lines north of 2000kpa no leaks.
Cheers!
--Tyrell--
Looking at you tank mock up, I noticed that you may want to check the bottom of your tank for prop shaft clearance. You may have to make a semi circular channel for it to clear the front edge of the tank.
The boat OCD built nice job
Separating the supply and returns will improve fuel circulation in the tank and hence polishing. :)
You also should add a isolation valve on all your pick up lines, as close to the tank as possible. So if you have a leak it won't siphon drain the tank dry. It's a good idea to have isolations on every thing but on the low pickups is a must. Good luck, fair winds and following seas, be with you.
You need 2 , 1 inch NTP Flanges . One for each side of the plastic tank wall.That's to make a strong connection for your 1 inch 90 degree elbow. I would add some ball valves where ever they would be handy in the future , like for fuel transferring . I would rent or buy a roller bender to make nice bends on the stainless tubes.
It might be a good idea to put your fuel pickup through your inspection plate or through a smaller inspection plate. My old Military truck is done this way and so is the screen on the pickup foot fits in, but it also makes it easy to service or modify, the fuel gauge sender is mounted through a similar 4" inspection plate.
On the low end of your tank install a remote valve to drain once or so a year. You can gravity drain or suck out with a pump. sS Flex fuel line and a 1/4 valve will do.
Mads, I know you bought screwed stainless fittings. I have put in a lot of stainless pipe. The point being the location of the fittings if there is a leak it is a very hard place to work. I would suggest that all your pipe be welded up to the hose connection. Fuel oil is one of hardest from my experience of all liquid to prevent leaks in screwed pipe especially stainless. If you insist on screwed pipe this the trick I have learned. First put anti seize on the thread and then tape with Teflon tape then anti seize over that. The reason being stainless threads have a tendency to gall and when they do it is almost impossible to stop a leak. With the price of fittings and having to replace one because of galling and the absolute lack of leaks welding is the preferred way to go.
2 things Mads:
1.) If you decide to go with a non stainless steel tank, be aware of the difference in thermal expansion coefficient between your tank material and the steel pipes. If the pipes are mounted rigidly to the take, that might generate problems.
2.) In case your stainless steel fittings will be bolted on to the tank with a threaded nut (inside the tank), remember to keep enough distance from the edge of the tank so you have enough space so that you can tighten the nuts with tools (wrenches, ratchets).
Don’t forget to put a vent line in for refueling or it will burp fuel every time you fill up
Stainless steel from Canada. It gives me that good feeling seeing you wear the right mask for the job. I represented labor and saw many injuries from not using safety equipment.
Long time watcher of your channel, and love the work your doing; improving and personalizing a sailboat.
Sail Life is pretty much a major highlight of my Sunday afternoon. Thanks, man! edit: for all of us imperial guys 140 L = 36.9841 gallons, -7 Celsius = 19.4 Fahrenheit, $70 for a few fittings is WTF? lol and uden brus on the water bottle is without sparkles :P
Consider having the fill port below decks . I believe most water in diesel tanks arrives via the exposed deck fill
Hi mate, the new fuel tank should be of steel, and keep in mind, fewer holes fewer troubles.You´re going well
So much enjoyment! Thank you!
remember rigid steel tubing will not flex and will be under continuous vibration, it will look nice but could be problematic in time. fuel hose properly clamped will be neat not be susceptible to cracking.
terry white he should use stainless steel braided lines, strong and flexible
Most land diesel systems use precisely this stainless tubing except for a single flex length near the engine. The hose will fail first.
Land systems don't need to deal as much with the kind of shocks that water borne systems do, from waves and boat motion.
100% Steel for engine room ! (also glad to see yokul is doing fine :) )
Another awesome video. You do such nice work. That prototype fuel tank is absolutely brilliant and I think you probably saved yourself a lot of time in the end as well as had fun building a sweet wooden box. You absolutely know it is going to fit into the engine compartment and through the companionway opening.
You might want to think about adding a dedicated water pumpout tube that goes to the absolute lowest point of the tank. You could set this up to draw a quick sample from the bottom to check for any water or sediment without needing to open up an inspection port. You could set up a crossover between this and your polish circuit so you could draw any sediment at the bottom out as you polish.
I have a polish system I built myself out of an extra Racor 500 filter and a 60GPH 12v electric Carter inline fuel pump. Hallberg-Rassey 35 Rasmuses came with such an extra low-point fuel draw tube and I'm using that port to feed my polish system so when I polish I'm always drawing off of the lower sump in my keel tank. The drawback of this is if there is any water in the system it's going to end up in the racor bowl. A little bit will be OK and can be easily drained out of the bowl. If it is more than a cup or so then it's going to get into the filter media and shut down the polishing circuit when the filter collapses. As long as I never let any water get in and keep my vent from sucking seawater from the transom it will never be a problem.
My polishing circuit has two bypasses so I can pull in fuel from a separate container like a jerry can from the input, and also bypass so I can pump out to another separate container. I can do either or and even both (use the polisher to polish a 5-gallon jerry can, or even someone else's boat/tank if I have long enough hoses. I'm using quick-disconnect fuel connectors to hook into the polishing system and simple tank selector 3-way valves.
This way I can easily feed fuel in from Jerry cans and know that the fuel going into my tank went through a known good filter of my own in the polishing racor. If I am ever anywhere that I don't trust the fuel I can just fill up jerry cans and simply fill the tank that way. If I trust the fuel I can just fill it into the deck fill. I could also fill the tank from jerry cans right from the dingy and never have to lift them into the boat too if am transporting them to the boat from shore.
Stainless is a good idea. Runs of tubing will need to be secured with cushion clamps. Your point of weakness will be where a fitting is holding a stretch of tube. The more solid tube the more workhardening vibs transferred to the weld. This won't be an issue if you use enough cushion clamps.
What if you still did your stainless idea along the wall, then use flex lines making large diameter circles down the tank. They would absorbe vibration and still look cool. Think upside down rainbow but black. 1 set of cushion clamps would be plenty to secure them. And... you could carry a hose or two the longer length for back up. Maybe even color code.... ohhhhh
Instead of multiple pickup lines running down the side, just one fuel pickup line with a manifold mounted to the front, this will allow a single shutoff valve to the entire fuel supply system, shutting off everything coming out of the tank. And a single manifold for the return. This may clean up the engine room area much better then a row of pipes and elbows.
Also with multiple elbows consider how they all assemble and how much room is necessary to attach and detach fittings.
Love your video channel keep up the good work. My suggestion would be to run the piping out the starboard side of the tank/engine compartment. You then can mount shut off valves and have easier access to them. This would also be a good place for your fuel filters they can be mounted on the bulkhead wall. Finally put some magnets in the bottom of the tank to pick up any metal shavings. Oh and if you are thinking about a plastic tank ask if there will be any heat issues. The tank Mounted that close to the diesel engine its going to get hot in there.
Signed Tom, Minnesota USA
if you're putting the pipes down the side of the tank, make sure each pipe has a ball valve attached and enough room to shut it off.
Hey Mads! I am constantly impressed with your extreme attention to detail! I love the idea of the stainless steel pipes and the angle you’ll have them running all nice and neat. Keep up the good work. Definitely looking forward to the finished product. Btw, it wasn’t too much yammering. Planning and building prototypes to make sure your absolutely happy with your boat is worth it!
Looking good! I vote for stainless definitely, we have had some diesel problems and our stainless has a cleaner "feeling" to it for me at least
I have two points, 1.all the pipes are going to be hidden by the engine so it will not matter if they are stainless or flexible hoses, 2.stainless will be much harder to fix at sea in an emergency if they start leaking through vibration, where as if a flexible hose starts leaking it is much easier to replace it.