Love it when you get an honest evaluation of a spec or playstyle! Seal fate aka feral cat (me) - if it's like feral cat, you can out dps nearly anything in the game if: it's a single target with zero trash around, the target never flip flops around and it dies on your last rotation with a 5 point finisher (and you get through 2-3 full cycles). Prepare for hair pullout on aoe trash and leaving 5 combos on stuff that gets executed in a global xDDD At least you wont have potential mana issues like the cat. Great work on the video - love your approach on you content!! Thanks!
I rocked SF for ages in phase 2 & 3.. dps wasnt optimal but the rotation was more enjoyable and still pumped hard enough. As mentioned the single target fights it was still fairly strong.
Shorter version of the clip: Used to be constant top3 melee dps as combat dagger in overall raid dps. Then specced into SF to become 13th, even lost to a retri pal 😂😭 But the rotation is so much fun!( Years later I will heartily remember how fun smooth it was to build combos and execute finishers at twin emperors 😌
Looking at it from another angle, Seal Fate is a great PvE spec if you have good but mixed weapons (for example, a fist weapon or sword in the MH and an OH dagger). In my opinion, Seal Fate offers you an ideal option when you want to use your best weapons but those weapons are of different types. Once you obtain two good swords (or daggers, maces, or fist weapons) for MH and OH, then it makes more sense to stick with a combat spec. Gotta tell ya, though... a Seal Fate spec using Claw of the Black Drake MH (Firemaw in BWL) and Core Hound Tooth OH dagger (Molten Core) is reeeeeaaaaaaally fun. :) If I ever get my hands on the Claw of the Frost Wyrm OH fist weapon from Sapphiron in Naxx, though, I will have the two BIS fist weapons in Classic WoW. Then, I will go back to combat spec.
i've been playing sealfate when MC started towards AQ40, i tried everysingle sealfate spec and i even made some, i tried it with and without opportunity (which is bad btw), i have full crit gear adn non crit gear "crit gear always wins", i tried it with 3/5 sealfate and 3/5 offhand dmg which was good yet its luck based, i tried it with 1/5 sealfate and 5/5 offhand = still the same luck based, i've noticed that somehow i keep "missing" my autoattacks when im not suppose to miss, i think if you crit cap the game wont allow you to CRIT everysingle thing so it makes you miss, i think my crit was around 90% for "backstab only", yet the RNG is critical, if u crit u`ll do insane burst dmg and u can overcome sword spec rogues/combat daggers, if u dont crit = bad dps, i tried expose armor and i did it for a while its good, and yeah having renataki as sealfate is really good + some ppl when they play sealfate they use "Backstab" when they have 4points which is wrong always evi instead, i tried having less slice n dice in the talent build which is still RNG due to 25energy regain chance / point on target chances, today i`ll go with no slice n dice pointws in talent and see how it goes "No expose armor for raid tho".
You can't just stack crit like crazy, even for a SF build. Hit is still king for rogues. The more crit you have, the more hit you need; otherwise, well... you saw what happened.
As much as I love seal fate, I just really don't think it will ever truly compete or potentially surpass against AR with the consistency required to make me use it. I'm sitting at 5pc t3, over 30% crit unbuffed without dagger spec and that's sort of the baseline where I feel it's ok to at least TRY the spec out..ie: 30% unbuffed crit without the 5% from dagger spec. It's hard for me to justify giving the spec a try in naxx, considering I'm one of 3 rogues, the only dagger rogue, and my guild has given me both Kingsfall and Death's Sting. Aside from not having a naxx trinket and only 5/9 tier 9, I'm pretty much as BiS as it gets for a dagger rogue at this phase of the game and to purposefully gimp myself for an experiment in naxx doesn't feel like it'd go over well. It's something I'd be more inclined to do in AQ gbids or whatever like you did, but as you said... there's bosses in there that aren't the greatest for seal fate. You need longer fights, something like a patchwerk or loatheb, possibly thaddius if you get good RNG on being able to backstab, and that's where I think seal fate could do well and get a lot of big eviscerates off. Ouro is like the only fight in AQ I can think of where the spec has a chance to really shine. Not having the extra weapon skill short of equipping ACLGs again also hurts. I'd love for something to change and all of a sudden seal fate can be viable or at least hang with proper pve combat spec rogues, but I just don't see it. No matter the gear level. Not consistently. I've loved seal fate since vanilla. It was ALL I played in vanilla. I even messed around with 120 energy in classic as soon as I got 5pc t1, because pvp'ing with 120 energy is about as vanilla as it gets for rogues. It was hugely popular back then. No prep, or the other crazy useful sub talents, but god damn you have burst for days.
Hey Sarthe! I noticed thar for this spec you put no points into Weapon Expertise. In that case you would cap at 305 skill with swords as a human unless you picked up maladath or one of the +swords weapons in Naxx. How badly do glancing blows effect this spec?
I just can't stand Combat Dagger spec so have done a cookie made PVP/PVE spec high bursr Ambush/Backstab crits, but trying Seal Fate today and it was fun :) i hope you can do little good in PVP as well in Fate spec?
Obviously the more unbuffed crit you have, the better the spec is going to perform. But it's not like combat stops scaling enough for seal fate to catch up. Seal fate indeed gets better with naxx gear, it just isn't going to surpass combat. There will be certain fights where it can do really well, and other fights where it'll fall off badly. Combat doesn't have that issue.
I've heard the only way to make the dps even close to combat is if you have 5 peice t2.5 ACLGs and deathsting so that you have the 8 weapon skill cuz just using ACLGs and dropping down to 305 is just to much of a dps hit
You will also need to 4 pt evis rather than waiting for 5 pts because you'll be wasting combo pts if you crit going from 4-5pts. The play style is so diff than combat that it takes some time to get comfortable with it
@@grantshindo U can loose 1 cp if u evis with 4 pts and u can loose 25 energie if u evis with 4 pts. So u never want to 4 pt evis. U should never have 4 cps, except in the first rotation anyways
i have aclg but no death sting - if i change my t1 belt to mugglers belt and play seal fate instead of combat dagger, does it make sense to change the belt here to get more weaponskill (full t2.5 pugio corehound) or will it be a dps loss?!
with naxx gear, or tbh can get away with it in aq40 gear, i much prefer sinister strike seal fate. its more evis, even tho you think daggers is cause of the more consistent 2 points, but the lower cost of sinister is a pretty big deal
Im a gnome rogue and ive just rolled into seal fate and its been nice. Even more reason to do it in naxx is because you can get the 66dps mace along with offhand from aq40 trash alt pugio. Ive been running seal fate as swords and it loads alot of cp really given i have 28%crit unbuffed (1k+ ap). then buffs and eventual world buffs pushes it up to 40-50%. With sinister strike only costing 40 energy you get a nice flow, Sometimes you will opt for 4cp evis since u dont wanna risk wasting a combo point (and energy gain back) I really like the playstyle and i have been competetive with the other rogues. Some fights even beating them. Losing world buffs as seal fate sucks however. Not to mention how it will rock in pvp given your massive dmg talents. Its not really a dueling spec however (can be if you have plans) It is a pvp spec that isnt as easy mode as hemo spam
Seal fate as a raid spec is let down by the fact you are forced to drop weapon expertise from the combat tree, leaving you at 300 weapon skill in the raid enviroment. A better test would be to see the same build with DS/ACLG, or alternatively, seal fate swords as a human with Mala/THC offhand to get over the 308 break point. I intend to test the latter if I ever lay my hands on a mala in the near future.
Nice content ! Thanks very much ~ I‘ve been hoping to discuss this for a while ! That’s what I thought also , you are losing 5% crit from combat dagger crit and 5 skill point , and it’s better to replace it with aclg for a better hit rate but you will lose a whole lot of AP from Gloves of enforcement. And you are doing poor dps on Aoe fight and close dps with combat even with good RNG . But I think it’s a relatively better spec for sword , maybe human sword can have a good performance 🤓
Lol no, seal fate its too weak, your gerar its insane, because of that u performed good, but adrenaline rush Will always win seal fate, stop trying TO do rogues spend theyr Money on respecs
@@JimDaMagik Well yeah... But why? There are better specs for PvE and a lot better ones for PvP... So how is PvP an argument for a PvE spec, when you could just spec into actually good PvP specs... Unless you are a dadgamer with no gold ofc
Love it when you get an honest evaluation of a spec or playstyle! Seal fate aka feral cat (me) - if it's like feral cat, you can out dps nearly anything in the game if: it's a single target with zero trash around, the target never flip flops around and it dies on your last rotation with a 5 point finisher (and you get through 2-3 full cycles). Prepare for hair pullout on aoe trash and leaving 5 combos on stuff that gets executed in a global xDDD At least you wont have potential mana issues like the cat. Great work on the video - love your approach on you content!! Thanks!
I hate this! You set up for a 4-5 cp dump and then the warriors execute shit so fast I lose my points haha.
I rocked SF for ages in phase 2 & 3.. dps wasnt optimal but the rotation was more enjoyable and still pumped hard enough. As mentioned the single target fights it was still fairly strong.
I just started speccing into seal fate daggers for open world pvp, and it is the most fun ive ever had with a build
Seal fate is the spec for people who want cheesy two taps in PVP and don't mind being the Expose Armor Slave for guild. Thats what its best for.
@@GTFOIMAO Should have rolled a warrior. Now open up that armor for me!
Isnt 30/0/21 with Hemo spam and 2-3 combo point eviserate spam going to do better than 30/21 for single target with 5 combo point eviserates???
Shorter version of the clip:
Used to be constant top3 melee dps as combat dagger in overall raid dps.
Then specced into SF to become 13th, even lost to a retri pal 😂😭
But the rotation is so much fun!(
Years later I will heartily remember how fun smooth it was to build combos and execute finishers at twin emperors 😌
Looking at it from another angle, Seal Fate is a great PvE spec if you have good but mixed weapons (for example, a fist weapon or sword in the MH and an OH dagger). In my opinion, Seal Fate offers you an ideal option when you want to use your best weapons but those weapons are of different types.
Once you obtain two good swords (or daggers, maces, or fist weapons) for MH and OH, then it makes more sense to stick with a combat spec. Gotta tell ya, though... a Seal Fate spec using Claw of the Black Drake MH (Firemaw in BWL) and Core Hound Tooth OH dagger (Molten Core) is reeeeeaaaaaaally fun. :)
If I ever get my hands on the Claw of the Frost Wyrm OH fist weapon from Sapphiron in Naxx, though, I will have the two BIS fist weapons in Classic WoW. Then, I will go back to combat spec.
i've been playing sealfate when MC started towards AQ40, i tried everysingle sealfate spec and i even made some, i tried it with and without opportunity (which is bad btw), i have full crit gear adn non crit gear "crit gear always wins", i tried it with 3/5 sealfate and 3/5 offhand dmg which was good yet its luck based, i tried it with 1/5 sealfate and 5/5 offhand = still the same luck based, i've noticed that somehow i keep "missing" my autoattacks when im not suppose to miss, i think if you crit cap the game wont allow you to CRIT everysingle thing so it makes you miss, i think my crit was around 90% for "backstab only", yet the RNG is critical, if u crit u`ll do insane burst dmg and u can overcome sword spec rogues/combat daggers, if u dont crit = bad dps, i tried expose armor and i did it for a while its good, and yeah having renataki as sealfate is really good + some ppl when they play sealfate they use "Backstab" when they have 4points which is wrong always evi instead, i tried having less slice n dice in the talent build which is still RNG due to 25energy regain chance / point on target chances, today i`ll go with no slice n dice pointws in talent and see how it goes "No expose armor for raid tho".
TLDR = luck based talent
You can't just stack crit like crazy, even for a SF build. Hit is still king for rogues. The more crit you have, the more hit you need; otherwise, well... you saw what happened.
THANK YOU, I have literally been waiting months for this video sarthe, also thanks for everything from 1 bro to another you are appreciated!
Why is it better for dagger rogues than swords rogue?
As much as I love seal fate, I just really don't think it will ever truly compete or potentially surpass against AR with the consistency required to make me use it. I'm sitting at 5pc t3, over 30% crit unbuffed without dagger spec and that's sort of the baseline where I feel it's ok to at least TRY the spec out..ie: 30% unbuffed crit without the 5% from dagger spec. It's hard for me to justify giving the spec a try in naxx, considering I'm one of 3 rogues, the only dagger rogue, and my guild has given me both Kingsfall and Death's Sting. Aside from not having a naxx trinket and only 5/9 tier 9, I'm pretty much as BiS as it gets for a dagger rogue at this phase of the game and to purposefully gimp myself for an experiment in naxx doesn't feel like it'd go over well. It's something I'd be more inclined to do in AQ gbids or whatever like you did, but as you said... there's bosses in there that aren't the greatest for seal fate. You need longer fights, something like a patchwerk or loatheb, possibly thaddius if you get good RNG on being able to backstab, and that's where I think seal fate could do well and get a lot of big eviscerates off. Ouro is like the only fight in AQ I can think of where the spec has a chance to really shine. Not having the extra weapon skill short of equipping ACLGs again also hurts.
I'd love for something to change and all of a sudden seal fate can be viable or at least hang with proper pve combat spec rogues, but I just don't see it. No matter the gear level. Not consistently. I've loved seal fate since vanilla. It was ALL I played in vanilla. I even messed around with 120 energy in classic as soon as I got 5pc t1, because pvp'ing with 120 energy is about as vanilla as it gets for rogues. It was hugely popular back then. No prep, or the other crazy useful sub talents, but god damn you have burst for days.
It might do more damage in the Phase 6 cuz Rogues get rank 9 eviscerate
seal fate dagger blade flurry was my fav spec for raiding MC back in the day.
Hey Sarthe! I noticed thar for this spec you put no points into Weapon Expertise. In that case you would cap at 305 skill with swords as a human unless you picked up maladath or one of the +swords weapons in Naxx. How badly do glancing blows effect this spec?
I just can't stand Combat Dagger spec so have done a cookie made PVP/PVE spec high bursr Ambush/Backstab crits, but trying Seal Fate today and it was fun :)
i hope you can do little good in PVP as well in Fate spec?
What about 8/8 bonescythe, I feel like the crit should affect it
Obviously the more unbuffed crit you have, the better the spec is going to perform. But it's not like combat stops scaling enough for seal fate to catch up. Seal fate indeed gets better with naxx gear, it just isn't going to surpass combat. There will be certain fights where it can do really well, and other fights where it'll fall off badly. Combat doesn't have that issue.
I've heard the only way to make the dps even close to combat is if you have 5 peice t2.5 ACLGs and deathsting so that you have the 8 weapon skill cuz just using ACLGs and dropping down to 305 is just to much of a dps hit
You will also need to 4 pt evis rather than waiting for 5 pts because you'll be wasting combo pts if you crit going from 4-5pts. The play style is so diff than combat that it takes some time to get comfortable with it
@@grantshindo U can loose 1 cp if u evis with 4 pts and u can loose 25 energie if u evis with 4 pts. So u never want to 4 pt evis. U should never have 4 cps, except in the first rotation anyways
@@klingokling78 if you don't crit your bs you don't get extra cps
Actually if u have 5pc deathdealer you could skip 3pts in imp evis and get the 2% dmg from murder and 10% apply chance from imp poisons
I want that WA you use for combo, energy tick... pls link
i have aclg but no death sting - if i change my t1 belt to mugglers belt and play seal fate instead of combat dagger, does it make sense to change the belt here to get more weaponskill (full t2.5 pugio corehound) or will it be a dps loss?!
It's gonna be a dps loss
ok, and what about talent trees, why not 30/16/5 ?
Can you cover combat hemo spec for PVE and how you can make it viable?
Pretty sure you can't. You either miss out on blade flurry or lethality so your dmg is garbage.
You can go prep blade flurry but Hemo doesn’t seem viable in Pve
@@bryce2777 you dont play hemo for damage, it's to support other melees in the raid
@@ownageDan Fair enough, but you take up a valuable debuff slot (similar to gift of arthas) + Rogues are pumpers in Vanilla, not support.
with naxx gear, or tbh can get away with it in aq40 gear, i much prefer sinister strike seal fate. its more evis, even tho you think daggers is cause of the more consistent 2 points, but the lower cost of sinister is a pretty big deal
Im a gnome rogue and ive just rolled into seal fate and its been nice. Even more reason to do it in naxx is because you can get the 66dps mace along with offhand from aq40 trash alt pugio. Ive been running seal fate as swords and it loads alot of cp really given i have 28%crit unbuffed (1k+ ap). then buffs and eventual world buffs pushes it up to 40-50%. With sinister strike only costing 40 energy you get a nice flow, Sometimes you will opt for 4cp evis since u dont wanna risk wasting a combo point (and energy gain back) I really like the playstyle and i have been competetive with the other rogues. Some fights even beating them. Losing world buffs as seal fate sucks however. Not to mention how it will rock in pvp given your massive dmg talents. Its not really a dueling spec however (can be if you have plans) It is a pvp spec that isnt as easy mode as hemo spam
cant wait to see once you get claw of frost wrym, going both claws with spec and doing one raid with it ;D
Seal fate as a raid spec is let down by the fact you are forced to drop weapon expertise from the combat tree, leaving you at 300 weapon skill in the raid enviroment. A better test would be to see the same build with DS/ACLG, or alternatively, seal fate swords as a human with Mala/THC offhand to get over the 308 break point. I intend to test the latter if I ever lay my hands on a mala in the near future.
with the amount of stunable trashmobs in naxx i think imp kidney shot is also an option.
sealfate was the OG of vanilla pvp.
For real. Ming PvP. Don't remember but I'm pretty sure HappyMinti did it as well.
nah, hemo all the way
oh man you have the cthun belt AND the sartura gloves?!? my guild still has not seen 1 of either :(
and Death Sting and Job Gabbar. Man's been hetting some LOOT
@@MoritzGarbanzo no kiddin, awesome to see
Thank you for the knowledge
Your could ALWAYS go seal fate..it's never going to be considered the meta game.
But its way more fun and interactive. So just do it
sealfate swords tho SS > BS since we arent using dagger spec wtf are we doing backstabbing for seal fate
I hope im not the only one but ive been slammed with hit recently.. its so bad that if i go snag unforgiven and dm book ill hit 24.63% dw cap lol
Nice content ! Thanks very much ~ I‘ve been hoping to discuss this for a while !
That’s what I thought also , you are losing 5% crit from combat dagger crit and 5 skill point , and it’s better to replace it with aclg for a better hit rate but you will lose a whole lot of AP from Gloves of enforcement. And you are doing poor dps on Aoe fight and close dps with combat even with good RNG . But I think it’s a relatively better spec for sword , maybe human sword can have a good performance 🤓
Yeah, that’s correct, human swords are just so much above daggers in similar SF+Blade Flurry talent build *curses in dwarvish*
I always ask this lol, thanks for sharing
Seal Fate isnt the best, but boy is it fun!
seal fate is just fun af
No. Next question
Sarthe 🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽
TLDR: no
Lol no, seal fate its too weak, your gerar its insane, because of that u performed good, but adrenaline rush Will always win seal fate, stop trying TO do rogues spend theyr Money on respecs
Rogue has gold problem? Lol.
Seal Fate is superior in every way, esp for PVP.. In PVE youre not missing out on much.
LOL
casually ignoring weapon skill talents and adrenaline rush
Arguing about PvE specs with PvP... Such a dadgamer thing to do. If you want to pvp, just throw those 50g and spec PvP
He's right though... In Pve you're not missing out on much. Only dps.
@@JimDaMagik Well yeah... But why? There are better specs for PvE and a lot better ones for PvP... So how is PvP an argument for a PvE spec, when you could just spec into actually good PvP specs... Unless you are a dadgamer with no gold ofc