Babylon 5 Newbies React to 3x20 | And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place | First Time Watching
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- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- Watch Mike, Ray, and, Julien react to Babylon 5 3x20! Grey 17 Is Missing
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*********Content in this Video******************************
00:00 Intro
02:45 Reaction
20:20 Review and Afterthoughts
#babylon5
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Londo was 100% the driving force behind the assassination of Lord Refa. He had several reasons, chief of them being his belief that Refa killed Adira, but also because Refa was working with Mr. Morden and his associates (not to mention the pre-existing rivalry between Mollari and Refa in the Royal Court). G'Kar had his own reasons for going along with the plan: Refa was the guy responsible for the use of mass drivers in the bombardment of Narn, as well as a lot of the nasty stuff going on during the occupation. But G'Kar was also aware that Refa's death likely wouldn't change anything for him except a fleeting revenge, which is probably why he merely watched the other Narns take down Refa (and didn't stay to see the aftermath, either).
I imagine that the Narn prisoners freed as part of Londo's end of the deal were a far greater inducement for G'Kar personally to agree to be a part of this.
@@Bek359 Agreed - G'Kar is trying to do his best by his people from the position he's in, and freeing a few thousand of his imprisoned fellow Narns in exchange for killing the guy responsible for the bombardment of his homeworld is a pretty reasonable deal, especially since the whole 'execution of 500 Narns for the murder of one Centauri' is off the table for this particular death. The fact that it benefits Londo is unpalatable for G'Kar, but it comes out as a net gain for his people, so he's willing to stomach it for their sake.
That was a good deal for G'Kar. It's a no-brainer why he would work with Londo against Refa.
G'Kar is wise enough to not let his personal feelings get in the way of gaining any kind of benefit, by the same token, Londo is wise enough to not underestimate G'Kar, despite any personal feelings. Not to jump fandoms, but an old Anime had a line that I feel fits this well 'Only a human would let his personal feelings keep him from recognizing someones skills'
@@captin3149G’Kar is somewhat transcendent at this point. He believes he’s on a holy journey. He’s not seeking revenge at this point, only the good of his people. This is why he doesn’t take part in the killing. At the same time, he knows the other Narn definitely want blood and the deal for Refa’s death has been made. Once the transaction has been completed, G’Kar considers his responsibility fulfilled.
watching Delenn go full wife mode to Sheridan made me miss Mira so much. Such a beautiful soul.
A side note: William Forward, the actor who played Refa, apparently went to JMS after reading the script and said "What have I done wrong that you're writing me out like this?" JMS proceeded to say that Refa had to go for Londo's arc to progress and it was precisely because Forward had done such a great job as Refa that he was getting a swansong episode instead of being written out off screen. And JMS is right. Refa's death is one of the most memorable death of a villain.
JMS was in a bar when the Refa assassination scene was on the bar's TV. One of the other patrons asked "what's going on here?"
JMS responded "A bunch of Jews beating up Hitler."
One of the most memorable villain deaths in tv history. Absolutely love this episode. Juxtaposing a brutal death with a gospel song…absolutely brilliant 😂
There is no hiding place for the like button and yet SOME PEOPLE can't seem to find it.
JMS said in an interview that the actor who played Refa came to him when he read the script and asked if they were not happy with his performance - JMS told him that on the contrary, his performance was so good that he had to have a truly satisfying death.
And it really was so good. How cheated would we all have felt if Refa's death happened off camera, and was only mentioned in passing?
Way I hear, he was supposed to be one hit wonder in Season 2, but his acting was so good that JMS decided to make him an arc villain for season 3.
Almost 30 years now and still the goodbye Reefa wave gives me the same chills as it did when i first saw this episode.
Message to the ladies: the quickest way to a man’s heart is to give him a fully armed hi tech battle fleet!
That's how my wife landed me - now I preside over three galactic fiefdoms with uncontested space naval power.
PS She also cooks a mean lasagna.
PSS Im not actually married.
@@rafetizerI’m sorry, I can’t help myself and I should show more restraint … but it’s “PPS” not “PSS”.
PS is the abbreviation of Postscript, with the Latin “Post” meaning “after”. So, when (humorously) putting another note after a PS it would be Post-Postscript or PPS.
I will now crawl back to Pedantry Island.
@@AngeloBarovierSD maybe he was whispering like , pss hey buddy I have a secret. Or maybe he thought he was talking to cat people like pss,pss,pss hi kitty. I’m just spitballing here.
@@alphanerdgames9417 Maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe Vir is a Vorlon cat. Who’s to say?!
@@AngeloBarovierSD well Vir did say “quack” so its understandable.
I love the idea that Ray's neighbors heard Mike screaming "Use More Tongue!" and now wonders what the hell goes on in that house.
Aliens sitting in the service like "These humans are singing joyfully about people running in terror from utter destruction. Damn these humans hardcore."
Wait until they learn how many folk songs are about murder…
HAHA!!!!!!
I believe the minister suspected Refa was setup by Londo, but he respected Londo ending the rivalry as he requested. So he accepted it.
He did seem to pause and rethink when Londo said "I suspect he was even planning to kill *you."*
The minister is far too versed in Centauri politics to not be absolutely certain that Londo was behind Refa's death. However, Londo covered his tracks enough that it won't come back to him, and it resolved the rivalry, so to the minister, it's just politics like usual.
100% the minister is sceptical, but Londo just removed a major piece from the board. From the minister's perspective, siding with a dead man potentially puts him in Londo's gunsights.
He definitely smelled bullshit but at the same time, the case was neatly wrapped in a bow and he wasn’t going to openly question a guy who was probably complicit in the murder so it was better to let it go.
Yep - that was obvious.
Even better than a transition; playing the two scenes simultaneously was pure genius
One of B5's best episodes... and at the time i honestly thought G'kar was gonna be dead by the end of the episode, thanks in no part to Kosh going bye bye earlier that season, and Winters too... the benefit of actually doing in main characters from time to time... ups the stakes and leaves the viewer with real concern.
I was so worried about G'kar too! It's a rollercoaster of emotions with those main characters.
@@RKnights Oh, you aint seen nothin yet!!!
This episode is so well constructed, with so much going on, that I consider it the best single episode to rewatch out of the blue.
Agreed!
De'lenne and John kissing with the fleet of advanced warships drifting past the screen is such an iconic image. You just know things are about to get a lot more interesting from here.
"And so it begins."
The death of Refa and the birth of the whitestar fleet
Ah Delenn is adorable and the Reverend´s advice is also great, loved the story from him.
G`Kar and Londo make a deal...just wow and Refa...well that was brutal...also why was the data crystal red? Blood.
The minister was a bit 'Londo, I know what you did and the story is sloppy, seriously this is what you tell me?' And then Londo came with this part where Refa wanted to play all sides against each other and the minister was like 'Hmmm better...thinking of Refa...maybe Londo didn´t even make this up'
I was at a Trek con when this aired. But lots of folk were in the bar watching this live on tv. Standing room only. The crowd was yelling "kiss her" and roared when he did. A perfect memory, straddling the line between Star Trek and B5 fandoms. Happy Days.
don't think i've heard guys cheer like that over a kiss before
Its been such a build up
Yeah, they marked out MAJORLY!!!
@@RKnights What's been great about it though is if you go back and chart the evolution of their relationship, it's very realistic and organic. From their first look when Delenn pulled back her cowl and showed her new "human" face, to the first touch of hands in the garden, first dinner date, coming to rely on each other for solace and support and so on. It's one of THE BEST evolving relationships between a man and woman I've EVER seen in media. But remember, in every good TV/movie relationship there's always .... the complication.
Funny how a kiss scene got more excitement then the Refas death. What a show.
That song and what goes down during it is just so perfect... That will stick with you for a while... And the rock cried out no hiding place!
I espeially like how the did the hologram there, not interacting with people that weren't there when the holo was recorded in story by waving into the other actors and such.
I don’t comment often in order to avoid spoilers but the next three episodes are among the best of the series.
Looking forward to it
Bruh, Vir was mind r worded because of what Londo had him do. His rage is entirely justifiable.
That, and Vir truly believed that Londo was going to destroy his entire family if he didn't betray G'Kar to his death. And Vir went and did it. Honestly believing G'Kar would die for his actions, even though he deeply respects G'Kar. And for the rest of his life, Vir is going to have to carry the knowledge that he *would* have actually done it. That he *did* do it. He was only saved by Londo's deception. But at the moment of the decision, Vir caved to Londo's threats.
When a woman (Minbari) gives you fleet, there's only one thing to do....
agreed
"They say he is already in the Forest of Arden, and a many merry men with him; and there they live like the old Robin Hood of England. They say many young gentlemen flock to him every day and fleet the time carelessly, as they did in the golden world."
As You Like It Act 1 Scene 1
Refas end inter cut with the minister singing no hiding place was great .
What’s amazing about Londo is that we like him despite his occasional genocide and when he threatens to strip Vir’s family naked, we believe it. He’s an amazing character because we really never know what he’s capable of and what he might do. This unpredictability works on Vir for the same reason. He’s always defended Londo and yet when Londo threatens him, he believes it to the point that he actually lies to G’Kar, who knows he’s lying to him. I have to imagine G’Kar lost some respect for him at that point.
Or G'Kar was told that this would be the signal that everything was in place for killing Lord Refa.
@@toddkes5890 Oh sure he knew, but Vir believed he was sending G’Kar to his death. This was really Vir’s lowest moment. We’ve seen him gaining strength and character but he collapsed completely under Londo’s threats.
@@sdfried4877 At the end of the day, Vir believed he was defending and safeguarding his family.
Mike encapsulates how Londo thinks Vir should react. That Vir should see the win it is for saving the Narn lives Vir so values, and for how it bettered their position.
Ray encapsulates the emotional psychology Beings actually use. While the good done should win out, the emotional hurt from being used by someone we thought liked us, will dominate. Because of Londo's plan, Vir was hurt physically and mentally. He was made to compromise his morals (risking G'kar's life) in order to "save" his family's. He lived in fear for what Londo would do to them for awhile, and then in pain thinking he had doomed a good man. None of it was real, but Vir thought it was. All to help Londo achieve his goals. Even if it saved 2,000 Narns, the "betrayal" would have felt immense. Vir could accept what happened as necessary, but not today.
That what I was telling Mike. There is no way you can forgive you buddy for doing such a thing at least not immediately
This episode is in my top 5. I don't know what I love more, Londo being the greatest schemer of all times or JMS' brilliant interweaving the A plot and B plot that have otherwise nothing to do with other, but come together with the music. And the introduction of the fleet of White Stars and the kiss are just a bonus.
This is one of the best episodes of television ever made
Great Editing by Skip Robinson for this episode: the intercutting of the song with the violence is a nod to Cabaret (which starred Michael York and Liza Minnelli among others) When the singer sings Jesus you get a brief cut of G'Kar facing the camera.
That is one of my all time favorite transitions ever.
I think this is going to be the start of a butifull friendships.
The build up begins, enjoy this ride! G'Kar and Londo, hatred, animosity, mutual assured destruction, sounds like the most messed up relationship
The 2nd most satisfying death in the entire series. 👏👏👏
i was like .. wait up !!!! there's a better one? .. and .. then .. all in just a split second ... i knew exactly who when n how :D n nobody can say *he/she didn't have it coming :D :D :D
I bet I know your number one
So far. So far….,
I mean there is a LOT of competition for that title.
But there is one that just stands out not just because it's satisfying but because a favourite character gets a beautiful moment of vengeance.
A reminder to everyone. PLEASE....no spoilers.
Mal: -Drunks- Spoiler writing are so cute.
Well, they tell ya, never -hit a man with a closed fist- Write a spoiler ... but it is, on occasion, hilarious.
Remember the San Diego Wastelands from "Spider In The Web" in Season 2 ? The home base of Bureau 13 ....
Yes, San Diego was destroyed by a suitcase nuke in a terrorist attack 100 years earlier in 2157.
The set-up from episodes past makes the PAY-OFF in this episode TWICE and impactful as it is on the surface.
It isn't just "dealing with Refa", but the "payment to G'Kar" of the Narn freed by Vir's time on Nimbar AND the twisting of the Centarui Courts going on where it is hinted that the Emperor was supporting Refa just makes the payoff of removing Refa so much better.
Because it is Londo using Vir's "error" that could be used against him into a STRENGTH to deal with G'Kar AND it out smarts anyone in the court that might be leaning towards Refa at the same time.
The hymn is real. An old spiritual from the south. Love how it was incorporated here.
the next two episodes will warp your brain......
"And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place"
🎶 I take their measurements, information and then I smuggle it! 🎶 #Ham4B5
Londo adores Vir but Londo understands the stakes they are playing for and Vir is far too kind and naive to survive without Londo protecting him. Londo is prepering Vir for the future to help him survive in the snake pit of Cetauri politics. As Londo's importance has risen so has Vir's with any number of people ready to use him or even eliminate him to get closer to Londo. He's going to have to grow up and get tougher and sneakyer if he doesn't want to be a pawn controlled by others. We may hate Londo's actions but you can't deny the need for his lessons.
It's fascinating to see the dynamic between Londo and Vir evolve in such a complex political environment.
All i can hear now towards the end of your discussion is Gerard going to Michael, "Shuddup ! "
I take Michael's side. Remember Vir runs an underground to free Narns. Vir should be happy 2000 Narns are free. I'm not saying he wouldn't be upset, but he would also be able to deal with it.
Lol nice pivot, hilarious end to that argument 😂
There was a Babylon 5 CCG back in the day, and one of the traits that the character cards had was Intrigue, representing their skill at getting things accomplished through other means besides force and diplomacy. Londo's was pretty high for a starting character and as he advanced it got VERY high.
Vir is right to be pissed BUT lying to him also potentially saved Vir's (and, by extension, his family's) life.
If Londo's plan had failed, Londo would've been executed for working with G'Kar. House Mollari would've fallen, and Refa would be one step closer to becoming Emperor. How long do you think Vir, as a former ally of Londo, would've lasted with Refa in charge?
At best, Vir's family would've been disgraced in the manner Londo described for real.
3 episodes ago "if Refa died"... good work, guys!
Mike is right. Vir would be more concerned with the lives saved than his own ego. Oh, he is made at Londo, but he also made a choice a while back. To be Londo's consiounse.
Remember what he said to Londo when he was ordered to find Morden.
"We're gonna start talking in tongues here". Haha.
About the reaction of vir
I also think he wouldn't be angry for long for several reasons
1. Vir was always threated like the family joke (in the centaur society surely not a comportable thing) but londo took him out and always helped him.
2. Vir always wanted to minimize bloodshed against the narn sohe would consider rescuing 2000 narn an acceptable outcome.
3. Vir didn't like reefa either because he was responsible for many things that gone wrong on centaur prime.
4. Londo irs like a father figure for vir (don't forget he is much younger than londo)
5. He witnessed a lot of good deeds that londo has done over time.
6. In a society like the century londo would be considered as one of the good guys and you must always look from the view of the protagonist
So I think vir is Pisse of 1 or 2 days and then everything will be OK again.
Oh and od course londo told him anything that happened because vir is the only one he trusts fully on.
So he would told him anything so that he don't feel so used
Just a note. In miltary terms, Z - designates the last day to cancel a operation. Essentally, its the timetable for getting all the pieces in position for their part of a operation.
So Z-14 means 2 weeks before something BIG happens, conviently the Season finale.....
Specifically, it stands for “zero hour”, the point at which elements commence their action.
In WWII times, when communication was not as ubiquitous as it is today, this was a tremendous moment because operational elements could include aircraft flying with long range radio silence, troops moving into enemy territory, or saboteurs behind the lines taking dangerous steps.
If any of those happen and the operation is called off after zero hour, it would run the chance of exposing assets to enemy action without the assistance of allied elements or the strategy of the attack. Hence, by zero hour, commanders had to be certain that conditions were right and all elements were up to the task.
A nice detail is how they did the hologram of Londo, it wasn't perfect. It didn't line up properly with Refer when talking to him, and walking into G'Kar and his reaction to it are great little touches.
It really makes it more realistic than if it all lined up perfectly. It is one of those things you notice with rewatching the series, the little details, sometimes going on in the background, that subtly sell the characters and the area they are in as real.
Contrast with other intellectual properties where the hero ship remains unique. This is how a nation preparing for war actually behaves. How many warships? Yes.
I’m enjoying all the speculation about what “Z” means. 🙊
The term "Delenn" and "butt grabbing" just sounds SO wrong but SO funny!!!
we waited 3 seasons for this kiss!(as well as londo's little sneaky plan!)
This is one of my favourite moments in B5.
Why did G'Kar go along with it? Well Londo basically told him: "Here's your chance to get back at the guy who ordered your planet to be bombed back to the Stone Age. Also, I'll set 2000 Narns free as a bonus."
MICHAEL !!!! Oooops 😂
When this episode was first shown on the UK's Channel 4 at 6pm on a Sunday, the final shot of G'kar walking away ,while Refa was literally getting his ass handed to him ,was CUT on broadcast ...UK viewers never got to see it for years ,until the series was re-run on the Sci-Fi Channel..
Still prolly my favorite episode
so .. question for yall commenters :D what was the last time you cheered to gospel when baddie got chased and horribly mutilated ? :D
If you actually listen to the lyrics, they're truly terrifying. They're bigoted, intolerant and worthy of being forgotten forever...
On the other hand, god damn it fits the scene.
@@Shadowman4710 if you think of the lyrics as being applicable to everyone, no matter how good a person they are, just because they didn't share a particular faith, then yes, the lyrics are horrible. If you think of the lyrics as the just desserts to some very specific bad people who have gone Far Beyond the Pale, then they're entirely understandable and human. Everyone loves to see the bad guy get exactly what's coming to them (well, except the bad guy, but we don't count them...).
How did I miss this livestream? One of the ones i was looking forward to.
It was a good one too. We will be on tomorrow
I missed it too. And this episode was one I wanted to catch live.
@@RKnights Tomorrow is going to be a Serious Blast. I'm going to have get all my errands done super early in the day.
i actually miss those live streams .. but been unexpectedly busy over last few moths... so i always miss it :( bon voyage towards the finale :)
Hope you can join us in the future
"Why is Vir so upset? It's not that bad"
My man... Ray had to drag it out coz I was writing a freaking essay here...
31:40 - Julien freaking dying xD
Also G'kar could trust Londo because he could secure the area, because Refa has no idea he is walking into an ambush
If there was any trickery the Narns could have simply buggered off
I'm sorry for not remembering your names, but I do think that the guy with glasses (Michael?) sold it that Vir would eventually forgive Londo. Him freeing 2.000 narns IS a powerful incentive for Vir to accept Londo's actions, even if those prisioners were only freed as a means to an end.
Trust, on the other hand?
Rest In Pieces, Lord Refa. Londo is quite Machiavellian in his revenge. G'Kar benefitted greatly by the temporary alliance with Londo. True - Mr. Morden did frame Lord Refa to anger Londo. Not that Refa didn't deserve his fate for other reasons.
As for the Ike and Tina Turner reference ... sorry but Vir just doesn't have the legs Tina has 😉. Mike trying to walk back the funny argument with his ending statement "Yeah I'd be pretty pissed off too if I were Vir .." 🤣🤣🤣🤣
So Londo thought that Refa poisoned Adira, because Londo poisoned Refa, and this was payback. The poison was of Centauri origin. What Londo doesn't know (and we the viewers do know) is that Adira was murdered on Morden's orders, because the Shadows want to stay ahead of what the Centauri are doing, and Londo tried to break ties with Morden and forced Refa to give up as well. But then after Londo read the toxicology report, the poison was indeed of Centauri origin, and Morden suggested that it might have been Refa. So Londo killed Refa as revenge for Adira, not knowing that Morden did it
R Knights are probably very "pleased" for this spoiler 🙄
@@Carl_Gustav_Häyhä it's not a spoiler. What? This is all literally what we know based on what we've seen so far.
@@Petrosman Hmm... Okay, we saw few strong hint's but not Morden's quilt exactly. We should be careful with foreshadowing. (Saw this first time 1998-2000, 2nd DVD box on use)
@@Carl_Gustav_Häyhä we literally saw Morden paying the guy who was on the transport with Adira. He was the last one off the transport, and Londo asked if him if there was anyone else coming, he said no, because he had poisoned Adira. And we literally saw Morden finding out all the info about Adira's visit from Vir and the dude Vir was buying accessories with for Adira.
Just rewatch Interludes and Examinations. We were literally shown everything that had happened to Adira and how Morden was involved. Morden did a lot of stuff in that episode. We know for sure Morden is responsible and he told Londo that it might have been Refa (he suggested it to him).
Best of episodes
So good
There is so very very much competition for that title.
Z-minus 14 days…. Z-minus 13 days…..
16:50 - 17:05 And this is why I watch you guys...
🤣🤣🤣
Yes this one, i have been waiting.
Gray 13 is the worst episode but it makes this one better
The WarPrayer (1x07) was much, much, worse than Grey 17, IMO.
Grey 17 is a great episode :D
Thanks!
Thanks
"This is setting up for season 4" oh boy, you guys have no idea how right you are
This series inspired the writers of “Game of Thrones”?!
I've been looking forward to this one! But what is it with B5 episode titles that start with "And ..."? Grammatically it adds nothing to the meaning. But it sounds so awesome and poetic. Did TNG ever do this or is it a JMS thing?
I would say it's more a JMS thing. 😅
Well, Trek also has some poetic titles... "Is there in Truth no beauty" comes to mind... "Or The Trouble with Tribbles"...
Its a word for word quote from a line in a gospel song... nothing wrong with starting with an 'And', its old fashioned, and it tends to give the sentence a certain quality, like say, saying 'And Jesus wept' or 'And so it goes', 'And thats a wrap'... if someone said 'Can you get us some burgers' and someone else added 'And fries'... they wouldn't instead just say 'Fries'... as that makes less sense and sounds terrible, like a verbal fart.
@@NZBigfoot And you're right, of course.
@@commanderkruge "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" is one of my favorite Trek titles. Of course just like JMS's Ands, it starts with a superflous word!
yall not doing house of the dragon season 2?
We haven't had a chance to start but we totally are!!
I love B5, but I don't understand why they have to bundle religion into every second episode. Term Sci-Fi includes word science!
Belief in science (in technological progress) is also a religion.
@@user-oq4jv7xk3e For me and hopefully for most other adult viewers scifi in not religion, but fantasy and entertainment. Anyhow, God- and Scifi-religion are too different to put in the same show.