Bypass Your Solid-State Power Section
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- All Valve Micro Dark? Sure, just bypass your solid state power section and feed it into a valve amp.
Recently one of my viewers suggested that I bypass the 20W solidstate power section of my Orange Micro Dark and run it through the 120W, EL34 loaded power section of my Bugera 333.
Possibly the best viewer suggestion yet.
Micro Dark tone, full valve response.
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Thanks immensely for explaining the potential of damaging a precious valve/tube amp. I don't have one but if I did I would not have known any better.
its odd to go back and see how much the production quality on this channel has improved over the years. dont worry old colin, we're gonna get you some audio treatment in that room!!!
This micro dark has an amazing clean channel, and it honestly sounds better going through the solid state power section IMO.
Also, props for the backstreet boys demo.
I actually prefer the solid state power section. I think that's because the preamp of the micro dark is designed to go into the darker solid state section so when it goes into the tube power section, it comes off as too bright. Still a very cool test and I would love to see this done with more amps!
credit to orange for voicing the power amp super well
Absolutely! Had they not made it super dark, it would probably sound horribly fizzy as most high gain solid state amps are.
Regardless of the opinions of the results, it's good to see people creatively using different configurations.
I did this with the terror stamp ran it through the cr120 by feeding it into the fx return essentially giving a 120 watt solid state head a tube tone. Cheap fix to someone wanting a rockerverb but can’t afford the price.
I did the same with a micro dark and cr120. Gave my cr120 a nice tube tone that wasn’t quite there before, and it’s likely the closest I’ll get to a rockerverb.
Jesus I do have a CR120 too
Bought it after a Joyo meteor
I'm trying this but I don't feel a difference
I tried slaving my 100w Peavey Windsor (EL34) from the Micro Dark and the tone was jaw-dropping in comparison. I've owned in the past a Tiny Terror, Dark Terror and OR15 and this combination tops them all. Peavey's "Texture" and "Resonance" (I don't really use the Presence, but it's there) knobs are magical with the MD as the preamp.
I actually like the sound of solid-state power amp in the distorted examples much more. Bugera is waaaay too grainy and "hissy" treble.
IKR? my bandmate has this bugera and on its own, it sounds ok (too harsh for me tho), but once the rest of the band kicks in, you can barely hear it
It is a bit of a moving target, though. For this demo the Micro Dark's settings were kept the same in both setups, but if you were using the Micro-Dark-into-Bugera setup for real you'd be free to adjust the Micro Dark knobs to get a sound you like: push the Shape a bit further right, maybe. And the stronger bass of the transistor power section sounds great when the guitar is on its own but might not be so useful in a band context, naturally.
Bugera is garbage
I have the 333XL version and I love how it sounds on its own. I liked the Micro Dark with SS power amp too.
I think his EQ setting is to blame for that undesirable hiss. The power tubes seem to really add a lot of presence to the amp. Probably would have sounded better with the EQ at 10-11 O'clock.
I think they both sound pretty good, honestly. I'm sure you've addressed it in other videos but the "tubes automatically better" thing is a very incurious way to look at it. For instance, the solid state power section of that micro dark sounds really focused, punchy and mid-focused and that nice "chirp" from the pick attack is pretty prominent.
This is a very interesting idea and thanks for the sound comparison. I did like the sound of the Micro Dark into the Bugera.
Guess I'm the weirdo. I thought running through the tube amp sounded astronomically better with gain, and the only difference between the the tube and SS clean I noticed was when the text at the bottom of the screen said it changed..
Either way, I had no idea this was possible. Your videos are awesome man, I'm always learning stuff from you.
I agree! I think the power tubes gave it a fuller, bigger tone; the solid state keeps it darker. I’d love to try this with KT88s, KT77s, and 6550s in a darker tube amp.
They are very similar.
@@12breacher82 I really get what they say about solid state sounding digital now
Very nice job during the comparison part. A lot of people talk or play to completely different parts when comparing things.
I bought a Micro Dark back in March. On professional RUclips videos, it sounded amazing, but in real life, it was far less appealing. I believe most professional or higher grade videos have had the audio post processed to improve it's tone. I tried 5 different types of preamp tubes, 2 different overdrive pedals and an EQ in the effects loop - all to no avail. Could never get it to be as tight as it needed to be for tight Metal rhythm playing. Traded it yesterday for a Yamaha THR10X and could not be happier. If people can get a tone out of a Micro Dark they like, then kudos to you guys, because I sure as heck could not.
I was initially regretting the purchase until i found that I needed to crack it to about 9 o'clock possition to really get a great tone out of it + a decent amount of distortion. Giving it some space to breath just made a better tone with some nice compression with gain.
***** No matter what volume or settings I tried, it could not be tight enough for me personally. Killer tones, just not Metal rhythm tight enough, imo.
***** It was played through both my Marshall 2x12 and Marshall 4x12, with a TS-9 and it still could not get tight enough to play tight Metal rhythm on.
And the "Shape" knob is pretty much useless, imo, for great Metal tones. An EQ in the effects loop is needed to try and get it tighter. And the big secret the guys who are trying to sell you this amp never tell you - after you hit 4 on the volume, it does not get louder. This was my 3rd Orange amp, and each one was either returned or traded away.
Have had exactly the same issue and actually find this with most amp 'reviews'. So much additional gear is used, do NOT expect your amp to sound the same as reviews.
pretty crazy how much the sound and responsiveness drastically improved
Great video! And I was surprised that, while I preferred the valve power stage for gain, I personally preferred the SS section for the cleans!
You could rig up a switch that turns off the bugeria then runs the tiny terror into the cab. I mean if you really wanted to. Still not practical but it gives you some options. or switch it from one cab to another when you want the solidstate or the valve
Tried this yesterday, kind of/sort of. I have a solid state Hotone Thunder Bass 5W (Ampeg SVT inspired) that has the Effects Loop. I wanted to use the Tone Stack preamp section of the Hotone into another, more powerful solid state Pyle PVAMP60R open back 1x8 full range speaker combo amp that does not have the Effects Loop.
Here's what I did, I used the Hotone TB as a powered 18V DC amp pedal. The guitar instrument cord went into the front of the Hotone into the Instrument Input like it normally would. On the back of the Hotone, I used a patch cable into the Send part of the Effects Loop. Rather than attach it to a pedal and send that signal to the more powerfiul Pyle or back into the Hotone Return, I simply plugged the Send patch cable into the Input of the Pyle amplifier. Effectively it became the Hotone preamp sent out and into the Pyle as a preamp pedal. Obviously the instrument was a Jackson JS1XM 28.6 short scale bass. I guess the only difference here was that the Hotone as the instrument & pedal signal went into the Pyle for preamp & power sections, since it wasn't going to get there as the Return from the Hotone.
Seemed to work that way though with no damage to amp(s) or speaker. I guess one could even use an ABY box or another pedal with True Bypass if the Pyle or another (tube) amp had an Effects Loop to patch that into the Return of the more powerful amp ? instead of going into the front of the Pyle & into it's Instrument Input (Low/High).
The other though I had, just run the Hotone as the 5W amp head and then connect the Pyle's 1x8 combo speaker as a passive cab into the Parallel connection of the passive 1x12 cab that I have. a pair of 8 Ohm cabs in Parallel to be a 4 Ohm dual speaker rig.
I know that this video Is 6 year's old give or take but, Didn't know I could run my MICO Terror Like this and get A SOUND LIKE THAT
SOUND'S outstanding
Don't know if anyone below mentioned this already but be aware that you still don't have an all-tube-amp! The Orange Dark Terror has 2 ECC83's in the preamp, 1 in the FX loop and 1 as the phase inverter. The Orange Micro Dark Terror on the other hand has just 1 ECC83 in total which sits in the preamp. So the other ECC83 from the original preamp was substituted with opamps, hence you still have no "real" all-tube-amp, even when you don't matter a little bit of sand in the FX loop buffer. The preamp itself is not all-tube on the Micro Dark Terror by default
Damn your videos are getting super high quality! Love the new editing :D
I actually really like this, I think with the orange preamp and bugera poweramp it's the best your tone has ever sounded, or at least to me it is. I might have to try this myself!
These videos have definitely changed for the better!
The micro dark us seriously good for the money. I am currently working out the hdrx20 and what a piece of kit that is.
Finally, someone who understands how to do an amp review. FULL CHORDS, people, like this guy! You have no idea the tonal characteristics of a British amp if you're going to sit and strum clean or diddle ham fisted sounding lead licks. You must slam some full open chords in the style of AC/DC, or some power chord riffs like classic Def Leppard, the Scorpions or some other crunchy rock band. I have wasted more time watching people hamfist out of key lead riffs that give me absolutely no idea how an amp sounds. Good job, CSguitars.
I should pick up a Micro Dark and run it through my early 2000s Bandit 112.
Tried this with my Marshall DSL 100..
Holy Shite! It's a beast!!! Great tone and...
ALL THE GAIN!!!!
I gotta say, running an MXR 10 band in the loop of this amp really gets it to shine..
it never occurred to me that the power and preamp could be separated. I have an old carvin tube amp from the 80s thats been giving me trouble and this seems like a great technique for isolating and diagnosing the source of the problem.
You answered all the questions I had! Thank you for the video!
Just got this amp and I love it. Put a tubescreamer in front of it and it's perfect.
I just tried this running my Micro Terror into the effects loop of my Egnater Tweaker 15. Works like a charm. With an A/B switch I can run my Tweaker clean and switch the Micro Terror on for my distorted sound. I've now essentially got a 2 channel all valve amp :-D
I just tried this using the power section of an egnater vengeance and it sounded awesome.
Useful information: My JCM 900 runs the Direct out and the whole preamp even when on standby, so this works despite having a valve power amp(just remember to keep it on standby!). I know that a lot of other marshalls can do this as well!
also, additionally to the master volume, the presence and resonance controls will work on the "slave" amp(if present), as they are part of the power amp section, not the preamp.
I know this is an old vid but I tried this with MD into Bugera G5 and it sounds pretty good. I probably should have just bought a dark terror if I wanted an all valve amp but still cool that it works.
I hear some awesome potential for double or quad tracking to create massive guitar or even bass tones (given a Lemmy-esque situation) if one were to combine the tones from the solid state and valve power sections in doing so. Cool stuff man, cool stuff.
That's the exact thought I had. They both have great characters, and it would be thick as hell if it were blended!
The next time someone tells you that tube and solid state sound the same, show them this video! It is hard to tell sometimes, I agree, but it is equally hard to explain the difference in words. This explains it pretty goshdarn well.
That being said, I have to admit, I cannot tell the difference with the clean sound. Not surprising, though!
Also try out using a high gain/medium gain with OD solid state into a tube power section. It can get you tighter sounds (it’s what the Rectifier Modern Channel is).
I hate to say it, but it sounded really good on both, just different
Would be great to hear a comparison between the pre of the Micro Dark and Bugera through the same tube power section
That's very easily done. I'll get onto it.
Fantastic! I've actually been rather keen to hear how these hybrid/single valve pre-amps fair against their big brothers on a slightly more level playing field
Very interesting video. Now, I'm sure that if this was an actually Dark Terror into a solid state power section I would be saying the opposite, but I prefer the solid state power section. It has a much tighter response and isn't all fizzy.
I want a micro dark or Peavey Piranha to run into the return on my Silver Jubilee.
Piranha preamp sound awful, really bad in my opinion, go for Orange or a Laney IRT preamp
@@neurobits I think that's the point. I feel like anyone with a Silver Jubilee would just use the preamp provided. It's definitely better than both little amps.
I dig the ss bit!
Buying speakers for amps, is spooky stuff. Watts, more like What? Impedance, more like I don't even knowpedance. But seriously, I don't know electricity stuff, I just whack my guitar strings with a pick, you know... All the gain and that stuff.
Watts are a measure of power. They tell you how much your amp can throw at them before they explode. Speakers would total more Watts than the amp.
Impedance is a measure of how much 'load' the speaker will put on the amp. Amplifiers expect to be burdened by a speaker, it's like attaching a weight to a helium balloon. If you don't have enough weight to pull it down, it's going to rocket off into the sky and you ain't ever getting it back.
So a 100 watt speaker can't handle a 500 watt amp or the other way around... or completely wrong?
On the impedance, so an amp that says 8ohm on the back, wants 8 ohm and only 8ohm or does it need to be smaller than 8ohm or more?
Let's say you have a 100W amp.
It will give out a full 100W when at max volume.
If you have a speaker that is 20W then your amp will rupture it. The amp is too powerful for the speaker.
If you have a 20W amp and a 100W speaker then the amp can never get loud enough to burst the speaker.
On impedance it's best to match the amp and cab. For valve amps it's dangerous to have a lower impedance than the amp expects.
That explains it, and it's not so spooky anymore. Thanks for the help Colin!
Correct, but I'm sure you can see why I decided against attempting to explain it properly and opted for rolling the terms into one.
Cabinet is a load, impedance is a property of that, but for simplicity states that we don't try to explain impedance as it is a tricky concept, and we just look at it in terms of the little number on the cabinet holding the whole amp in place.
It's important to be correct, but often it's more important for people to understand.
so this is how you chain together a bunch of amps to make a wall! Might try this with my 11 Rack through the power amp of my Carvin MTS3200
Hmm, i'm curious. What would happen if you did the same thing, but replace the Bugera with just a simple Power Amp, and sending that to the cabinet? I've only recently heard of power amps, and they seem to act as power sections that have no effect on tone. Was also curious if i could do this with Bias FX from my computer, through my audio interface, into a Power amp and then into a cab, as going form the interface to cab is just too quiet. Idk, just curious lol
I haven't checked out your channel in a while. Your videos have improved soooo much! (Video Quality is on point but you could use a light to make the shots more "colorful", if you know what I mean? The microphone is also really nice. I think the editing style and the shots - for example the shaky shot at the micro dark in the beginning - really improved your videos!
I know this video is quite old now but I feel that the tube power section sounds better for distortion vs solid state sounding better for cleans - This fits with the seemingly common notion that solid state amps are better for clean sounds but it's interesting to hear the same pre-amp through different power sections rather than comparing 2 wholly different amps 🤘😎👍
This was pretty neat "my science project" to see in practice. I'm glad you did it.
Anyway, an amp head I'd like to see reviewed, Carlsbro EVO any of their 15W/30W/60W versions. I have the 15W model, that probably doesn't change, but would be interesting to see how others feel about it.
This video I'll be keeping for my advanced learning and teaching. If my friends want to know.
Could you make a video running the Bugera preamp into the Orange power amp?
bugera send cable into orange return cable thats it
Left a comment on another one of your videos praising how much I love your videos... I STILL DO MAN! I was wondering if it were safe to run the SS amp without a speaker even though its got preamp tubes but, you answered that almost as quickly as I could formulate the question
I was in the process of making a decision for low volume recording and have been battling with the ever growing "valve or solid state" argument. What's interesting is the micro dark and Amps like that were originally disregarded by myself as hybrid Amps seemed like a poor trade off, after all why not have all valve and settle for half and half, but now seeing this I honestly have to say, I think I actually prefer the sound of the solid state/valve hybrid as opposed to the full valve sound... If that's possible... Maybe it's just my ears, Very informative video, it's made me seriously reconsider my options, thank you Colin!
The solid state power amp sounded much better to me both dirty and clean. I'm not sure if the preamp section of the Orange is purely valve-based either. You'll need some solid state gain stages in front of the single 12ax7 to get that kind of distortion.
SwedishGuitarNerd: Absolutely correct. These amps are basically a gimic. There's not enough plate voltage to drive the preamp tube to saturation and no way to cascade a single tube by itself unless transistors are involved. And a 20 watt solid state power amp circuit board can be ordered online and had for less than 10 dollars. It might be a fun diy project though.
I don't really understand what you're saying. With a low plate voltage, it is easier to saturate the tube! And what do you mean that there is no way to cascade a single tube? I don't really get it. Aside from that, you are right in assuming that the preamp contains also solid state elements. In fact, it just uses opamps. The power stage is also a simple single power op-amp.
Yes there are 4 (I think) stages, only one with tube. Good enough for me, in fact, I'm thinking on avoid all-valve amp, I want valves on preamp, but consistent, care-free (and cheap) power stage.
The mids really shined when all tubes which I thought would be the opposite. I have a Micro Terror and changed the Tube. May want to do this in a future video. I did 12ax7 to a 12au7 warmer tones.
Colin, do a Bugera G20 infinum review please. Grate video and experiment. Massive difference.
Love it - thanks mate
I don't think the videos production is altered. The cab is mic'd and you are hearing as it would be recorded or through a live PA amplified. Guitars have different sound pickups, the players hands and playing style effect the sound as well. I seriously doubt the Orange Micro Dark Terrors will vary too much in sound.
the valve power sounded clearer with a fuller sounding range whereas the solid state sounded muddy in the distortion and thin in the clean.
I use the Micro Dark preamp and feed it into a Vox Pathfinder 10. Coolest couple!
The micro dark doesn't need a speaker cabinet attached to run, the power amp section is solid state and that's what needs the load. The only amp that needs a speaker in this case would be the amp you're running the micro dark into
The tube runs at starved plate voltage, it's much more a pair of clipping diodes than a tube. The 4 gain stages in the MD are all TL072 opamps. The MD amp is an automotive/boom box stereo amp chip. The headphones "cab sim DI" is a very old talking-toy chip wired with the chips data sheet circuit, as is the car stereo chip with two of four channels strapped to mono The only thing Orange designed was the circuit around the opamps, the tilt tone control, and the input buffer of the of the FX loop, all unremarkable. The PCB is notable. Given it's guts the only thing special about the MD is how good it sounds given the electronic circumstances. There's a reason why this costs as much as a guitar pedal, it basically is one that has the added feature of driving a speaker.
That was interesting. I'd like to see you do the stereo setup you were talking about on your other Orange Micro amp vid.
Colin, this is a really cool idea. Tones were night and day - while the SS done wasn't exactly bad, it was pretty harsh and cutting - would probably appeal to Dimebag fans! The SS cleans were just slightly more brittle and glassy sounding which I think I slightly preferred.
The first modification that I ever made to any of my gear was taking my "Bassola 15" that came with my first Dean bass guitar and putting a "full range" car audio speaker from DS18 into it. I use it with my guitar and it generally sounds terrible with or without distortion, but sometimes the "off" sound that I get from it is nice if I am trying to play with a lot of distortion and/or fuzz. Setting the EQ is painful though.
Hey man. That's a good idea of using the terror as the pre amp. I also have tried the same method with Randall RD 5 which also has dummy load.
I'm surprised at the number of comments that prefer the SS sounds, add I definitely prefer the valve sounds
With distortion the valve power section sounded like a hive of bees. I much prefer the raunchiness and dirtiness of the solid state power section. With cleans, however, the valve power section sounded sweet and smooth like honey (probably produced by the bees during distortion).
Only hear a slight bit of change between the solid state and valve power sections, solid state being a touch thinner, and the valve a bit warmer.
Where would you recommend putting effects pedals in this type of setup?
That was really cool
I just got an old Peavey Encore 65 from a friend of mine, I might try running my all-solid state Orange Crush Pro 120 into it like this. Never seen an amp with solid state preamp and valve power, so it may be interesting
Really clears the nasal sound up
I always seem to prefer the bright clean from solid-state amps, but the further the gain gets cranked the better the valve distortion sounds.
i have done something similar with the line 6 hd floor unit..sounded like shit just about anyway i ran it..but if a ran it's output straight into the effects loop return jack and it actually sounded good or about as good as line 6 is going to sound...bypassing the preamp and eq section and just going straight to the power section made a huge difference
with ss power section there no tranformers to distort plus amp up current so not likely to distort. for value amp you got that transformer that distorts when pushed hard giving cross over distortion which makes it sound harsher. I certain that the wrong impedance will fry output transformer at least
Can you make a video about de difference vetween a guitar cable and a speaker cable? Would love to see that!
You CAN run a OLD fender bassman ( 60,s) like this, it WILL NOT kill the output transformer but WILL wear out tubes quicker but does sound INSANELY good......Just UNLOAD the amp ( no speaker, and use the EXTERNAL SPEAKER JACK as a SLAVE OUT or line level.....it WORKS! I heard this is how EVH got one of his first sounds...
I was expecting the valve version to have a more brown sound and more harmonics. I didn't hear that so much. What I actually heard was just the valve was brighter and more clear while the solid-state was dark and missing a lot of high end. Perhaps the power section of the microdark features an aggressive low pass filter that filters off before 5k?
My god thats godlike
why notrun the micro dark in the front of the amp to have more EQ options
The valve power section would probably sound better if it was EQed differently. Now it sounded too bright/fizzy and the solid state power section just sounded more pleasant to the ears.
Question: do I need to connect a cabinet to the Orange Micro Dark? Since you mentioned at last that never leave a valve amp without connecting a cab. I sort of hear you said it is safe for the orange not having a cab, but not quite sure.
Nice idea.One unconnected question.My MT has orange power led,my MD has blue.I like it but seem to recall you have an aversion to blue power lights?Did you swap it out yourself or are Orange making it with Orange lamp now?Just curious.
3:16 Is that "I Want It That Way"?
From what i've read, that's how Metallica started using the Mesa Boogies. They used their preamps into the power section of Marshall heads.
I don't know to me the solid state sounds better in this case
I use them with a 4x12 at quarter vol its enough to jam with
I thought they both sounded good. Different, but equally good.
Valves are not always better, and this video proves. I've tried a few Randall solid state amps and I've yet to hear that amount of chug, articulation and low end when it comes to high gain.
Do I see correctly in the video that you have nothing connected to the speaker out and the headphone out?
I'm asking because I would like to connect a Cabsim pedal to my Micro Darks FX send and disconnect the speaker to play silently. According to the manual you need to have a load on either the headphone or speaker output and I don't see why, as the power amp is solid state.
what a Marshall VS100 and a bugera 1960? the Marshall is a hybrid from the 90's and the bugera is a 1959 plexi clone.
TBH it sounded better with its own SS power stage. But that's to be expected, right? They were designed and tuned to work together.
I noticed at 1.44 you have a mallard valve , in your amp , is there much of a sound difference, from the stock JJ ?
Solid state power section is 👌🏼
very cool application of the loop / master volume trick! what would constitute a dummy load for a tube/ valve amp? (sorry, obviously i'm from the usa) get the concept, never seen the application. idk why'd you do this but i have an old randall rg100 es solid-state amp so could i run the randall into another tube amp to get a different tone from my randall or would the universe implode and just do bad things? of course i could use the preamp out into say my fender twin's power section just to get decent rock/ metal tones but that's no fun and unnecessary because i have a couple cabs. cool video meing, got me thinking about all kinds of nefarious things to try lol! cheers!
FINALLY UNDER 301 club! Now I'm done trying.
Transistors can self destruct through thermal runaway with no load also. I've seen it hundreds of times and heve repaired numerous solid state amps due to a load lacking. Especially when higher frequencies such as rf spectrum also. The amp looks for the load and when there is none, standing waves build up in the system and will change the percieved impedance of the unit creating heat. This heat makes the transistor flow more drawing more amps. P=I×E. So if voltage stays the same, and amperage increases, well more power is wasted as heat energy. And so the cascade of destruction begins... Then it's hey chuck, can ya fix my amp? Also a bad speaker with too low impedance or a severe impedance missmatch will cause issues too. So, silicon is not indestructible either. It IS however a little more forgiving than glass in some aspects. But overall, jist make sure that no matter what style your amp is , it has the proper load.
Why not plugging the bugera preamp section into the orange power section?
No idea if you’re still active on this video but I have a few questions
The orange micro dark manual recommends that when it’s on you always have either a speaker or headphones connected to it. Why? Will not doing this damage the amp? I was using it as a preamp into my interface before learning of this issue. Would just plugging a 1/4” adapter into the phones jack of the micro dark just disable the power amp and negate this issue? Is it a non issue to begin with and just something that orange says to do just as a useless precaution?
I actually did just that, and ran a Micro dark into a '75 ORANGE OR120...
I like the solid state power amp in this case the micro dark just doesn't have the preamp to give a good sound to the massive power amp a 100 watt head has
I just want to say that the solid state section sounds brightless because the volume of the micro dark is too rolled off. That treble loss is not because of the power section being solid state.