I don't think it's a feature of fighting games, it's more like daigo is a genetic freak who dedicated his life to being the best. fighting games require an insane level of mechanics in terms of speed and precision AND good reaction times, both of which degrade heavily with age.
@@karayi7239 Honestly, I don't think things are as reaction times based as you think. I believe things are more about life taking people away from people's time in games the most and maybe certain neuroplascitity to learn as a smaller cause. I don't think until about 40, you need to be concerned about reaction times, but a lot of people think now that you turn 25 and can't compete in esports. That's not true and isn't true in any sports.
@@Mykulveli While it is true that reaction times peak at 24, I don't think the difference is game changing as I made it sound. I actually take back that daigo is a genetic freak because it takes away from the amount of hard work and dedication he put in. It's shocking how he didn't get a career ending wrist injury cuz this is a HUGE reason why pros retire.
@@karayi7239 Yeah I wasn't necessarily calling out you because I can't glean all your views from your short post but I think there is that sentiment in the broad gaming community. Daigo is definitely something else, no doubt.
@@karayi7239 u definitely need reactions but these oldheads have built muscle memory of move animations for decades. they have in depth game matchup knowledge and can still compete at the highest level which isnt something you could say in MOBAs or FPS games. Same thing with a legacy fighter like Tekken, some of the best players are approaching 40 and can still wipe the floor with up and coming players
I think with the last part and how Tokido being more quiet compared to Punk, is really more of a difference in language. I think for me Tokido once said that if a Street Fighter Alien came down and only one person could be chosen to fight he wanted to be that guy and that has sat with me more than anything Punk has ever done but that message was from a Japanese tweet from 7 years ago. But like you said it’s really preference but I do think a language barrier does contribute to Tokido or any foreign player (with the exception of Daigo) not being talked about as much as Punk was
I agree with the language barrier. It's also about what we see as westerners. We don't see the results as easily of Tokido mentoring players or how he influences his local scene. I'm positive he does but I just can't know. But there is that thing that Punk says himself "they see us win too much it's normal". Tokido kinda suffers from that ironically enough lol. Him getting st at a major is cool but the fact that he'd get 2nd at like everything else somehow goes under our Radar
And the guy completely ignored tokidos most emotional moments after losses and wins with his two FT10s against daigo. Or they were FT15s... Anyway, legendary moments.
I definitely agree. It's too easy to make up narratives and opinions because it's almost impossible to do proper research in the FGC. The CPT records from SFV and SFIV have been erased from the Capcom website because SF6 just came out
Yeah that was the interesting thing about really looking back. Tokido is clearly the most dominant player BUT Punk took off basically a whole year if not more. Really makes you wonder where he'd have ended up if he kept that competitive drive
In term of influence I would have said MenaRD. He litteraly help and sponsored the WHOLE Domican Rep region so that they could be put on the map. With new events like Game Over, or new players makin waves like Crossover and Caba. Doing that from scratch is more influential imo. I wonder what are y’all thought about it
I'm Dominican and I love this man so much. Even got a picture with him at a local tournament. It's amazing what he has done for fighting games in our country and he'll forever be number 1 in my heart.
I agree his influence is huge. I mostly didn't mention it because honestly, his invitational results alone weren't enough to carry him all the way to the level of punk and tokido. He was still way behind. Winning 2 capcom cups is insane, thought to be almost impossible even. But he just isn't consistent at any other events when it comes to getting top 3. That's not to at his influence is less than the other guys', it just didn't fit in the message of this video
@@qmanchu ooh I understand now it is true that while he was consistent it wasn't on the same level as Punk and Murder Face. But I think that it should have been mentionned noneless because it cause an "injustice" on his side in the video, like he did nothing even tho we all know how much he did for the fgc. To the point Fuudo was playing Birdie too. But It doesn't invalidate your point in your video in the grand scheme of thing your analisys still make sense and watching it was cool for me
@Celrok production yeah I should've been more clear and established that I was moving on from Mena at that point. He's an immensely impactful player. He's built up so much in just a few years. I meant him no disrespect and if I felt the video wasn't already too long, I'd have said more about him. Maybe in the future of SF6
I dunno... I think the argument made against Tokido's influence was a little flawed. The video even presented his most famous "Fighting Games are something, sooo.... Great". I remember watching that and it resonated with me in a way more profound and moving than anything else in the FGC tbh. Its the reason i went to EVO the next year, and reignited my love of the beautiful grind😊
The big thing about influence that we can actually measure is how the game changed in response to a certain player. Punk was a driving force for everyone to change their playstyles where Tokido didn't have that much influence over how the game was actually played. The other way we can measure it is by the players each directly influenced and the results of those players. Punk has directly led to the qualifications of at least 3 players to Capcom Cup whereas Tokido's students aren't as prevalent. Now that could be because of how the Japanese scene is open for everyone to learn from everyone and is possibly flawed. That's why I leaned into the first thing about how Punk changed the way the whole world played. That's really the whole argument of why Punk would outdo Tokido there. I would've said more directly about Tokido but the video was already so long
I think the one thing you missed about hte influence metric is SO MANY of the best runs that we saw, fujimura probably having the scariest peak, punk insane year, infiltration the main metric htat finally settled them as the TOP SHIT was that they wehre able to pass tokido. He was the benchmark not for being good not for being great but for being the best and that influence passes all language barriers nad is crazy
I stan tokido but it's so true that punk inspires people. I've genuinely thought before "damn i wish i had those footsies" and also about some of his quotes so often.
outside of statistical results, Tokido had that, "DAMN I JUST BEAT HIM" factor and Punk had that edge that we all were jealous of xD These are reasons why their GOATS, when their status proceeds them in the game they played.
Punk is da Magneto of da FGC, He is quite literally a genius of fighting games, similar to Kizzie kay and Justin Wong, And the Mr.Fantasic of all fighting games he lays his hands on SonicFox, Then we got quite literally the Spiderman of da FGC aka SMUG. My SF5 CFN is SmugDaigoHamza on ps4 and my Guilty gear strive is PunkSmugHamza on ps4. My SF6 is Allahu-Akbar on Ps5. I got to platinum quite quickly, I kept think I was the Gold rank because I wasnt paying attention. Then I was thinking why am I fighting Platinum rank dudes when I am only silver rank? Like an idiot I kept looking at their rank and not my own. I got my ass handed to me by some players in ranked and got smack into Gold rank. Then got dawg walked a whole bunch in casuals 11 times by a God dang kimberly player then dawg walked by a Manon players. Then I jumped on ranked again lost so more then I called it a day. Sometimes it's best to take time out of ranked in casual matches and just lab and chill da fuck out in world tour mode. Because going on a losing streak in ranked really can hurt. Sft I give 10/10 overall but still prefer Sf5 gameplay.
@@MuhammadAli-xw4yc You know nothing about the fgc. Punk gets washed in many finals, he def struggles against tokido and many top players such as M.crimson and pros from japan. Not to mention he can never beat infiltration. Punk is highly overrated. Infiltration, Higuichi, Tokido, Mcrimson and many others wash him easy.
@@kelvin303 You sound emotional my dude. They all wash each other. I have watched tons of their livestreams, in their battle lounges, Also you arrogant punk, I watched Mr.Crimson cook up Idom,punk,that world class zeku player dude from britain at dat tournment in europe. But a few days later Punk cooked Mr.Crimson for free in long ass set. I have fought in offline tournments in arcades in 1992 in Nagoya, roppongi and all over tokyo. Dude don't be so arrogant. I have been involved in fight game community since Street fighter 1. Young bucks nowadays huh.
That's not what the "eye test" is. The "eye test" in sports is whether someone who has a good eye for good players can tell whether the player is good. Whether Tokido is influential or not isn't related to the "eye test".
U HIT THE NAIL with Influence. That's why in NBA we talk about Michael Jordan and Kobe, but we don't talk as much about Tim Duncan that has the same number of rings as Kobe or Bill RUssel that as more rings than anybody will ever have. Or wilt Chamberlain with soo many records we KNOW it's impossible to beat. But it doesn't matter, Influence plays a BIG part and that's something Michael Jordan has and Wilt no matter how many record or Bills rings will ever have. Michael Jordan has a global influence in the sport known as basketball, and only players later touched near that level. Kobe, LeBron. Tim Duncan might be just as great as Kobe, but he doesn't have the influence.
I started watching street fighter because of Punk. I don't even play the game or fighting games in general. I learned about Mena Rd and Tokido AFTER Punk opened the gateway for me.
The 18 minute mark definetly reminded me of the Armada vs Mang0 Melee GOAT argument which I find is funny that another game boils down to the same set of factors
Yeah, in my opinion it's Armada hands down BUT Mango still playing to this day at top level is so staggeringly impressive that him being the GOAT makes sense too
Daigo is probably the greatest Street Fighter player of all time. He's been at the top of almost every game competitively, even as he grows older and the games grow more popular. He's a legend without a doubt but not a Top 5 SFV player. Maybe top 10 at best but I'd have to do a lot of research there to be sure
@@qmanchu Daigo was probably top 15 in SFV. He didn't gel with SFV like Tokido gelled with SFV. The switch up was instantaneous that you couldn't blame age. Daigo was arguably top 1-3 at end of SF4, and immediately switched to outside of top 15. On the other hand, Tokido was probably top 25-30 in SF4 or even top 15 and immediately gelled with SFV to where he was top 2. New games switch up rankings for a lot of players. Hence why I have a lot of respect for players who have been a top player for so many SF games, where they have to abandon their top in the game status, and re earn it. We'll see how SF6 switches things up. Daigo at the very least already looks more comfortable beating top pros than the early part of SFV.
What i ask you is, if you qualifie to capcom and prepare yourself to play Who you would study to face? I think the answer for many Will be Tokido, Punk and other that did well in capcom pro tour, that was why players like Mena, Idom or even Gachikun has more chance to win capcom cup.
Amazing video ! I like that you try to be the most objective possible. One for sf4 would be great too . Thank for the good work. Ps: sorry for my English . I speak french.
I think Punk had an infiltration in 2012 aura around him. There was a moment where it felt like he couldn’t lose, making many international players sweat.
I'd agree with you if Mena had won anything else. I can agree he's been the strongest SFV player in the world on those given nights, but he's also failed to qualify for Capcom Cup, not won any other major CPT tournament, and has a losing record against Punk/Tokido. Objectively, capcom cup was weighted over everything else in the video, and he still falls short because that's kind of all he has
I think the issue is after the initial scandal, 2 or 3 more scandals popped up and it doesn't look like any brand wants to be associated with that right now. He's been in online CPT events tho so I guess that ban is up. But it's up to offline tourneys to let him back individually
In SFV, it's Tokido... Daigo, Tokido and Infiltration have the most Tier 1 tournament wins in Street Fighter, as well as runner-ups. They also have the most Tier 2 wins. If you compare MenaRD resume, it's paper thin. It's not even remotely close to Tokido. Tokido has 16 Tier 1 wins in just SFV alone. MenaRD has 4 in his ENTIRE career including all other fighting games.
for my money, daigo is always going to be the fighting game god. However, that's bias from me growing up watching daigo. Tokido and punk likely have more influence these days. In the case of street fighter V I feel like tokido is way better in every regard though punk is a close runnerup.
Daigo is the GOAT of Street Fighter in general in my opinion. I wanna do research to see if that's objectively true but I think it is. I don't think many if any come close
I do think the influence part, is HEAVLY biased towards the west. If you ask people in Japan and maybe even just nearby Asian countries, they would pick Daigo or Tokido most likely and their influence in Japan and maybe even the Asian SF5 scene in general, is much greater than any of the western players. As a western person who has lived in Asia, and now lives in South Korea, I know that sometimes, even the most famous people in our eyes, are not well known in Japan or Korea and these countries also have a LOT of pride in their players as well in every sport. The fact that Tokido and even Daigo, are being talked about as the GOAT of SF5 by us westerners, shows how much influence they actually have and how good they are. Especially since they can’t even really communicate with us the same way someone like Punk, who is a native english speaker, can either, as they mostly speak in Japanese as can be seen from their social media for example. I recommend watching some of Tokidos videos, then you can see how much influence he really has in Japan at least. So in the end, my pick would be Tokido, in terms of statistics he is the GOAT, and in term of influence, I do not think he falls behind Punk in anyway, especially if you look at Japan. Liked the video though. But do think the influence metric is a bit skewed, as it is heavily western biased. In the end though, they all gave us some good SF5 to watch.
The section is definitely biased but the only point I really want people to walk away from with this is how small Japan actually is lol. If Punk had this hold on the entire world AND Japan, where as Tokido could have a similar hold on Japan and less of the western world, the western world is so much bigger than a few small islands. And that's not to diminish what those players have done. The biggest thing is Punk changed the way the game was played across the globe, influencing even the likes of Tokido himself! It didn't really go the other way around. That's really all I meant by that section. I hope it's clear that even if I think Punk had more influence over the game itself, Tokido is in my opinion the undisputed greatest
@@qmanchu Yeah I see your point, still I personally think it’s hard to talk about influence because you can’t say Japan is small in a context like this. For example, despite being 1/3rd of the US population and only having roughly 21% of the US GDP, Japan still manages to be the 3rd largest video game market (only about $14B behind the US) and the 2nd largest music market behind the US. So size doesn’t really matter, especially in something like fighting games where the scene is so region specific (e.g Korea and Tekken, KoF and South America). Now add the fact that not all of Japan, Europe or America plays video games, and that the series itself is Japanese and existed a decade before in Japan before eventually coming to the US. So it has much more history in Japan, and the regional SF scene has a lot of support from Capcom and large companies, teams and the community. Even arcades, which are still popular in Japan, bought SF5 machines and now buy SF6 machines. So Japan might very well have the largest SF community. Of course, it’s hard to know for sure things like this, but don’t think the difference in reach or influence is that big, especially looking at metrics like followers, views and history. The regional scene in Japan is really impressive and stacked. Influence might even be in Tokidos favor for all we know. It’s really hard to say for a fact how much influence they’ve had, especially without any inside knowledge of the scene, especially in Japan. Unless they are a player like Knee or Faker for example. This is kind of a slippery slope, but I definitely think that Punk and Tokido are the two in contention for SF5, with my choice being Tokido as well. But I can definitely see why people would pick Punk, it’s well deserved too
@tigerchuu2148 yupp and I mostly agree but the biggest point I wanted to make was influence over the game, not influence over people since you can't rly measure that. The influence over the game that Punk yielded was people slowing the game down and looking for confirms. Everyone started doing that once he began winning. Tokido's biggest influence over the game was people switching to Akuma and still not achieving his results. So Punk's influence affecting the top players of Japan itself and the best players globally is mostly what I mean here. Tokido didn't have that, which is why I mentioned Japan being small was important. The other point I mention is we can directly trace 3 Capcom Cup qualifiers back to Punk and I admitted in the video that we can't know for sure about Tokido in this regard mostly cuz Japan's FGC is very different than ours. So I admit the bias there. But basically not only did Punk change the way the game was played, he also directly influenced the outcomes of multiple Capcom Cups via people he trained or sponsored. That's heavy influence over the game, not people. If that makes sense? Me saying "Nobody wants to play like Tokido" was definitely an inflammatory thing to put in that I regret cuz it takes away from my main point haha
The "Influence" section is completely irrelevant to the topic. We're looking for the greatest SFV player of all time, not the greatest SFV influencer of all time. Only results matter, and Punk has not had the results lately to be in the conversation.
i agree that the "influence" section is wack but instead should be considered an "overall skills" section. like how good are the players in game, how dominante are their wins, do they win from losers or winners more often, things like that. if you were to consider raw ability, i believe it's punk>idom>tokido>mena. but also for an overall career evaluation, you can't pretend like their past successes don't matter as much just because they aren't performing that well currently
Lol that's totally fine! But you realize that's just to account for things we can't account for in the last years. Plus as a send off to SFV, it's important to bring attention to the fact that the game wouldn't be played the way it was if not for Punk. My GOAT is still Tokido, but I can't really discredit people who say Punk
By individual achievements, I think it has to be Tokido because of his results throughout the lifespan of SFV while being in the strongest region but if we're equating greatness to who influenced and changed how SFV was played, it's Punk. How he played the game right from his arrival was so different than what everyone else was doing that it straight up feels that he's playing a different game altogether. He presented a completely different blueprint on how SFV should be played and opened the eyes of many on what was actually possible that the Japanese FGC had massive gatherings dedicated to replicating and trying to figure out his style. If you compare how SFV was played at the highest level before and after Punk made it big, it's like night and day.
Lol daigo hold my beer.... daigo had thousands of trophy that's why even Tokido and God's respect him... He got guilty gear champions sf 2 3 4 and alpha vampire savior/dark stalkers trophies
Exactly. And I don’t think the Japanese did that for any other player. They called punk the best in the world.. I don’t think they did that for anyone. Even Nemo came out and challenged punk to a ft10 cause in Nemos words “punk is easily the best player in the world”
That was the goal. Just to be realistic and as objective as possible. Going into it, I didn't actually perceive Tokido as THAT strong over time. I knew he had his movements but no, he's always been a menace. Glad you enjoyed
@@qmanchu How didnt you notice? Two back to back evo finals, capcom cup final, Eleague champion, first or second in almost all topanga leagues. And now in your video you informed me that he was top 3 in all seasons of the capcom pro tour.
If we only consider results nobody would come close, but I think that at their peak Punk is more virtually invincible. I'm a tokido fan and I know that he has bad matchups like Gachikun' Rashid or Kichpa's Gief, unlike Punk that sometimes seems to have no gap to beat him. Thats why i think any of both can be the goat
@saraiva luis das neves at the time I noticed, obviously. But after like 3 years of no offline competition, recency bias got in the way. The specifics escaped me was all. I also wasn't into SFV competitions until around 2017 when Punk was already on the scene. I entered the fighting game genre via competitive smash haha
Great video besides the "influence" part. It just shows a big USA bias on your side and the fact that it's the final section of the video just seems like a cop out to put your fav in, kinda left an bad taste in my mouth in an otherwise nice video.
I feel like people are interpreting that the influence part means Punk won over Tokido in this video lol. It's literally just there as an extra point to look at. There's no preference to Punk here. It's just important, as a goodbye to SFV, to talk about how Punk was able to change the way the WORLD plays the game. That's all lol. I say myself that my pick is Tokido here but saying Punk wouldn't be crazy in my eyes is all
Tokido with Akuma was peak of SFV. But sadly Capcom just can't stop nerf Akuma and he pretty much struggle to keep up. Menat was OD at that time and his Akuma trashed so bad and it was so disheartening. He forced to change main. His Urien and Luke never as good. Tokido just Akuma and Akuma is him period.
Oh hell yeah, his Akuma reign of terror was insane! I would've said more about that but the video was already so long, didn't really fit. Tokido's influence over people switching to that character is probably unrivaled except for the uptick of people playing Poison after Idom maybe. But even then, Tokido is still prolly more so
Check out my "Modern Tier Lists Don't Matter" and "Are you carried in ggst" videos. They're older videos on this channel but probably close to what you're looking for
@@qmanchu i know you’ve covered all angles in analyzing this topic, do you think this head to head record is significant. I certainly think so. Thanks for the content.🙏🏽
@liluziBurt667 in general, yeah head to head is important. But it's not feasible to use for this context. I chose the metrics I did because they're easy to measure and also compare year to year. If I did head 2 head, I'd have to break it all down by year because some years one player dominated the other. Generally, it'd be too much work but it also would become murky and confusing quickly
He had a legal dispute with his wife at the time of domestic abuse. The case was made public and he was let go from his team and CPT banned him. Then when things looked like he could've been let back in, he was found to be involved with rigging tournaments. And then after all that he went on stream and said a lot of racially charged things for some reason. So it just seemed like there was a mountain of issues and bad PR
As all americans you think that because you are or were influenced by Punk everbody in the world was too. Who is the goat?! Tokido or Punk. Picking Tokido or Picking Punk you are not wrong. They both have something where they are better than all other players. Tokido more consistence, Punk in his best almost unstoppble and they prove that along many years.
I think each CHARACTER should have a rating. Rather than flat out the best player it should be who is the best with each character because their abilities are so different. My favorite CHARACTER in the entire franchise back to 1987 is URINE and the competitor I most admire is NEMO because he is arguably the best player of URIEN. Diago is arguably the best GUILE player but he is NOT the best at the other characters (he can beat ME with any character and with one hand behind his back,I just mean not the absolute best).
I put Tokido over Punk by leaps and bounds. Metrics determine who's best WAY more than just boastful bragging and whatever influence you can bring up. The thing about your examples far as Jordan and Tiger Woods, they were the greatest because of METRICS and STATS in their prime. No one was over them. Much more like Tokido than Punk.
“How many people wanna play like Tokido?” Feel like it’s really unreasonable to use this “metric”, it’s EXTREMELY western-biased. Punk and Mena’s influence in Japan/Asian playerbase would be incomparable to Tokido. We see a clip of Daigo praising here, but it should go without saying Daigo would have plenty of praise for Tokido as well.
It does go without saying. But what does need saying is that Punk did change the entire landscape of the game. Tokido dominated the competition for the entire game's life and yet he would mostly hop on transformations as the game progressed. He defined Akuma for a while but when he switched to Urien and Luke, many, including the Japanese didn't consider it a transformative choice from him. That's really all it comes down to. It's also not the most important metric. I literally say that I wouldn't call Punk the GOAT, but it makes sense to me why many do. That's all
Just because you're loud it doesnt make you worth more. Takido is objectively the greatest of all time. Punk is appreciated though and a strong second. Good logical conclusion
Him being loud has nothing to do with the fact that sfv as a competitive game changed after his year of domination in a tangible way that persisted till the end. Not just in America, but literally the whole world. That's an important factor to some and that's all that section addresses lol. I agree Tokido is objectively the strongest. And the video literally reflects that. As I say in the video, If someone told me Punk was their GOAT, I wouldn't really have issue with it though because he's still done something nobody else has
I scratched off 3 with Dominican dude (forgot his name), Punk and Infiltration. Kept the other 3 in Daigo, Idom and Tokido. Daigo is a long time veteran in the fgc. Also an amazing player in Street fighter that tends to bring hype matches at times. Like the Aegis sweep strings with his Guile. Idom seems to win so much. Almost always winning top tournaments with even everyone listed in it for a while actually. Tokido has been around for a while as well. Was super scary in the beginning of sf5. Barely losing. Like almost not at all. Now others can take a turn winning. But he can still win and is still super strong.
Whoooaaa dude your comment about Tokido's influence is wayyy off. The amount of times I've seen the "Fighting games are something so great" clip mentioned, as well as people talking about his dedication and dominance over the game is unreal. He's also still the player people associate the most with Akuma even though he hasn't played the character in a long time. I'm not arguing that Punk isn't the GOAT of SFV, but I just think that point was a bit disingenuous.
It's not disingenuous to say that Punk changed the way the game is played more than Tokido did. It's just literally true. I'm not saying Tokido doesn't have a massive influence. He does. But Punk just wins out overall. Tokido has that quote, sure. But Punk's got many of quotes that get recited to this day as well. And when you see Karin who do you think of? Punk. So if those are your biggest wins for Tokido, Punk is right there with him in terms of those. AND he's got more like the players he's coached to top level and the fact that he changed the game globally. There's really no point where I'm being disingenuous in what I'm saying about Tokido's influence, there's just a bigger picture here
@@qmanchu But I said that I'm not arguing that Punk is the GOAT, and I do think that he had more influence than Tokido (in the west). My only point was that I felt you didn't represent Tokido's influence as fairly as I think you could have. I still enjoyed the video overall, just had that one nitpick.
@Cezkarma Gaming considering Tokido got the spotlight over most of the video and it's the longest one I've made, didn't really make sense to mention the specifics, same way I didn't say as much about Punk in the earlier sections. That's really all there is to it. Mena RDxs influence is also massive in the LATAM world but I couldn't represent that here either unfortunately
bro for me that "eye test" metric is BS, thats cultural difference also language barrier . if you exchange their places/body, results would be very veeeeeerrryyyyyy different
Some of it is language barrier! But a lot of it isn't. We're very aware of Punks relationship with CJ truth and Nephew and we're very aware of Daigo's relationships with Kawano and other players who have learned directly from him. Or even Momochi's students like Johnny. The language barrier doesn't stop us from knowing that and there's no japanese players as notable as CJ and Nephew who have come from Tokido as far as I've been able to tell. Behind closed doors, maybe there's a relationship that was somehow never made public, but I think we'd know by now. Secondly, Punk's influence over the way we play the game is global. Tokido's influence might go as far as his Akuma basically making players switch because it was THAT strong. But with Punk, even Japanese players have gone on record saying they wanted to adapt his style or at least adapt to it. Lastly, eye test thing, Tokido was winning for a long time. He made himself the villain in a way. From the beginning of the game, he was number 2 if he wasn't number 1 and eventually, that got boring. He paved the way for Punk and Mena to become narratives. They became players poised to take him down, so we'd finally not have to see Tokido win lol. That's why the eye test wasn't in his favor. Whenever he was in grands, many were hoping someone would actually challenge him
Just wanna preface this that I'm not being sarcastic or anything here: if that was the case, you could have a 20% win rate of tournaments and only win Capcom Cup and still be the GOAT?
@@qmanchu if I win key matches in football but lose some matches Aswell but still make it to the super bowl and win, are the other teams better because they beat me? there's only two key matches to win in fighting games, that's capcom cup and evo. I put capcom cup higher though on the list.
@ihavetubes that's not really true though. Those are the biggest but there's been tons of major tournaments of similar level to evo. And even if not, Tokido getting 2nd at capcom cup while also winning almost 20 majors throughout the games few years of offline competing definitely outweighs 2 key tournaments. Because you can't just factor in Mena winning 2. He failed to get top 3 of so many of the same tournaments Tokido won
@@qmanchu if you asked pros which tournaments they rather win the most its capcom cup and evo and that says a lot about those main events and the ones outside of it.
@@ihavetubes yea, and Tokido has won an Evo and got 2nd at the capcom cup that Mena won. So by what you're saying, he's only behind by a little bit. If you then count his literal dozens of other wins, he kinda dwarfs Mena with only 2 major wins under his belt. Tokido also just smoked Mena at Topanga like a week ago
Totally, and there's a lot to be said about that. It's just hard to contextualize that when those are his only 2 big wins. He's literally got the best capcom cup record and it's insane that he could win it twice
Infiltration would've easily been the goat if not for false allegations and trigger happy TO's bending the knee to mindless mobs and having too much pride to admit when they were wrong.
Punk revolutionized how the game was played. Tokido had the consistency. MenaRD has the 2 capcom cups with the second one being completely dominant (He made Zhen who everyone got bodied by look like a complete scrub)
The whole video was an excuse to praise Punk maaaaaan. Watching Tokido was something else the whole time SF5 competitive scene existed, Punk is good, but not even close to him.
Literally 75% of the video is about how Tokido dominated and there was nobody like him. 2 of the 3 sections highlight him. But one, 3 minute section about Punk makes the whole video about him? I don't get how that's the takeaway other than it being at the end lol. Also to say Punk wasn't close really isn't the case. Punk was still by far the 2nd best player in SFV in terms of results and that's including him taking almost a full year off of touring the pro circuit and placing highly in other games. It's not an excuse but if I wanted to praise him, there's much more to say. Him objectively changing the way the game was played globally is worth talking about when considering the greatest but I even say in the video that I wouldn't call him the greatest. Punk is an amazing player and he deserves to be talked about in the discussion, even if I don't think he is the GOAT
This is hard one: Tokido= had a great run but it seems like he disappeared at the games end. Infil= legal troubles ended him early, probably would have dominated for years. Punk= seem like he stopped trying at the tail end and was broken when he lost to Tokido. idom= if he won Evo this past year would be a easy pick as he dominated in the games prime time. Rd= he won when it counted and probably didnt have the ability to attend alot of tournies. So i dont knopw who LOL. If i had to pick= PUNK, he made me wanna watch the game and his actions. Here is a secret- i never bought the game myself or played itccuz of how capcom bouched the game.
nah, tokido was really great and got lots of crazy results and plays on tournament, but it was when he was playing Akuma. Tokido's Akuma IS the greatest akuma of all time, but then he cooled down and nothing much came from him on the past years. Ans in my opinion, when we are talking about the greatest in something, we have to look to something that someone did and nobody else did, and then we have MenaRD, the only one to have 2 capcom cups under his belt, handsdown the greatest.
My issue with saying it's Mena because of that achievement is that he's not really won anything else. Consistency is just as key as hype achievements I think. And Mena, while being the most consistent Cacpom Cup winner, also didn't even qualify for it in 2019, the same year Punk got 2nd. I think the shiny CC titles are a tad distracting from how he was as an actual overall player. But that's my opinion obviously
Not only is Tokido the GOAT but I honest to god believe he is the best fighting game player on the planet. Much more than the likes of SonicFox, Daigo or Justin Wong. He's godlike in pretty much every game he sets his mind to, even if it's something mad difficult like KOF 13.
Yeah he very well might be. He seems to pick up any game at a high level within hours lol Edit: fun fact, Tokido is and has been a high level KOF player for ages. His gamer tag is even a KOF reference
@Kelvin Blount it's not really hands down when he hasn't competed years at the top level. He even lost to NL while trying to qualify for Capcom Cup so at the end of SFV, he wasn't even the best Korean player :/
@@qmanchu Lost to NL by using a weak character “ED”. Not to mention he can still make it to the grandfinals doing this in many tournaments. Players are afraid of Infiltration he knows it thats why he said it on this stream. Capcom doesn’t want him to be the face of the fgc. Punk never beat infiltration btw, and tokido gets washed most of the time. Infiltration can make even the worst characters look amazing, im sure if he were to play/main high tier characters he would destroy everyone in the fgc everytime. Download complete. Show me a video where Punk beats infiltration. Infiltration is hands down the best SFV player of all time real ones know this.
@Kelvin Blount Punk and Infiltration only played like one time ever and it was at WNF so I dunno what you're on about there. And Ed isn't a bad character... there were like 3 of them in Capcom Cup and if infiltration can make any character win, why didn't he win with Ed? An objectively good character? And I agree Infiltration is strong and possibly the best but we just can't know that considering he's only got half the lifespan of SFV under his belt. The facts are that he's lost to NL and going by your logic since he's played Punk once and beat him, NL is better than Infiltration since he beat him to qualify for Capcom Cup. You can't just go off of old results and opinions for this kinda stuff
I agree with pretty much everything you put forward here. I'd love to see a video on the Greatest SF4 player too. It's an interesting one since there's no CLEAR choice imo. If I had to pick, I'd choose Daigo but Momochi and Infiltration have arguments to be made as well
![[Soku] Tenshi murdering Remilia, Monster Hunter style](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/f5ZaqDP_ypg/mqdefault.jpg)
Fighting games are so interesting because old school players can stay pro above 40+. Looking forward to Tokido vs Daigo in SF6!
I don't think it's a feature of fighting games, it's more like daigo is a genetic freak who dedicated his life to being the best. fighting games require an insane level of mechanics in terms of speed and precision AND good reaction times, both of which degrade heavily with age.
@@karayi7239 Honestly, I don't think things are as reaction times based as you think.
I believe things are more about life taking people away from people's time in games the most and maybe certain neuroplascitity to learn as a smaller cause.
I don't think until about 40, you need to be concerned about reaction times, but a lot of people think now that you turn 25 and can't compete in esports. That's not true and isn't true in any sports.
@@Mykulveli While it is true that reaction times peak at 24, I don't think the difference is game changing as I made it sound.
I actually take back that daigo is a genetic freak because it takes away from the amount of hard work and dedication he put in. It's shocking how he didn't get a career ending wrist injury cuz this is a HUGE reason why pros retire.
@@karayi7239 Yeah I wasn't necessarily calling out you because I can't glean all your views from your short post but I think there is that sentiment in the broad gaming community.
Daigo is definitely something else, no doubt.
@@karayi7239 u definitely need reactions but these oldheads have built muscle memory of move animations for decades. they have in depth game matchup knowledge and can still compete at the highest level which isnt something you could say in MOBAs or FPS games. Same thing with a legacy fighter like Tekken, some of the best players are approaching 40 and can still wipe the floor with up and coming players
Has to be Tokido for me
His consistency is just unmatched. A danger for the whole lifespan of the game
I will agree because Tokido had defeated both Punk and Daigo.
Punk's Karin and iDom's Laura among the best players who made their characters fit their own style.
I think with the last part and how Tokido being more quiet compared to Punk, is really more of a difference in language. I think for me Tokido once said that if a Street Fighter Alien came down and only one person could be chosen to fight he wanted to be that guy and that has sat with me more than anything Punk has ever done but that message was from a Japanese tweet from 7 years ago. But like you said it’s really preference but I do think a language barrier does contribute to Tokido or any foreign player (with the exception of Daigo) not being talked about as much as Punk was
I agree with the language barrier. It's also about what we see as westerners. We don't see the results as easily of Tokido mentoring players or how he influences his local scene. I'm positive he does but I just can't know. But there is that thing that Punk says himself "they see us win too much it's normal". Tokido kinda suffers from that ironically enough lol. Him getting st at a major is cool but the fact that he'd get 2nd at like everything else somehow goes under our Radar
at the same time i feel like punk has left a stronger impression on the jp scene than tokido has outside of it
And the guy completely ignored tokidos most emotional moments after losses and wins with his two FT10s against daigo. Or they were FT15s... Anyway, legendary moments.
Great video, this is definitely the style of video that the traditional FGC needs on RUclips.
I definitely agree. It's too easy to make up narratives and opinions because it's almost impossible to do proper research in the FGC. The CPT records from SFV and SFIV have been erased from the Capcom website because SF6 just came out
i feel like it’s pretty clearly tokido but punk definitely has an argument
Yeah that was the interesting thing about really looking back. Tokido is clearly the most dominant player BUT Punk took off basically a whole year if not more. Really makes you wonder where he'd have ended up if he kept that competitive drive
Both gets washed by Infiltration. Infiltration 3-0 Punk.
In term of influence I would have said MenaRD. He litteraly help and sponsored the WHOLE Domican Rep region so that they could be put on the map. With new events like Game Over, or new players makin waves like Crossover and Caba. Doing that from scratch is more influential imo. I wonder what are y’all thought about it
I'm Dominican and I love this man so much. Even got a picture with him at a local tournament. It's amazing what he has done for fighting games in our country and he'll forever be number 1 in my heart.
I agree his influence is huge. I mostly didn't mention it because honestly, his invitational results alone weren't enough to carry him all the way to the level of punk and tokido. He was still way behind. Winning 2 capcom cups is insane, thought to be almost impossible even. But he just isn't consistent at any other events when it comes to getting top 3.
That's not to at his influence is less than the other guys', it just didn't fit in the message of this video
@@qmanchu ooh I understand now it is true that while he was consistent it wasn't on the same level as Punk and Murder Face. But I think that it should have been mentionned noneless because it cause an "injustice" on his side in the video, like he did nothing even tho we all know how much he did for the fgc. To the point Fuudo was playing Birdie too. But It doesn't invalidate your point in your video in the grand scheme of thing your analisys still make sense and watching it was cool for me
@Celrok production yeah I should've been more clear and established that I was moving on from Mena at that point. He's an immensely impactful player. He's built up so much in just a few years.
I meant him no disrespect and if I felt the video wasn't already too long, I'd have said more about him. Maybe in the future of SF6
Great video! This really put the competitive life of sfv in perspective
Glad you enjoyed! It was fun to do this as a means to wrap up SFV which is my most played game of all time. Wanted to show it love
I dunno... I think the argument made against Tokido's influence was a little flawed. The video even presented his most famous "Fighting Games are something, sooo.... Great". I remember watching that and it resonated with me in a way more profound and moving than anything else in the FGC tbh. Its the reason i went to EVO the next year, and reignited my love of the beautiful grind😊
The big thing about influence that we can actually measure is how the game changed in response to a certain player. Punk was a driving force for everyone to change their playstyles where Tokido didn't have that much influence over how the game was actually played.
The other way we can measure it is by the players each directly influenced and the results of those players. Punk has directly led to the qualifications of at least 3 players to Capcom Cup whereas Tokido's students aren't as prevalent. Now that could be because of how the Japanese scene is open for everyone to learn from everyone and is possibly flawed. That's why I leaned into the first thing about how Punk changed the way the whole world played.
That's really the whole argument of why Punk would outdo Tokido there. I would've said more directly about Tokido but the video was already so long
I like how u can tell punk knew mena was gonna win the tournament with that combo
I think the one thing you missed about hte influence metric is SO MANY of the best runs that we saw, fujimura probably having the scariest peak, punk insane year, infiltration the main metric htat finally settled them as the TOP SHIT was that they wehre able to pass tokido. He was the benchmark not for being good not for being great but for being the best and that influence passes all language barriers nad is crazy
You're so right. Tokido became a damn benchmark lmao
Punk has the highest peak and the most influence and his consistency isn’t bad either, it has to be punk for me.
I stan tokido but it's so true that punk inspires people. I've genuinely thought before "damn i wish i had those footsies" and also about some of his quotes so often.
outside of statistical results, Tokido had that, "DAMN I JUST BEAT HIM" factor and Punk had that edge that we all were jealous of xD
These are reasons why their GOATS, when their status proceeds them in the game they played.
Infiltration is the GOAT of SFV
Punk is da Magneto of da FGC, He is quite literally a genius of fighting games, similar to Kizzie kay and Justin Wong, And the Mr.Fantasic of all fighting games he lays his hands on SonicFox, Then we got quite literally the Spiderman of da FGC aka SMUG. My SF5 CFN is SmugDaigoHamza on ps4 and my Guilty gear strive is PunkSmugHamza on ps4. My SF6 is Allahu-Akbar on Ps5. I got to platinum quite quickly, I kept think I was the Gold rank because I wasnt paying attention. Then I was thinking why am I fighting Platinum rank dudes when I am only silver rank? Like an idiot I kept looking at their rank and not my own. I got my ass handed to me by some players in ranked and got smack into Gold rank. Then got dawg walked a whole bunch in casuals 11 times by a God dang kimberly player then dawg walked by a Manon players. Then I jumped on ranked again lost so more then I called it a day. Sometimes it's best to take time out of ranked in casual matches and just lab and chill da fuck out in world tour mode. Because going on a losing streak in ranked really can hurt. Sft I give 10/10 overall but still prefer Sf5 gameplay.
@@MuhammadAli-xw4yc You know nothing about the fgc. Punk gets washed in many finals, he def struggles against tokido and many top players such as M.crimson and pros from japan. Not to mention he can never beat infiltration. Punk is highly overrated. Infiltration, Higuichi, Tokido, Mcrimson and many others wash him easy.
@@kelvin303 You sound emotional my dude. They all wash each other. I have watched tons of their livestreams, in their battle lounges, Also you arrogant punk, I watched Mr.Crimson cook up Idom,punk,that world class zeku player dude from britain at dat tournment in europe. But a few days later Punk cooked Mr.Crimson for free in long ass set. I have fought in offline tournments in arcades in 1992 in Nagoya, roppongi and all over tokyo. Dude don't be so arrogant. I have been involved in fight game community since Street fighter 1. Young bucks nowadays huh.
Punk recently beat a tournament and literally said, I hate when they root for the hometown player it only makes me wanna beat them more
That's not what the "eye test" is. The "eye test" in sports is whether someone who has a good eye for good players can tell whether the player is good. Whether Tokido is influential or not isn't related to the "eye test".
Great video and absolutely solid now I wonder how will SF6 will go
Punk with Karin for me
He showed the world a new way to play SFV
Please.. Punk got washed by Infiltration. Infiltration is the GOAT if sfv
Hard to say it’s Punk, when his demon Tokido beat him multiple times when it matters
@@Gold_Lightan Thank You.. some people try to ignore this fact..
So what you're saying is that basically Tokido is Stoic Ryu and Punk is Fiery Ken. Gotcha!
U HIT THE NAIL with Influence. That's why in NBA we talk about Michael Jordan and Kobe, but we don't talk as much about Tim Duncan that has the same number of rings as Kobe or Bill RUssel that as more rings than anybody will ever have. Or wilt Chamberlain with soo many records we KNOW it's impossible to beat. But it doesn't matter, Influence plays a BIG part and that's something Michael Jordan has and Wilt no matter how many record or Bills rings will ever have. Michael Jordan has a global influence in the sport known as basketball, and only players later touched near that level. Kobe, LeBron. Tim Duncan might be just as great as Kobe, but he doesn't have the influence.
clearly it's the guy who played F.A.N.G. and won touranments with him
I started watching street fighter because of Punk. I don't even play the game or fighting games in general. I learned about Mena Rd and Tokido AFTER Punk opened the gateway for me.
The 18 minute mark definetly reminded me of the Armada vs Mang0 Melee GOAT argument which I find is funny that another game boils down to the same set of factors
Yeah, in my opinion it's Armada hands down BUT Mango still playing to this day at top level is so staggeringly impressive that him being the GOAT makes sense too
@@qmanchu true it's the same situation. Armada has the better stat argument but Mang0 has the better influence argument
so where would you classify Daigo? He may not have the wins, but he is a legend.
Daigo is probably the greatest Street Fighter player of all time. He's been at the top of almost every game competitively, even as he grows older and the games grow more popular. He's a legend without a doubt but not a Top 5 SFV player. Maybe top 10 at best but I'd have to do a lot of research there to be sure
Goat at general sf but not the goat at sf5
@@qmanchu Daigo was probably top 15 in SFV. He didn't gel with SFV like Tokido gelled with SFV. The switch up was instantaneous that you couldn't blame age. Daigo was arguably top 1-3 at end of SF4, and immediately switched to outside of top 15. On the other hand, Tokido was probably top 25-30 in SF4 or even top 15 and immediately gelled with SFV to where he was top 2.
New games switch up rankings for a lot of players. Hence why I have a lot of respect for players who have been a top player for so many SF games, where they have to abandon their top in the game status, and re earn it.
We'll see how SF6 switches things up. Daigo at the very least already looks more comfortable beating top pros than the early part of SFV.
What i ask you is, if you qualifie to capcom and prepare yourself to play Who you would study to face? I think the answer for many Will be Tokido, Punk and other that did well in capcom pro tour, that was why players like Mena, Idom or even Gachikun has more chance to win capcom cup.
Amazing video ! I like that you try to be the most objective possible.
One for sf4 would be great too .
Thank for the good work.
Ps: sorry for my English . I speak french.
I think Punk had an infiltration in 2012 aura around him. There was a moment where it felt like he couldn’t lose, making many international players sweat.
It is Tokido by a landslide, most consistent and best average performance at the biggest relevant events
Agree
Using CPT results though, winning capcom cup multiple times has to get weighted over everything. If it’s not punk, objectively, it has to be Mena
I'd agree with you if Mena had won anything else. I can agree he's been the strongest SFV player in the world on those given nights, but he's also failed to qualify for Capcom Cup, not won any other major CPT tournament, and has a losing record against Punk/Tokido.
Objectively, capcom cup was weighted over everything else in the video, and he still falls short because that's kind of all he has
Sorry I'm over what Infiltration did that's my boy right there
I think the issue is after the initial scandal, 2 or 3 more scandals popped up and it doesn't look like any brand wants to be associated with that right now.
He's been in online CPT events tho so I guess that ban is up. But it's up to offline tourneys to let him back individually
Phenom is definitely the most consistent SF5 player, may not be the best but I always put money on him being in top 8
He is incredibly consistent! I always root for him when I can
In SFV, it's Tokido... Daigo, Tokido and Infiltration have the most Tier 1 tournament wins in Street Fighter, as well as runner-ups. They also have the most Tier 2 wins. If you compare MenaRD resume, it's paper thin. It's not even remotely close to Tokido. Tokido has 16 Tier 1 wins in just SFV alone. MenaRD has 4 in his ENTIRE career including all other fighting games.
for my money, daigo is always going to be the fighting game god. However, that's bias from me growing up watching daigo. Tokido and punk likely have more influence these days. In the case of street fighter V I feel like tokido is way better in every regard though punk is a close runnerup.
Daigo is the GOAT of Street Fighter in general in my opinion. I wanna do research to see if that's objectively true but I think it is. I don't think many if any come close
Can’t wait for the Senior Citizen division in Street Fighter Daigo still gonna be Flash Kicking till he’s 80years old😂
it's me
Top 5 consistently: Punk, Tokido, Problem, Fuudo, Mena or Phenom.
Fuudo is a player I want to tall about more in the future. He's absolutely insane in the long run but never really gets any spotlight
I do think the influence part, is HEAVLY biased towards the west. If you ask people in Japan and maybe even just nearby Asian countries, they would pick Daigo or Tokido most likely and their influence in Japan and maybe even the Asian SF5 scene in general, is much greater than any of the western players. As a western person who has lived in Asia, and now lives in South Korea, I know that sometimes, even the most famous people in our eyes, are not well known in Japan or Korea and these countries also have a LOT of pride in their players as well in every sport. The fact that Tokido and even Daigo, are being talked about as the GOAT of SF5 by us westerners, shows how much influence they actually have and how good they are. Especially since they can’t even really communicate with us the same way someone like Punk, who is a native english speaker, can either, as they mostly speak in Japanese as can be seen from their social media for example. I recommend watching some of Tokidos videos, then you can see how much influence he really has in Japan at least. So in the end, my pick would be Tokido, in terms of statistics he is the GOAT, and in term of influence, I do not think he falls behind Punk in anyway, especially if you look at Japan.
Liked the video though. But do think the influence metric is a bit skewed, as it is heavily western biased. In the end though, they all gave us some good SF5 to watch.
The section is definitely biased but the only point I really want people to walk away from with this is how small Japan actually is lol. If Punk had this hold on the entire world AND Japan, where as Tokido could have a similar hold on Japan and less of the western world, the western world is so much bigger than a few small islands. And that's not to diminish what those players have done.
The biggest thing is Punk changed the way the game was played across the globe, influencing even the likes of Tokido himself! It didn't really go the other way around. That's really all I meant by that section. I hope it's clear that even if I think Punk had more influence over the game itself, Tokido is in my opinion the undisputed greatest
@@qmanchu Yeah I see your point, still I personally think it’s hard to talk about influence because you can’t say Japan is small in a context like this.
For example, despite being 1/3rd of the US population and only having roughly 21% of the US GDP, Japan still manages to be the 3rd largest video game market (only about $14B behind the US) and the 2nd largest music market behind the US. So size doesn’t really matter, especially in something like fighting games where the scene is so region specific (e.g Korea and Tekken, KoF and South America).
Now add the fact that not all of Japan, Europe or America plays video games, and that the series itself is Japanese and existed a decade before in Japan before eventually coming to the US. So it has much more history in Japan, and the regional SF scene has a lot of support from Capcom and large companies, teams and the community. Even arcades, which are still popular in Japan, bought SF5 machines and now buy SF6 machines. So Japan might very well have the largest SF community.
Of course, it’s hard to know for sure things like this, but don’t think the difference in reach or influence is that big, especially looking at metrics like followers, views and history. The regional scene in Japan is really impressive and stacked. Influence might even be in Tokidos favor for all we know.
It’s really hard to say for a fact how much influence they’ve had, especially without any inside knowledge of the scene, especially in Japan. Unless they are a player like Knee or Faker for example. This is kind of a slippery slope, but I definitely think that Punk and Tokido are the two in contention for SF5, with my choice being Tokido as well. But I can definitely see why people would pick Punk, it’s well deserved too
@tigerchuu2148 yupp and I mostly agree but the biggest point I wanted to make was influence over the game, not influence over people since you can't rly measure that.
The influence over the game that Punk yielded was people slowing the game down and looking for confirms. Everyone started doing that once he began winning. Tokido's biggest influence over the game was people switching to Akuma and still not achieving his results. So Punk's influence affecting the top players of Japan itself and the best players globally is mostly what I mean here. Tokido didn't have that, which is why I mentioned Japan being small was important.
The other point I mention is we can directly trace 3 Capcom Cup qualifiers back to Punk and I admitted in the video that we can't know for sure about Tokido in this regard mostly cuz Japan's FGC is very different than ours. So I admit the bias there.
But basically not only did Punk change the way the game was played, he also directly influenced the outcomes of multiple Capcom Cups via people he trained or sponsored. That's heavy influence over the game, not people. If that makes sense?
Me saying "Nobody wants to play like Tokido" was definitely an inflammatory thing to put in that I regret cuz it takes away from my main point haha
“Of all time” always sounds funny since the game is less than 10 years old. 😂
The "Influence" section is completely irrelevant to the topic. We're looking for the greatest SFV player of all time, not the greatest SFV influencer of all time. Only results matter, and Punk has not had the results lately to be in the conversation.
i agree that the "influence" section is wack but instead should be considered an "overall skills" section. like how good are the players in game, how dominante are their wins, do they win from losers or winners more often, things like that. if you were to consider raw ability, i believe it's punk>idom>tokido>mena. but also for an overall career evaluation, you can't pretend like their past successes don't matter as much just because they aren't performing that well currently
Ye for overall skills it’s clearly punk. He still does stuff that no one else can do.
I played one game online and won. I retired after that game with a 100% win record. Therefore i am the greatest SFV player ever.
I was ready to press the like button, until the "influence" part.
Lol that's totally fine! But you realize that's just to account for things we can't account for in the last years.
Plus as a send off to SFV, it's important to bring attention to the fact that the game wouldn't be played the way it was if not for Punk. My GOAT is still Tokido, but I can't really discredit people who say Punk
By individual achievements, I think it has to be Tokido because of his results throughout the lifespan of SFV while being in the strongest region but if we're equating greatness to who influenced and changed how SFV was played, it's Punk. How he played the game right from his arrival was so different than what everyone else was doing that it straight up feels that he's playing a different game altogether. He presented a completely different blueprint on how SFV should be played and opened the eyes of many on what was actually possible that the Japanese FGC had massive gatherings dedicated to replicating and trying to figure out his style. If you compare how SFV was played at the highest level before and after Punk made it big, it's like night and day.
Lol daigo hold my beer.... daigo had thousands of trophy that's why even Tokido and God's respect him... He got guilty gear champions sf 2 3 4 and alpha vampire savior/dark stalkers trophies
This guy gets it
Exactly. And I don’t think the Japanese did that for any other player. They called punk the best in the world.. I don’t think they did that for anyone. Even Nemo came out and challenged punk to a ft10 cause in Nemos words “punk is easily the best player in the world”
@Dime X I think one player who the Japanese did talk about like that was Gachikun actually. Very understated player in my opinion.
@@qmanchu I would have never known that, cheers :) or was it just gachis cr.fp? I remember them complaining about how well he used it
Any way that was a good video. Maybe the most realistic goat vídeo
That was the goal. Just to be realistic and as objective as possible. Going into it, I didn't actually perceive Tokido as THAT strong over time. I knew he had his movements but no, he's always been a menace.
Glad you enjoyed
@@qmanchu
How didnt you notice? Two back to back evo finals, capcom cup final, Eleague champion, first or second in almost all topanga leagues. And now in your video you informed me that he was top 3 in all seasons of the capcom pro tour.
If we only consider results nobody would come close, but I think that at their peak Punk is more virtually invincible. I'm a tokido fan and I know that he has bad matchups like Gachikun' Rashid or Kichpa's Gief, unlike Punk that sometimes seems to have no gap to beat him. Thats why i think any of both can be the goat
@saraiva luis das neves at the time I noticed, obviously. But after like 3 years of no offline competition, recency bias got in the way. The specifics escaped me was all. I also wasn't into SFV competitions until around 2017 when Punk was already on the scene. I entered the fighting game genre via competitive smash haha
Great video besides the "influence" part. It just shows a big USA bias on your side and the fact that it's the final section of the video just seems like a cop out to put your fav in, kinda left an bad taste in my mouth in an otherwise nice video.
I feel like people are interpreting that the influence part means Punk won over Tokido in this video lol. It's literally just there as an extra point to look at. There's no preference to Punk here. It's just important, as a goodbye to SFV, to talk about how Punk was able to change the way the WORLD plays the game. That's all lol. I say myself that my pick is Tokido here but saying Punk wouldn't be crazy in my eyes is all
This video is rating 10/10 drip plain and simple 😍😍😍😍
Punk for the win. Even I, a regular scrub, got influenced by him. And he is the most enjoyable to watch playing.
Tokido with Akuma was peak of SFV. But sadly Capcom just can't stop nerf Akuma and he pretty much struggle to keep up. Menat was OD at that time and his Akuma trashed so bad and it was so disheartening. He forced to change main.
His Urien and Luke never as good. Tokido just Akuma and Akuma is him period.
I picked up SF5 and played Akuma because of Tokido so while I see what you’re saying in terms of influence, the choice is clear to me.
Oh hell yeah, his Akuma reign of terror was insane! I would've said more about that but the video was already so long, didn't really fit. Tokido's influence over people switching to that character is probably unrivaled except for the uptick of people playing Poison after Idom maybe. But even then, Tokido is still prolly more so
It’s between punk and tokido either one you can argue for
It's Punk. As great as MenaRD is, he won both capcom cup with Broken characters. Birdie (he was completely busted in that first cpt) and Luke in 2022
MenaRd is just different
can you make a video on who the strongest character's are in ggst and street fighter 5 based only off of tournament results?
Check out my "Modern Tier Lists Don't Matter" and "Are you carried in ggst" videos. They're older videos on this channel but probably close to what you're looking for
What’s the win loss record between Tokido and Punk head to head in SF5?
Punk actually has a winning record. 6-4 over Tokido
@@qmanchu i know you’ve covered all angles in analyzing this topic, do you think this head to head record is significant. I certainly think so. Thanks for the content.🙏🏽
@liluziBurt667 in general, yeah head to head is important. But it's not feasible to use for this context. I chose the metrics I did because they're easy to measure and also compare year to year.
If I did head 2 head, I'd have to break it all down by year because some years one player dominated the other. Generally, it'd be too much work but it also would become murky and confusing quickly
Its pretty agreed Mena, Punk and Tokido are the 3 that stand alone.
infiltration is there too but cancel culture on its BS
Whatever happened to infiltration???
He had a legal dispute with his wife at the time of domestic abuse. The case was made public and he was let go from his team and CPT banned him.
Then when things looked like he could've been let back in, he was found to be involved with rigging tournaments. And then after all that he went on stream and said a lot of racially charged things for some reason.
So it just seemed like there was a mountain of issues and bad PR
As all americans you think that because you are or were influenced by Punk everbody in the world was too. Who is the goat?! Tokido or Punk. Picking Tokido or Picking Punk you are not wrong. They both have something where they are better than all other players. Tokido more consistence, Punk in his best almost unstoppble and they prove that along many years.
such a godlike video
Mena RD for sure
Without watching the video its easily between tokido or punk
I think each CHARACTER should have a rating. Rather than flat out the best player it should be who is the best with each character because their abilities are so different.
My favorite CHARACTER in the entire franchise back to 1987 is URINE and the competitor I most admire is NEMO because he is arguably the best player of URIEN.
Diago is arguably the best GUILE player but he is NOT the best at the other characters (he can beat ME with any character and with one hand behind his back,I just mean not the absolute best).
I think Ryan Hart has made this list actually
I'm still believe Infiltration will not lose to anyone but Tokido.
punk
calling before watching
Now for SF6..... It's Punk!!!
I put Tokido over Punk by leaps and bounds. Metrics determine who's best WAY more than just boastful bragging and whatever influence you can bring up. The thing about your examples far as Jordan and Tiger Woods, they were the greatest because of METRICS and STATS in their prime. No one was over them. Much more like Tokido than Punk.
“How many people wanna play like Tokido?”
Feel like it’s really unreasonable to use this “metric”, it’s EXTREMELY western-biased. Punk and Mena’s influence in Japan/Asian playerbase would be incomparable to Tokido. We see a clip of Daigo praising here, but it should go without saying Daigo would have plenty of praise for Tokido as well.
It does go without saying. But what does need saying is that Punk did change the entire landscape of the game. Tokido dominated the competition for the entire game's life and yet he would mostly hop on transformations as the game progressed. He defined Akuma for a while but when he switched to Urien and Luke, many, including the Japanese didn't consider it a transformative choice from him. That's really all it comes down to.
It's also not the most important metric. I literally say that I wouldn't call Punk the GOAT, but it makes sense to me why many do. That's all
Punk for sure
Just because you're loud it doesnt make you worth more. Takido is objectively the greatest of all time. Punk is appreciated though and a strong second. Good logical conclusion
Him being loud has nothing to do with the fact that sfv as a competitive game changed after his year of domination in a tangible way that persisted till the end. Not just in America, but literally the whole world. That's an important factor to some and that's all that section addresses lol.
I agree Tokido is objectively the strongest. And the video literally reflects that. As I say in the video, If someone told me Punk was their GOAT, I wouldn't really have issue with it though because he's still done something nobody else has
Infiltration is actually the goat. 3-0 punk,not to mention punk never beat infiltration, and washed tokido many times.
I scratched off 3 with Dominican dude (forgot his name), Punk and Infiltration.
Kept the other 3 in Daigo, Idom and Tokido.
Daigo is a long time veteran in the fgc. Also an amazing player in Street fighter that tends to bring hype matches at times. Like the Aegis sweep strings with his Guile.
Idom seems to win so much. Almost always winning top tournaments with even everyone listed in it for a while actually.
Tokido has been around for a while as well. Was super scary in the beginning of sf5. Barely losing. Like almost not at all. Now others can take a turn winning. But he can still win and is still super strong.
tokido all the way, punk is really good but this aint an influencer competition
IDOM IS 🔛🔝 (in my opinion)
Whoooaaa dude your comment about Tokido's influence is wayyy off. The amount of times I've seen the "Fighting games are something so great" clip mentioned, as well as people talking about his dedication and dominance over the game is unreal. He's also still the player people associate the most with Akuma even though he hasn't played the character in a long time.
I'm not arguing that Punk isn't the GOAT of SFV, but I just think that point was a bit disingenuous.
It's not disingenuous to say that Punk changed the way the game is played more than Tokido did. It's just literally true. I'm not saying Tokido doesn't have a massive influence. He does. But Punk just wins out overall.
Tokido has that quote, sure. But Punk's got many of quotes that get recited to this day as well. And when you see Karin who do you think of? Punk. So if those are your biggest wins for Tokido, Punk is right there with him in terms of those. AND he's got more like the players he's coached to top level and the fact that he changed the game globally. There's really no point where I'm being disingenuous in what I'm saying about Tokido's influence, there's just a bigger picture here
@@qmanchu But I said that I'm not arguing that Punk is the GOAT, and I do think that he had more influence than Tokido (in the west).
My only point was that I felt you didn't represent Tokido's influence as fairly as I think you could have.
I still enjoyed the video overall, just had that one nitpick.
@Cezkarma Gaming considering Tokido got the spotlight over most of the video and it's the longest one I've made, didn't really make sense to mention the specifics, same way I didn't say as much about Punk in the earlier sections. That's really all there is to it. Mena RDxs influence is also massive in the LATAM world but I couldn't represent that here either unfortunately
the only two times capcom champ is the best, menard
Tokido the most dominant in SFV
What? Most people knew it was tokido lol
its infiltration
bro for me that "eye test" metric is BS, thats cultural difference also language barrier . if you exchange their places/body, results would be very veeeeeerrryyyyyy different
Some of it is language barrier! But a lot of it isn't. We're very aware of Punks relationship with CJ truth and Nephew and we're very aware of Daigo's relationships with Kawano and other players who have learned directly from him. Or even Momochi's students like Johnny. The language barrier doesn't stop us from knowing that and there's no japanese players as notable as CJ and Nephew who have come from Tokido as far as I've been able to tell. Behind closed doors, maybe there's a relationship that was somehow never made public, but I think we'd know by now.
Secondly, Punk's influence over the way we play the game is global. Tokido's influence might go as far as his Akuma basically making players switch because it was THAT strong. But with Punk, even Japanese players have gone on record saying they wanted to adapt his style or at least adapt to it.
Lastly, eye test thing, Tokido was winning for a long time. He made himself the villain in a way. From the beginning of the game, he was number 2 if he wasn't number 1 and eventually, that got boring. He paved the way for Punk and Mena to become narratives. They became players poised to take him down, so we'd finally not have to see Tokido win lol. That's why the eye test wasn't in his favor. Whenever he was in grands, many were hoping someone would actually challenge him
Who ever wins Capcom cup the most is the goat until the record gets beat
Just wanna preface this that I'm not being sarcastic or anything here: if that was the case, you could have a 20% win rate of tournaments and only win Capcom Cup and still be the GOAT?
@@qmanchu if I win key matches in football but lose some matches Aswell but still make it to the super bowl and win, are the other teams better because they beat me? there's only two key matches to win in fighting games, that's capcom cup and evo. I put capcom cup higher though on the list.
@ihavetubes that's not really true though. Those are the biggest but there's been tons of major tournaments of similar level to evo. And even if not, Tokido getting 2nd at capcom cup while also winning almost 20 majors throughout the games few years of offline competing definitely outweighs 2 key tournaments.
Because you can't just factor in Mena winning 2. He failed to get top 3 of so many of the same tournaments Tokido won
@@qmanchu if you asked pros which tournaments they rather win the most its capcom cup and evo and that says a lot about those main events and the ones outside of it.
@@ihavetubes yea, and Tokido has won an Evo and got 2nd at the capcom cup that Mena won. So by what you're saying, he's only behind by a little bit. If you then count his literal dozens of other wins, he kinda dwarfs Mena with only 2 major wins under his belt. Tokido also just smoked Mena at Topanga like a week ago
All im saying is that mena is the only one to win 2 capcom cups
Totally, and there's a lot to be said about that. It's just hard to contextualize that when those are his only 2 big wins. He's literally got the best capcom cup record and it's insane that he could win it twice
Infiltration would've easily been the goat if not for false allegations and trigger happy TO's bending the knee to mindless mobs and having too much pride to admit when they were wrong.
False allegations? Which were those?
Punk
Brian_F
Great breakdown.. for me it’s punk hands down.. but I admit im biased.
Diago NO1 ryu guile ken
mang0 da goat
👀 I knew this comment would come eventually
Punk revolutionized how the game was played.
Tokido had the consistency.
MenaRD has the 2 capcom cups with the second one being completely dominant (He made Zhen who everyone got bodied by look like a complete scrub)
Anyone who follows SFV would say Tokido is the GOAT
Check the other comments and you'd be surprised lol
Best Rage Quitter? LTG lol
Infiltration.... Capcom had to ban him so other people could win.
tokido the goat
MENAAAAA
The whole video was an excuse to praise Punk maaaaaan. Watching Tokido was something else the whole time SF5 competitive scene existed, Punk is good, but not even close to him.
Literally 75% of the video is about how Tokido dominated and there was nobody like him. 2 of the 3 sections highlight him. But one, 3 minute section about Punk makes the whole video about him? I don't get how that's the takeaway other than it being at the end lol.
Also to say Punk wasn't close really isn't the case. Punk was still by far the 2nd best player in SFV in terms of results and that's including him taking almost a full year off of touring the pro circuit and placing highly in other games. It's not an excuse but if I wanted to praise him, there's much more to say. Him objectively changing the way the game was played globally is worth talking about when considering the greatest but I even say in the video that I wouldn't call him the greatest. Punk is an amazing player and he deserves to be talked about in the discussion, even if I don't think he is the GOAT
@@qmanchu Wow slow down mate, I was joking, relax. I did not write this to disagree with you. I like your video.
What
The greatest player was me, a silver gief
I don't see Low Tier God, no need to continue watching
Lmao it's concerning how many different versions of this comment I'm seeing cuz I can't tell who's being a meme and who isn't
@qmanchu 🤣🤣🤣 I think the more concerning part is anyone who wrote it without the intention of being a meme. At least mine was hahaha
@JVH you never know with LTG fans! Thats the scary bit. I think it's prolly only 2% of then are forreal
Anyone but Punk. The pressure was too much for him.
This is hard one:
Tokido= had a great run but it seems like he disappeared at the games end.
Infil= legal troubles ended him early, probably would have dominated for years.
Punk= seem like he stopped trying at the tail end and was broken when he lost to Tokido.
idom= if he won Evo this past year would be a easy pick as he dominated in the games prime time.
Rd= he won when it counted and probably didnt have the ability to attend alot of tournies.
So i dont knopw who LOL.
If i had to pick= PUNK, he made me wanna watch the game and his actions. Here is a secret- i never bought the game myself or played itccuz of how capcom bouched the game.
nah, tokido was really great and got lots of crazy results and plays on tournament, but it was when he was playing Akuma. Tokido's Akuma IS the greatest akuma of all time, but then he cooled down and nothing much came from him on the past years.
Ans in my opinion, when we are talking about the greatest in something, we have to look to something that someone did and nobody else did, and then we have MenaRD, the only one to have 2 capcom cups under his belt, handsdown the greatest.
My issue with saying it's Mena because of that achievement is that he's not really won anything else. Consistency is just as key as hype achievements I think. And Mena, while being the most consistent Cacpom Cup winner, also didn't even qualify for it in 2019, the same year Punk got 2nd.
I think the shiny CC titles are a tad distracting from how he was as an actual overall player. But that's my opinion obviously
:)
Worst of the series
Not only is Tokido the GOAT but I honest to god believe he is the best fighting game player on the planet. Much more than the likes of SonicFox, Daigo or Justin Wong. He's godlike in pretty much every game he sets his mind to, even if it's something mad difficult like KOF 13.
Yeah he very well might be. He seems to pick up any game at a high level within hours lol
Edit: fun fact, Tokido is and has been a high level KOF player for ages. His gamer tag is even a KOF reference
Infiltration always wash him though. Infiltration is the best player of sfv hands down.
@Kelvin Blount it's not really hands down when he hasn't competed years at the top level. He even lost to NL while trying to qualify for Capcom Cup so at the end of SFV, he wasn't even the best Korean player :/
@@qmanchu Lost to NL by using a weak character “ED”. Not to mention he can still make it to the grandfinals doing this in many tournaments. Players are afraid of Infiltration he knows it thats why he said it on this stream. Capcom doesn’t want him to be the face of the fgc. Punk never beat infiltration btw, and tokido gets washed most of the time. Infiltration can make even the worst characters look amazing, im sure if he were to play/main high tier characters he would destroy everyone in the fgc everytime. Download complete. Show me a video where Punk beats infiltration. Infiltration is hands down the best SFV player of all time real ones know this.
@Kelvin Blount Punk and Infiltration only played like one time ever and it was at WNF so I dunno what you're on about there. And Ed isn't a bad character... there were like 3 of them in Capcom Cup and if infiltration can make any character win, why didn't he win with Ed? An objectively good character?
And I agree Infiltration is strong and possibly the best but we just can't know that considering he's only got half the lifespan of SFV under his belt. The facts are that he's lost to NL and going by your logic since he's played Punk once and beat him, NL is better than Infiltration since he beat him to qualify for Capcom Cup. You can't just go off of old results and opinions for this kinda stuff
It's fucking comical to have punk on this list. You should have titled the video Best sf5 player...sf5 is the easiest SF game ever made. 😊
The video is title best SFV player... what am I missing here?
I agree with pretty much everything you put forward here. I'd love to see a video on the Greatest SF4 player too. It's an interesting one since there's no CLEAR choice imo. If I had to pick, I'd choose Daigo but Momochi and Infiltration have arguments to be made as well
I got Daigo two evos and he made all evo top 16s or something like that 😵💫😵💫
@@Purlypurlingtonbut Mena won 2 Capcom cups
@@Kinesis327 but Daigo won 2 evos in a row and made evo top 16 very year
We talking about SFIV here i think, and mena not even playing back then probably
If u talk about sfIV, Infiltration was probably the best player, hands down.