Sorry to disagree with you all, but this move of "spinning the right arm down", has helped me compress the ball so much better. I,m not a low handicapper, but l,ve seen tremendous improvement in my swing since watching this Maude/Cowen video. I,m on the practice ground between 4-8 hrs every week. I've watched the video more than a dozen times now,just to pick up on every aspect of what Pete,s talking about. You're not going to pick it all up in one watch. This is a fantastic swing for getting out of light rough as well, l,ve found.
I am a great fan of Pete Cowen over many years BUT I am 100 % with you on this one, Zach. Its so much better and more powerful FOR ME to swing as you demonstrate in this video GREAT VIDEO - thanks
In the Danny Maude video, Pete Cowen never spoke about spinning down or pronating the right arm from the top of the backswing. In all his videos he speaks about the 45 degree angle coming down actually supinating the right arm by bringing the elbow in and in front. In the DM video he is always refering to what the right arm does from delivery position. And this is definitely a sort of spinning down the forearm with a bit of pronation of the wrists to keep the pressure on the shaft.
What do mean pressure on the shaft? The shaft is in forward bend as the clubface impacts the ball for full swings from 5 iron to driver . The amount of time that the clubface is in contact with the ball is 0.0004 secs , therefore by the time that ball/clubface collision 'impact wave' travels up to the grip (ie. you feel the impact vibration wave via your hands) , the ball is already in flight. You can't be putting pressure on the golf shaft before impact for a full driver swing. This is where 'feel' isn't real and you need to understand the physics of what is happening. You might feel pressure on the shaft for short punch shots out of the rough and where the shaft may be in slight backward bend, but not for a full driver swing.
I couldn't quite get what Pete Cowen was explaining. Your lesson has cleared this up for me. Without it being clear exactly what Pete was talking about, I hit a lot of weird, bad shots at the range. Hitting shots after listening to you has made a vast improvement. Thank you for the clarification!
I am guilty of going down this rabbit hole. I listened to Pete Cowen, Danny Maude and Andy Carter. My golf index is 1.6. My swing produces a draw but when I go bad I come into the ball way to far on the inside. This generates a big draw or a pull draw. I watched a Pete Cowen video that discussed how to keep the right elbow from getting behind you in the backswing. Basically swing back with a cross handed grip. It actually works really well. He then got me on the spinning right arm on the downswing. I still don't think I really understand what to do. I liked the concept because it appears that it reduces wrist hinge (flipping)coming through impact and also has a more steep approach to the ball. I like the idea of reducing my inside swing path and also reducing a flipping motion at impact. I have a fast swing speed (126 mph driver). That is my best not my average. I am going back to what you are advocating and just trying to find a new way to reduce my inside swing path. Thanks for the video!
My interpretation is different. I understand it as simply lowering and straightening the trail arm (extension) without any forearm pronation and maintaining wrist extension. In the clip, Danny demonstrates an example with forearm pronation to clarify the incorrect motion. Learning this move from Pete really helped me understand how to get my hands and club down so I can turn through without swinging over the top. Not sure why he refers to it as "spinning" the arm down as that does suggest twisting or pronation. Perhaps it's a reference to his spiral staircase analogy, and the spinning is how the arm travels around the body as it turns.
What i see is the ‘spinning’ action is not done in front of the body but more at the side and the wrist/palm of the right hand appears to move down wards (as the forearm/elbow move in front of his chest! It helped me
There is a lot more to the Danny M. Video than presented here. The mini swing in Danny’s video is better to understand what Pete is saying. I have found Pete very helpful. My play striking consistency is much better along with speed. I was a 10 handicap but should be a bit better with the improvements. A key for me which Pete talks about is spinning the right forearm not into the ground but into the back of the ball while not losing the right wrist. Cover the ball with the chest or rotate the chest with rotation while rotating the left hip out of the way. Seems to happen together. Works well for me. Speed is good too. Spinning the right forearm down while not losing the right wrist keeps the right elbow in front of my body as I rotate.
Yes, Zach I agree with you. I had watched Danny's video with Pete probably 4 times all the way through and honestly never really understood the movement Pete was describing ( and it seemed like Danny didn't completely understand the movement either). Danny gears most of his videos to the mid to high index players, so when you pointed out how this movement is really for the elite players it made much more sense to me. As I tried making that movement it never felt comfortable to me. Thank you for explaining it in a way that I could comprehend.
I have watched the Pete Cowen/ Danny Maude video several times and took it to the range 2-3 times. I’m not having success like I thought I would and will now try your approach.
I am not sure that the interpretation of Pete Cowens video is really that what he meant. If the right hand at the top is in extension and it goes over supination and ulneral deviation down to the impact, the right arm has to go external until one comes into a beautiful hitting configuration with external arm and right wrist in UD and extension. I really want to come into this position because in this movement pattern You get a stable face through impact (easier ball flight control). The alternative pattern that You have suggested seems to have a high face rotation at impact, that would not be my preference, I admit that You can hit the ball a long way but not with my skills and my time for practising. I love Your channel and this open discussions.😀👍
Thanks for this Zach. I’ve watched Danny’s video a couple of times and it made no sense to me. You’re a brave man to go against the wrath of PC. I go with your version.
As long as you’re connected you can go as hard as you want. I feel that an effortless goal (with speed) of course is the safest way to get it where you want it to go. The tough part is staying away from releasing too early.
Love your stuff Zach, however if you notice on PC’s full video, he has D Maude in practice, have him turn the clubface down to the ball from DELIVERY position and not from the start of downswing. His work on the 3 forces in the swing movement is superb. The ‘down’ has the effect into delivery which has effect of lateral which has effect of rotational . The lateral and rotational are therefore effects not conscious moves.
Some valid points. There is alot going on in the forces at the grip during this period. And I’m not saying that spinning the right arm down force doesn’t occur at all, but more so what is a good feel for most recreational golfers.
@@ZachAllenGolf ye that’s the issue the golf industry has in relation to instruction I believe. Feels observations etc are always subjective, so varying statements are made. Think I’ll write a book on golf terms 😁 keep up the good work . Anytime in Scotland , be great to share ideas.
The problem with supinating and having the rear elbow stuck into the belly as you demonstrate is that the hands get high and swinging out toward the ball encouraging shanks and heel shots. I haven't watched the Maude and Cowen video in a while, but as Pete said in the clip you shared he's doing it with the forearm. He is not advocating the shoulder or upper arm doing that motion. I've seen lots of people on driving ranges and golf courses trying to rotate open (with their body), rotate fast (with their body), drive their right elbow toward the body or the target, drag the handle to get shaft lean, or be passive with their arm motion (and end up in a lot of side bend/side tilt), and not one of them has been a long hitter, nor a solid ball striker. I will agree that the turning of the forearm down may not be a good focus for everyone, and given how quickly the swing from top to impact is thinking about a move and actually getting it to occur may be a wasted effort. For people shanking, heeling, or leaving the clubface open at impact the throwing the forearm down may be a worthwhile thought if they can do it in the proper way.
I saw the Pete Cowen video a few months back and tried on the range and all it did was help compress the shot, however the ball went really low and not as far. I agree with you on this one, it is not for everyone. Your explanation makes more sense. Thanks and keep up the good work, now I see videos of Porzak golf where he advocates the hip bump on the set up to the left, can you clarify that as well?
You're both right! To me Pete is describing "his" sensation, not what actually occurs. If you watch closely, you and Pete are "really" making the exact same moves, it's just the way you each experience, and describe, that movement. Pete's explanation will work for some (as you suggest it seems to work well for high level players). And your explanation will better work for other players. This happens ALL THE TIME in golf instruction! Feel isn't real, and sometimes even what you SEE isn't real, that is it doesn't match the sensation of the person you are watching. Anyway you can, and I think are BOTH RIGHT.
Respectfully, Cowen is keeping the forearm supinated on the spin down. I think you misinterpreted what he was saying or demonstrated. Cowen is spot on. You're kind of saying similar things.
This is a great video! Great explanation! If the downswing is correct, the release is natural. It’s the same w throwing the baseball, you have no choice but to release your hand because of the centrifugal force cause by the weight of the object. Remember Danny M described problems implementing Cowens recommendations this in his game…
Hi Zach; when teachers are trying to make a correction, do they not over exaggerate the move & then begin to move backward to what the normal position would be? The hard rotation of the arm is just the exaggeration to get the proper feeling of what he's trying to get the person to feel. It's like getting someone to quit slicing by teaching them to hook the ball to develop the swing to get them hitting it straight. I'd definitely agree that if he's really recommending that rotation as he's showing it, he's either misleading or wrong. It seems that if you rotate the arm that way, you'd definitely be hitting big hooks or pulls. I rotate my arm that way but not until after impact. Thanks for your view on this as it could cause a big problem for weekend golfers. As an update, also thanks for having the guts to push back on someone who's known as 1 of the greatest. Being 1 of the greatest doesn't mean you're always right.
Thanks Zach. Anoher interesting and helpful video lesson. I completely agree that there are definite differences in mechanics and thus instruction details for elite versus non elite players.
Like all of your content. I think you are both talking about the same thing and agree with the other comment that talks about a weak grip. After I saw the PC video I watched everything of his I could get my hands on. I still have difficulty with this move but it is about squaring the club face and the feel to do that. You have to be careful that you don't make it an over the top move. But if you look at Zach's club face when he is talking about Hogan and moving your hips first which brings the club down, the face is wide open. The PC move really helps close that face and lets you keep rotating through the ball.
I had to watch DM's video with Pete numerous times before I got what he was trying to convey with spinning of the forearm. What I finally got was, that when the club is parallel to the ground during the downswing, just before contact is when he says to spin the trail forearm down and through the ball to create that punchy compression feel and sound. I didn't think he suggested to start spinning the forearm down until that point. But on the other side of the coin of what you're saying, I agree with you that that move is not for some or even many amateurs. I think it's more for those who have a decent understanding of how the swing should be on a pro level. Even if their swing is not on a pro level, as long as you understand the concept.
I do agree more so of the timing for the release of the right arm as you outline and think PC was more talking about the move / thought in general because the millisecond of timing difference may have the player hold onto the club too long (amateur better player - maybe). One thing that didn't make sense to me was the explanation of getting stuck. I think a lot of amateurs without an over the top swing (really limits the number of amateurs considered...) get stuck with the hips getting out in-front and the rear elbow stuck behind. With that is the flip or push and two sided miss... I don't think it is getting the elbow in-front of hip and stuck? Could be wrong for sure but have been a flipper at times and was closer to the hips getting out early... Will try out your visualization next time out for sure...
Thanks Zach, this is helpful. I don't think I've felt "stuck", just the opposite. In fact it might be interesting to see a video which teaches you the feeling of being "stuck" just to get the sensation of what it is when you hear it mentioned.
I agree with you Zack and was very confused with Cowen’s description. That said, whether it be the hips leading or the spin, I view it as the free ride of Hogan leading to almost a Spider-Man web move with the trail hand almost as if I’m throwing a ball like a submariner (think Kent Tekulve or Dan Quisenberry).
Zach: my understanding of getting stuck is that your elbow is “stuck” to the seam of your shirt on the way down and does not get in front. This seems to be the case when Tiger demonstrates his Ole swing in the video clip. It seems to me that PCs spinning down eliminates getting stuck especially when you consider the downward (axe) motion of arms that PC talks about.
Zach, I dissent from the other commenters. I am in complete agreement with you. Pete Cowen did actually spin his right arm which will do exactly what you said would happen. Danny Maude actually had to clarify his comment. Cowen and others believe a proper release mimics throwing a ball down at the ground just in front of where the ball would be teed. I disagree with that teaching. I believe the action of the right arm is very similar to that of throwing a frisbee or skipping a flat stone across a pond. It’s much more a side arm action driven by the hips and lower body than any kind of down turn or spin of the right arm/wrist. The only caution with the side arm action is leaving the face open but usually that is the product of rolling the face open on the takeaway.
Zach: Quick question about this comment Cowen made about right hand pressure. Couples, Singh, Michelson all have the right hand seemingly coming off the club at impact (RUclips video - Fred Couples' secret). Clay Ballard has a video about not having right hand pressure on the shaft. Is this just a matter of right side pushing or left side pulling? Chuck Quinton(Rotary golf) also mentions his right hand is almost off the club since he prefers left side pulling and shows this in a video. Marcus Edblad strongly believes in pushing from the right. I have to lighten up with the right hand like the aforementioned guys or I go off the rails. Can you comment on this? Not everybody is using this right hand pressure like Cowen said. There's plenty of solid video evidence of this. Thanks.
Some great points there and definitely some variations on how that right hand feels releasing the club. I definitely feel like the average player would benefit from a more free wheeling release of the right hand.
I believe Zach is a more intelligent and analytical instructor that is 100% consistent in his approach. I agree with his comments about Pete's comments. I am sticking with Zach !!
The golf swing has changed over the years, along with the equipment, the technology, the instruction, and the courses we play that the average golfer is paralyzed. Go play with the time and swing you have and try to enjoy the day.
Another benefit of Moe Norman's Master Move is to strike the pose, then hold that as a package and take it to the top, then back to the Master Move, then back to the top...start to feel the clockwise nature of transition and the start of the downswing as a result of the hips opening. So, so much becomes automatic when you get this movement from the top.
Rick I got a reply notice saying you had replied to a comment with the content below-but cannot find it on here. Thought I would see if you could clarify some of it for me?
Here is your note in the reply notice: ->Pete Cowen is missing exactly what is happening at that crucial point of the swing. Go read about Sasho MacKenzie's research on the center-of-mass of the club head needing to pass below the hand path. Pete Cowen is not expressing that move properly. He is advocating kicking the club head out at the ball at that crucial moment, not in allowing the very alien feel of having the club head pass below the hand path or in other words, below his hands and wrists. It's a very alien feel initially which is probably why a lot of pros can't tell you what is happening either. Somehow they get it early on or they get a very good instructor. For an amateur, probably Pete's instruction suffices for giving the amateur a pretty good game.
In any event maybe you could clarify a few points for me. A) the mass of the clubhead below the hand path. This seems to imply the mass of the clubhead would pass under or inside of the hand path? Wouldn’t this require an extremely steep shaft olane? B)you mentioned Pete Cowen is advocating that the clubhead “tip” out? Can you tell me where he says that in the Maude video? I have never heard that despite listening to this video probably 30 times or so and I want to make sure I am not missing something. Tx DK
It's hard to explain, because it's so insidious and undetectable in the speed of the downswing. Assuming your motion from the top is clockwise, as evidenced by your right palm and right elbow pit are pointing away from you and your elbow has automatically moved in front of you, then right before club parallel to the target line your wrists go into ulnar deviation dropping the club head underneath your hands and below the hand path. The angle of attack is really quite shallow from that move. The amateur and I think the way Pete Cowen explains it, at the point of right before club parallel to the target line, he would suggest that your right hand starts to square the face, your right shoulder goes prematurely into internal rotation, and you'll never ever feel what it's like to have an inside to inside golf swing. As I've written in another response on this video, Moe Norman's famous Master Move pose shows the point right before the ulnar deviation and passing the center of mass of the club under the hand path. I wrote an ebook on Moe's Master Move if you're interested in pursuing what I'm saying.@@Dkiash
I met Pete Cowan when he was a yongster on the then Safari Tour to Zambia. He is now a highly respected coach but I must say the hand action he suggests and which you are referring to does not seem very sensible. I am a bit of an Erika Larkin fan and her approach of letting gravity do the work. My own golf is unlikley to evolve much further if at all as i am now over 80 years but have had much pleasure in my life from the game and the compnaionship. And by the way thanks for your lessons. They always make sense.
At 9minutes 45 seconds into the video Zach talks about “NOT” using the muscles of the right arm in the downswing. If you are you are creating to much tension in those muscles and you’re trying to hit the ball too hard. That’s not good. Listen to what Zach is teaching you. “ you need to let it go“! Great teacher great lesson.
My 2 cents. I noticed Pete on his backswing tend to be more classical, at the same time he has a rather weak right hand grip(his words). His doesn't seem to bow his wrist on the downswing thus he needs to incorporate the motion that promoted...meaning a rather active wrists. Please advice...thanks for your contributions👍
I agree with you if we are young and fit with a faster swing speed. But I agree with Peter Cowan at my age of 77 years with a slower swing speed..i cannot drive the ball as far been older. But I spend more time on the fairway than the younger players. To reach the green I'm using say a 5 iron were the younger player is using a 7 iron but not from under trees. I had to change my swing or give up golf. I've been playing golf for 69 years, and had no wish to play bowels. At a 4 handycap age does weary us with that age we must change. I don't have that timing ability of youth I need more time to strike the ball.
I tried this move a few years back. Didn't work for me at all. Whenever i tried to spin it, i stalled and extended early. I watched Danny clip multiple times and still couldn't get my hand around this.
The energy in the golf swing comes from gravity (small amount) and body rotation. The arms passively transfer the energy to the club head at impact. Trying to consciously manipulate the club handle during the brief time from shaft parallel to impact is a fool’s errand. I agree Pete is talking about a feel but not anything the golfer can influence so late in the swing.
I don't see how it's possible to have passive arms & still create 125 clubhead speed. If the arms are passive, speed has to come from the hands & wrists & that requires perfect timing which few of us will ever have.The fall from gravity wouldn't fly the ball 100 yards even with the body rotation. I'm certainly not a pro & am a bit out of my lane but I'll always believe that grip pressure is either the best friend or worst enemy of any player & it's likely the least emphasized by pros who teach beginners & high handicappers. No matter how you swing the club, too much grip pressure will kill power.
I agree with you Zach. I believe the average golfer needs to be supinating the right arm to shallow the club on the way down. With all due respect to Pete Cowen, I don't think he is a coach for the average golfer.
I seems it depends on the golfer. There are some like Tiger and Nicklaus that talk about greater width at the top and letting the club drop with momentum to provide greater speed by the time the club reaches the ball. This way there are less things to do with the arms and it gives the hands to move faster and provide power into the ball. The club then leads the body to turn with the arms that move towards, through the ball, and to a natural finish.
Zach- I have to respectfully disagree with you on your PC comments. PC is absolutely not suggesting that you should roll your right forearm over into impact. In fact in the Maude video and others-including Andy Carter and including his DVD- he specifically states this. If you spin your right forearm down like he is suggesting the inside of your right elbow faces out and does not roll over. There are many ways to hit a golf ball- so there is room for different approaches- but to be honest I have never seen a weekend amateur golfer swing the golf club like Ben Hogan- so all this talk about swinging like him is probably more wishful thinking than something that’s ever going to happen with most people. The main differences in their respective approaches- PC and BH- seem to be “pressure down”- PC- versus “rotary”generation of power- BH. I suspect neither is all right or all wrong- but given that most ams slice the ball- badly- throwing their torso and shoulders out around and left -and twisting their right arm over their left in the DS-even as they manage to leave the face open-their just might be some room for a different view- and it might be worth a try for some people?? I would say the way PC often describes his concepts can be difficult for many to understand- but his concepts certainly warrant a fair hearing it seems rather than another recital of the BH mantras that virtually no one can execute anyway?
Totally agree with you! I watched that video with PC and DM and it totally changed my ball striking and accuracy. It really squared the club up at impact and narrowed my dispersion pattern particularly with my higher lofted clubs.
LD-I have had a similar experience except I have to say it it seems to be a Herculean effort to try and do it consistently and get the “rotaries” and Ben Hogan approaches out of my golf swing after hitting 297,000 practice balls the last 10 years trying to put all those things into my golf swing-and winding up with an ingrained lunge, over the top, around the body golf swing. Sigh….. Swinging more vertical on the way up-versus flat ala Hardy, Hogan and somewhat flat in the case of Bradley Hughes-and so many other approaches like them -and more at a 45 deg angle on the way down-and not trying to get total separation between my upper and lower body while wrenching my left femur from the hip socket to start down-yields fantastic results when I can actually do it-but years of doing it differently is proving difficult to get rid of. I even went and took lessons for a couple days some years back from Bradley-and I still found lot get that shallow/open face downswing to work. I simply love the idea of spinning down and pressuring down using my strength and ground forces to generate pressure on the shaft-and having the timing of my hip turn become much more a result of rather the cause of something I did-I just wish damnit I could not “revert” so often. I think it makes perfect sense that your early results are particularly good with your shorter more lofted clubs because it seems easier to generate that downward pressure on these clubs and squeeze the ball between the lofted face and the ground!! So glad to hear this is working for you--thanks so much for sharing your experience. DK
The graphs that Zach Allen shows in the video are by Jon Sinclair who has captured literally hundreds of tour pro swings using a 3D inertial sensor system called 'AMM 3D'. Jon Sinclair also produced trail forearm graphs for 65 of the best tour pros (PGA and Major winners). Their average trail forearm graph shows supination as Zach has described in the video until maybe P6.5 (ie. maybe 2-3 foot from impact). That is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what Pete Cowen is advocating and I doubt very much that the 3D graphs of the pros he is coaching will show early pronation/spinning of the trail forearm. I've heard Pete Cowen talking about natural forces and physics , but I don't think he understands the physics of the golf swing at all. He may be the world's best coach but his explanation of what he thinks is happening in the golf swing is unscientific. However , if it works for you then fine but I am surprised that he doesn't look at the data first before advocating this spinning of the trail forearm. Maybe he can also provide proof that the spinning of the trail forearm can create more compression of the golf ball in the 0.0004 secs that the clubface is in contact with the golf ball (for a typical 100 mph clubhead speed at impact).
The problem with Cowen is he makes no sense to the average listener. Interpreting him is like interpreting modern art that looks like a toddler threw a can of paint on a wall. There may be some genius in there, but you need to be the special few gallery walkers that claim to know what he means. I agree with coach on this one.
Zach.....you always produce really good content and yes this video with Danny M. could lead someone down a path of trouble for sure. My take is Pete has a way with every student to give a key feel that works for their current skill level and swing. Danny came into this lesson with very solid skills. Feel is hardly ever real in this game as you know. I think what was intresting was that Danny ended up hitting some good looking compressed bullets. Any way it was Danny's video that he produced and it sure got some play. Love your work Thx
Interesting comments, but in your other video ruclips.net/video/4hU0paE9ArE/видео.html Now I know you will say you are saying to tuck your right elbow and turn the left hand under to deloft the club, but try Pete Cowan's move while swinging the club. I suggest it is the same as what you are showing, you are just using different feels for the same thing. I tried the Cowan feel and couldn't get it, but by using the feel for the left hand turning under it did what he said and what you say in the video I have linked to. Repeating the left wrist feel I can now feel the right forearm feel and I can also feel what you describe and I stand by them being the same thing. Pete Cowan appears to be poor at explaining to those that don't just get it and need a better explanation, he sounds like my old maths teacher who was the same; just repeating the same words as though you didn't hear the first time. So a good teacher of those whom already understand..
Ya I think some of it lies in when you are spinning the right arm down, or supinating the lead wrist. His explanation was more from the very beginning of the downswing. I believe it’s not actively happening for most until about trail thigh club parallel to the ground.
@@ZachAllenGolf It is difficult to know where he is saying to do it because he doesn't say, but I would have thought watching him it is at least after transition.. Today after reading your reply I tried the Cowan move from the top and I couldn't stop casting, if I hit the ball squarely it was worm burner, however doing it progressively after I shift forward and allowing my arms to drop I can do it. So to me starting at or after the shaft reaches vertical. Again as I said earlier my feel is the left wrist turning anti-clockwise and under (left palm up, but of course even with the shaft lean produced the hands need to be forward enough to not chunk it. For me still a work in progress.
Its a hard move without activating the wrist and hand which is a disaster. I can do it with wedges up to P wedge and the compression sound is addictive. I just don't see how it works with anything above 8i. Driver? no way
Vehemently disagree with Zachs opinion of Mr. Cowens advice. Rotating the forearm controls the clubface for straight shots. BTW, a PW, a 56 and a putter still wins tournaments.
I'm not a fan of shallowing the club, at least not the way you describe it.. Flatten the swing yes. But, if you rotate that forearm open like that, it's going to cause problems with the average player. In fact, I think most average players shallow the club to the point that they have nowhere to go but over the top. Julius Boros had a book on the square to square swing. That was my bible growing up. You must keep the club square for solid and reliable contact.
I think that Pete Cowen was trying to improve a very good player, Danny Maude. What wasn’t said, and this happens in a lot of golf videos, there was no explanation of who this video will help. Was it for the mid-level and high-level handicapper. I don’t think so.
Zach. I’m going to have to disagree. As far as Tiger goes, you have to watch more than just a snippet from that program. There’s several videos out there where Tiger says he doesn’t think about the hips, that he’s focused on his hands. His hands hit the ball and the body follows. He starts his downswing with his hands, not his hips. I don’t know if disputing Pete is going to gain you a whole lot. He’s a golfing icon with plenty of Major Championships winners under his instruction. Whether you agree or disagree, the juice ain’t worth the squeeze on this one. I wish you the best and I’ll keep watching and learning from you!😊
As someone else posted, working with elite players is totally different than hacks like us. I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't want to be bothered teaching 1 of us. Even if he would, we couldn't afford him. I'm willing to bet that Zach has to work 10 times as hard as any elite coach to develop a swing with an unskilled amateur.
Totally disagree. Cowen is right and if done correctly ball is nicely compressed resulting in low penetrating flight. Technique should be identical for your player and recreational golfer.
I completely disagree. Same as I disagree with Sean Foley, which seems to be what you’re teaching. Even Ben Hogan has found to be inaccurate in 5 Lessons. It’s a feel vs real thing for Hogan. Getting “stuck” and flipping is not good. The big muscles will always defeat the small muscles. That is the biggest issue with getting stuck. Tiger proves this with his lack of success and injuries under Foley. Most of Tiger’s wins came under Butch Harmon who eliminated getting stuck and flipping. Almost 4x as many wins than under Foley. And god knows how many surgeries. You’re off even on the “pronation vs supination” thing. Hogan is referring to the wrists pronating in the swing, not getting stuck by letting the club lag behind. Besides injury, getting stuck inside leads to more problems in the swing such as flipping, early extension, hips stopping, deceleration, etc. Like is said, I completely disagree.
Nowhere in the cowen video do you see him demonstrating forearm pronation, with regards to “spinning it down”. He is not referring to twisting the forearm he is referring to the forearm like a pinwheel with that center of the pinwheel at the elbow. He in fact actively speaks against any kind of flipping over technique. I think you have misinterpreted him badly
Pete Cowen is missing exactly what is happening at that crucial point of the swing. Go read about Sasho MacKenzie's research on the center-of-mass of the club head needing to pass below the hand path. Pete Cowen is not expressing that move properly. He is advocating kicking the club head out at the ball at that crucial moment, not in allowing the very alien feel of having the club head pass below the hand path or in other words, below his hands and wrists. It's a very alien feel initially which is probably why a lot of pros can't tell you what is happening either. Somehow they get it early on or they get a very good instructor. For an amateur, probably Pete's instruction suffices for giving the amateur a pretty good game.
Sorry to disagree with you all, but this move of "spinning the right arm down", has helped me compress the ball so much better. I,m not a low handicapper, but l,ve seen tremendous improvement in my swing since watching this Maude/Cowen video. I,m on the practice ground between 4-8 hrs every week. I've watched the video more than a dozen times now,just to pick up on every aspect of what Pete,s talking about. You're not going to pick it all up in one watch. This is a fantastic swing for getting out of light rough as well, l,ve found.
I agree. I’m a 1 handicap and this is a game changer for me.
I agree
I am a great fan of Pete Cowen over many years BUT I am 100 % with you on this one, Zach.
Its so much better and more powerful FOR ME to swing as you demonstrate in this video
GREAT VIDEO - thanks
Thanks
In the Danny Maude video, Pete Cowen never spoke about spinning down or pronating the right arm from the top of the backswing. In all his videos he speaks about the 45 degree angle coming down actually supinating the right arm by bringing the elbow in and in front. In the DM video he is always refering to what the right arm does from delivery position. And this is definitely a sort of spinning down the forearm with a bit of pronation of the wrists to keep the pressure on the shaft.
What do mean pressure on the shaft? The shaft is in forward bend as the clubface impacts the ball for full swings from 5 iron to driver . The amount of time that the clubface is in contact with the ball is 0.0004 secs , therefore by the time that ball/clubface collision 'impact wave' travels up to the grip (ie. you feel the impact vibration wave via your hands) , the ball is already in flight. You can't be putting pressure on the golf shaft before impact for a full driver swing. This is where 'feel' isn't real and you need to understand the physics of what is happening. You might feel pressure on the shaft for short punch shots out of the rough and where the shaft may be in slight backward bend, but not for a full driver swing.
I couldn't quite get what Pete Cowen was explaining. Your lesson has cleared this up for me. Without it being clear exactly what Pete was talking about, I hit a lot of weird, bad shots at the range. Hitting shots after listening to you has made a vast improvement. Thank you for the clarification!
Thanks, glad I was able to help👍🏻
I am guilty of going down this rabbit hole. I listened to Pete Cowen, Danny Maude and Andy Carter. My golf index is 1.6. My swing produces a draw but when I go bad I come into the ball way to far on the inside. This generates a big draw or a pull draw. I watched a Pete Cowen video that discussed how to keep the right elbow from getting behind you in the backswing. Basically swing back with a cross handed grip. It actually works really well. He then got me on the spinning right arm on the downswing. I still don't think I really understand what to do. I liked the concept because it appears that it reduces wrist hinge (flipping)coming through impact and also has a more steep approach to the ball. I like the idea of reducing my inside swing path and also reducing a flipping motion at impact. I have a fast swing speed (126 mph driver). That is my best not my average. I am going back to what you are advocating and just trying to find a new way to reduce my inside swing path. Thanks for the video!
Good luck friend, that club speed is fantastic!
Thank you, I thought the same thing when I watched the video! It confused me and I'm glad you brought me back to what I need to be working!
My interpretation is different. I understand it as simply lowering and straightening the trail arm (extension) without any forearm pronation and maintaining wrist extension. In the clip, Danny demonstrates an example with forearm pronation to clarify the incorrect motion.
Learning this move from Pete really helped me understand how to get my hands and club down so I can turn through without swinging over the top.
Not sure why he refers to it as "spinning" the arm down as that does suggest twisting or pronation. Perhaps it's a reference to his spiral staircase analogy, and the spinning is how the arm travels around the body as it turns.
What i see is the ‘spinning’ action is not done in front of the body but more at
the side and the wrist/palm of the right hand appears to move down wards (as the forearm/elbow move in front of his chest! It helped me
There is a lot more to the Danny M. Video than presented here. The mini swing in Danny’s video is better to understand what Pete is saying. I have found Pete very helpful. My play striking consistency is much better along with speed. I was a 10 handicap but should be a bit better with the improvements. A key for me which Pete talks about is spinning the right forearm not into the ground but into the back of the ball while not losing the right wrist. Cover the ball with the chest or rotate the chest with rotation while rotating the left hip out of the way. Seems to happen together. Works well for me. Speed is good too. Spinning the right forearm down while not losing the right wrist keeps the right elbow in front of my body as I rotate.
Yes, Zach I agree with you. I had watched Danny's video with Pete probably 4 times all the way through and honestly never really understood the movement Pete was describing ( and it seemed like Danny didn't completely understand the movement either). Danny gears most of his videos to the mid to high index players, so when you pointed out how this movement is really for the elite players it made much more sense to me. As I tried making that movement it never felt comfortable to me. Thank you for explaining it in a way that I could comprehend.
I have watched the Pete Cowen/ Danny Maude video several times and took it to the range 2-3 times. I’m not having success like I thought I would and will now try your approach.
Im glad Zach brought this topic. I felt strange of Pete asking to spin, didn't make sense.
I am not sure that the interpretation of Pete Cowens video is really that what he meant. If the right hand at the top is in extension and it goes over supination and ulneral deviation down to the impact, the right arm has to go external until one comes into a beautiful hitting configuration with external arm and right wrist in UD and extension. I really want to come into this position because in this movement pattern You get a stable face through impact (easier ball flight control). The alternative pattern that You have suggested seems to have a high face rotation at impact, that would not be my preference, I admit that You can hit the ball a long way but not with my skills and my time for practising. I love Your channel and this open discussions.😀👍
Zach, I am watching your videos with particular attention and actually I am getting the point very good. Congratulations for your nice explanations!
Thanks for this Zach. I’ve watched Danny’s video a couple of times and it made no sense to me. You’re a brave man to go against the wrath of PC. I go with your version.
I appreciate that!
As long as you’re connected you can go as hard as you want. I feel that an effortless goal (with speed) of course is the safest way to get it where you want it to go. The tough part is staying away from releasing too early.
Love your stuff Zach, however if you notice on PC’s full video, he has D Maude in practice, have him turn the clubface down to the ball from DELIVERY position and not from the start of downswing. His work on the 3 forces in the swing movement is superb. The ‘down’ has the effect into delivery which has effect of lateral which has effect of rotational . The lateral and rotational are therefore effects not conscious moves.
Some valid points. There is alot going on in the forces at the grip during this period. And I’m not saying that spinning the right arm down force doesn’t occur at all, but more so what is a good feel for most recreational golfers.
@@ZachAllenGolf ye that’s the issue the golf industry has in relation to instruction I believe. Feels observations etc are always subjective, so varying statements are made. Think I’ll write a book on golf terms 😁 keep up the good work . Anytime in Scotland , be great to share ideas.
Agree with you, I tried the Cowen approach which compresses the ball but not necessarily hit as far
Nice
The problem with supinating and having the rear elbow stuck into the belly as you demonstrate is that the hands get high and swinging out toward the ball encouraging shanks and heel shots. I haven't watched the Maude and Cowen video in a while, but as Pete said in the clip you shared he's doing it with the forearm. He is not advocating the shoulder or upper arm doing that motion. I've seen lots of people on driving ranges and golf courses trying to rotate open (with their body), rotate fast (with their body), drive their right elbow toward the body or the target, drag the handle to get shaft lean, or be passive with their arm motion (and end up in a lot of side bend/side tilt), and not one of them has been a long hitter, nor a solid ball striker.
I will agree that the turning of the forearm down may not be a good focus for everyone, and given how quickly the swing from top to impact is thinking about a move and actually getting it to occur may be a wasted effort. For people shanking, heeling, or leaving the clubface open at impact the throwing the forearm down may be a worthwhile thought if they can do it in the proper way.
I saw the Pete Cowen video a few months back and tried on the range and all it did was help compress the shot, however the ball went really low and not as far. I agree with you on this one, it is not for everyone. Your explanation makes more sense. Thanks and keep up the good work, now I see videos of Porzak golf where he advocates the hip bump on the set up to the left, can you clarify that as well?
You're both right! To me Pete is describing "his" sensation, not what actually occurs. If you watch closely, you and Pete are "really" making the exact same moves, it's just the way you each experience, and describe, that movement. Pete's explanation will work for some (as you suggest it seems to work well for high level players). And your explanation will better work for other players. This happens ALL THE TIME in golf instruction! Feel isn't real, and sometimes even what you SEE isn't real, that is it doesn't match the sensation of the person you are watching. Anyway you can, and I think are BOTH RIGHT.
Even Hogan said that what he's talking about isn't really what he's doing but rather what he feels.
Respectfully, Cowen is keeping the forearm supinated on the spin down. I think you misinterpreted what he was saying or demonstrated. Cowen is spot on. You're kind of saying similar things.
This is a great video! Great explanation! If the downswing is correct, the release is natural. It’s the same w throwing the baseball, you have no choice but to release your hand because of the centrifugal force cause by the weight of the object. Remember Danny M described problems implementing Cowens recommendations this in his game…
Hi Zach; when teachers are trying to make a correction, do they not over exaggerate the move & then begin to move backward to what the normal position would be? The hard rotation of the arm is just the exaggeration to get the proper feeling of what he's trying to get the person to feel. It's like getting someone to quit slicing by teaching them to hook the ball to develop the swing to get them hitting it straight. I'd definitely agree that if he's really recommending that rotation as he's showing it, he's either misleading or wrong. It seems that if you rotate the arm that way, you'd definitely be hitting big hooks or pulls. I rotate my arm that way but not until after impact. Thanks for your view on this as it could cause a big problem for weekend golfers. As an update, also thanks for having the guts to push back on someone who's known as 1 of the greatest. Being 1 of the greatest doesn't mean you're always right.
Great points my friend.
Thanks Zach. Anoher interesting and helpful video lesson. I completely agree that there are definite differences in mechanics and thus instruction details for elite versus non elite players.
Like all of your content. I think you are both talking about the same thing and agree with the other comment that talks about a weak grip. After I saw the PC video I watched everything of his I could get my hands on. I still have difficulty with this move but it is about squaring the club face and the feel to do that. You have to be careful that you don't make it an over the top move. But if you look at Zach's club face when he is talking about Hogan and moving your hips first which brings the club down, the face is wide open. The PC move really helps close that face and lets you keep rotating through the ball.
There is definitely an art to maintaining lag, and still being able to square the face.
I had to watch DM's video with Pete numerous times before I got what he was trying to convey with spinning of the forearm. What I finally got was, that when the club is parallel to the ground during the downswing, just before contact is when he says to spin the trail forearm down and through the ball to create that punchy compression feel and sound. I didn't think he suggested to start spinning the forearm down until that point. But on the other side of the coin of what you're saying, I agree with you that that move is not for some or even many amateurs. I think it's more for those who have a decent understanding of how the swing should be on a pro level. Even if their swing is not on a pro level, as long as you understand the concept.
Very well said.
I do agree more so of the timing for the release of the right arm as you outline and think PC was more talking about the move / thought in general because the millisecond of timing difference may have the player hold onto the club too long (amateur better player - maybe). One thing that didn't make sense to me was the explanation of getting stuck. I think a lot of amateurs without an over the top swing (really limits the number of amateurs considered...) get stuck with the hips getting out in-front and the rear elbow stuck behind. With that is the flip or push and two sided miss... I don't think it is getting the elbow in-front of hip and stuck? Could be wrong for sure but have been a flipper at times and was closer to the hips getting out early... Will try out your visualization next time out for sure...
You might need to work on your hip depth, to help create some room for your arms.
Thanks Zach, this is helpful.
I don't think I've felt "stuck", just the opposite. In fact it might be interesting to see a video which teaches you the feeling of being "stuck" just to get the sensation of what it is when you hear it mentioned.
You are 100% right. The more I supinate and the further a do it the straighter and further I hit the ball. How does this apply to the driver?
I agree with you Zack and was very confused with Cowen’s description. That said, whether it be the hips leading or the spin, I view it as the free ride of Hogan leading to almost a Spider-Man web move with the trail hand almost as if I’m throwing a ball like a submariner (think Kent Tekulve or Dan Quisenberry).
Zach: my understanding of getting stuck is that your elbow is “stuck” to the seam of your shirt on the way down and does not get in front. This seems to be the case when Tiger demonstrates his Ole swing in the video clip. It seems to me that PCs spinning down eliminates getting stuck especially when you consider the downward (axe) motion of arms that PC talks about.
The right elbow feeling like it is ahead of your forearm is the tip that helps me.
Always better to learn from someone who deals with amateurs instead of professionals. Look to Zachs consistency code for basics valuable for us.
Thanks for the support
Zach, I dissent from the other commenters. I am in complete agreement with you. Pete Cowen did actually spin his right arm which will do exactly what you said would happen. Danny Maude actually had to clarify his comment. Cowen and others believe a proper release mimics throwing a ball down at the ground just in front of where the ball would be teed. I disagree with that teaching. I believe the action of the right arm is very similar to that of throwing a frisbee or skipping a flat stone across a pond. It’s much more a side arm action driven by the hips and lower body than any kind of down turn or spin of the right arm/wrist. The only caution with the side arm action is leaving the face open but usually that is the product of rolling the face open on the takeaway.
Zach: Quick question about this comment Cowen made about right hand pressure. Couples, Singh, Michelson all have the right hand seemingly coming off the club at impact (RUclips video - Fred Couples' secret). Clay Ballard has a video about not having right hand pressure on the shaft. Is this just a matter of right side pushing or left side pulling? Chuck Quinton(Rotary golf) also mentions his right hand is almost off the club since he prefers left side pulling and shows this in a video. Marcus Edblad strongly believes in pushing from the right. I have to lighten up with the right hand like the aforementioned guys or I go off the rails. Can you comment on this? Not everybody is using this right hand pressure like Cowen said. There's plenty of solid video evidence of this. Thanks.
Some great points there and definitely some variations on how that right hand feels releasing the club. I definitely feel like the average player would benefit from a more free wheeling release of the right hand.
I believe Zach is a more intelligent and analytical instructor that is 100% consistent in his approach. I agree with his comments about Pete's comments.
I am sticking with Zach !!
Thanks for those kind words.
The golf swing has changed over the years, along with the equipment, the technology, the instruction, and the courses we play that the average golfer is paralyzed. Go play with the time and swing you have and try to enjoy the day.
I agree with you 100% Zach, I never understood "spinning". Very confusing and misleading!!
Another benefit of Moe Norman's Master Move is to strike the pose, then hold that as a package and take it to the top, then back to the Master Move, then back to the top...start to feel the clockwise nature of transition and the start of the downswing as a result of the hips opening. So, so much becomes automatic when you get this movement from the top.
Rick I got a reply notice saying you had replied to a comment with the content below-but cannot find it on here. Thought I would see if you could clarify some of it for me?
Here is your note in the reply notice:
->Pete Cowen is missing exactly what is happening at that crucial point of the swing. Go read about Sasho MacKenzie's research on the center-of-mass of the club head needing to pass below the hand path. Pete Cowen is not expressing that move properly. He is advocating kicking the club head out at the ball at that crucial moment, not in allowing the very alien feel of having the club head pass below the hand path or in other words, below his hands and wrists. It's a very alien feel initially which is probably why a lot of pros can't tell you what is happening either. Somehow they get it early on or they get a very good instructor. For an amateur, probably Pete's instruction suffices for giving the amateur a pretty good game.
In any event maybe you could clarify a few points for me. A) the mass of the clubhead below the hand path. This seems to imply the mass of the clubhead would pass under or inside of the hand path? Wouldn’t this require an extremely steep shaft olane? B)you mentioned Pete Cowen is advocating that the clubhead “tip” out? Can you tell me where he says that in the Maude video? I have never heard that despite listening to this video probably 30 times or so and I want to make sure I am not missing something. Tx DK
It's hard to explain, because it's so insidious and undetectable in the speed of the downswing. Assuming your motion from the top is clockwise, as evidenced by your right palm and right elbow pit are pointing away from you and your elbow has automatically moved in front of you, then right before club parallel to the target line your wrists go into ulnar deviation dropping the club head underneath your hands and below the hand path. The angle of attack is really quite shallow from that move. The amateur and I think the way Pete Cowen explains it, at the point of right before club parallel to the target line, he would suggest that your right hand starts to square the face, your right shoulder goes prematurely into internal rotation, and you'll never ever feel what it's like to have an inside to inside golf swing. As I've written in another response on this video, Moe Norman's famous Master Move pose shows the point right before the ulnar deviation and passing the center of mass of the club under the hand path. I wrote an ebook on Moe's Master Move if you're interested in pursuing what I'm saying.@@Dkiash
Thanks for clarifying Rick! Not sure I got all of that but I think I have the basic idea. D
I met Pete Cowan when he was a yongster on the then Safari Tour to Zambia. He is now a highly respected coach but I must say the hand action he suggests and which you are referring to does not seem very sensible. I am a bit of an Erika Larkin fan and her approach of letting gravity do the work. My own golf is unlikley to evolve much further if at all as i am now over 80 years but have had much pleasure in my life from the game and the compnaionship. And by the way thanks for your lessons. They always make sense.
At 9minutes 45 seconds into the video Zach talks about “NOT” using the muscles of the right arm in the downswing. If you are you are creating to much tension in those muscles and you’re trying to hit the ball too hard. That’s not good. Listen to what Zach is teaching you. “ you need to let it go“! Great teacher great lesson.
My 2 cents.
I noticed Pete on his backswing tend to be more classical, at the same time he has a rather weak right hand grip(his words). His doesn't seem to bow his wrist on the downswing thus he needs to incorporate the motion that promoted...meaning a rather active wrists.
Please advice...thanks for your contributions👍
I agree with you if we are young and fit with a faster swing speed. But I agree with Peter Cowan at my age of 77 years with a slower swing speed..i cannot drive the ball as far been older. But I spend more time on the fairway than the younger players. To reach the green I'm using say a 5 iron were the younger player is using a 7 iron but not from under trees.
I had to change my swing or give up golf. I've been playing golf for 69 years, and had no wish to play bowels. At a 4 handycap age does weary us with that age we must change. I don't have that timing ability of youth I need more time to strike the ball.
When Hogan was swinging, he didn’t have his left shoulder high like it is in that graphic.
Yes true this was just a practice demo position.
I tried this move a few years back. Didn't work for me at all. Whenever i tried to spin it, i stalled and extended early. I watched Danny clip multiple times and still couldn't get my hand around this.
Ya that’s another point, when some actively push down with the arms the body reacts by standing up.
i agree it is one less thing to think about
The energy in the golf swing comes from gravity (small amount) and body rotation. The arms passively transfer the energy to the club head at impact. Trying to consciously manipulate the club handle during the brief time from shaft parallel to impact is a fool’s errand. I agree Pete is talking about a feel but not anything the golfer can influence so late in the swing.
I don't see how it's possible to have passive arms & still create 125 clubhead speed. If the arms are passive, speed has to come from the hands & wrists & that requires perfect timing which few of us will ever have.The fall from gravity wouldn't fly the ball 100 yards even with the body rotation. I'm certainly not a pro & am a bit out of my lane but I'll always believe that grip pressure is either the best friend or worst enemy of any player & it's likely the least emphasized by pros who teach beginners & high handicappers. No matter how you swing the club, too much grip pressure will kill power.
I agree with you Zach. I believe the average golfer needs to be supinating the right arm to shallow the club on the way down. With all due respect to Pete Cowen, I don't think he is a coach for the average golfer.
Thanks definitely might not be the best for the average player.
I seems it depends on the golfer.
There are some like Tiger and Nicklaus that talk about greater width at the top and letting the club drop with momentum to provide greater speed by the time the club reaches the ball.
This way there are less things to do with the arms and it gives the hands to move faster and provide power into the ball. The club then leads the body to turn with the arms that move towards, through the ball, and to a natural finish.
Ya definitely some different tendencies out there. Tiger and Jack are two of the most athletic swings ever.
I think Colin Murakawa is the most obvious compression like what pete is talking about.
Zach- I have to respectfully disagree with you on your PC comments. PC is absolutely not suggesting that you should roll your right forearm over into impact. In fact in the Maude video and others-including Andy Carter and including his DVD- he specifically states this. If you spin your right forearm down like he is suggesting the inside of your right elbow faces out and does not roll over. There are many ways to hit a golf ball- so there is room for different approaches- but to be honest I have never seen a weekend amateur golfer swing the golf club like Ben Hogan- so all this talk about swinging like him is probably more wishful thinking than something that’s ever going to happen with most people. The main differences in their respective approaches- PC and BH- seem to be “pressure down”- PC- versus “rotary”generation of power- BH. I suspect neither is all right or all wrong- but given that most ams slice the ball- badly- throwing their torso and shoulders out around and left -and twisting their right arm over their left in the DS-even as they manage to leave the face open-their just might be some room for a different view- and it might be worth a try for some people?? I would say the way PC often describes his concepts can be difficult for many to understand- but his concepts certainly warrant a fair hearing it seems rather than another recital of the BH mantras that virtually no one can execute anyway?
Totally agree with you! I watched that video with PC and DM and it totally changed my ball striking and accuracy. It really squared the club up at impact and narrowed my dispersion pattern particularly with my higher lofted clubs.
LD-I have had a similar experience except I have to say it it seems to be a Herculean effort to try and do it consistently and get the “rotaries” and Ben Hogan approaches out of my golf swing after hitting 297,000 practice balls the last 10 years trying to put all those things into my golf swing-and winding up with an ingrained lunge, over the top, around the body golf swing. Sigh…..
Swinging more vertical on the way up-versus flat ala Hardy, Hogan and somewhat flat in the case of Bradley Hughes-and so many other approaches like them -and more at a 45 deg angle on the way down-and not trying to get total separation between my upper and lower body while wrenching my left femur from the hip socket to start down-yields fantastic results when I can actually do it-but years of doing it differently is proving difficult to get rid of.
I even went and took lessons for a couple days some years back from Bradley-and I still found lot get that shallow/open face downswing to work.
I simply love the idea of spinning down and pressuring down using my strength and ground forces to generate pressure on the shaft-and having the timing of my hip turn become much more a result of rather the cause of something I did-I just wish damnit I could not “revert” so often.
I think it makes perfect sense that your early results are particularly good with your shorter more lofted clubs because it seems easier to generate that downward pressure on these clubs and squeeze the ball between the lofted face and the ground!! So glad to hear this is working for you--thanks so much for sharing your experience. DK
I am either you Zach
Hit vs a Swing.
Good point my friend someone has read the golf machine.
The graphs that Zach Allen shows in the video are by Jon Sinclair who has captured literally hundreds of tour pro swings using a 3D inertial sensor system called 'AMM 3D'. Jon Sinclair also produced trail forearm graphs for 65 of the best tour pros (PGA and Major winners). Their average trail forearm graph shows supination as Zach has described in the video until maybe P6.5 (ie. maybe 2-3 foot from impact). That is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of what Pete Cowen is advocating and I doubt very much that the 3D graphs of the pros he is coaching will show early pronation/spinning of the trail forearm. I've heard Pete Cowen talking about natural forces and physics , but I don't think he understands the physics of the golf swing at all. He may be the world's best coach but his explanation of what he thinks is happening in the golf swing is unscientific. However , if it works for you then fine but I am surprised that he doesn't look at the data first before advocating this spinning of the trail forearm. Maybe he can also provide proof that the spinning of the trail forearm can create more compression of the golf ball in the 0.0004 secs that the clubface is in contact with the golf ball (for a typical 100 mph clubhead speed at impact).
The problem with Cowen is he makes no sense to the average listener. Interpreting him is like interpreting modern art that looks like a toddler threw a can of paint on a wall. There may be some genius in there, but you need to be the special few gallery walkers that claim to know what he means. I agree with coach on this one.
Zach.....you always produce really good content and yes this video with Danny M. could lead someone down a path of trouble for sure. My take is Pete has a way with every student to give a key feel that works for their current skill level and swing. Danny came into this lesson with very solid skills. Feel is hardly ever real in this game as you know. I think what was intresting was that Danny ended up hitting some good looking compressed bullets. Any way it was Danny's video that he produced and it sure got some play. Love your work Thx
Interesting comments, but in your other video
ruclips.net/video/4hU0paE9ArE/видео.html
Now I know you will say you are saying to tuck your right elbow and turn the left hand under to deloft the club, but try Pete Cowan's move while swinging the club. I suggest it is the same as what you are showing, you are just using different feels for the same thing.
I tried the Cowan feel and couldn't get it, but by using the feel for the left hand turning under it did what he said and what you say in the video I have linked to.
Repeating the left wrist feel I can now feel the right forearm feel and I can also feel what you describe and I stand by them being the same thing.
Pete Cowan appears to be poor at explaining to those that don't just get it and need a better explanation, he sounds like my old maths teacher who was the same; just repeating the same words as though you didn't hear the first time. So a good teacher of those whom already understand..
Ya I think some of it lies in when you are spinning the right arm down, or supinating the lead wrist. His explanation was more from the very beginning of the downswing. I believe it’s not actively happening for most until about trail thigh club parallel to the ground.
@@ZachAllenGolf It is difficult to know where he is saying to do it because he doesn't say, but I would have thought watching him it is at least after transition..
Today after reading your reply I tried the Cowan move from the top and I couldn't stop casting, if I hit the ball squarely it was worm burner, however doing it progressively after I shift forward and allowing my arms to drop I can do it. So to me starting at or after the shaft reaches vertical. Again as I said earlier my feel is the left wrist turning anti-clockwise and under (left palm up, but of course even with the shaft lean produced the hands need to be forward enough to not chunk it. For me still a work in progress.
Its a hard move without activating the wrist and hand which is a disaster. I can do it with wedges up to P wedge and the compression sound is addictive. I just don't see how it works with anything above 8i. Driver? no way
Ya there is not much loft on a driver, and spinning that right arm down can definitely shut the face.
Vehemently disagree with Zachs opinion of Mr. Cowens advice. Rotating the forearm controls the clubface for straight shots.
BTW, a PW, a 56 and a putter still wins tournaments.
Totally fine, respect your opinion as well as Pete’s
I'm not a fan of shallowing the club, at least not the way you describe it.. Flatten the swing yes. But, if you rotate that forearm open like that, it's going to cause problems with the average player. In fact, I think most average players shallow the club to the point that they have nowhere to go but over the top. Julius Boros had a book on the square to square swing. That was my bible growing up. You must keep the club square for solid and reliable contact.
Def wreck my wrist doing this move
I think that Pete Cowen was trying to improve a very good player, Danny Maude. What wasn’t said, and this happens in a lot of golf videos, there was no explanation of who this video will help. Was it for the mid-level and high-level handicapper. I don’t think so.
I concur your comments. This Zach person is no authority.
Zach. I’m going to have to disagree. As far as Tiger goes, you have to watch more than just a snippet from that program. There’s several videos out there where Tiger says he doesn’t think about the hips, that he’s focused on his hands. His hands hit the ball and the body follows. He starts his downswing with his hands, not his hips. I don’t know if disputing Pete is going to gain you a whole lot. He’s a golfing icon with plenty of Major Championships winners under his instruction. Whether you agree or disagree, the juice ain’t worth the squeeze on this one. I wish you the best and I’ll keep watching and learning from you!😊
As someone else posted, working with elite players is totally different than hacks like us. I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't want to be bothered teaching 1 of us. Even if he would, we couldn't afford him. I'm willing to bet that Zach has to work 10 times as hard as any elite coach to develop a swing with an unskilled amateur.
Totally disagree. Cowen is right and if done correctly ball is nicely compressed resulting in low penetrating flight.
Technique should be identical for your player and recreational golfer.
I completely disagree. Same as I disagree with Sean Foley, which seems to be what you’re teaching. Even Ben Hogan has found to be inaccurate in 5 Lessons. It’s a feel vs real thing for Hogan. Getting “stuck” and flipping is not good. The big muscles will always defeat the small muscles. That is the biggest issue with getting stuck. Tiger proves this with his lack of success and injuries under Foley. Most of Tiger’s wins came under Butch Harmon who eliminated getting stuck and flipping. Almost 4x as many wins than under Foley. And god knows how many surgeries. You’re off even on the “pronation vs supination” thing. Hogan is referring to the wrists pronating in the swing, not getting stuck by letting the club lag behind. Besides injury, getting stuck inside leads to more problems in the swing such as flipping, early extension, hips stopping, deceleration, etc. Like is said, I completely disagree.
Nowhere in the cowen video do you see him demonstrating forearm pronation, with regards to “spinning it down”. He is not referring to twisting the forearm he is referring to the forearm like a pinwheel with that center of the pinwheel at the elbow. He in fact actively speaks against any kind of flipping over technique. I think you have misinterpreted him badly
Absolutely- well said!!!
Pete Cowen is missing exactly what is happening at that crucial point of the swing. Go read about Sasho MacKenzie's research on the center-of-mass of the club head needing to pass below the hand path. Pete Cowen is not expressing that move properly. He is advocating kicking the club head out at the ball at that crucial moment, not in allowing the very alien feel of having the club head pass below the hand path or in other words, below his hands and wrists. It's a very alien feel initially which is probably why a lot of pros can't tell you what is happening either. Somehow they get it early on or they get a very good instructor. For an amateur, probably Pete's instruction suffices for giving the amateur a pretty good game.