Actually they didn't stop selling them.They took the black coating off and changed the name to ranger and called it law enforcement ammo. They still sell it today although as time has gone on they have made some changes to it to improve it and keep up with newer technology. The hollow point is wider now they have made changes to the jacket etc etc but still retains slot from the original Black Talon.....but black talons are not illegal. They are just another hollow point bullet that had a name that freaked out liberals
I was under the assumption that congress did in fact ban them. I will have to do some more research. They dod however market them under another name. The ranger xst I believe.
I remember it. It was at the time when the buzz word that the anti gunners using was "Cop killer bullets". It was after "Saturday night special and before "Assault rifle".
NO IT IS NOT A RANGER T... it is identical to the PMC star fire Dont bother telling me im wrong. I know im 100% right. I have put the 2 cartridge side by side
I still have around 10,000 rounds of 9mm Black Talon and yes it is strictly for self defense for myself, and my wife (38 Special). I really stocked up because I had 2 sons and a daughter who are now of age to use them in the Browning Hi Powers that I also stocked at the time of their births. I bought Ruger10/22 for $89 each, and Mini 14 for $289 each in stainless. I am glad I did because my whole family now enjoys shooting and they all carry except the daughter who is still in the 1st grade. I reload on a Dillon 550B and I have a Unimat Lathe to make parts with. The government will never get my guns without a fight.
Yes I'll raised children. They are all NRA Lifetime members as well. I sleep very well, because unlike liberals, I have nothing and no one to fear. I don't threaten anyone, but I don't let anyone threaten me either. Be peaceful, and you can usually expect peace in return. Licensed gun carriers avoid altercations and are more aware than your usual yahoo yippee skippy hippy pothead out their in among the English.
Most of the people I see on youtube who own these have them purely as a collectors item. A DA would eat you alive if you used these.I personally like the PDX as it has great ballistics and is fairly easy to find(big+). In any case, carry a JHP that feeds reliably in your firearm. Bad guys aren't stopped by the best round, they are stopped by bullet placement and quick followup shots. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Anyway, great video as usual and thanks for the history lesson.
I won't lie being young living in Baltimore these bullets were legends. when biggie smalls rapped about these bullets that's how the bad name circulated and became "cop killers"
Yep. He mentioned Black Talons in his song Warning: "Bet you Biggie won't slip/I got the Calico with the Black Talons loaded in the clip/So I can rip through the ligaments/Put their bodies in the bad predicament/Where all the foul people went." I still have 3 boxes of .45 and 3 boxes of 9mm left from '92
@FaganRoberts Yes, you are correct. I simply always have my videos focused on DA's in the worst case scenario . Thnak you for your input. I appreciate it. Tom
Yes I still have some and i'm retired law enforcement and i'm going to keep on carrying them because we carried them on the job so that we didn't injure innocent by standers. They are a great round when used against the bad guys, end of story!!!
Ranger T-Series are the same cartridge without the black coating. It’s tremendous ammo when it expands. Meanest rounds I’ve ever seen that still penetrate 12-18”. HST’s, Gold Dots & Bonded Golden Sabors will expand more reliably but none of them are as mean as Winchester’s Ranger T’s/Black Talons.
@TWOMBS76 The PDX1 is the exact same thing, yes they have "talons" They have huge "petals' that fan out & will give surgeons the same problems they did 20 years ago.
The talons on the black talon were sharper than on the brass talon because old black talon had (sharp) short claws. The brass talon had long (fingers) claws. @8:48 pause. look careful and you can tell difference between short claws on black bullet and long claws on brass bullet. Good thing, I got them a lot many years ago.
Thank you so much for not naming any mass murders. I truly believe that if we quit giving them 15min of fame mass shooting will dwindle to little or none
Agreed. So tired of the media portraying every murderer or school shooter as some "tortured poor soul". It's a chemical imbalance in the brain, not a Shakespeare play.
@nehctik1986 I'll clarify that in a second video. The bottom line is we have to be aware that the D.A will deem them as Cop Killers... (even though they are not) I like to tell my audience to be on the safe side...No need for extra legal stuff...
My grandfather is a retired highway patrolman and he has some of this ammo. I didn't know what it was at the time, but he told me exactly what you just said as far as the story behind the ammo was. Pretty funny that someone actually believed this was designed for a specific race.
Winchester uses Lubalox still, but they have used it on very few bullets. The caliber they use it most on in 22LR. I know they use it on 1 30-30, 1 308win, 1 9mm. They may have more but it really is not widely used. If it works as a coating to protect your barrel I would prefer it on all bullets I use.
I still remember buying a used Jericho 941 a few years ago from a friend. It included a full magazine of 9mm black tallons. I took the gun to show my father which is a 60 years old Vietnam vet. He liked the gun but literally freaked out when he seen the magazine of the black tallons. He told me they were illegal cop killer ammo and told me to get rid of it. Me being me instead went home and researched it. I then had to explain this story to him.
I, too, am a huge fan of the "some asshole" rule. You know, instead of saying "Jack DeKiller committed that shooting" saying "Some asshole committed that shooting." Denies them the notoriety they crave.
They are still legal the Winchester "T" series is the black talon round without the black coating. Winchester volunteered to take it off the shelf but you can still buy it any day of the week.
Winchester never stopped making them. They made them before. They made them after and you can still buy them now. They are the silver tip handgun ammo. Anodizing them black was a marketing scheme. After a law suit or two the stopped coating them and kept right on making them uncoated. You can buy them in Surer X as well as the Lawman and Ranger packaging. Were did I get my story? The head mill wright at the Alton ammo plant in Alton ILL.
@VinnyS914 I can't believe every State does not allow there residents to protect themselves. This is why I am going to try to make a difference. Someone has to do it. THX Tom
I did not believe it at first, but the black talon round was designed to cut. The dry lubricant coating left residue in between the rifling, Even after excessive cleaning. and slowed the projectile between 100 to 300 feet per second depending on the caliber in question. Gun owners suspected that the dry lubricant residue could trap oxidizing agents in the gun barrel. Years later, it was found out that the Black Talon had the least stopping power of all hollow points.
You can buy them off the Gunbroker website and find them most of the time at gun & knife shows. You will pay a lot of money for black talon ammo! Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, and Winchester PDX-1 are just as good as Black Talon ammo.
ed911detroit Actually, the HST, PDX-1 and Ranger-T are better, they all use bonding technology. Also, Black Talons fragment to much, when they hit windshields or sheet-metal and not delivery effective stopping power, that a bonded round would.
An informative and well presented video. My story about the Black Talon starts around 1991/92 at the Long Beach CA Police Range. I walked into the store there and a bunch of guys was standing around looking a some photographs of lumps of what looked like amber jello, later I learned it was ballistic gel. Anyway the fellow who was making a presentation was pointing out the different types of penetration and damage that different rounds had made. I can only say that the damage made by the Black Talons a compared to other rounds was impressive. At the time I was carrying a very small .380 and the Black Talon .380 showed more damage to the ballistic gel then any of the then current ammo. I of course immediately purchased a half dozen boxes. And carried them for many years never firing a single round. I didn't practice with them as they were pricey in comparison to anything else. I still have those 6 boxes and since I see that one box is missing a few I guess I must have shot a few but have no recollection of the result. Subsequently I bought boxes of them in other calibers and likewise never shot any of them. I quit carrying them some few years later a I had moved on from the .380. I guess I have about 25 boxes of them packed away in an ammo box and unless there is a zombie apocalypse I'll end up bequeathing them to someone in my will.
I still have my Black Talons, I purchased them because of demo that was given to my department back in the day. The black talon is a hollow-point round and has the desired characteristics of a HP round as with all HP rounds it doesn't deflect as when it first hits it flowers which in turn causes a large vacuum and increased lethality, what was unique with the black talon was the "talon" which gave these cutting points on the round that aloud an even larger vacuum and some added penetration.
If I defended myself with Winchester Ranger T-series (147g 9mm) would that be against the law? I ask because I'm buying a used XDS-9 (with stainless slide :) and he's adding 100 rounds of it for $25 more. I live in Kansas if that helps.
**NOTE If you are wanting the "Talon" effect from the Winchester Ranger, you need the T-Series. The only way to tell is the product code ie. RA40T is code for 180 gr 40 cal. RA40TA is 165 gr 40 cal. RA380T, RA9T, RA45T. See your getting it. All other Rangers are bonded to the petals so you don't get sharp petals (Talons). Also the box may say Law Enforcement ammunition but anyone can own it. Some dealers only sell it to LE members but some sell to regular costumers too. Got mine at SGammo.com
These are the only hollow points I'd load up since they're 230 Grain +P. I like standard lead hollow points made of hard cast lead. It's a simple projectile and it'll mushroom out into a giant wadcutter. If it doesn't expand, you get a well penetrating round because it's hard cast.
The talons on the black talon were sharper than anything they've put out since then. HOWEVER, in a study, they found that the black talon was actually weaker than anything of it's time. It has way less energy than modern ammo, and the only reason you should buy it is if you got somebody who really wants it and you can get it online and then turn around and rip them off for more money lol
Very informative. My .45 ACP carry load is a Ranger T-series and my .40 load is a Winchester Bonded JHP (white, birth-control looking box; quite surprised I didn't find an NSN on it). I've always been a fan of the Winchester Ranger line of ammo. I think your assessment is spot on.
My EDC is a Sig Sauer P320 compact running PDX-1 9mm +p ammunition. I had no idea about black talon, but I know a lot about ranger t ammo and it’s hard to find. PDX is available at just about every sporting goods store in Reno, and I’m more than happy with it
Nothing illegal about selling/buying them except where prohibited by local laws. Winchester dropped them from production due to bad PR and political pressure.
Mmm I beg the different, what set the Black Talon apart from any ammo is the bullet jacket is thicker at the tip than at the base. You think they might have replaced or make better bullets but they simply just don't.
I carried the .357 Black Talon when they first hit the market, and for quite a while, thereafter. We never called them "cop killer", we called them "a Surgeons Nightmare". And, they did no better than any other round, through a windshield. Replaced, now by Hydra Shock. It was said ( back in the day ), that " a surgeon would have a Nightmare if you got shot right outside the OR".
Thank you, for the intelligent analysis and clarification. I bought these around 20 years ago, and still keep them loaded in my 9mm XD for home defense.
Back in the 1990s I tested and compared expansion of the Black Talons in .45 ACP (230 gr) and .357 Magnum (180 gr), vs the first replacement from Winchester, then called the SXT (the names Ranger and PDX came later). The Black Talons and SXT performed similarly but were not identical. The Black Talons had sharp claws. The SXT had rounded "fingernail" type tips. There were no significant differences between the black Lubalox coating and more conventional copper finish. Over time the Lubalox coating appearance remains the same while copper jackets quickly lose there lustre and show oxidizing. The Black Talons always came in nickel plated cases with red marks around the base, reportedly to protect the primers and cases against moisture and corrosion. Keep in mind this was an era when leather was still the primary material for holsters and pouches for magazines, speed loaders, Bianchi strips and loose ammo. SXT ammo, at first, came in nickeled brass cases, minus the red marks, so it's uncertain whether the primers were sealed. SXT was less expensive than Black Talons, although I purchased law enforcement surplus Black Talons at gun shows pretty cheaply because it was no longer carried by police. I still have one 20 round box of .357 Magnum 180 gr Black Talon and usually carry it in my Ruger SP-101. Recoil is stout but manageable. My hot handloads in 125 gr JHP kick harder and bark louder, but those were loaded for a S&W Model 586 with 6" Mag-na-ported barrel. A few folks mentioned the PMC Starfire. The 1990s Starfire were not identical to the Black Talons. The lead itself was segmented like a 5 point star, with a conventional copper jacket that just barely covered the forward edge of the exposed star segmented lead, and the jacket has tiny nicks in the leading edge to assist with expansion. I'm looking at one right now from my remaining stash. These also expanded well in test media, but did not have the distinctive claws of the Black Talons or "fingernails" of the SXT. I used a lot of Starfires in the 1990s because they were the least expensive jacketed hollow points we could buy in a reputable brand. I still carry those in .38 Special in my S&W Model 49 and 642 snubbies because they hit point of aim and group tighter than Golden Saber or Gold Dot for me. Unfortunately PMC discontinued the Starfire. I'm down to only 10 rounds of Starfire, which I keep in both my Model 49 and 642. As backups I keep Gold Dots in Bianchi strips. My only reservation about the older Golden Saber is the lack of a cannelure to ensure a solid roll crimp to prevent bullet creep under recoil. And the 125 gr Golden Sabers are quite long due to the deep cavity. I'd worry about bullet creep locking up the shorter cylinder in my older Model 49 Bodyguard. However I tested these in my Model 642 which has a longer cylinder comparable to a .357 Magnum cylinder. After four shots I examined the fifth and last round and saw no bullet creep, so either Remington loaded those correctly back in the 1990s, or I just got lucky. Regarding the publicity that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon, there was some talk about the name seeming racist. I was a journalist back then and paid close attention to the story. But the main incident that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon was mentioned in the video: the 1993 mass murder on the Long Island commuter train. You can find the details about the murderer via a Wikipedia link from the article about the Black Talon ammunition. In the public eye, that incident clinched the perceived racial connection to the name of the ammunition, however incorrect or ridiculous that may seem now in retrospect. Regarding the claims by surgeons that the Black Talon claws could injure medical personnel, that's not far fetched. In the military I was an operating room tech and assisted surgeons. They often used gloved fingers to carefully probe incisions or injuries, as well as to separate tissue layers without unnecessary cutting. So, yeah, it's a valid concern. However a few current hollow points still expand with sharp petals - notably the Norma MHP - and I haven't heard of any comparable criticisms.
I am pretty sure, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember Winchester making them by another “acronym” right after all the bad press hit. Winchester SBT, I struggle to remember but the 3 letters as I was told meant Same Black Talon just as you said no black coating. But was an inside joke at Winchester due to the fact it was exactly the same projectile with clear coating, and the bad press vanished.
Jimmy Berry I would guess that even edges of a hollow point that are not sharp would cause damage. Probably more like tearing than cutting. But isn't this all getting a bit philosophical?
After that mass-shooting at the San Fran law firm, the news media said black talons go through you lile a high-speed cookie cutter, ripping your internal organs to shreds.
Federal Premium makes a round called HST that is sold to LE only that peels back like a bananna with really sharp edges also. One of the major advantages to a hollow point compared to FMJ is when it opens up, it exerts more inital energy "knock down power" and doesn't penetrate as deep as a FMJ to reduce possibilities of collateral damage I.E bullet going through the target and hitting another person.
Thanks for the video friend of mine has a hog hunting business and curious to know would these be good round for personal protect from the hogs, the pdx1 of course. recently he had to kill a hog with 45acp target round and after 6 shots the hog wouldn't die. May have been to big of a hog or to small of a gun
Thanks for making this video, Tom. All I've ever heard was hype and rumors about this stuff. It's nice to hear some research into the story. A buddy of mine has a small stockpile of this stuff for collection purposes, too.
I have a mystery bag if 9mm jhp there are 10 115gr winchester rounds, they have those black bullets but have a standard color brass casing the only marking is WIN 9mm Luger. I don't know wtf they are. They don't appear to be the black talons cause they aren't nickel plated. Anyone have any idea wtf they might be?
+Gunrights101 The Brass-cased, black luballoy projectiles are (most likely) Winchester's Ranger SXT 9mm rounds. I have them in the 147 grain size--decent velocity & no overpenetration. But, my FAVORITE Ranger SXT is the 127 grain +P+, which has a nickel case and a copper jacketed bullet. All that I can say is that the 127 +P+ are INCREDIBLY devastating in ballistic gel without ANY overpenetration.
Talon refers to the shape of the bullet when it expands. It has little "talons" on the jacket that are sharp. You will pick your fingers if you pick them up off the ground to quickly or with goo much grip. They do look cool for sure when fired. They perform very well but not as well as some newer expanding jacketed hollow points. They're called ranger t's now I think and the coating is clear.
Do they still make MagSafe ammo? The inventor was a friend of mine, long since passed in a motorcycle accident. RIP Joe Zambone. That was some nasty ammo. One version was sold to law enforcement only, because it truly would defeat body armor. I still have a box of 9mm containing 15 rounds of each of the 3 different types of MagSafe ammo, given to me by Joe. He included 5 tracer rounds to fill the 50 round box. I asked what those were for. He said to put 2 rounds of MagSafe in the mag, then one tracer round then fill the mag with MagSafe. In a fight, if I saw that tracer round, it was time to reload or bug out.
Wow, thanks for the informative review. My dad has always carried Black Talons in his .357, and has always sworn by them. I remember when he first introduced me to the revolver, he told me several times all about the mysterious deadly properties of the Black Talon, and it became a source of curiosity and wonder to me at the age when I was first discovering my love of guns. I now carry PDX-1s, and have shot a few hogs with them. Nasty stuff, but the stigma is certainly overblown.
i have used the pdx1's in a .380 auto and they do expand but they sont have the hame sharpness or rapid expanding capabilities as the black talon. im assuming the black talon is NOT bonded yet the pdx1 is. similar results but not quite the same.
the weight and the blades between the petals (or dicks, as we call them) are what push it through anything softer than the round itself like a "saw blade". In other words, it doesn't just expand and leave a progressively expanding wound channel, it actually cuts everything in its way and survivability is greatly reduced. We fired rounds from a Sig P220 .45 and my Glock 20 into a t-bird windshield from 20yds.... mine penetrated the shield, seat, back seat, and the trunk. The .45's broke glass....
sweet, been waiting patiently for this and the doubletap vid. I really enjoy the vids you put out where your passing knowledge on the the viewer, by far my favorite type of vids.
I have a small stock pile of these I keep simply for their (historical?) Value as well as other odd rounds I have some aluminum hollow points that came from a state trooper friend of mine as well as a few other odd rounds for various calibers. Kind of just to say to my shooting buddies "hey ave you seen these" Not to shoot them check that's what cheap ammo is for it's just cool having some oddities. I did keep a mag full of Black Tallons on my duty belt when on the job though Ya never know
I have one box of 45s that I bought back in the 90s and never.fired. Now, I have fired Winchester Platinum Plus 260 grain 45 caliber bullets which were just sabot bullets not loaded in cartridges. I believe these bullets to be similar to black talons. I have found Platinum Plus bullets to be both accurate in my muzzleloaders and effective on deer.
They are still legal to buy and sell, not illegal. Winchester quit selling them on their own. They caved to media hype.
Actually they didn't stop selling them.They took the black coating off and changed the name to ranger and called it law enforcement ammo. They still sell it today although as time has gone on they have made some changes to it to improve it and keep up with newer technology. The hollow point is wider now they have made changes to the jacket etc etc but still retains slot from the original Black Talon.....but black talons are not illegal. They are just another hollow point bullet that had a name that freaked out liberals
I was under the assumption that congress did in fact ban them. I will have to do some more research. They dod however market them under another name. The ranger xst I believe.
@@mattdg1981 Black Talon was never banned, never illegal. Winchester VOLUNTARYILY pulled available stock from market.
Yep they are legal if you can find them
They can only be sold in private dealing
I remember it. It was at the time when the buzz word that the anti gunners using was "Cop killer bullets". It was after "Saturday night special and before "Assault rifle".
took the black coating off and called them Ranger Ts. I hope all theose reporters feel safer...
The Ranger SXTs and Black Talons are similar, but they're not the same.
Ranger Ammo is great stuff, Hard to find for a Civilian to purchase though, So I now carry the FED HST for my 1911 EDC round etc
Ranger T from .40 Glock drops deer before they’re out of sight
NO IT IS NOT A RANGER T... it is identical to the PMC star fire
Dont bother telling me im wrong. I know im 100% right. I have put the 2 cartridge side by side
@@goingtoscotland talon is the same as the PMC star fire
I still have around 10,000 rounds of 9mm Black Talon and yes it is strictly for self defense for myself, and my wife (38 Special). I really stocked up because I had 2 sons and a daughter who are now of age to use them in the Browning Hi Powers that I also stocked at the time of their births. I bought Ruger10/22 for $89 each, and Mini 14 for $289 each in stainless. I am glad I did because my whole family now enjoys shooting and they all carry except the daughter who is still in the 1st grade. I reload on a Dillon 550B and I have a Unimat Lathe to make parts with. The government will never get my guns without a fight.
So if cops came to your house you wouldn't give them to them? Ya right you'd be quick to give them up
+Lynn Kramer Don't tell everyone! Ha
Responding to Lynn Kramer: You are really scary and you'll raising children? You must have nightmares every night.
Yes I'll raised children. They are all NRA Lifetime members as well. I sleep very well, because unlike liberals, I have nothing and no one to fear. I don't threaten anyone, but I don't let anyone threaten me either. Be peaceful, and you can usually expect peace in return. Licensed gun carriers avoid altercations and are more aware than your usual yahoo yippee skippy hippy pothead out their in among the English.
You made your point.
@dantz34 Thank you, the best ammo is the Ranger series from Winchester. It is the exact same thing.
Yup Ranger T loaded in my XD 40.
Same eXact Thing.
Most of the people I see on youtube who own these have them purely as a collectors item. A DA would eat you alive if you used these.I personally like the PDX as it has great ballistics and is fairly easy to find(big+). In any case, carry a JHP that feeds reliably in your firearm. Bad guys aren't stopped by the best round, they are stopped by bullet placement and quick followup shots. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Anyway, great video as usual and thanks for the history lesson.
Thanks, I will do a follow up to this video, please subscribe
Please subscribe, we have a lot of fun on the channel!
I won't lie being young living in Baltimore these bullets were legends. when biggie smalls rapped about these bullets that's how the bad name circulated and became "cop killers"
...so i could rip through the ligaments
Yep. He mentioned Black Talons in his song Warning: "Bet you Biggie won't slip/I got the Calico with the Black Talons loaded in the clip/So I can rip through the ligaments/Put their bodies in the bad predicament/Where all the foul people went." I still have 3 boxes of .45 and 3 boxes of 9mm left from '92
...Put their bodies in the bad predicaments/Where all the foul people went/Touch my cheddar/Feel my Berretta... *Warning*
*BLACK TALONS THATLL KNOCK DOWN A SASQUATCH*
@Mrichards6151 I put a notation up, Ranger series is the exact same thing
NO ITS NOT!!! lol... PMC star fire and black talon is the exact same thing
Sorry, I do not sell ammo or guns:)
@ls1dragracer Thanks for the cool comment. Tom
@FaganRoberts Yes, you are correct. I simply always have my videos focused on DA's in the worst case scenario . Thnak you for your input. I appreciate it. Tom
Yes I still have some and i'm retired law enforcement and i'm going to keep on carrying them because we carried them on the job so that we didn't injure innocent by standers. They are a great round when used against the bad guys, end of story!!!
@Mr683465 The SXT is the "exact same thing" Thank you. Tom
Weapons Education or SameXactThing
Ranger T-Series are the same cartridge without the black coating. It’s tremendous ammo when it expands. Meanest rounds I’ve ever seen that still penetrate 12-18”. HST’s, Gold Dots & Bonded Golden Sabors will expand more reliably but none of them are as mean as Winchester’s Ranger T’s/Black Talons.
@TWOMBS76 The PDX1 is the exact same thing, yes they have "talons" They have huge "petals' that fan out & will give surgeons the same problems they did 20 years ago.
The talons on the black talon were sharper than on the brass talon because old black talon had (sharp) short claws. The brass talon had long (fingers) claws. @8:48 pause. look careful and you can tell difference between short claws on black bullet and long claws on brass bullet. Good thing, I got them a lot many years ago.
Thank you so much for not naming any mass murders. I truly believe that if we quit giving them 15min of fame mass shooting will dwindle to little or none
I will do a new video om this story, great point.
Agreed. So tired of the media portraying every murderer or school shooter as some "tortured poor soul". It's a chemical imbalance in the brain, not a Shakespeare play.
could not agree more. Everyone should not speak their names
+Tyler Newton I couldn't agree more. Anyone would think twice knowing their target was armed.
+ducatiluvr They are staged events.
Both PDX1 & Hornady will do the job! Please subscribe!
@nehctik1986 I'll clarify that in a second video. The bottom line is we have to be aware that the D.A will deem them as Cop Killers... (even though they are not) I like to tell my audience to be on the safe side...No need for extra legal stuff...
Thank you for the kind comment
Thanks for the comment
I will do a part two on the Black Talon, I will use everyone's input, Thanks
My grandfather is a retired highway patrolman and he has some of this ammo. I didn't know what it was at the time, but he told me exactly what you just said as far as the story behind the ammo was. Pretty funny that someone actually believed this was designed for a specific race.
Do chickens have large talons?
@prchico520 Thanks Anthony, Tom
Winchester uses Lubalox still, but they have used it on very few bullets. The caliber they use it most on in 22LR. I know they use it on 1 30-30, 1 308win, 1 9mm. They may have more but it really is not widely used. If it works as a coating to protect your barrel I would prefer it on all bullets I use.
I still remember buying a used Jericho 941 a few years ago from a friend. It included a full magazine of 9mm black tallons. I took the gun to show my father which is a 60 years old Vietnam vet. He liked the gun but literally freaked out when he seen the magazine of the black tallons. He told me they were illegal cop killer ammo and told me to get rid of it. Me being me instead went home and researched it. I then had to explain this story to him.
Huge respect...thank you for not using the psychos name...this needs to become a practice among everyone....tv news included.
I, too, am a huge fan of the "some asshole" rule. You know, instead of saying "Jack DeKiller committed that shooting" saying "Some asshole committed that shooting." Denies them the notoriety they crave.
@greygoosevodka1 Thanks, I had fun making this one... Tom!
@kinggodzilla87 Exactly, The ranger SXT is identical
They are still legal the Winchester "T" series is the black talon round without the black coating. Winchester volunteered to take it off the shelf but you can still buy it any day of the week.
I would like to know your opinion for extreme shock ammo and glaser safety slugs.
I have about 4 20 round boxes of 147 grain +p black talons for my 38 special and they tend to blast things all to crap
@lamarama1 Great comment, Thank you
Winchester never stopped making them. They made them before. They made them after and you can still buy them now. They are the silver tip handgun ammo. Anodizing them black was a marketing scheme. After a law suit or two the stopped coating them and kept right on making them uncoated. You can buy them in Surer X as well as the Lawman and Ranger packaging. Were did I get my story? The head mill wright at the Alton ammo plant in Alton ILL.
at a gun store i was in one day, they were selling these things for about $80 a box
@RedDawnAK74 I would love to do ballistic videos. In south FL there is no room to shoot out doors privately. I'll check the website. Thanks Tom
I just purchased 2000 rounds of Winchester Ranger series. I feel good knowing I have them.
@VinnyS914 I can't believe every State does not allow there residents to protect themselves. This is why I am going to try to make a difference. Someone has to do it. THX Tom
I did not believe it at first, but the black talon round was designed to cut. The dry lubricant coating left residue in between the rifling, Even after excessive cleaning. and slowed the projectile between 100 to 300 feet per second depending on the caliber in question. Gun owners suspected that the dry lubricant residue could trap oxidizing agents in the gun barrel. Years later, it was found out that the Black Talon had the least stopping power of all hollow points.
Least stopping power of all hollow points ? ( BS !! ) ur smoking too much crack !
Are these rounds still available for sale somewhere? I'd love to have them.
You can buy them off the Gunbroker website and find them most of the time at gun & knife shows. You will pay a lot of money for black talon ammo! Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, and Winchester PDX-1 are just as good as Black Talon ammo.
ed911detroit Actually, the HST, PDX-1 and Ranger-T are better, they all use bonding technology. Also, Black Talons fragment to much, when they hit windshields or sheet-metal and not delivery effective stopping power, that a bonded round would.
@skywalkermix Thank you, Tom
the fly popped in and left when you said bye,,, funny.
what part of LI are you from. I thought I detected an East Meadow accent.
An informative and well presented video. My story about the Black Talon starts around 1991/92 at the Long Beach CA Police Range. I walked into the store there and a bunch of guys was standing around looking a some photographs of lumps of what looked like amber jello, later I learned it was ballistic gel. Anyway the fellow who was making a presentation was pointing out the different types of penetration and damage that different rounds had made. I can only say that the damage made by the Black Talons a compared to other rounds was impressive. At the time I was carrying a very small .380 and the Black Talon .380 showed more damage to the ballistic gel then any of the then current ammo. I of course immediately purchased a half dozen boxes. And carried them for many years never firing a single round. I didn't practice with them as they were pricey in comparison to anything else. I still have those 6 boxes and since I see that one box is missing a few I guess I must have shot a few but have no recollection of the result. Subsequently I bought boxes of them in other calibers and likewise never shot any of them. I quit carrying them some few years later a I had moved on from the .380. I guess I have about 25 boxes of them packed away in an ammo box and unless there is a zombie apocalypse I'll end up bequeathing them to someone in my will.
Bequeath them unto me good sir.. Hahaha
I still have my Black Talons, I purchased them because of demo that was given to my department back in the day. The black talon is a hollow-point round and has the desired characteristics of a HP round as with all HP rounds it doesn't deflect as when it first hits it flowers which in turn causes a large vacuum and increased lethality, what was unique with the black talon was the "talon" which gave these cutting points on the round that aloud an even larger vacuum and some added penetration.
If I defended myself with Winchester Ranger T-series (147g 9mm) would that be against the law? I ask because I'm buying a used XDS-9 (with stainless slide :) and he's adding 100 rounds of it for $25 more. I live in Kansas if that helps.
If I said there is a law against them, I made a mistake, sorry. The DA would eat you up in court is what I should have said. Thank you.
**NOTE If you are wanting the "Talon" effect from the Winchester Ranger, you need the T-Series. The only way to tell is the product code ie. RA40T is code for 180 gr 40 cal. RA40TA is 165 gr 40 cal. RA380T, RA9T, RA45T. See your getting it. All other Rangers are bonded to the petals so you don't get sharp petals (Talons). Also the box may say Law Enforcement ammunition but anyone can own it. Some dealers only sell it to LE members but some sell to regular costumers too. Got mine at SGammo.com
These are the only hollow points I'd load up since they're 230 Grain +P. I like standard lead hollow points made of hard cast lead. It's a simple projectile and it'll mushroom out into a giant wadcutter. If it doesn't expand, you get a well penetrating round because it's hard cast.
Is there any clue to whether or not civilians can own Winchester Ranger T-Series
I have a box of these I bought in the 90s. I was curious if it was all hype and if BT is even effective
The talons on the black talon were sharper than anything they've put out since then. HOWEVER, in a study, they found that the black talon was actually weaker than anything of it's time. It has way less energy than modern ammo, and the only reason you should buy it is if you got somebody who really wants it and you can get it online and then turn around and rip them off for more money lol
Thanks. You wouldn't use any 180 grain load?
Very informative. My .45 ACP carry load is a Ranger T-series and my .40 load is a Winchester Bonded JHP (white, birth-control looking box; quite surprised I didn't find an NSN on it). I've always been a fan of the Winchester Ranger line of ammo. I think your assessment is spot on.
Greetings Tom, Have you ever heard of the machine gun shoot at Knob Creek gun range just outside of Louisville, Ky. ?
what are your rounds of choice for 9mm and 45acp for defense? God bless you, al
Double Tap
My EDC is a Sig Sauer P320 compact running PDX-1 9mm +p ammunition. I had no idea about black talon, but I know a lot about ranger t ammo and it’s hard to find. PDX is available at just about every sporting goods store in Reno, and I’m more than happy with it
What full sized Glock ( models 17, 20, 21, 22) should I get for home defence?
Nothing illegal about selling/buying them except where prohibited by local laws. Winchester dropped them from production due to bad PR and political pressure.
What good is ammo if it can't pierce armor.
Mmm I beg the different, what set the Black Talon apart from any ammo is the bullet jacket is thicker at the tip than at the base. You think they might have replaced or make better bullets but they simply just don't.
I carried the .357 Black Talon when they first hit the market, and for quite a while, thereafter. We never called them "cop killer", we called them "a Surgeons Nightmare". And, they did no better than any other round, through a windshield. Replaced, now by Hydra Shock.
It was said ( back in the day ), that " a surgeon would have a Nightmare if you got shot right outside the OR".
Thank you, for the intelligent analysis and clarification. I bought these around 20 years ago, and still keep them loaded in my 9mm XD for home defense.
Thank you for the kind comment.
I have 3 boxes in 9mm. 147gr sxt. If I were to sell them any idea how much I could get?
I was just given a box by a friend, do you think they can still be trusted for home defense after all these years???
Yes
Back in the 1990s I tested and compared expansion of the Black Talons in .45 ACP (230 gr) and .357 Magnum (180 gr), vs the first replacement from Winchester, then called the SXT (the names Ranger and PDX came later).
The Black Talons and SXT performed similarly but were not identical. The Black Talons had sharp claws. The SXT had rounded "fingernail" type tips.
There were no significant differences between the black Lubalox coating and more conventional copper finish. Over time the Lubalox coating appearance remains the same while copper jackets quickly lose there lustre and show oxidizing.
The Black Talons always came in nickel plated cases with red marks around the base, reportedly to protect the primers and cases against moisture and corrosion. Keep in mind this was an era when leather was still the primary material for holsters and pouches for magazines, speed loaders, Bianchi strips and loose ammo.
SXT ammo, at first, came in nickeled brass cases, minus the red marks, so it's uncertain whether the primers were sealed. SXT was less expensive than Black Talons, although I purchased law enforcement surplus Black Talons at gun shows pretty cheaply because it was no longer carried by police.
I still have one 20 round box of .357 Magnum 180 gr Black Talon and usually carry it in my Ruger SP-101. Recoil is stout but manageable. My hot handloads in 125 gr JHP kick harder and bark louder, but those were loaded for a S&W Model 586 with 6" Mag-na-ported barrel.
A few folks mentioned the PMC Starfire. The 1990s Starfire were not identical to the Black Talons. The lead itself was segmented like a 5 point star, with a conventional copper jacket that just barely covered the forward edge of the exposed star segmented lead, and the jacket has tiny nicks in the leading edge to assist with expansion. I'm looking at one right now from my remaining stash. These also expanded well in test media, but did not have the distinctive claws of the Black Talons or "fingernails" of the SXT.
I used a lot of Starfires in the 1990s because they were the least expensive jacketed hollow points we could buy in a reputable brand. I still carry those in .38 Special in my S&W Model 49 and 642 snubbies because they hit point of aim and group tighter than Golden Saber or Gold Dot for me.
Unfortunately PMC discontinued the Starfire. I'm down to only 10 rounds of Starfire, which I keep in both my Model 49 and 642. As backups I keep Gold Dots in Bianchi strips.
My only reservation about the older Golden Saber is the lack of a cannelure to ensure a solid roll crimp to prevent bullet creep under recoil. And the 125 gr Golden Sabers are quite long due to the deep cavity. I'd worry about bullet creep locking up the shorter cylinder in my older Model 49 Bodyguard. However I tested these in my Model 642 which has a longer cylinder comparable to a .357 Magnum cylinder. After four shots I examined the fifth and last round and saw no bullet creep, so either Remington loaded those correctly back in the 1990s, or I just got lucky.
Regarding the publicity that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon, there was some talk about the name seeming racist. I was a journalist back then and paid close attention to the story. But the main incident that led to Winchester withdrawing the Black Talon was mentioned in the video: the 1993 mass murder on the Long Island commuter train. You can find the details about the murderer via a Wikipedia link from the article about the Black Talon ammunition. In the public eye, that incident clinched the perceived racial connection to the name of the ammunition, however incorrect or ridiculous that may seem now in retrospect.
Regarding the claims by surgeons that the Black Talon claws could injure medical personnel, that's not far fetched. In the military I was an operating room tech and assisted surgeons. They often used gloved fingers to carefully probe incisions or injuries, as well as to separate tissue layers without unnecessary cutting. So, yeah, it's a valid concern. However a few current hollow points still expand with sharp petals - notably the Norma MHP - and I haven't heard of any comparable criticisms.
@DrGonzo1911 The 10mm blows the .45 away...by far. Tom.
@rg3843 I advise that the Black Talon will hurt you in court... read between the lines
where are they illegal? i know they are no longer produced, but i'm not aware of them being illegal . at least in my state, tn .
I am pretty sure, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember Winchester making them by another “acronym” right after all the bad press hit. Winchester SBT, I struggle to remember but the 3 letters as I was told meant Same Black Talon just as you said no black coating. But was an inside joke at Winchester due to the fact it was exactly the same projectile with clear coating, and the bad press vanished.
So is point of having the sharp edges on the "petals" to enhance penetration for comparable expansion of the hollow point bullet?
to Douglas Gross: The answer to your question is yes.
Jimmy Berry
Actually, the answer is no! The "sharp" edges are simply the by product of bullet expansion, and are found on most hollow point bullets.
The bullet expansion is for more upset. (damage) beyond entry. The sharp edges are by design.
If the answer was no, there would be NO reason to even have the hollow point!
Jimmy Berry
I would guess that even edges of a hollow point that are not sharp would cause damage. Probably more like tearing than cutting.
But isn't this all getting a bit philosophical?
After that mass-shooting at the San Fran law firm, the news media said black talons go through you lile a high-speed cookie cutter, ripping your internal organs to shreds.
Can you still buy these?
I wanna find some
Federal Premium makes a round called HST that is sold to LE only that peels back like a bananna with really sharp edges also. One of the major advantages to a hollow point compared to FMJ is when it opens up, it exerts more inital energy "knock down power" and doesn't penetrate as deep as a FMJ to reduce possibilities of collateral damage I.E bullet going through the target and hitting another person.
Thanks for the video friend of mine has a hog hunting business and curious to know would these be good round for personal protect from the hogs, the pdx1 of course. recently he had to kill a hog with 45acp target round and after 6 shots the hog wouldn't die. May have been to big of a hog or to small of a gun
Thanks for making this video, Tom. All I've ever heard was hype and rumors about this stuff. It's nice to hear some research into the story. A buddy of mine has a small stockpile of this stuff for collection purposes, too.
I have a mystery bag if 9mm jhp there are 10 115gr winchester rounds, they have those black bullets but have a standard color brass casing the only marking is WIN 9mm Luger. I don't know wtf they are. They don't appear to be the black talons cause they aren't nickel plated. Anyone have any idea wtf they might be?
Some one years ago said they came from bass pro as like an exclusive product, but I can't find any info
+Gunrights101 The Brass-cased, black luballoy projectiles are (most likely) Winchester's Ranger SXT 9mm rounds. I have them in the 147 grain size--decent velocity & no overpenetration. But, my FAVORITE Ranger SXT is the 127 grain +P+, which has a nickel case and a copper jacketed bullet. All that I can say is that the 127 +P+ are INCREDIBLY devastating in ballistic gel without ANY overpenetration.
@weaponseducation I thought you said they couldnt legally be sold?
@empxd40 You can carry them, but I advise not to because a DA will make you out to be a monster...
Talon refers to the shape of the bullet when it expands. It has little "talons" on the jacket that are sharp. You will pick your fingers if you pick them up off the ground to quickly or with goo much grip. They do look cool for sure when fired. They perform very well but not as well as some newer expanding jacketed hollow points. They're called ranger t's now I think and the coating is clear.
@schmidtycooler Maybe a channel update or a different concealment video. I may load my self up with 20 plus weapons, that will be fun!!!
Do they still make MagSafe ammo? The inventor was a friend of mine, long since passed in a motorcycle accident. RIP Joe Zambone. That was some nasty ammo. One version was sold to law enforcement only, because it truly would defeat body armor. I still have a box of 9mm containing 15 rounds of each of the 3 different types of MagSafe ammo, given to me by Joe. He included 5 tracer rounds to fill the 50 round box. I asked what those were for. He said to put 2 rounds of MagSafe in the mag, then one tracer round then fill the mag with MagSafe. In a fight, if I saw that tracer round, it was time to reload or bug out.
Wow, thanks for the informative review. My dad has always carried Black Talons in his .357, and has always sworn by them. I remember when he first introduced me to the revolver, he told me several times all about the mysterious deadly properties of the Black Talon, and it became a source of curiosity and wonder to me at the age when I was first discovering my love of guns. I now carry PDX-1s, and have shot a few hogs with them. Nasty stuff, but the stigma is certainly overblown.
I have black talons when my father used to do secret service and he died so they went to me.
i have used the pdx1's in a .380 auto and they do expand but they sont have the hame sharpness or rapid expanding capabilities as the black talon. im assuming the black talon is NOT bonded yet the pdx1 is. similar results but not quite the same.
the weight and the blades between the petals (or dicks, as we call them) are what push it through anything softer than the round itself like a "saw blade". In other words, it doesn't just expand and leave a progressively expanding wound channel, it actually cuts everything in its way and survivability is greatly reduced. We fired rounds from a Sig P220 .45 and my Glock 20 into a t-bird windshield from 20yds.... mine penetrated the shield, seat, back seat, and the trunk. The .45's broke glass....
I know, but are those Teflon coated?
sweet, been waiting patiently for this and the doubletap vid. I really enjoy the vids you put out where your passing knowledge on the the viewer, by far my favorite type of vids.
Is there a hollow point load you recommend for a Glock 23?
@lamarama1 Exactly, great comment
I have 1 question, are they banned in the state of Virginia.
NO
that's all i needed to know. thanks.
Wtf... No they're not lol
One more fact: the black talon is not similar to the ranger T. It is actually identical in design to the PMC star fire
I have a small stock pile of these I keep simply for their (historical?) Value as well as other odd rounds I have some aluminum hollow points that came from a state trooper friend of mine as well as a few other odd rounds for various calibers. Kind of just to say to my shooting buddies "hey ave you seen these" Not to shoot them check that's what cheap ammo is for it's just cool having some oddities. I did keep a mag full of Black Tallons on my duty belt when on the job though
Ya never know
I have one box of 45s that I bought back in the 90s and never.fired. Now, I have fired Winchester Platinum Plus 260 grain 45 caliber bullets which were just sabot bullets not loaded in cartridges. I believe these bullets to be similar to black talons. I have found Platinum Plus bullets to be both accurate in my muzzleloaders and effective on deer.
@YankeeVigz Thank God you were on a different train. I'm glad you are still with us. Tom
Are the black talons teflon coated?
I use the makers t Rex witch is a solid copper round that looks like a hillocopter blade when it opens up. It's the only round I carry.