Doctor Who Changes EVERYTHING...and nothing! | The Giggle Review Discussion
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- "What was Russell thinking, what the hell is going on" - Chameleon Circuit.
Doctor Who and The Giggle have massive lore and canon changing consequenses but what does it all mean and does what it means even matter? We discuss this in our review of the latest Doctor Who episode.
It used to be "Just this once everybody lives" but now it seems no Doctor has ever died...
The Bi-regeneration was terrible and spoils the impact of the Doctor having to let go and accept change. RTD has ruined it.
Moffat has ruined it…. Chipnail has ruined it…. RTD has ruined it…. 😂😂😂
This show was ruined a long time ago. To be brutally honest it's been on a downward trajectory since City of Death.
"Ruined" is a strong word. Yeah too much Fantasy or rather 'Hand Of God' Screenwriting where they can just change anything.
It’s great and it’s sad people aren’t willing to accept cool new ideas.
@@dcsoda1 Cool? It undermines the impact of regeneration. So now the Doctor can just pop out a body and he doesn’t have to change losing all the impact of having to come to terms with moving on from his own self.
Great Discussion! I just found you when the specials started and I love your take on the series. Critiquing what you didn't like without shitting all over things just for the sake of it. Keep up the great work and I'm already existed for your christmas special discussion :)
Same
the bigeneration overshadows the concept of regeneration as a whole as it has made Tennant the definitive face of the doctor in my view
I think the RTD should have held fire on Donna being re-awoken until the regeneration. It would have been fun people going out of their way to convince Donna the Meep and an alien ship wern’t anything supernatural.
That way you can say there’s two loads of regeneration energy (one from 14th and the other from Donna’s meta-crisis) going into one doctor that makes two. It’s not perfect but better than what they made in the official Dr Who show.
Then keep the one Tardis and put the 14th in some spin-off show with Unit as a call back to older episodes where the Doctor was stuck on Earth with Unit.
The Bigeneration would’ve worked if they explained that 14 is now unable to regenerate. In the bigen, it split the Doctor creating the 15th whilst leaving the 14th who will naturally age and die. This, and not giving 14 a copy and paste Tardis, would’ve been the bitter sweet ending. 14 and Tennent’s Doc is able to rest and have a family but has to say by to the Tardis and immortality.
Thing is, we already had a Tennant clone that could grow old and die of age. We didn't need another.
The greatest self love, men's mental health, mental health, therapy scene I've seen in a fantasy show so intimately and affectionately written directed and performed ....asexual reproduction is underrated too
My main problem with the story is that they still refuse to give any explanation as to why the 14th doctor looks like the Tenth. And the lame reason of settling down and having a family was never brought up by the 10th doctor just that he had one-and it was never mentioned again. And I fail to see just what the anniversary part of all this is.
I agree it’s sloppy writing and just a weak reason for wanting Tennant to come back. The Doctor always wanted to get away from mediocrity and escape the boredom of Gallifrey so this plot line makes no sense at all.
I have no idea why this is such a sticking point.
They're relaunching the whole thing after a ratings drought and wanted loads of new in roads into spin-offs, movies and more.
Tennant was neccessary because the show lost all good will but Tennant is popular as ever. Ncuti just taking over like normal would leave the show in the same anaemic state regardless of his performance. Keeping the insanely popular actor in the back pocket for later is brilliant, and not exactly new territory.
Bigeneration is no more of a logical joke than regeneration. It was just a conceit to change main actors and keep the show alive. it is JUST as destructive to continuity as regeneration was AND just as rich with cool new potential.
13 lives: in the bin. Show easily accomodates.
half human: in the bin. No problems.
Wax Tom Baker: TRUE bollocks, no harm done.
War Doctor: Partially cannibalised Eighth and Ninth Doctor's domain. RUINS the number order. Whatever, its a party.
Theres a planet's worth of TARDISes and an unknown number are still around, lost, wandering alone and being piloted by a number of people.
Clara is in a bloody TARDIS, that didn't even come close to affecting the show negatively. Or at all.
If they avoid low quality stories similar to recent seasons, WHO will be fine.
Couldn't say it better myself
Here is a thought. David's Doctor is the future Curator. By the way it wasn't until 1981 that the 5th Doctor experienced the first Post-Regeneraation syndrome. Also this felt more like a one off bi-regen but who knows. It just means it happens now.
Technically there are 3 existing tardises in one universe. 14ths original tardis, 15s tardis, and the 14 that changed into Ncuti that got sent back into time to interact with the 14th. His tardis is still out there.
I just saw #3. I have very mixed feelings and been left feeling that I've been fed and forced to eat something that I really really hate, The show made so little sense and people were introduced that I do not relate with at all. Honestly this regeneration really sucks and the new black doctor actor with the unpronouncible name comes across as arrogant and superior to anyone AND I bet he's gay as f&u@k also! No pants... or shirts and gaudy african neck things... seriously? The woke sheit was forced on in hughe gobs regardless of what the fans want with the crippled lady in the rocket firing wheelchair walking and all... mega cluster brain farts with LSD sprinkled on it. I think Davies is out for blood and a mega vendetta on the Dr Who fans out of sheer spite. The guy is dangerous. Two doctors will simply not work at all on so many levels and Davies will come down as the most hated person associated with Dr Who ever. I've not been won at all and as far as I can care the Show is done with this Davies guy at the helm. I seriously doubt the show can be saved given the present direction. There is a competion between him and Katheen Kennedy as to how far will they go before its all gone... sad really.
I'm very ok with Ncuti so far... he hasn't sold me 100% yet, but I'm more so bothered by the idea of the Doctor retiring. I can accept the Curator since that's not the "current" Doctor; he seems like a far off future version that has basically "done" everything he could to save the universe, and it would no longer ever be in peril again by the time the Doctor becomes the Curator (a far flung, unrealistic fantasy scenario, but not too crazy for the Doctor Who Universe, I feel). To have Fourteennant "retire" is something I'm really mixed on. And the concept of bi-generation leaves us with a trillion more questions now.
For one, in the previous episode they mentioned conservation of mass, so does this mean that 14 and 15 in those moments weight like 90 pounds each? (Sorry, I'm American, idk what kilograms are.) It's not quite like the Watcher merging with the 4th Doctor to regenerate, since the Watcher is essentially a ghost and we don't know if he has the same physical properties to possess mass in the same way, so I doubt he doubled the Doctor's mass in that instance, only to relinquish it to undergo that mitosis in this episode. I don't think I like that whole bit. 2 TARDISes makes it feel much more fan-fiction-y. Reminds me of when Clara and Ashildr got their own TARDIS. Super weird, feels a tad forced. Plus, we already had a Tennant clone in a other world we could've found a way to visit, especially now that the Time Lords are "back." The other worlds aren't sealed off by rule anymore.
The more I ramble, the more these 60th Anniversary specials feel like a complete mess of storytelling, continuity and worldbuilding.
@@James.B.Russell At this point I think I'll skip these horrible years of the black doctor like I did with the woman insufferable doctor shows. Dr Who is done for... RIP.
@WhiteDragon689 For me it's dependent on if Ncuti has that "thousand lightyear stare." Jodie didn't. She didn't have that command presence. She was just annoying and wrong most of the time. Ncuti, so far, doesn't seem bad. Has kind of a Matt Smith vibe. But I need to see if he really does seem over 2000 years old. If not, then he's not the Doctor.
@@James.B.Russell Remember he's an actor and Davies seems to be the God of that Universe. It could be made to work with the right Doctor scripts. What concerns me is that this black doctor will be just black and not the doctor just to push a political agenda. The Doctor's agenda is pacifism. Time will tell if the show will survive this or not.
Having 10th Doctor come back as 14th because he felt impelled to resolve Donna crisis was strong enough. But then move on to 15th and don't leave Tennant lamely sitting in a back garden.
What I think happened is RTD watched the Troughton era for what little of the Toymaker still exists, but has been far more influenced by 'The Robber' and the Land of Fiction. That has characters popping in and out of existence, real people replaced by fictional versions and you can even fictionalize yourself, if you try to edit your own narrative.
But at the end of the day I think it's just lazy writing.
Man, I quite like the Mind Robber
@@James.B.Russell Yes, it's among my favourites, having watched it when first broadcast. That huge white space outside the TARDIS is the emptied BLUE PETER studio!
Bang on! Agree with you totally. RTD borrows a lot from other sources.
@alanbeaumont4848 That's really cool. I'm 28 so I saw it sometime within the last 10 years since I first got into Doctor Who as an American, haha.
Yeah, saying Gatwa's doctor is older confused me too! Maybe it's because 14 was also 10?
So the first Black Doctor doesn't even get to be "the" Doctor, but only one of two.
I was wondering about that...
Some of the greatest psychological thriller manga ever have to do with playing games and having to find ways to bend the rules into your favor within incredibly high stakes for if you lose going from death to being in extreme debt for life.
Interesting point of information. I wondered if 'GRADES GENTS HAIRDRESSERS' next to the 'MR EMPORIUM' toy shop at 19:18 in the episode was a dig at Michael Grade, who cancelled classic WHO. So I Googled them and the scene is shot in Broad Street Bristol, where you will indeed find GRADES, but no toy shop. It's a Creperie... ironic, really.
Great discussion guy's ,great points, i have no idea what the ending to this episode the giggle was all about 😒🙄
My interpretation is based off that “we’re doing therapy out of order” line where eventually 14 will work on himself so that he’s better when he does regenerate into 15. Then when he regenerates 15 will be pulled back to the bigeneration. Basically a timey wimey way to settle the angst from the past few decades to give the new season more of a fresh start.
So 15's regeneration will be kinda like 4's with the Watcher merging with him?
This is what we hope is happening. And kinda thought it was until the commentary from RTD. But unless it's in the show it isn't canon imo.
If it's just 14 fades off once he's healed to timeywimey birth 15 earlier than I am more than okay with Bi-generation.
Or they'll just never mention it ever again haha!
-Dan
This is my loose interpretation as well. I was pretty stunned right after watching the bigeneration scene. Ncuti was so good as the Doctor in the brief time he’s on screen that I’m willing to see what Russell does with this.
Didn't Doctor 13 chill out with River Song at the Crystal Tower Thing for 80 years? So why the tiredness?
Thing is... Having two people with human being strength "pull" the new doctors apart... Really??
Bi-Generation should’ve been just a pure he split into two beings with Ncuti being the doctor but David eventually becoming the Valeyard
Why didn't RTD simply make David Tennant's doctor mortal without a Tardis after regenerating & Allow him to retire on earth. This scenario is very messy & confusing
Many will have loved this episode but will they like what will be forthcoming now that lore continues to be dramatcially changed. Binge watchers will be happy with all the spinoffs they'll never have to leave home. The whole Dr 10 living a normal life on earth is a huge cop out. It injust to Matt and Peter etc...especially when Matt wanted to come back.
Rtd is clearly set on the idea of building the “whoniverse”, and he seems to think the comicbook, multiverse way is the way to go. So he just went ahead and cook up a new setting to do that, except he’s not quite sure how it will go, so instead of owning the responsibility and explain the whole thing, he “urged” people to watch a commentary where he jokingly throws out a lore bomb
I'd like to see ty tennant or harry melling play next doctor who because they are grandchildren of peter davison and Patrick troughton?
The XMAS SPECIAL is supposed to have Multiple Doctors so maybe everything will be resolved and NShooty can fly off as the 1 and only Doctor. Plz.
basically why’d they have to fuck the next doctor after putting so much pressure. They’re trying to set him up but we’ll have to see how things play out
It's basically the Metacrisis Doctor all over again. Like he needs to give each of "his" companions their very own Tennant - except Martha. She just gets Mickey.
It's cheesy as hell, and hopefully the show moves on without 14 stealing Ncuti's thunder. So help me if 14 gets used as a Deus ex Machina to save 15, RTD can fuck all the way off.
I wasn't too keen on the first special. The second was good but it was a little too long. But I loved The Giggle.
I'd actually prefer if the doctor's stay split and each regenerate into their own new future incarnations, each changing over time in different ways
Nah~ Way too messy! We already have thousands of past Doctors because of the Timeless Child reboot and then we get even more splits and spin offs?
That is diluting the magic way too much and people would lose interest. There isn’t much interest from the normies left anyways according to the ratings.
Get rid of show runners, go back to producers and directors for more variety!
Kids. Only follow "new Who." Forget 30 years and hundreds of novels during the dark years. Think they can write this show.
I think the doctor has literally gone split personality and when 15 doctor ends so will the 14 th..... Or 15 will branch off to become the Vallyard
I think the production team are considering a potential new audience who will be watching for the first time and so have made the same decision which they made with Eccleston: Have the Doctor fully established as himself from the word go, and not stumbling about in a state of confusion. Long-term fans such as myself might miss the usual patterns of a new Doctor, but I can see why it's a good decision for the general audience.
Guys, we *know* that the Doctor retires and becomes The Curator ... (another one of the "old favorites"). But the confusion here is misplaced. There are *always* multiple doctors: The Two Doctors, the Five Doctors, etc. Its fiction and its time travel: of course it isn't logical. But it makes some sort of sense.
Exactly. It never ceases to amaze me how no matter what they do on this show a certain segment of people is determined to hate it. The general attitude is "it did not happen how I wanted it to OR I don't agree with what they did (and hardly ever do) so it sucks." It's tiring to me which is why I basically stopped frequenting the comments because all I see for most part is negativity and hatred. I want to live in a positive word, so I refuse to hang around negative people.
It being fiction doesn't mean free reign to do anything and everything. Only if it makes sense with that fiction's internal logic, and makes for good storytelling.
Be quite interesting if Tennant's Doctor can no longer regenerate and eventually does age and eventually have to accept death in a final story years down the line. But I doubt they've thought that far ahead. Have a feeling Gatwa's Doctor will know exactly who he is right from the get go and be unwaveringly confident in everything he does - and it will prove very, very unlikeable and annoying. He seems far too at ease with everything that's so recently happened to him - threat of the toymaker's legions, first "bi-generation" and not to mention all the unfortunate canon sabotaging nonsense with the timeless children that 14 was still so troubled about. But apparently he just goes straight out to a club to dance in a skirt. I'm getting big Mary Sue/Gary Stu vibes - he does after all, as both actor and character, possess a lot of the characteristics that are deemed to be most favorable in this day and age. Certainly by the current creative team.
You haven’t watched any Dr. Who before this one have you.
@@dcsoda1 all new Who. A lot of old stuff and a lot of Big Finish. I understand the lore very well. And listening to Russell T Davies in recent interviews (and knowing Disney) there is no longer respect for the lore and only a desire to use the existing popularity of an IP and turn into a vessel for their own political and social ideologies.
@@sean2520 mmmk bud. May want to give it another go around. “Understand the lore” lmfao.
@@dcsoda1 ok well enjoy drinking the kool aid from RTD's saggy teet I guess. I'm sure watching shooty and the trans companion travelling through time and space correcting everyone's pronouns will turn out to be really fun and exciting
The gold tooth of the master and 14 will merge into the Valeyard.
So as someone who really loved the idea around the timeless child I have to say, this actually does what fans complained about back then which is retroactively ruining the doctor so let me explain (but first let me preface I do not hate RTD or Tennant, I just think their return is a big negative for the show)
At it's core the timeless child did not actually change anything about the doctor in a way which affects the show's history all it did was add on to the doctors history prior to being the doctor we know, that's fine all wrapped away in a place that doesn't actually change the show outside of maybe having more worlds to explore. (I won't be arguing this in any replies so don't bother, I know how this fandom can get in regards to Chibnalls era and would rather talk about the new)
Bigeneration however takes the concept of regeneration and completely flips it on it's head in a way I believe negatively affects the shows legacy
Now RTD loves to piss off bigots (I do too) so what does he do? doubles down on the timeless child, good we like this we know he's not going to ditch his friends era of the show and sweep it under a rug excellent
but what I believe he's done here is seen the silly complaints of "well this ruins the show and fucks with canon" and then decided well if I actually do that it would annoy them even more, which I admit is pretty funny but I also kinda don't like it too despite loving Chibnalls changes and additions, a big factor of doctor who's immense popularity is the fact it evolves and changes and lets go of the past (which RTD even references in the star beast) and yet we're returning to Tennant as the 14th doctor... okay weird and I'm iffy about it but it's only for a few episodes while Ncuti is shooting other big things so no big deal... we get to what is an amazing scene of Toymaker killing the doctor, are we going to see the new doctor save the day immediately after taking over? but suddenly... he splits? well now it's kind of hard to focus on THE DOCTOR because the face of RTDs original era is still about and kicking. I really don't like this because the doctor changing is a must, it defeats the idea of change in the show (and it's as RTD can't let the past go which is pretty ironic considering the star beast script)
We then go to the podcast and the commentary from RTD and then you find out this Bigeneration happened to all of the other doctors? so in that case what was even the point of everything? we now have every single doctor alive and running about which I really don't like it takes away from their time as the doctor and their journey and I feel it almost certainly takes away from Ncuti as he didn't really get to shine in his debut when Tennant is literally standing right there
I was looking forward to Ncuti's doctor and I still am but I'm really not looking forward to RTD at the helm if this "whoniverse" with multiple doctors sauntering about without regenerating is going to be something he pushes for to this extent
to those who begged for Tennant and RTD to return I need to ask, Are you genuinely happy with this outcome? a show about change and moving on from the past becoming a show that just can't let the past go?
That's just my opinion at the end of the day, so I hope this comment gets my feelings across in a way which sounds reasonable.
The Timeless Child turned a lovely mystery into a tale of a young alien girl child getting abducted by an evil step mom (Tecteun) from a portal and then experimented upon and killed numerous times by her new step mother until she steals the secrets of regeneration from her body and creates what becomes the Timelords while simultaneously wiping and resetting her step daughters mind through thousands of regenerations at least?
That’s a child abuse nightmare that destroys the history of the Timelords and makes it evil…
Plus it adds all those ridiculous numbers of regenerations that take away the specialness of every generations Doctor and makes the first Doctor played by William Hartnell into some ridiculous factory regeneration number!
That isn’t the Doctor that people wanted.
@@PaulusAlone it doesn't take away from Hartnell
And the timelords have been portrayed as evil more than good
Hope this helps!
@@Matthew-bm7xh - Nah~ It’s way too much of a shift towards evil Timelords built on child abuse?
THAT isn’t something you can just do to over 50 years of canon and backstory with 15 minutes of silent flashback in the Timeless Child.
The Timelords had dangerous and sometimes evil members in their race for sure, but they were more often an ambivalent force in the universe generally trying to keep the order in the timelines.
Now they are basically the worst kind of child abusing monsters and everyone is happy with that?
The dignified rebel of William Hartnell’s First Doctor is now just one of many traumatized Doctors… and Doctors who are child abuse victims with stolen memories who have suffers constant mind wipes and mind control?
It’s as bad as Luke Skywalker becoming a bad and bitter uncle who almost kills his nephew in his sleep because of bad premonitions.
The same Luke who still saw the goodness in the most evil Jedi betrayer that was his own father, decides to kill his nephew while sleeping ?
We all know that was way out of character and that Rian Johnson was not following George Lucas’s vision of Star Wars and we know here that Chris Chibnall simply wanted to stamp his own personal ideology (plus current BBC mandates) upon the backstory because that’s ALL these modern ‘progressive’ idiots can do is make an archetypal story about THEIR current era social fixations!
Amazons appalling Rings of Power reboot did exactly the same to JRR Tolkiens source material and you just cannot be allowed to butcher timeless and mythical origin stories with such shallow socio-political pap!
I agree with you about the bi-generation but for exactly the same reason. It was a desperate destroying of the lore of the Timelords that will create even more messy canonical problems going forward?
However, much like with RTD having the 15th Doctor take a magic mallet and smack the TARDIS into two, we are getting a new Doctor WHO that just pulls magic out of thin air (like that new sonic screwdriver) to cover the p*ss poor writing dig them out of self created holes!
It will only get worse now because the few rules we had with the Doctor have been thoughtlessly destroyed.
This is what is destroying Star Wars and Star Trek also.😭
@@PaulusAlone the thing is
The "abuse" from the timelords was so very long ago in canon that it kind of just doesn't matter
I'll defend timeless child until the end
RTD however? Worst choice to bring him back
If you want to complain about progressiveness the go right ahead
This comment thread however is not the place for that
So respectfully move on and complain elsewhere
I'm on your same page: loved the Timeless Child concept because perfectly linked both Classic and New Who together using pre-existing hints and narrative points about the Doctor being "more than just a Timelord", and at the same time it added an original take about it that also restored the mystery of the character (from one mystery about the First Doctor's childhood, we've now other two - their origins and the years spent under Division service - for a total of three).
Otherwise, that cannot be said about Davies's Bigeneration concept. It's just nonsensical, and totally pulled out of thin air without any sort of bigger implication attached to it.
Doctor Who is officially dead.