An atheist for most of my life, but I like listening to you, and all your interesting guests. The past two months the planets have been brilliant in the eastern sky; right outside my back door first thing every morning. What a gift! At 87, I'm ready to go; just a bunch of molecules that will return to nature. Best wishes, Tim.
That teaching (denial of self) is a part of most spiritual traditions. In yoga, the practice of savassana is a practice of dying to self. But it is in context with other aspects of living, ie: one part of being present to life, versus an ungrounded teaching of it (which I also experienced in church.) Maybe it haunts you because there's some truth there to uncover under the rubble of the imbalanced way you were taught it. Just a thought.
I’m realizing that the more fundamentalist/literal/strict a religion is the more brittle the construct, and the more trauma. I was a Mormon with very literal beliefs and so my construct was extremely brittle and when it broke it shattered beyond repair. I find myself jealous of those who were raised in liberal religious traditions where you weren’t expected to believe everything literally. I can see value in having a community that meets together to support and learn from each other. I can see value in challenging ourselves to be better at loving others, giving service to the downtrodden, practicing self-discipline and delayed self-gratification, passing on ethics and philosophy that seems to help us live in a more harmonious society together. I see value in studying ancient texts and finding meaning in the mythology. (Just because it isn’t literally true doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value, fables often teach profound truth!) I was no doubt damaged in ways by my upbringing and strict religious beliefs, but my life was also very enriched by so much of my experience. I find myself to be Agnostic now but I wonder if there will be negative consequences if all religion disappears. There is Religious trauma in strict fundamentalist religion but isn’t there also a lot of good that comes from more liberal/open minded, inclusive religious traditions? Where do Athiests take their children regularly where they have many adult mentors encouraging and helping their children practice loving and serving others, self improvement, teaching and encouraging an ethical life (something that is not intuitive to a teen). If we “burn it all down” what will come in to replace it? Will it be better than religion or something worse? What will fill the vacuum? I am in my 50’s with a very happy marriage, beautiful grandchildren being raised by parents who are ethical, contributing members of society. I KNOW I must credit our religious life for much of this……… What does the Athiest community offer to a dysfunctional family or single mother in an inner city neighborhood who is trying to keep her kids from stealing and ruining their life with drugs? While I no longer have a literal belief in god I see nothing that helps people transform their life and situation better than a religious community can. I wish there was a better program but in all my looking I can’t find it. Rather than trying to encourage everyone to reject Religion completely I wish we were more focused on ways to help religious organizations become more healthy……because in many ways they are accomplishing things the secular world can only dream about.
@16:00 ... so frustrating to try to talk to people you care about and share facts you've learned and have them be totally closed off. Also what really frustrated me is that people who knew me well (so I thought) and knew my zeal and education as a Christian wouldn't listen to me but would listen to people they barely or didn't even know. It was a blow to the relationship. I realized that they really didn't value my opinion or thoughts like I had thought. It showed me how shallow our relationships had been, at least from their side. I would have listened and talked had the roles been flipped. That realization was pretty painful.
I discovered it back then too! Fresh off the cart in the general bookstore where I worked. I'd been out of the "fold" almost ten years by then but I was so grateful, still struggling with unnamed trauma. Can't wait for the new edition and the new chapters.
@54:00.. yah... that surprise "masturbation is a sin" event with all the guys happened when I was at The Masters College. All these guy walked out all sullen ..and the girls asking..."what's up with all the guys?" Then my married friend asked what I thoughts and gave me a lecture on it and I asked him... "What did you do before you were married"? That shut him up a bit. And an earlier point you made is relatable. I was pretty proud that I remained a virgin until married... and looked down on those who hadn't. Yet, I did a little petting with one woman I was dating in my late 20's, but the guilt of that tore me up. Such a messed up mentality. I so wish I could have grown up with a more healthy, rational view of sex. Even after marriage, having sex (which was great) and then divorce then getting into other relationships that became sexual, lingering guilty feelings sometimes nagged at me. "Fornication". I'm pretty much over that now..but it lingered for many years.
In my case I was a devout and fundamentalist Catholic throughout my high school and college years and when my faith fell apart at age 24 I felt I had nothing left to live for or look forward to (especially because for the longest time I thought God wanted me to be a priest or monk) and I can see why it can be devastating for others, for some going to heaven is the only thing that really matters. So for me I’ve been both depressed and glad to be out during these past two years since leaving and I still have no idea who I am anymore or what to do with myself, maybe she’s right and maybe the whole “meaning” bit is one of the remaining things I’ve yet to deconstruct and despite everything that has happened my only regret is that I didn’t walk away at a younger age (just like most kids raised Catholic nowadays). Maybe I was addicted to certainty all these years and it’s what eventually led me out of Christianity but I’m still dealing with the withdrawal symptoms and that’s probably what made my deconversion so traumatic to the point of being suicidal at my worst, I’m just glad to be still here. I could relate to Tim on the afterlife bit as there’s a part of me that believes that maybe reincarnation is real but it’s probably wishful thinking. I’ll buy the book and maybe take it to my therapist to better explain why I really suspect I have RTS, I’m forever grateful to Dr. Marlene for all her work.
Oh my. I am in the same place that you were at your worst. I would have considered myself a trad Catholic, Latin mass and all. I have worried my way into an anxiety disorder and am currently medicating just to get sleep. I want to meditate and do energy work that would help but I’ve been triggered by other tradcats. I’m struggling so hard. Everything is falling apart. I bought into everything hook,line, and sinker. I wish I had never become a Christian. Good luck to you!
I have watched many of your videos and I like what you are doing. May I suggest to you to reach out to other atheist youtubers to help you promote your channel?
hi Dr winell I want to break free from Christianity but if a get a muscle ache or anything like this it pulls me back in out of fear. of dying and going to hell
According to the Bible, most people will go to hell and only a few find life. That’s in the words of the loving savior Jesus and he’s apparently okay with that.
Starting around 49:00, talking about sex.... Paul in the Bible thought that people should avoid sex, even in marriage. Perhaps he thought so because he believed the end was coming soon, and it wouldn't matter. But, most people are Christian or whatever religion they happen to be because that's what their parents taught them. Look at what happened to the "Shakers". They all died out because their leader told them not to have sex.
I got a lot about hell fire and i was often told byy adoptive mother that i was demon posessed as a thirteen year old living at her boyfriends house i remember one night i was screaming and crying at my grandmas lap cause i was afraid of demons which is what i literally said
Excellent video. "The truth unfolds". I suppose I should consider myself fortunate in coming from western Europe where the Christian religion is well on the way out (apart from Islam which appears to be on the increase). However, living in my current abode, viz., South Africa, I am surrounded by all manner of religions and Christian apologists, and all the dogmas mentioned in your video are constantly verbalised, i.e. "Jesus saves ...", "going to heaven, fear of hell", etc.
It's not a lecture. And it's not even the main intent. It's about responding and sharing his insights and stories too! It would be awkward and rude not to have input. And the amount was perfect for engagement. Read her book if you think she left anything out. Don't apologize Tim!
At thirtesn maybe younger i wss forced to watch passion of the christ and i always got a weird feeling like i had to go pee every time i watched it its sick
@@HarmonicAtheist Let me rewrite my original comment. The purpose, as I would see it, would be to engage in a conversation that is more middle ground. You appear to have very absolutist views on your faith position, which is very normal and expected for someone who has come out of the religious environment you have. I guess my work in hospice as a chaplain has allowed me to see a multitude of different angles on the matter of faith. I think it would be an interesting conversation. I would also welcome the inevitable pushback I would get from someone such as yourself. Anyway, the offer remains if you’re interested. Best wishes for your continued journey.
@@HarmonicAtheist I should add, I also see atheism as an important prophetic voice when it comes to religion. I think it’s very reasonable to protest and reject the gods people worship when it comes to injustice perpetuated in the name of religion (see Isaiah 1:13-17).
I think it would be interesting to hear from someone who believes but doesn't see the Bible as literal because it's so easy to debunk it when it's seen as literal. In other words, to hear how liberal/progressive Christians are able to reconcile their beliefs with what the Bible says. I think the Resurrection is the only event that no Christian can view metaphorically otherwise they wouldn't be Christian.
1:12:10-13 : Religion asks the huge questions that " only the religion can have an answer for " Very true. In debate class you are taught about certain modes of response or viewpoints that are " against the rules " and are not to be used during your debate. Such as the "straw man" argument, which is to make up something not referring to the debate at all and knocking it down with your response to your own made up idea. So therefore, religion is using the straw man argument all day long but its just " making them look spiritual" instead of having the actual spiritual life to offer someone. If there wasn't a bible, no chx or jew or muslim could even offer the ideas of " whats gods plan for you" whats the point of life, etc. People wouldn't even have the concept of " is there a god or not"
Come to find out my in family adoption might not have even been legal my mother gave me and my twin up to her aunt who already had four kids vause she was scared of cps taking us but i have nothing in common with my family and my adoptive mother spanked us but i think mostly me
They should do like a Spiritual Street Fighter e.g. The Christian God versus The King 👑 of the gods Zeus. 😜🤜🤛 Who will reign supreme over the Metaverse?!?!
@@msakat1 hi, when I wrote that I think I was specifically thinking about the therapeutic relationship between a therapist and their client. There is quite a bit on the internet about the relational nature of trauma and how relationships can be used to help heal trauma. This is a good TED talked I found by a psychologist I know ruclips.net/video/PTsPdMqVwBg/видео.html
The purpose of life is to live your life. That was incredibly profound! I really needed to hear that
An atheist for most of my life, but I like listening to you, and all your interesting guests.
The past two months the planets have been brilliant in the eastern sky; right outside my back door first thing every morning. What a gift! At 87, I'm ready to go; just a bunch of molecules that will return to nature.
Best wishes, Tim.
We were told to "die to the self" at a youth camp focused on the book of Philippians and it has haunted me ever since.
That teaching (denial of self) is a part of most spiritual traditions. In yoga, the practice of savassana is a practice of dying to self. But it is in context with other aspects of living, ie: one part of being present to life, versus an ungrounded teaching of it (which I also experienced in church.) Maybe it haunts you because there's some truth there to uncover under the rubble of the imbalanced way you were taught it. Just a thought.
Dr Winell is a gift to us recovering from Religious Trauma. Her wisdom needs to be shared. It’s mind blowing and revolutionary.
Wow, Dr Marlene is so interesting. Enjoyed the little she mentioned of evolutionary psychology. Thank you.
I bought 3 copies of this book for myself and my still-Christian family. Thanks for doing what you do!
Marlene Winell + Bart Ehrman + Nicole Sachs/John Sarno have helped me a lot. Thank you all.
Another great interview with another great guest. Really enjoy these.
I’m realizing that the more fundamentalist/literal/strict a religion is the more brittle the construct, and the more trauma.
I was a Mormon with very literal beliefs and so my construct was extremely brittle and when it broke it shattered beyond repair.
I find myself jealous of those who were raised in liberal religious traditions where you weren’t expected to believe everything literally. I can see value in having a community that meets together to support and learn from each other. I can see value in challenging ourselves to be better at loving others, giving service to the downtrodden, practicing self-discipline and delayed self-gratification, passing on ethics and philosophy that seems to help us live in a more harmonious society together. I see value in studying ancient texts and finding meaning in the mythology. (Just because it isn’t literally true doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value, fables often teach profound truth!)
I was no doubt damaged in ways by my upbringing and strict religious beliefs, but my life was also very enriched by so much of my experience. I find myself to be Agnostic now but I wonder if there will be negative consequences if all religion disappears. There is Religious trauma in strict fundamentalist religion but isn’t there also a lot of good that comes from more liberal/open minded, inclusive religious traditions? Where do Athiests take their children regularly where they have many adult mentors encouraging and helping their children practice loving and serving others, self improvement, teaching and encouraging an ethical life (something that is not intuitive to a teen). If we “burn it all down” what will come in to replace it? Will it be better than religion or something worse? What will fill the vacuum?
I am in my 50’s with a very happy marriage, beautiful grandchildren being raised by parents who are ethical, contributing members of society. I KNOW I must credit our religious life for much of this………
What does the Athiest community offer to a dysfunctional family or single mother in an inner city neighborhood who is trying to keep her kids from stealing and ruining their life with drugs? While I no longer have a literal belief in god I see nothing that helps people transform their life and situation better than a religious community can. I wish there was a better program but in all my looking I can’t find it.
Rather than trying to encourage everyone to reject Religion completely I wish we were more focused on ways to help religious organizations become more healthy……because in many ways they are accomplishing things the secular world can only dream about.
@16:00 ... so frustrating to try to talk to people you care about and share facts you've learned and have them be totally closed off. Also what really frustrated me is that people who knew me well (so I thought) and knew my zeal and education as a Christian wouldn't listen to me but would listen to people they barely or didn't even know. It was a blow to the relationship. I realized that they really didn't value my opinion or thoughts like I had thought. It showed me how shallow our relationships had been, at least from their side. I would have listened and talked had the roles been flipped. That realization was pretty painful.
Hadn’t seen this one before now, this is excellent resource and an amazing lady who has given back so much! Thank you 😅
This is so good!
I read "Leaving The Fold" in the 1990s while leaving and deprogramming myself from Alcoholics Anonymous.
I discovered it back then too! Fresh off the cart in the general bookstore where I worked. I'd been out of the "fold" almost ten years by then but I was so grateful, still struggling with unnamed trauma. Can't wait for the new edition and the new chapters.
@Rachel Fourie No not really. No one in AA gives two shits what you believe in.
Deprogramming from AA?
Really enjoyed this Tim
@1:07:00..... "addiction to certainty".... so true. The unknown / not knowing is horrifying
I love what Dr. Winell said about mystery and how were don't need to know everything.
Love, love love what you are doing.
Great discussion,
@54:00.. yah... that surprise "masturbation is a sin" event with all the guys happened when I was at The Masters College. All these guy walked out all sullen ..and the girls asking..."what's up with all the guys?" Then my married friend asked what I thoughts and gave me a lecture on it and I asked him... "What did you do before you were married"? That shut him up a bit. And an earlier point you made is relatable. I was pretty proud that I remained a virgin until married... and looked down on those who hadn't. Yet, I did a little petting with one woman I was dating in my late 20's, but the guilt of that tore me up. Such a messed up mentality. I so wish I could have grown up with a more healthy, rational view of sex. Even after marriage, having sex (which was great) and then divorce then getting into other relationships that became sexual, lingering guilty feelings sometimes nagged at me. "Fornication". I'm pretty much over that now..but it lingered for many years.
In my case I was a devout and fundamentalist Catholic throughout my high school and college years and when my faith fell apart at age 24 I felt I had nothing left to live for or look forward to (especially because for the longest time I thought God wanted me to be a priest or monk) and I can see why it can be devastating for others, for some going to heaven is the only thing that really matters.
So for me I’ve been both depressed and glad to be out during these past two years since leaving and I still have no idea who I am anymore or what to do with myself, maybe she’s right and maybe the whole “meaning” bit is one of the remaining things I’ve yet to deconstruct and despite everything that has happened my only regret is that I didn’t walk away at a younger age (just like most kids raised Catholic nowadays).
Maybe I was addicted to certainty all these years and it’s what eventually led me out of Christianity but I’m still dealing with the withdrawal symptoms and that’s probably what made my deconversion so traumatic to the point of being suicidal at my worst, I’m just glad to be still here. I could relate to Tim on the afterlife bit as there’s a part of me that believes that maybe reincarnation is real but it’s probably wishful thinking.
I’ll buy the book and maybe take it to my therapist to better explain why I really suspect I have RTS, I’m forever grateful to Dr. Marlene for all her work.
Oh my. I am in the same place that you were at your worst. I would have considered myself a trad Catholic, Latin mass and all. I have worried my way into an anxiety disorder and am currently medicating just to get sleep. I want to meditate and do energy work that would help but I’ve been triggered by other tradcats. I’m struggling so hard. Everything is falling apart. I bought into everything hook,line, and sinker. I wish I had never become a Christian. Good luck to you!
I have watched many of your videos and I like what you are doing. May I suggest to you to reach out to other atheist youtubers to help you promote your channel?
hi Dr winell I want to break free from Christianity but if a get a muscle ache or anything like this it pulls me back in out of fear. of dying and going to hell
According to the Bible, most people will go to hell and only a few find life. That’s in the words of the loving savior Jesus and he’s apparently okay with that.
👍👍 Thanks!
Starting around 49:00, talking about sex.... Paul in the Bible thought that people should avoid sex, even in marriage. Perhaps he thought so because he believed the end was coming soon, and it wouldn't matter. But, most people are Christian or whatever religion they happen to be because that's what their parents taught them. Look at what happened to the "Shakers". They all died out because their leader told them not to have sex.
Religion: "How can I get the money from your pocket into mine? Fawns
I got a lot about hell fire and i was often told byy adoptive mother that i was demon posessed as a thirteen year old living at her boyfriends house i remember one night i was screaming and crying at my grandmas lap cause i was afraid of demons which is what i literally said
My mother chalked my adolescence up to demon possession. How painful those memories are.
Excellent video. "The truth unfolds". I suppose I should consider myself fortunate in coming from western Europe where the Christian religion is well on the way out (apart from Islam which appears to be on the increase). However, living in my current abode, viz., South Africa, I am surrounded by all manner of religions and Christian apologists, and all the dogmas mentioned in your video are constantly verbalised, i.e. "Jesus saves ...", "going to heaven, fear of hell", etc.
It's caused religious ocd
I enjoyed the interview. Sometimes I wish you would let the interviewee talk more.😊
Thanks for that feedback ... this interview was quite a while ago, and over time I've leaned much heavier toward the interviewee talking more.
Read about the "Millerites"
My family had a lot of run ins with cps mostly with our relatives like my aunt who believes whole heartily in spanking
Wholeheartedly
I would have liked to hear Marlene talk a bit more. Seemed like Tim dominated the conversation....................
My apologies. I am learning, and will do better next time!
Don't like it, turn it off!
You talk too much. Let her speak.
@@HarmonicAtheist ✌️👍
It's not a lecture. And it's not even the main intent. It's about responding and sharing his insights and stories too! It would be awkward and rude not to have input. And the amount was perfect for engagement. Read her book if you think she left anything out. Don't apologize Tim!
At thirtesn maybe younger i wss forced to watch passion of the christ and i always got a weird feeling like i had to go pee every time i watched it its sick
My ex-wife bought Passion of Christ on DVD. It never even unwrapped it. I pitched it.
Are you interested in interviewing a Fundamentalist Christian, who left their faith and was an atheist for 20-years, before returning to their faith?
Hi, may I ask what you would see as the goal and endgame of such an interview, compared to my focus on helping people escape mythological worldviews?
@@HarmonicAtheist Let me rewrite my original comment. The purpose, as I would see it, would be to engage in a conversation that is more middle ground. You appear to have very absolutist views on your faith position, which is very normal and expected for someone who has come out of the religious environment you have. I guess my work in hospice as a chaplain has allowed me to see a multitude of different angles on the matter of faith. I think it would be an interesting conversation. I would also welcome the inevitable pushback I would get from someone such as yourself. Anyway, the offer remains if you’re interested. Best wishes for your continued journey.
@@HarmonicAtheist I should add, I also see atheism as an important prophetic voice when it comes to religion. I think it’s very reasonable to protest and reject the gods people worship when it comes to injustice perpetuated in the name of religion (see Isaiah 1:13-17).
I think it would be interesting to hear from someone who believes but doesn't see the Bible as literal because it's so easy to debunk it when it's seen as literal. In other words, to hear how liberal/progressive Christians are able to reconcile their beliefs with what the Bible says. I think the Resurrection is the only event that no Christian can view metaphorically otherwise they wouldn't be Christian.
1:12:10-13 : Religion asks the huge questions that " only the religion can have an answer for "
Very true. In debate class you are taught about certain modes of response or viewpoints that are " against the rules " and are not to be used during your debate. Such as the "straw man" argument, which is to make up something not referring to the debate at all and knocking it down with your response to your own made up idea. So therefore, religion is using the straw man argument all day long but its just " making them look spiritual" instead of having the actual spiritual life to offer someone.
If there wasn't a bible, no chx or jew or muslim could even offer the ideas of " whats gods plan for you" whats the point of life, etc. People wouldn't even have the concept of " is there a god or not"
Come to find out my in family adoption might not have even been legal my mother gave me and my twin up to her aunt who already had four kids vause she was scared of cps taking us but i have nothing in common with my family and my adoptive mother spanked us but i think mostly me
They should do like a Spiritual Street Fighter e.g. The Christian God versus The King 👑 of the gods Zeus. 😜🤜🤛 Who will reign supreme over the Metaverse?!?!
Oh no not Harold Camping lol
Good God. More people providing us stupid people with answers to how to heal from trauma. No thanks. I am going this alone.
Trauma is relational, both in its creation and in its healing. ❤️
@@lizregan what do you mean by relational in its healing?
I’m living through so much trauma right now.
@@msakat1 hi, when I wrote that I think I was specifically thinking about the therapeutic relationship between a therapist and their client. There is quite a bit on the internet about the relational nature of trauma and how relationships can be used to help heal trauma.
This is a good TED talked I found by a psychologist I know
ruclips.net/video/PTsPdMqVwBg/видео.html
@@msakat1 healing takes place in the context of relationships.