Archival Washing of Fiber-Based Paper: Methods and Results
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Water waste in the darkroom is enormous, especially at the washing stage. This video shows and explains how the fixer elimination is happening, and how water waste can be minimized dramatically, still allowing to have perfectly archival results!
All the links to products, recipes and additional readings: linabessonova.p...
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Back in the time I always used the Ilford washing method for film and prints. It is simplified: quick rinse twice, wash for time X, change water, whash for time two times X, change water, whash for time four times X, change water, whash for time eight times X, done. Time X is a few seconds (10 to 20) for film and RC paper, and a few minutes (3 to 5) for fiber based paper. Washing is diffusion and diffusion is an exponential process. The less the difference in concentration, the longer it takes. Hence the increase of time the further the process is.
Proper fixing is an other rabbit hole. I always used the two tray, split fix method. You split the fix time in half and fix in strong rapid fixer. You always use the same chemistry for the first fix. This fixer gets most of the silver, wheres out fast. But the second fixer stays strong and rapidly removes the residual silver. This is again due to diffusion and difference in concentration. Once the first fixer is worn out it gets discharged. The second fixer becomes the first (as it has only very little silver) and is replaced by new fixer.
Ohh, well. Once upon a day I will reactivate my darkroom. I simply can't let loose of that DeVere 504...
This has worked well for me.
Hypo clear, wash, then selenium tone. If no stains from the selenium, you got a good print.
@@szabodaniel9447 yes of course
Can you make a video on drying fb papers?
Hi Lina,
Recently I started to print on fiber based paper from Ilford but I run into problems with drying and getting the photos really flat so I can frame and mat them in a nice way. After washing I put them between two drying papers for a few days under a pile of books but at the end they still are slightly curled at the edges and in the middle and not flat. Can I ask you what you recommend on how to flatten fiber based prints?
As this is the first time I place a reaction on your channel I would like to thank you for all the very instructive and informative videos - they are almost a master darkroom class on their own!!!! All very much appreciated!!!
Very best regards
Dirk
Very nice video, Lina! I love how accurate you were with your tests! I actually think rapid fixer at film strength is the way to go. Short soak time so not as much goes into the base and it's still going to be properly fixed even with the short times. So, my approach is rapid fix at film strength for 2min, then leave in a holding tray for as long as the printing session lasts. For the wash stage I use washaid and then finish it off with half an hour in a print washer that I scored very cheaply used. I haven't done any testing, but so far haven't had any problems either. Maybe I should double check with your recipe! By the way, the traditional way to stabilise images for display is to tone them additionally to archival wash. Personally I don't really like the tone changes for toning though, so I tend to use Stabinal if I'm going to sell the print. There are some very interesting comparisons in the book Way Beyond Monochrome for all of this stuff that I found very eye-opening! Great book in general!
Hi Lilly, yes, this is right, Way Beyond Monochrome is an amazing book. I also do a "Sistan" stabilizer at the end. And your process is quite close to what I do too. It's just about keeping the print long enough in the water, basically :)
Pulling the print out of fixer breaks the laminar flow. Just "sloshing" back and forth doesn't effectively get fixer into the paper fiber. The fixer just "slides" over the top layer. Did she get to wash aids, like perma wash?
Usually I wash my prints in a 30x40cm tray with a little water pump and I change all the water 5 times. Totally for a few of hours.
Have you attempted to use a Hypo washing aide when rinsing your paper? It can drastically cut down on washing times.
Hypo washing isn't practical. Time is about the same for the fixing phase and this has to multiply for each sheet. You can consider this way only for limited number of sheets and this can happen more often when paper size is large enough.
@@padesig I understand, thank you for the explanation.
It creates more environmental waste issues.
Thanks for asking that, and thanks to everyone else for the answers, I was wondering.
I know photographers that washed their prints in trough for horses and they’re fine.
Can’t you just wash them in a tray with running tap water for five minutes, use hypo for five minutes, and then wash in a tray under a tap again for five minutes?
Did anyone try to use a aquarium pump? In theory that should work as well...
"your margin of error is really tiny" that's what she said.
I don’t even use fibre based paper, but I watched it because Lina is one of the best darkroom users on RUclips.
Please give your live chat another go, it was the technology that let you down and not having anyone monitor the chat on the feed. The content was brilliant.
Thank you so much!
I'm working on more really really interesting content, which actually arised from that live event :)
Well prepared, well presented. This will improve my workflow. Thanks, Lina!
Well done, and very interesting! I'll still use my archival washer for its convenience. If I lived in Arizona, I would be more concerned about water waste. Since I live in the Pacific NW, my concern is usually too much water.
Lucky you! :D
Хелоу, а где русский язык? Но ты молодец так шпаришь на английском :-)
Great video. Thank you. Back in the 1980s & 90s I used to run a dry to dry black and white developing machine as part of my job and it would do the whole process in about 3 minutes. I'm sure those prints are still around. Resin prints really need very little washing! Recently I've been doing some wet plate ambrotypes and to wash I have a 5l tub with a shelf in it and a small aquarium pump to keep the water moving a bit. I change 1l of water or so each time I add or remove a plate from the bath. I've not done fibre based printing for a long time but would do the same thing with a small pump, relatively large volume of water. Never running water from the tap that would be such a waste.
Just came across your videos while embarking on my new journey into printing 4x5. Excellent content and presentation! Please keep them coming!
Hmmm...I've used an Arkay drum stainless steel print washer for 55 years @ 1.5 GPM flow and after using a dual fixing bath and either Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent or Orbit Bath, a wash of 30 minutes on double-weight bayarta based paper has given me archivally-processed prints by Kodak's Hypo-Test Solution all these years. I can load 60 8X10's, 45 11X14's or 30 16X 20's or 10 20x24's at a time (although I don't like to cram the 16x20's and 20x24's that tight). I use Hypo clear as my "holding tank", and I prefer an ooold Ansco sodium thiosulfate fixer formula I mix from "scratch" for paper to "rapid" fixers, but I don't like cucumbers either. My method yields prints that take selenium or gold toner well for increased D-max. I have 55 year-old prints
Lina chocolate brand logo shirt?
yep, Soviet chocolate :)
Good Testing!
At the time I worked in an commercial lab we did similar testing because of high water bills.
We ended up in a 4 tray cascade washing. Means we had 4 trays with clear tabwater. We put the print every 30 minutes(kitchen timer) in the next tray. After the 4th tray the print was ready.
We changed water in the first tray every 2 hours. In the other 3 trays we changed water twice a working day. We did fixer residue test and the prints were archival proof.
Motion is important. All of our trays stood on an tilting board that was permanent moved slowly by an motor like as if you lift the tray every 5 second at the corner by hand.
Constant movement is good for constant development result too...
Happy eco-friendly printing!
Ohhh yess cascade washing is the best if you have the space to create it. Thank you for reminding me of it. I will probably add all washing systems to my page later.
no agitation necessary?
Very interesting, thank you!
Did you try washaid to reduce overall wash times.
Testing with wash-aids would make a half-hour video! I want to introduce variables step by step :)
Thank you for you testing. Would you make a review video for the NOVA ECO print washer, would you recommended it? Thank you!
This is awesome, thank you so much! You might be my favorite darkroom youtuber.
love the shirt (that's one kid, who can't talk back :-) ), and great video.
Thank you, Lina. I live in a very arid region where drought and water supply is a real issue. You have just justified the soaking approach I’ve been using for awhile!
Hello Lina. Where is the Hypo Check test available to be bought?
I don't have room for a cascade wash, but I do soak and dump about 4 times in 5 minutes for RC paper.
It's practically the same right?
More helpful info. I've started playing with 4x5 Ilford Harman direct positive paper which is fibre. They also recommend 60' wash times, so this should be applicable, I will try soaking 90' with several changes of water and flipping to soak both sides. Will save a lot of water!
Thank you so much! The advice I've been reading for washing salt prints seemed soooo wasteful to me. Love your experiment and so grateful to you for showing the whole thing. Fantastic - you've saved my hobby!
Hi Lina, just see now this video. From many years I use to wash baryt papers into a large container with a lateral input for water that performs a great spin to the water. Papers up to 24x30 run fast in a circle for about 20 minutes with a continuous change of water. In the while I turn prints up and down every 3 minutes. Results are stable over years. My fixing method is traditional, not concentrate hypo but 3 minutes each sheet with continuous agitation, throw away hypo follow the related datasheet. I use often Tetenal Odorless Fixer fixer a very good (and consistent in time) product.
Wow. There is a lot of myth and misstatments about washing fb papers. Especially in era when water is valuable in comparison to time period when most darkroom textbook was written :)
so thanks for this test. Very useful.
I really hate to wash the print. I cannot spend hours to agitate a tray!! I like the aquarium pump method.. I'll try it.
Thank you for the video and for the links. I don't use an archival washer but I do use a hypo wash / wash aid. I saw through your link that the 5 minute recommended wash doesn't seem to work for you. I think I'll have to mix up a testing solution - thank you for the information.
Thanks Lina, very helpful discussion and testing the new paper!
Have you tried double fixing? I usually use my current fixer directly after the stop bath and a fresh one after that. The first fixer is also good for rc papers. When the first fixer is exhausted, the second one takes its place.
Very informative video. Thank you for posting this.
Rinsing fiber paper is an issue, also resin coated paper is better than ever.
Thank you Lina ! ))) It was a year ago... but hey I am catching up!
what are the exhaustion values you are using for testing the fixer with the Ag-ph testing kit? The ph may be different depending on the type fixer used.
For this specific experiment, I always used freshest fixer which is not used/exhausted at all.
However, if you want to keep track of your fixer, it's best to test it when freshly mixed, and then test again after some time. This way you see the PH shift relevant to the specific fixer you are using.
lina, thanks for this, you're great :)
Would an archival print washer work best if it was run for 30 minutes and then allowed to sit without running water for another 30 minutes?
This is basically what I do myself! I first rinse not in the washer, but with a hose in the tray, then 20 mins running water and 40 mins just leaving prints in
Это очень интересный метод. Даже не догадывался что так можно. Спасибо большое за видео!
Я тоже пока не попробовала, не верила, что так можно. А, оказывается, многие так промывают
Thank you so much for your work!
Dear Lina, I forgot to ask you, have you tried using wash aid? is it better? thanks!
I am using wash aid pretty much always with very important prints, but still wash the whote one hour in water. I'm paranoid :) I never tried same test with wash aid, I should!
Thx, I am currently planning my own mini darkroom. That makes it easier with the equipment. What I desperately need is a darkroom rubber duck 😁
You can't have a darkroom without one! :)
I understand that hypo clearing agent can shorten wash times, but I can’t find any info on RUclips
Edward Crosby I use it every time to cut my wash time in half. Was surprised it wasn’t mentioned
_“Trust nobody. Not even me.”_ Okay, I trust you not to trust you.
_Wait._
I’ve only printed on RC paper until now so I’m not sure what our community darkroom class uses for fiber. Maybe I’ll show the instructor this
Hahaha I don't trust myself either! Only empirical evidence!
Lina Bessonova spoken like a true skeptic 😀
Thanks for the video! Something I have been thinking about whenever I used fibre prints!
Happy it was useful!
wow nice to have you back..............
What an awesome news for my wallet
Great video. To me printing is a dark art best left to the professionals, like you.
I wasn't a professional just few years ago! ;)
Great video and interesting tests! Me myself mostly using RC papers and I find it very effective using a Paterson Auto Print Washer (a plastic box with a removable print holding basket inside). What good about it is that the basket is constantly moving when the water is running and very low waterflow is enough to create this motion. I let my prints sit there for 15-30 minutes as I keep filling the basket with new prints. But I only use this for large amount of prints (wedding sessions). When I print just few photos for myself I just let them float in a tray under slowly running tap water for 10-15 minutes. I'm currently building a new darkroom with more space so I probably would like to try make a 3-4 trays rack for washing FB papers when I finally get to using them too :)
Your method is surely the best one! I personally also use archival washers for large print amounts.
archival washers , no running water though. I change water every half hour
Great to see you again and these are very interesting tests! Looking forward to your next video. 🤗😉
Thank you! Looking forward to it too. Lots of editing to do, but it's gonna be epic. Next or the one after, don't know order yet!
Lina, what's the use for the led strip on the top of the sink?
It's bright red! I use it for photo/video purposes, otherwise it's too dark for filming!
Лайк за Олёнку!
Lina is back ❤️
I’m learning so much from your videos!!! Thank you so much!! Keep up the great work!
Thanks for the video Lina, great as always! I use alkaline fixer for the supposed shorter wash times but have never really gotten around to testing my prints. I’d be interested to know if alkaline vs acid fixer with wash aid have any difference in washing times. Though actually the alkaline fixer I used from fotospeed has been discontinued so I’ll now be switching to Tetenal’s neutral fixer.
I have an archival washer and I adjust the water to the faintest trickle as replacing the water before the residue has dissipated in it is pointless. Unfortunately the tray method is not practical if you’ve made a large number of prints but I’d use it for one or two.