I don't think I've ever seen a story where ruthlessness is the *end* of the character arc and framed as a *positive* trait. It's a really interesting perspective that, while I'm not sure it necessarily applies in our modern society, seems to serve this story well and reframe a lot of Odysseus' actions so the reasons behind them make more sense
I’ve been debating about this myself, and the way I’m interpreting it is that the difference between a gentle person and just a weak one is that they have the capacity to do harm and they know when to be ruthless and when to hold back. I do agree with you though that it might not quite fit in a modern context. The two angles I personally feel like people could take this through is someone in a literal fight for their lives against someone actively hurting them, or the less literal lens of the story being someone re-learning to stand up for themselves and what they care about (where the person might feel like they’re being too aggressive, but they’re actually doing it right and just not used to it)
Odysseus did a LOT of shady stuff in the epic cycle and I absolutely love him for it. Jay’s adaptation already made him a more “open arms” character than his classics characterization imo. I’m very relieved and glad we won’t have an adaptation where he sits down with all the suitors and be friends and live happily ever after lol
Well theoretically, to apply it in a modern sense you might replace ruthlessness with selfishness. There's a point where it's ok, if not necessary, to serve your own interest, but at the same time going too far just breeds more problems
As an Ancient Greek student, something that I think really resonates with the 'original' Odyssey is Just a Man. The very first word of the poem is 'andra', which means 'Man' and it is one of the main points of the story him being just one man. He is also said to be 'divine', which I can really see in the lines of the show "I am no man nor mythical".
Oh, wow, I never really would have gotten that the moral is Odysseus **embracing** ruthlessness. It started with him killing the sleeping Trojans and an innocent baby. Mercy's a skill more of this world could learn to use.
I think it's a middle ground where he learns that you cant keep giving people chances to be good people, if they show you who they are dont hesitate to kill.
@@Illier1which is honestly a good lesson for a lot of people. Because people will keep toxic people in their lives and need to learn to cut them out. But sometimes they can be blinded by the trama the toxic person causes and that can lead to them cutting out the good people too. Like how Odysseyus rejected Athena after losing his men to Polyphemus.
It also ends with Odysseus killing the suitors, which causes their families to raise arms in revolt before Athena steps in and stops them. Odysseus’s ruthlessness is part of a cycle of violence that would kill him except that Athena steps in and forces an end to the violence, directing contradicting the moral of the adaptation by protecting Odysseus through mercy.
@Urkkahlia this is assuming the story continues that way, which is probably wont. The Suitors are depicted as being incredibly douchy in this telling as is so it makes sense Odysseus doesn't give them the chance to get revenge for him coming back. This is only one song thats very obviously the low point in his emotional state. He's not going to become one or the other. He becomes a man who knows when to be merciful but also knows when punishment needs to fit the crimes.
It took me a bit to shift my more modern thinking to understand the theme. In most stories Open Arms would have been the morality lesson and end goal, but in this story it serves as the obstacle. Polities is such a charismatic character and his song is so catchy, but it ends up poisoning the well and the moment Odysseus starts trying to act upon the lesson his friend imparted upon him everything goes wrong. I do wish Polities had some sort of justification though. My friend is a historian and she pointed out to me that a lot of Odysseus's arc involves him learning humility, so I think him having to learn to be more self serving lends really well to his being more cautious. He's got divinity, he's a king, and he's a warrior trained by a war goddess but his name means nothing if he's dead from boasting about it.
This theme is explored a little at the end of the Cyclops saga and the beginning of the Ocean saga btw. Odysseus spares the cyclops after blinding him and goes on a rant about how great he is and proudly tells him his name. As a consequence of that the cyclops tells his father that Odysseus blinded him and Poseidon tries to kill Odysseus. Odysseus wouldn't be in danger if he was more humble and silently left, since the cyclops didn't know who he was
There is a bit of justification for Open Arms. Odysseus seeking help from Aeolus against the wishes of his men, and pleading with Circe for help getting around Poseidon. Both cases follow the theme of 'Open Arms' where he puts himself at risk to be nice and merciful in front of a greater power and is rewarded for it.
There's also justification for 'Open Arms' in the Circe Saga, where Odysseus manages to strike the right balance between mercy and ruthlessness. It is because Circe sees the lengths Odysseus will go to for his men, his loyalty to his wife, and the fact that he didn't try to harm her nymphs at all and focused only on her as the enemy yet didn't kill her when she had lost showed her that he had mercy and was different from the other men who came to her island. If Odysseus hadn't spared Circe, he wouldn't have gotten his men back and wouldn't have gotten directions to the Underworld, thus never developing the ruthlessness mindset and likely would've been caught by Poseidon at some point. And it's not like the musical frames ruthlessness as the ideal, simply that there must be a balance between the two. While things go fine for Odysseus and his crew during 'Suffering' and 'Different Beast' due to their new mindset, he ends up being ruthless to the wrong people, his crew. Odysseus' flaw was that he was far too merciful to foes, and far too ruthless to friends, which is why so many of his enemies are spared and so many of his comrades are dead. Because of what he sees as the necessary sacrifice of 6 men in 'Scylla', the crew revolts against him because they can no longer trust him, and he's now willing to sacrifice any of them in order to return home. Odysseus' ruthlessness both lets him live when he chooses his own life over the crew's in 'Thunder Bringer', but also haunts him throughout the entire musical and will never truly leave him.
I personally think that it doesn’t matter if he lives or dies, his morals will either hold up or flunk. He survived to tell the story, but a story where he kills sleeping people in a war of trickery, kills a baby, cuts off siren tails like today’s shark finning, kills 600 of his own men, one instance including him choosing himself over his crew, shows he has no balance between selflessness and selfishness. What lesson is there to be learned? Everyone is merciless, so you should be too?
@@Fluffadoodle yes... that is one of the themes of the story. While mercy helps Odysseus in like... one instance, he has to be ruthless to get home and then defend his home. I dont think this is meant to be a morality tale, but instead shows that evil actions can lead to greater good. If he had killed the cyclops he would have been fine. Nobody would have died beyond those lost on the fight with the cyclops.
I read somewhere that within the culture of its creation, Odysseus was an antihero. A trickster and a sneak in a world of mano-e-mano heroes. Some of my favorite bits and pieces have been where that shines through in almost silly ways, like at the end of "Ruthlessness", when he says, "All I gotta do is open this bag!"
I read differently. From what I understand, Odysseus is more of a hero in the original Greek tradition. However, the Roman culture is more about honor, and is not too found of tricks and deceit, so he is not a a model for them.
Yes and no. The Romans didn't like Odysseus all that much, but that was less because of him being tricksy and deceitful, but rather because the Romans thought themselves descendants of the Trojans, and given Odysseus being the key player in the Trojan Horse, they didn't have much love left for the guy. He was also not universally hated in Rome or anything, his intelligence and tendency to improvise himself to victory through seemingly impossible odds were still quite well liked. Somewhat the same can be said about the Greeks, by principle trickery was an admirable trait in heroes, because it represented intelligence, even Heracles solved a lot of his problems through smarts despite possibly being the hero best equipped to just punch his way through everything. Odysseus gets a little bit of a wrist slap because he is SO tricksy and scheming that it borders dishonour, but he was still a Greek and Roman hero, the last part being key here, he was always a hero, never a villain (Except if your name is Aeneas, but that guy was 80% hypocrisy by volume so who cares really?). Both the Romans and Greeks tended to think of him as a hero almost solely because of Hermes/Mercury being a core god in both pantheons. Hermes is a god of trickery and deceit, despite which he was always a revered and generally "good" god - Both the Greeks and the Romans understood Hermes and Mercury to be important and, for lack of a better term, morally good gods - and so values he represented were also seen as admirable. Odysseus problem is really just that he has too much of a good thing, stack overflow, basically.
@@jonathanstrock3562 If you're ever more curious about the Trojan to Roman bit, take a look at Virgil's Aeneid. It takes the relatively minor Trojan character Aeneas and turns him into the founder of Rome. Mythologically he is either the father or grandfather - I can't quite recall - of Romulus and Remus.
As a classicist, the amount of things that were kept from the original text and the stuff that was changed yet remained 110% in the spirit of the original text has lead me to rant about this for hours to the people around me (*cough*Astanax*cough*) and honestly, I'm amazed by your work
My favorite difference is that Odysseus actually stayed loyal to his wife, he was so in love with her that he hadn't even noticed other women. I think it's a very important modern update (in ancient Greece double standards were pretty common, only women were being judged and punished if they cheated), and although Odysseus accepting Circe's offer could raise a very important discussion (male SA survivors are being erased from public discourse and I think it's sad), I'm glad that we got a version where Circe respects and admires his faithfulness to Penelope. I screamed when after speculating if "There Are Other Ways" will be the Epic's version of "Say No To This", we got a song when he ACTUALLY says no to this (I love Hamilton, but he should learn from Odysseus). We stan our short, loyal king ❤ I can't wait for the full musical and I really hope for a stage version, it's too good to not become a Broadway hit 🔥
Wait I'm confused, how does him being SA'd count as cheating? That's like saying all the victims in of zues that were in relationships cheated for being taken advantaged of
@@E.V.moon101 I never said it does. In the original myth, Odysseus had a relationship with Circe out of his own will, because for men extramarital affairs were pretty common. That's cheating. In this song, when Circe suggested an intercourse, she expected Odysseus to be willing, like most men. He refused her offer, because he values his wife above everything, and Circe respected that, she didn't try to force him to anything. But if she did push him harder or he initially accepted her offer despite his unwillingness, he would've been in fact SAd, since coercion is not consent. So it wouldn't be counted as cheating, but Odysseus probably would've thought he did cheat. He would've felt guilty and dirty, he wouldn't want to accept it as SA, since he agreed to everything, he had a "choice" (life of his friends in exchange for his body and honor, seemingly a small price), he would've thought there was something else he could've done, that it could've been avoided somehow (aka one of the most common trauma responses to SA). And that could potentially raise a discussion about male SA survivors. But as I said, I'm glad that Circe respected his refusal and didn't push further, it sends a positive message that no means no.
I mean, the aspect of SA was present more in his relationship with Calypso (as he expresses clearly he doesn't want to be there and he doesn't want that relationship but she forces it and even compares it to the way male gods force women) so I don't think it has been erased so much as we haven't gotten there.
@@E.V.moon101In the OG story, or at least the translation I read, when talking about Circe, the relationship was a lot more "mutual" at least from what we're told
I think people don't understand that a character arc doesn't always mean a positive arc. The story of Odysseus in EPIC is one about balance and tragedy. Becoming ruthless isn't a positive change, it's simply a change-it has good and bad aspects. Losing kindness and trust is not a good thing. Killing indiscriminately is not a good thing. Odysseus doesn't do either imo. He forces his kindness away because he thinks it's what he needs to do in order to get home and I think the best part of EPIC is how both in the beginning of Act 1 and beginning of Act 2, both when Odysseus is at his kindest and at his cruelest, he makes mistakes that cost him dearly. Proving that it's not about being one extreme or the other. It's about balance and about the fact that life won't always work out, no matter how cunning you are-not every problem can be solved easily
It'*s really cool how he changed the story from: Odysseys crew is a bunch of idiots that fuck everything up and the gods just out to get him, to a story about a man showing mercy and paying the price for it.
I really like EPIC because in classic Greek fashion honestly Oddyesus seems like a bastard but in this he’s a bastard but his reason for being a bastard is his years of trauma and we get to SEE that trauma and how it slowly shapes him
He killed sleeping trojans, and a plan as well thought-out as the trojan war tells us more about his character and how he will go to great lengths to kill civilians trying to sleep. There’s reason but no excuse imo
Also something should be said about regional variations, Homer wrote down and “canonised” the Odyssey, but there were differences between each area it was told in. So it’s changes are keeping in theme with cultures change and values shifting over time! PS: plus it originally being an oral tradition would’ve likely included singing so 🔥
It's so interesting to hear that ruthlessness is going to be the character growth that Odysseus goes through. From the 2 arcs out currently as well as the clips from the rest of the musical, I got the impression that Odysseus was trying to find a balance between mercy and ruthlessness. Recognizing that fully embracing one or the other can cause more problems down the line.
If we’re asking questions, I’m really curious to know how you feel about all these TikToks and RUclips animatics using your songs, Jay. I’m sure you feel pride in your work and enjoy seeing it, but does the videos ever make you think “oh, I never thought it would look like that”? I know one of my personal favorite things is that mostly everyone sees Athena as an owl. Only Odysseus (and other gods) see her as a goddess. This is just among a few headcanons I’ve accepted, so I wanted to know if you’ve ever changed the way you thought about a song or the whole musical because of an interpretation
Just to add a little more to your question because I’m super curious and it coincides with the topic; did you expect the amount of animatics and also cover songs that would follow with each release or was that more of a surprise to you, Jay?
@@No_Named_Nobodyit's still headcanon because there's no indication in the source material that anyone else can see her at all, in any form. It's a headcanon that makes a lot of sense but it's still a headcanon
@@Neutral_Tired Not visibly see her. Not everyone sees gods/goddesses Irl. They’re drawing Athena as an owl because that’s her sacred animal. As opposed to an eagle that’s Zeus’s
One of the reasons I really like EPIC is the fact that you've established all of these characters in a very meaningful way. you cannot justify loss without the audience feeling some of it at the very least. So Polites' arc is a perfect addition here. It also makes Remember them hit a little too hard and the whole thing is just ...amazing and beautiful. I hope you know that your work is one of the most incredible things I've ever stumbled upon and it is pretty much a habit at this point to listen to the songs at least once a day haha. the fact that the Odyssey is such a well known classic, yet you still managed to create something so new with it is really a huge thing. Keep going...you're amazing. Thank you for sharing these glimpses into the creative process. It is fascinating to see how everything comes together bit by bit and what the exact thought process is behind all of it.
I agree with all of this! I listen to the track like every day too🤣 and I agree that Polities had an incredible arc, he was like my favorite character. Remember them is one of the most powerful songs, you just can’t describe it with words, only feelings can show the power of these peices
my dude focusing on the characters more than the plot is like. the essence of fanfic. you want more of a character so you make more of a character. this is fanfic and i love that this is fanfic because this is the kind of fanfic thats just a love letter to canon and each and every kind of fanfic is awesome but the way youre doing it is AWESOME
It gets wilder when you realize the Odyssey is a fanfic too. Homer took irl characters and irl events, added his own fantastical elements, and then wrote his own story based off of canon. If that ain't ancient fanfic, then I don't know what is XD
A way me and my sister summarized the changes when talking about it is that in the original, Odysseus is a lot more "passive" Things happen to him, and he suffer them. Whereas in Epic, he's more active in the choices he has to make to survive. (Thunder Bringer, big exemple) Which does call back to the ruthlessness idea.
as a classicist, i absolutely, terribly adore this musical. a lot of times, modern adaptations of classic materials do speak to a contemporary audience, but utterly fail at grasping the core itself of the original characters and themes (see: song of achilles). but epic expands what is already a big theme in the odyssey: from the beginning, the idea of "the end justifies the means", the end being "surviving", is pretty much an assumed, an inherent and never questioned trait of odysseus'. but you problematized it, put it under an ethical, emotional light, even. and, since compared to the iliad, the odyssey is VERY MUCH human, rather than divine, fits like a tailor-made glove. also, i am no expert in the technical aspects of a musical, but i love how the music is visual, how the music itself is able, without any visual support, to convey images and actions. i absolutely love it, i personally cannot wait for the next sagas!!
Absolutely adore how you've been able to shift the tone of the source material to align so well with the central message you want to show! The way you explain each portion is very inspirational and it really gives an 'oh wow! That's so clever!' feeling. And, the bit at around 2 minutes where Jay says 'especially when we lose him [polites]' and it cuts to a snippet of the killing strike moment as he goes :D at the camera 😭 genuinely made me gasp
I can't say I entirely agree with your central message, I'd be more inclined to say that, like everything else in the world, both Ruthlessness and Open Arms are good in moderation and very dangerous when over-indulged. However, I think what you're going for is still pretty respectable and you're executing it very well, and i do still love EPIC so far for what it is and I'm really looking forward to seeing the rest of it.
I wonder if part of the reason Ruthlessness is the focus and moral is because being selfless and other-serving became very highlighted and desired (sorry can’t find the words) while being selfish and protecting your own health is something that’s only growing to be respected. While it makes me sad that Ruthlessness is necessary in cases, there’s times in life where being ruthless or harsh is needed to keep yourself mentally healthy (though I still wonder the full thought process of Scylla when he stated being a monster to others rather than ourselves. Seems like he became even more self-focused between Suffering and Scylla)
Is one of the changes that Polites dies to Polyphemus in their fight? Much earlier than in the Odyssey, but great for pushing the narrative that 'open arms' might not be the way to go in Greek mythology.
I love hearing about all the symbolism in this musical. It’s clear that you’re a very meticulous thinker, and I love the deeper meanings hidden behind all of the amazing music. Speaking of music, if there’s any way you can give us information about the release date of the next saga, the knot of anticipation in my stomach would be grateful to unravel a little bit. I know that you’re still working out the details, but I’m very excited to know when the next completed saga is coming out. :)
New addition is that instead of that whole animal-fuckery with Poseidon, Odysseus beats him up with his OWN trident. (Which honestly makes more sense and I can see why it was done, because it is probably VERY hard to make a song out of Odysseus fighting and pinning down weird animals)
As someone interested in history and literature, I truly love the way you were able to recreate the heart of this ancient story while adding a modern perspective to it. I've recently bought the Odyssey in the newest Polish translatio and I'm looking forward to reading it and finding all the similarities and differences by myself!
i always thought epic's theme is such a good one. I'm a people pleaser and often harm myself to help others, so this is a good message to remind me that I can't be a hero to everyone. In someone's story, no matter how good I try to be, I may be the monster. That doesn't mean we should all be terrible, but our actions may sometimes be to protect our own hearts and homes. Love this musical so much dude
But on a different note, I agree with what everyone is saying on here. You're an amazingly creative and talented man and the way that you've thought so heavily on ways to incorporate the Odyssey into Epic and just flesh out every piece of music in a way that has us viewers captured and addicted is a masterpiece. Absolute chef's kiss
I think me and many others would be interested in a video like this but more factual. Going through the musical and talking about what is different from the book. Not necessarily the reasons you made the changes but at least a laundry list of changes.
Huh, I never considered this side of looking at the story from that angle! I was actually talking about it earlier with someone and my takeaway was that the story was about loyalty. Penelope being loyal to Odysseus despite him being gone for 20 years and having over a hundred suitors after him, Telemachus being loyal to his father despite never meeting him but doing his best to keep himself and his mother safe, and of course Odysseus himself. His journey is a battle of loyalty, being being loyal to his crew and their families before picking the nuclear, desperate approach and getting home to be loyal to at least his wife. He never falls to temptations of Circe, the sirens or Calypso. In a way, Penelope really is what keeps him alive And I feel like the gods challenge the idea of loyalty? They see life as disposable, Poseidon was fine with the idea of Odysseus killing his son, Zeus sadistically enjoys testing Odysseus and Athena who initially felt very strict about her ideals, eventually turned around to feeling a level of loyalty to Odysseus and went on to become Telemachus' mentor Idk, just some observations I've had. I just relistened to the entire album for like the 15th time in the last month, it's so godly
I think Homer Odyssey is more about how sometimes being better than someone at something might mess you up. For example: Odysseus was the one who gave Helen's father the pact plan which later turned into Trojan war because of which he suffered for his own brilliance.
I like this take. Most of Greek mythology (including Homer’s Odyssey) is a warning for humanity about having too much pride. Heck the real reason that Poseidon was on Odysseus’s behind is because he got cocky and shouted his name to the cyclops which is how Poseidon found him in the first place.
I love that instead of changing basically everything about the story *cough cough* Disney.… he instead tweaked a few things to make it more compelling. I love Jorge’s work.
I really enjoy how Jay retold the story of the Odyssey and I know that there are a bunch of different translations of the original story but, while I'm no more than some guy who really likes Greek mythology, I'm more of the idea that the versions where Odysseus never willingly cheated are more accurate. Now, I know everyone has their own opinions on that specific aspect of the story (most of the discourse I see about The Odyssey is whether or not Odysseus cheated), but I'm one of the ones who believes Odysseus didn't willingly cheat on his wife for a variety of reasons and I'm glad Jay kept that in his retelling of this story.
It's a great adaptation, though I find it ironic that the allegory, and approach of ruthlessness, actually has a detrimental effect opposed to a constructive one throughout the saga. When Odysseus takes a ruthless decision to follow through with k*lling Hector's son, it haunts him and impairs his judgement throughout the rest of the story, leading him to be more receptive to Polites' philosophy of open arms, and more rebellious and hostile to Athena's instruction of rejecting sentimentality: decisions which lead him to spare Polyphemus, AND tell him his name, resulting in the death of almost his entire crew and making the journey exponentially harder because now they've angered Poseidon. Speaking of his crew, the seeds of distrust are sown amongst them ("everything's changed since Polites") when he follows through on the deal he makes with Aeolus, resulting in him taking a more aloof authoritarian position towards his crew and distancing himself from them, which isn't the sole cause but does play some part in their decision to open the bag because they don't trust their captain anymore. Ironically, the way he deals with Circe, through eventual honesty and humility, is what results in her decision to change her perspective and actively help Odysseus and his men, not the part where he "ruthlessly" beats her in a duel. His later ruthless decisions in the story (executing the Sirens and sacrificing six of his crew) also have strongly negative consequences: first and foremost being that the crew mutiny against their ruthless captain, leading to their wayward landing on the island of Helios, which of course eventually results in the death of his remaining men at the hands of Zeus; this decision, as well as the one to kill the Sirens and sacrifice his men to Scylla, made from a viewpoint of being merciless, end up also turning most of the gods against Odysseus, such as Apollo, Hephaestus, Ares, Helios and Zeus, in addition to Poseidon already being against him. This results in Athena eventually having to save him from his imprisonment on Calypso's Island, through her wish to amend her falling out with her friend and forego her previous ruthlessness and forgive him, so to speak. Of course this wouldn't apply to the circumstances of the original story by Homer, but I thought it was an interesting observation in that Odysseus's ruthlessness in this story is what actually makes things worse, and the instances where he IS truly, but appropriately, kind and open end up having substantially positive consequences.
This is so fascinating-- and I think very true to the spirit of the society in which the source material was written. As a Classics student, I absolutely love all of the references to ancient Greek society having fundamentally different values to our own. And as a Hamilton fan, I REALLY love the use of motifs throughout this amazing work.
I do hope that open arms is referred to at the end, as Odysseus accepts that Penelope can indeed love the new him. Having mercy upon ourselves after we have been ruthless, and that people can love the world despite how dark the world is, is perhaps actually what Polites was ultimately trying to tell Odysseus. He just had a lot of his personal naivete in the way.
I don't think ruthlessness is a quality to strive for. But I think thta is what makes this musical so great. You see how odysious is forced in directions he never wants to go. He is faced with tragedy after tragedy. And all he can cling to is getting home to his wife and son. He looses a part of himself along the way.
I agree. This should be what the idea at the end should be. Maybe Jorge might be thinking about this? I hope so because that would make much more sense
@@projectmoonsleeperagent Idk whether you read my whole convo but yes that is what we got to in the end. I have a whole thing about it on my channel anyway. Still love talking to fans of this musical. You're all so cool :))
Also. Another great choice Jay made, now that we have the Thunder Saga out, is the Scylla scene. In the original, Scylla eats 6 of his men and THEN figures out to row as fast as they could. But I LOVE Jay made it Odysseus’ choice to sacrifice his men. Such Ruthlessness
I really enjoy this play and the way it analyzes ruthlessness and mercy. I'm not sure if I agree with the message being that you need to embrace ruthlessness, though. The world doesn't need more negativity put into it.
Have you read Circe by Madeline Miller? Also a retelling from parts of the Odyssey. So interesting to see it from Circe's (and a female) point of view. Amazing book.
This is awesome! I've been wondering about this question myself; the theme of ruthlessness is something I've been very interested in, and seeing your work has been a huge inspiration and joy.
My heart skipped when I first heard it. Then you showed that old tiktok of you singing "Monster" and I knew I'd heard this before. That old video I liked from way back then was my first introduction but I didn't really give it a chance until much later. Pretty cool
This all makes a lot of sense! Love this video! Although I still think it would be cool if the cast of Epic made a dramatized audiobook reading for the Odyssey.
I currently have an hiperfixation on both the poem and the musical, and i can't help but costantly compare them (not in a bad way) so usually i be stopping the video with my friends and go "did you know that in the odyssey-". Idk it's so fun to me. The message of this musical though i think is something that in the small parts of our lifes is a great morale. And a very original one tbh
In Homer's epic, Odysseus was not particularly faithful to Penelope either. He had children with Circe and Calypso. To make things even funnier, after Odysseus' death, Penelope married Odysseus and Circe's son.
Actually those aren’t in Homer’s epic. They were written by someone else after Homer was done with the Odyssey. I remember having this discussion with the Epic discord. Because they were written by someone else, for example Disney owning Star Wars now, it’s up to you if you see Odysseus having children with other women and dying by one of them canon.
I love that it’s possible to adapt something and still be able to make it all fit together, even though it doesn’t follow the source material word for word
Funny, because i don't think one can really take that lesson from the musical analysing it without this preconception. Frankly, Odysseus gains nothing from the moment he decides to be more "ruthless", most of his actions after that are what causes the gods arguments against Athena. The cyclops thing in remember them was pretty cool, and he could have been merciful without telling him his name and he wouldn't have any negative consequences from it. And every step of the way after he supposedly learned the lesson, he IS still pained and BEGS not to have to do it (thunderbringer). And again, Polites words save him from Killing himself. Really, the more you think about it, the more it seems like even if Polites himself was not the smartest, at least his way of thinking is the right one. I am almost saddened by the prospect that even the main guy behind the musical gets it wrong, but eh, it's a beautiful masterpiece anyway, cheers🎉
My favourite change you've made is having Odysseus in the fecking Odessy! In the poem he doesn't show until book 7... Question: Does Athena still play a part in Epic after 'My Goodbye'? In the poem, she disguises him in mist and as an old man when he goes to Ithica and is a big part in the end of the poem.
I just want to say that everything about this musical impresses me....I love it so much and I'm so glad that it exists. :) It's inspiring to me as a musician that I could someday tell stories like this too. Even better that it's based on the Odyssey!`
If I'm being quite honest, and perhaps slightly over-dramatic, what there is left of my sanity depends on when you'll be releasing more of EPIC's soundtrack. I've been listening to The Troy Saga and The Cyclops Saga religiously, devoting myself to master every song, despite my inability to meet EVERYONE'S range. This is me asking for more, sir.
Very recently found all of this and it's really getting me in the mood to reread the Odyssey because it's been years, but I don't recall Moly being able to summon a custom monster for brief but epic combat. Be neat to see something on that
Thanks to this video. For me, many details of the Epic (like the winions) did'nt make sense for me. This video clarify this doubts and difference about the Epic musical and real greek mythology.
This is also on clear display with Scylla. In The Oddesssy and the myths, Scyll is always paired with Charybdis. Sailing away from one put you in danger of the other. Basically, Scylla, you lose only 6 men, but make it through. Charybdis, you could lose no one or everyone. With Charybdis being absent from the song and narrative, it changes the choice.
I see the philosophies as two sides of the same coin. It's always a good idea to be kind and understanding, as you have no idea what someone is or has gone through; however you do not have to, nor should you let others use your kindness to hurt you. There in lies ruthlessness. Give people a chance, but if the overstep you are not obligated to allow continued interaction.
tbh i was thinking about this, since a big part of the source book is about attaining glory and memory/remembering. i was so confused when i listened for the first time, but this video clears my doubts, as i really liked the direction it had. my fav song is no longer you coz there's my boy tiresias doing god's work, again.
This is late, but I have a question: Did you ever have plan for Eris to be the the musical, and what would her music sound like, I sorts imagine a carnival sounding music.
we were taught homers the odyssey and that version was all about hospitality (how penelope and telemachus couldnt kick the suitors out because they werent the head of the family) and how in every island one party was breaking the laws (??? idk what its called in english) of hospitality (θεσμός της φιλοξενίας)
Are all the people who are singing the songs going to be the actors when this is performed as a musical, or is it going to be different people for the actors?
So, Polities does die in the fight with Polyphemus. I really couldn’t tell because when singing, it’s really difficult for me to distinguish between voices
My favorite change that he made is making ody NOT cheat on his wife, like, ever for those who don't know, he has a kid with circe and then the kid goes to look for ody when he's like 20 and accidentally kills him but meets penelope and telemachus and then they meet circe and then circe's son marries penelope and telemachus marries circie lol mythology gets weird sometimes
Wait, so a main lesson from EPIC is supposed to be that ruthlessness is a good thing? I got the opposite read from the musical so far. Please bear in mind I am new to this as I have only just listened to all the released songs (up until the end of the Wisdom saga) and it seems to be the opposite message. Everyone who proposes ruthlessness as the correct solution are portrayed as wrong or flat-out evil. -Zeus and Poseidon are petty tyrants flexing their power and ego. -Aeolus is toying with them for fun -Polyphemus and Scylla are literal monsters with no redeeming qualities (at least none really shown) -and the two major other characters are Circe and Athena who seem to ultimately relent on this idea. Circe lets Odysseus and his men go safely and suffers no consequences (at least up until the end of the Wisdom Saga) and Athena comes back to help Telemachus and Odysseus because she regrets what she said to him. Athena's struggle in God Games in particular seems painted as exceedingly noble and righteous. Wouldn't the more ruthless option be to let him rot with Calypso and start again with his kid, especially considering the great effort it puts her through with the other Olympians. From Odysseus's side i see how his lack of ruthlessness can lead to later problems, but it also seems to end some, namely with Circe. He doesn't kill her or incapacitate her forever, he breaks down, speaks earnestly and honestly about what he wants, and she lets him go. I mean he ate the Moley but that didn't harm her at all. Further more from his side of the story ruthlessness seems portrayed exclusively negative while the lack of it is seen as a positive. -eternal sunshine Polites is never really shown as "naive" or "a fool." Even after his death, he seems to be portrayed fondly as a good person and friend. -the prophecy with the prophet showing the bloodied ruthless Odysseus is presented as a horror scene, like this is a dark future, the thing we do not want. -and almost the minute after Odysseus becomes ruthless we get the sirens and Scylla. The sirens's deaths which PO Apollo and might have caused problems if he was stronger or pettier. He sacrifices six men to Scylla which almost immediately leads to a mutiny, and the isle of the sacred cows which wasn't his fault. -Then Zeus shows up, he sacrifices the rest of his crew (which he clearly cares for still) and gets sent to Ogygia with Calypso for a few years, which he absolutely hates. Like all-in-all so far, I would argue the story portrays ruthlessness as bad or at least problematic. Am I missing something here?
From the way I see it, it's not that one or the other is better, but that it's a matter of balance and knowing when to apply what. The cyclops leaned too far towards ruthlessness, and he paid for it. Though, Odysseus leaned too much towards open arms in this moment, so he paid for that too. With Circe, he applied open arms correctly and it paid off. With the infant, well, that prevented a lot of shit, so in that sense ruthlessness paid off. Though with Scylla, while some ruthlessness *was* needed because a sacrifice was necessary, he leaned too far into it by essentially tricking his own crew rather than being upfront about it and taking volunteers and/or drawing straws. You need the capacity for both, and you need to know what to apply in what situation and to what extent. The way I see it is that in Epic, Odysseus needs to learn to embrace ruthlessness more and learn how to balance it properly and it's failing to strike the balance the situation requires that causes trouble.
![Stromae, Pomme - “Ma Meilleure Ennemie” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1F3OGIFnW1k/mqdefault.jpg)
I love how "Open Arms" and "Ruthlessness" are so different from each other
Perfect PFP, 10/10
that's kind of the point lol
"Especially when we lose him- (cut to Survive THUD)"
2:00
That made me laugh, I'm sorry
Bro Im over here chuckling in class after that
The way I audibly gasped at the audacity 😂
At some point is quoted saying "Because I like pancakes" in some recap of the story 😂
I was caught so off guard by his smile for real tho. Poleties dies and all we get is this: 😀
Ans the giant smile he had on his face XD
cant believe homer enjoyed the musical so much that he adapted it into a full thing
He even made a prequel!
@@ChubbyTadpoleheard there were spinoffs too, but I'm pretty sure those got lost to time
@@ChubbyTadpole Sadly the prequel to the prequel went out of print
FR!??!
I cant believe someone else made a sequel which we didn’t talk about
I don't think I've ever seen a story where ruthlessness is the *end* of the character arc and framed as a *positive* trait. It's a really interesting perspective that, while I'm not sure it necessarily applies in our modern society, seems to serve this story well and reframe a lot of Odysseus' actions so the reasons behind them make more sense
I’ve been debating about this myself, and the way I’m interpreting it is that the difference between a gentle person and just a weak one is that they have the capacity to do harm and they know when to be ruthless and when to hold back.
I do agree with you though that it might not quite fit in a modern context. The two angles I personally feel like people could take this through is someone in a literal fight for their lives against someone actively hurting them, or the less literal lens of the story being someone re-learning to stand up for themselves and what they care about (where the person might feel like they’re being too aggressive, but they’re actually doing it right and just not used to it)
Yeah as someone very much like polites, there's something to be said for standing up for yourself sometimes (that I still need to learn)
Odysseus did a LOT of shady stuff in the epic cycle and I absolutely love him for it. Jay’s adaptation already made him a more “open arms” character than his classics characterization imo. I’m very relieved and glad we won’t have an adaptation where he sits down with all the suitors and be friends and live happily ever after lol
Well theoretically, to apply it in a modern sense you might replace ruthlessness with selfishness. There's a point where it's ok, if not necessary, to serve your own interest, but at the same time going too far just breeds more problems
@@zashgekido5616 Exactly! You get it :)
As an Ancient Greek student, something that I think really resonates with the 'original' Odyssey is Just a Man. The very first word of the poem is 'andra', which means 'Man' and it is one of the main points of the story him being just one man. He is also said to be 'divine', which I can really see in the lines of the show "I am no man nor mythical".
great-grandson of Apollo, isn't he? or...Hermes? probably Hermes.
@@acolytetojippityHermes is the trickster of his pantheon so going of a fellow trickster God Loki it's probably Hermes.
Only for Athena to still call him as just a man after he showed his hubris
@@Tomy_LightningMore or less, he is quite loyal and diligent to his fellow Gods
@@mado-wh4jv me when i steal apollo's sacred cows the day im born
Oh, wow, I never really would have gotten that the moral is Odysseus **embracing** ruthlessness. It started with him killing the sleeping Trojans and an innocent baby. Mercy's a skill more of this world could learn to use.
I think it's a middle ground where he learns that you cant keep giving people chances to be good people, if they show you who they are dont hesitate to kill.
@@Illier1which is honestly a good lesson for a lot of people. Because people will keep toxic people in their lives and need to learn to cut them out. But sometimes they can be blinded by the trama the toxic person causes and that can lead to them cutting out the good people too. Like how Odysseyus rejected Athena after losing his men to Polyphemus.
It also ends with Odysseus killing the suitors, which causes their families to raise arms in revolt before Athena steps in and stops them. Odysseus’s ruthlessness is part of a cycle of violence that would kill him except that Athena steps in and forces an end to the violence, directing contradicting the moral of the adaptation by protecting Odysseus through mercy.
@Urkkahlia this is assuming the story continues that way, which is probably wont. The Suitors are depicted as being incredibly douchy in this telling as is so it makes sense Odysseus doesn't give them the chance to get revenge for him coming back.
This is only one song thats very obviously the low point in his emotional state. He's not going to become one or the other. He becomes a man who knows when to be merciful but also knows when punishment needs to fit the crimes.
Take it like this. Is it a mercy to blind a child, and leave him to starve after butchering his family???
It took me a bit to shift my more modern thinking to understand the theme. In most stories Open Arms would have been the morality lesson and end goal, but in this story it serves as the obstacle. Polities is such a charismatic character and his song is so catchy, but it ends up poisoning the well and the moment Odysseus starts trying to act upon the lesson his friend imparted upon him everything goes wrong. I do wish Polities had some sort of justification though.
My friend is a historian and she pointed out to me that a lot of Odysseus's arc involves him learning humility, so I think him having to learn to be more self serving lends really well to his being more cautious. He's got divinity, he's a king, and he's a warrior trained by a war goddess but his name means nothing if he's dead from boasting about it.
This theme is explored a little at the end of the Cyclops saga and the beginning of the Ocean saga btw. Odysseus spares the cyclops after blinding him and goes on a rant about how great he is and proudly tells him his name. As a consequence of that the cyclops tells his father that Odysseus blinded him and Poseidon tries to kill Odysseus. Odysseus wouldn't be in danger if he was more humble and silently left, since the cyclops didn't know who he was
There is a bit of justification for Open Arms. Odysseus seeking help from Aeolus against the wishes of his men, and pleading with Circe for help getting around Poseidon. Both cases follow the theme of 'Open Arms' where he puts himself at risk to be nice and merciful in front of a greater power and is rewarded for it.
There's also justification for 'Open Arms' in the Circe Saga, where Odysseus manages to strike the right balance between mercy and ruthlessness. It is because Circe sees the lengths Odysseus will go to for his men, his loyalty to his wife, and the fact that he didn't try to harm her nymphs at all and focused only on her as the enemy yet didn't kill her when she had lost showed her that he had mercy and was different from the other men who came to her island. If Odysseus hadn't spared Circe, he wouldn't have gotten his men back and wouldn't have gotten directions to the Underworld, thus never developing the ruthlessness mindset and likely would've been caught by Poseidon at some point.
And it's not like the musical frames ruthlessness as the ideal, simply that there must be a balance between the two. While things go fine for Odysseus and his crew during 'Suffering' and 'Different Beast' due to their new mindset, he ends up being ruthless to the wrong people, his crew. Odysseus' flaw was that he was far too merciful to foes, and far too ruthless to friends, which is why so many of his enemies are spared and so many of his comrades are dead. Because of what he sees as the necessary sacrifice of 6 men in 'Scylla', the crew revolts against him because they can no longer trust him, and he's now willing to sacrifice any of them in order to return home. Odysseus' ruthlessness both lets him live when he chooses his own life over the crew's in 'Thunder Bringer', but also haunts him throughout the entire musical and will never truly leave him.
I personally think that it doesn’t matter if he lives or dies, his morals will either hold up or flunk. He survived to tell the story, but a story where he kills sleeping people in a war of trickery, kills a baby, cuts off siren tails like today’s shark finning, kills 600 of his own men, one instance including him choosing himself over his crew, shows he has no balance between selflessness and selfishness. What lesson is there to be learned? Everyone is merciless, so you should be too?
@@Fluffadoodle yes... that is one of the themes of the story. While mercy helps Odysseus in like... one instance, he has to be ruthless to get home and then defend his home.
I dont think this is meant to be a morality tale, but instead shows that evil actions can lead to greater good. If he had killed the cyclops he would have been fine. Nobody would have died beyond those lost on the fight with the cyclops.
I read somewhere that within the culture of its creation, Odysseus was an antihero. A trickster and a sneak in a world of mano-e-mano heroes. Some of my favorite bits and pieces have been where that shines through in almost silly ways, like at the end of "Ruthlessness", when he says, "All I gotta do is open this bag!"
I read differently. From what I understand, Odysseus is more of a hero in the original Greek tradition. However, the Roman culture is more about honor, and is not too found of tricks and deceit, so he is not a a model for them.
Yes and no. The Romans didn't like Odysseus all that much, but that was less because of him being tricksy and deceitful, but rather because the Romans thought themselves descendants of the Trojans, and given Odysseus being the key player in the Trojan Horse, they didn't have much love left for the guy. He was also not universally hated in Rome or anything, his intelligence and tendency to improvise himself to victory through seemingly impossible odds were still quite well liked. Somewhat the same can be said about the Greeks, by principle trickery was an admirable trait in heroes, because it represented intelligence, even Heracles solved a lot of his problems through smarts despite possibly being the hero best equipped to just punch his way through everything. Odysseus gets a little bit of a wrist slap because he is SO tricksy and scheming that it borders dishonour, but he was still a Greek and Roman hero, the last part being key here, he was always a hero, never a villain (Except if your name is Aeneas, but that guy was 80% hypocrisy by volume so who cares really?).
Both the Romans and Greeks tended to think of him as a hero almost solely because of Hermes/Mercury being a core god in both pantheons. Hermes is a god of trickery and deceit, despite which he was always a revered and generally "good" god - Both the Greeks and the Romans understood Hermes and Mercury to be important and, for lack of a better term, morally good gods - and so values he represented were also seen as admirable. Odysseus problem is really just that he has too much of a good thing, stack overflow, basically.
@@desreploid3353 wow, thanks for the history lesson! Especially about the Trojan to Roman bit.
@@jonathanstrock3562 If you're ever more curious about the Trojan to Roman bit, take a look at Virgil's Aeneid. It takes the relatively minor Trojan character Aeneas and turns him into the founder of Rome. Mythologically he is either the father or grandfather - I can't quite recall - of Romulus and Remus.
As a classicist, the amount of things that were kept from the original text and the stuff that was changed yet remained 110% in the spirit of the original text has lead me to rant about this for hours to the people around me (*cough*Astanax*cough*) and honestly, I'm amazed by your work
Same, and also thank you for existing cause now i feel less alone in my (slightly) obsessive way of living rn xD
@@melixie286 Oh man I felt that in my soul 😂
My favorite difference is that Odysseus actually stayed loyal to his wife, he was so in love with her that he hadn't even noticed other women. I think it's a very important modern update (in ancient Greece double standards were pretty common, only women were being judged and punished if they cheated), and although Odysseus accepting Circe's offer could raise a very important discussion (male SA survivors are being erased from public discourse and I think it's sad), I'm glad that we got a version where Circe respects and admires his faithfulness to Penelope. I screamed when after speculating if "There Are Other Ways" will be the Epic's version of "Say No To This", we got a song when he ACTUALLY says no to this (I love Hamilton, but he should learn from Odysseus). We stan our short, loyal king ❤ I can't wait for the full musical and I really hope for a stage version, it's too good to not become a Broadway hit 🔥
Damn, I was hoping that carried true between Epic and The Odyssey. Sad...
Wait I'm confused, how does him being SA'd count as cheating? That's like saying all the victims in of zues that were in relationships cheated for being taken advantaged of
@@E.V.moon101 I never said it does. In the original myth, Odysseus had a relationship with Circe out of his own will, because for men extramarital affairs were pretty common. That's cheating. In this song, when Circe suggested an intercourse, she expected Odysseus to be willing, like most men. He refused her offer, because he values his wife above everything, and Circe respected that, she didn't try to force him to anything. But if she did push him harder or he initially accepted her offer despite his unwillingness, he would've been in fact SAd, since coercion is not consent. So it wouldn't be counted as cheating, but Odysseus probably would've thought he did cheat. He would've felt guilty and dirty, he wouldn't want to accept it as SA, since he agreed to everything, he had a "choice" (life of his friends in exchange for his body and honor, seemingly a small price), he would've thought there was something else he could've done, that it could've been avoided somehow (aka one of the most common trauma responses to SA). And that could potentially raise a discussion about male SA survivors. But as I said, I'm glad that Circe respected his refusal and didn't push further, it sends a positive message that no means no.
I mean, the aspect of SA was present more in his relationship with Calypso (as he expresses clearly he doesn't want to be there and he doesn't want that relationship but she forces it and even compares it to the way male gods force women) so I don't think it has been erased so much as we haven't gotten there.
@@E.V.moon101In the OG story, or at least the translation I read, when talking about Circe, the relationship was a lot more "mutual" at least from what we're told
I think people don't understand that a character arc doesn't always mean a positive arc. The story of Odysseus in EPIC is one about balance and tragedy. Becoming ruthless isn't a positive change, it's simply a change-it has good and bad aspects. Losing kindness and trust is not a good thing. Killing indiscriminately is not a good thing. Odysseus doesn't do either imo. He forces his kindness away because he thinks it's what he needs to do in order to get home and I think the best part of EPIC is how both in the beginning of Act 1 and beginning of Act 2, both when Odysseus is at his kindest and at his cruelest, he makes mistakes that cost him dearly. Proving that it's not about being one extreme or the other. It's about balance and about the fact that life won't always work out, no matter how cunning you are-not every problem can be solved easily
💯💯
It'*s really cool how he changed the story from: Odysseys crew is a bunch of idiots that fuck everything up and the gods just out to get him, to a story about a man showing mercy and paying the price for it.
I really like EPIC because in classic Greek fashion honestly Oddyesus seems like a bastard but in this he’s a bastard but his reason for being a bastard is his years of trauma and we get to SEE that trauma and how it slowly shapes him
He killed sleeping trojans, and a plan as well thought-out as the trojan war tells us more about his character and how he will go to great lengths to kill civilians trying to sleep. There’s reason but no excuse imo
2:00 nOT THE CLUB REFERENCE WHEN THEY FIGHT THE CYCLOPS ALKDJASKLDFJA 🤣
He looks so happy about it too
absolutely diabolical
Also something should be said about regional variations, Homer wrote down and “canonised” the Odyssey, but there were differences between each area it was told in. So it’s changes are keeping in theme with cultures change and values shifting over time!
PS: plus it originally being an oral tradition would’ve likely included singing so 🔥
I think it was more like I'll do some research tho
It's so interesting to hear that ruthlessness is going to be the character growth that Odysseus goes through.
From the 2 arcs out currently as well as the clips from the rest of the musical, I got the impression that Odysseus was trying to find a balance between mercy and ruthlessness. Recognizing that fully embracing one or the other can cause more problems down the line.
That feels like it would be a better lesson
If we’re asking questions, I’m really curious to know how you feel about all these TikToks and RUclips animatics using your songs, Jay. I’m sure you feel pride in your work and enjoy seeing it, but does the videos ever make you think “oh, I never thought it would look like that”? I know one of my personal favorite things is that mostly everyone sees Athena as an owl. Only Odysseus (and other gods) see her as a goddess. This is just among a few headcanons I’ve accepted, so I wanted to know if you’ve ever changed the way you thought about a song or the whole musical because of an interpretation
He reacted to a few so I think he likes them lol. But im curious to what he'll have to say as well
Just to add a little more to your question because I’m super curious and it coincides with the topic; did you expect the amount of animatics and also cover songs that would follow with each release or was that more of a surprise to you, Jay?
People see Athena as an Owl because that’s actually her sacred animal. That’s not a headcanon, thats accurate.
@@No_Named_Nobodyit's still headcanon because there's no indication in the source material that anyone else can see her at all, in any form. It's a headcanon that makes a lot of sense but it's still a headcanon
@@Neutral_Tired
Not visibly see her. Not everyone sees gods/goddesses
Irl. They’re drawing Athena as an owl because that’s her sacred animal. As opposed to an eagle that’s Zeus’s
2:03 yeah, let's pretend those club blows never hurt... *I jumped the first times I heard the song. It hurt pretty bad 🤧*
One of the reasons I really like EPIC is the fact that you've established all of these characters in a very meaningful way. you cannot justify loss without the audience feeling some of it at the very least. So Polites' arc is a perfect addition here. It also makes Remember them hit a little too hard and the whole thing is just ...amazing and beautiful. I hope you know that your work is one of the most incredible things I've ever stumbled upon and it is pretty much a habit at this point to listen to the songs at least once a day haha. the fact that the Odyssey is such a well known classic, yet you still managed to create something so new with it is really a huge thing. Keep going...you're amazing. Thank you for sharing these glimpses into the creative process. It is fascinating to see how everything comes together bit by bit and what the exact thought process is behind all of it.
I agree with all of this! I listen to the track like every day too🤣 and I agree that Polities had an incredible arc, he was like my favorite character. Remember them is one of the most powerful songs, you just can’t describe it with words, only feelings can show the power of these peices
@@colbymenck 🎉🎉😂❤. The lotus eaters are funny because they give off stoner comedy vibes 😂😂❤.
my dude focusing on the characters more than the plot is like. the essence of fanfic. you want more of a character so you make more of a character. this is fanfic and i love that this is fanfic because this is the kind of fanfic thats just a love letter to canon and each and every kind of fanfic is awesome but the way youre doing it is AWESOME
It gets wilder when you realize the Odyssey is a fanfic too. Homer took irl characters and irl events, added his own fantastical elements, and then wrote his own story based off of canon. If that ain't ancient fanfic, then I don't know what is XD
A way me and my sister summarized the changes when talking about it is that in the original, Odysseus is a lot more "passive"
Things happen to him, and he suffer them.
Whereas in Epic, he's more active in the choices he has to make to survive. (Thunder Bringer, big exemple)
Which does call back to the ruthlessness idea.
So refreshing to find a creator who respects the original source material!!
as a classicist, i absolutely, terribly adore this musical. a lot of times, modern adaptations of classic materials do speak to a contemporary audience, but utterly fail at grasping the core itself of the original characters and themes (see: song of achilles). but epic expands what is already a big theme in the odyssey: from the beginning, the idea of "the end justifies the means", the end being "surviving", is pretty much an assumed, an inherent and never questioned trait of odysseus'. but you problematized it, put it under an ethical, emotional light, even. and, since compared to the iliad, the odyssey is VERY MUCH human, rather than divine, fits like a tailor-made glove.
also, i am no expert in the technical aspects of a musical, but i love how the music is visual, how the music itself is able, without any visual support, to convey images and actions.
i absolutely love it, i personally cannot wait for the next sagas!!
Absolutely adore how you've been able to shift the tone of the source material to align so well with the central message you want to show! The way you explain each portion is very inspirational and it really gives an 'oh wow! That's so clever!' feeling.
And, the bit at around 2 minutes where Jay says 'especially when we lose him [polites]' and it cuts to a snippet of the killing strike moment as he goes :D at the camera 😭 genuinely made me gasp
Watching that tiktok for the first time and seeing how happy he looked killed me
THAT BEAT DROP OH MY GOD HOW DARE! And also omg the morality questions in this this is so brilliant I'm fascinated by it
His crew asked for ruthlessness and they got it 😭
I can't say I entirely agree with your central message, I'd be more inclined to say that, like everything else in the world, both Ruthlessness and Open Arms are good in moderation and very dangerous when over-indulged.
However, I think what you're going for is still pretty respectable and you're executing it very well, and i do still love EPIC so far for what it is and I'm really looking forward to seeing the rest of it.
I wonder if part of the reason Ruthlessness is the focus and moral is because being selfless and other-serving became very highlighted and desired (sorry can’t find the words) while being selfish and protecting your own health is something that’s only growing to be respected. While it makes me sad that Ruthlessness is necessary in cases, there’s times in life where being ruthless or harsh is needed to keep yourself mentally healthy (though I still wonder the full thought process of Scylla when he stated being a monster to others rather than ourselves. Seems like he became even more self-focused between Suffering and Scylla)
Is one of the changes that Polites dies to Polyphemus in their fight? Much earlier than in the Odyssey, but great for pushing the narrative that 'open arms' might not be the way to go in Greek mythology.
I love hearing about all the symbolism in this musical. It’s clear that you’re a very meticulous thinker, and I love the deeper meanings hidden behind all of the amazing music. Speaking of music, if there’s any way you can give us information about the release date of the next saga, the knot of anticipation in my stomach would be grateful to unravel a little bit. I know that you’re still working out the details, but I’m very excited to know when the next completed saga is coming out. :)
New addition is that instead of that whole animal-fuckery with Poseidon, Odysseus beats him up with his OWN trident. (Which honestly makes more sense and I can see why it was done, because it is probably VERY hard to make a song out of Odysseus fighting and pinning down weird animals)
As someone interested in history and literature, I truly love the way you were able to recreate the heart of this ancient story while adding a modern perspective to it. I've recently bought the Odyssey in the newest Polish translatio and I'm looking forward to reading it and finding all the similarities and differences by myself!
i always thought epic's theme is such a good one. I'm a people pleaser and often harm myself to help others, so this is a good message to remind me that I can't be a hero to everyone. In someone's story, no matter how good I try to be, I may be the monster. That doesn't mean we should all be terrible, but our actions may sometimes be to protect our own hearts and homes.
Love this musical so much dude
But on a different note, I agree with what everyone is saying on here. You're an amazingly creative and talented man and the way that you've thought so heavily on ways to incorporate the Odyssey into Epic and just flesh out every piece of music in a way that has us viewers captured and addicted is a masterpiece.
Absolute chef's kiss
I think me and many others would be interested in a video like this but more factual. Going through the musical and talking about what is different from the book. Not necessarily the reasons you made the changes but at least a laundry list of changes.
Huh, I never considered this side of looking at the story from that angle! I was actually talking about it earlier with someone and my takeaway was that the story was about loyalty. Penelope being loyal to Odysseus despite him being gone for 20 years and having over a hundred suitors after him, Telemachus being loyal to his father despite never meeting him but doing his best to keep himself and his mother safe, and of course Odysseus himself. His journey is a battle of loyalty, being being loyal to his crew and their families before picking the nuclear, desperate approach and getting home to be loyal to at least his wife. He never falls to temptations of Circe, the sirens or Calypso. In a way, Penelope really is what keeps him alive
And I feel like the gods challenge the idea of loyalty? They see life as disposable, Poseidon was fine with the idea of Odysseus killing his son, Zeus sadistically enjoys testing Odysseus and Athena who initially felt very strict about her ideals, eventually turned around to feeling a level of loyalty to Odysseus and went on to become Telemachus' mentor
Idk, just some observations I've had. I just relistened to the entire album for like the 15th time in the last month, it's so godly
I think Homer Odyssey is more about how sometimes being better than someone at something might mess you up. For example: Odysseus was the one who gave Helen's father the pact plan which later turned into Trojan war because of which he suffered for his own brilliance.
I like this take. Most of Greek mythology (including Homer’s Odyssey) is a warning for humanity about having too much pride. Heck the real reason that Poseidon was on Odysseus’s behind is because he got cocky and shouted his name to the cyclops which is how Poseidon found him in the first place.
I love that instead of changing basically everything about the story *cough cough* Disney.… he instead tweaked a few things to make it more compelling. I love Jorge’s work.
I really enjoy how Jay retold the story of the Odyssey and I know that there are a bunch of different translations of the original story but, while I'm no more than some guy who really likes Greek mythology, I'm more of the idea that the versions where Odysseus never willingly cheated are more accurate. Now, I know everyone has their own opinions on that specific aspect of the story (most of the discourse I see about The Odyssey is whether or not Odysseus cheated), but I'm one of the ones who believes Odysseus didn't willingly cheat on his wife for a variety of reasons and I'm glad Jay kept that in his retelling of this story.
I just re-read the odyssey, and it just made me more excited for this musical. Your storytelling is amazing and I'm so invested in this version.
I find myself rooting for Odysseus to embrace kindness in the end, even though i know it won’t happen. It makes it all so much more tragic
Finally someone that knows what an adaptation should be!
Everytime I see or hear this man, I fall more in love with him it's almost sad😂😢
Ahh I have notifications on for this very reason! Your videos on this are so cool and I love seeing your thought process.
It's a great adaptation, though I find it ironic that the allegory, and approach of ruthlessness, actually has a detrimental effect opposed to a constructive one throughout the saga.
When Odysseus takes a ruthless decision to follow through with k*lling Hector's son, it haunts him and impairs his judgement throughout the rest of the story, leading him to be more receptive to Polites' philosophy of open arms, and more rebellious and hostile to Athena's instruction of rejecting sentimentality: decisions which lead him to spare Polyphemus, AND tell him his name, resulting in the death of almost his entire crew and making the journey exponentially harder because now they've angered Poseidon.
Speaking of his crew, the seeds of distrust are sown amongst them ("everything's changed since Polites") when he follows through on the deal he makes with Aeolus, resulting in him taking a more aloof authoritarian position towards his crew and distancing himself from them, which isn't the sole cause but does play some part in their decision to open the bag because they don't trust their captain anymore.
Ironically, the way he deals with Circe, through eventual honesty and humility, is what results in her decision to change her perspective and actively help Odysseus and his men, not the part where he "ruthlessly" beats her in a duel.
His later ruthless decisions in the story (executing the Sirens and sacrificing six of his crew) also have strongly negative consequences: first and foremost being that the crew mutiny against their ruthless captain, leading to their wayward landing on the island of Helios, which of course eventually results in the death of his remaining men at the hands of Zeus; this decision, as well as the one to kill the Sirens and sacrifice his men to Scylla, made from a viewpoint of being merciless, end up also turning most of the gods against Odysseus, such as Apollo, Hephaestus, Ares, Helios and Zeus, in addition to Poseidon already being against him. This results in Athena eventually having to save him from his imprisonment on Calypso's Island, through her wish to amend her falling out with her friend and forego her previous ruthlessness and forgive him, so to speak.
Of course this wouldn't apply to the circumstances of the original story by Homer, but I thought it was an interesting observation in that Odysseus's ruthlessness in this story is what actually makes things worse, and the instances where he IS truly, but appropriately, kind and open end up having substantially positive consequences.
This is so fascinating-- and I think very true to the spirit of the society in which the source material was written. As a Classics student, I absolutely love all of the references to ancient Greek society having fundamentally different values to our own. And as a Hamilton fan, I REALLY love the use of motifs throughout this amazing work.
I do hope that open arms is referred to at the end, as Odysseus accepts that Penelope can indeed love the new him. Having mercy upon ourselves after we have been ruthless, and that people can love the world despite how dark the world is, is perhaps actually what Polites was ultimately trying to tell Odysseus. He just had a lot of his personal naivete in the way.
2:23 can we just talk about how that wave just destroyed (idk how to spell his name)'s voice actor XD
Assist from Poseidon as he is getting ruthless
His music has stomped on my heart more than anyone i have ever loved. Well done Sir
Do you ever plan to make a musical about the illiad ?
I don't think ruthlessness is a quality to strive for. But I think thta is what makes this musical so great. You see how odysious is forced in directions he never wants to go. He is faced with tragedy after tragedy. And all he can cling to is getting home to his wife and son. He looses a part of himself along the way.
I agree. This should be what the idea at the end should be. Maybe Jorge might be thinking about this? I hope so because that would make much more sense
@@frednat007I think the idea is moreso you need a balance of Ruthlessness and Mercy. You can’t always give people infinite chances.
@@projectmoonsleeperagent Idk whether you read my whole convo but yes that is what we got to in the end. I have a whole thing about it on my channel anyway. Still love talking to fans of this musical. You're all so cool :))
Also. Another great choice Jay made, now that we have the Thunder Saga out, is the Scylla scene. In the original, Scylla eats 6 of his men and THEN figures out to row as fast as they could.
But I LOVE Jay made it Odysseus’ choice to sacrifice his men. Such Ruthlessness
I want to thank you for creating this amazing musical I have started to reread the Odyssey.
I really enjoy this play and the way it analyzes ruthlessness and mercy. I'm not sure if I agree with the message being that you need to embrace ruthlessness, though. The world doesn't need more negativity put into it.
Have you read Circe by Madeline Miller? Also a retelling from parts of the Odyssey. So interesting to see it from Circe's (and a female) point of view. Amazing book.
love the commitment in the last scene💀💀
You sound great singing these parts but im actually so happy youve got so many voice actors
This is awesome! I've been wondering about this question myself; the theme of ruthlessness is something I've been very interested in, and seeing your work has been a huge inspiration and joy.
WHEN IS EPIC COMING TO BROADWAY? YOU ARE REALLY TALENTED.
My heart skipped when I first heard it. Then you showed that old tiktok of you singing "Monster" and I knew I'd heard this before. That old video I liked from way back then was my first introduction but I didn't really give it a chance until much later. Pretty cool
Now this makes me want simething like this on either The Song of Achilles or the Iliad as a whole
This all makes a lot of sense! Love this video! Although I still think it would be cool if the cast of Epic made a dramatized audiobook reading for the Odyssey.
I currently have an hiperfixation on both the poem and the musical, and i can't help but costantly compare them (not in a bad way) so usually i be stopping the video with my friends and go "did you know that in the odyssey-". Idk it's so fun to me.
The message of this musical though i think is something that in the small parts of our lifes is a great morale. And a very original one tbh
When I learn most things from music and I can’t tell weather I should be nice or rude
Watching this after the vengeance saga is WILD well done! He's got ruthlessness is spades now!
In Homer's epic, Odysseus was not particularly faithful to Penelope either. He had children with Circe and Calypso. To make things even funnier, after Odysseus' death, Penelope married Odysseus and Circe's son.
Lets not forget said son with Circe accidentally unalived Odesseyus 😳
@@olivenwanderi830 He must have been quite a badass if so many monsters and gods failed to do so.
Actually those aren’t in Homer’s epic. They were written by someone else after Homer was done with the Odyssey. I remember having this discussion with the Epic discord.
Because they were written by someone else, for example Disney owning Star Wars now, it’s up to you if you see Odysseus having children with other women and dying by one of them canon.
I love that it’s possible to adapt something and still be able to make it all fit together, even though it doesn’t follow the source material word for word
Funny, because i don't think one can really take that lesson from the musical analysing it without this preconception. Frankly, Odysseus gains nothing from the moment he decides to be more "ruthless", most of his actions after that are what causes the gods arguments against Athena. The cyclops thing in remember them was pretty cool, and he could have been merciful without telling him his name and he wouldn't have any negative consequences from it. And every step of the way after he supposedly learned the lesson, he IS still pained and BEGS not to have to do it (thunderbringer). And again, Polites words save him from Killing himself.
Really, the more you think about it, the more it seems like even if Polites himself was not the smartest, at least his way of thinking is the right one. I am almost saddened by the prospect that even the main guy behind the musical gets it wrong, but eh, it's a beautiful masterpiece anyway, cheers🎉
2:04 that was wild. 😭The smile...
My favourite change you've made is having Odysseus in the fecking Odessy! In the poem he doesn't show until book 7...
Question: Does Athena still play a part in Epic after 'My Goodbye'? In the poem, she disguises him in mist and as an old man when he goes to Ithica and is a big part in the end of the poem.
I just want to say that everything about this musical impresses me....I love it so much and I'm so glad that it exists. :) It's inspiring to me as a musician that I could someday tell stories like this too. Even better that it's based on the Odyssey!`
Honestly after everything Odysseus has been through up until that point. If he let Eurylychus stop him everyone would have died for nothing
If I'm being quite honest, and perhaps slightly over-dramatic, what there is left of my sanity depends on when you'll be releasing more of EPIC's soundtrack. I've been listening to The Troy Saga and The Cyclops Saga religiously, devoting myself to master every song, despite my inability to meet EVERYONE'S range. This is me asking for more, sir.
And the fact that Odysseus never battled Eurolyochus
Thanks for this great video! Really loving your musical!
I've only heard the official stuff with the other singers so now I'm picturing Odysseus cosplaying as the other characters while I hear this
2:02 I'm going hell, that transition made me laugh so hard, dammit😅
Very recently found all of this and it's really getting me in the mood to reread the Odyssey because it's been years, but I don't recall Moly being able to summon a custom monster for brief but epic combat. Be neat to see something on that
I read The Odyssey again just a few days ago in order to compare theese. I think I got every essential change and it's purpose
Thanks to this video. For me, many details of the Epic (like the winions) did'nt make sense for me. This video clarify this doubts and difference about the Epic musical and real greek mythology.
When i found out that polities was only mencond twice i was sad becuse i really liked the charter you made him😢
This is also on clear display with Scylla. In The Oddesssy and the myths, Scyll is always paired with Charybdis. Sailing away from one put you in danger of the other. Basically, Scylla, you lose only 6 men, but make it through. Charybdis, you could lose no one or everyone. With Charybdis being absent from the song and narrative, it changes the choice.
I see the philosophies as two sides of the same coin. It's always a good idea to be kind and understanding, as you have no idea what someone is or has gone through; however you do not have to, nor should you let others use your kindness to hurt you. There in lies ruthlessness. Give people a chance, but if the overstep you are not obligated to allow continued interaction.
I thought that the whinons were foreshadowing ody stabing eury
tbh i was thinking about this, since a big part of the source book is about attaining glory and memory/remembering. i was so confused when i listened for the first time, but this video clears my doubts, as i really liked the direction it had.
my fav song is no longer you coz there's my boy tiresias doing god's work, again.
Dude, your musical helped me in my literature class
Who here listened to the vengeance saga. Easily like the best ngl.
This is late, but I have a question: Did you ever have plan for Eris to be the the musical, and what would her music sound like, I sorts imagine a carnival sounding music.
I would love to see if the epic musical made a music about king of sparta Leonidas
we were taught homers the odyssey and that version was all about hospitality (how penelope and telemachus couldnt kick the suitors out because they werent the head of the family) and how in every island one party was breaking the laws (??? idk what its called in english) of hospitality (θεσμός της φιλοξενίας)
2:17 “Sometimes killing is a must”
Are all the people who are singing the songs going to be the actors when this is performed as a musical, or is it going to be different people for the actors?
And in light of Jorge's recent short "12 lOnG YeArS" is also different
So, Polities does die in the fight with Polyphemus. I really couldn’t tell because when singing, it’s really difficult for me to distinguish between voices
in the musical, yep
My favorite change that he made is making ody NOT cheat on his wife, like, ever
for those who don't know, he has a kid with circe and then the kid goes to look for ody when he's like 20 and accidentally kills him but meets penelope and telemachus and then they meet circe and then circe's son marries penelope and telemachus marries circie lol
mythology gets weird sometimes
i like how it is very closely related to the odyssey. but still has many diffrences.
I really liked this! I was wondering about this! Thank you
Wait, so a main lesson from EPIC is supposed to be that ruthlessness is a good thing? I got the opposite read from the musical so far. Please bear in mind I am new to this as I have only just listened to all the released songs (up until the end of the Wisdom saga) and it seems to be the opposite message.
Everyone who proposes ruthlessness as the correct solution are portrayed as wrong or flat-out evil.
-Zeus and Poseidon are petty tyrants flexing their power and ego.
-Aeolus is toying with them for fun
-Polyphemus and Scylla are literal monsters with no redeeming qualities (at least none really shown)
-and the two major other characters are Circe and Athena who seem to ultimately relent on this idea. Circe lets Odysseus and his men go safely and suffers no consequences (at least up until the end of the Wisdom Saga) and Athena comes back to help Telemachus and Odysseus because she regrets what she said to him. Athena's struggle in God Games in particular seems painted as exceedingly noble and righteous. Wouldn't the more ruthless option be to let him rot with Calypso and start again with his kid, especially considering the great effort it puts her through with the other Olympians.
From Odysseus's side i see how his lack of ruthlessness can lead to later problems, but it also seems to end some, namely with Circe. He doesn't kill her or incapacitate her forever, he breaks down, speaks earnestly and honestly about what he wants, and she lets him go. I mean he ate the Moley but that didn't harm her at all. Further more from his side of the story ruthlessness seems portrayed exclusively negative while the lack of it is seen as a positive.
-eternal sunshine Polites is never really shown as "naive" or "a fool." Even after his death, he seems to be portrayed fondly as a good person and friend.
-the prophecy with the prophet showing the bloodied ruthless Odysseus is presented as a horror scene, like this is a dark future, the thing we do not want.
-and almost the minute after Odysseus becomes ruthless we get the sirens and Scylla. The sirens's deaths which PO Apollo and might have caused problems if he was stronger or pettier. He sacrifices six men to Scylla which almost immediately leads to a mutiny, and the isle of the sacred cows which wasn't his fault.
-Then Zeus shows up, he sacrifices the rest of his crew (which he clearly cares for still) and gets sent to Ogygia with Calypso for a few years, which he absolutely hates.
Like all-in-all so far, I would argue the story portrays ruthlessness as bad or at least problematic. Am I missing something here?
From the way I see it, it's not that one or the other is better, but that it's a matter of balance and knowing when to apply what. The cyclops leaned too far towards ruthlessness, and he paid for it. Though, Odysseus leaned too much towards open arms in this moment, so he paid for that too. With Circe, he applied open arms correctly and it paid off. With the infant, well, that prevented a lot of shit, so in that sense ruthlessness paid off. Though with Scylla, while some ruthlessness *was* needed because a sacrifice was necessary, he leaned too far into it by essentially tricking his own crew rather than being upfront about it and taking volunteers and/or drawing straws. You need the capacity for both, and you need to know what to apply in what situation and to what extent. The way I see it is that in Epic, Odysseus needs to learn to embrace ruthlessness more and learn how to balance it properly and it's failing to strike the balance the situation requires that causes trouble.
The best song is no doubt Survive
Sad there doesn't appear to be any sirens, but understandable why.