Whats funny is the Iron Cage was basically Purterabo forcefully switching roles with Dorn, and making him experience what the Iron Warriors had to go through during their battles, and Dorn wasn't prepared to do that but Purterabo was every but prepared to be the defender.
@@eltonjohntubola3212 both primarchs were children, its just dorn held his tongue and focused on his work when peter bitched..... seeing his father absoltuely bodied by horus kinda made him crack which is why he was so stupid in the iron cage
Perturabo was absolutely not prepared to be a defender, did you even watch the video? He outright refused the concept of a defender, he didnt want anything to defend. Dorn had to protect terra, perturabo just made a killbox with every advantage and none of the disadvantages of being a defender.
i like the theory that when Fulgrim stole some of Perturabo's life force, the wound left by him was slowly killing Perturabo and thus he needed to make a massive dreadnought like lifesupport system to survive.
I think it would be cool if they explain the "living" armour as demons he trapped within the armour plates itself or something like that, if they don't just ignore it
A short story that featured Pre-Heresy Peter Turbo is one I really enjoyed. It showed his sheer pragmatism. It was him and a force of his elite iron warriors who deployed to support a group of imperial fists under siege from Orks. After securing the ridge and eliminating the Ork artillery, they sat on the ridge and watched as the green hordes broke on the fists defenses. The entire time his sons showered scorn and criticism on the decisions and techniques of the fists from on high while Perturabo remained silent. After it was done and the fists had won Perturabo looked at his sons with disgust. “You lashed down nothing but scorn while observing one of the best defensive specialists in the imperium. Rather than observe and learn you looked down on him and degraded them despite that none of you could have done what he did this day.” And then walks away from his sons to go talk to the commanding son of Dorn. He may not have liked Dorn or the fists, but he did give credit where it was due. Disappointed in his sons that their pride was too great to learn from their rivals.
Bit of a theory: Perty ran into Vashtorr, who, even if not having the aspirations of becoming a chao god yet, fashioned a new armor perty to make him like a daemon primarch; while also acting like Guilliman's suit in keeping him alive.
I also believe Perturabo is somehow connected to Vashtorr, but I like to think that it's the former using the latter to ascend to godhood. Vashtorr is the pawn and precursor for what's to come; Perturabo is the final boss of that storyline.
@@jaega4247 I want to agree with this, but I think it's a hard sell writing wise and, if anything, it will make perty look worse rather than better since the only reason he'd kick Abaddon to the curb and take over as the leader of the chaos space marines would be to fuel his massive ego. A sort of "I told you all I was the best! But you didn't believe me!! Why didn't you believe me!?" Thing. And then he loses anyway because, you know, GW love them good Space Marines. He's still my favorite chaos Primarch though
I do love the idea that Perturabo’s daemon form is essentially just a big Iron golem looking Robot. If that is his Canon appearance it makes so much sense that he’d outright refuse to become mutated like the others and choose to become more machinelike. Hell I’d go so far as to say that the Iron warriors aren’t really CHAOS marines not in the usual sense,
@@onoezful Yes and no, from all we heard just now Pertrabo would never accept anyone above him for a longer period of time. He thinks he is better, and he wanted to be a God himself, not serve a 'lesser' one.
@@aleksanderbaraniak6208 what if he combines with vashtor? honestly Fulgrim, Angron, and Mortarion never intended to become demons. Fulgrim arguably lost himself to a demon possession, Angron had it forced on him by his brother... sadly forever denying him the death and release he wanted, and Mortarion was betrayed by his captain, and only agreed to it to save his legion.
Perturabo appearance sounds like he isn't being ascended, more like put into life support. Reminding me of Huron, where he made a pact with Chaos to save his soul in which his appereance is like a broken cyborg. Makes me wonder if Perturabo is a daemon prince or ended up as a semi-being like Kharn or Lucius.
In the warp, it could be both. Using demonic life support while he regrows his own warp infused strength. Especially with all the iron fists geneseed stuff. Could be that instead of being in debt to the chaos powers, Perturabo paid the price upfront for some extra support.
I like the idea of vashtor basically being perty in cosplay - vashtor even looks more mechanical then he does biological (like most other non war engine daemons). He probably has made some sort of deal with ruinous powers, or the forge itself, hence his continued service to chaos, and "vashtor's" current powerplays are just perty having had millenia of reflection and planning, and putting into motion the most mass efficient way of him clearing his debt
This! Yep. Perty being a Demon Prince NOW is something I don't particularly like - I like the "Dying Perturabo, encased in Life Support Armour" better than Demon Prince Perturabo. But if Vashtor became a full on equal to the other 4, then I could see Perty turning to it to save his life. Or better yet, Perty offers it his support, the Iron Warriors reassemble for some kind of Chaos Ritual that requires the power of the 4 current Chaos Gods and their Champions be used... setting up an Iron Warriors vs Everyone Else In Chaos. And it turns out that Perty has been planning for this for a few thousand years - hell, I would even be willing to make it so that it was Perty who put the idea into Vashtor's head that Vashtor could be an equal to the Chaos Gods.
@@thatotherguy8138 I know you're a Primarch superhero fan, but you do know Vashtor has existed as the master of the Forge of Souls in lore for a while now, and is far stronger than Perurabo due to that scenario? Perty is a retard with a napoleon complex. Vashtor is technically a minor chaos god.
I feel it would fit better if he became a demon primarch of vashtor as he’s a smaller chaos god of logic and mechanics so I feel it would work better but have no clue how they would fit it around peterturbo
@@Izy5981 he can't go for god hood unless he has a large psychic presence in the warp via alot of people worshipping him. Or unless he somehow recreates his own version of wagh! energy through his legion.
Personally I hope not, I like the idea of a non chaos traitor so much better. Chaos for being the big bad of the setting has become underwhelming and predictable from a reader standpoint. Besides I think it's a lot more interesting to see a traitor scavenge and struggle for survival in a hateful universe rather than just have things gifted to them by chaos. Weather or not they're actually malicious or just have different morals than the imperium. I'm also set in my belief that if there's going to be a Dark mechanicus should focus on xeno technology, AI, and other tech heresy rather than chaos. That, and primarch dreadnaught.
There's some really good parts in the Night Lords omnibus where they have to scavenge armor from either loyalists or from the corpses of their own, and the book points out which legions the parts making up the main character's armor come from, it could be what you're looking for.
agreed. It's unfortunate GW has such fun and unique concepts like the Iron Warriors and Red Corsairs and seems to go.... yes..... do that... except make them more like the black legion! lol
I feel its because GW insists on Chaos being largely just being evil because theyre evil. Hard to make that very interesting for that long. Chaos has so many ways you could make them interesting, hell, all the gods have a positive side for a reason, so why is GW fine with moral greys in basically every other faction except Chaos (who should be antagonists that carry the setting). Also 40k seems to have forgotten, gifts of chaos and such should also actually feel earned through major feats, rather than just given out whenever.
@@communisticus191 Korn in theory: The god of war, violence and anger, but also honor, courage, strength. Gifting his worshipers physical prowess beyond human limits and protection from magic. Korn in practice: Rushing into battle headfirst brains last and winning because *"F^CK YOU! YOU'RE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH P^SSY!"* Tzench in theory: The god of knowledge that should not be known and making what should have never happened become reality. Gifting magic and knowledge to it's followers but with an unknown price that will be payed at an unknown time. Tzench in practice: "That plot hole and lore inconsistency is, um, because of tzench. No I will not elaborate." "I'm so smart that I'm going to use the power of my mind to create a giant blunt instrument made out of pure intellect to beat you over the head with how inelegant I am." Nurgle in theory: The god of stagnation and decay. Not creating new life or preventing death but drawing out what already is to the point it can no longer be recognized. Gifting his followers unnatural resilience and a joyful apathy to everything. Nurgle in practice: "Hay! You want to see something gross?" Slanesh in theory: The god of pleasure pain and excess. Drugs and sex and rock-n-roll. When passion becomes obsession perfection is never enough a cultist is born. Slanesh in practice: Being ignored by GW because Slanesh is the god of sex and western censorship standards means seeing a tiddy is worse than bloody and visceral disembowelment. Chaos Undivided in in theory: Chaos in it's purest form. A combination of all of the above or showing some new aspect of chaos that isn't claimed by one of the 4. Chaos Undivided in practice: "Just put a bunch of spikes on it and call it a day. Yes, for both design and lore." Chaos Corruption in theory: "Literally every thought and idea ever had is made manifest in the warp. And it wants to return to you're head. Every unkind thought, every cruel secret, every question unanswered. And they brought friends. Nothing in the universe is safe. But is it really all that bad?" Chaos Corruption in practice: "OOooooOOOOoooooOOO cHaOOOssss OOOooooOOOOoooooOOO it's spOOOooookyyyy. And it's goooOOOoooing to get youuuuUUUUuuu. Unless you're not human ... OOOoooooOOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOO."
My expectations is he’s helping Vashtorr behind the scenes all to betray him and ascend to god hood so that he can go to Terra and try to kill the Emperor. Either that or he’s secretly the avatar of Malice and we’re finally going to see the god step into the fight.
We won't ever see Malice tbh, he's been retconned out of existence. The Sons of Malice now just follow Chaos Undivided, and Malice has been removed from the lore.
In my headcannon Lorgar should return as "born again" loyalist that was leeching "worship power" from the Imperium and his texts. Creating a new schism in the Imperium with one side going back to the extreme fanaticism and the new Imperium with like Ultramar (and the Rock) trying to rebuild the even older ideal Empire! Also Perturabo and Ferrus Manus should be revealed as "Men of Iron" aka AI that both compete to be the true Omnissiah
Lots of interesting possibilities, I don't think he'd be flattered to see them using his teachings to worship a god different from the one he was worshipping that particular week.
he was my favourite (pretty much the only legit) traitor before I saw a comment calling him a beta and Dorn an alpha. fact he's now a demon is a big part why he became BETA
I was just about to say something like this. Just to fit a narrative that works just to do it. When we run out of ideas we take other ideas that have worked and take it for a tweak
I have always preferred the idea of the iron warriors and Perturabo being more renegade space marines than chaos. Much like the red corsairs I believe making them just like the other chaos marines strips them of their uniqueness. Being anti-imperium without being pro-chaos. Heck originally the red corsairs were supposed to be pirate space marines. They are so generic now that i have seen their capture of Robute attributed to either Magnus or the black legion. I even like how more recently Iron warriors were shown to only use demons as war engines. to basically bind them to something then let them wreak havok. I'd even be cool with them leaving the warp an conquering their own corner of space.
Fun fact Dorn stole the line "drag him back in an iron cage" from Marshal Ney one of Napoleon's greatest Marshals. When Napoleon escaped from Elba and returned to France (this is just before Waterloo) Ney was charged to arrest Napoleon and Ney pledged he would return Napoleon alive in "an iron cage". When Ney finally met up with Napoleon instead of arresting him he joined Napoleon's forces.
I think it was mentioned in the Vashtor book that he and Perturabo have a deal of some kind. If Perturabo's ascension was actually a forging in the Forge of Souls this would make sense. Until his debt is clear he has to listen to Vashtor. Now the debt is usually donating to the Forge but considering this strength of the Daemon not all deals are the same. I assume they had to fix Perturabo up from what Fulgrim did, and give him actual power.
What I think would be good is retcon it so that Perty makes a deal with Vashtor in exchange for the gene seed from the Iron Cage he helps him cheat death, turning him into a kind of primarch daemon engine. Vashtor seems like the one daemon Perty would willingly work with, and Iron Warriors love daemon engines.
Yeah Vashtorr and The Iron Warriors both respect each other and he mentioned he has a deal with that Primarch. His deals involve cybernetics, augmentations and weapons. Theirs a theory that Perturabo became what he is thanks to Vashtorr and did so to keep himself from dying after what Fulgrim did to him. Even his Iron Warriors aren’t truly demons rather warp tainted Space Marines, and they make a habit of cutting off infected areas and replace them with cybernetics. In that sense Perturabo would be less of a Demon Prince and more of a Warp Tainted Cyborg with a debt to pay
Personally my favorite headcanon is that Perturabo just adopted that title and kinda plays along with it more for the reputation/ability to stop his soul from leaking and slowly killing him, caused afther the wound Fulgrum delivered - rather than being truelly a daemon primarh by choice
I think that during the time peroid that has not been writtten yet by the authors' of Warhammer 40k, Perturabo failed in his attempts to resurrect Calliphone, in his frustration he sought the powers of Chaos to complete the act. Now he has her hidden from all, maybe even himself, thus hiding the reason he turned to Chaos.
Honestly, yeah. Also, random thought. I know it has been confirmed that he is a demon prince, but his skin being described as "dead flesh" confused me. Shouldn't Perturabo as a demon prince be more invigorated? It wouldn't surpise me if it had something to do with the soul sucking thing Fulgrim did to him.
I personally like to thing he's augmented himself to be on daemon prince level while having bits of warp corruption. But I'll accept him being a daemon prince only if vashtorr has something to do with it
@@Lazrael32 That sounds metal as hell and very Perty like, to outsmart the demons rather than make deals with them. He isn't a Demon Prince in a traditional sense more like he is in essence a Demon Engine, they are his fuel but not his power.
For anyone wondering, it's because Daemon Prince Perturabo came before Primarch Perturabo. In 1988, before the game's 2nd Edition, GW released the "Realm of Chaos" series. Two books introducing Chaos to Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy, fleshing out both setting and placing the influence of Chaos in it. These books took the early Horus Heresy and laid the foundation of what would become the largest conflict of 40k. But at this time, whilst the idea of Space Marines Legion was there, GW hadn't yet come up with all 20 of them. Only the Black Legion, World Eater, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children were fleshed out, to give each of the Chaos Gods their own force (Undivided, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh). However, Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are present in the first book (Slaves to Darkness) and are described as renegades in service of Chaos. At the time, he wasn't a Primarch, simply a Daemon Prince. When 2nd Edition came around and 4 more Traitor Legions were added, GW used the name Perturabo and the Iron Warriors (probably because it sounded cool). Then, his character was fleshed out in the novels, creating the contradiction we have here.
Late to the party, but this. Nobody cared that Perturabo was a Daemon Prince because his distaste for Chaotic mutation and sorcery and daemons was written into the lore many years AFTER the fact that he is a daemon prince. As good as the HH series is at times, it sometimes feels like they weren't entirely written with the established lore of the grim dark future in mind.
Perturabo may be one of if not the only character in this universe who makes his superiority, while others would see as pride, to be an absolute fact. For him to become and being his own man after becoming a Daemon while his chaos brothers before him became pawns, all to essentially make a point, is beyond all levels of flexing and badassery. It is as if his mission is to become a living embodiment, a message to the galaxy even, of something along the lines of "The galaxy would be a much better place if we weren't getting in our own way." In which case, he would more than likely be right given how everything bad that is happening and has ever happened in their universe is pretty much their own fault in one way or another. I swear if Perturabo ever ends up killing Lucious The Eternal and not be affected by his curse, than that may just end up being one of the greatest moments in 40k history.
I honestly wonder if Perty and the Necrons will will have some sort of interaction considering they're made of living metal and all that. Vashtor seemed to help a lot in that regard though. Either way, more Perty content is always welcome.
Great video! Love Perturabo, hope we see more about him in the future! I would love to have more dark mechanicum, iron warriors, and Vashtor being chaos besties.
I think he will be. It'd be cool if vashtor's end would come not at the emperium or chaos but instead a pissed off Perturabo that he tryed to enslave. That or they are going to go through with him as the 6th chaos god.
I like the idea of Pertrabo ascending to deamonhood to then encase himself in a deamon engine, I think it would be fitting. Deamons enhabit engins to free themselves from warp dependence, a weakness Pertrabo knows all too well from his bout with Angeron. Forging a deamon dread to harness warp power by his own means would alleviate that problem.
You have been my introduction and main teacher of all things warhammer, love the work you pour into these vids and look forward to every upload. Wouldnt mind seeing some more grimdark storytime
As an iron warriors fan boy, I really hope they do justice to my boi peter turbo and dont just make him become a demon lord out of some dues ex machina. I honestly hope they retcon this in a way we have a primarch that chose heresy not to serve chaos but chose to rebel because screw you.
How I the fuck did you manage to put another amazing video out so quickly?! You're a God Emperor yourself Wes! :D Thanks for all the dedication you put into educating us on this incredibly detailed universe! :)
I don't know why people are confused about this. Perturabo thought he already was a perfect logical war machine and always sought more power in material *things* rather than himself or his men. In his mind he reached his "peak" long ago, and all he could to was find new toys. His latest fascination was using the warp as a *thing* that can be harnessed. His fate is one of the most obvious paths to Chaos lol.
I love Perturabo, and your inclination of him and Vashtor in some way interacting makes so much sense. His demonic Ascension is a good choice, conducted through a ritualistic sacrifice of the gene-seed of his sworn rival and counterpart while also rebuking the demonic lords and refusing to utilize their forces and magics is a great character aspect. That said? I’m sticking with the whole ‘Demon made of Living-Metal that looks like a really buff Titan’ versus the ‘dredged corpse and hissing cornrows’ look!
I would love a long form video that covers all the primarchs and their current status in the lore. I’m still new to 40k but I’m loving all your videos.
I was surprised to learn that iron warriors got rid of mutation cause I remember seeing pics online of a comic where the iron warriors clearly having mutations with one having a ram’s face and horns.
Doubt that Pertorabo is a demon Prince. More like a Primarch who built himself the world's chonkiest Terminator/Dreadnought hybrid due to the prank that Fulgrim did 😂
I like the theory, that he isn't a demon, rather he build a kind of life support system around himself that keeps him alive due to the wound Fulgrim gave him, which would also explain why he is as sane as he is.
I have to disagree. Warhammer doesn't do retcons well. Because it doesn't do retcons. It does "Ahh, but are you _sure_ that's how it happened? Is the _narrator_ even sure? Was that data corrupted over time? Is someone lying?"
Seeing all of this siege of terra and horus heresy storylines made me want a "which books to read for what series" video. There are TONS of books to read from, and it's all over the place. I think that specially now that people should hopefully be joining the fandom with the 10th edition out, space marine 2 coming out soon, and tacticus and boltgun also on the market, you should use this oportunity to make a video on which books to read to follow which series, like xenos series, imperial guard series, or all of this primarch drama series! I for one am reading gaunts ghosts for a while now but i'm still very very lost.
just read whatever as entertainment. if you just want a lore thing for why something is something just read the wiki instead. you don't need to speedrun the entertainment part, it's not like it's like actual education (or fully in sync with other books).
I have my own theory, but I’ll admit it’s really more wishful thinking than anything else. I think that Perturabo isn’t a Daemon Primarch, but rather a Daemonhost. He used the gene seed to summon a powerful daemon from the Warp, then bound it into himself in order to access its power, stating in control through force of will. I feel it explains how a Chaos-hating individual could gain daemonic power, since most Daemon Princes had to show a fanatical level of devotion to achieve their status.
While this is something of a personal take I always thought of Perty taking the Daemon makeover was something he did out of necessity after suffering from, let's face it, a lot of damage. Be it from Fulgrim stealing some of his life, actual battle wounds during the siege of Terra, or even after the siege from who knows how many warp entities that probably thought "here's my chance to devour a very powerful weakened soul". It seems like something he'd do begrudgingly more than willingly and to top it all of probably on his own terms in his own way. It's why I kind of like the idea of him being depicted of a giant made out of daemonic metal. Rather than go through some ascension ritual where he'd turn physically into a Daemon Primarch he said "screw this I'll do it my own way" and found a way to forcefully conduct the ritual using technology fused with some warp smithing. He is Petty Perty after all and there's no way he'll accept becoming a weakened shell of what he used to be even if it meant giving himself into Chaos.
Perturabo is the Frank Grimes of Warhammer. And Dorn is his Homer Simpson. Perturabo is Practical. And it _aught to_ get him success. But this is 40K, and the Chaos gods are literally out to get him. So he gets Envious. Meanwhile the autistic blockhead in yellow with the melee obsession gets all the glory. And Perturabo snaps. "What's this? Daemons? Oh, I don't need a Gellar field, because _I'm Rogal Do-"_ ZZAP!
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! I could also see Perturobo's apotheosis being him managing to pay Vashtor's price. From the way GW has set up Vash as a demonic arms merchant/loan shark and the enslavement comes from not being able to fulfill your own end of the contract, but unlike a lot of the others he let's simple math do his work for him and doesn't double deal to ensure that his clients default makes him likely the best god to deal with for someone like the lord of iron.
Wasn't it that Dorn's stubborn refusal of the Codex Astartes rule to break his Legion into Chapters that lead him to bring them to that suicidal attack? I kmow I heard that somewhere.
@@Orgruk No, not from TTS. Dorn's motivations are unclear and not canon anywhere. There are many interpretations of events, and the narrative in this video is just another yet unflattering interpretation. Recent lore regarding Dorn's mind being essentially broken at the hands of Khorne should be proof enough that Dorn does not break. So no, I refuse to believe he had a tantrum and suddenly became st"pid enough to fall for every single one of Turbo's traps. Why Dorn did what he did will depend on who you ask, but 'he just got mad bro' is not a good enough explanation. If a thousand years of Khorne whispering into his ear to the point of losing all memory isn't enough to even remotely faze Dorn, then I reject the idea that he just had a temper tantrum when it came to Turbo. It is illogical. I mean look how bias this video was. Starts by making claims about how non emotional and perfectly logical Turbo is, then admits Turbo's failures were emotional in nature. Dorn is pompous? Is this spoken from the perspective of Turbo? Or the narrator?
I would love a standoff between the csm Iron Warriors led by Peter Turbo and the Tyranids. Two brute forces facing off against each other sounds so amazing
Vashtor could create weapons for Perturabo and his legion before they fight against the galaxy again. It'd be cool to see Perturabo fight demon Fulgrim.
A year late, but it feels like Perturabo would be using the Warp to get power rather than Chaos. We don't have a non-Chaos traitor primarch that is this warp-infused, but given Corvus Corax going wild in the Warp, it's entirely possible that Perturabo is a traitor Warp primarch not serving any of the Four Gods. If he would work with any daemons, they would most likely be non-Chaos ones. With the introduction of Vashtorr, there seems to be even more room for this kind of thing too
Of all the character trajectories that throw me for a loop, it's Perturabo. From brilliant but petulant redditor who'd always blame someone else for any of his shortcomings and would look for any excuse to decimate his sons, to an actual leader capable of taking criticsm on the chin and fostering growth in his sons. It is wild that falling to the forces of chaos seems to have made Perturabo more compentent when everyone else got worse from it.
18:19 is it me but too many of the primarchs are described as being giants amoung them, initially mangus the red was called a giant and I thought that meant he was 9-12 feet tall. and I thought rus and other primarchs was just normal space marine height or just a bit taller, but now it seems retconed that all of them were all a foot or two taller then regular marines who themselves are 7-8-9 feet in armor. if russ is 8-9 feet and magnus 10-12 a person looking at them is going to see both as giants. And apparently vulkan was the tallest, so the giant characteristic is even less magnus, if anything he is just above average and ugly. "Oh look a room of giants, the largest is pitch black and the one with red hair is realy ugly"
Bricky's video about the legions was pretty spot on about Perturabo and the Iron Warriors. "Perturabo and the Iron Warriors do not serve the Chaos Gods because they like them, they serve them because f*** you!" They use Chaos for their ends and Chaos uses them in turn, that's it.
🔴❤️ Khorne Magic: Metal (Iron=Blood)! Perturabo the Demon Primarch of Khorne and his Iron Warriors: just like living armor leaking hot iron generated by their own boiling blood! (And most terrifyingly, despite their rage their minds are intact) According to logic, how would Perturabo seal his pact with Khorne, destroying first Monarchia and then Olympia? Can he become a master of destructive Metal Magic, then creating bloodthirsty Sorcerers of Khorne in his army? Perfect example is the magic of Azariah Kyras as the Daemon Prince of Khorne! Not Kharn but Kroeger the Betrayer!
Didnt perturabo sustain a wound by fulgrim in angel exterminatus that caused him a soul leak anyway ? And he had little choice but to ascend to avoid slowly dying ? Or is that « Reddit » shaky lore ? I also appreciated Perturabo in his spite for the loss of control of his erstwhile brothers. And yeah, Vashtorr makes the perfect Daemonic Partner for Perty. Engine oriented, no double dealings, frank and upfront. The logical step for me would be perturabo wrenching the title of warmaster from Abbaddon, but well, lets see if GW goes with this Avenue of thinking ;)
Fulgrim mortally wounded him and he had to become a daemon. I don't remember what book it was but Fulgrim wanted daemonhood by sacrificing Perturabo, managed only to wound him.
I have a theory about Perturabo. The new god and Perturabo of them will work together to stop the Tyranids then they change their focus to the other gods and the Emperor of Mankind.
00:24:00 "Games Workshop is really good with how they handle retcons". But that doesn't seem to stop them doing some major ones. As I recall, the first time they did the 13th black crusade, Eldrad Ulthran's soul ended up trapped in eternal conflict inside Abaddon's planet killer ship to disempower it. And then all of a sudden he was alive and well and creating the Eldar god of death while Abaddon had a 2nd attempt at the 13th black crusade. I know they wanted to use the number 13 for the devastating effect of the Cicatrix Maledictum (spellcheck pls), but they could have just made it the 14th black crusade and had Ynnead resurrect Eldrad instead of pretending round one never happened. p.s. I was less involved with 40k by this point, so I feel free to fact check me :)
Obviously a lot of iron warrior fans are pissed at the prospect of Demon Perty, calling for a vashtor retcon or smth, but i personally think that him being turned into a full fledged demon is much more interesting a development that the dreadnought theory. Each chaos Primark has been greviously humbled in their rise to power, forced to contend with the consequence of their treachery with the most ironic outcomes. Perturabo being stuck at eternam within the being of a consept he abore deeply would fuel his eternal resentment. He'd be a chaos demon of pure spite, willing to make the entire gamaxy pay for his fate. Because in the end he's still a big baby throwing a tantrum 🤗
The Iron Cage is pure character assignation of Rogal Dorn. I think Dorn would have thought logically and just use orbital bombardment until a smoking crater just existed in that whole area, if that did not work, exterminatus
I'm still fairly new to the 40k lore. If someone reads this can you explain why the IPs wouldn't just forsake the whole siege and just use a planet destroying weapon to just wipe them out altogether? Cuz aren't there weapons that can literally crack a planet in half in 40k? Or do you guys think it was literally just a narrative thing? Cuz obviously you want them to have a big showdown. Wes it would be so awesome if you could answer this, but I'll be happy with anyone knowledgeable.
Wes, I'm a huge fan, I've watched every video and don't plan on stopping, but I have one criticism. I'm begging you; stop saying "ascended to demon-hood" you can't ascend to something beneath you. The lord of iron stooped to their level and became something less than human. It makes me sick everytime I hear it, and you said it a lot this video. Other wise, great work here. Keep it up.
I’m kinda new to warhammer and with your last bit, I’m really curious at what retcons GW has done to characters and factions, or like the top 10 retcons/controversial changes to the lore. I think that’d be a cool video
In the past it was always said Dorn knew it to be a trap but walked into it wilfully since he and his Legion were against the division into Chapters (as were Leman Russ and Vulkan for that matter). He knew his Sons need to go through the pain glove experience themselves in order to be reborn as a new force. Thus, the Iron Cage.
It should noted that Iron Warrior units and installations have been noted for using Warp powered weapons batteries. But then got eaten by Tyranids. But I am with Majorkill on this and I don't think Perturabo is Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. Unless Vashtorr does become a 5th Chaos Gods and then ascended Perturabo from the future or something. No I think the idea that his ascension is lie spread by Perturabo to prevent others from thinking he is weak. Also that he he is still dying from Fulgrim attempt on his life. Not to mention we have never heard of Daemon Prince of anyone but Nurgle who have necrotic and dying flesh. It would explain is lack of madness and the fact he wanted to be a God in his own right and not a slave to the pantheon.
Personally, no I don't like perty is a daemon. He was always that one person among the traitors that you could point to and say that he has legit motivations and he did everything he did on his own because that's what he wanted to do. I liked having the one rationalish and logical character among a bunch of emotional mustache twirling villains. But most of all, after reading all of the novels so far for horus heresy and 40k, I don't want to see the character of perterabo inevitably fall into this obvious trap of thinking you can apply order to chaos, because from everything we learn about chaos over the years, you simply can't do that. You can gain it's benefits without succumbing to its pitfalls and worship. And let's not forget you absolutely have to give to gain with chaos. That gene seed won't be the last thing they expect from him and it just seems like he is too intelligent not to realize all this. But most of all and I think most importantly, he is not someone to give up control of himself or anything he thinks of as his. Which as we know just isn't possible with chaos. Thats not to say I don't think they will write it in a way that goes the direction you're saying, but I still don't like it. I feel like I'm balancing those lines you cited with novels worth of info about him and the scales don't balance. Again not to say you're not right, it seems you are. I just don't like it
@ WesHammer, sir, @ 16:01 here Fulgrim is said to have tricked Perturabo and here at 16:17 it is said that these things will not happen to him (him being Perturablo). This order of events is not logical.
Perty being a demon is about as lame as Fulgrim getting out of the Dorian grey treatment off screen.... really at all...thought that would have been a great story line... even make it reference the novel several times... anyway, perty daemon prince = lame.
19:35 Well caught 👏 This is something that would've bugged me too in the sense of right being right! Appreciate it. But also the understanding and respectful way you pointed it out. Thank you. PS! Glad to hear someone else also appreciate and give credit to Games Workshop ability to keep and maintain a relatively coherent and sensible overarching plotline!
I rather like the theory where perti has been dying cause of what fulgrim has done. He has been doing as much as he could to slow down his death/stop it by using machines, that's why he is now a large hunk of steel with a necrotic face.
i really do like how Daemon Perturabo is described with his games with Honsou, while corrupted, he's obviously still in control of himself and "sane" for what he is. he's not enraptured in rage, or a puppet on strings, or a pleasure fiend... he's still The Father of His Sons, he still teaches them, even if the lessons may be lethal. what i REALLY REALLY HOPE FOR, is perurabo comes back in 10th edition and he gets connections to vashtor that doesnt mean i want perty to be a genaric "chaos evil guy" even if he becomes vashtor's champion... no... no i want vashtor and perty to work AGAINST the other 4 in the great game, they don't steal or bargain for power, they EARN it, they FIND it, they don't sacrifice their freedoms for quick uncontrollable power, they get the good stuff.
I don't like the fact that Perturabo became a daemon, but I would love to see how gw will eventually justify that choice and then I will probably really like the new daemon peter turbo, they released some great lore recently and i'm kinda optmistic about the future lore for these ancient characters returning to the setting
Vashtorr YES! Honestly, I cannot stand that he and Abaddon are working together in the forefront and Perty is in the back(as ALWAYS) haha. Kinda makes sense, in a meta perspective. He STILL isn't getting the recognition he craves. But it does make a ton of sense that he and the Arkhifane(sp.?) would be working together with Perturabo's love of technology and Vashtorr being the literal Daemon of Technology. I can't wait to see the model GW comes up with when Perty comes back to the setting. Soon......
There are other daemons/forces in the warp other than the chaos Gods, that could be a interesting angle, kind of making them more a rogue legion rather than a chaos one and I think this would be a fresh perspective instead of people saying he must be Either A or B, why not add a C or D option.
Thank you Into the AM for these Amazing Graphic Tees. Get yours today and get 10% off site-wide when you use this link intotheam.com/weshammer
Peter Turbo is spite incarnated!
What about Ferrus manus hammer? I though that was teh explaination.
plz make a vid about the lucifer black
Word
can you make a vid about the warhammer books, i really wanna start reading, but i have no idea where tondtart
Perturabo went traitor just so he could fight Dorn. That's it. That's the tweet.
And no one without siblings will ever understand that that’s a legitimate reason 😂
I'm glad Dorn is dead.
And because he trusted horis
Peter Turbo is spite incarnated!
Anything confirmed by GW or again pure "logical assessment"?
Whats funny is the Iron Cage was basically Purterabo forcefully switching roles with Dorn, and making him experience what the Iron Warriors had to go through during their battles, and Dorn wasn't prepared to do that but Purterabo was every but prepared to be the defender.
That's genius , I never saw it that way
Dorn was prepared to do that. The Iron Cage was a penance for the legions guilt. The IF had no intention of retreating.
@@mogwaiman6048which was fucking dumb. Dorn was clouded by his anger.
@@eltonjohntubola3212 both primarchs were children, its just dorn held his tongue and focused on his work when peter bitched..... seeing his father absoltuely bodied by horus kinda made him crack which is why he was so stupid in the iron cage
Perturabo was absolutely not prepared to be a defender, did you even watch the video? He outright refused the concept of a defender, he didnt want anything to defend.
Dorn had to protect terra, perturabo just made a killbox with every advantage and none of the disadvantages of being a defender.
Perterabo always seemed like he'd infect himself with the Obliterator virus as a middle finger to the Chaos Gods
Considering how he turned out, he basically did.
Perturbado,the middle fingerin’est motha fucka in 40K. Is there anyone that he doesn’t have an axe to grind with at this point?
I think he the one who created the virus to save himself because obliteratos eat the machine spirit of weapons so he can keep himself alive
I always got 'No. Fuck you." Vibes from Perty.
That would be interesting to see
i like the theory that when Fulgrim stole some of Perturabo's life force, the wound left by him was slowly killing Perturabo and thus he needed to make a massive dreadnought like lifesupport system to survive.
I agree with you
yep. that is my head canon no matter what GW does.
“Iron within and bleed.” - imperial fist
@@Lazrael32same
I think it would be cool if they explain the "living" armour as demons he trapped within the armour plates itself or something like that, if they don't just ignore it
A short story that featured Pre-Heresy Peter Turbo is one I really enjoyed. It showed his sheer pragmatism. It was him and a force of his elite iron warriors who deployed to support a group of imperial fists under siege from Orks. After securing the ridge and eliminating the Ork artillery, they sat on the ridge and watched as the green hordes broke on the fists defenses. The entire time his sons showered scorn and criticism on the decisions and techniques of the fists from on high while Perturabo remained silent. After it was done and the fists had won Perturabo looked at his sons with disgust. “You lashed down nothing but scorn while observing one of the best defensive specialists in the imperium. Rather than observe and learn you looked down on him and degraded them despite that none of you could have done what he did this day.” And then walks away from his sons to go talk to the commanding son of Dorn.
He may not have liked Dorn or the fists, but he did give credit where it was due. Disappointed in his sons that their pride was too great to learn from their rivals.
I think I remember that from an audio drama called "Stone and Iron." Although I remembered that he kinda insult the Imperial Fist captain he saved.
Do you guys know what this is from it sounds cool
Which is funny since he did the same thing by scorning them and not acknowledging they come from his genes so they get it from him.
Bit of a theory: Perty ran into Vashtorr, who, even if not having the aspirations of becoming a chao god yet, fashioned a new armor perty to make him like a daemon primarch; while also acting like Guilliman's suit in keeping him alive.
I think that makes more sense than him somehow becoming a daemon prince without the help of a chaos god
So is vashtorr like belakorr now?
@@Tehguuuiyes
I also believe Perturabo is somehow connected to Vashtorr, but I like to think that it's the former using the latter to ascend to godhood. Vashtorr is the pawn and precursor for what's to come; Perturabo is the final boss of that storyline.
@@jaega4247 I want to agree with this, but I think it's a hard sell writing wise and, if anything, it will make perty look worse rather than better since the only reason he'd kick Abaddon to the curb and take over as the leader of the chaos space marines would be to fuel his massive ego. A sort of "I told you all I was the best! But you didn't believe me!! Why didn't you believe me!?" Thing. And then he loses anyway because, you know, GW love them good Space Marines.
He's still my favorite chaos Primarch though
I do love the idea that Perturabo’s daemon form is essentially just a big Iron golem looking Robot. If that is his Canon appearance it makes so much sense that he’d outright refuse to become mutated like the others and choose to become more machinelike.
Hell I’d go so far as to say that the Iron warriors aren’t really CHAOS marines not in the usual sense,
You think becoming a metal golden is not mutating? I get what you mean just joking cos of how you said it
I could see Peter turbo being a servant to Vashtorr
@@onoezful Yes and no, from all we heard just now Pertrabo would never accept anyone above him for a longer period of time. He thinks he is better, and he wanted to be a God himself, not serve a 'lesser' one.
@@aleksanderbaraniak6208 what if he combines with vashtor? honestly Fulgrim, Angron, and Mortarion never intended to become demons. Fulgrim arguably lost himself to a demon possession, Angron had it forced on him by his brother... sadly forever denying him the death and release he wanted, and Mortarion was betrayed by his captain, and only agreed to it to save his legion.
It would probably be more like partners with vashtor having some sort of leverage that perturabo works around.
Perturabo appearance sounds like he isn't being ascended, more like put into life support. Reminding me of Huron, where he made a pact with Chaos to save his soul in which his appereance is like a broken cyborg. Makes me wonder if Perturabo is a daemon prince or ended up as a semi-being like Kharn or Lucius.
In the warp, it could be both. Using demonic life support while he regrows his own warp infused strength. Especially with all the iron fists geneseed stuff. Could be that instead of being in debt to the chaos powers, Perturabo paid the price upfront for some extra support.
Could also potentially be a dreadnought like deal
If Vashtor ever becomes a 5th player in the great game, Perty would be the best candidate for daemon prince for it
Vashtor would be the only chaos god that Perty would would be willing to follow. Both view logic as the best way to work in the warp.
I like the idea of vashtor basically being perty in cosplay - vashtor even looks more mechanical then he does biological (like most other non war engine daemons). He probably has made some sort of deal with ruinous powers, or the forge itself, hence his continued service to chaos, and "vashtor's" current powerplays are just perty having had millenia of reflection and planning, and putting into motion the most mass efficient way of him clearing his debt
This! Yep.
Perty being a Demon Prince NOW is something I don't particularly like - I like the "Dying Perturabo, encased in Life Support Armour" better than Demon Prince Perturabo. But if Vashtor became a full on equal to the other 4, then I could see Perty turning to it to save his life.
Or better yet, Perty offers it his support, the Iron Warriors reassemble for some kind of Chaos Ritual that requires the power of the 4 current Chaos Gods and their Champions be used... setting up an Iron Warriors vs Everyone Else In Chaos. And it turns out that Perty has been planning for this for a few thousand years - hell, I would even be willing to make it so that it was Perty who put the idea into Vashtor's head that Vashtor could be an equal to the Chaos Gods.
@@thatotherguy8138 I know you're a Primarch superhero fan, but you do know Vashtor has existed as the master of the Forge of Souls in lore for a while now, and is far stronger than Perurabo due to that scenario? Perty is a retard with a napoleon complex. Vashtor is technically a minor chaos god.
the ultimate plot twist would be if Perturabo became the fifth, and Vashtorr is his firstdaemon prince
I feel it would fit better if he became a demon primarch of vashtor as he’s a smaller chaos god of logic and mechanics so I feel it would work better but have no clue how they would fit it around peterturbo
i think they might do that in the future, but my theory is that Perty is going for Godhood, like the emporer
@@Izy5981 he can't go for god hood unless he has a large psychic presence in the warp via alot of people worshipping him. Or unless he somehow recreates his own version of wagh! energy through his legion.
Perhaps it's more of an uneasy alliance he established with Vashtorr out of necessity in order to stay alive.
Vashtorr is a Daemon, not a Chaos God
He's below Malice
I think if Vashtor isn’t a chaos god his relationship with Perturabo would be more equitable. More like a boss than a master
Personally I hope not, I like the idea of a non chaos traitor so much better. Chaos for being the big bad of the setting has become underwhelming and predictable from a reader standpoint. Besides I think it's a lot more interesting to see a traitor scavenge and struggle for survival in a hateful universe rather than just have things gifted to them by chaos. Weather or not they're actually malicious or just have different morals than the imperium. I'm also set in my belief that if there's going to be a Dark mechanicus should focus on xeno technology, AI, and other tech heresy rather than chaos.
That, and primarch dreadnaught.
There's some really good parts in the Night Lords omnibus where they have to scavenge armor from either loyalists or from the corpses of their own, and the book points out which legions the parts making up the main character's armor come from, it could be what you're looking for.
agreed. It's unfortunate GW has such fun and unique concepts like the Iron Warriors and Red Corsairs and seems to go.... yes..... do that... except make them more like the black legion! lol
@@blender11th That exact book is why I brought this up.
I feel its because GW insists on Chaos being largely just being evil because theyre evil. Hard to make that very interesting for that long. Chaos has so many ways you could make them interesting, hell, all the gods have a positive side for a reason, so why is GW fine with moral greys in basically every other faction except Chaos (who should be antagonists that carry the setting). Also 40k seems to have forgotten, gifts of chaos and such should also actually feel earned through major feats, rather than just given out whenever.
@@communisticus191 Korn in theory: The god of war, violence and anger, but also honor, courage, strength. Gifting his worshipers physical prowess beyond human limits and protection from magic.
Korn in practice: Rushing into battle headfirst brains last and winning because *"F^CK YOU! YOU'RE NOT ANGRY ENOUGH P^SSY!"*
Tzench in theory: The god of knowledge that should not be known and making what should have never happened become reality. Gifting magic and knowledge to it's followers but with an unknown price that will be payed at an unknown time.
Tzench in practice: "That plot hole and lore inconsistency is, um, because of tzench. No I will not elaborate." "I'm so smart that I'm going to use the power of my mind to create a giant blunt instrument made out of pure intellect to beat you over the head with how inelegant I am."
Nurgle in theory: The god of stagnation and decay. Not creating new life or preventing death but drawing out what already is to the point it can no longer be recognized. Gifting his followers unnatural resilience and a joyful apathy to everything.
Nurgle in practice: "Hay! You want to see something gross?"
Slanesh in theory: The god of pleasure pain and excess. Drugs and sex and rock-n-roll. When passion becomes obsession perfection is never enough a cultist is born.
Slanesh in practice: Being ignored by GW because Slanesh is the god of sex and western censorship standards means seeing a tiddy is worse than bloody and visceral disembowelment.
Chaos Undivided in in theory: Chaos in it's purest form. A combination of all of the above or showing some new aspect of chaos that isn't claimed by one of the 4.
Chaos Undivided in practice: "Just put a bunch of spikes on it and call it a day. Yes, for both design and lore."
Chaos Corruption in theory: "Literally every thought and idea ever had is made manifest in the warp. And it wants to return to you're head. Every unkind thought, every cruel secret, every question unanswered. And they brought friends. Nothing in the universe is safe. But is it really all that bad?"
Chaos Corruption in practice: "OOooooOOOOoooooOOO cHaOOOssss OOOooooOOOOoooooOOO it's spOOOooookyyyy. And it's goooOOOoooing to get youuuuUUUUuuu. Unless you're not human ... OOOoooooOOOOOooooOOOOoooooOOO."
My expectations is he’s helping Vashtorr behind the scenes all to betray him and ascend to god hood so that he can go to Terra and try to kill the Emperor. Either that or he’s secretly the avatar of Malice and we’re finally going to see the god step into the fight.
We won't ever see Malice tbh, he's been retconned out of existence. The Sons of Malice now just follow Chaos Undivided, and Malice has been removed from the lore.
@@SpiritStoneWarrior94-yx3gsThat's so stupid, Malice was literally ANTI-CHAOS, why would they follow CHAOS UNDIVIDED?
@@DrakusLuthos Malice is god of all destruction, He is not the chaos god of being anti-chaos
We'll never ever see anything Malal for copyright reasons.
I would personally LOVE to see Lorgar coming back, to see how he thinks of the Imperium using his old texts as the foundations of their religion….
Well, if Lorgar returns, then Corvus is not far behind… so Lorgar for next return!!
In my headcannon Lorgar should return as "born again" loyalist that was leeching "worship power" from the Imperium and his texts. Creating a new schism in the Imperium with one side going back to the extreme fanaticism and the new Imperium with like Ultramar (and the Rock) trying to rebuild the even older ideal Empire! Also Perturabo and Ferrus Manus should be revealed as "Men of Iron" aka AI that both compete to be the true Omnissiah
@@Zeliek wat
Lots of interesting possibilities, I don't think he'd be flattered to see them using his teachings to worship a god different from the one he was worshipping that particular week.
I think he already know by some warp magic. I think that's to what he jerks for millenias.
Simple answer, Peter Turbo had to become a Daemon because the writers said so.
I didn't want to.
he was my favourite (pretty much the only legit) traitor before I saw a comment calling him a beta and Dorn an alpha. fact he's now a demon is a big part why he became BETA
@@maximusd26 You let some neckbeard utilizing such cringe terms with full seriousness change your mind? Ehhh, ironic.
@@cjthebeesknees it was too late, he portrayed Dorn as a chad and Peter Turbo as a soyboy, the debate was already over
I was just about to say something like this. Just to fit a narrative that works just to do it. When we run out of ideas we take other ideas that have worked and take it for a tweak
I have always preferred the idea of the iron warriors and Perturabo being more renegade space marines than chaos. Much like the red corsairs I believe making them just like the other chaos marines strips them of their uniqueness. Being anti-imperium without being pro-chaos. Heck originally the red corsairs were supposed to be pirate space marines. They are so generic now that i have seen their capture of Robute attributed to either Magnus or the black legion. I even like how more recently Iron warriors were shown to only use demons as war engines. to basically bind them to something then let them wreak havok. I'd even be cool with them leaving the warp an conquering their own corner of space.
Fun fact Dorn stole the line "drag him back in an iron cage" from Marshal Ney one of Napoleon's greatest Marshals. When Napoleon escaped from Elba and returned to France (this is just before Waterloo) Ney was charged to arrest Napoleon and Ney pledged he would return Napoleon alive in "an iron cage". When Ney finally met up with Napoleon instead of arresting him he joined Napoleon's forces.
I think it was mentioned in the Vashtor book that he and Perturabo have a deal of some kind. If Perturabo's ascension was actually a forging in the Forge of Souls this would make sense. Until his debt is clear he has to listen to Vashtor. Now the debt is usually donating to the Forge but considering this strength of the Daemon not all deals are the same. I assume they had to fix Perturabo up from what Fulgrim did, and give him actual power.
What I think would be good is retcon it so that Perty makes a deal with Vashtor in exchange for the gene seed from the Iron Cage he helps him cheat death, turning him into a kind of primarch daemon engine. Vashtor seems like the one daemon Perty would willingly work with, and Iron Warriors love daemon engines.
Yeah Vashtorr and The Iron Warriors both respect each other and he mentioned he has a deal with that Primarch. His deals involve cybernetics, augmentations and weapons. Theirs a theory that Perturabo became what he is thanks to Vashtorr and did so to keep himself from dying after what Fulgrim did to him. Even his Iron Warriors aren’t truly demons rather warp tainted Space Marines, and they make a habit of cutting off infected areas and replace them with cybernetics. In that sense Perturabo would be less of a Demon Prince and more of a Warp Tainted Cyborg with a debt to pay
Personally my favorite headcanon is that Perturabo just adopted that title and kinda plays along with it more for the reputation/ability to stop his soul from leaking and slowly killing him, caused afther the wound Fulgrum delivered - rather than being truelly a daemon primarh by choice
Doubt it. I like to think he currently resides in some massive primarch sized dreadnought.
I think that during the time peroid that has not been writtten yet by the authors' of Warhammer 40k, Perturabo failed in his attempts to resurrect Calliphone, in his frustration he sought the powers of Chaos to complete the act. Now he has her hidden from all, maybe even himself, thus hiding the reason he turned to Chaos.
I find it interesting that demon perty looks...basically like himself? From the description, its mostly his armor that is twisted
It's all fan art. I don't think GW has released an actual picture of what he looks like
@@weshammer I meant the description in the shortstory. It basically just paints him as corpse white, with dark eyes and cybernetic cabling.
Fan art.
@@mogwaiman6048 the story description
Honestly, yeah.
Also, random thought. I know it has been confirmed that he is a demon prince, but his skin being described as "dead flesh" confused me. Shouldn't Perturabo as a demon prince be more invigorated? It wouldn't surpise me if it had something to do with the soul sucking thing Fulgrim did to him.
I personally like to thing he's augmented himself to be on daemon prince level while having bits of warp corruption. But I'll accept him being a daemon prince only if vashtorr has something to do with it
What if he designed his armor to absorb and funnel the corruption? Like he is wearing a suit of demon enslaved armor?
@@Lazrael32 that's a good theory, and it'd fit with the whole "using chaos but not failing to it" thing he's got
@@Lazrael32 That sounds metal as hell and very Perty like, to outsmart the demons rather than make deals with them. He isn't a Demon Prince in a traditional sense more like he is in essence a Demon Engine, they are his fuel but not his power.
My favourite part is when Perturabo said "it's perto time" and demonstrated his T-posing skills in front of the funny not so alive emperor
*"IT'S TURBO TIME!!!"*
Only reason I prefer non-daemon Perturabo is because a chaos primarch dreadnaught sounds really cool
For anyone wondering, it's because Daemon Prince Perturabo came before Primarch Perturabo.
In 1988, before the game's 2nd Edition, GW released the "Realm of Chaos" series. Two books introducing Chaos to Warhammer 40k and Warhammer Fantasy, fleshing out both setting and placing the influence of Chaos in it. These books took the early Horus Heresy and laid the foundation of what would become the largest conflict of 40k.
But at this time, whilst the idea of Space Marines Legion was there, GW hadn't yet come up with all 20 of them. Only the Black Legion, World Eater, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children were fleshed out, to give each of the Chaos Gods their own force (Undivided, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh).
However, Perturabo and the Iron Warriors are present in the first book (Slaves to Darkness) and are described as renegades in service of Chaos. At the time, he wasn't a Primarch, simply a Daemon Prince.
When 2nd Edition came around and 4 more Traitor Legions were added, GW used the name Perturabo and the Iron Warriors (probably because it sounded cool). Then, his character was fleshed out in the novels, creating the contradiction we have here.
Late to the party, but this.
Nobody cared that Perturabo was a Daemon Prince because his distaste for Chaotic mutation and sorcery and daemons was written into the lore many years AFTER the fact that he is a daemon prince.
As good as the HH series is at times, it sometimes feels like they weren't entirely written with the established lore of the grim dark future in mind.
This explains the whole demon ascension in a way that I think makes a lot more sense, and could actually be cool to investigate in the future.
Perturabo may be one of if not the only character in this universe who makes his superiority, while others would see as pride, to be an absolute fact. For him to become and being his own man after becoming a Daemon while his chaos brothers before him became pawns, all to essentially make a point, is beyond all levels of flexing and badassery. It is as if his mission is to become a living embodiment, a message to the galaxy even, of something along the lines of "The galaxy would be a much better place if we weren't getting in our own way." In which case, he would more than likely be right given how everything bad that is happening and has ever happened in their universe is pretty much their own fault in one way or another.
I swear if Perturabo ever ends up killing Lucious The Eternal and not be affected by his curse, than that may just end up being one of the greatest moments in 40k history.
I honestly wonder if Perty and the Necrons will will have some sort of interaction considering they're made of living metal and all that. Vashtor seemed to help a lot in that regard though. Either way, more Perty content is always welcome.
Poor perty needs some fatherly love.
Great video! Love Perturabo, hope we see more about him in the future! I would love to have more dark mechanicum, iron warriors, and Vashtor being chaos besties.
With the rise of Vashtor in the Arks of Omen arc, I would love Robo-Perty to be the next Primarch to return in the service of Vashtor
I'm convinced that Vashtorr is the bing he did the ritual for because come on, that's the only warp entity that he would willing work with.
I think he will be. It'd be cool if vashtor's end would come not at the emperium or chaos but instead a pissed off Perturabo that he tryed to enslave. That or they are going to go through with him as the 6th chaos god.
Perturabo being an independent minor warp god leading an independent iron legion faction would be awesome.
just.... they should retconned Pert into the first deamon primarch of Vashtorr
that, or undo his ascension
just doesn't fit him
I like the idea of Pertrabo ascending to deamonhood to then encase himself in a deamon engine, I think it would be fitting.
Deamons enhabit engins to free themselves from warp dependence, a weakness Pertrabo knows all too well from his bout with Angeron.
Forging a deamon dread to harness warp power by his own means would alleviate that problem.
I hope he's not a deamon, but just wearing a giant dreadnought as armour to screw with people's minds
You have been my introduction and main teacher of all things warhammer, love the work you pour into these vids and look forward to every upload.
Wouldnt mind seeing some more grimdark storytime
Iron within Iron without
As an iron warriors fan boy, I really hope they do justice to my boi peter turbo and dont just make him become a demon lord out of some dues ex machina. I honestly hope they retcon this in a way we have a primarch that chose heresy not to serve chaos but chose to rebel because screw you.
How I the fuck did you manage to put another amazing video out so quickly?! You're a God Emperor yourself Wes! :D Thanks for all the dedication you put into educating us on this incredibly detailed universe! :)
I don't know why people are confused about this. Perturabo thought he already was a perfect logical war machine and always sought more power in material *things* rather than himself or his men. In his mind he reached his "peak" long ago, and all he could to was find new toys. His latest fascination was using the warp as a *thing* that can be harnessed. His fate is one of the most obvious paths to Chaos lol.
I love Perturabo, and your inclination of him and Vashtor in some way interacting makes so much sense. His demonic Ascension is a good choice, conducted through a ritualistic sacrifice of the gene-seed of his sworn rival and counterpart while also rebuking the demonic lords and refusing to utilize their forces and magics is a great character aspect.
That said? I’m sticking with the whole ‘Demon made of Living-Metal that looks like a really buff Titan’ versus the ‘dredged corpse and hissing cornrows’ look!
I would love a long form video that covers all the primarchs and their current status in the lore. I’m still new to 40k but I’m loving all your videos.
I was surprised to learn that iron warriors got rid of mutation cause I remember seeing pics online of a comic where the iron warriors clearly having mutations with one having a ram’s face and horns.
Doubt that Pertorabo is a demon Prince.
More like a Primarch who built himself the world's chonkiest Terminator/Dreadnought hybrid due to the prank that Fulgrim did 😂
I like the theory, that he isn't a demon, rather he build a kind of life support system around himself that keeps him alive due to the wound Fulgrim gave him, which would also explain why he is as sane as he is.
I have to disagree. Warhammer doesn't do retcons well.
Because it doesn't do retcons.
It does "Ahh, but are you _sure_ that's how it happened? Is the _narrator_ even sure? Was that data corrupted over time? Is someone lying?"
Seeing all of this siege of terra and horus heresy storylines made me want a "which books to read for what series" video. There are TONS of books to read from, and it's all over the place. I think that specially now that people should hopefully be joining the fandom with the 10th edition out, space marine 2 coming out soon, and tacticus and boltgun also on the market, you should use this oportunity to make a video on which books to read to follow which series, like xenos series, imperial guard series, or all of this primarch drama series! I for one am reading gaunts ghosts for a while now but i'm still very very lost.
It's pretty common sense though. Siege of Terra is the end of the horus heresy.
just read whatever as entertainment. if you just want a lore thing for why something is something just read the wiki instead. you don't need to speedrun the entertainment part, it's not like it's like actual education (or fully in sync with other books).
He was clearly perturbed about the whole situation.
I have my own theory, but I’ll admit it’s really more wishful thinking than anything else. I think that Perturabo isn’t a Daemon Primarch, but rather a Daemonhost. He used the gene seed to summon a powerful daemon from the Warp, then bound it into himself in order to access its power, stating in control through force of will.
I feel it explains how a Chaos-hating individual could gain daemonic power, since most Daemon Princes had to show a fanatical level of devotion to achieve their status.
Perturabo demon prince of vashtor would be cool 😎
That would make way more sense.
A team up of Demen Perturabo and Vashtor would be very good
I'd love to see Pert and Vashtorr interact, they're my favorites!
Peurturabo isn't less emotional than his brothers. He isn't driven by logic he's driven by spite, bitterness and jealousy.
While this is something of a personal take I always thought of Perty taking the Daemon makeover was something he did out of necessity after suffering from, let's face it, a lot of damage. Be it from Fulgrim stealing some of his life, actual battle wounds during the siege of Terra, or even after the siege from who knows how many warp entities that probably thought "here's my chance to devour a very powerful weakened soul". It seems like something he'd do begrudgingly more than willingly and to top it all of probably on his own terms in his own way. It's why I kind of like the idea of him being depicted of a giant made out of daemonic metal. Rather than go through some ascension ritual where he'd turn physically into a Daemon Primarch he said "screw this I'll do it my own way" and found a way to forcefully conduct the ritual using technology fused with some warp smithing. He is Petty Perty after all and there's no way he'll accept becoming a weakened shell of what he used to be even if it meant giving himself into Chaos.
Perturabo is the Frank Grimes of Warhammer. And Dorn is his Homer Simpson.
Perturabo is Practical. And it _aught to_ get him success. But this is 40K, and the Chaos gods are literally out to get him. So he gets Envious.
Meanwhile the autistic blockhead in yellow with the melee obsession gets all the glory.
And Perturabo snaps.
"What's this? Daemons? Oh, I don't need a Gellar field, because _I'm Rogal Do-"_ ZZAP!
I'd love if Perty became a Daemon Primarch of Vashtoor if he ever ascends to a Chaos God
Pete Turbo, the ever petulant man-child.
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
I could also see Perturobo's apotheosis being him managing to pay Vashtor's price. From the way GW has set up Vash as a demonic arms merchant/loan shark and the enslavement comes from not being able to fulfill your own end of the contract, but unlike a lot of the others he let's simple math do his work for him and doesn't double deal to ensure that his clients default makes him likely the best god to deal with for someone like the lord of iron.
Wasn't it that Dorn's stubborn refusal of the Codex Astartes rule to break his Legion into Chapters that lead him to bring them to that suicidal attack? I kmow I heard that somewhere.
That was on text to speech. Not sure how cannon it is
@@jamesmattila-hine1133 I have been mislead into Heresy
@@Orgruk No, not from TTS. Dorn's motivations are unclear and not canon anywhere. There are many interpretations of events, and the narrative in this video is just another yet unflattering interpretation. Recent lore regarding Dorn's mind being essentially broken at the hands of Khorne should be proof enough that Dorn does not break. So no, I refuse to believe he had a tantrum and suddenly became st"pid enough to fall for every single one of Turbo's traps. Why Dorn did what he did will depend on who you ask, but 'he just got mad bro' is not a good enough explanation. If a thousand years of Khorne whispering into his ear to the point of losing all memory isn't enough to even remotely faze Dorn, then I reject the idea that he just had a temper tantrum when it came to Turbo. It is illogical. I mean look how bias this video was. Starts by making claims about how non emotional and perfectly logical Turbo is, then admits Turbo's failures were emotional in nature. Dorn is pompous? Is this spoken from the perspective of Turbo? Or the narrator?
I would love a standoff between the csm Iron Warriors led by Peter Turbo and the Tyranids.
Two brute forces facing off against each other sounds so amazing
Vashtor could create weapons for Perturabo and his legion before they fight against the galaxy again. It'd be cool to see Perturabo fight demon Fulgrim.
Vashtorr and Perty seem like a dream team for sure
A year late, but it feels like Perturabo would be using the Warp to get power rather than Chaos. We don't have a non-Chaos traitor primarch that is this warp-infused, but given Corvus Corax going wild in the Warp, it's entirely possible that Perturabo is a traitor Warp primarch not serving any of the Four Gods. If he would work with any daemons, they would most likely be non-Chaos ones. With the introduction of Vashtorr, there seems to be even more room for this kind of thing too
Of all the character trajectories that throw me for a loop, it's Perturabo. From brilliant but petulant redditor who'd always blame someone else for any of his shortcomings and would look for any excuse to decimate his sons, to an actual leader capable of taking criticsm on the chin and fostering growth in his sons. It is wild that falling to the forces of chaos seems to have made Perturabo more compentent when everyone else got worse from it.
18:19
is it me but too many of the primarchs are described as being giants amoung them, initially mangus the red was called a giant and I thought that meant he was 9-12 feet tall. and I thought rus and other primarchs was just normal space marine height or just a bit taller, but now it seems retconed that all of them were all a foot or two taller then regular marines who themselves are 7-8-9 feet in armor.
if russ is 8-9 feet and magnus 10-12 a person looking at them is going to see both as giants.
And apparently vulkan was the tallest, so the giant characteristic is even less magnus, if anything he is just above average and ugly.
"Oh look a room of giants, the largest is pitch black and the one with red hair is realy ugly"
Bricky's video about the legions was pretty spot on about Perturabo and the Iron Warriors. "Perturabo and the Iron Warriors do not serve the Chaos Gods because they like them, they serve them because f*** you!" They use Chaos for their ends and Chaos uses them in turn, that's it.
🔴❤️
Khorne Magic: Metal (Iron=Blood)!
Perturabo the Demon Primarch of Khorne and his Iron Warriors: just like living armor leaking hot iron generated by their own boiling blood!
(And most terrifyingly, despite their rage their minds are intact)
According to logic, how would Perturabo seal his pact with Khorne, destroying first Monarchia and then Olympia?
Can he become a master of destructive Metal Magic, then creating bloodthirsty Sorcerers of Khorne in his army?
Perfect example is the magic of Azariah Kyras as the Daemon Prince of Khorne!
Not Kharn but Kroeger the Betrayer!
Didnt perturabo sustain a wound by fulgrim in angel exterminatus that caused him a soul leak anyway ? And he had little choice but to ascend to avoid slowly dying ? Or is that « Reddit » shaky lore ?
I also appreciated Perturabo in his spite for the loss of control of his erstwhile brothers. And yeah, Vashtorr makes the perfect Daemonic Partner for Perty. Engine oriented, no double dealings, frank and upfront. The logical step for me would be perturabo wrenching the title of warmaster from Abbaddon, but well, lets see if GW goes with this Avenue of thinking ;)
Fulgrim mortally wounded him and he had to become a daemon. I don't remember what book it was but Fulgrim wanted daemonhood by sacrificing Perturabo, managed only to wound him.
I have a theory about Perturabo. The new god and Perturabo of them will work together to stop the Tyranids then they change their focus to the other gods and the Emperor of Mankind.
Hello
You forgot he's also a professional incel 0:31
00:24:00 "Games Workshop is really good with how they handle retcons". But that doesn't seem to stop them doing some major ones. As I recall, the first time they did the 13th black crusade, Eldrad Ulthran's soul ended up trapped in eternal conflict inside Abaddon's planet killer ship to disempower it.
And then all of a sudden he was alive and well and creating the Eldar god of death while Abaddon had a 2nd attempt at the 13th black crusade.
I know they wanted to use the number 13 for the devastating effect of the Cicatrix Maledictum (spellcheck pls), but they could have just made it the 14th black crusade and had Ynnead resurrect Eldrad instead of pretending round one never happened.
p.s. I was less involved with 40k by this point, so I feel free to fact check me :)
Obviously a lot of iron warrior fans are pissed at the prospect of Demon Perty, calling for a vashtor retcon or smth, but i personally think that him being turned into a full fledged demon is much more interesting a development that the dreadnought theory. Each chaos Primark has been greviously humbled in their rise to power, forced to contend with the consequence of their treachery with the most ironic outcomes. Perturabo being stuck at eternam within the being of a consept he abore deeply would fuel his eternal resentment. He'd be a chaos demon of pure spite, willing to make the entire gamaxy pay for his fate.
Because in the end he's still a big baby throwing a tantrum 🤗
The Iron Cage is pure character assignation of Rogal Dorn. I think Dorn would have thought logically and just use orbital bombardment until a smoking crater just existed in that whole area, if that did not work, exterminatus
I'm still fairly new to the 40k lore. If someone reads this can you explain why the IPs wouldn't just forsake the whole siege and just use a planet destroying weapon to just wipe them out altogether? Cuz aren't there weapons that can literally crack a planet in half in 40k? Or do you guys think it was literally just a narrative thing? Cuz obviously you want them to have a big showdown. Wes it would be so awesome if you could answer this, but I'll be happy with anyone knowledgeable.
Wes, I'm a huge fan, I've watched every video and don't plan on stopping, but I have one criticism. I'm begging you; stop saying "ascended to demon-hood" you can't ascend to something beneath you. The lord of iron stooped to their level and became something less than human. It makes me sick everytime I hear it, and you said it a lot this video. Other wise, great work here. Keep it up.
I’m kinda new to warhammer and with your last bit, I’m really curious at what retcons GW has done to characters and factions, or like the top 10 retcons/controversial changes to the lore. I think that’d be a cool video
In the past it was always said Dorn knew it to be a trap but walked into it wilfully since he and his Legion were against the division into Chapters (as were Leman Russ and Vulkan for that matter). He knew his Sons need to go through the pain glove experience themselves in order to be reborn as a new force. Thus, the Iron Cage.
It should noted that Iron Warrior units and installations have been noted for using Warp powered weapons batteries. But then got eaten by Tyranids. But I am with Majorkill on this and I don't think Perturabo is Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. Unless Vashtorr does become a 5th Chaos Gods and then ascended Perturabo from the future or something. No I think the idea that his ascension is lie spread by Perturabo to prevent others from thinking he is weak. Also that he he is still dying from Fulgrim attempt on his life. Not to mention we have never heard of Daemon Prince of anyone but Nurgle who have necrotic and dying flesh. It would explain is lack of madness and the fact he wanted to be a God in his own right and not a slave to the pantheon.
Personally, no I don't like perty is a daemon. He was always that one person among the traitors that you could point to and say that he has legit motivations and he did everything he did on his own because that's what he wanted to do. I liked having the one rationalish and logical character among a bunch of emotional mustache twirling villains.
But most of all, after reading all of the novels so far for horus heresy and 40k, I don't want to see the character of perterabo inevitably fall into this obvious trap of thinking you can apply order to chaos, because from everything we learn about chaos over the years, you simply can't do that. You can gain it's benefits without succumbing to its pitfalls and worship. And let's not forget you absolutely have to give to gain with chaos. That gene seed won't be the last thing they expect from him and it just seems like he is too intelligent not to realize all this. But most of all and I think most importantly, he is not someone to give up control of himself or anything he thinks of as his. Which as we know just isn't possible with chaos.
Thats not to say I don't think they will write it in a way that goes the direction you're saying, but I still don't like it. I feel like I'm balancing those lines you cited with novels worth of info about him and the scales don't balance. Again not to say you're not right, it seems you are. I just don't like it
don't think I wouldn't notice where the art at 16:55 was from
Whats it from
Rogal Dorn kinda dumb, not gonna lie.
Ah classic Peter Turbo getting shafted by those around him just for funnsies
@ WesHammer, sir, @ 16:01 here Fulgrim is said to have tricked Perturabo and here at 16:17 it is said that these things will not happen to him (him being Perturablo). This order of events is not logical.
Perty being a demon is about as lame as Fulgrim getting out of the Dorian grey treatment off screen.... really at all...thought that would have been a great story line... even make it reference the novel several times... anyway, perty daemon prince = lame.
19:35 Well caught 👏 This is something that would've bugged me too in the sense of right being right! Appreciate it. But also the understanding and respectful way you pointed it out. Thank you.
PS! Glad to hear someone else also appreciate and give credit to Games Workshop ability to keep and maintain a relatively coherent and sensible overarching plotline!
Had Perturabo remained with The Imperium, The Horus Heresy would've lost steam so much earlier. The Iron Warriors hard carried the entire heresy.
The first rule of war is to do what your enemy does not expect. Perturabo did not expect a simple Exterminatus, so that is what Dorn should have done.
A good friend of mine summarized it to me with "He caught AIDs because fulgrim pulled a sneaky on his ass"
I rather like the theory where perti has been dying cause of what fulgrim has done. He has been doing as much as he could to slow down his death/stop it by using machines, that's why he is now a large hunk of steel with a necrotic face.
i really do like how Daemon Perturabo is described with his games with Honsou, while corrupted, he's obviously still in control of himself and "sane" for what he is. he's not enraptured in rage, or a puppet on strings, or a pleasure fiend... he's still The Father of His Sons, he still teaches them, even if the lessons may be lethal.
what i REALLY REALLY HOPE FOR, is perurabo comes back in 10th edition and he gets connections to vashtor
that doesnt mean i want perty to be a genaric "chaos evil guy" even if he becomes vashtor's champion... no... no i want vashtor and perty to work AGAINST the other 4 in the great game, they don't steal or bargain for power, they EARN it, they FIND it, they don't sacrifice their freedoms for quick uncontrollable power, they get the good stuff.
A other good vidoe dude keep you rock
Perturabo is the closest I'll get to a w40k Lord Vader that's why he is my favorite.
I don't like the fact that Perturabo became a daemon, but I would love to see how gw will eventually justify that choice and then I will probably really like the new daemon peter turbo, they released some great lore recently and i'm kinda optmistic about the future lore for these ancient characters returning to the setting
Vashtorr YES! Honestly, I cannot stand that he and Abaddon are working together in the forefront and Perty is in the back(as ALWAYS) haha. Kinda makes sense, in a meta perspective. He STILL isn't getting the recognition he craves. But it does make a ton of sense that he and the Arkhifane(sp.?) would be working together with Perturabo's love of technology and Vashtorr being the literal Daemon of Technology. I can't wait to see the model GW comes up with when Perty comes back to the setting. Soon......
Gimma a vid about slaanesh and fulgrim/emperors children great vid btw
There are other daemons/forces in the warp other than the chaos Gods, that could be a interesting angle, kind of making them more a rogue legion rather than a chaos one and I think this would be a fresh perspective instead of people saying he must be Either A or B, why not add a C or D option.
Even Sanguinius tells his brother Dorn, we have lasted this long only thanks to you