The biggest problem with men in the Church is that men are given responsibility, but not authority. We claim that we give men authority, but authority only exists if it is sustained, and it is not. For example, we are told that we “are to preside over” our families, but at the same time are constantly told that our wives are spiritually superior to us, so really, we should just follow them. For another example, we are told that being ordained to the priesthood is important and that it is important to have a priesthood holder in the home, but we are also told, by our prophet, in the talk Spiritual Treasures, that while men require ordination to the priesthood in order to officiate in ordinances, women “are authorized to perform and officiate in priesthood ordinances” in the temple without ordination. Women also have both priesthood authority and power without ordination, and the only thing that stands in the way of a woman presiding in her home is her husband still being alive, but as discussed earlier, that doesn’t really matter, because the meaning of the word ‘preside’ as been changed to basically mean nothing. In LDS culture this denigration of men has always been the case. I'm sure we all remember the joke, “They chose the Bishop by finding the most righteous person in the ward, and then call her husband.”, and we all laugh, but underlying that joke is the idea that women (femininity) are more righteous and worthy than men (masculinity). This attitude even gets preached in General Conference when male leaders in the Church write entire talks about how men should avoid correcting their wives and instead follow their wives. The two examples that jump to my mind are Elder Larry Y. Wilson’s talk “Only upon the Principles of Righteousness” from 2012, and Elder Isaac K. Morrison’s talk “We Can Do Hard Things through Him” from 2022. Both of these talks focus on the importance of Men NOT leading their wives. I cannot think of a talk in a recent conference where wives were admonished to obey their husbands or as Elder Morrison put it “Listen to and heed the promptings of your” husband. What other message are men supposed to take from the constant character attacks and minimization of our roles and authorities?
I refuse to believe that I, as a man, am inferior regardless of whatever is ever said or done anywhere at anytime. I feel the truth in my bones-- that I am a son of God.
This is so true in many ways. The men have always been held accountable for any degree of unrighteous dominion in the home. And we should be. Any unrighteousness dominion should be eliminated. I have yet to hear anything similar calls for the women to not exercise unrighteousness dominion in the family, though I see examples of it all the time in wards. I've seen women belittle and berate their husband in public church activities and never once heard any of the women called to repentance. In Heavenly Father's eternal plan of happiness, neither is the woman without the man nor the man without the women, in the Lord. We are supposed to be united equally and complimentary in guiding the family, with the huband and father presiding as directed by the influence of the Holy Ghost. Any degree of unrighteousness dominion by either the father or the mother can destroy the family unit and have eternal consequences.
I think you are misunderstanding Priesthood authority and Priesthood Power. This is an issue women don't understand either. Priesthood authority is to act in God's name. This requires ordination. Priesthood Power is given up on the gift of the Holy Ghost. This means anyone, including our baptized 8 year olds, that are confirmed can speak with the power of the priesthood. Read 2nd Nephi. Women in the temple are set apart for that role but do not have Priesthood authority outside of that function. I honor my husband, and his spiritual capacity. I am not a woman that wants Priesthood ordination, but I certainly have been studying what blessings I have and blessings promised through our covenants.
I miss the Priesthood meeting after General Conf. on Saturday. My son and brother-in-law and myself would go to dinner after the meeting and it got nixed when my sister-in-law felt her husband spent too much time away from home and resented the time we took going to dinner. It was great bonding time for us and this Saturday evening watching the 3rd session, I decided to reignite that tradition with my youngest son. We're going to do our own thing, and I should've done it a few years ago.
While you can't control what takes place in your BIL's marriage, it's encouraging to see you making an effort to reignite the tradition with your son. It's little decisions like this that will lead to more connection within our culture. Connection is a choice, and your decision to connect with your son this way may lead to a generations-long tradition.
Can we please have a video on how young women can learn to be feminine?!!!!! As a young woman in the YSA I see way too much masculinity in the girls, and I catch myself falling into it as well 😬 can we please find someone to teach us ladies???? 😊
I see women in the church of all ages very influenced by modern culture, what's fashionable, current trends, social media, etc. Disciples of Christ lead not follow. Not to be swayed by the world.
something I got out of this episode is that men need other men to learn masculinity, which I agree with. I think the same applies to young women, they need the example of other women (maybe older women who still embrace traditional feminine roles), to teach them and be their mentors.
As I am listening, it reminds me of the account of rogue elephants in a preserve in Africa. Park rangers noticed that there were a rise in rhino deaths. Something was going around killing rhinos for seemingly no reason... horns were left intact, etc. It turned out that there was a band of teenage male elephants that were going around and picking fights with rhinos and then goring them to death. Rangers realized that these elephants were all orphans, raised in the Park without any adult elephants to teach them how to be an elephant. As they hit puberty, these young males were full of piss and vinegar and they ganged up on anything that they could bully and kill. The Solution: Bring in older adult male elephants to teach the young ones a thing or two. The Park flew in older, larger, adult males and let them interact with the youngsters. The first time a young bull tried to shove his way around with the adult male, he quickly realized that he was no longer the big boy on the block. The large adult wrestled the young down and pinned him to the ground as if to say: "look son, that may work with rhinos, but that isn't going to work with me! I'm in charge now, got it?" And as the young males were shown by the adults what it meant to be an elephant, and a male elephant at that, the rhino killings ceased. Masculinity begets masculinity. And we really do need the older men to teach us younger men (I'm 45), and those younger than us... how to be men. How to lead. How to be righteous priesthood holders and leaders in our communities. www.bbcearth.com/news/teenage-elephants-need-a-father-figure
I’ve got a comment about what men are going through in the church: We see all the time comments about what men need to change or to get busy doing something, but there is never any comments or discussion about any problems with women or femininity. It’s a culture of one-way critical examination which can feel quite judge-mental and then total praise and acceptance in the other direction. How about a conversation on what real femininity is and what men want and need from women.
I love that you are talking about this issue. Men are in serious trouble right now. For whatever reason women's hearts have been turned ice cold towards men and rather than treating them with kindness and respect, they treat them as a means to and end often only valuing them for how successful they are in money and society. It's hard to be masculine, when every time you step into your masculinity, you are called out by your wife or some other woman, who has fallen for the lies of feminist. Over time men have just given up and just live their life without women. The church has not called the women out on their attitudes towards men. In fact if you look up talks about marriage, you will find that the majority of those talks tell men to be kind and gentle to their wives, but rarely do they tell women to be kind and gentle to their husbands. Everyone is afraid to stand up to the women in our society even women are afraid to stand up against their crazy sisters.
Don't give up. I am a woman who loves and values a masculine man, who honors his priesthood. Some women don't realize how much they need a masculine man. It disgusts me when I see a wife putting her husband down. Men with strength offers security.
Amen. I’m pretty much teaching my sons to lead, be strong priesthood holders but not to expect much from LDS women anymore. I will encourage them (they’re young still) to date outside the church, the Julie Hansons and her ilk are not the kind of women men in the church need. The are much stronger women outside the church who love God and still love their men to act like men. This is more intended for the younger men, I’m happily married to a real woman who helps me realize my fullest potential, and I likewise encourage her. Almost like a sealed companionship as was intended.
@@sandeakilpatrick2386 appreciate the words but your last sentence boiled it all down. Security. What happens when Gadianton controlled govts and economies offer the facade of security while persecuting and oppressing those trying to live God's familial standards? Most women will jump ship to Uncle Sam I mean Sugar. Destroyed the Black family and the same play book is in work right now. Modern females have been taught to value security over liberty. Comfort and conformity over conviction.
I watched the first video and immediately recommended EQ only activities to my Bishop and EQ president. The Bishop loved the idea and pushed it in ward council. A lot of the women in there agreed, saying their husbands need that camaraderie in the church. I was inactive for about 15 years until 2020 and wondered why there wasn't any.
I shared the first video with my Bishop and EQ Pres. Our Bishop hated it and he came to talk to me about it. Never heard any feedback from our EQ President about it.
@I Am that's unfortunate. I didn't share the video, I just suggested EQ only activities. Maybe try just asking about activities. The EQ has their own budget for a reason lol
I have directed this men in the church idea to 2 bishops, 2 different wards, maybe as a talk or 5th Sunday discussion. I got the feeling that they were afraid that it would cause talking problems between sexes.
I am a Deacon's advisor and I use the word "Duty" frequently. Somehow, this word seems to have become anathema in the modern Church culture. It's like we are afraid to offend these boys if we expect them to step up and serve missions, date, fulfill callings, prepare for their education, etc. Do we think that by walking on eggshells we will somehow do them favors? Say it like it is! Let them learn and understand their duty!
ive wondered where all the young mens responsibility went. when i was a deacon, i had flags every holiday, snow shovel assignments, fast offerings, taking the sacrament, manning the doors, scouts, even cleaning up chairs after activities. the young men in our ward outnumber mine by 3 to 1 and yet they never do service, they arent being taught to be men
Yes, it's modern culture as well. Schools and parents don't teach the word duty and what that means for family, God, country, community, church, anything good, virtuous, lovely or of good report. Interesting how gang and mafia culture understands this concept and how important it is. You are correct that duty seems dirty, undesirable, and a hassle nowadays. Shows how selfish and self centered society has taught people to be.
I love that word and wish we used it way more often. I used a photo of that said duty to God and Aaronic Priesthood as a image for a youth group text we use. But one of our advisors changed and it to a temple and our bishop liked it more. Even though the goal is the temple, I think that image we have now misses the message of stepping stones, or a process, or maybe a how too, or at least doesn’t convey the message that we are a group with duties.
Years of denigrating the young men, often by “innocent jokes” (“We men are such losers we have to rely on the sisters to get anything done, derp de derp de derp.”) from simps at the pulpit have reinforced the world’s war on boys and men. What other outcome would you expect?
I wonder if we've gutted the OPPORTUNITIES for developing a relationship between younger men and mentors/leaders by not allowing 1-1 time that gives them a chance to bond (in a proper way). We now mandate 2-deep men to any young men, which doesn't help with having a young man develop trust that lets them be frank or honest, or a young man to open up about some concerns without feeling like he's sharing it with a 3rd party as well. Or feeling a 2 adults-on-1 youth dynamic.
This isn’t talked about often, if ever, but it’s the need many have within our community for more platonic physical affection/affirmation from other men, more than just a handshake and bro-hug. We’ve “homosexualised” more intimate displays of affection between men in our culture to the point where we fear to give it or cringe to receive it. Those of us who need more physical affection from other men are left with a feeling of loneliness and disconnection from male peers because of this. I think we should adopt more of an Arab or Indian view of masculinity, in which more intimate displays of affection between men is perfectly normal and not considered homosexual at all.
I could really care less about hanging out with EQ in the woods.... I just want to be able to talk about hard topics. I want our leaders to talk about hard topics. I feel our male leaders have been feminized in that they focus on the mercy and not the law of God. Yes there’s a balance but I just recall as a youth during priesthood session at conference the leaders used to rebuke us so often. I don’t ever hear topics like the pornography, fornication or the even more sensitive topics of lgbt or the fact that our youth are leaving at crisis levels. All I heard in conference is “all is well in Zion” and how well we’re doing. It’s like men are afraid to speak truth today. I get it though because we can lose everything if we aren’t woke at work and say the wrong thing. The new leftist secular religion is unforgiving and ruthless. I just want to be a part of a group that can be United on Gospel principles. Not to demonize those that struggle with the topics I mentioned but at least talk about it and root for those that are trying. Admit our faults and humility. Yes we are a hospital for sinners but we seem afraid to administer the medicine that is going to be uncomfortable but will ultimately he’ll heal those that struggle. We need a Jordan Peterson in the Church that will speak boldly and truthfully but understandingly.
I agree. I was left a little wanting from conference. The theme perhaps was to be nice. In this very month when we could expect an economic downturn, violence from virtue signaling groups, or hatred towards all Christian’s…we are to be nice. Got it. It is a good reminder when times do get bad perhaps but not what I was expecting from Conference.
I completely understand where you are coming from. But I heard something subtly different from “be nice”. The message I heard was “don’t contend” with your enemies. There are a number of reasons for this message at this time. We are living in the last days, not in the time of Moroni. Moroni, coming from a position of strength, lined up the enemies of the people and put them to death if they did not chose to get on board with the program. We live in a very different time. Our enemies are rising in overwhelming strength against us. The enemies of God’s people today have unlimited resources both in terms of enforcement and punishment of those who contend against them. We have been commanded in the last dispensation to separate and gather together, and let the God of this earth fight our battles, even if needs be by fire out of heaven. But we lose this promise of protection if we contend one with another. If we choose to take up our swords after God has forbidden contention, he will let us die by the sword.
@@iam8193 I felt some of the same things, but being out on social media and dealing with difficult topics where political sides are taken, I've found that boldly going forward and keeping to topics, pointing out efforts to "shoot the messenger" over the message, avoiding name calling, calling a spade a spade, and being "real" and avoiding falling for partisan labels while dealing respectfully with others has led to (I believe) some level of respect by others, because I treat them with respect, even if I disagree. (I don't have to fall for the baiting that happens, but I can bring about good dialogue in a productive manner.) Standing on good principles also helps those who are usually quiet open up a little, but I also don't encourage flamethrowers on either side. I'll ask questions that might puncture the points they're trying to throw around, but I try not to come across sarcastic or put them down. There's a lot to what Pres. Nelson said about courteous discourse, but not needing to be walked on or remaining in abusive relationships.
@@iam8193 I agree with what you said. I felt that Pres. Nelson's talk can be very easily taken out of context to mean that we shouldn't push back against the evils going on in the world but that we should just be nice guys and get along with everyone all the time. Don't offend anyone or hurt their feelings. That kind of thinking perpetuates the spiral of silence that Greg talks about so much. I wish he had backed up what he was saying about not being contentious with some caveats. There is certainly a time to be contentious. Christ's statements to the pharisees calling them hypocrites and a generation of vipers was very contentious as was his casting out the moneychangers. Peace at all costs is not a virtue.
I miss talking about the hard topics, too. There seems to be a fear that hard discussions will lead to individuals leaving the church out of feelings of shame. Seems to me like they are leaving the church in high numbers anyway. I'm all for bringing back the crucial conversations!
The church removed 8 leadership positions from men in every ward. Positions were removed at the Stake level as well. Then one of the men’s priesthood groups was essentially dissolved. You can’t help but feel this if you are paying attention.
Priesthood meeting used to be held at the ward level 2 hours every Sunday morning. General priesthood meeting was a big deal twice a year. The Church doesn't really value priesthood anymore. Jesus Christ called 24 apostles, every one of them were men.
I feel that when the church made this change, I understood the reason and hopes behind it, but I can’t help but feel we are worse off now. I keep thinking we still need to learn and adapt to the youths new four part goals, but they just suck really compared to Boy Scouts. I also think Bishops are to busy still and do not spend enough time with the youth as they’ve been instructed to do. Men want to feel valued in their wards but there’s only a small handful of callings now that help express that. Maybe that’s why they’ve shut off more and don’t minister even.
If I could add to this, after a few days of pondering this. If we are worse off now, it is because we as men are not using our agency in the new space that God has given us. We have ceased to be commanded in all things, and are being left now to step up and fill the role. Like a child without training wheels, this transition is bound to hurt a little, but we will be the independent, strong saints God needs for the last days. I feel it is comparable to the lower and higher law. Let us take our awareness of the problem and step up, be the change. I have felt like many of you, and only recently have began to take action, and it feels good my brothers. Love in Christ to all. I should really change my profile picture before posting things like this lol
I know I've had a tremendous desire to sit down and be able to talk and fraternize with older men lately. Being a young father who's trying his best to live like the Savior would want me, it's often difficult for me because my father never went to church with my family. He was a great example of hard work, but I've always felt a spiritual void as far as my masculinity goes. And I firmly believe that the pornography issues I dealt with in my teenage years and into my young adult years would have been far easier to overcome had I had a consistent spiritual father figure. The times that I did the best were times like when I had a close relationship with my bishop, or my mission president.
I work from home 12+ hours per day. Lifting weights during lunch is what I look forward to most. Not because I’m an athletic guy or anything, but because I feel like I actually accomplish something. Clicking “send” on an email just isn’t as satisfying.
In the April 1993 general conference, then Elder Faust quoted a journalist regarding the role of fathers in child development: "'Studies show that fathers have a special role to play in building a child’s self-respect. They are important, too, in ways we really don’t understand, in developing internal limits and controls in children. . . . Research also shows that fathers are critical in establishment of gender in children. Interestingly, fatherly involvement produces stronger sexual identity and character in both boys and girls. It is well established that the masculinity of sons and the femininity of daughters are each greater when fathers are active in family life.'" While the statement is about fathers specifically, I think it's only logical to assume that it comes down to something about men and how righteous masculine influence enables certain key developments in children. I guess I'm just curious about it-what it exactly means and what it is about men or masculinity that creates this influence, especially regarding the development of sexual identity in boys AND girls.
Wow! My hubby and I are in our 70s, married for 33 years, yet this discussion has helped me understand him so much better. Having a real paradigm shift here, and beginning to understand why he’s quiet sometimes, and what his inner struggles might be. Very helpful!
I have a feminist wife. She has suffered trauma from two prior marriages, and projects a lot of anxiety on me and tries to control my relationships with other people, to where I don't like to be around her much. I watched a movie with her recently, "His Only Son" about Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac. (EXCELLENT movie!) Naturally the conflict over childlessness and Abraham being blessed as a father of nations leads into the decision for Sarah to give her handmaiden to Abraham for creating offspring. It's handled in a difficult and sensitive way (I know, opposites - watch it and see) and I wept the numerous times this was depicted, because Abraham was torn about accepting this handmaiden, because of his vows to his wife. I could feel the difficulty of what was to come, and the aftermath that would surely come as well. And this was portrayed very well, too. I was dying to talk to my wife about so many spiritual parts of the movie and how it was portrayed, the EXCELLENT dialogue, the music, the difficulties of the anticipated sacrifice, etc., but knew where this was going to go. When the movie ended I started to comment about how amazing the movie was, and a few steps later, my wife ripped into Abraham, labeling him as unfaithful, sex-starved, taking advantage, "he could have said no", etc. She said they were hard scenes, and I agreed, telling her I wept during them. She looked at me in shock momentarily, like "How could YOU possible understand what she went through?", and then continued to bash Abraham. I left silently as we approached her car. I'm glad we came in separate cars. It gave me time to think more about the many wonderful aspects of the movie, including portraying some difficult emotional and spiritual choices. Alone.
This discussion is so important. We do a great job of ministering to women, children, and youth in the church. If a man needs ministry that means he isn't good enough and too flawed to be around the righteous men. We know how to kick men while they are down so men are left to pretend that everything is OK.
You know what I love about God? How he will lead you from one thing to the next. I just got done listening to Wild at Heart before I heard these episodes and it's been great to hear other Latter-Day Saints talk about this book and how masculinity is lacking in the church b/c if I'm being honest I have felt so alone for the longest time and didn't realize that this was part of the reason. Not that I didn't know very masculine men within the church. I have indeed had to give myself permission to be what a true man is and it took me a long time to do that and to even realize that that's what needed to be done.
Yes! Nobody wants to cover the war chapters in the BOM. And, when it does come up in the CFM curriculum, it gets boiled down to metaphors for "being strong spiritually" or something similar, rather than actual valor in the face of life or death.
@@nathangreer8219true. We are ignoring the war around us, as well. There are forces without, and within the church that parallel the destruction of the Kingdom. These stories were included by Mormon *for a purpose.*
Even more so I’ve never heard anyone talk about the kingmen vs freemen and the division within the Church. If that’s not a mirror of what’s going on now o don’t know what is... but God forbid we get political and ruffle feathers....
@@ruckin3 @nathan greer we had a sister in our previous ward that would just skip over the war chapters when she read the Book of Mormon. Rather that chastising her, which would have done no good, I instead pointed out to my children the importance of those chapters in teaching is how to survive on our day both spiritually and physically. During lockdown my 25 year old daughter created a Title of Liberty banner we put up our on our front porch for months, and my 28 year old son made a Title of Liberty decal that he put on his car.
I'm a woman...a grandmother. I also raised a son and daughter alone. There is a conscious decision that mothers need to make when she is raising boys. Whether there is or is not a good masculine role model, it is upon the mother to provide her son (s) with experiences that will help him realize the man within him. I see this problem being discussed on this podcast as being a direct result of the "women's lib" movement as well a generation of permissive and apathetic parenting. It is not natural for children to sit at home, hour after hour in front of a TV, computer, tablet or phone. They NEED to be physically active. They NEED to be outdoors. They don't need to be forced to play sports but they must be exposed to activities and/or hobbies which put them outside and using their bodies. They must be taught how to use their hands! Fix stuff, be handy! I speak from experience. Yes, it can be quite difficult to raise a son, be it as a single mom or married. It doesn't matter. Mothers do have this responsibility. It is part of nurturing and raising up a child/children to be well rounded and capable. I am weary of the excuses being given. It's quite simple, really. Just like most of the social issues today. Common sense is becoming a rare gem.
"They NEED to be outdoors" "Fix stuff, be handy"- 100% agree. I have worked with the youth , 10-14 year old boys for the last 15 years in various capacities within the church and I can tell you right now; the boys that spent significant time outdoors WITH their fathers almost always stood out above the rest. I don't mean that dad was always at their sporting events, I mean, they were hiking, backpacking, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, camping.. WITH their fathers, not with him there as a spectator.. Second thing that had boys rise above the rest was the willingness to do WORK, not avoid it. Love your comment, thanks!
Men deeply want the respect of the men they respect. Let those men you’re close to know how much you respect them for all that they do - at work, in the ward, in their families, in the community - and the you will be amazed at the light that comes from them. Men work incredibly hard all the time, and most of us don’t get any acknowledgment for it. I’m blessed to have a business mentor who has done these things for me, and I’m able to do that for others too. There is a dramatic difference between those who can feel that authentic respect and those who don’t feel respected.
I want an episode of what you thought of Pres Nelson’s talk in conference. Like you’ve said, there is a difference between contention and conflict, but I think that many members are going to interpret Pres Nelson’s talk as telling us not to bring up sensitive topics because that is just going to foster contention. I fear it will put us deeper into the spiral of silence, and frankly it upsets me!!! We are a different Church from when I grew up.
@@captainmoroni1776 I am going to listen to the Prophet, and guard against all unnecessary violence and contentiousness of spirit, while continuing to boldly speak out against sin, wickedness, and all things contrary to the teachings of God. I might even braid a whip and beat some wicked ass now and then, just like my non-contentious hero, Gentle Jesus.
There is a need for good principles to be taught to the world, and not necessarily in a gospel-only context. That's going to offend those who choose to take offense. (you can't satisfy Satan while standing on good principles, natch) But speak respectfully about difficult topics and try to facilitate courteous discourse. It's tough! (I try to imagine a principled grumpy old man who takes pride in his lawn and shares how to grow one, rather than tell people to stay off it.)
I agree with what you said. I found it difficult to listen to. I am someone who enjoys having political and religious conversations with coworkers and people and I'm able to remain respectful of others despite having different opinions. Respectful dialogue is greatly needed in our society and I think that is what Pres. Nelson was getting at, but his emphasis on avoiding contention is likely to result in people in the church not talking about anything that might cause disagreement and continue or increase the spiral of silence that Greg talks about so much. I stated in a previous comment that I wish he had put a caveat in his remarks because there are times that conflict is unavoidable and then we have to face it head on and stand for truth.
We have had a group for a while, since the lockdowns, we call it "Garage Talk" where the first was in a garage and six feet apart, but a group to get together and have discussions about anything. What's interesting is the discussion almost always turns to that of the spiritual from anything and everything. I think there is power there; a time and location where a group of men can come together and realize that discussing the spiritual is not something just for the sisters, but rather an opportunity for us to check in with each other and find growth in a masculine way. Men need that opportunity to stand on their own and see what they stand for; doing so in a group of like minded men will help them to solidify what they stand for; allowing for the darts in the whirlwind to be struck down when the difficult times come. Great discussion!
Absolutely outstanding. I was recently called to be the EQ instructor, and it has been the most frustrating, pointless, deadening thing I've ever done in the church.
Respectfully interested as to why you feel this way. What experiences have you had to determine it to be this way? I completely understand everyone's experiences are different, but I have to say I have never experienced EQ like that..
@@andyg806 It's very much as described in this video: The men sit in two rows, and the ones in the back row are on their phones at least part of the time. A couple of others almost always go to sleep. There is usually a little discussion of my talk, but always by the same brothers. Most ever say anything. The time could be better spent by rigging a monitor and letting them watch the conference talks for themselves, and then go home. There are NEVER any activities other than the hour ever two weeks. I don't oeven know some of the fellows' names, and I rather suspect that's true for some of the others, as well. We are just going through the motions.
More young men need to be willing to branch out into sports. Developing yourself physically is necessary to developing and understanding the nature of your manhood. Mental/Spiritual health is very connected to physical health. There are so many different activities and wards tend to be really small to the point that finding someone who likes the same things can be hard depending where you live I’d love to see more of our young men play rugby, soccer or basketball. All you really need is a ball. But last time I even suggested we play dodgeball, the suggestion was shut down because it’s too “violent”
I think what is easily called out in "traditional" masculine activities like sports or outdoors activities and shooting is the direct confrontation with competition in a healthy sense. Whether it's competition with the environment and being challenged to make a go of it in the outdoors or being able to hunt in the competition to be able to survive if needed, etc. I think music or the arts can provide the same sort of healthy competition in striving to overcome our limitations and demonstration to self first competency and capacity. Admittedly, this is very simplistic in explanation, but i hope people understand what I'm trying to express. I think society has become so afraid of assertiveness that's borne out of unkindness, meanness or ignorance that society has become afraid of healthy assertiveness that's borne out of competence and confidence and some degree of moral certitude.
The book 'The Imtentional Father' is amazing for helping with this. It helps the father be intentional in his masculinity, in having a group of men, in knowing what his principles are, and in being involved in his kids life. It helped wake me up to the importance that the melchezidek priesthood has, what sort of man a priesthood holder should be, which led me to become converted to Christ and to want the same for my kids. Please, if this show sparks something in you, go read it, or listen to The Art of Manliness podcast episode about it at least
Hearing you guys speak about finding a false battle to believe in, I remembered this quote I heard last week, "Satan has a powerful tool to use against good people, it is distraction." - Richard G Scott "First Things First" April 2001
I appreciate this conversation! I was noticing how my most quiet husband was really into March Madness a week ago. It struck me pretty hard in the sense that NONE of the older men in our ward play basketball! So I asked him, "If there were some men at the ward around your age playing basketball, would you be willing to play?". Now, he is a type 1 diabetic, but his answer was honest... je said, "I can't run around a court and get knocked down, but if there were men willing to play HORSE, I'd love to do that". He continued to expand on this by saying, "I mean, even if it was at one of the elders houses with a hoop, I'd love to get to know my fellow brethren that way, but all the men in the ward are 'techie' guys who don't seem to talk about sports, but rather their jobs". He is truthful, I have noticed the men really love to 'shop talk' at work and they all seem to bond in that manner. Then I asked him, "Is it possible for you to get 3 or 4 of these 'techie' brethren to get together and do some genealogy and have them teach YOU how to do genealogy??" He said he is willing to try. To me, it's just crazy to see the men so uninvolved with service towards one another and also keeping up on their Ministering duties. I think I need to talk to the bishop myself, but I feel it is out of my calling. Maybe someone can help me know better, it's open for advice and discussions. Lol.
I meant shop talk at church. I thought I saw that I had put that word in their, but I'm on my phone... I'm pleading the 5th. Lol. I just can't imagine "auto correct" changing the word "church" to "work", but hey, who knows, right?! 😆
If you build it, they will come. To quote an old movie line I think applies. I think the issue is timing and scheduling. Everyone has something else going on it seems sadly. But I would recommend pushing him to set something up on a Thursday evening or Saturday morning perhaps. Pickle-Ball might be another option to get more turnout. Our ward and another I know purchased a net and one ward plays regularly. Maybe you could also talk to some other wives to find a few other men who might be interested. I think the key though is to have him set up an activity, then the second and third man to join really get things going by psychologically showing others it’s good or worth it sort of thing so even more feel comfortable going.
This is great! Change will happen as men (and women) begin hosting their own activities and attending those hosted by others. We shouldn't rely on the church or any other organization to do this for us. Connection requires time, effort, and sacrifice on the part of each individual; there is no way around it.
I'm a current Elders Quorum President, and I will say that the last time I floated the idea of a 'men only activity' it was squarely shot down by Brethren in the quorum who said, "If my wife or kids, or both, cannot come to the EQ activities then MY WIFE will not allow me to attend." Any man that tries to be assertive by voicing his needs in many instances is accused of 'domineering' or 'controlling'. Whatever the answer is, we need to figure this out quick, because adult men are suffering and there are too few hands to help life them up.
That’s the problem men are too wussies and pander to their wives. It’s should not be “if my wife allows me”. It should be you’re going and that’s final. But that’s “toxic masculinity “ but yet these same women complain of feminine men. Feminine women are attracted to masculine men. Men are leaders by nature women are followers by nature. Stop trying to change the wheel.
This is a good example of unrighteousness dominion being practiced in families and not by the husband/father/priesthood holder. Swap the genders in this example and can you imagine the outcry that a man is not "allowing" his wife to attend a RS activity? Where is the needed unity and complementary relationship in marriages within the church?
That makes me sad to hear. I always encourage my husband to go. Personally I avoid women only conferences and the weekly RS meetings. I get really annoyed that women only stuff is pushed. I don't enjoy hearing women and their primary voice when speaking. Give my strong, logic and doctrine please.
Safety: It makes sense. Patrick Lencioni (Business Author) puts Lack of Trust as the 1st Dysfunction of Team. If you don't have Trust you can't have Conflict, Commitment, Accountability or Results. The path to trust is Vulnerability and it takes courage to take that risk.
"Get outside" LOVE IT!!! I was in a Zoom training with a member of the Young Men General Advisory Council nearly a year ago. Craig Ballard was conducting the training. He said, "The Church left Scouting. We didn't leave camping."🤯 The current guidelines from the church is this, as leaders our goal is to have our young men on 6 campouts a year. As a member of the SYMP, we have planned 3 at the Stake level and 3 need to happen at the ward level. I can tell you the this, people are busy, but the apathy is a real problem. It may be a little bit of disinterest, but it's a problem. I have tweeked brother Ballard's statement since hearing it by adding my own take....camping is really just another way of saying, get outside. Disconnect. Touch some grass. If my name isn't a dead giveaway, going outside is easy for me. For others, not so much. I'm grateful for discussions like this and the Church's efforts to right the ship and get men back on course.
Just over a year ago, my Mom had a stroke. I made a comment about my Mom and how much it hurt. All of the elders (about 30+) all walked out with not a single word of support... NOTHING. And, good heavens! $595 for the Warrior Heart Retreat? I actually had hope for a moment just like in my elders quorum. For someone with PTSD, anxiety disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder, just dealing with life itself is a DAILY STRUGGLE. I don't need "hearing" ears. I'd like to have listening ears. Life simply sucks.
Thanks so much for your sincere comment. I recently had a similar experience but I stuck my neck out and wouldn't put up with it by directly challenging the men to respond then and there. Although I am just a regular Quorum member, not a Quorum leader, a few thankfully responded, which I appreciated. I think that almost all men actually really do care and that they have good hearts, but they need leaders who encourage the group to communicate altogether in a safe way. Hopefully you will hang around and help inspire the group on how to listen and respond. I suspect that there are those you will help. It will take courage to be part of the solution, but you can do it. I can tell that you have the skills. In the meantime, I care about what you are experiencing, my friend.
I can think of at least one conference talk that says... "you dont need ME time"', I agree with you all on this topic.... This is a major topic in which the church leadership has led us astray!!!
I feel like the reason why we feel a connection with nature because it is the pure works of God. When we live off the land we are acknowledging our dependence wholly on God. In much the same way when Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt to be fed and nourished on water and bread provided by the Lord. Babylon is really good at making us forget God and escaping to the river, the mountains, the beach etc. brings us back into rememberance
I hold the opinion that A man cannot be praised or admired for being gentle, if he is incapable of being anything else. Virtues like Kindness, gentleness, meekness and peacefulness are possessed only by those men who choose to express and act out those characteristics while at the same time being capable of dominating and overpowering those around them. Strength (physical, spiritual, and mental) allows the exercise of agency. Weakness limits our agency by placing us in subjection to those stronger than us.
@@bryanhaycock672 I think gaining respect as a leader (where everyone is an armchair quarterback/critic) is tougher these days, but can be achieved with good, consistent leadership and taking input from those around you and acting on it, thereby showing others you value their contribution. Having time with subordinates to where you get to be "people", and appreciate each other and see each other as humans beyond a work facade is a great way to show that you care about them. Backing them up when they need help shows you that you support them.
Awesome! Thank you for keeping the conversation going. There seems to be an outpouring of inspiration regarding these subjects. I have seen so many men actually rise up and overcome. They are figuring it out. :).
Excellent discussion. I think this goes far to diagnose, but the solution needs to be drastic. Men aren't just spiritually sick, they are dying. We're beyond cough medicine, we need emergency surgery. I hope every man in the Church leadership hears this episode.
Jordan Peterson would be happy to know you two watch his lectures. I'm curious what he would say after a deep analysis of our culture and the treatment of men within. I believe he would find out that not only do the men of the Church experience all the same issues that most men experience; but even more, with the pressures to be actually worthy of the Priesthood and serving missions while seeking a wife and being an actual father in the home. The pressures to be a man or men are even greater within our Church. This is never discussed.
Okay, just partway in but why in the world are you using the term "toxic masculinity?" I don't think we should be giving lipservice to an ideology that emasculates men because in this sick Western Culture, anything masculine is considered toxic and shameful....to the point where men don't feel they can be normal. I'm glad my wife is a member from the Philippines who wants to treat me with respect and in return, I give her what she wants and needs. Most of these crazy Western women are so entitled and men are only as good as their paycheck.
You’re taking it out of context. To ignore that culture uses this term as a weapon is to put your head in the sand and to be blind to the enemy’s tools.
Malevolent compassion is a kind of mirror-image of what it really is. It really is the worship of victimhood, and then insisting on compassion for anyone who claims to be a victim, without judgement of whether their suffering is meted out as a just measure for their deeds or not. (see also D&C 98:23) Tough love is a masculine attribute.
It's such an important thing to talk about. Thank you both for covering this topic. I have a renewed commitment to become a better leader... in my home, in my ward, in my work, etc.
I'm about 13 minutes into this when I remembered something. I immediately watched the RUclips of Tennessee Ernie Ford singing "His Eye is on the Sparrow".
I shared the three things men need with my husband, and he totally agreed. I know he has struggled over the years. We are currently figuring out ways to help our ministers be better at ministering. It's another couple our age. They have a daughter and grandkids living with them and so do we. They are just so busy with life, ministering gets pushed out. One day she mentioned how bad they've been doing. So, a few days later I asked if she could watch our grandson while I did something for my calling. We hope to invite them to dinner soon. My husband is currently a counselor in the Elder's Quorum. After your last post, they had an activity. My husband was the leader of the activity and arranged for the men to decorate cakes. He said the usual men were there, but they seemed to have a good time. The second part of the activity was to have the women judge the cakes the next day after church, and then the ward had a cake eating party. I'm not sure how he thinks it went over with the other men, but my husband thought it went well. Another thing they are doing in EQ, instead of just regurgitating the conference talks, they have trained the instructors to find the doctrine the talk was based on, and give a lesson based on that doctrine, leaning on the talk a little. They have had deeper discussions this way.
I think a a serious hole had been left when church left the Boy Scout program. While I do agree that the Boy Scout program had made significant departures from the values of the church, there was a lot the Boy Scout program that promoted good positive traits to be nurtured in boys that come out when they do become men. I also noticed that, when the young women had their New Beginnings program, the young men were brought to view the event. I did, however, notice that when it came to the Boy Scout Courts of Honor, we would only see young women who were sisters. I felt that while it was important to celebrate the young women in their achievements, I found a significant lack of interest in the achievements of the young men.
Great discussion looking forward to Part 3. You should run discussion groups there are many men in the church that need to have this discussion. Boot Camp Style might get more engagement.
I like him as a role model, but I actually think Mormon is a more relatable one for modern day men. All of the other church men around him were weak and lacking in values, yet his father was strong and raised him up differently. He then raised Moroni up differently as well.
Your take on fighting counterfeit battles on comment boards was eye opening to me. Thanks for this whole video. Looking forward to the day church basketball comes back!
Masculine without toxic masculinity. Our Masculine activities are how we should be approaching God; love that concept. We don’t need to be Vikings; raping and pillaging. Ladies should be learning their roles and functions in Relief Society while we men learn ours in EQ.
Enjoyed this video Greg. I’ve got so many thoughts on this I can’t even begin. Elders quorum is by far the most diss functional and ignored part of the organized church. We meet twice a month for 40 minutes and hear Missionary stories. If your over 50 you have no voice. We haven’t had any type of function in 2 years. Wait,! We did start a bicycle group.
I loved a recent elders quorum class we had. One brother talked about how the LDS needs to stop acting like it’s the only path to salvation (even saying that Jesus pretty much wasn’t needed for everyone) and another was boasting about how his father in law announced he would be presenting as a woman now, divorcing his wife of 40+ years, and how proud he was to go to the temple in his true body dressed as a woman. No, I am not joking or exaggerating. This is what’s become of the men of the church. And yes, you better believe that I kindly opined against both apostates (the satanic ideologies, not the brothers) that spoke by quoting doctrine and even the Family Proclamation. The sad thing, they hold teaching and EQ positions in the church, we’re so screwed.
And now all they do for the lesson is to discuss certain general Conferences talks (which are selected from the top - either Stake or First Pres level - who knows?), which just feed into the very basic milk / niceness/ Teddy Bear Jesus mantra....... while ignore all the hard topics & discussions.
“Insecure Overachiever” is a pattern I have seen a lot in the 45 and younger men around. In fact the one man who first shared the article has left the church because he wasn’t finding what he wanted. These are highly motivated, ambitious men but also burnt out, never feeling like they’ve done enough, like they are good enough. They are afraid of offending people, afraid to call each other out and so conflict simmers. I wish I knew the answer, it seems pervasive where I am.
Having too much church responsibility caused my mother's family to break apart, since my grandfather had all these priorities from the church, but my grandmother was a convert and didn't know what to do about her loneliness as she developed mental and physical illnesses
@@RichardChappell1 well, my grandma had autism but wasn't diagnosed. she only wanted a divorce because it was the trend at the time, and she could not take care of herself in any capacity until she died in 2014
thank you. i needed this. but i'm no elder's quorum leader and don't know where to go from here. i am the nice guy. I'm very rude by way of ignorance or honesty, but generally i lean more into toxic passiveness.
I have three sons. I tried to be a good LDS example and I worked all the time. My goal was to take my five kids to Church every week to see how all kinds of LDS people act. They gained strong testimonies of the gospel Went to college got good jobs and made a lot of money. They also had each other to lean on and would go to Iron Man events and things like that together or with similar friends for fun. They learned how to cope with life. Not everybody liked them so what! They could handle that. One of them called me on my answering machine and told me he just killed somebody. No problem he was given a blessing and a lot of time off. One of his brothers is in similar work as a clinical psychologist and helped him out a lot. The Feds sent them overseas. One a lot to "take care of business" and the other one was paid about $1000.00 a day for a little assignment in Afghanistan. They have no problem being men. One of them goes to the Conference Center sometimes on assignment. He's always packing. In his line of work you always have enemies and as an LDS guy that's not a problem!
Can you share the survey that the EQP instructor used to get those answers when he taught the lesson? The reason I would like to do something like that in out EQ meetings. Thank you.
There are people within the church that seem to view masculinity as offensive to the spirit. That if one isn't effiminate, then they aren't true disciples of Christ or worthy of the priesthood. No where in the scriptures does is it taught that being effiminate is the epitome of being a disciple. In fact, people that teach that masculinity is a sin are false teachers of hell. As the bible teaches, effiminate men will not inherit eternal life. Read 1 Cor. 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: ...nor effiminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Joseph Smith was the 100% complete opposite of an effeminate male, who had more ability to tune into the spirit than any man to have lived after him. Woke men and women are evil, period, change my mind.
Hey Greg, you mentioned that niceness is not a virtue but kindness is. Can you describe or point to resources that help delineate the difference between niceness and kindness? Thank you for all you do, love your show!
I think we need to be doing more in terms of getting together for meals as a church- in my opinion it’s the easiest and one of the most effective ways to even start bonding with other members. We also need to establish more traditions in the church to help bring us together. We were told Easter needs to be our biggest holiday and I really appreciate the Catholics and ALL they do in preparation for this season. This is the list I have come up with and hopefully it continues to grow. Palms Sunday: Take palm leaves and decorate the family bible or cross. Holy Thursday- Washing feet, Candlelight Dinner, sharing of the final supper (remember the rods command to love one another) Good Friday: Fast. Wear black. Read the story of the passion. Burn incense. Jesus was on the cross from noon to 3. Visit a grave. To rejoice in the resurrection you must first grieve the death. adults in our family usually watch the passion. Easter Sunday: Church. Bright colors and sunday best. Easter Egg hunt Easter Egg decorations Family Dinner- A great feast traditionally involving some form of pork to celebrate the cleansing of the gentiles. As well as Lamb to symbolize Jesus. Sunday night: fireworks at church to celebrate the resurrection We should also make use of those stages in church for once and have a play about the last week of his life. Or put together Easter parades. I found this to be an inspirational watch ruclips.net/video/Y3X1S_BgOec/видео.html
@Orin learns everyting I hear you but also cliques are natural. People always gravitate towards similar people - repeated exposure to others at church will help break the ice and create comfortability which takes time.
@Orin learns everyting this is the kind of negativity that disables dreamers, planners, volunteers, and optimists. My ward is full of them. And my ward is boring. Boo👎 You don’t have to come to the ward party, Orin. Just stay in your corner, and read RUclips comments. Hey, I’m just trying to help you learn *everything*.😅
When talks in Conference *NEVER* address how to set realistic, healthy boundaries and how to maintain and defend those boundaries, NO WONDER we have a problem in the Church. Avoid conflict and/or confrontation?! REALLY?! I would love to have Conference talks that teach us, especially men, what Mr. Rogers introduced: “What do you do with the mad that you feel?” We also need to be taught HOW TO HANDLE conflict and confrontation. There are healthy, Christlike ways to face uncomfortable situations. Avoiding it altogether is weak and afraid. Passive aggression is a big problem in the Church with both genders. To tell someone to suppress their anger or wild side, that’s like telling someone to not be gay, to not watch porn, or to not judge. 👎 -totally ineffective-👎 All of these are knee-jerk reactions to the human condition. HOW do I release my anger in healthy, safe, even productive ways? HOW can I appropriately manage my gay proclivities? HOW can I be confident in my worth to not be addicted to porn? HOW can I be fair, honest, wise, and gentle in my judgements? I enjoyed this video.👍
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Thankfully there are many resources we can turn to on an individual basis to learn how to do each of these things. The answers shouldn't necessarily have to come from church leaders.
@@TheArtOfNurturingHeartsyou are right, BUT 90 percent of the members take every word as the end all be all. They cannot think for themselves. They look to the elders for everything in their life and that's the problem. There is help outside of it but they refuse to see that.
I believe, from personal experience, that the connection problem will only be overcome as men and women take personal responsibility for creating their own connections and stop expecting someone else to do it for them. Many men and women are deciding to take personal responsiblity in this area, which is so exciting to see! Change is on the horizon---I can feel it!
It’s easy for church leaders (men in their 40s, 50s and on up) to focus on “teddy bear” Jesus because of one simple reason among others: age makes men weepy. Many of them are at a life stage where their contribution is based more in consideration of others than productivity/output. I’ve been on the receiving end of bad advice from mentors in my sphere, putting down my ambition and lecturing me for not being other-focused enough. It’s a frustrating deviation from true principles I do agree with
Interesting point I hadn't thought too much about. I think also this is a nuanced topic. Men who have already been through their own battles look at younger generations and feel a range of emotions as they become spectators who have seen the battle before. But your right, there are plenty of Teddy-Bear Jesus references...the church needs men to tap into the side of Christ that calls people to step up. Christ helped rescue Peter after faltering while walking on water, but he still called out his lack of faith. He often rebuked his disciples, such as when Peter wanted to deny having his feet washed. These moments illustrate the type of energy that men need to take on more often. Not to condemn, but to call forth.
It would be great if you have Brett McKay from the art of manliness. He is a lds too and he has one of the best books on what makes a man "devotionals" is called the book
While there are women who "don't need a man," there are a LOT of us who DO want to find someone and create an eternal partnership and a family, who don't want to go through life alone. What is missing is the MEN! Active, single women in the Church outnumber active, single men in the Church by an appalling ratio. In the young singles' wards I attended, there were about twice as many women as men. After "aging out," there would be about 4x as many women attending mid-singles' activities as men. Now that I'm in the "adult singles,' group, there are 8-10x as many women as men. But this disparity is treated frequently with a shrug and a "Oh, well, what can you do? At least you'll be able to find someone in the next life" attitude; or you hear a General Conference talk expressing sympathy to the unmarried sisters, but nothing to address or resolve the disparity.
Isn’t it up to the individual to repent, change and return? It’s difficult to create desire in another. Personal ministry is the best answer, but again, it’s up to the Individual to accept.
@@kristinrichmond8185 Of course it's up to the individual, but WHY are they leaving in the first place? And why is it so readily shrugged off? I definitely know how hard it can be for the single sisters to stay active, but is something making things so much harder for the men?
@@downtime86stars17 it’s both difficult and easy to answer. Hahah. They leave because they lack their own faith filled testimony of Christ and his teachings. Easier to leave than to dig deep and develop and exercise faith. I’m sure this is too simplistic, but it’s all I’ve got. I don’t see it as being shrugged off. I think local leaders do care when members leave. I care every time a family or individual leaves the church. I do what I can to show love snd friendship, however it’s up to them to make the choice to return. We’re constantly being taught to live with the Holy Ghost and how to achieve that. I don’t see leaders shrugging it off, there is only so much they can do. I also have considered lately that there is still the option for a righteous woman to seek a righteous man not of our faith. I understand that this isn’t ideal, but if a woman wants to be married, this IS an option.
@@kristinrichmond8185That's probably part of the problem, but I've also seen precious little support for the adult (over-31) singles. In one ward, the person in charge of the ward bulletin wouldn't let me list upcoming singles' activities. Our stake singles' committee wanted to have a meeting with representatives from the bishoprics to discuss how we could help singles want to come back. Out of ten wards, only two of the bishoprics sent someone to attend. I've tried several times to ask various RS and EQ presidencies for help to reach out to inactive singles and was ignored. The stake I've been in for the last 10+ years had NO singles' committee, no activities, and we were told to go to other stakes for activities. I had one bishop (in this same stake) who told me he didn't have the time to be bothered with the singles. And what a surprise, in that stake, only about 3% of the singles on the rolls were active. They just redrew our stake boundaries so maybe the new one I'm in will be better, but based on the experiences of the past 25 years, it's hard to be hopeful.
I'm a recovering alcoholic and very familiar with the 12 steps. Where are the 12 steps that Kurt referred to? I've just been called into the elders quorum pres. and can't thank you enough for part 1 and part 2 of this podcast. I am also a fan of John Eldredge. I've read Wild At Heart and given away many copies to help other men in need.
Kurt clearly binges on Jordan Peterson. Mentorships would go a LONG way, and stated, even just to hear a few stories of real life, ESPECIALLY the struggles goes a long way.
I shared Part 1 with my ward council. It was generally received well. The RS president didn't really understand your "nice guy is bad" point. She said her friend's ex was a selfish jerk who often left the family to go hunting when he needed to be nicer. That means the correct semantics are being lost on many. Perhaps you could relabel it to be more clear, and re-explain the difference between good nice guy and bad nice guy. Please keep up with this topic. Thank you!
@@CwicShow That's exactly what I told her. I'm thinking perhaps good labels for both might be "confident kindness" and "false niceness" or something similar.
I have noticed that many women have a hard time comprehending/understanding things that challenge their perception. This is especially true when it comes to men's issues. The disconnect is mind boggling.
30:44 My Elders Quorum lesson a couple weeks ago touched on the masculinity spectrum, and because most of the quorum is made up of senior men, they came to a consensus that “men these days” are too soft and basically surmising that men just need to “rub dirt on their wounds” and just ignore their pain because that’s what being a man is. That’s when I erupted to call out that way of thinking because as a younger husband/father I have seen how wrong and hurtful it is for men to deny themselves their feelings and the need to discuss their pain.
I think older men respond the way they do because that was their example of masculinity when they were young like you. I don't believe that men should ever deny their pain, but there are appropriate ways to express the pain and if we express that in settings that are too open we could be perceived by others to be less masculine and more feminine. I personally guard my feelings but I never deny that I have them.
I think it's kind of interesting to talk about the culture changes and the negative impact on men and then discount the guidance those senior men not dealing with the issues are giving. I suggest that it's not really "rub dirt in their wounds" as it is recognizing what things you can deal with vs what you can't and having the wisdom to deal with them appropriately. I am one of these senior men and I've never felt the need to deny any feelings, but don't feel any need to discuss them if it doesn't help the situation. For example, look at a lot of men who are out doing physical work - they get nicks and dings in their hands and arms, and when you ask them about them, they couldn't tell you what happened because they were busy, and the particular nick, cut or scratch wasn't a big issue so didn't need to interrupt the work. Dwelling on the stuff you can't do anything about isn't incredibly helpful - what is helpful is learning to recognize those. I feel like that seems to be the bigger problem today. Dwelling and rehashing those issues you can't do anything about adds to the frustration and creates a far greater sense of despair.
@@stevehumble8865 I believe it also helps cope with aging and younger men being able to do what they no longer can. Everything is so bubble wrapped the older guys in church have no idea what the younger guys are really capable of
@@RichardChappell1 I see your point, and I agree with your thoughts about the minor "nicks and dings" that don't really need to be addressed because of how fleeting those issues are. In those cases, yes, rubbing the proverbial dirt on it and moving on would be appropriate. To add a little more context to our discussion, the consensus made by some of the older men was in spite of serious issues that had been brought up, like witnessing a suicide and PTSD nightmares it caused. Other comments made were "Kids have their mom to get love and affection. That's women's work". These ideas were being affirmed as the right way for men to be, which I disagree with because I don't think those paradigms represent the type of men the Savior and the Brethren instruct us to be like.
I can see where you are coming from but I'm not an older guy and love the Idea of rub some dirt in it. I think it's misunderstood sometimes and I wasn't there in your elders quorum so excuse my ignorance.. With my experience growing up and being raised by a cowboy, rub some dirt in it is simply suggesting that "yes, you are having a hard time, don't waist time complaining about it, get up and take steps to do what needs to be done, get the proper help if needed but stop complaining about how hard things are if you are not actively doing something about it, don't be a victim.. In other words, the dirt will stop the bleeding until you can get proper help but the help is most likely not going to come with you sitting here, sad about whats happening. By all means, talk about your feelings if thats what needs to be done but there is a fine-line between complaining and bringing others down and actually talking through a problem.. If you don't want to actually do what needs to be done to fix it, then you probably don't need to talk about it...
@@rolandsmith4394 “not for peace sake” used example of elder oaks, elder Irving when the disagree, you seem to be focused “conflict” equals anger, he clearly talks how not being disagreeable, president Nielsen does not mean eliminating conflict, he talks about removing ugliness and anger.
@@CwicShow I went back and listened again, hoping for some seed of agreement. (No transcript yet) Nelson said all contention is evil at 1:36:50 and implied it at 1:33:40 and 1:45:40. I will stand with and for Christ in all situations, even here. A war began in heaven. It rages today. There are grievous wolves in His church. I will not yield. I have been, I am, and I will be a Christian soldier. I will not yield to any man, Russ, you, Greg, or anyone, ever.
This is a problem that goes beyond our church's. This is a cultural problem, and one that very well may lead to the end of America. Our enemies are "at the gate", and they smell weakness, because they see very few men. One need only look at our military recruitment ads... And role models? Where? Who? And, to co-op the "What is a Woman" documentary, what is a man today?
True. Modern warfare = the intentional weakening our society via drugs, porn, addiction, broken families, loss of masculine/feminine roles, lack of identity, unresolved trauma, weakened military
I love this you guys! First off, there is NO toxic masculinity, there is just simply being a rotten individual.. Men do it AND Women do it.. Second, Don't back track on what masculine activities are. Some things are masculine and some things are not and if someone is saying "well, I just don't like doing those things" to all masculine activities, then the answer might be that they are not masculine.. There is a fine line, It's my opinion that we can't tell men that stamp collecting or video games are masculine actives. They may be enjoyable hobbies but thats all.. I might even suggest that attending (to watch) sports events is not masculine; the sport itself might be masculine but watching other men do it probably doesn't constitute as such; the caveat here is getting together with your group of friends and bonding over the game probably is.. To me, masculine is being rough and tumble with your kids, doing dangerous or risky things (or things that are not always safe and comfortable), learning physical skills, standing up for what is right even in fear. In the church, we do mention that it's our job to "protect" our families.... how on earth can any man think they are equipped to do so if they don't know how to deal with discomfort or even knowing how to fight...or... are we ALWAYS talking about protect in a spiritual sense, like protect your kids from xyz spiritual danger? But really, loved hearing this, I feel like we talk in circles about NOTHING in elders quorum and this was refreshing. Thanks!
What use to be great is being in a GC Priesthood meeting and seeing nothing but great men trying to be the best priesthood holders they could. They took away church sports, Arronic Priesthood memorial campout, told the Brethren that they had to take it all from their wife while enduring to the end. And making the church favor the woman's organizations in and out of the church. It's time for the pendulum to swing back the other way so their is balance.
How should men be? Long suffering. Gentle. Meek. Kind. Humble. Filled with charity. Virtuous . And if they do so their confidence will wax strong before God. In the end those good men will become the mentor that younger men will look up to for the remainder of their lives whether they hunt, are into sports or maybe who like to write novels, poetry, or take long walks in the woods to think about and appreciate the creations God has provided. They will become the kind of man that women will want in their life i.e. trusting good men who lead out with kindness. Obtaining the virtues of Jesus and yes, gosh, even Mr Rogers, will bring men to a place where they shall feel no shame before God. These are the very virtues that give the priesthood the power to act in the name of God. Latter day scriptures teach men how to be leaders and how to become more like God. Women love kind, gentle men filled with charity. Together they lead their families to a better and higher place. Thank goodness for scriptures that teach men how to be men through gentleness, meekness, kindness and by becoming long suffering. I know good men like this within and without of the Church. Latter day scripture Sec 121 gives men the map to follow. Men without hypocrisy and without guile who would never exercise control or unrighteousness dominion over any one living soul. Those are the good kind hearted men that Heavenly Father needs today to help bring Heavenly Fathers children back to Him. Thank you !
It's about not saying or more importantly not doing anything that would be considered detrimental to the Church, it's doctrine or it's leaders. Maintain a low profile. Follow the brethern. Be the good, dependable company man.
A LOT of these issues is addressed in a podcast called "The Happy Wfie School"....this woman does a serious podcast on the relationship issues we have in todays culture....please check it out
Talking about femininity might solve half the issue! I read a fascinating book talking about the psychology of boys and men. It said that while girls will try to be good for the sake of being good, men are motivated more by being good FOR someone special in their lives, often their mother, a female role model, teacher, etc, but it could be a male role model too. Someone who allows them space to be themselves, but leads by example. The book is called How to Raise a Boy by Michael C Reichert
When youv say "wilderness" do you mean the metaphorical wilderness mentioned in scripture? Kind of like the parable of the lost sheep in which the shepherd leaves the 99 and "goes into the wilderness". In that case going into the wilderness means to submit one's self to trials and testing
Men can go camping, Elders quorum can have once a month meetings. I asked the church to do that before covid. then during covid I put together man's group they could talk and they say they loved it through covid.
Honestly there are positive and negative aspects to all personalities which includes masculinity and femininity. We should ALL work on the negative aspects of our personalities. We should learn to be compassionate and empathetic but not be a doormat and know that compromising the truth is NOT compassion. We should learn to be assertive but not be a jerk. We need to learn that our needs are just as important as everyone else in the family while not being too selfish.
Please consider sharing more real-life, solid examples of masculine activities for individuals and for groups of men, examples not only of sports, but of all kinds of things. Consider sharing more concrete ideas. Perhaps we talk too much about the problem of current masculinity, where actually we may need inspired examples of what to actually do. What you are offering in these broadcasts on the topic is excellent, for absolute sure, but we need to go to the next step. If a man hasn't seen healthy masculinity growing up what does it really look like?
If you want more of this masculinity content, read (or listen to) Way of the Wild Heart or Wild at Heart. Both of those books are by John Eldredge and they are amazing.
Toxic masculinity, the term, is a Marxist/Feminist term. Stop using it. Give it a different name and talk about behaviors more. It's repulsive because we have been beat over the head in every possible format, politics, TV, Academia, advertising, etc.
If you ignore the tools of the adversary, you will lose. I’m not going to put my head in the sand. It’s not used here without referencing it’s source. You can put your head in the sand if you choose. Imagine going to a battle without knowing what the enemies weapons are. Or pretending they don’t exist. I’m not using the term to regurgitate it, I’m using it for awareness and contrast. Learn the difference.
@@CwicShow I appreciate that and I understand that. I enjoy your content as a subscriber. That said, it didn't come across as though you were delineating the difference. My head is definitely not in the sand. Just a little feedback. Thanks.
@@CwicShow By the way, my favorite episode so far has been the new member Dave. I have subscribed and devoured the content over there. His testimony is contagious.
This conversation totally reminded me of Jordan Peterson view of masculinity where you talk about taking the monster instead of never being capable of it. Have you watched hiss videos about taking the monster?
Need is dependent on what the objective is. A woman with a good career doesn't need a man to provide for her, but that doesn't mean she doesn't need a man in other ways. She needs a man to be fully fulfilled as a woman, she needs a man to reach her divine potential, her kids need a father for them to grow up as emotionally fit as possible. There should be no shame a woman admitting she needs a man, since a man also needs a woman. We need each other.
Ultimately fathers should have final say in big decisions in the family and that is a big part of what it means to preside. This happens after the husband and wife have discussed these big decisions together and considered each others view points. These talks on masculinity and femininity are interesting to me. I as a woman have the most common personality for a man but both my husband and I have masculine and feminine characteristics but we both have more masculine characteristics. Now I do try to work to be more empathetic and less angry because those are my weak points. Fathers should also work on these weak points to if they have them. I love that I am different though. I know being a parent is the most important thing any of us will do. I work part time while raising my boys and this would also be ideal for fathers too but certainly not to work more than 40 hours a week if at all possible.
Is Brett McKay from The Art Of Manliness website/podcast still an active member of the church? I would love to have him on to talk about this. He has done many interviews similar to this topic over the years. I like you Kurt, but you use a lot of therapy phrases. This topic would be a great recurring theme to return to, perhaps with other guests (Brett!), particularly with research or clinical experience for context of LDS men vs. every other kind of North American man.
In fact, it's effiminate to teach that there's no hell or damnation. Christ taught during his mortal ministry that there is a hell and that there is damnation. In fact, he directly told a certain group of people that they will be going to hell when they die and that they are children of the devil. That's masculine teaching by the master teacher himself.
Lots of great examples in American and World History as well. There is no shortage of positive role models. As individuals, we just need to seek them out.
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The biggest problem with men in the Church is that men are given responsibility, but not authority. We claim that we give men authority, but authority only exists if it is sustained, and it is not. For example, we are told that we “are to preside over” our families, but at the same time are constantly told that our wives are spiritually superior to us, so really, we should just follow them.
For another example, we are told that being ordained to the priesthood is important and that it is important to have a priesthood holder in the home, but we are also told, by our prophet, in the talk Spiritual Treasures, that while men require ordination to the priesthood in order to officiate in ordinances, women “are authorized to perform and officiate in priesthood ordinances” in the temple without ordination. Women also have both priesthood authority and power without ordination, and the only thing that stands in the way of a woman presiding in her home is her husband still being alive, but as discussed earlier, that doesn’t really matter, because the meaning of the word ‘preside’ as been changed to basically mean nothing.
In LDS culture this denigration of men has always been the case. I'm sure we all remember the joke, “They chose the Bishop by finding the most righteous person in the ward, and then call her husband.”, and we all laugh, but underlying that joke is the idea that women (femininity) are more righteous and worthy than men (masculinity).
This attitude even gets preached in General Conference when male leaders in the Church write entire talks about how men should avoid correcting their wives and instead follow their wives. The two examples that jump to my mind are Elder Larry Y. Wilson’s talk “Only upon the Principles of Righteousness” from 2012, and Elder Isaac K. Morrison’s talk “We Can Do Hard Things through Him” from 2022. Both of these talks focus on the importance of Men NOT leading their wives. I cannot think of a talk in a recent conference where wives were admonished to obey their husbands or as Elder Morrison put it “Listen to and heed the promptings of your” husband.
What other message are men supposed to take from the constant character attacks and minimization of our roles and authorities?
I refuse to believe that I, as a man, am inferior regardless of whatever is ever said or done anywhere at anytime. I feel the truth in my bones-- that I am a son of God.
This is so true in many ways. The men have always been held accountable for any degree of unrighteous dominion in the home. And we should be. Any unrighteousness dominion should be eliminated. I have yet to hear anything similar calls for the women to not exercise unrighteousness dominion in the family, though I see examples of it all the time in wards. I've seen women belittle and berate their husband in public church activities and never once heard any of the women called to repentance. In Heavenly Father's eternal plan of happiness, neither is the woman without the man nor the man without the women, in the Lord. We are supposed to be united equally and complimentary in guiding the family, with the huband and father presiding as directed by the influence of the Holy Ghost. Any degree of unrighteousness dominion by either the father or the mother can destroy the family unit and have eternal consequences.
Amen!
I think you are misunderstanding Priesthood authority and Priesthood Power. This is an issue women don't understand either. Priesthood authority is to act in God's name. This requires ordination. Priesthood Power is given up on the gift of the Holy Ghost. This means anyone, including our baptized 8 year olds, that are confirmed can speak with the power of the priesthood. Read 2nd Nephi. Women in the temple are set apart for that role but do not have Priesthood authority outside of that function. I honor my husband, and his spiritual capacity. I am not a woman that wants Priesthood ordination, but I certainly have been studying what blessings I have and blessings promised through our covenants.
@@tanyarobinson1146 yes, but that’s not how it has been preached from the pulpit in recent years.
I miss the Priesthood meeting after General Conf. on Saturday. My son and brother-in-law and myself would go to dinner after the meeting and it got nixed when my sister-in-law felt her husband spent too much time away from home and resented the time we took going to dinner. It was great bonding time for us and this Saturday evening watching the 3rd session, I decided to reignite that tradition with my youngest son. We're going to do our own thing, and I should've done it a few years ago.
While you can't control what takes place in your BIL's marriage, it's encouraging to see you making an effort to reignite the tradition with your son. It's little decisions like this that will lead to more connection within our culture. Connection is a choice, and your decision to connect with your son this way may lead to a generations-long tradition.
As a woman, I would love to see you do a podcast on the need for female femininity. It is a lost art in our society.
Can we please have a video on how young women can learn to be feminine?!!!!! As a young woman in the YSA I see way too much masculinity in the girls, and I catch myself falling into it as well 😬 can we please find someone to teach us ladies???? 😊
Yes
I second this!
This is a great question and comment. I'd like to see something on this as well.
I see women in the church of all ages very influenced by modern culture, what's fashionable, current trends, social media, etc. Disciples of Christ lead not follow. Not to be swayed by the world.
something I got out of this episode is that men need other men to learn masculinity, which I agree with. I think the same applies to young women, they need the example of other women (maybe older women who still embrace traditional feminine roles), to teach them and be their mentors.
As I am listening, it reminds me of the account of rogue elephants in a preserve in Africa. Park rangers noticed that there were a rise in rhino deaths. Something was going around killing rhinos for seemingly no reason... horns were left intact, etc. It turned out that there was a band of teenage male elephants that were going around and picking fights with rhinos and then goring them to death. Rangers realized that these elephants were all orphans, raised in the Park without any adult elephants to teach them how to be an elephant. As they hit puberty, these young males were full of piss and vinegar and they ganged up on anything that they could bully and kill.
The Solution: Bring in older adult male elephants to teach the young ones a thing or two.
The Park flew in older, larger, adult males and let them interact with the youngsters. The first time a young bull tried to shove his way around with the adult male, he quickly realized that he was no longer the big boy on the block. The large adult wrestled the young down and pinned him to the ground as if to say: "look son, that may work with rhinos, but that isn't going to work with me! I'm in charge now, got it?"
And as the young males were shown by the adults what it meant to be an elephant, and a male elephant at that, the rhino killings ceased.
Masculinity begets masculinity. And we really do need the older men to teach us younger men (I'm 45), and those younger than us... how to be men. How to lead. How to be righteous priesthood holders and leaders in our communities.
www.bbcearth.com/news/teenage-elephants-need-a-father-figure
Nice parallel.
It's almost like most men and women in prison grew up without a father figure.
I’ve got a comment about what men are going through in the church:
We see all the time comments about what men need to change or to get busy doing something, but there is never any comments or discussion about any problems with women or femininity. It’s a culture of one-way critical examination which can feel quite judge-mental and then total praise and acceptance in the other direction.
How about a conversation on what real femininity is and what men want and need from women.
As a woman, I would love to learn more about real femininity, and what masculine, faithful, God-loving men want and need from women.
Read this somewhere, advice for the wife;
“Never let your man leave the house hungry or horny.”
Truth
I love that you are talking about this issue. Men are in serious trouble right now. For whatever reason women's hearts have been turned ice cold towards men and rather than treating them with kindness and respect, they treat them as a means to and end often only valuing them for how successful they are in money and society. It's hard to be masculine, when every time you step into your masculinity, you are called out by your wife or some other woman, who has fallen for the lies of feminist. Over time men have just given up and just live their life without women. The church has not called the women out on their attitudes towards men. In fact if you look up talks about marriage, you will find that the majority of those talks tell men to be kind and gentle to their wives, but rarely do they tell women to be kind and gentle to their husbands. Everyone is afraid to stand up to the women in our society even women are afraid to stand up against their crazy sisters.
Exactly. Eternal relationships are only valued as monetary relationships. To be honest, some men started this by sending wives into workplaces.
Don't give up. I am a woman who loves and values a masculine man, who honors his priesthood. Some women don't realize how much they need a masculine man. It disgusts me when I see a wife putting her husband down. Men with strength offers security.
Amen. I’m pretty much teaching my sons to lead, be strong priesthood holders but not to expect much from LDS women anymore. I will encourage them (they’re young still) to date outside the church, the Julie Hansons and her ilk are not the kind of women men in the church need. The are much stronger women outside the church who love God and still love their men to act like men. This is more intended for the younger men, I’m happily married to a real woman who helps me realize my fullest potential, and I likewise encourage her. Almost like a sealed companionship as was intended.
Yes, a thousand times, yes.
@@sandeakilpatrick2386 appreciate the words but your last sentence boiled it all down. Security. What happens when Gadianton controlled govts and economies offer the facade of security while persecuting and oppressing those trying to live God's familial standards? Most women will jump ship to Uncle Sam I mean Sugar. Destroyed the Black family and the same play book is in work right now. Modern females have been taught to value security over liberty. Comfort and conformity over conviction.
I watched the first video and immediately recommended EQ only activities to my Bishop and EQ president. The Bishop loved the idea and pushed it in ward council. A lot of the women in there agreed, saying their husbands need that camaraderie in the church. I was inactive for about 15 years until 2020 and wondered why there wasn't any.
This is great!
I shared the first video with my Bishop and EQ Pres. Our Bishop hated it and he came to talk to me about it. Never heard any feedback from our EQ President about it.
@I Am that's unfortunate. I didn't share the video, I just suggested EQ only activities. Maybe try just asking about activities. The EQ has their own budget for a reason lol
@@iam8193 That's too bad. The question I would have for him is what is the overall well-being of the men in his ward?
I have directed this men in the church idea to 2 bishops, 2 different wards, maybe as a talk or 5th Sunday discussion. I got the feeling that they were afraid that it would cause talking problems between sexes.
I am a Deacon's advisor and I use the word "Duty" frequently. Somehow, this word seems to have become anathema in the modern Church culture. It's like we are afraid to offend these boys if we expect them to step up and serve missions, date, fulfill callings, prepare for their education, etc. Do we think that by walking on eggshells we will somehow do them favors? Say it like it is! Let them learn and understand their duty!
ive wondered where all the young mens responsibility went. when i was a deacon, i had flags every holiday, snow shovel assignments, fast offerings, taking the sacrament, manning the doors, scouts, even cleaning up chairs after activities. the young men in our ward outnumber mine by 3 to 1 and yet they never do service, they arent being taught to be men
Yes, it's modern culture as well. Schools and parents don't teach the word duty and what that means for family, God, country, community, church, anything good, virtuous, lovely or of good report.
Interesting how gang and mafia culture understands this concept and how important it is.
You are correct that duty seems dirty, undesirable, and a hassle nowadays. Shows how selfish and self centered society has taught people to be.
I love that word and wish we used it way more often. I used a photo of that said duty to God and Aaronic Priesthood as a image for a youth group text we use. But one of our advisors changed and it to a temple and our bishop liked it more. Even though the goal is the temple, I think that image we have now misses the message of stepping stones, or a process, or maybe a how too, or at least doesn’t convey the message that we are a group with duties.
Years of denigrating the young men, often by “innocent jokes” (“We men are such losers we have to rely on the sisters to get anything done, derp de derp de derp.”) from simps at the pulpit have reinforced the world’s war on boys and men. What other outcome would you expect?
I wonder if we've gutted the OPPORTUNITIES for developing a relationship between younger men and mentors/leaders by not allowing 1-1 time that gives them a chance to bond (in a proper way). We now mandate 2-deep men to any young men, which doesn't help with having a young man develop trust that lets them be frank or honest, or a young man to open up about some concerns without feeling like he's sharing it with a 3rd party as well. Or feeling a 2 adults-on-1 youth dynamic.
This isn’t talked about often, if ever, but it’s the need many have within our community for more platonic physical affection/affirmation from other men, more than just a handshake and bro-hug. We’ve “homosexualised” more intimate displays of affection between men in our culture to the point where we fear to give it or cringe to receive it. Those of us who need more physical affection from other men are left with a feeling of loneliness and disconnection from male peers because of this. I think we should adopt more of an Arab or Indian view of masculinity, in which more intimate displays of affection between men is perfectly normal and not considered homosexual at all.
Yes! This natural masculine affection is so needed in our society!
It takes time and trust. And too many men feel "attacked" these days and find it hard to be "vulnerable".
I could really care less about hanging out with EQ in the woods.... I just want to be able to talk about hard topics. I want our leaders to talk about hard topics. I feel our male leaders have been feminized in that they focus on the mercy and not the law of God. Yes there’s a balance but I just recall as a youth during priesthood session at conference the leaders used to rebuke us so often. I don’t ever hear topics like the pornography, fornication or the even more sensitive topics of lgbt or the fact that our youth are leaving at crisis levels. All I heard in conference is “all is well in Zion” and how well we’re doing. It’s like men are afraid to speak truth today. I get it though because we can lose everything if we aren’t woke at work and say the wrong thing. The new leftist secular religion is unforgiving and ruthless. I just want to be a part of a group that can be United on Gospel principles. Not to demonize those that struggle with the topics I mentioned but at least talk about it and root for those that are trying. Admit our faults and humility. Yes we are a hospital for sinners but we seem afraid to administer the medicine that is going to be uncomfortable but will ultimately he’ll heal those that struggle. We need a Jordan Peterson in the Church that will speak boldly and truthfully but understandingly.
I agree. I was left a little wanting from conference. The theme perhaps was to be nice. In this very month when we could expect an economic downturn, violence from virtue signaling groups, or hatred towards all Christian’s…we are to be nice. Got it. It is a good reminder when times do get bad perhaps but not what I was expecting from Conference.
I completely understand where you are coming from. But I heard something subtly different from “be nice”. The message I heard was “don’t contend” with your enemies. There are a number of reasons for this message at this time. We are living in the last days, not in the time of Moroni. Moroni, coming from a position of strength, lined up the enemies of the people and put them to death if they did not chose to get on board with the program.
We live in a very different time. Our enemies are rising in overwhelming strength against us. The enemies of God’s people today have unlimited resources both in terms of enforcement and punishment of those who contend against them. We have been commanded in the last dispensation to separate and gather together, and let the God of this earth fight our battles, even if needs be by fire out of heaven. But we lose this promise of protection if we contend one with another. If we choose to take up our swords after God has forbidden contention, he will let us die by the sword.
@@iam8193 I felt some of the same things, but being out on social media and dealing with difficult topics where political sides are taken, I've found that boldly going forward and keeping to topics, pointing out efforts to "shoot the messenger" over the message, avoiding name calling, calling a spade a spade, and being "real" and avoiding falling for partisan labels while dealing respectfully with others has led to (I believe) some level of respect by others, because I treat them with respect, even if I disagree. (I don't have to fall for the baiting that happens, but I can bring about good dialogue in a productive manner.) Standing on good principles also helps those who are usually quiet open up a little, but I also don't encourage flamethrowers on either side. I'll ask questions that might puncture the points they're trying to throw around, but I try not to come across sarcastic or put them down.
There's a lot to what Pres. Nelson said about courteous discourse, but not needing to be walked on or remaining in abusive relationships.
@@iam8193 I agree with what you said. I felt that Pres. Nelson's talk can be very easily taken out of context to mean that we shouldn't push back against the evils going on in the world but that we should just be nice guys and get along with everyone all the time. Don't offend anyone or hurt their feelings. That kind of thinking perpetuates the spiral of silence that Greg talks about so much. I wish he had backed up what he was saying about not being contentious with some caveats. There is certainly a time to be contentious. Christ's statements to the pharisees calling them hypocrites and a generation of vipers was very contentious as was his casting out the moneychangers. Peace at all costs is not a virtue.
I miss talking about the hard topics, too. There seems to be a fear that hard discussions will lead to individuals leaving the church out of feelings of shame. Seems to me like they are leaving the church in high numbers anyway. I'm all for bringing back the crucial conversations!
The church removed 8 leadership positions from men in every ward. Positions were removed at the Stake level as well. Then one of the men’s priesthood groups was essentially dissolved. You can’t help but feel this if you are paying attention.
Priesthood meeting used to be held at the ward level 2 hours every Sunday morning. General priesthood meeting was a big deal twice a year. The Church doesn't really value priesthood anymore. Jesus Christ called 24 apostles, every one of them were men.
I feel that when the church made this change, I understood the reason and hopes behind it, but I can’t help but feel we are worse off now. I keep thinking we still need to learn and adapt to the youths new four part goals, but they just suck really compared to Boy Scouts. I also think Bishops are to busy still and do not spend enough time with the youth as they’ve been instructed to do. Men want to feel valued in their wards but there’s only a small handful of callings now that help express that. Maybe that’s why they’ve shut off more and don’t minister even.
@@rolandsmith4394the church doesn’t value the priesthood anymore?
Crack is a powerful drug, isn’t it?
If I could add to this, after a few days of pondering this. If we are worse off now, it is because we as men are not using our agency in the new space that God has given us. We have ceased to be commanded in all things, and are being left now to step up and fill the role. Like a child without training wheels, this transition is bound to hurt a little, but we will be the independent, strong saints God needs for the last days. I feel it is comparable to the lower and higher law. Let us take our awareness of the problem and step up, be the change. I have felt like many of you, and only recently have began to take action, and it feels good my brothers. Love in Christ to all.
I should really change my profile picture before posting things like this lol
@@arbonransom8992 If I may ask, what actions have you taken?
prof jordan peterson said : learn to be a monster, then learn to tame it. that s masculinity.
I know I've had a tremendous desire to sit down and be able to talk and fraternize with older men lately. Being a young father who's trying his best to live like the Savior would want me, it's often difficult for me because my father never went to church with my family. He was a great example of hard work, but I've always felt a spiritual void as far as my masculinity goes. And I firmly believe that the pornography issues I dealt with in my teenage years and into my young adult years would have been far easier to overcome had I had a consistent spiritual father figure. The times that I did the best were times like when I had a close relationship with my bishop, or my mission president.
@@ruckin3 thank you for sharing that. Makes me want to do all I can for the young men I get the chance to influence.
I work from home 12+ hours per day. Lifting weights during lunch is what I look forward to most. Not because I’m an athletic guy or anything, but because I feel like I actually accomplish something. Clicking “send” on an email just isn’t as satisfying.
Then switch work
@@micmacc2014 Why, if what he is doing works for him?
In the April 1993 general conference, then Elder Faust quoted a journalist regarding the role of fathers in child development:
"'Studies show that fathers have a special role to play in building a child’s self-respect. They are important, too, in ways we really don’t understand, in developing internal limits and controls in children. . . . Research also shows that fathers are critical in establishment of gender in children. Interestingly, fatherly involvement produces stronger sexual identity and character in both boys and girls. It is well established that the masculinity of sons and the femininity of daughters are each greater when fathers are active in family life.'"
While the statement is about fathers specifically, I think it's only logical to assume that it comes down to something about men and how righteous masculine influence enables certain key developments in children. I guess I'm just curious about it-what it exactly means and what it is about men or masculinity that creates this influence, especially regarding the development of sexual identity in boys AND girls.
Wow! My hubby and I are in our 70s, married for 33 years, yet this discussion has helped me understand him so much better. Having a real paradigm shift here, and beginning to understand why he’s quiet sometimes, and what his inner struggles might be. Very helpful!
I have a feminist wife. She has suffered trauma from two prior marriages, and projects a lot of anxiety on me and tries to control my relationships with other people, to where I don't like to be around her much. I watched a movie with her recently, "His Only Son" about Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac. (EXCELLENT movie!)
Naturally the conflict over childlessness and Abraham being blessed as a father of nations leads into the decision for Sarah to give her handmaiden to Abraham for creating offspring. It's handled in a difficult and sensitive way (I know, opposites - watch it and see) and I wept the numerous times this was depicted, because Abraham was torn about accepting this handmaiden, because of his vows to his wife. I could feel the difficulty of what was to come, and the aftermath that would surely come as well. And this was portrayed very well, too.
I was dying to talk to my wife about so many spiritual parts of the movie and how it was portrayed, the EXCELLENT dialogue, the music, the difficulties of the anticipated sacrifice, etc., but knew where this was going to go.
When the movie ended I started to comment about how amazing the movie was, and a few steps later, my wife ripped into Abraham, labeling him as unfaithful, sex-starved, taking advantage, "he could have said no", etc. She said they were hard scenes, and I agreed, telling her I wept during them. She looked at me in shock momentarily, like "How could YOU possible understand what she went through?", and then continued to bash Abraham. I left silently as we approached her car.
I'm glad we came in separate cars.
It gave me time to think more about the many wonderful aspects of the movie, including portraying some difficult emotional and spiritual choices. Alone.
This discussion is so important. We do a great job of ministering to women, children, and youth in the church. If a man needs ministry that means he isn't good enough and too flawed to be around the righteous men. We know how to kick men while they are down so men are left to pretend that everything is OK.
You know what I love about God? How he will lead you from one thing to the next. I just got done listening to Wild at Heart before I heard these episodes and it's been great to hear other Latter-Day Saints talk about this book and how masculinity is lacking in the church b/c if I'm being honest I have felt so alone for the longest time and didn't realize that this was part of the reason. Not that I didn't know very masculine men within the church. I have indeed had to give myself permission to be what a true man is and it took me a long time to do that and to even realize that that's what needed to be done.
Captain Moroni is a big part of the BOM. These stories are a gift that we don't honor. We ignore Capt Moroni as a mentor at our own peril.
Yes! Nobody wants to cover the war chapters in the BOM. And, when it does come up in the CFM curriculum, it gets boiled down to metaphors for "being strong spiritually" or something similar, rather than actual valor in the face of life or death.
@@nathangreer8219true. We are ignoring the war around us, as well. There are forces without, and within the church that parallel the destruction of the Kingdom. These stories were included by Mormon *for a purpose.*
Even more so I’ve never heard anyone talk about the kingmen vs freemen and the division within the Church. If that’s not a mirror of what’s going on now o don’t know what is... but God forbid we get political and ruffle feathers....
@@mrmod123 Mormon saw our day. He included what we need to know and nothing else from a long and complex historical record.
@@ruckin3 @nathan greer we had a sister in our previous ward that would just skip over the war chapters when she read the Book of Mormon. Rather that chastising her, which would have done no good, I instead pointed out to my children the importance of those chapters in teaching is how to survive on our day both spiritually and physically. During lockdown my 25 year old daughter created a Title of Liberty banner we put up our on our front porch for months, and my 28 year old son made a Title of Liberty decal that he put on his car.
I'm a woman...a grandmother. I also raised a son and daughter alone. There is a conscious decision that mothers need to make when she is raising boys. Whether there is or is not a good masculine role model, it is upon the mother to provide her son (s) with experiences that will help him realize the man within him. I see this problem being discussed on this podcast as being a direct result of the "women's lib" movement as well a generation of permissive and apathetic parenting. It is not natural for children to sit at home, hour after hour in front of a TV, computer, tablet or phone. They NEED to be physically active. They NEED to be outdoors. They don't need to be forced to play sports but they must be exposed to activities and/or hobbies which put them outside and using their bodies. They must be taught how to use their hands! Fix stuff, be handy! I speak from experience. Yes, it can be quite difficult to raise a son, be it as a single mom or married. It doesn't matter. Mothers do have this responsibility. It is part of nurturing and raising up a child/children to be well rounded and capable.
I am weary of the excuses being given. It's quite simple, really. Just like most of the social issues today. Common sense is becoming a rare gem.
Well said.
Amen
"They NEED to be outdoors" "Fix stuff, be handy"- 100% agree. I have worked with the youth , 10-14 year old boys for the last 15 years in various capacities within the church and I can tell you right now; the boys that spent significant time outdoors WITH their fathers almost always stood out above the rest. I don't mean that dad was always at their sporting events, I mean, they were hiking, backpacking, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, camping.. WITH their fathers, not with him there as a spectator.. Second thing that had boys rise above the rest was the willingness to do WORK, not avoid it. Love your comment, thanks!
Men deeply want the respect of the men they respect. Let those men you’re close to know how much you respect them for all that they do - at work, in the ward, in their families, in the community - and the you will be amazed at the light that comes from them. Men work incredibly hard all the time, and most of us don’t get any acknowledgment for it. I’m blessed to have a business mentor who has done these things for me, and I’m able to do that for others too. There is a dramatic difference between those who can feel that authentic respect and those who don’t feel respected.
I want an episode of what you thought of Pres Nelson’s talk in conference. Like you’ve said, there is a difference between contention and conflict, but I think that many members are going to interpret Pres Nelson’s talk as telling us not to bring up sensitive topics because that is just going to foster contention. I fear it will put us deeper into the spiral of silence, and frankly it upsets me!!! We are a different Church from when I grew up.
It's hard to listen to a prophet's voice sometimes.
@@captainmoroni1776 I am going to listen to the Prophet, and guard against all unnecessary violence and contentiousness of spirit, while continuing to boldly speak out against sin, wickedness, and all things contrary to the teachings of God. I might even braid a whip and beat some wicked ass now and then, just like my non-contentious hero, Gentle Jesus.
There is a need for good principles to be taught to the world, and not necessarily in a gospel-only context. That's going to offend those who choose to take offense. (you can't satisfy Satan while standing on good principles, natch) But speak respectfully about difficult topics and try to facilitate courteous discourse. It's tough! (I try to imagine a principled grumpy old man who takes pride in his lawn and shares how to grow one, rather than tell people to stay off it.)
I agree with what you said. I found it difficult to listen to. I am someone who enjoys having political and religious conversations with coworkers and people and I'm able to remain respectful of others despite having different opinions. Respectful dialogue is greatly needed in our society and I think that is what Pres. Nelson was getting at, but his emphasis on avoiding contention is likely to result in people in the church not talking about anything that might cause disagreement and continue or increase the spiral of silence that Greg talks about so much. I stated in a previous comment that I wish he had put a caveat in his remarks because there are times that conflict is unavoidable and then we have to face it head on and stand for truth.
Can't we admit that President Nelson had us squarely in his sights? It's hard to be called out like that but it's a great opportunity, too, isn't it?
We have had a group for a while, since the lockdowns, we call it "Garage Talk" where the first was in a garage and six feet apart, but a group to get together and have discussions about anything. What's interesting is the discussion almost always turns to that of the spiritual from anything and everything. I think there is power there; a time and location where a group of men can come together and realize that discussing the spiritual is not something just for the sisters, but rather an opportunity for us to check in with each other and find growth in a masculine way. Men need that opportunity to stand on their own and see what they stand for; doing so in a group of like minded men will help them to solidify what they stand for; allowing for the darts in the whirlwind to be struck down when the difficult times come. Great discussion!
Love this!
Absolutely outstanding. I was recently called to be the EQ instructor, and it has been the most frustrating, pointless, deadening thing I've ever done in the church.
lol
Respectfully interested as to why you feel this way. What experiences have you had to determine it to be this way? I completely understand everyone's experiences are different, but I have to say I have never experienced EQ like that..
@@andyg806 It's very much as described in this video: The men sit in two rows, and the ones in the back row are on their phones at least part of the time. A couple of others almost always go to sleep. There is usually a little discussion of my talk, but always by the same brothers. Most ever say anything. The time could be better spent by rigging a monitor and letting them watch the conference talks for themselves, and then go home. There are NEVER any activities other than the hour ever two weeks. I don't oeven know some of the fellows' names, and I rather suspect that's true for some of the others, as well. We are just going through the motions.
We’ve been conditioned for decades to be weak. Even in the Church, sometimes especially at Church.
So happy to see a part two to this discussion. I really enjoy listening to Kurt. Thanks for setting this up Greg
More young men need to be willing to branch out into sports. Developing yourself physically is necessary to developing and understanding the nature of your manhood. Mental/Spiritual health is very connected to physical health. There are so many different activities and wards tend to be really small to the point that finding someone who likes the same things can be hard depending where you live
I’d love to see more of our young men play rugby, soccer or basketball. All you really need is a ball. But last time I even suggested we play dodgeball, the suggestion was shut down because it’s too “violent”
Play on video. That would be acceptable to the gals.😂
Too violent? The church deserves to crumble. I’m over it.
I think what is easily called out in "traditional" masculine activities like sports or outdoors activities and shooting is the direct confrontation with competition in a healthy sense. Whether it's competition with the environment and being challenged to make a go of it in the outdoors or being able to hunt in the competition to be able to survive if needed, etc. I think music or the arts can provide the same sort of healthy competition in striving to overcome our limitations and demonstration to self first competency and capacity.
Admittedly, this is very simplistic in explanation, but i hope people understand what I'm trying to express. I think society has become so afraid of assertiveness that's borne out of unkindness, meanness or ignorance that society has become afraid of healthy assertiveness that's borne out of competence and confidence and some degree of moral certitude.
Currently raising my son to be masculine and my daughters to be feminine. There is hope out there for future generations! ☺
The book 'The Imtentional Father' is amazing for helping with this. It helps the father be intentional in his masculinity, in having a group of men, in knowing what his principles are, and in being involved in his kids life. It helped wake me up to the importance that the melchezidek priesthood has, what sort of man a priesthood holder should be, which led me to become converted to Christ and to want the same for my kids. Please, if this show sparks something in you, go read it, or listen to The Art of Manliness podcast episode about it at least
This is on my wishlist. Ordering today 👍
Hearing you guys speak about finding a false battle to believe in, I remembered this quote I heard last week, "Satan has a powerful tool to use against good people, it is distraction." - Richard G Scott "First Things First" April 2001
I appreciate this conversation!
I was noticing how my most quiet husband was really into March Madness a week ago. It struck me pretty hard in the sense that NONE of the older men in our ward play basketball!
So I asked him, "If there were some men at the ward around your age playing basketball, would you be willing to play?".
Now, he is a type 1 diabetic, but his answer was honest... je said, "I can't run around a court and get knocked down, but if there were men willing to play HORSE, I'd love to do that". He continued to expand on this by saying, "I mean, even if it was at one of the elders houses with a hoop, I'd love to get to know my fellow brethren that way, but all the men in the ward are 'techie' guys who don't seem to talk about sports, but rather their jobs".
He is truthful, I have noticed the men really love to 'shop talk' at work and they all seem to bond in that manner. Then I asked him, "Is it possible for you to get 3 or 4 of these 'techie' brethren to get together and do some genealogy and have them teach YOU how to do genealogy??" He said he is willing to try.
To me, it's just crazy to see the men so uninvolved with service towards one another and also keeping up on their Ministering duties. I think I need to talk to the bishop myself, but I feel it is out of my calling. Maybe someone can help me know better, it's open for advice and discussions. Lol.
I meant shop talk at church. I thought I saw that I had put that word in their, but I'm on my phone... I'm pleading the 5th. Lol. I just can't imagine "auto correct" changing the word "church" to "work", but hey, who knows, right?! 😆
If you build it, they will come. To quote an old movie line I think applies. I think the issue is timing and scheduling. Everyone has something else going on it seems sadly. But I would recommend pushing him to set something up on a Thursday evening or Saturday morning perhaps. Pickle-Ball might be another option to get more turnout. Our ward and another I know purchased a net and one ward plays regularly. Maybe you could also talk to some other wives to find a few other men who might be interested. I think the key though is to have him set up an activity, then the second and third man to join really get things going by psychologically showing others it’s good or worth it sort of thing so even more feel comfortable going.
This is great! Change will happen as men (and women) begin hosting their own activities and attending those hosted by others. We shouldn't rely on the church or any other organization to do this for us. Connection requires time, effort, and sacrifice on the part of each individual; there is no way around it.
I'm a current Elders Quorum President, and I will say that the last time I floated the idea of a 'men only activity' it was squarely shot down by Brethren in the quorum who said, "If my wife or kids, or both, cannot come to the EQ activities then MY WIFE will not allow me to attend."
Any man that tries to be assertive by voicing his needs in many instances is accused of 'domineering' or 'controlling'.
Whatever the answer is, we need to figure this out quick, because adult men are suffering and there are too few hands to help life them up.
That’s the problem men are too wussies and pander to their wives. It’s should not be “if my wife allows me”. It should be you’re going and that’s final. But that’s “toxic masculinity “ but yet these same women complain of feminine men. Feminine women are attracted to masculine men. Men are leaders by nature women are followers by nature. Stop trying to change the wheel.
This is a good example of unrighteousness dominion being practiced in families and not by the husband/father/priesthood holder. Swap the genders in this example and can you imagine the outcry that a man is not "allowing" his wife to attend a RS activity? Where is the needed unity and complementary relationship in marriages within the church?
Not all women are like this. We need RS activities and to commune with other women, it only makes sense that the men would need the same thing.
That makes me sad to hear. I always encourage my husband to go. Personally I avoid women only conferences and the weekly RS meetings. I get really annoyed that women only stuff is pushed. I don't enjoy hearing women and their primary voice when speaking. Give my strong, logic and doctrine please.
As a woman, I've always considered it important for men to gather with other men to form important connections.
Safety: It makes sense. Patrick Lencioni (Business Author) puts Lack of Trust as the 1st Dysfunction of Team. If you don't have Trust you can't have Conflict, Commitment, Accountability or Results. The path to trust is Vulnerability and it takes courage to take that risk.
"Get outside" LOVE IT!!!
I was in a Zoom training with a member of the Young Men General Advisory Council nearly a year ago. Craig Ballard was conducting the training. He said,
"The Church left Scouting. We didn't leave camping."🤯
The current guidelines from the church is this, as leaders our goal is to have our young men on 6 campouts a year.
As a member of the SYMP, we have planned 3 at the Stake level and 3 need to happen at the ward level.
I can tell you the this, people are busy, but the apathy is a real problem. It may be a little bit of disinterest, but it's a problem.
I have tweeked brother Ballard's statement since hearing it by adding my own take....camping is really just another way of saying, get outside. Disconnect. Touch some grass.
If my name isn't a dead giveaway, going outside is easy for me. For others, not so much.
I'm grateful for discussions like this and the Church's efforts to right the ship and get men back on course.
Just over a year ago, my Mom had a stroke. I made a comment about my Mom and how much it hurt. All of the elders (about 30+) all walked out with not a single word of support... NOTHING. And, good heavens! $595 for the Warrior Heart Retreat? I actually had hope for a moment just like in my elders quorum. For someone with PTSD, anxiety disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder, just dealing with life itself is a DAILY STRUGGLE. I don't need "hearing" ears. I'd like to have listening ears. Life simply sucks.
Thanks so much for your sincere comment. I recently had a similar experience but I stuck my neck out and wouldn't put up with it by directly challenging the men to respond then and there. Although I am just a regular Quorum member, not a Quorum leader, a few thankfully responded, which I appreciated. I think that almost all men actually really do care and that they have good hearts, but they need leaders who encourage the group to communicate altogether in a safe way. Hopefully you will hang around and help inspire the group on how to listen and respond. I suspect that there are those you will help. It will take courage to be part of the solution, but you can do it. I can tell that you have the skills. In the meantime, I care about what you are experiencing, my friend.
Losing a Mom hurts a lot. Peace and comfort to you.
I can think of at least one conference talk that says... "you dont need ME time"',
I agree with you all on this topic....
This is a major topic in which the church leadership has led us astray!!!
I feel like the reason why we feel a connection with nature because it is the pure works of God. When we live off the land we are acknowledging our dependence wholly on God. In much the same way when Moses brought the children of Israel out of Egypt to be fed and nourished on water and bread provided by the Lord.
Babylon is really good at making us forget God and escaping to the river, the mountains, the beach etc. brings us back into rememberance
I also struggle with the nice guy syndrome. I want to be like Captain Moroni but I’m more often trying to subdue the nice guy within.
I hold the opinion that A man cannot be praised or admired for being gentle, if he is incapable of being anything else. Virtues like Kindness, gentleness, meekness and peacefulness are possessed only by those men who choose to express and act out those characteristics while at the same time being capable of dominating and overpowering those around them. Strength (physical, spiritual, and mental) allows the exercise of agency. Weakness limits our agency by placing us in subjection to those stronger than us.
@@bryanhaycock672 I think gaining respect as a leader (where everyone is an armchair quarterback/critic) is tougher these days, but can be achieved with good, consistent leadership and taking input from those around you and acting on it, thereby showing others you value their contribution. Having time with subordinates to where you get to be "people", and appreciate each other and see each other as humans beyond a work facade is a great way to show that you care about them. Backing them up when they need help shows you that you support them.
Awesome! Thank you for keeping the conversation going. There seems to be an outpouring of inspiration regarding these subjects. I have seen so many men actually rise up and overcome. They are figuring it out. :).
I'm seeing men begin to take personal responsiblity and rise up, too, and it really is exciting to see!
@@TheArtOfNurturingHearts Yes! Thank you for saying that. It confirms what Im seeing! I get anxious to show and tell that this is happening.
Excellent discussion. I think this goes far to diagnose, but the solution needs to be drastic. Men aren't just spiritually sick, they are dying. We're beyond cough medicine, we need emergency surgery. I hope every man in the Church leadership hears this episode.
Compassion will always be applied right when we first love God, then our neighbor. We must have both, but in that order.
Jordan Peterson would be happy to know you two watch his lectures. I'm curious what he would say after a deep analysis of our culture and the treatment of men within.
I believe he would find out that not only do the men of the Church experience all the same issues that most men experience; but even more, with the pressures to be actually worthy of the Priesthood and serving missions while seeking a wife and being an actual father in the home. The pressures to be a man or men are even greater within our Church. This is never discussed.
Accountability builds manly character. At least, it used too.
Okay, just partway in but why in the world are you using the term "toxic masculinity?" I don't think we should be giving lipservice to an ideology that emasculates men because in this sick Western Culture, anything masculine is considered toxic and shameful....to the point where men don't feel they can be normal.
I'm glad my wife is a member from the Philippines who wants to treat me with respect and in return, I give her what she wants and needs. Most of these crazy Western women are so entitled and men are only as good as their paycheck.
You’re taking it out of context. To ignore that culture uses this term as a weapon is to put your head in the sand and to be blind to the enemy’s tools.
Malevolent compassion is a kind of mirror-image of what it really is. It really is the worship of victimhood, and then insisting on compassion for anyone who claims to be a victim, without judgement of whether their suffering is meted out as a just measure for their deeds or not. (see also D&C 98:23) Tough love is a masculine attribute.
It's such an important thing to talk about. Thank you both for covering this topic. I have a renewed commitment to become a better leader... in my home, in my ward, in my work, etc.
I'm about 13 minutes into this when I remembered something. I immediately watched the RUclips of Tennessee Ernie Ford singing "His Eye is on the Sparrow".
I shared the three things men need with my husband, and he totally agreed. I know he has struggled over the years. We are currently figuring out ways to help our ministers be better at ministering. It's another couple our age. They have a daughter and grandkids living with them and so do we. They are just so busy with life, ministering gets pushed out. One day she mentioned how bad they've been doing. So, a few days later I asked if she could watch our grandson while I did something for my calling. We hope to invite them to dinner soon.
My husband is currently a counselor in the Elder's Quorum. After your last post, they had an activity. My husband was the leader of the activity and arranged for the men to decorate cakes. He said the usual men were there, but they seemed to have a good time. The second part of the activity was to have the women judge the cakes the next day after church, and then the ward had a cake eating party. I'm not sure how he thinks it went over with the other men, but my husband thought it went well.
Another thing they are doing in EQ, instead of just regurgitating the conference talks, they have trained the instructors to find the doctrine the talk was based on, and give a lesson based on that doctrine, leaning on the talk a little. They have had deeper discussions this way.
Kurt, more men need to go to the boot camps! I went to the March one in Wanship. It was one of the best experiences I’ve had in a long time.
Thank you for addressing this! My husband has been working on NOT being a nice guy anymore and our marriage getting better!
“Iron sharpeneth iron; So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.” Proverbs
I think a a serious hole had been left when church left the Boy Scout program. While I do agree that the Boy Scout program had made significant departures from the values of the church, there was a lot the Boy Scout program that promoted good positive traits to be nurtured in boys that come out when they do become men. I also noticed that, when the young women had their New Beginnings program, the young men were brought to view the event. I did, however, notice that when it came to the Boy Scout Courts of Honor, we would only see young women who were sisters. I felt that while it was important to celebrate the young women in their achievements, I found a significant lack of interest in the achievements of the young men.
Great discussion looking forward to Part 3. You should run discussion groups there are many men in the church that need to have this discussion. Boot Camp Style might get more engagement.
I like to model my masculinity after Captain Moroni.
I like him as a role model, but I actually think Mormon is a more relatable one for modern day men. All of the other church men around him were weak and lacking in values, yet his father was strong and raised him up differently. He then raised Moroni up differently as well.
Your take on fighting counterfeit battles on comment boards was eye opening to me. Thanks for this whole video. Looking forward to the day church basketball comes back!
I believe EQ lessons and activities need to pursue this topic in a continuous and strong manner.
Masculine without toxic masculinity. Our Masculine activities are how we should be approaching God; love that concept. We don’t need to be Vikings; raping and pillaging. Ladies should be learning their roles and functions in Relief Society while we men learn ours in EQ.
It’s that middle ground that needs to be taught and learned; in EQ and from others. Father to son and friend to friend discussions
Enjoyed this video Greg. I’ve got so many thoughts on this I can’t even begin. Elders quorum is by far the most diss functional and ignored part of the organized church. We meet twice a month for 40 minutes and hear Missionary stories. If your over 50 you have no voice. We haven’t had any type of function in 2 years. Wait,! We did start a bicycle group.
Sorry to hear that.
I loved a recent elders quorum class we had. One brother talked about how the LDS needs to stop acting like it’s the only path to salvation (even saying that Jesus pretty much wasn’t needed for everyone) and another was boasting about how his father in law announced he would be presenting as a woman now, divorcing his wife of 40+ years, and how proud he was to go to the temple in his true body dressed as a woman. No, I am not joking or exaggerating. This is what’s become of the men of the church. And yes, you better believe that I kindly opined against both apostates (the satanic ideologies, not the brothers) that spoke by quoting doctrine and even the Family Proclamation. The sad thing, they hold teaching and EQ positions in the church, we’re so screwed.
And now all they do for the lesson is to discuss certain general Conferences talks (which are selected from the top - either Stake or First Pres level - who knows?), which just feed into the very basic milk / niceness/ Teddy Bear Jesus mantra....... while ignore all the hard topics & discussions.
“Insecure Overachiever” is a pattern I have seen a lot in the 45 and younger men around. In fact the one man who first shared the article has left the church because he wasn’t finding what he wanted. These are highly motivated, ambitious men but also burnt out, never feeling like they’ve done enough, like they are good enough. They are afraid of offending people, afraid to call each other out and so conflict simmers. I wish I knew the answer, it seems pervasive where I am.
It's a wide pattern in LDS Culture
How much did the loss of scouting effect this problem?
Having too much church responsibility caused my mother's family to break apart, since my grandfather had all these priorities from the church, but my grandmother was a convert and didn't know what to do about her loneliness as she developed mental and physical illnesses
plus, women are more naturally manipulative, and thus can make great assassins
I suggest there was probably far more invovled than that.
@@RichardChappell1 well, my grandma had autism but wasn't diagnosed. she only wanted a divorce because it was the trend at the time, and she could not take care of herself in any capacity until she died in 2014
I'm sure the motto of "home centered, church supported" has helped put more emphasis on where the focus is needed.
If only it was around during the 70s
thank you.
i needed this. but i'm no elder's quorum leader and don't know where to go from here.
i am the nice guy. I'm very rude by way of ignorance or honesty, but generally i lean more into toxic passiveness.
I have three sons. I tried to be a good LDS example and I worked all the time. My goal was to take my five kids to Church every week to see how all kinds of LDS people act. They gained strong testimonies of the gospel Went to college got good jobs and made a lot of money. They also had each other to lean on and would go to Iron Man events and things like that together or with similar friends for fun. They learned how to cope with life. Not everybody liked them so what! They could handle that. One of them called me on my answering machine and told me he just killed somebody. No problem he was given a blessing and a lot of time off. One of his brothers is in similar work as a clinical psychologist and helped him out a lot. The Feds sent them overseas. One a lot to "take care of business" and the other one was paid about $1000.00 a day for a little assignment in Afghanistan. They have no problem being men. One of them goes to the Conference Center sometimes on assignment. He's always packing. In his line of work you always have enemies and as an LDS guy that's not a problem!
Can you share the survey that the EQP instructor used to get those answers when he taught the lesson? The reason I would like to do something like that in out EQ meetings. Thank you.
There are people within the church that seem to view masculinity as offensive to the spirit. That if one isn't effiminate, then they aren't true disciples of Christ or worthy of the priesthood. No where in the scriptures does is it taught that being effiminate is the epitome of being a disciple. In fact, people that teach that masculinity is a sin are false teachers of hell. As the bible teaches, effiminate men will not inherit eternal life. Read 1 Cor. 6:9-10 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: ...nor effiminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind....shall inherit the kingdom of God."
I very much doubt that any brave and righteous men in the scriptures were timid or woke.
Joseph Smith was the 100% complete opposite of an effeminate male, who had more ability to tune into the spirit than any man to have lived after him. Woke men and women are evil, period, change my mind.
Hey Greg, you mentioned that niceness is not a virtue but kindness is. Can you describe or point to resources that help delineate the difference between niceness and kindness? Thank you for all you do, love your show!
This is 💯 terrific!
What a great conversation
Glad you liked it!
2nd best acronym ever... F.I.N.E.
Feelings Inside Not Express
I make sure I don't use that word.
I think we need to be doing more in terms of getting together for meals as a church- in my opinion it’s the easiest and one of the most effective ways to even start bonding with other members. We also need to establish more traditions in the church to help bring us together.
We were told Easter needs to be our biggest holiday and I really appreciate the Catholics and ALL they do in preparation for this season. This is the list I have come up with and hopefully it continues to grow.
Palms Sunday: Take palm leaves and decorate the family bible or cross.
Holy Thursday- Washing feet, Candlelight Dinner, sharing of the final supper (remember the rods command to love one another)
Good Friday: Fast. Wear black. Read the story of the passion. Burn incense. Jesus was on the cross from noon to 3.
Visit a grave.
To rejoice in the resurrection you must first grieve the death. adults in our family usually watch the passion.
Easter Sunday:
Church. Bright colors and sunday best.
Easter Egg hunt
Easter Egg decorations
Family Dinner- A great feast traditionally involving some form of pork to celebrate the cleansing of the gentiles. As well as Lamb to symbolize Jesus.
Sunday night: fireworks at church to celebrate the resurrection
We should also make use of those stages in church for once and have a play about the last week of his life.
Or put together Easter parades.
I found this to be an inspirational watch ruclips.net/video/Y3X1S_BgOec/видео.html
@Orin learns everyting I hear you but also cliques are natural. People always gravitate towards similar people - repeated exposure to others at church will help break the ice and create comfortability which takes time.
YES!!
@Orin learns everyting this is the kind of negativity that disables dreamers, planners, volunteers, and optimists.
My ward is full of them.
And my ward is boring.
Boo👎
You don’t have to come to the ward party, Orin.
Just stay in your corner, and read RUclips comments.
Hey, I’m just trying to help you learn *everything*.😅
I love your ideas to celebrate Easter!!
We need more videos like this, at least until we start reading the Book of Mormon more.
When talks in Conference *NEVER* address how to set realistic, healthy boundaries and how to maintain and defend those boundaries, NO WONDER we have a problem in the Church.
Avoid conflict and/or confrontation?! REALLY?!
I would love to have Conference talks that teach us, especially men, what Mr. Rogers introduced: “What do you do with the mad that you feel?”
We also need to be taught HOW TO HANDLE conflict and confrontation.
There are healthy, Christlike ways to face uncomfortable situations.
Avoiding it altogether is weak and afraid.
Passive aggression is a big problem in the Church with both genders.
To tell someone to suppress their anger or wild side, that’s like telling someone to not be gay, to not watch porn, or to not judge.
👎 -totally ineffective-👎
All of these are knee-jerk reactions to the human condition.
HOW do I release my anger in healthy, safe, even productive ways?
HOW can I appropriately manage my gay proclivities?
HOW can I be confident in my worth to not be addicted to porn?
HOW can I be fair, honest, wise, and gentle in my judgements?
I enjoyed this video.👍
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Thankfully there are many resources we can turn to on an individual basis to learn how to do each of these things. The answers shouldn't necessarily have to come from church leaders.
@@TheArtOfNurturingHeartsyou are right, BUT 90 percent of the members take every word as the end all be all. They cannot think for themselves. They look to the elders for everything in their life and that's the problem. There is help outside of it but they refuse to see that.
I believe, from personal experience, that the connection problem will only be overcome as men and women take personal responsibility for creating their own connections and stop expecting someone else to do it for them. Many men and women are deciding to take personal responsiblity in this area, which is so exciting to see! Change is on the horizon---I can feel it!
It’s easy for church leaders (men in their 40s, 50s and on up) to focus on “teddy bear” Jesus because of one simple reason among others:
age makes men weepy.
Many of them are at a life stage where their contribution is based more in consideration of others than productivity/output.
I’ve been on the receiving end of bad advice from mentors in my sphere, putting down my ambition and lecturing me for not being other-focused enough. It’s a frustrating deviation from true principles I do agree with
Interesting point I hadn't thought too much about. I think also this is a nuanced topic. Men who have already been through their own battles look at younger generations and feel a range of emotions as they become spectators who have seen the battle before. But your right, there are plenty of Teddy-Bear Jesus references...the church needs men to tap into the side of Christ that calls people to step up. Christ helped rescue Peter after faltering while walking on water, but he still called out his lack of faith. He often rebuked his disciples, such as when Peter wanted to deny having his feet washed. These moments illustrate the type of energy that men need to take on more often. Not to condemn, but to call forth.
It would be great if you have Brett McKay from the art of manliness. He is a lds too and he has one of the best books on what makes a man "devotionals" is called the book
While there are women who "don't need a man," there are a LOT of us who DO want to find someone and create an eternal partnership and a family, who don't want to go through life alone. What is missing is the MEN! Active, single women in the Church outnumber active, single men in the Church by an appalling ratio. In the young singles' wards I attended, there were about twice as many women as men. After "aging out," there would be about 4x as many women attending mid-singles' activities as men. Now that I'm in the "adult singles,' group, there are 8-10x as many women as men. But this disparity is treated frequently with a shrug and a "Oh, well, what can you do? At least you'll be able to find someone in the next life" attitude; or you hear a General Conference talk expressing sympathy to the unmarried sisters, but nothing to address or resolve the disparity.
Isn’t it up to the individual to repent, change and return? It’s difficult to create desire in another. Personal ministry is the best answer, but again, it’s up to the Individual to accept.
@@kristinrichmond8185 Of course it's up to the individual, but WHY are they leaving in the first place? And why is it so readily shrugged off? I definitely know how hard it can be for the single sisters to stay active, but is something making things so much harder for the men?
@@downtime86stars17 it’s both difficult and easy to answer. Hahah. They leave because they lack their own faith filled testimony of Christ and his teachings. Easier to leave than to dig deep and develop and exercise faith. I’m sure this is too simplistic, but it’s all I’ve got. I don’t see it as being shrugged off. I think local leaders do care when members leave. I care every time a family or individual leaves the church. I do what I can to show love snd friendship, however it’s up to them to make the choice to return. We’re constantly being taught to live with the Holy Ghost and how to achieve that. I don’t see leaders shrugging it off, there is only so much they can do. I also have considered lately that there is still the option for a righteous woman to seek a righteous man not of our faith. I understand that this isn’t ideal, but if a woman wants to be married, this IS an option.
@@kristinrichmond8185That's probably part of the problem, but I've also seen precious little support for the adult (over-31) singles. In one ward, the person in charge of the ward bulletin wouldn't let me list upcoming singles' activities. Our stake singles' committee wanted to have a meeting with representatives from the bishoprics to discuss how we could help singles want to come back. Out of ten wards, only two of the bishoprics sent someone to attend. I've tried several times to ask various RS and EQ presidencies for help to reach out to inactive singles and was ignored. The stake I've been in for the last 10+ years had NO singles' committee, no activities, and we were told to go to other stakes for activities. I had one bishop (in this same stake) who told me he didn't have the time to be bothered with the singles. And what a surprise, in that stake, only about 3% of the singles on the rolls were active. They just redrew our stake boundaries so maybe the new one I'm in will be better, but based on the experiences of the past 25 years, it's hard to be hopeful.
@@kristinrichmond8185 "hey leave because they lack their own faith filled testimony of Christ and his teachings." 100% agree.
I'm a recovering alcoholic and very familiar with the 12 steps. Where are the 12 steps that Kurt referred to? I've just been called into the elders quorum pres. and can't thank you enough for part 1 and part 2 of this podcast. I am also a fan of John Eldredge. I've read Wild At Heart and given away many copies to help other men in need.
Kurt clearly binges on Jordan Peterson. Mentorships would go a LONG way, and stated, even just to hear a few stories of real life, ESPECIALLY the struggles goes a long way.
Once again I loved this!
I shared Part 1 with my ward council. It was generally received well. The RS president didn't really understand your "nice guy is bad" point. She said her friend's ex was a selfish jerk who often left the family to go hunting when he needed to be nicer. That means the correct semantics are being lost on many. Perhaps you could relabel it to be more clear, and re-explain the difference between good nice guy and bad nice guy. Please keep up with this topic. Thank you!
The difference is between “nice” and “kind”. Nice is passive, kind is righteous assertiveness.
@@CwicShow That's exactly what I told her. I'm thinking perhaps good labels for both might be "confident kindness" and "false niceness" or something similar.
Sounds like she was going to poke holes in anything you presented anyway. (not meaning to be negative, but... we can ALL find exceptions.)
I have noticed that many women have a hard time comprehending/understanding things that challenge their perception. This is especially true when it comes to men's issues. The disconnect is mind boggling.
@@happygolucky4266 That's an intriguing thought, one worth exploring.
30:44 My Elders Quorum lesson a couple weeks ago touched on the masculinity spectrum, and because most of the quorum is made up of senior men, they came to a consensus that “men these days” are too soft and basically surmising that men just need to “rub dirt on their wounds” and just ignore their pain because that’s what being a man is. That’s when I erupted to call out that way of thinking because as a younger husband/father I have seen how wrong and hurtful it is for men to deny themselves their feelings and the need to discuss their pain.
I think older men respond the way they do because that was their example of masculinity when they were young like you. I don't believe that men should ever deny their pain, but there are appropriate ways to express the pain and if we express that in settings that are too open we could be perceived by others to be less masculine and more feminine. I personally guard my feelings but I never deny that I have them.
I think it's kind of interesting to talk about the culture changes and the negative impact on men and then discount the guidance those senior men not dealing with the issues are giving. I suggest that it's not really "rub dirt in their wounds" as it is recognizing what things you can deal with vs what you can't and having the wisdom to deal with them appropriately. I am one of these senior men and I've never felt the need to deny any feelings, but don't feel any need to discuss them if it doesn't help the situation.
For example, look at a lot of men who are out doing physical work - they get nicks and dings in their hands and arms, and when you ask them about them, they couldn't tell you what happened because they were busy, and the particular nick, cut or scratch wasn't a big issue so didn't need to interrupt the work. Dwelling on the stuff you can't do anything about isn't incredibly helpful - what is helpful is learning to recognize those. I feel like that seems to be the bigger problem today. Dwelling and rehashing those issues you can't do anything about adds to the frustration and creates a far greater sense of despair.
@@stevehumble8865 I believe it also helps cope with aging and younger men being able to do what they no longer can. Everything is so bubble wrapped the older guys in church have no idea what the younger guys are really capable of
@@RichardChappell1 I see your point, and I agree with your thoughts about the minor "nicks and dings" that don't really need to be addressed because of how fleeting those issues are. In those cases, yes, rubbing the proverbial dirt on it and moving on would be appropriate.
To add a little more context to our discussion, the consensus made by some of the older men was in spite of serious issues that had been brought up, like witnessing a suicide and PTSD nightmares it caused. Other comments made were "Kids have their mom to get love and affection. That's women's work". These ideas were being affirmed as the right way for men to be, which I disagree with because I don't think those paradigms represent the type of men the Savior and the Brethren instruct us to be like.
I can see where you are coming from but I'm not an older guy and love the Idea of rub some dirt in it. I think it's misunderstood sometimes and I wasn't there in your elders quorum so excuse my ignorance.. With my experience growing up and being raised by a cowboy, rub some dirt in it is simply suggesting that "yes, you are having a hard time, don't waist time complaining about it, get up and take steps to do what needs to be done, get the proper help if needed but stop complaining about how hard things are if you are not actively doing something about it, don't be a victim.. In other words, the dirt will stop the bleeding until you can get proper help but the help is most likely not going to come with you sitting here, sad about whats happening. By all means, talk about your feelings if thats what needs to be done but there is a fine-line between complaining and bringing others down and actually talking through a problem.. If you don't want to actually do what needs to be done to fix it, then you probably don't need to talk about it...
If you listened to President Nielson's Sunday talk, NO battle is acceptable. "All contention is evil."
He never said this. You are taking it to an extreme that was not said nor implied.
Then what did he say? What was his point? I've listened to his talk three times and I can't find any other message. I wish I could.
@@rolandsmith4394 “not for peace sake” used example of elder oaks, elder Irving when the disagree, you seem to be focused “conflict” equals anger, he clearly talks how not being disagreeable, president Nielsen does not mean eliminating conflict, he talks about removing ugliness and anger.
@@rolandsmith4394 Essentially, separate the sin from the sinner. Use charity toward individuals
@@CwicShow I went back and listened again, hoping for some seed of agreement. (No transcript yet) Nelson said all contention is evil at 1:36:50 and implied it at 1:33:40 and 1:45:40. I will stand with and for Christ in all situations, even here. A war began in heaven. It rages today. There are grievous wolves in His church. I will not yield. I have been, I am, and I will be a Christian soldier. I will not yield to any man, Russ, you, Greg, or anyone, ever.
This is a problem that goes beyond our church's. This is a cultural problem, and one that very well may lead to the end of America.
Our enemies are "at the gate", and they smell weakness, because they see very few men.
One need only look at our military recruitment ads...
And role models? Where? Who? And, to co-op the "What is a Woman" documentary, what is a man today?
True. Modern warfare = the intentional weakening our society via drugs, porn, addiction, broken families, loss of masculine/feminine roles, lack of identity, unresolved trauma, weakened military
I love this you guys! First off, there is NO toxic masculinity, there is just simply being a rotten individual.. Men do it AND Women do it.. Second, Don't back track on what masculine activities are. Some things are masculine and some things are not and if someone is saying "well, I just don't like doing those things" to all masculine activities, then the answer might be that they are not masculine.. There is a fine line, It's my opinion that we can't tell men that stamp collecting or video games are masculine actives. They may be enjoyable hobbies but thats all.. I might even suggest that attending (to watch) sports events is not masculine; the sport itself might be masculine but watching other men do it probably doesn't constitute as such; the caveat here is getting together with your group of friends and bonding over the game probably is.. To me, masculine is being rough and tumble with your kids, doing dangerous or risky things (or things that are not always safe and comfortable), learning physical skills, standing up for what is right even in fear. In the church, we do mention that it's our job to "protect" our families.... how on earth can any man think they are equipped to do so if they don't know how to deal with discomfort or even knowing how to fight...or... are we ALWAYS talking about protect in a spiritual sense, like protect your kids from xyz spiritual danger? But really, loved hearing this, I feel like we talk in circles about NOTHING in elders quorum and this was refreshing. Thanks!
What use to be great is being in a GC Priesthood meeting and seeing nothing but great men trying to be the best priesthood holders they could. They took away church sports, Arronic Priesthood memorial campout, told the Brethren that they had to take it all from their wife while enduring to the end. And making the church favor the woman's organizations in and out of the church. It's time for the pendulum to swing back the other way so their is balance.
How should men be? Long suffering. Gentle. Meek. Kind. Humble. Filled with charity. Virtuous . And if they do so their confidence will wax strong before God. In the end those good men will become the mentor that younger men will look up to for the remainder of their lives whether they hunt, are into sports or maybe who like to write novels, poetry, or take long walks in the woods to think about and appreciate the creations God has provided. They will become the kind of man that women will want in their life i.e. trusting good men who lead out with kindness. Obtaining the virtues of Jesus and yes, gosh, even Mr Rogers, will bring men to a place where they shall feel no shame before God. These are the very virtues that give the priesthood the power to act in the name of God. Latter day scriptures teach men how to be leaders and how to become more like God. Women love kind, gentle men filled with charity. Together they lead their families to a better and higher place. Thank goodness for scriptures that teach men how to be men through gentleness, meekness, kindness and by becoming long suffering. I know good men like this within and without of the Church. Latter day scripture Sec 121 gives men the map to follow. Men without hypocrisy and without guile who would never exercise control or unrighteousness dominion over any one living soul. Those are the good kind hearted men that Heavenly Father needs today to help bring Heavenly Fathers children back to Him. Thank you !
It's about not saying or more importantly not doing anything that would be considered detrimental to the Church, it's doctrine or it's leaders. Maintain a low profile. Follow the brethern. Be the good, dependable company man.
A LOT of these issues is addressed in a podcast called "The Happy Wfie School"....this woman does a serious podcast on the relationship issues we have in todays culture....please check it out
Talking about femininity might solve half the issue! I read a fascinating book talking about the psychology of boys and men. It said that while girls will try to be good for the sake of being good, men are motivated more by being good FOR someone special in their lives, often their mother, a female role model, teacher, etc, but it could be a male role model too. Someone who allows them space to be themselves, but leads by example. The book is called How to Raise a Boy by Michael C Reichert
Very true.
When youv say "wilderness" do you mean the metaphorical wilderness mentioned in scripture? Kind of like the parable of the lost sheep in which the shepherd leaves the 99 and "goes into the wilderness". In that case going into the wilderness means to submit one's self to trials and testing
Men can go camping, Elders quorum can have once a month meetings. I asked the church to do that before covid.
then during covid I put together man's group they could talk and they say they loved it through covid.
Honestly there are positive and negative aspects to all personalities which includes masculinity and femininity. We should ALL work on the negative aspects of our personalities. We should learn to be compassionate and empathetic but not be a doormat and know that compromising the truth is NOT compassion. We should learn to be assertive but not be a jerk. We need to learn that our needs are just as important as everyone else in the family while not being too selfish.
Please consider sharing more real-life, solid examples of masculine activities for individuals and for groups of men, examples not only of sports, but of all kinds of things. Consider sharing more concrete ideas. Perhaps we talk too much about the problem of current masculinity, where actually we may need inspired examples of what to actually do. What you are offering in these broadcasts on the topic is excellent, for absolute sure, but we need to go to the next step. If a man hasn't seen healthy masculinity growing up what does it really look like?
Agreed! Men and women both need to see examples of how to connect with others.
If you want more of this masculinity content, read (or listen to) Way of the Wild Heart or Wild at Heart. Both of those books are by John Eldredge and they are amazing.
You would really enjoy The Boy Crisis. It changed my perspective.
Toxic masculinity, the term, is a Marxist/Feminist term. Stop using it. Give it a different name and talk about behaviors more. It's repulsive because we have been beat over the head in every possible format, politics, TV, Academia, advertising, etc.
If you ignore the tools of the adversary, you will lose. I’m not going to put my head in the sand. It’s not used here without referencing it’s source. You can put your head in the sand if you choose. Imagine going to a battle without knowing what the enemies weapons are. Or pretending they don’t exist. I’m not using the term to regurgitate it, I’m using it for awareness and contrast. Learn the difference.
@@CwicShow I appreciate that and I understand that. I enjoy your content as a subscriber. That said, it didn't come across as though you were delineating the difference. My head is definitely not in the sand. Just a little feedback. Thanks.
@@CwicShow By the way, my favorite episode so far has been the new member Dave. I have subscribed and devoured the content over there. His testimony is contagious.
@@bishdizzle67 Agreed.
This conversation totally reminded me of Jordan Peterson view of masculinity where you talk about taking the monster instead of never being capable of it. Have you watched hiss videos about taking the monster?
Need is dependent on what the objective is. A woman with a good career doesn't need a man to provide for her, but that doesn't mean she doesn't need a man in other ways. She needs a man to be fully fulfilled as a woman, she needs a man to reach her divine potential, her kids need a father for them to grow up as emotionally fit as possible. There should be no shame a woman admitting she needs a man, since a man also needs a woman. We need each other.
Ultimately fathers should have final say in big decisions in the family and that is a big part of what it means to preside. This happens after the husband and wife have discussed these big decisions together and considered each others view points. These talks on masculinity and femininity are interesting to me. I as a woman have the most common personality for a man but both my husband and I have masculine and feminine characteristics but we both have more masculine characteristics. Now I do try to work to be more empathetic and less angry because those are my weak points. Fathers should also work on these weak points to if they have them. I love that I am different though. I know being a parent is the most important thing any of us will do. I work part time while raising my boys and this would also be ideal for fathers too but certainly not to work more than 40 hours a week if at all possible.
Is Brett McKay from The Art Of Manliness website/podcast still an active member of the church? I would love to have him on to talk about this. He has done many interviews similar to this topic over the years. I like you Kurt, but you use a lot of therapy phrases. This topic would be a great recurring theme to return to, perhaps with other guests (Brett!), particularly with research or clinical experience for context of LDS men vs. every other kind of North American man.
In fact, it's effiminate to teach that there's no hell or damnation. Christ taught during his mortal ministry that there is a hell and that there is damnation. In fact, he directly told a certain group of people that they will be going to hell when they die and that they are children of the devil. That's masculine teaching by the master teacher himself.
Captain Moroni is great, but my favorite is Teancum!!
Lots of great examples in American and World History as well. There is no shortage of positive role models. As individuals, we just need to seek them out.