Also not mentioned here is that once the display hits 200, it stays pinned _exactly_ on that value despite the actual temperature varying by a (reasonable) 10-15c or so. A more honest tool would show the _actual_ measured temperature once it hit setpoint so you could keep an eye on things, but this means that if you cool the plate rapidly with a big thermal mass, you'll have no idea what temperature it sags to or how long it takes to recover.
I think the issue is they are (for reasons I don't get) presenting the temperature reading lowpass filtered. I've preheated mine to 130*C and placed a wet cloth the top, the water immediately began to boil, yet the reading began to drop only after about 15 seconds. The real deal preheaters use an external thermocouple to monitor the actual PCB temperature. Of course this tool could be improved a lot, but I guess knowing its limitations you can get some good usage out of it.
I see what you mean. I can try but I have a feeling I could dip the tool's thermocouple into iced water and the display would keep saying "200C" :) I mean, for £20, this is "ok-ish", one just needs to understand this limitation. I was quite puzzled when I re-balled the Onkyo IC, the tool said 120C and I saw the balls melting! I was not ready for that, I didn't have the hot air ready etc!
Apparently that happens on a cold start. I set the temperature to 120 C then rise the temperature to 210 C. I am not planning on replacing it any time soon.
Hi Tony, I think it has a slightly different reason, my idea is based on making my own hotplate and measuring the temperature rises. The actual temperature and the temperature on the display are irrelevant until the acoustic signal, and after the acoustic signal, the temperature of the display and the plate correspond - that is important. In my opinion, the manufacturer here takes into account the acuthermal properties of the plate material used, and this delay of the display ending with the acoustic signal is to ensure uniform distribution and stabilization of the temperature across the entire surface. It is true that it could be done differently, but from the user's point of view it is simple, I don't do anything about it until it beeps. My control electronics (modified professional digital thermostat) does not beep after the temperature equalization, but I have set an ascending ramp - so the primary heating takes longer, but with the actual temperature displayed - this is how I ensured uniform distribution across the entire surface of the heating plate of approximately 12x8cm. Nice day 🙂 Tom
Hi - I think you are overestimating the manufacturer here! You'll see solder melting when the display says 100C! The point with reflowing is to keep the ICs at re-flow temperature for the shortest possible time. Keeping the IC at 200C for more than needed can only mean more chances to damage the IC. This is a very small plate, once the thermocouple has reached 200C, it would probably take 5-10 seconds for the whole plate to be as uniformly hot as possible. For a larger plate - and with a larger PCB in mind - it might make sense but at that point you really want to keep an eye on the actual PCB temperature and not the plate temperature. Or at least both. The bottom line is that that number is fake. As long as the user is aware of that, they can make their own decision on how to use the tool :) Thanks for your comment!
@@Tony359_2 For working on sensitive components, I have a different trick for checking the temperature. On the articulated arm of the LED-backlit magnifying glass that I use as auxiliary lighting for the workplace, I made a separate joint with a USB-C socket into which I can insert a thermal camera and display the actual temperature on the monitor of my work PC. I place the printed circuit boards that I want to work on using a heating plate on preheating only after the temperature has completely stabilized, so I don't see a problem with the inadequate temperature during heating - for me, the data after the temperature has stabilized is important. Since my blanket is relatively large for a small PCB, I have made reduction pads from 6mm thick aluminum strip and so I always wait a while for the reduction pad to heat up before starting work - it works perfectly.
@@Tony359_2 apparently on the new model you can put some kind of "model" to work with specific phones to do delamination, remove glue and other things
Yes, it's a timer to cook the eggs to perfection :)
Месяц назад+2
thank you for sharing this, I have the exact same pre heater but I never trust these tools HAHAH so I always make my own ramps, I first set it to 110 degrees and I hold the temp por 1 minute, then I set it to 200 degrees and as soon as I see the solder melting I wait a couple of seconds and theeen I take the chip off the platform
It might be worth it to rip existing controller out of it and to make your own. It has nice case and heater. Or it might be even possible to reprogram what's already in there.
Tests without any thermal load are not really meaningful. I think adding a multilayer PCB on top of the hot plate and measuring the temperature on top of it would make the displayed temperatures more realistic. From my observations, the LC-60 solder starts to flow on the PCB when the display reaches 190°C, so it's not too bad. I also have an iX5 Ultra with a larger plate.
It’s pretty clear that that reading doesn’t mean anything, the machine is maintaining 200C when the display still says 130. If you disagree, check the onkyo video where the solder started melting way before the machine read 180!
@@Tony359_2 I will read the temperature from the top of the PCB, not from the aluminum heat bed. BTW thermocouple is also a no-go, due to massive EM radiation - I was able to light a LED on a heat plate when I grounded one of its pins.
Probably a little bit, yes, but the PCB won't be so well thermally connected to the plate and you'll end up with a cold-ish PCB sitting on a 150C plate. In any case the temperature reading is intentionally misleading...
@@Tony359_2 Even if the thermal load from the PCB is minimal, the thermal conductivity is also not perfect, and we are usually more interested in the PCB temperature and not the hotplate temperature. From my observations, the displayed temperature reflects PCB temperature quite well.
While this miniware is cool and all, clearly the 5x5 square is too tiny so it doesn't look like a really usable tool. Would be great to see you hack the mechanic one hardware-wise to make it heat up slower (limiting the current it draws or something)
It seems like it's common practice in China. Just couple hours ago, my sister dropped me an egg incubator. Chicks just wouldn't hatch, no matter what she did. She dropped me that device so I would check if it's maybe not callibrated right or something. Not callibrated was the understatement of the year. Basically what that device was doing was heating the air inside of it using self (not)regulating heating pad, and electronics was just for show. It was displaying completely bogus values. There wasn't even any thermal sensor inside. They were detecting if the door was open and if it was, they slowly decreased temperature value shown on the display. I am going to do exactly what I mentioned in my last comment. I am going to rip existing electronics out of it and build my own incubator using shell of that Chinese piece of shit as a base. At least that part is decent.
Always test. It's frustrating that companies will go through the trouble rather than just frame it as a positive- framing something as a positive is still kind of sleazy but at least they'd be truthful.
yes, indeed, when there is a choice between a not very precise air conditioner in a Dacia Logan and not bad climate control in a Mercedes Pullman. I will choose Pullman. I remind you that in the documents on reball there is a drying procedure. and when you will dry the chips for 24 hours. if we talk about the subtleties and those processes, then about all of them. but $23 and $88 are still 2 big differences.😉
I tried drying boards many times, if you abuse of them with temp, they will popcorn anyways. The drying/reflowing process in an industrial setup are difficult to replicate at home, particularly in the UK where it tends NOT to be dry :) Price difference is a thing indeed.
@@Tony359_2 drying is not as complicated a process as it seems. especially if you approach it creatively. Food Dehydrator and Drying Cabinet. yes, they dry boards with this, sometimes even laptop cases after washing. everything you need is there. and a timer and a thermometer. secrets of masters from poor countries 😅
I have the small one, not the new one, and mine does reflect the real temperature. It even drops when I put a thermal load on it. But yours is about one degree per second. The inconsistency is kind of worrying.
The lying mechanic would need new firmware -> unfortunately I don't have the preheater from the mechanic so I don't know what IC it is but it would be interesting.. or replace the electronics with your own
Tony, I just tested my unit, and the measured temperature follows the indicated temp quite accurately, up to 160C. Then there is a delta on 40C that I blame on my probe ( we should actually use contact probes). The cooling profile is also quite accurately followed Here is a small video I took: ruclips.net/video/nDzch18L6IE/видео.html I might repeat the test with a contact thermometer, but I like the unit I think in your case the temperature sensor is quite badly decoupled thermally to the plate.
Thanks I’ll take a look at the video. It cannot be a thermocouple issue I’m afraid. If that was the case the temperature read by my thermocouple would keep increasing way past 200C until the display reads 200. Instead, it stops at 200 proving that the tool KNOWS that the temp has reached the set point, but it won’t display it. I’ve watched the video. Yes it seems much more accurate. Maybe I have a copycat. That said when I tried with the ‘ball-shaped’ thermocouple the temperature read was a bit off compared to the rigid one. But yes that’s nowhere near as bad as the one I have.
Tony, I use it mostly for what it is designed for - preheating. Anyway, the temperature transfer to a chip is dampened, the chip may reach the set temperature long after the display, since it is mostly by contact
for accuracy for damaging a chip, I still unsure. every chips datasheets are just a proximate. some chips are able to handle longer over temperature. some are well below what the specs. better use lower temperature solders for safer work, but removing the chip with lead-free is tolling a disaster. I hate manufacturing nowadays, use poor PCB glued layers and traces with overkill lead-free solder balls.
@Tony359_2 from my experience it works very well for the price, eevBlog was talking about it long ago but a lot of products lie about there temperature curve, if you see the temperature growing slowly without pick the product lie to you. (Because it's not technically possible)
Also not mentioned here is that once the display hits 200, it stays pinned _exactly_ on that value despite the actual temperature varying by a (reasonable) 10-15c or so. A more honest tool would show the _actual_ measured temperature once it hit setpoint so you could keep an eye on things, but this means that if you cool the plate rapidly with a big thermal mass, you'll have no idea what temperature it sags to or how long it takes to recover.
Indeed. That number displayed has nothing to do with temperature :)
It's great how you get to the bottom of things here, thank you!
You're welcome! I'm getting a bit tired of these "deceiving" devices though! :)
No he did not get to the bottom of it.
Thanks!
I think the issue is they are (for reasons I don't get) presenting the temperature reading lowpass filtered. I've preheated mine to 130*C and placed a wet cloth the top, the water immediately began to boil, yet the reading began to drop only after about 15 seconds. The real deal preheaters use an external thermocouple to monitor the actual PCB temperature. Of course this tool could be improved a lot, but I guess knowing its limitations you can get some good usage out of it.
I see what you mean. I can try but I have a feeling I could dip the tool's thermocouple into iced water and the display would keep saying "200C" :)
I mean, for £20, this is "ok-ish", one just needs to understand this limitation. I was quite puzzled when I re-balled the Onkyo IC, the tool said 120C and I saw the balls melting! I was not ready for that, I didn't have the hot air ready etc!
Apparently that happens on a cold start. I set the temperature to 120 C then rise the temperature to 210 C. I am not planning on replacing it any time soon.
Hi Tony, I think it has a slightly different reason, my idea is based on making my own hotplate and measuring the temperature rises. The actual temperature and the temperature on the display are irrelevant until the acoustic signal, and after the acoustic signal, the temperature of the display and the plate correspond - that is important. In my opinion, the manufacturer here takes into account the acuthermal properties of the plate material used, and this delay of the display ending with the acoustic signal is to ensure uniform distribution and stabilization of the temperature across the entire surface. It is true that it could be done differently, but from the user's point of view it is simple, I don't do anything about it until it beeps. My control electronics (modified professional digital thermostat) does not beep after the temperature equalization, but I have set an ascending ramp - so the primary heating takes longer, but with the actual temperature displayed - this is how I ensured uniform distribution across the entire surface of the heating plate of approximately 12x8cm.
Nice day 🙂 Tom
Hi - I think you are overestimating the manufacturer here!
You'll see solder melting when the display says 100C! The point with reflowing is to keep the ICs at re-flow temperature for the shortest possible time. Keeping the IC at 200C for more than needed can only mean more chances to damage the IC.
This is a very small plate, once the thermocouple has reached 200C, it would probably take 5-10 seconds for the whole plate to be as uniformly hot as possible.
For a larger plate - and with a larger PCB in mind - it might make sense but at that point you really want to keep an eye on the actual PCB temperature and not the plate temperature. Or at least both. The bottom line is that that number is fake. As long as the user is aware of that, they can make their own decision on how to use the tool :)
Thanks for your comment!
@@Tony359_2 For working on sensitive components, I have a different trick for checking the temperature. On the articulated arm of the LED-backlit magnifying glass that I use as auxiliary lighting for the workplace, I made a separate joint with a USB-C socket into which I can insert a thermal camera and display the actual temperature on the monitor of my work PC.
I place the printed circuit boards that I want to work on using a heating plate on preheating only after the temperature has completely stabilized, so I don't see a problem with the inadequate temperature during heating - for me, the data after the temperature has stabilized is important. Since my blanket is relatively large for a small PCB, I have made reduction pads from 6mm thick aluminum strip and so I always wait a while for the reduction pad to heat up before starting work - it works perfectly.
your setup seems great! :)
Hot analysis here. You just demonstrated how much we need to challenge absolutely everything. Good job Tony !!!
Yes - tiring sometimes! :D Thank you!
I have the new iX5 Ultra model, the one with a larger plate, and it's behaving normally
I didn't know there was a bigger one!
@@Tony359_2 apparently on the new model you can put some kind of "model" to work with specific phones to do delamination, remove glue and other things
awesome this is useful , i like these kinds of tests !!!!! , thanks man !!
You're very welcome, thanks for watching!
It looks like it is timer not temperature settings
Yes, it's a timer to cook the eggs to perfection :)
thank you for sharing this, I have the exact same pre heater but I never trust these tools HAHAH so I always make my own ramps, I first set it to 110 degrees and I hold the temp por 1 minute, then I set it to 200 degrees and as soon as I see the solder melting I wait a couple of seconds and theeen I take the chip off the platform
That's wise :)
It might be worth it to rip existing controller out of it and to make your own. It has nice case and heater. Or it might be even possible to reprogram what's already in there.
Tests without any thermal load are not really meaningful. I think adding a multilayer PCB on top of the hot plate and measuring the temperature on top of it would make the displayed temperatures more realistic. From my observations, the LC-60 solder starts to flow on the PCB when the display reaches 190°C, so it's not too bad. I also have an iX5 Ultra with a larger plate.
It’s pretty clear that that reading doesn’t mean anything, the machine is maintaining 200C when the display still says 130. If you disagree, check the onkyo video where the solder started melting way before the machine read 180!
@@Tony359_2 I'm just saying it's not the issue with my slightly newer iX5 Ultra. I'll try to record the heating-up phase using a thermal camera.
Remember a thermal camera will/might not be accurate when reading on aluminium
@@Tony359_2 I will read the temperature from the top of the PCB, not from the aluminum heat bed. BTW thermocouple is also a no-go, due to massive EM radiation - I was able to light a LED on a heat plate when I grounded one of its pins.
On the video I clearly showed that the thermocouple was very accurate when testing the melting point of solder.
Nice preheater, just a little bit too small ;)
Yes... :)
The temperature will rise more slowly if there is a thermal load (the circuit board) on the plate?!
Probably a little bit, yes, but the PCB won't be so well thermally connected to the plate and you'll end up with a cold-ish PCB sitting on a 150C plate. In any case the temperature reading is intentionally misleading...
@@Tony359_2 👍
@@Tony359_2 Even if the thermal load from the PCB is minimal, the thermal conductivity is also not perfect, and we are usually more interested in the PCB temperature and not the hotplate temperature. From my observations, the displayed temperature reflects PCB temperature quite well.
While this miniware is cool and all, clearly the 5x5 square is too tiny so it doesn't look like a really usable tool. Would be great to see you hack the mechanic one hardware-wise to make it heat up slower (limiting the current it draws or something)
I cannot disagree that 5x5 is not great.
maybe its just reading the temperature from somwhere on the perimeter of the hot plate not on the middle where the heaters are. just a thought
That’s not possible unfortunately. If that was the case the temperature at my thermocouple would go up to, say, 300C.
I wonder if you'd have any luck jerri-rigging the miniware with the heating element and top from the mechanic.
I guess one could just screw in a larger plate...
It seems like it's common practice in China. Just couple hours ago, my sister dropped me an egg incubator. Chicks just wouldn't hatch, no matter what she did. She dropped me that device so I would check if it's maybe not callibrated right or something. Not callibrated was the understatement of the year. Basically what that device was doing was heating the air inside of it using self (not)regulating heating pad, and electronics was just for show. It was displaying completely bogus values. There wasn't even any thermal sensor inside. They were detecting if the door was open and if it was, they slowly decreased temperature value shown on the display.
I am going to do exactly what I mentioned in my last comment. I am going to rip existing electronics out of it and build my own incubator using shell of that Chinese piece of shit as a base. At least that part is decent.
Ahaha I like that they were pretending that the temp was decreasing when the door was open! 😂
Always test. It's frustrating that companies will go through the trouble rather than just frame it as a positive- framing something as a positive is still kind of sleazy but at least they'd be truthful.
To be fair, this is a £16 item - they probably just aim to see some heat being generated and ship it :)
yes, indeed, when there is a choice between a not very precise air conditioner in a Dacia Logan and not bad climate control in a Mercedes Pullman. I will choose Pullman. I remind you that in the documents on reball there is a drying procedure. and when you will dry the chips for 24 hours. if we talk about the subtleties and those processes, then about all of them. but $23 and $88 are still 2 big differences.😉
I tried drying boards many times, if you abuse of them with temp, they will popcorn anyways. The drying/reflowing process in an industrial setup are difficult to replicate at home, particularly in the UK where it tends NOT to be dry :)
Price difference is a thing indeed.
@@Tony359_2 drying is not as complicated a process as it seems. especially if you approach it creatively. Food Dehydrator and Drying Cabinet. yes, they dry boards with this, sometimes even laptop cases after washing. everything you need is there. and a timer and a thermometer. secrets of masters from poor countries 😅
I have the small one, not the new one, and mine does reflect the real temperature. It even drops when I put a thermal load on it. But yours is about one degree per second. The inconsistency is kind of worrying.
Yes, it's more likely a timer :)
"show the style of the master" not necessarily the skill of the master
ahah indeed!
The lying mechanic would need new firmware -> unfortunately I don't have the preheater from the mechanic so I don't know what IC it is but it would be interesting.. or replace the electronics with your own
It might be doable, I think the controller has not been lasered off to cover the mode.
Tony, I just tested my unit, and the measured temperature follows the indicated temp quite accurately, up to 160C. Then there is a delta on 40C that I blame on my probe ( we should actually use contact probes). The cooling profile is also quite accurately followed
Here is a small video I took:
ruclips.net/video/nDzch18L6IE/видео.html
I might repeat the test with a contact thermometer, but I like the unit
I think in your case the temperature sensor is quite badly decoupled thermally to the plate.
Thanks I’ll take a look at the video. It cannot be a thermocouple issue I’m afraid. If that was the case the temperature read by my thermocouple would keep increasing way past 200C until the display reads 200. Instead, it stops at 200 proving that the tool KNOWS that the temp has reached the set point, but it won’t display it.
I’ve watched the video. Yes it seems much more accurate. Maybe I have a copycat. That said when I tried with the ‘ball-shaped’ thermocouple the temperature read was a bit off compared to the rigid one. But yes that’s nowhere near as bad as the one I have.
Tony, I use it mostly for what it is designed for - preheating. Anyway, the temperature transfer to a chip is dampened, the chip may reach the set temperature long after the display, since it is mostly by contact
It is true. But I don’t want a tool which tells me lies 🙂
Yours seems ok though.
Both of these devices are junk, $100! is this a scam? 40 is the price I paid to design a 150x150 plate with a worthy PID...
Yes, it’s not cheap…
What does it mean for my soldiering iron. It takes 10 secs to fet to 350 deg C? Its a ksger device. Is it faulty going up so quick
Soldering iron is totally fine!
it is not critical heating device. just 15 bucks why would you care too much?
Because people use it to re-ball £500 GPU cores on it?
it is not intended to do critical task and expensive devices. if you have to deal with expensive and accurate reballing, why bother with cheap tools?
Well not everybody has budget for everything. The purpose of the video is to warn people that this tool might be inaccurate.
for accuracy for damaging a chip, I still unsure. every chips datasheets are just a proximate. some chips are able to handle longer over temperature. some are well below what the specs. better use lower temperature solders for safer work, but removing the chip with lead-free is tolling a disaster. I hate manufacturing nowadays, use poor PCB glued layers and traces with overkill lead-free solder balls.
I'm curious to see what you think about the 10$ shipped USBc Hot plate type 😉
I'm sure they found a way to make it dangerous too! :D
@Tony359_2 from my experience it works very well for the price, eevBlog was talking about it long ago but a lot of products lie about there temperature curve, if you see the temperature growing slowly without pick the product lie to you. (Because it's not technically possible)