How Cover & Obscuring WORK in Warhammer 40k | Your Questions Answered! | Ridiculous Rules
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- #Warhammer40k #tutorial
Talking about how the Obscuring and Cover rules work in Warhammer 40k, and answering some frequently asked questions about the mechanics!
Line of Fire diagram: imgur.com/a/jqG63up
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Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
1:15 Coarse Silly Bus
1:51 Obscuring
9:01 Light & Heavy Cover
10:30 Measuring Line of Fire
12:54 Taking Saves in Cover
14:28 Dense Cover
20:01 Outro 
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They really should stop allowing to shoot unit just because you can see a part of the model that is way out of the base ( like wing, weapon of theses tentacles for the toxicrenes ), i mean seriously if pretty obvious that a hive tyran will retract it's wing while hidding behind a ruins ^^
Yeah, it should only be if part of the model they can see is within the base, or hull in the case of vehicles
Didn't he say that's only line of sight, and line of fire runs base-to-base?
@@stevenschnepp576 The line of fire is about having or not the bonus of the cover, the line of sight is about beeing able to shot a unit or not.
As an example, you have the fling hive tyrant, most of it's body is hide behind the cover but because of it's wings the ennemy is able to see it therefor he will be able to shoot it eben if it have less than 18W and it's beeing behind an obscuring cover.
As an other example, you have a space marine behind a small cover, the line of sight will let you shoot him BUT because the line of fire says it's behind the wall he will have the cover bonus.
TLOS is a blight on the game and needs to be removed if 40k is ever going to stop being the butt of other gaming community's jokes.
yeah, also in a battle situation, trying to shoot a tentacle or wing thats barely popping out from cover would be kind of difficult.
Oh my god, THANK YOU. I have always struggled to get a clear and concise answer on how line of sight and fire (I like the term!) is drawn and how saves are allocated to units in cover, especially if it were given at all for half covered units. As a newbie, this has helped me a lot! GW spend a lot of time writing rules, but no time giving examples of how those rules work, especially the complicated ones.
Glad it helped! :)
This content is incredible please keep it coming! My brother and I want to compete in tournaments so these in-depth explanations clarify so many mechanics we are unsure about.
Glad it helps!
it’s not just overlapping the base for being within terrain, it’s overlapping the footprint. What determines the footprint is unclear but if we look at what gw put as the footprint of their newer buildings from this edition, it’s the inside perimeter of the structure. That would indicate that you can’t just touch the exterior of the building and suddenly be able to see
My local community, we have a couple house rules regarding cover:
1a) A unit can receive Light Cover if the attackers LoF fails to hit half or more of the bases of each model in the defending unit.
1b) A unit can also receive Light Cover if the attacker's LoF passes over another unit. For the purposes of this rule, the first friendly unit in the Line of Fire is ignored.
2a) If a unit is receiving Light cover from two separate sources, the second light cover instead confers -1 to hit rolls, like Dense Cover (Note that it does not give you dense cover, only acts like it).
2b) If a unit is receiving Light cover from three or more separate sources, that unit is ineligible to be targeted for that ranged attack.
3) In regards to the 2nd rule, if the attacker has an ability whereby they can ignore light cover, one source of cover is ignored, instead of all of it.
We did this so that 1) cover was easier to acquire, 2) clever positioning or synergies felt rewarding, and 3) abilities that ignoring light cover can be outplayed.
While I recognize such rules may see unbalanced in the general community, our group has had greatly enjoyed them.
Can’t find in rules regarding 1b, how does it originally should work?
@@meatyproprietor honestly not sure, I think you can fire through allies using Rules as Written
@@davidw.1429 You can fire through allies no problem. My beef is when there is a screen of enemy chaff, and you are shooting the stuff behind it with zero penalty. Then what is the point of screening cannon fodder? I like your house rules.
Thank you for visual examples of each topic. Unbelievably helpful for someone like me that needs to see to learn.
The height requirements on terrain keywords (Obscuring and also the 3" requirement for Dense Cover) is GW hamhandedly attempting to code the terrain they sell into the rules without doing it as explicitly as they did in 8th edition.
I love this type of content. Thank you!
I'm trying to get back into 40k after over a decade (haven't played since 5th) and this video really helped clarify the rules for me. The way it's written in the rulebook is very exact and I was having trouble visualizing what it was trying to say. Thanks! Looking forward to more!
Trying to get back into it too since quitting in 4th Ed and man are the rules janky and open to wide misinterpretation...
I've been playing Blood & Plunder, Yugioh and Magic the Gathering inbetween which have far better written rules that generally stick to formats that are clearly definined. WH in comparison feels like a kid is making up rules as the game goes along!
Glad it helped!
This is the only tortoise I trust
TrustworthyTortoise was the 2nd choice for the channel name
Tortoises are notoriously untrustworthy
Why are top battlereport channels playing obscuring as the walls become transparent if you are in contact with them. I found it so confusing until this video and see that they are playing the rule wrong. Great content
Very helpful video my dude. People in my playgroup hardly ever use terrain rules because of their complexity, so this is great.
Glad it was helpful!
I know this is an old video...
But since this video is pretty important for Knights to know. There has been a huge conversation going on with the Imperial Knights' Martial Tradition: Mysterious Guardian. The argument is if the Tradition allows the model to come in from reserves in Turn 1! Yeah! Crazy powerful. A Castellan with it avoiding an enemy going first Alpha Strike them coming in after the enemy goes first and the Castellan alpha strikes.
That all said, the Mysterious Guardian wording states that it allows the unit to enter 1 turn earlier regardless of mission rules. The argument stems from the last few words. "Regardless of Mission rules". It doesn't state regardless of Core rules, which is were the reserves rules come from. Most missions don't have any rules for reserves or restrictions on reserves.
People have been treating the wording on Mysterious Guardian as the GSC's "From All Angles" but that ability literally states the army can have reserves come in on Turn 1.
Another army that has a nearly identical ability the Mysterious Guardian is the CSM NightLords. And recently a British league has rules the Nightlord's ability capable of meaning 'can come in on Turn 1'. Thus IK players are going to be using this as their argument.
Your thoughts?
Keep them coming more videos like this please it’s the reason the subscribed. Good work.
Will do!
Another fun quirk (assuming I'm playing correctly): Cover still takes effect, even when the attacker is firing a weapon that doesn't require line of sight. That's right, your cover works against artillery!
Yep! In fact cover (and especially Dense cover, since it still works if it's in between the attacker and the target regardless of LOS) is one of the best defenses against arty.
Except Hive Guard xD
Great video, but touching = within is the house rule, not the other way around. the rules and GW's shown intent elsewhere are very specific that within = within, touching is not enough.
p261: "Infantry, Beast, and Swarm models receive the benefits of cover from Area Terrain while they are within it"
• Footprint = boundary of terrain feature at ground level
P199: "If a rule says it affects models that are 'within', then it applies so long as any part of the model's base (or hull) is within the specified distance"
Regarding intent, check the official terrain datasheets - they specifically set the boundary of the terrain to the inside edge of the wall, such that even if touching the border of the terrain = within, you still wouldn't actually get cover or be able to see through obscuring just by contacting the outside wall of a ruin.
This also fixes the weirdness you mention at 13:00
Thanks for watching!
The "Within" rules state that models are "within" a measurement as long as they are inside up-to and including the boundaries of that measurement, so touching the edge of an area considers a model to be "within" that area. For example if I'm at the edge of a 6" wide area I'm already within that area/aura, I don't have to measure 5.9" or something.
Otherwise you run into situations where there's no legal way for many vehicles to see thru obscuring area ruins etc. (since they couldn't touch outer walls to ignore obscuring).
The datasheets just outline how GW wants you to play *specific* terrain features, and demarcate special rules for where those features begin and end; they're not really a good example of how all other terrain is played RAW.
@@TacticalTortoise Thanks for the response!
however, I think the rule you reference is specifically referring to distance measurements, as it reads "If a rule says it applies ‘within' a certain distance". The terrain rules don't ask about a certain distance, they ask if a model is within the terrain.
Also remember this rule is a core game rule, and is not terrain specific - so if we apply it one way for terrain, we must also apply it that way for all other parts of the game. If this sentence is taken as one thing touching another means it is within it, then placing models base to base would be impossible. because one base is touching the other with no distance between them, it means that the bases are treated as being within one another and is therefore an illegal placement as bases cannot overlap. Similarly, under this interpretation you could never place reserves that were too large to be placed wholly within 6" of a board edge. The rules specify that you have to place this sort of model touching your board edge instead, which would mean the model is treated as being within the space off the edge of the board, an illegal placement. However, if we interpret the first sentence of the "within/wholly within" section to be regarding distances, like it says in the rule, then none of these problems exist. So I feel like the interpretation that "overlapping = within, touching =/= within" more than checks out from an in depth technical standpoint.
"Otherwise you run into situations where there's no legal way for many vehicles to see thru obscuring area ruins etc. (since they couldn't touch outer walls to ignore obscuring)."
Agreed.
"The datasheets just outline how GW wants you to play specific terrain features, and demarcate special rules for where those features begin and end; they're not really a good example of how all other terrain is played RAW."
All the terrain shares that detail though, it doesn't vary based on what type of feature they wanted to depict. we actually get examples of a wide variety of ruins which all have this specificity in common. And while I agree that these on their own do not necessarily constitute an clear picture of how it needs to be played raw, it is clearly an example of their intent regarding ruins.
Finally, and most compelling to me honestly, there's the simple question of gut check. does it really seem right to have a rules interpretation where you can ask "do I have to be within that terrain to be within it?" and the answer could be "no."? Does it pass your gut check that the only reason one might consider it RAW is because if you flip to the specific bit where they talk about clarifying within/wholly within, there's one sentence that could possibly be interpreted for this situation (and this one situation selectively) to mean that touching also means within?
At the end of the day its a minor thing, as it should just be agreed upon with one's opponent before playing and its valid to play however. But the more I think about it the less plausible "touching = within" seems as RAW/I.
Please just do these for all the other terrain features too! Defensible on buildings is another one I'd love to see for example.
Thanks for another great video!
Glad you enjoyed!
This content is epic. Thanks for doing this.
Cheers!
So, obscuring mean it's a pillar untill someone touches it for LOS. Heavy cover is melee cover if you're in and aren't charging. Everything else is a LOF cone cover for hit if you're unit is behind or save is models are behind, depending on what has what rules.
You covered the topic pretty fast.
Thank you for making videos on these rules.
P.S. Where can we buy your mousepad objective markers?
For the line of sight thing on larger units we house rule it as "draw line of sight to the *main body parts* of the enemy model" tldr we dont count wings, weapons, lower arms, antenna, spears etc etc
I'm lovin' it
A bunch of trees (dense cover) between two units 24" appart is -1 hit. Seem counter intuitive though if they have weapons that ignore line of sight.
Height restrictions on dense and obsuring terrain traits are there so that we can quickly tag the pre-defined terrain types (ruins, containers, forests) onto our terrain. This is intuitive for the players, depite actually being more words in the rules. Should we have Foliage and Forest? Large and small ruins? Maybe.
14:59 Since attacks are made model by model you have to check for dense after each model fires. If there was a second marine in the marine unit, and the first one did three wounds and he defending player chose to remove all 3 genestealers outside of cover, the second marine would suffer the dense cover penalty when firing into the unit.
This means you have to semi slow roll when firing at a unit where some of the models in the unit are inside of dense cover and some of the models are not.
Kind of; Dense is applied model-by-model, so it's often the case that some of your unit will be shooting at -1, but the rest won't.
That said; attacks can be rolled together or individually at the discretion of the controlling player. The rules governing fast rolling aren't very clear however, so exactly how it works comes down to house rules.
In my events players are allowed to fast roll out the unit (with all attacks that would be resolved in sequence) and only check for Dense at the start, but that's not always the case.
This is my interpretation too.
Negative. LOS & Range (and terrain interactions) are definitely done on a model-by-model basis but that is determined before the first shot from any model in a unit is fired. Pg 216-217 covers this fairly well. You select shooting *unit*. Select target unit(s). Allocating weapons/testing ranges/etc. Then move on. By the time you're at Making Attacks's - Hit Roll, all of that should be sorted.
What you're describing is what happens when you move on to a different *unit*.
@@TacticalTortoise fast rolling definitely could use a bit of clarification. There’s been a few edge cases since 9th dropped that make it a bit odd.
It really comes down to if you think dense cover is an ‘ability’ or not. If it is, you can’t fast roll, if it’s not, you can.
Personally, I always try to avoid fast rolling if I think I would get an advantage out of fast rolling I wouldn’t normally get if I were slow rolling. But there’s a ton of minor edge cases so it’s hard to make a hard and fast ruling on it for sure...
@@PinoyCarter LoS and range have no effect on dense cover. You are conflating two rules that do not interact. Attacks are done model by model. When the model makes its attack is when you check for cover.
Because people like having guidelines for when a rule would be more likely to be applied. So its reverse causation. We gave this piece of terrain obscuring BECAUSE it is over 5 inches tall rather than the other way around. Its worded in a way that guides people to take that stance rather than forcing them to do so.
Also shots are resolved one at a time. If they kill the one dude they can see outside dense cover and its removed, the remaining shots are at -1
What height requirements should have been are guidelines (like their suggested keywords for each terrain type); "We *recommend* that you only apply this keyword to terrain at least 5" tall" etc.
It's kind of offensive the designers don't think the players/TOs can be trusted with the decision themselves, and it's already causing problems at events.
I have to say, I HATE how terrain works in this edition. Everyone said terrain was to simple in 8th, but I thought it worked fine. Most games of 9th I’ve played (which isn’t many) have started with “I don’t really get terrain, do you?” “Err, not really. Let’s work it out later...”
I subscribed as a lover of dad jokes.
They're British, they love hearing themselves talk and GW forces it's writers to put as much word vomit as possible on a page. That's why there are height requirements for terrain.
We don't play tournaments and just use true line of sight per model to model.
The height requirement for obscuring is specifically for ruins, that comes in all shapes and sizes
I've played one game ever (yeah, I'm a noob). My first adversary explained me nothing and just crushed me.
I'm still so confused about rules. This has helped a lot, but I still have doubts I can't figure from the rule book (I play guard, line of sight is essential to me)
Question on dense cover: Because the core rules are written assuming all attacks are rolled 1 at a time and models are removed one at a time (see "Making Attacks" in the core rules), shouldn't ranged attacks made against units partially in dense cover (for example: three necron warriors are in range and outside of dense cover while another 17 are inside dense cover) be slow rolled, one at a time? That would mean that, assuming the 3 necron warriors are killed, all subsequent warriors in dense cover are -1 to hit. This seems to be the correct sequence to me; what do you all think?
Please go over rules I like your videos and it would be nice if to have you cover them
With regards to dense cover, what is the consensus on if you’re firing through multiple dense covers? Say for instance two separate clumps of trees are between your infantry unit and another. You have LOS and it passes through both terrain features. Is it -1 to hit or -2 to hit in that case?
Or say a clump of trees is in front of ruin with enemy units in it. They receive the +1 to their armor on top of you having -1 to hit correct?
Being in Dense Cover is a binary state. If the enemy unit has it, you're at -1 to hit.
You can be in Dense Cover and other kinds of cover yes.
I am confused about a potential interaction at 4:17. I understand that despite the space marines touching the outside wall of the obscuring terrain they can still cannot see the genestealers because the genestealers are on the other side of the obscuring terrain and not within it, so essentially the entire foot print of the building is just something you cannot see through if you’re not in it. However, when you say that you need to be able to draw line of sight to begin with before even considering if the terrain is obscuring does that mean that the building is blocking light of sight because the space marines aren’t within it or does that mean the building is blocking line of sight simply because there are not windows/holes in which they can physically see the model through? Essentially what I am asking is, with THAT specific piece of terrain that you are using (windowless, etc.) would the space marines be able to draw line of sight to the genestealers if the space marines were touching the wall of the obscuring terrain AND the genestealers were standing within the footprint of the terrain? I’ve had this come up a lot in TTS games where a building was obscuring keyworded in its description but in the “literal sense” you couldn’t see through its walls.
We were getting obscuring wrong, interpreting it in a way where it meant my knights could always be shot even if it was completely unseen, we thoight it overwrote the need for line of site.
Drink everytime he makes a terrain pun.
are you using one set in tts for all the models or is it individual packs for every army?
Can you please make a video on how deepstrike has changed? Me and my mates can't find anything about how you have to be within 6" of the table edge
The 6" off the table edge is only a requirement for Strategic Reserves
how do models from other allied units effect cover? say if i had a space marine behind another tactical marine squad or behind a dreadnaught could he still fire at the enemy? would they just receive a negative 1 to hit if he had line of sight at all?
Models do not provide Cover, but models outside your own unit *can* block LOS (although it's insanely hard)
how do you GET THE BENEFITS of light cover? TOUCH the terrain, shoot through it? Have to be on top of it? not one person can show me an example of how it works. Case in point I am shooting at 24 inches at a Ork boy. Between me and him is a shipping container. He is at range 24" . Does he get light cover?
You have to be within. Touching isn't within, when you are touching the outside of its terminus. GW released images showing the footprints of ruins to clarify this. Within starts on the inside of the solid object that ends it. For partial ruins, they show a way to resolve it - drawing a straight line between both end points. You have to be on the footprint, not outside of its solid object that defines its end.
Would you do a video explaining how camo cloaks work when in cover. I get it but done and confuses me... No hard.
You get +2 to your save from light cover instead of +1.
I think GW should make it so that you can only shoot a unit if you can see at least half or 1/4 of a major limb ie (chest, arms, leg, head)
In terms of determining line of fire, what if it is blocked from something other than the terrain that is giving cover to the target? Say, my unit is on the second floor of a building with windows. Due to the high angle my unit is able to see the entire base of the enemy unit below, that is hiding behind cover. The bases of my unit can not "see" anything though (due to the wall of the building my unit is looking out of). Does the enemy get cover? Do I draw a cone from other parts of my model to the entire enemy models base? Do I ignore the wall of my units building to determine the line of fire from my bases to the enemy units bases?
So at ~ 12:00 -ish - is it up to the opponent to decide which saves are going to which models and do you separate the saves with cover and out of cover accordingly? Or is this just a bulk save roll?
nvm you answered it at 14:00 lmao
:)
Question please: In the video at 3:34 the ultramarines are said to be able to see the genestealers because the marines are TOUCHING the outside of the ruins. However the rulebook says obscuring terrain blocks LOS unless units are "on or within" it. I don't believe touching the outside counts as "on or within"- correct? If so, how do the marines have LOS? Thanks!
I explain how being "within" an area is defined at that exact timestamp xD
@@TacticalTortoise Thanks for the reply good sir! Page 199 of the Core Rulebook defines "within" as "it applies so long as any part of the model's base (or hull) is within the specified distance." It doesn't say "touching," but rather, "a part of the base within." So, I guess my question is, how is touching the outside of something showing that part of the base is "within" that something? How is touching enough to be "inclusive" when "part of base within" is specified? Not being disagreeable at all, I just want to understand where the touching interpretation comes from (I'm participating in a 40k tournament tomorrow :) ) Thanks!
@@TacticalTortoise Also, sorry for not wording the original question better. I appreciate your videos very much! Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Thanks for putting this together. I do however disagree with there not being a point to the height minimum on the obscuring feature. The whole point of obscuring is there is essentially an infinite height to the feature in game terms. Surely it is a good idea to tell players what the minimum point is when this should start. Can this low wall be obscuring? No. This 2 inch hill? No.
Yeah; but it should be a guideline, not a rule. If people want to call a 2" hill obscuring because they don't own enough super tall terrain to make a balanced board, just note whether or not the keyword is suggested; don't require them to houserule it.
Military, cover = protection, obscure or conceal = block line of sight
Question: How can vehicles/monsters etc gain the benefit of dense cover if only infantry/beasts/swarms gain the benefit of cover for being
Dense Cover has its own rules for getting its benefit. The "Infantry/beast/swarm get the benefit if within area terrain" etc. rules only affect Light and Heavy cover.
TLOS needs to bugger off! (I play Tyranids).
What happening if my unit has a LoS only on some models of the enemy units? can i kill everyone? or just what i see?
How do vehicles work after charging? If a doomsday arc charges, does it then use WS for hits and A for the amount of shots on its guns?
If firing it's guns it uses BS and the number of attacks on the weapon's data sheet during the shooting phase
If in melee it uses its WS and A from its data sheet in the melee phase.
Hi, i found this
Yes. Unless you can draw straight lines, 1mm in thickness, to every part of at least one model’s base (or hull) in the target unit from a single point on the attacking model's base (or hull) without any of those lines passing over or through any part of any terrain feature with this trait.
It says base or hull, so why are you sayin' its only base to base? I have troubles understanding dense cover an how to use it
Does dense cover trigger „in cover“ abilities like the one of the Eliminators?
It's long but I suggest reading to the end. Cloaks are probably slightly better than you thought.
Dense has nothing to do with "receiving the benefits of cover". It's a penalty applied to the shooter, which is also why it applies when we're targeting non-infantry, beasts, or swarms. If you're on the other side of the board, in the open, but Dense Terrain is between your guys and the shooter, you do not get +1 armor.
Also, were it not for the first 9e FAQ, rules that ignore cover benefits (like your Executioner Rounds or my Solar Pulse Strat) would still take a penalty. "Any rule that ignores the benefits
of cover, or that ignores the benefits of cover that impose a penalty on hit rolls, would still ignore that penalty" is the only reason they don't. This line of reasoning is probably why they had to FAQ it.
-b-
That being said, "receiving the benefits of cover" isn't trait dependent. The terrain *category* sets the conditions for a unit to be considered as receiving the benefit of cover (p260-261). Traits define what, if any, rules impact there are for receiving those benefits. e.g. Light/Heavy doesn't give you the benefit of cover, they give units that are receiving the benefit of cover (due to the terrain category) armor bonuses.
A terrain piece could have zero traits, and because of the way they decided to word it, Camo Cloak would proc +1 to armor, so long as they met the qualifications (like being in Area Terrain). It would mean nothing to most units, like a blob of Necron Warriors, since neither the zero trait terrain or the warriors themselves do anything with that benefit of cover.
I have a question concerning obscuring cover. I understood it slightly different. For me the rules say, that you have to see the complete base of the hiding model to attack. For example a vehicle is hiding behind a wall. The vehicle can shoot at targets, that can be completly be seen from any part of the shooting vehicle. But you can't shoot at a target which is partly hidden behind obscuring terrain, because a model is in cover as long as any part of the model is behind cover while drawing a line from the attacking to the target. Now what is right? Or was this video from an old edition?
I am confused and hope that my question was not confusing aswell ;)
I think your confusion is that Obscuring terrain =/= Cover
The two mechanics are entirely seperate
So should I add bases to my GE ruins so we can see if your within or not?
Honestly I'd just use the Obstacle rules for ruins and say you can see through them if you're touching/on top of them. Plays more cleanly and makes more narrative sense than area terrain.
So monster still receive the benefits of cover if in hive fleet jormungander but not if in a different fleet?
Basically
Two infantry units both whole within light cover terrain in combat with each other in the shooting phase gain the benefit of light cover (aka +1 save) while shooting each other with pistols?
Yep
@@TacticalTortoise oh amazing thank you :)
Does the -1 to hit of dense cover apply to weapons that do not need line of sight? Things like mortars or basilisk
Yep! In fact, it's one of the best defenses against artillery
Man I am glad I do not play 9th that is dumb. Mind you they should bring back templates and guess range weapons
The changes to cover were so important. GW finally joined the rest of the tabletop world in how most cover is calculated. It made 40K bearable for me.
Was in a tournament recently and has a discussion with the opposing team about shot allocation.... 1 of thier tanks fired at one of my units, that tank had lots of guns ... after one of the guns killed a few of my modles and they had been removed my opponent wanted to stop rolling cos the tank could no longer see the remainder of my unit... i told them it's ok cos all the units guns "fire at once" so if it was was visible when you allocated shots you can keep rolling.... that's right isnt it? Also how does that interact with some models in a squad being in cover and some not??? Thanks guys
You're abslutely right. I believe this exact kind of scenario is even mentioned in the rulebook. If you could see a unit when you started firing with a unit, then even of the unit does not become visible due to losses you still finish all the shots from your unit.
Cover on the other hand depends on a model by model basis. If you target a unit that has most of its models in cover but a few models out of cover, then your opponent may select the models that are out of cover but then when he fails the save he has to remove that specific model (I could be wrong though, been a while since I haven't been able to get a game going).
When you declare a target, all your shots are 'locked in' at the targeting step.
So while technically each shot resolves one at a time, because they've already been targeted range and LOS no longer matter.
Seconding calls for GW to deliver us from the scourge of True Line of Sight. Adding TLoS into the game was a mistake.
me and my friends use a house rule for this bad los based on model and so if i can see clearly a good chunk of the model or i can see the base i can see it, if i can see a hand, the point of the sword, a spike, a weapon i'm not able to see it. they do weird models that most of time go out of the base , they should rewrite the rule like: if any part of the base of your model can see the base of enemy models you can actually see the model
So Heavy cover gives a +1 save to shooting and a +1 to melee as long as you did not charge?
No; heavy cover *only* affects melee.
The terrain would have to have the light cover keyword as well to affect shooting.
@@TacticalTortoise So a piece can have both light and heavy cover key words? Why would heavy cover not get the +1 save, seems interesting that light cover is better than heavy for shooting. Just trying to understand.
I use Belakor as my Daemon Prince of Tzeentch Warlord, hes a tad smaller than the normal daemon prince. Is that legal in a competitive game? Or can I only get away with that in casual?
There aren't any rules about proxying or conversions in the core rules, but many competitive events will have specific rules about proxying/converting custom minis - a lot of them won't allow it, but it's always worth checking with the organizer whether they'd be cool with it.
wait hold up. so if a massive creature has just a tiny bit of its wing or what ever, behind cover, (lets say maybe 95% of the model is visible) then the last 5% means that line of fire is broken, and it thus gains the defensive bonus of said cover?
Is it the entire model or the entire base?
Base or hull. Any part that is past either of those points do not count for determining dense cover. Case in point mortarion wings will typically not count t
@@Nilmur2 what is hull? its either the base or the model.
@@danielhammer619 you will see hull come up every so often it’s only for vehicles that are larger than their base typically, such as landspeeder, stormspeeders repulsor. Or vehicles without a base. Land raiders and leman russ. I’m not sure if the terminology is still the same but the hull typically refers to the main bulk of the vehicle, easier to determine for space marine tanks it’s typically the square footprint of the model but not weapon sponsons
What is the point of having a base if it's only used for some things?
Personally, I hate the idea of base yo base Los, surely that means anything over 1cm thick block Los completely? Or am i misunderstanding
So what about weapons like Mortars and other line of sight ignoring weapons?
They ignore line of sight.
@@TacticalTortoise but do you still get -1 to hit when the shot passes over dense? Can you target something behind Obscuring when you don't need LOS?
@@matjov like he said; they ignore line of sight. Not line of fire. Unless the weapon specifies otherwise (usually by stating targets of that weapon cannot benefit from cover) then cover is still granted despite LOS being ignored
Fell down into this rabbithole of rules today. And cant accualy confirm that touching obsuring terrain counts as being within it. So if anyone knows where to confirm that Rule please let me know 😊
Measurements in 40k are inclusive; so being on the edge of a distance or area is considered being "within" that distance or area.
It's described in the "measuring distances" section.
@@TacticalTortoise thanks. Gonna go check the rulebook ❤️
Comment for the comment
So at tournaments do they not just draw line of sight from the base? That's really dumb and means certain builds of models are advantageous over others for no real reason.
Nope; the 40k rules require that LOS be drawn to and from any part of a model
Believe me the game would be MUCH improved by base-measured LOS
@@TacticalTortoise thanks for the confirmation on that; I thought maybe tournaments might make clearer and more consistent rules over the standard ones.
I've come back to 40k after many years away. I used to play in 3rd edition and line of sight being "true line of sight" and/or measured from the model was always an argument starter. At least back in the day we weren't doing tournaments (at least not in my FLGS) You'd think they'd have sorted it by now.
I've played so many other wargames and tactical games that have line of sight rules that are from the base or from other much more elegant and solid definitions.
Sometimes I have to believe people are right and that GW don't actually want to make their game better; too stuck on their traditions in some way.... but then they go and do things like adding Command Points and Stratagems which have become out of control.
Dear Trevy .... make more of this content.... maybe less puns though
yes to both
I make no promises with regards to punnage.
Players of 40k spend way more time fixing the crappy, illl-defined, over overcomplicated rules than the actual 40k writers.
Is this for 8th edition?
9th edition
@@TacticalTortoise ty for confirming! 😀
Thanks for the video but fuck man, nine editions and GW still can’t clean up all this fiddly bullshit.
Oh so that's how terrain works ... It is overly complicated for absolutely no fucking reason
And like what happens if lets say a Redemptor Dreadnought shoots 12 shots into a model that is out of cover while the rest of his 19 mates are in light cover ? If I let's say for a reason decide to use the standard save and not the cover one does that mean that 12 wounds saving on 4s and they can only kill the out of cover model essentially wasting lets say 10 shots ?
No; you don't target *models* with attacks, only *units*
So if you wound a unit 10 times they still need to take 10 saves and (potentially) remove 10 models.
@@TacticalTortoise but will they take the cover save or their normal one due to one of the models being exposed and in line of sight and line of fire ?
@@Papasiak Even if the firing model(s) can only see one model in the target unit, wounds can be allocated to any model in the target unit. If some models are in light cover and some aren't, then quite literally any wound allocated to a model in light cover will get to make their save with a +1 modifier, whereas wounds allocated to models not in light cover won't receive the modifier.
@@electricsheep8973 can you allocate all your wounds on the covered models ?
You cant remove the hormagaunts in cover first. Units outside of cover MUST be removed before units inside of cover. I cant remember where that rule is written but there is a rule somewhere i believe stating this. Which also means having a single guy poking out holding an objective while the rest remain in cover, dont work, because the guy poking out must be removed first when taking casulties
Nope; saves are allocated by the unit's controlling player, and they are absolutely allowed to allocate them to models benefitting from Cover. You're thinking of the 8e rules :)
@@TacticalTortoise was that an 8th rule? i was pretty sure that was a 9th rule
the how to play guide for 9th specifies that you draw an imaginary line between the 2 models' bases. It doesn't matter if they stick out, the rules for 9th were changed with this in mind
Not sure what you're referring to?
Why so complicated?!??
Wow this is really broken! Every other instance you use the models base unless it says otherwise. Dense cover works the right way though? The tip of a tail sticking out when the model is behind obscuring, and you can shoot them? Makes zero sense.
dense cover is kinda dumb, if you use obstacle cover rules with line of fire this becomes obsolete in my opinion, some of the cover rules are just uselessly bloated and simply not practical or fun to play with
I REALLY don't remember Terrain Rules being this fucking obnoxious in 8th Edition. 🤮
Same from 4th Edition where I last played before picking it up again recently...
I don't get why the terrain rules from Cities of Death weren't good enough as they seemed far more intuative than what we have now.
What I get from this is don't use the obscuring keyword/area terrain if you don't want rules-lawyer arguments!
i would just always play with 8th edition rules when it comes to terrain. waaaaaayyyyy easier
Never understand the whole cover rules I just follow the simple line of sight rule.
Games Workshop really need to simply the rules, and make them more intuitive - instead of the ridiculously counter-intuitive nonsense we have:
1) Defender chooses which model to remove - Really? That's so dumb. I am aiming at your model in front of the ruin - but you remove the model the one from the back that can't even be seen. Attacker should choose what to remove.
2) Shooting can kill more models that you can see - One model in a unit of 20 popping its head around the corner, but the rest are undisputedly out of sight? Unlucky buddy, my 30 shots hitting/wounding on 2+ rerolling just wiped your ENTIRE squad.
3) Close combat - Killing reach of Multiple models vs Single models. Unit of 10 Genestealers in a straight daisy chain get charged by a single model unit, say a Captain. Touching on the end of the line, Genestealers get one, maybe two models to fight if second is with 0.5". Single model unit gets swing 6+ attacks, and can kill models he can't technically reach... Also, see 1) about pulling models defender pulling models which are many inches away. Let attacker choose those which are next to it.
And however many more completely unintuitive rules. Don't give me this BS about "Speeding the game up" either, because all it does is cause arguments and spend hours pouring over badly written rules trying to figure out why it is so COUTER-INTUITIVE. Seriously GW, please change this BS. If you can see it - you can hit it. If you can't see it, you can't hit it.
Take the kill team approach - if its partially obscured, it has light cover etc. If you can see all of it, it doesn't.
the rules are really dumb in this game im not gonna play it
GW uploaded images, showing the footprint within distinctly only includes the areas within the walls, it doesn't even count the solid walls that end the area within the ruin. The walls are the terminus, so you aren't even touching the footprint of the area when you are against the outer wall, you are still a measurable distance away.
www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/jK0eATyScM2JnkV3.jpg
That was their a suggestion on how you houserule a specific terrain kit that they built; not a core rule.
You can define the footprint of area terrain however you like tho; as long as you clear it with your opponent.