Everything Wrong With the Lore of SpellForce 3
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- A rant video where I talk about all the bigger lore mistakes that made it into SpellForce 3.
If you enjoyed the video, like, share, subscribe, and let me know in the comments if you want to see more video like this.
Things I mention in this video:
-Old official Phenomic articles and short stories (in German): steamcommunity...
-Steam forum post mentioned in the video: steamcommunity...
►Fan Discord: / discord
►Fan Forum: forum.spellfor...
►Fan Website: www.spellforce...
Relevant videos:
The Renegades: • The Renegades | SpellF...
The Guardians: • The Guardians | SpellF...
Geography of Eo Finale: • Geography Finale | Spe...
Aonir and Eo: • The story of Aonir and...
Official SpellForce Discord Link: discordapp.com...
Follow me on Twitter: / spellforcec
Related Videos:
-The Guardians: • The Guardians | SpellF...
-The Renegades: • The Renegades | SpellF...
-RUclips Channel Content Update: • RUclips Channel Conten...
Purchase the game: SpellForce Platinum
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SpellForce 2 Anniversary Edition
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SpellForce 2 Faith in Destiny
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SpellForce 2 Demons of the Past
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SpellForce 3
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SpellForce 3 Soul Harvest:
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Haha while the writing of SF3 by itself is 10/10 for me, I can clearly understand the disappointment a any player previously invested into the franchise would feel. The homework done is a measly 03/10.
Imagine Witcher 4 describing Geralt as having been 'born' into the Witcher race, or a new Harry Potter book showing Harry as the grandson of Dumbledore. Familiar people would feel betrayed.
As much as I respect your vision as fan of original content (I feel same about Elder Scrolls), now I feel kinda like you've just made stinky pile of something on the story I really enjoyed not focusing on all these details (by saying "details" I don't mean to say, these are not important or minor). I just really liked the ideas and problems they showed in Spellforce 3 like:
- Should as powerful entities as Mages be controlled (kept under control) ?
- Feelings of common folk towards Mages, that ignore moral rules in search for power.
- Revolution
- Influence on "fine made set of beliefs" in right moment in order to focus on (personal?) threat
- Scale of danger it can pull if it will follow with it's momentum
- Interesting type of Antagonist (i always liked) - guy, that believes till the end he is not doing "evil" , but "good"
- Another moral dilemma - artificial life... Looking at it from the point of view of pious person and scientist
I can't say also I didn't like personality of our little pack of Mages, that at the time will become greatest Mages of Eo. After we make bonds with them, hearing their story, their personal philosophy (which was made beautify imo... You don't need to say shit like "Oh! All of them had stupidly/unnecessarily tragic past". From point of view of story writer and fantasy book reader I can tell these were made really good, considering some "actual books" you pay for which are Focused on Selling Story, have so awful characters you want to send writer to primary school).
The third thing I loved about Spellforce 3 was the feel of something more "adult". Not because of curses, that appeared here and there, although I admit these made me smile (like my Gor saying "Shit..." when something bigger was about to emerge out of the Fial Darg prizon). Reading the following story I felt like I am not in black and white world of heroic fantasy.
Of course, somewhere in the distance you could see that rather clear shape of "rescue the world" goal, but all these things around could make you feel it is actually quite serious.
Finishing my comment. I like Spellforce 3, and I like it mostly because of story, because of how it was written, characters and it's "maturity". I understand your pain and I agree they could do much better research in lore, but I would butcher some lore myself if that would make feel story and depth of my fantasy universe better.
100% agree, I just picked up the series and the story I thought was superior to any I have played before (especially warcraft). Ice Wraith pointed out a lot of these interesting story elements that make me invested in the world not to mention the dialog choices (albeit maybe inconsequential in the greater sense) make me think about my "moral" standards. I didn't play any previous game or read anything about the lore so as long as it is consistent with itself I have no problem with it. I understand the rant but I would just say that since there is not a lot of youtube videos about spellforce 3 it would be useful a to explain that this are extremely minor things and the overall story of the game is good (at least in my opinion). Good work anyways with the content Spellforce Community! I look forward to watching more videos :)
So you are probably not a big fan of lord of the rings either or?
@@Leonidar141 idk is that answer to me or @SpellForce Community.
I read lotr. I watched lotr (hobbit too). I like it really and appreciate it, but it is not my favourite.
I love Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere (Mistborn, Stromlight Archives, Warbreaker, Elantris).
@@xxteareyexx Ok then it is obvious that you wouldn't like the first Spellforce game which is really more Lord of the rings fantasy oriented or in other words Black and white Fantasy.
And the developers of Spellforce 3 said before they released the game that they wanted to build in elements from Game of Thrones and the Witcher which in my opinion does absolutely not fit in the Spellforce series.
This reminds me of the Lord of the rings series that amazon is currently working on and that the producers said that they want to bring game of thrones elements (like the sex scenes rape scenes politics and intrigue) in. And they got a lot of shitstorm from lord of the rings fans for that in my opinion rightfully so because it doesn't fit in the Middle earth universe. And this is why some Spellforce fans like me really don't like Spellforce 3 and the direction it goes
@@Wormic Tbh the Circle Mages themselves aren't that big of an issue for me because they are at least likeable and have room for personal growth after their adventures together. If anything it just makes me sad remembering that pretty much all of them die horrible deaths at the hands of past friends or turn straight evil.
I actually have a theory about all of this, I think the team realized the screw-up they did in Spellforce 3 about the lore. Because during the campaign of Soul Harvest the idea of multiple universes was such a central part of the whole thing. Raith is an expert on the matter, bringing items from other universes in order to progress as a mechanic, the fact that you help Yria see into other versions of herself, and most importantly the final boss is literally a multiversal being that destroys universes and offers you the chance to go to another universe exactly the same as your current one but in which everything bad you did never happened.
It seems that they wanted to come and say that we were actually playing a different reality and that it was detached from the original story as in ``Were sorry guys. We realize that the long-time fans didn't take well to the new story we created so in order to compromise let's just agree that this is an alternative universe separated from each other okay´´. But the executives of THQNordic refuse to back down and still claim that is ALL canon
Well researched and explained, good job in assembling most of the lore issues, it's not that I dislike SF3, I love the gameplay but stuff like the lore changes to the Blades, the Falcons or the origin of the Circle Mages really triggered me as well, keep it up!
Lore and world bulding is just there to give a foundation to a story. While I see why you'd be upset that Grimlore hasn't really done a good research about previous entries, the new games should be seen as a reimagination of Spellforce universe. If we are being honest, Spellforce 3 has excellent character development and a solid enough storyline. For me, it would be better to make a video about changes in the lore from previous Spellforce games to Spellforce 3. This kind of video does a diservice to the world building that Grimlore has done with their incredible artists (SP3 is by far the prettiest game in the series and one of the best looking isometric games ever) and solid writers.
As someone who hasn't played previous SP games, I was immediately drawn to Spellforce 3 world and these lore innacuracies are more important for hardcore fans, which I respect, but in my opinion it's better to build a community based on new and old fans alike.
An interesting spin on the hole lore issue of SpellForce could have been a problem real life historians often face: How much do we glorify the past. Now I read your comments on the issue and you mentioned that the developers of SF3 consider their story as completly canon without much explanation, so I won't consider the point I am about to make as a valide defense of the developers of SF3, but rather as an interpretation you could take:
Speaking as a historian, we often face the problem of mystification or exaggeration of historical events. Same argument could be made for the circel mages. Those people were in an invariably position of power, so they could have altered their heritage in any way they wanted. Covering up their poverty struck origin would be in their interest, since they wanted to be perceived as being of unreachable power.
Also the time percived by the aftermath societies of SP1 and SP2 is questionable at least. While the earlier lore suggests a shorter amount of time the lore of SP3 suggests a longer time frame, which is not unheard in acutually history. Dramatic catastrophies or rapid social changes - like a world ending catastrophy - can alter the
time perception of a society drasticly - although the events of SP1 take part a few years after the convocation so either the event had to be so dramatic that it was burned into the social memory of all nations or they fucked a bit with the lore - the last point seems more likely.
What I want to say is, that SP3 could have been a very cool addition to the existing SpellForce lore if they would have communicate the events more as the real happenings in contrast to the events of SP1 and SP2, which could have been a romanticed and exaggerated perception of the events prior to the convocation. The game ultimatly didn't communicate this so it remains to be a
wishful imagination of mine. A story that decunstructs the power of the circle mages and outs them as mere motals who had been favored by pure luck and alterd their history and therefore the history of the world in a power trip, could have been really cool. It could haven been a very interesting apporach to the story of SpellFoce as an metaphor for the challanges of the interpretation of history (what happened and what is just mystification), an approach that unfortunately wasn't taken.
Also as a more personal addition: I liked the worldbuildung of SP3 a lot. As another comment pointed out, it felt more "adult" and more nuanced by giving the dark races a greater canon of motivations and belives besides being warmongering dickheads. Maybe I came to this conclusion, because I very recently played "Fallen Gods" and I very much enjoyed the Troll arch. But as somebody who also engages in World Building (as a pure hobby I might add) the lore of SP3 felt like a modernization of the original lore, like an attempt to give the hole thing more depth and complicated conflicts.
As somebody who also played all SP-Games multiple times, I very much understand where your critisism comes from, although I think you tend to nitpick sometimes (but the critisism is still very much legit).
Spelling mistakes and grammatical errors can be kept by the person who finds them, since I am not a native speaker an my brain is just fryed after 8h Zoom sessions.
@@WormicWait, is that the same guy who is the narrative lead for the Gothic Remake now? Lietzau-Schreiber? If it is, then my expectations for the Remake have just gone out the window..
I've been playing this series and thought some things just didn't make sense and now I see why. Thanks!
This is the same issue I take with Dragon Age.
Apparently in between games Quanari grew horns, cities moved, and magic changed.
If you want to make major changes DON'T CLAIM IT'S CANNON. It never works if you don't put in the work!
You forgot the voice^^
at least they tried to explain that there are Qunari without horns
pretty sure they are used as spies
Nah you just a simple Dragon age elietist
Oh man this is so good! Are there any more vids in the EWW series or did you decide not to drop it altogether?
@@Wormic Fair enough! I watched your vid and asked the question right after beating Soul Harvest and before learning more about the situation, I was really confused about the lore in relation to the original games. I appreciate the work you put into your vids, well done and I can't wait to see more :D
While i respect the original lore and your loyalty to it, there are many points that either completely wrong or at least arguable. So, i`m going to play devil`s advocate and point them out.
-First of all and the most obvious - The Lost Isles are indeed located north of Nortander, unless you are a part of a flat Eo society. It`s on your own map!
-Human and elves are enemies because elves invaded human village in fist mission.That`s an act of war. And Purity made enemies with everyone, so i don`t see a problem.
-The circle enlisted only the most powerfull mages of that time - well, yes. Does defeating a GOD and saving the world not qualify for you? Isgrimm, for example, while whining, made sense of Mulandirs systems, the runes, how all of this Shaper tech works, he realized a possibility for mind control before everyone else, he crafted legendary gear for you.. he may not sling fireballs like Gor, (although he totally can), but his involvmnet was essential. Also, there weren`t many mages to chose from - most mages were killed during Purity reign or gone into hiding, or join Purity itself. Moreover, they will have 500 years to improve their skills - and thats a lot. Finally, the reason why Circle was so powerfull and feared was the discovery and abuse of archfire - so, obviously they still have ways to go.
-On the topic of Mulandir - in SF3, they found a ruins. In SF1, it`s called the City of a Circle. Doesn`t it make sense, that Isgrimm would have to rebuild entire city at some point from scrap and ruins to be called a proper city? So no real contradiction here.
-No conflicts after mage wars - well, it was more of a coup on a crown, which failed. A few weeks at best have passed since Lacaine seized the power. Compared to other major events world endured up untill SF1, that was indeed small and insignificant episode. After 500 years no one but historians would remember.
-Iron falcons. Yeah, they suck, i`ve got nothing ;)
-How Lacaine made iron ones with only a vision? Well, that wasn`t just a vision. It was vision from unknown entity with godlike powers, disguising as Aonir. Safe to asume it had enough knowledge and power to teach his disciple to make golems. That would also explain why Lacaine had the runes, how he mind controlled lady Myrrah, and was able to recognize Tahar. He was indoctrinated by a chtonic Lovecraftian god to do it`s bidding, that`s how.
-Why Guardians didn`t do anything while that thing was summoned? Easy, actually. In demonology, the mage have to actively invite (summon) a demon into the world, demons can`t cross the borders between worlds on their own, and demons are also an external threat form some other plane of existance. That situation is the same. The entity in question was invited into the world by certain ritual by mortals. Exactly the same happened when Raith invited Shadows into Eo, and Guardians did nothing. Guardians get triggered only when outside threath is forcing it`s way from outside, otherwise summoning demons would be impossible (and Uram would be really sad).
-Why there are so much more Godstones than in SF3? Well, over the next 500 years they could have been destroyed. As soon as Circle oponnents will realize those things can revive them, they will surely attempt to do so. Also, there is actually a lot of land in SF1-2, almost every major location is present, so many gaodstones did survive. Some island could have also been lost because Rohen didn`t find them during portal network construction.
-Yeah, the timeline may have been messed up, though i definetely wouldn`t remember dates form SF1 now. It`s a problem, but it`s easy to fix, and i hope they will. After all, they posted in their news feed in Fallen God that we`ll see a revamped original campaign, with latest mechanics implemented, in a few months. And timeline paradoxes can be fixed with a few line changing, sooo.. let`s hope.
Damn, that`s the longest comment i`ve ever written. I didn`t covered all that i wanted, but i`ll stop here. As a final thought - despite the paradoxes and all, SF3 is indeed a canon NOW. Phenomic isn`t going back, so this is all we will ever get. And the game is great! Have you guys heard, what happened with others old similar franchises from early 2000? Like (Heroes of ) Might and Magic? After few failed mothership titles, they`ve got turned into a MOBILE GATCHA AUTOCHESS bullshit thing! Warcraft? Have you heard of a disaster called reforged? And it was made by the same company even, and it`s lowest rated thing on a metacritic. My point is - Spellforce is incredibly lucky to get a proper game by THQ. Those guys actually treated it with utmost respect! Even though SF always was kinda obscure and unpopular franchise; They could turn it into mobile hellscape too, but they didn`t. A few paradoxes and wrongly stated dates? I can live with that. Community should help correct those things if possible, sure, but the game is awesome and respectful to the old games as is - more than most titles get.
ehrm what?
How are the Lost Isles on the north?
The rest isnt right either, but that one riddles me :D
@@nicolasvollmer8424 Because planets are ROUND. World doesn`t end with the map border. Now take a good look at the map again. I even wrote "unless you are a part of a flat Eo society" to emphasize it. Geez.
@@ragvald8835 well yea, Planets are round but that doesnt change the fact that North ends at the north pole and south at the south pole. So the Lost Isles are in the South not the north. If you are at the North pole every direction is south. If you are at the South Pole every direction is north (except for up, off the planet of course).
I dont know if you are trolling or not, as you brought up that topic and are just wrong. If what you said was true, there wouldnt be North, West, South and East if every direction is just both of the opposites.
@@nicolasvollmer8424 Yeah, you`re right. I was following video game logic, where whenever you cross north world map border you would always appear at south border. But yeah, it shouldn`t work like that.
"The Medusae originate from the *Lost Isles* in *the Timeless Sea east of Xu.* They called to the mortals from their stone temples with magic allurements and attracted many an envious seaman to their shores. Today these envious ones decorate the halls as silent statues of flesh turned to stone."
I prefer spell force 3 lore instead.
You could just say that every Spellforce game takes place in a different parallel universe with changes between them. Kinda like what Final Fantasy does, where in each game some things are simillar and others dont
love the video but it was the fial darg who was breaking the seal , not the undead .
@@Wormic am ende sagt die anführerin der falken auch dass das siegel jetzt halten würde . der eine schüler hat sich ja extra opfern müssen damit es wieder "richtig aktiv " wurde . Sie meinte auch das die Falken unvorsichtig mit den jahren geworden waren und haben nicht gemerkt haben das der fial darg auch aus dem gefängnis noch einfluss auf die außenwelt hatte . das waren auch nicht die original falken die man da angetroffen hat . Die die du meinst ( die dunkle legion oder wie die hießen auf dem Gottwall besiegt haben ) waren die mit der von niethalf gemachten rüsstung usw . die falken sind auch die elite units in spellforce 3 " protector paladine "usw kommen aus deren fraktion.
aber ich stimme dir total zu mit der time line stimmt natürlich was nicht :)
Subscribed. I hope to see more such videos. I always hated all kinds of needless retcons in any kind of media, but the "we are too lazy to check so we'll just make up stuff" type are easily one of the most irritating.
Btw I really hate how Orcs gone from agressive but secretly cowardly green hunched "humans" to warcraft-like big brawny proud warrior race. Or how Dark Elves gone from creepy, large and imposing warrior-mages to short frail-looking wimps with shitty version of Cold Ones Knights from Warhammer. Just... why?
I was so just kind of... Disappointed with spellforces story, the gameplay i actually really enjoy the concept of hunting for the unique parts of armor is awesome, the RTS is unmatched to any other spellforces to me (my opinion obviously) but as i agree with you everything after spellforces first DLC when it comes to story is so mediocre and mid. Plus i think the story would be way better if it was longer, more places to explore and stuff, it just seems so rushed how it's all just GO HERE TJEN HERE THEN HERE NOW STORY PLOT
Kinda reminds me of the situation that fans of the older Persona games have to face after the breakout success of the titles from 3 onwards, with the older games being pretty much ignored by the developer.
I did wonder why in SF 1 Wulfgar is in Greyfell, and in SF3 its the seat of the Royal Family. Or how the Purity of Light's worship of "Aonir" somehow gets picked up by everyone 500 years later. And them changing appearance did baffle me a bit as well, before I just rolled with it.
The Goblins losing their giant heads was a major disappointment for me however. Soul Harvest I think brought them back, but I haven't played it in a while.
I didn't even realize that there were books for Spellforce; I thought it was something Phencomic came up with and that they had some neat short stories written for.
Honestly, and possibly because I didn't play the second game, the story differences didn't bother me too much. It is disappointing to see that the devs didn't do research nor were told the information about the universe, but I found the story there to be engaging enough for one playthrough. Not sure about a second.
i currently playing the Spellforce 3 reforged campaign, and i am enjoying it.
Great job with the EWW's... Now its time to make the video about everlight best map in SF3 pls.
@@Wormic make one about how the norcaine society is apparently based on "politeia" by plato
Recently played the franchise and my headcanon is that they're part of a multiverse, just to be less bothered with the discrepancies.
Angar Arandir was such a good bard, that everybody trusted his leadership skills(learned from his ballads) that they nominated him a general.
I can't believe how nobody figured this out already.... Amateurs.
9:15 sorry but you have to pay attention to both sides for a correct analysis. Andra (the shaper from Spellforce 3) looks just like a taller human with elven ears. Her ''weird/alien'' appearance (which to be honest it's just blue skin and hollowed eyes) comes from the eons she spent in stasis.
So basically Spellforce 3 lore has a WoW lore problem
But has worse retcons about dating.
you forgot something
young rohen was supposed to be a scheming murderous basterd but in spellforce 3 after he betrays the corporal he becomes this humble, sympathetic guy.
Can't wait for more of this. Always wanted to know what was so wrong with the Lore
That was a very well done video! I'm really happy there's actually books on spellforce although i cant read them ;_;
@@Wormic i agree. it has such an underrated story which gets overshadowed by the existence of Warcraft or Warhammer and just doesn't get enought attention. Though i gotta admit watching your videos do make me want to replay all of the games just so i can focus on the lore completely even if there are inconsistencies
@@Wormic it really does especially now that i'm older cause when i was 4 i mostly cared about beating the game but the older i get the more details i notice and always aim for 100% completion :D
Never played spellforce 1 or 2 but loved the lore and story of spellforce 3. I will try and play the first games
For what it's worth, it's pretty much a different universe apart from some familiar names, but it should be fun - I vastly prefer the lore of SF1 and 2, though I recommend you play sf1 in german if you can, the English voice acting is pretty rough
Could it be that the games are not all playing on the same timeline?
If I remember correctly, there was a quest in Spellforce 3 Soul Harvest that suggested something like that. There have also been time travel, so wouldn't it be possible for the Spellforce 3 Soul Harvestin to be in a parallel world / other timeline where the story happened differently?
I think the thought is pretty cool and it would explain the lore problems in Spellforce 3 and I would be really interested in your opinion about it.
@@Wormic Well imagine if they do "man-up" and admit they've done wrong. That wouldn't bring anything good, the lore would still be fucked. So yeah... even if it's a cheap way out, as long as it works why complain if it can save the story.
Though I loved your video, and as a fan of the Warcraft lore, I do understand the frustration when you see stories and plots being simply forgotten
Damn why didn't I find your RUclips earlier. I've been looking for a place to explore the SF Universe for quite some time.
Concerning the matter I have to say I think I am coming from an in between group. My start into the series was with SF2 and I was still pretty young back then, but totally loved the game. However bc I was young and simply enjoyed the story I was told, but didn't look much further into (to this day I never really played SF1, since the graphics are just so damn old). Therefore I was able to experience SF 3 with an "unbiased" mind and once again I really enjoyed the story I was told.
However I 100% understand how this is a heavy disapointment to the people that played SF1 & 2 and got really deep into the story. Once you know something is right, its very hard to not feel disapointment when somebody gets it wrong.
Gonna quickly give you my perspective here, maybe you will find it interesting. The first two games are childhood memories to me, although I could never bring myself to finish SF1, it just was to slow and repetetive for me. SF2 really sucked me in, but lost me in one of the expansions. Still, those games left lasting impressions on me, but that was years and years ago. Now, in a time were the gaming landscape is arguably void of anything resembling a game even close to SF, except for the occasional HD remaster here and there, a small new company haphazardly throws a half finished 3rd installment to the series onto this niche market, just to somehow gain foothold.
And let me tell you, I never enjoyed SF so much. The quality (except technically maybe) and thought put into this little game is astounding to me. To make this kind of game draw me in so much, after I've seen the greatness other games have shown me over all these years of the development of this form of entertainment, I think, really is something. I just cannot imagine how they pulled that off (and seemingly they ONLY JUST pulled it off, again telling from the rough launch).
That is why your video honestly leaves SF3 in even higher regard for me, because what I basically took from it is, that SF3 doesn't just use those names for places, peoples, etc. that I can still remember from back then withought thought (as I would have expected after all this time and who knows how many changes of guards at the developer-side of things). They could easily have done so, as I already have forgotten so much of the lore behind those other games. Instead, in the grand scheme of things, the story of the world does seem to add up, and most of what you critize could be explained to me either by (due) artistic freedom, or are details that could easily be forgotten/ be passed down wrongly by the people in the in-universe history (E.g. just because people living in this world say that something was there for millenia, doesn't mean that's exactly true. Don't forget they have a pretty medieval view on their world).
You say so much of what bothers you could have been made better by just taking a quick look at this quote or that quest. I say it probably still takes much time and effort to get to exactly these sources of information, time and effort that was surely needed elsewhere in development, and in my mind, was put to much better use by creating literally everything else in this game, which again just clicks for me, and not for complete consistency in a lore I don't even remember or could keep track of.
I understand how frustrating this must be for you as someone who really cares about that, but compromise is the nature of creative work. I don't ask myself "what could they have done better", but rather "what part of the game would I sacrifice to improve this other part of the game". And again, for me, there is nothing about SpellForce 3 I could see being sacrificed for this matter, without hampering the experience of the game and thus making it even less popular than it already seems to be.
@@Wormic I see, thanks for the background info.
As for my writing line of thought, I meant that generally doing a "better job", in any way really, always costs time and thus money. I know the writer wont help out the programmer if he has finished his own work. Of course I don't know how it worked out here specifically, I was just generalizing. My point was that lore research also costs time, and unless the writer wants to do it in his freetime, he would have to allocate his own resources to do it, instead of e.g. writing character arcs, dialog or whathaveyou. I am totally with you that, if the writer could have done a better job within the time that was given to him, he should have. But who am I to say? Maybe he needed to get the stuff ready quick, or he had to overhaul time and again because of changes in development. And because what he produced in the end really worked out for me, I didn't see a problem.
Then again, you saying they admitted those errors to be oversights they regret, that does change my mind slightly and it does prove your point. In that case I probably am mostly sorry for the ones responsible, since I know how that feels as I also work in a creative job. I guess all left to do for me is to be glad that I do not care so much about this matter and thus am able to enjoy the game as much as I do because of it. And to feel bad also for anyone who notices these errors and thus suffers from it.
I must admit I valued your video to little. I didn't quite catch those evidences you had through your background info and took it too lightly. Now I appreciate you made it, hoping that it will lead to the devs keeping their promises of improving the lore in the future.
I love spellforce 1 and 3, never played 2. First part of series was great with all those expansions, I remember me as a kid making a project in rpg maker based on this series a lot. Damn, i love these series, but lore changes in sf3 are a bit of pain in the ass. But still, I enjoy this game a lot and hope for more expansions, this time in the correct line of events.
I'm sure that the developers did their research, but the lore is always subject to change for a better and more accessible product. All decisions made was deliberate and in my opinion, makes the series better.
It really annoyed me, that somebody on wiki changed every mention of Blades to 'Hokan's Iron Ones'.
I think they kinda wanted to make everything to be invented by Shapers and rediscovered by the Circle (making Hokan a lot less cool, didn't even invent his own weapons, and it took him 500 years to rediscover them)
Godstones and Bindstones felt like not even a retcon on purpose, just a mistake (i was really confused by that)
Another thing is how SF3 can be inconsistent in itself. You can use godstones / bindstones thanks to shaper rune, so does Uram, Ianna, Rohen, Undergast and even Marshal Arandir randomly had those? If so, how can Arandir (and in SH, Tahar) just die?
@@Wormic That also gave me a good chuckle
"Via those Runes we can now be revived" says Isgrimm
"Holy Shit we are immortal how op" says our Tahar, which is hillarious because Yria can revive our fooking Army as well as Heroes with her abillity which is *literally* called Revive.
@@Wormic omg yeah, how did I not see this yesterday??😄 these are perfect examples of how SF3 is inconsistent within its own lore
07:30 ish. I dont know much about the lore but the circle as a big sharade is kind of a good idea in my opinion. It would also explain why we dont know much about most circle mages: because most of them sucked. And there were only a few truly powerful mages (rohan, hokan + x) who really ruled Eo with a few puppets.
Sorry for coming so late, i like your content and fully agreed but there is one thing that crossed my mind:
Young Rohen in SF1, he went through the portal. As we all know travelling back in time always creates a new timeline. I simply believe they wanted this as in Dragon Ball, BioShock etc.
Which is sad because I really feel the Story of SF1 is the greatest, well written and fueled with content.
How many years will pass that we will get a SpellForce that we deserve?
lets just consider spellforce 3 an alternate timeline
there are books- and more little stories? huh I always only known oneshot in one special edition of Spellforce 2 and it was only some people talking above the campfire. or so I remember.
I feel like they couldn’t figure out if they wanted spellforce 3 to be a sequel or a prequel...
Individually it's good in overall for all them it's screws up but I really do like spellforce 3 I would still recommended to anyone
My k owledge of the lore is just from comleting all SF1 campains (2xOrder, 2x Phoenix and 1x Winter), a lottle bit of SF2 back in the day (now i am trying to replay it but the game has just such a schallow tactical options as well as really bad voice acting and dialoges i am not sure if i will manage), SF3 and SF3SH. I have also read a bit on the wiki.
Even with this uncomplete understanding of the lore i saw many of the retcons- trolls, circle beeing mostly under 1 queen, not all circle mages beeing in it from the start.
And like i have said i do not have a big lore knowledge so for sure i am not here to argue with You when you have (btw i have just found your chanel and i am super eager to learn more about the history and lore of Eo).
What i can and will argue about, is that some of those changes and retcons were good for the game. In SF 1 (and i assume that it is also like that in SF 2, but i am not sure) we have LOTR like mentality- bad guys doing bad things for the badsake and good guys trying to stop them. In SF1OoD there are no choices at all. In Next 2 expancions there are some, but still they are quite shallow. And i feel like they are like that because of the shallow good vs bad mentality. I stilllove this game and i find it beeing really god RPG and quite nice RTS, but it is really shalow one.
Qnd here comes SF3. Much more mature, with real choices and most importantly real NPCs that you can interact with. Your companions that will become the circle are real people with problems. And i find it great that this talented group withmostly tragical stories (not all of them are that tragical so i do not agree that it was forced) just give us something new and much more interesting intothe world. I honestly do not mind a retcon about how circle cameto be- your crew is still busted by the Archfire and kicks absolute ass at the end so they probably still are SOME of the most powerfull mages now- and will grow much stronger inthe future. And like i prefere to see how Gor influenced the orkish culture, wanted to make them better but still true to their nature, and how he came to this conclusion after loosing a friend he called sister. Like that is some deep shit and I must admkt that some of the stories in SF3 and SH made me think. And that is always a good thing, sometimes even worth doing a little retcon.
As for the shapers, i do not know the lore behind them in the previous materials, but i kind of like what we have in SF3. And with such old history of EO could not much knowledge be lost after convocation? Could it not be changed by hoindreads of years in the new reality? Could not Rohen(s) influence it for his reasons? And there is always a posibility of this beeing diferent universe in the multiverse, but i agree with You that this would be cheap.
The one thing i will 100% agree with You is that the timeline should not have been retconed. Because why the fuck for? Like I do not care about those retcons that make the world more i teresting and can be explained at least a bit with the fact that people just lost some of the knowledge or were influenced by surviving circle mage(s). But how they have changed the the timeline was unnecesary imo and could make the old fans like You mad. I understand this, because this was not needed to make game and lore more deep.
So what do You think? If You can for a moment (i know it is hard) stop looking at SF3 from the hardcore fan perspecrive and look at it like a really casual fan like me that just loved SF1, does not like SF2 for its shallowness (in gameplay and at least the first dialogs) and came across the SF3 to maybe fall in love with the series again, would You say that some of those retcons made the game and the world deeper?
Also, now that i have watched some of your videos i am even haply that the timeline was changed! Like the dark rases beeing less than 1000 years old? It sounds really werid imo. The world seems to be really young for all of the races, kingdoms and so one to be in the state they are now. Espefially uf we talk about the "devolution" of shapers into the races of the light.
Same with frmale dwarvs. If there were like in old lore about 1k males to 1female born, every frmale would have to gave birth to about 1k children to maintain the population! And that is flat out stupid!
So yea i really think that they changed the lore much, but they did it for the bether. Of course that is just my opinion
@@Wormic i see your points. Like i have said i do not know how much does the SF3 change the lore so i can not argue about it. And if it is as much as You make it to be than I trust You as someone with bigger knowledge about it. And I understand You as a big gan of the lore beeing angry about it
And maybe a side wuestion, for when You eill have more time- does SF2 story, acting and so one get bether after a few misions? I loved SF1 and SF3 so i finally wanted to go back to SF2 after all of those years, but I just cringe after few first dialogs ang misions
@@Wormic glad to hear that! I will give it a try. Allso I am finishing your lore playlist (today I tide the whole house so i have time) and it really showed me (evem those brief vids) how vast the world is!
I also had no idea it was made by Germans!
@@Wormic i accualy think that You have very strong opinions but what i like is that You present them in the mature and non insulting way. Like I am from Warhammer fandom and I know how toxic the "old guard" of the fandom can be. It is one thing to not like sth and give reasons and arguments about it and it is another thing to just "ahh buhh, old lore gud new bad, fuck you all that do not agree with me". So yea i might not agree with everything You say (with many things I do) but i respect your opinion because You form it in inteligent way
Can You write tittles of spellforce books? I want to try found them 😍
I found them... Only german...
Selbst die Weltkarte in SpellForce 3 ist falsch und aus dem falschen Zeitalter.
SpellForce Community klein? Da fehlen ganze Orte! Ich sage nur der Godwall!
I played Spellforce 1 and 2 with the expansions many times. Apart from the main story, I didn't know much lore about the SF world. But after seeing the video, I can see why people hate SF3 so much. I personally love SF3 and SF1 the most. The good thing of SF3 to me is the reality of the expressions of people and the situations unlike the family friendly previous versions. But seeing that the lore has been altered so much kind of makes me hate SF3 a bit. But to be honest, unless they rework or adjust the lore to the original somehow, I would see this game as a different timeline of Spellforce similar to Mortal Kombat.
I haven't played the original 3, but Soul Harvest and Fallen God are such a level beyond Spell Force 1 and 2's writing that I'm fine with them retconning whatever they want. Fallen God in particular absolutely dwarfs the first two games. If that's the level of quality we can expect from getting rid of the original creator, then good riddance.
Gonna have to agree to disagree there. While the writing in SF3 isn't bad as is, retcons could have easily been avoided altogether - this is just made worse by the fact that the writer openly said that he doesn't care about getting it right. Can't be bothered supporting such devs
I, for one, am really happy that Conquer of Eo went back and focused on the OG lore instead of the retconned version, and I hope it stays that way in the future
I have never read the books of Spellforce or what ever they are calledin the original, and quite enjoeyed the lore of the games, starting from Spellforce 3. I guess the lore was redconed for plaers like me that had no previous knowledge of the lore what so ever, making the story more easy to follow. Which at the same time is kind of weird considering how elaborate the story of soulharvest is :D
One thing though.. You compared the story of the games to the Witcher but the Lore in the games of witcher is also not Cannon. In the books Gerald is left for dead, under what appears to be the Apple tree in heaven with Jennefer by Ciry.. Where as in the games this ending is red coned and continues as if he survived, which has not been confirmed in the books.
Oh one more thing. I get it, that the games red coning the history is frustrating you, and I can imagine many others that know the lore more deeply then the developers clearly did, but at the same time some statements you did are wrong. Not that you got the lore wrong, it looks more like frustration with the Spellforce 3 game.. For example in the game it is stated that the Energy beings, shapers as they are called, are actually some form of animated armour guardian with a spirit of a Shaper in them. An actuall shaper looks, Andra, looks more like a Mummified and then resurected elf.
I am myself a huge fan of the Spellforce series. I played the first game several times and also once spellforce 2 (but lets dont metion that heh) and this winter i had my hands on spellforce 3 and its 2 dlcs. And honestly after i played it i had a real deep conflict. Because yes i saw the many things that dosnt worked togheter. But honestly i enjoyed spellforce 3 way much more than spellforce 1. But hear me out. Spellforce 1 itself have little to no story. The big story behind it is something you need to read or learn outside the game. In the game itself the story feel super forced.
Super short lines. The game dont even try to go deep into its huge potential. And the story have deep potential. And ofc parts of it there realy good. I am a personal fan of the whole story with hokan. But its always feels like they only tell you just enouth so that the game have a story. Now in spellforce 3 the story is realy realy good by itself. Its deep. It have charakter development and it makes (inside spellforce 3) sence. And most importaintly it dosnt bore. Spellforce 1 however does have many slow and boring momends for example the whole first arc there you just run after rohen. After that it gets better tho.
But that dosnt change the fact that i still love spellforce 1 and realy like the game. Its one of my childhoodgames. But story vise part 3 does simply a way better job. And in my opinnion it can be still canon due to a specific line raith skaddar makes in spellforce 3. He mentioned that many realitys exist in that universe and some are even very different from one another. I think that that is in fact what is happening here. For me spellforce 3 is not the same realm as spellforce 1 is. Its a different one there many things just happened to be a lot different. Maybe the convocation wont happening in the spellforce 3 realm? Maybe it does but in an way more destructive way. By that logic you could also argue that spellforce 2 takes place in a different reality. Tho as mentioned i am not realy a fan of spellforce 2 and played it only once so im not deep on that story.
In the end i can understand that many fans are not very happy that they didnt got what they hoped for. But for me personaly spellforce 3 is one of the best fantasy rts games i ever played (exept wc3 no one beats that masterpiece) and i look a lot different on trolls now
No offence, but as someone who just got into Spellforce because of 3, your criticisms do seem overly harsh in some spots and a little hate-y (also imma not lie my first instinct was to say shove it cause i liked 3's story and lore). Now I get it, people hate to see their lore ruined in their eyes or canon be broken...but as someone who has played Dark Souls and Total War Warhammer, I have found that sometimes lore inconsistencies are absolutely fine so long as the gameplay and relative spirit of the world are maintained.
Also in regard to the circle mage characterizations, I personally think their back stories are fine because if someone has effectively been a living god of magic and had 500 years to change the story they probably would (especially since they went from the relatively upright figures with tragic backstories they were to the corrupted forms they were 500 years later). Also in regard to Mulandir, again they were pretty shitty people as they gained power so I wouldn't put it past them (the circle mages) to change the narrative to improve their standing.
The fact is that lore inconsistencies are practically always a problem when you do a prequel so sometimes you have to acknowledge them and process them yourself. Also if i got really biting in this comment, it is because your tone in this video is really inflammatory to someone who likes and started with Spellforce 3 and rubbed a really bad nerve with me.
I know you have a LOT of lore videos on individual games. Could you make a Video Like this, this video is entertaining, explaining the Entire story as the games put it (which confuses the ever living christ out of me), and then putting in knowledge on where a decision was made that made the lore confusing. IDK if Spellforce is such a small community, or if the lore is so confusing that NO ONE but you do lore videos. v.v And I have played EVERY spellforce, and I am so lost on CoE. Yes, I am new to this channel, and If there is something like this that I havent seen in your Video list, someone please point me in the right direction.
The biggest mistake is no dark elfs
Well, after you meet Rohen and Uram, after that, I knew where this would lead,.....again,
@@Wormic The Formation of the Circle, the 13 mages, the rediscovery of the Allfire, the Convocation Wars,
I couldn’t finish Faith of Destiny because it just felt long and anticlimatic
It's okay, Faith in Destiny and Demons of the Past aren't official SpellForce games anway. Faith in Destiny was an abandonware from Trine Games and both Faith in Destiny and Demons of the Past were literal fanfictions from a former forum moderator called Lornik.
If you haven't played the previous games, you'll love this, if you have you'll feel like everything is retconned.
This is basically a DMC: devil may cry case where the devs shit on the white hair of dante etc but where the game itself was not bad, simply it wasn't for the hardcores.
It is a good job of research with factual arguments. Personnally, as a big fan of The Order of Dawn, Breath of Winter and Shadow of the Phoenix, what I like the most is the atmosphere. And for me, what was sorely lacking in SF3, was any kind of atmosphere at least a bit feeling like SF1 games. I just play like 3 - 4 hours of SF3 before I became so sad that I didn't feel the courage to continue, but concerning what I've seen : seems as a standard generic RPG . No more. The design lack sorely of personality, nature could have been populated by animals - which makes the world more vibrant, and so on. Look like a sort of Age of Empire game, with Spellforce name sticked onto it.
Well, because all of this is just opinion, based on personal feeling, I can understand that the video couldn't talk about it - but I can imagine that with your design comparison at the end you may have same kind of feelings towards SF3.
So, as my comment is almost not factual, I would understand it if that serves to nothing to write it, but as they are artists - so hope I - THQ Nordiq guys could maybe understand it und may change the tone of the next SF games...so hope I, in any case.
spellforce 3' stories just go on an on. You get so much information and yet the player cannot do anything with it. I was getting bored of listening to NPC going on about how miserable their pastlives have been.
The tone and the setting seemed to belong to a different game. Like people who are angry at European medieval times or something. It is embarassing and funny.
I find the Shaikan to be incredibly dull and useless but the bit of "humans bad and stupid, orcs honorable and elves misunderstood" of Spellforce 3=🤮.
To the people who like warcraft style of storytelling I have a few words: ruclips.net/video/c7uQzIgfSpk/видео.html
Spellforce was the second RTS I've played after Warcraft 2 so it has a special place in my heart. I understand that some people are upset about the inconsistencies in lore of Spellforce 3 but neglect how well made and written it is.
Lore is a flexible foundation. If it gets us more of something like Spellforce 3, then I say tear down the lore and in with the new.
I didn't read the novels or any book on Spellforce, i just play the games. But even like that, i could see the lore wasn't really the same as the first game. I knew that the Circle has been created by a common accord between all the nations, not just Nortander.
I knew the elves of Sf 3 weren't Morhirs or exiled, thanks for the confirmation^^. I don't know why the developpers wanted to write the elves of Finon mir as arrogant supremacist, plotting against eachother to gain power by any means, i was wondering if they weren't talking about Dark Elves.
And aren't Light and Dark races supposed to hate eachother? especially after the war of six nations? I mean, humans are supposed to see them as them as corrupted abomination that want to bleed the world to death and slaughter them, not befriend them.
In Spellforce, the existence of the gods are a fact, in Order of the Dawn, we can talk to a man who has been blessed by Tiara and than no undead could touch without being destroyed. They leaded the war against the Fiarl Darg, we even TALK to a god several times. why did they erase them?
Yeah, all the bugs and glitches and shitty voice acting. That’s what they also got wrong. VERY WRONG.
Have to disagree on voice acting. Of course, being a new player that started out with SF3, since I can't even remember anything of SF1 apart from the box art and fantastic intro, I was pleasantly surprised by the voice acting. The only voice acting that threw me off was honestly hearing Geralt when Noria spoke. Otherwise I would rate the way voice acting was handled top notch. The way they speak and add little touches here or there is way better than on the majority last few dozens of RTS OR RGPs I've played. Only two games blew me away for VA lately. One was Cyberpunk, which was kinda expected, and one was SF3 and it's standalones.
Of course I have to add it was the english version I've played and while my first language is german I kinda cringe at 95% of german voice acting so I kinda stopped even trying so no idea how good german VA is in SF3. XD
The voice qcting was imo great. It can not even be conpared to SF1 and 2. Those werereally shit!
Welp, it looks like 3 is where I'm going to leave the series. A shame.
Spellforce 3 zerstört die schöne, spannende Welt , die Spellforce ist. Den Schreibern von Spellforce 3 war Politische Korrektheit wohl wichtiger als die Lore...
So sehr ich Spellforce 1 liebe (und SF2 ganz ok finde....);
Politische Korrektheit ist wichtiger als Lore. Ich bin froh, für alle Änderungen dahingehend.
Aber um ganz ehrlich zu sein, die Änderungen für "politische Korrektheit" (oder auch "Anstand") haben nichts mit den Fehlern im Lore zu tun.
@@derharlekin5205 Ich will keinen Poltischen Kommentar über Rassismus , Feminismus , und Schwule. Buhuhu , Du bist von deinem Clan ausgestoßen worden ,weil du Schwul bist .Aber keine Angst ,jetzt bist du Zirkelmagier , und kannst das allles ändern... Soetwas gehört nicht in einer Fantasywelt mit Magiern ,Königen , Göttern...
@@Wormic Genau. Viele Momente mit politischer Korrektheit waren einfach unangenehm ...
Ich muss ehrlich sagen, diese ganzen sozialpolitischen Themen haben das Spiel für mich durchaus deutlich interessanter gemacht, ich finds super. Auch, dass es jetzt endlich richtige Rüstungen für weiblichere Charaktere gibt und nicht mehr nur peinliche Bikiniarmour oder Boobplates find ich klasse.
Ehrlich gesagt kotzt mich die heutige Übersensibilisierung und politische Korrektheit extrem an. Ich erwähne es nicht weil ich jetzt mit euch über PC-Culture streiten will generell sondern weil ich sagen muss: Hey, ich hab SF3 durch und bin bei Soul Harvest im letzten Drittel und ich fands echt nicht der Rede wert. Jetzt als Neueinsteiger natürlich! Also komplett alleine betrachted war SF3 für mich absolut okay von wegen es hat gewisse politische Ansätze und spielt mit teils harten Themen aber war es etwas das uns mitm Vorschlaghammer in den Rachen gewixt wurde? Nah.
Was mir hald nie eingehn wird ist wie ma sich mit den Jahreszahlen einer Timeline oder Namen/Backgrounds von wichtigen Charakteren so vertun kann. Hat wohl nebenbei World of Warcraft geraided während er/sie die alte Lore am 2ten Monitor querreferenzt hat oder so. Anders kann ich mir sowas nicht vorstellen von paar hundert Jahren auf TAUSENDE VON JAHREN zu kommen. Dem is wohl der Main Tank fast verreckt und als er mim Burst-Heal fertig war und wieder auf den Lore Monitor geschaut hat hat er wohl im falschen Absatz weitergelesen. XD
The original campaigns were the most consistent. Plus, the predecessor's Shaikan BS was already a spoiler, and now not even the younger fans are impressed by SF 3..? 🤔 Thanks for reminding me that there are novels to read instead.
Also new free play in spellforce 3 kinda sucks :(
I think I tried the second of the new games and had to close it out when the dwarf boss started swearing like a game of thrones character.
It just ruins my immersion. Why not do what Dragonborn did and have them invoke the gods? Or, even Morrowind, and come up with some clever curses.
Constant swearing, meantions of r*pe etc are just pure cringe to me, why they needed to turn it into Game of Thrones? SF was always a vibrant magical epic fantasy, not some realistic dark fantasy about incest, r*pe and f-bombs every dialogue.
Great video, it good that someone is opnely discussing the issues
here's what i dont like:
Darklands being desert before the circle wars: as it was explained in first game that it used to be green and fertile area before Hokan's undead and Uram's demons waged war in region which devastated the land
Leafshade being tropical jungle:
You don't have to even know the lore to understand of geography works, it feels to me as annoying as if someone made game of medieval europe and turned Italy into amazon
Dark elves:
as said its in dark elf society that manual labour is only fit for slave work while male darkelves rule and fight, also female dark elves were rather rare sight since most of them were kept away due to their magical prowess, so i kinda wished they added slaves rather than souls as dark elf resource in soul harvest
What happen to half naked ferocious amazon type of female elven warriors? it seems to me now there are too many male elves around and elves in general are more like out of Lord of the rings rahter than that unique spellforce style, and we havent even seen ice elves yet which are the ones whose queen stopped Aryn who in returned taught elves ice magic.
Orcs being honoured and having humanoid looks feels wrong, in this case these orc looks like something out of Elder scrolls while sf1 orcs are more like out of warhammer universe
Finally i feel the developers are also trying to mix in this popular political correctness into spellforce games as they already turned Ianna a lesbian and Isgrimm into gay character.
Exactly, good points.
I don't really have any knowledge of spellforce lore but I'm currently playing it. I'm 100% okay with not having a faction using slaves as a resource, your lore can go fuck itself if that's such an important thing to have. Also it's not "Political Correctness" to have gay/lesbian characters, it's called having a realistic world with 'alive' characters.
@@EclipseColdfire yes realistic world is where you live in, thats why you have different franchises with different fantasies to escape real world problems and enjoy yourself once in awhile but if real world crap is dragged into your fantasy, its not fun anymore
@@karl5175 Okay but having gay or lesbian characters in a series isn't really dragging real world stuff into it. Dragging real world stuff into it would be parading the gay flag, or cancelling npcs. There have been gay and lesbian characters in games before, the thing is they were characters first and gay second. Which is the case with Isgrimm and Ianna, who have both very well written personalities and most of that stuff is an afterthought. Like if you played dragon age origins (Which is an old game) you wouldn't say Leliana is trying to create an agenda, she is just a cool character. The same can be said for both of them.
@@yammoto148 but thats the thing, if you have good story, why you need to add that unecessary sexuality factor into it? like this example ,,Character heroically defeats evil demons to save world, also he gay ,, ? In modern times its almost a crime to write a story without any inclusivity or diversity
I think i'm going to get hated for it, but unpopular opinion:
Started to replay Spellforce 1 & 2 as they were my Childhood games, also i didn't want to play Spellforce 3 without having any clue anymore about the lore.
All i have to say is that in my opinion the Spellforce 1 Story is .. bad it's really not that good and time traveling kinda destroyed a whole lot.
The Shaikan story line was cool and such, but they were also never mentioned in the Spellforce 1 game(i didn't play FGM). So ya dunno i prefer the Spellforce 3 Story actually.
I asked one of the devs on stream recently if he even played old SF games, he didn't, he was a gamedesigner, not a storywriter, but it shows in gameplay as well, how they focused more on "we want it for MP!" instead of making an interesting campaign. All RTS maps are literally skirmish against boring cheating AI, with not puzzle or gimmick to it, like in SF1-2. And UI is somehow worse than 20yo game its crazy.
I really can't take SF3...its a biggest disappointment of all "revivals" of old series i've ever witnessed.
Not surprised in the slightest tbh
@@Wormic yeah, just a shame cuz he is not a bad person and enjoy RTS, but it seems like SF3 devs kinda even despise old SF games and Conquest of Eo or ashamed of SF3 being connected to them, by how more "serious" and "realistic" they choose to make SF3 and their focus on MP over campaign, which already is dead to the point SF3 have samey daily players on steam as SF1, which is ironic.
Spellforce 3 and Soul Harvest are factual hot garbage regarding the lore - it saddened me deeply. They need to opt for the cheesy get-out-of-jail card and wrap the shit up with alternate reality mumbo jumbo. I love playing all Spellforce games to this day still, despite in general being a messy and buggy series - but they need to come down hard on the lore direction.
This series has the potential to rise to the renowned levels of Warcraft, The Witcher, Dragon Age and whatnot - but it's being run in the ground time and time again because of half baked writing, poor consistency and shoddy buggy gameplay.