7:24 One thing about Feng's shoulder is that even though it's the longest range, it connects an active frame later, thus making it i14 instead of i13. You can even see it on the clip
The reason Kazuya and Reina's PEWGF's aren't included is because while yes...they do theoretically have the best i13 punisher's in the game, but you literally need to be perfect with your punishment. If your 1 frame slow, or even more than that, then your PEWGF won't launch punish, and will only cause block stagger. So it's unreliable unless you're really brave, or just very good at punishing -13 with PEWGF.
As a Lars main and Mishima secondary, I totally agree with this. Lars is the best i14 punisher in the game but because the game don’t register the forward input until late into a block stun, I realistically don’t punish a lot of i14 moves with Blue Bolt (f,b 2,1). You need to practice a lot vs specific strings to know when you can start the punish input, I can only confidently punish Heihachi various -14 moves back in T7 and now his daughter’s roly poly kicks. I cannot realistically punish most -14 even though I know they are because I don’t have enough experience with when to input. It gets worse if it is not a string. With strings, you have time to anticipate. For example, I know Jack’s df2 is -14 but I can never Blue Bolt it.
@@zackong2800 I play Lars and I think blue bolt is doable, it just requires you to know the mu really well. Raven has like 6 -14 moves so I usually know to use it against him for example. On the other hand I don’t think I’ve seen a tournament where someone actually punished a hop kick with a PEWGF 😂
Lee’s acid rain(1333) should be mentioned. Its a i10 punisher that guarantees d,db 4 follow up. It does more damage than all the moves you listed of Lee in the video.
@@Gamingawesomeness121 You would literally need to be PERFECT at punishment to use PEWGF as a i13 punisher. That's why, even though it's possible, it's unreliable.
Assuming we're doing 14f punishing next, I wanna bring something up cause I don't think it's that well known. But Asuka's db1,2 heat dash gives a mini combo of NWG ub1+2, db3. Opponents can't get away from the db3 no matter what they do so its a very good punish on top of her other strong options like uf2 and 3,1
@@sorataoki I’m gonna assume it was left out due to the difficulty of punishing on block with moves with f,f inputs. Same reason EWGFs are not included.
True, but if you don't know, after df1,3 you get a guaranteed ff4 if they don't tech roll (in my experience they never do) which also leaves you in handstand at mid range for more mind games
I feel Nina's db1+2 should be higher than Ling since it's actually i11 and leads to more damage with heat dash. This also needs to be reflected for her i12 punish ranking. Also Nina's highest damage option is b1,4 for 32 dmg.
Xiaoyu's does more damage when she heat dash, its just that they didnt executed storming flower after b+1,4 heat dash, its around 50+ damage, so xia9yu still takes it
@@MaDNeSS1116 tekken content maker he makes very cool and funny stuff if that's string ender at -13 it's possible to land electric although you can't buffer it and elecrtric has pretty long range even perfect
@@RustemKonan you dont have to lecture me on how electric works while it has some range it has 2 active frames and if the opponent is little far away even if you do i13 electric it may hit on 14th frame
@@user-qz7ug7lj7c Its Lee, Acid Rain just is too good 10f 47 dmg, I haven't tested if the new heat dash change affects this but Lee could also do his heat dash SSL HMS u4, ub3 for around 60dmg from a i11/13 heat dash. You have to also mention Kaz, Reina for the potential of i13 launcher too tbf
Paul also doesn’t have i13 or i14 crouch launcher like some other characters. And his i11 crouch punish is lackluster too. Jun, Leo, Hwoarang, Steve and all Mishimas (ws4,4) have much better fast crouch punishment than Paul.
Not the best player but isn't Kazuya's 11f punish really good? It doesn't push the enemy back too far so its automatically 50/50 from there with +9. or is there something I'm missing?
Lee's i13f punish should be number 2 think. Wallsplats, heat engager, give good frames without heat, one of the most damaging i13f due to heat dash, that guarantees hitman f4 into u/b3. It's pretty much a launch combo dmg for some characters
Pauls buffed f2 in my opinion is not clearly the number while he is out of heat. It is still a high so against Kuma for example there are at least 5 -13 moves that you cant even punish with it. Secondly while it is a heat engager it is still a waste because it is not a real +17 Range 0 situation like with other heat engagers. You have no scary mixup to make them block low, so it is only strong if they have very little HP left. If you can connect it in heat and are willing to spend the heat dash you will get around 56 damage or a little less with the option for wall carry. Thats very good and best in game but not by a mile. Cheers!
@@odkgame693 Thats the point. You cant connect a clean Demoman in this situation. The strongest low to use would be b4. Unfortunately against some characters (Kuma again?!) you still cant access the Demoman mixup even after other heat engagers. But after f2 it wont work against the whole cast.
Oh! How about which character has the best unblockable supermove? Like Eddy's Fruit Picker. Determining which one does the most damage & which one needs the fastest reaction to avoid?
sadly it's i14 even if inputted perfectly, it just shows that it's i11 after you unput 2~1 and that takes additional 2 frames which don't count . Basically ewgf is i11 but bc of the input i13 is the fastest you can get, same appllies here
@@seryip Oh, right. Interesting that that's the case even when the move doesn't even have any directional inputs. The frame data display should really show the actual speed of moves as you do them rather than just showing the default frames
Lee has a tool for literally everything. three i10 punishers in standing, two i13 punishers in standing, a wall splat and heat engager i11 punisher, two i14 with one being wall splat. two long range i15 punishes (One being launcher). The only character in the game with a While standing i10 move (Lei Wulong did too but he isn't in T8) that not only forces crouch but has 50 50 extension to snipe out punish attempts if failed. Two "Excellent" WS 13 frame punishers, one of which gives slightly less damage but great frame advantage and puts him in mist step. And finally the WS 2 3 which is an i14 Launcher with heat now. He really is a complete character if used correctly.
Gotta be carefule with Kazuya db1,2. It’s -19 on block so be sure that you blocked a -13 move. Midscreen you should be mostly fine because of the pushback but there are still characters that can launch from that far. At the wall there is no push back
Steves 13f punish is PAB f1+2 which does significantly more damage (35) than the ones shown, knocks down, jails, is safe and wall splats. Should be in the top 10 at the very least. Probably top 5
but bro u forgot the best ones , kazuya and reina have a perferct electric wich is a full combo , for reina i dont know , but for kazuya thats 116 damage with no walls i can get it from time to time but it is very hard tho and for pple that say it is not realy doable , tekken pros in 5 and 5dr would be very consistent at it , but now that kazuya is not high tier anymore since a long time , nobody focus the mishima so we have far less mishima monsters nowadays
Number 1 is obviously kazuya.. if you are a sith Lord and can actually pull off a 13 frame electric punish because it is technically possible. He also has a while standing 13 frame launcher which punishes alot of lows most other characters simply can't achieve so he is objectively undisputed number 1 in this department.
This ranking does not take into consideration the fact that some moves require a 13 framer on a crouching opponent, like Kuma [b+1 > HBS]; this alone is important enough that characters like DJin should be ranked a tad lower than they are.
I think Reina and Xiaoyu should be bumped lower even if they engage in heat. They are very minus on block which the video does not mention. Xiaoyu is launchable from her blocked punisher. Messing up your frames gives the opponent a free heat engaged or launcher. Very high risk high-reward moves. Other people have safe 13f moves that let them take the momentum even if they mess up and get blocked. Xiaoyu, in particular, can also cancel the second hit of her 13f punisher but it doesn't make sense since the first part of the move is also minus on block but not launchable. It is very linear and easily sidesteppable.
nope, b+4 literally has good tracking and better range than in T7, also you gotta realize that b+4,1 is also hit confirmable which mean if you delayed it you can still confirm the 1st hit for a 2nd hit pretty easily. And nobody is punishing you if they block they first hit because of the fear they might get hit by the end hit that heat engages or heat dashes.
@@queencard97yeah but that works in the enemy favor if they block the second hit. Both options on block are highly unsafe. Its really good when it hits but you pay hard if it doesn’t. The fact that Xiaoyu has only 3 decent punishers and this risky one is her best shows how bad her defense game is. I’ve beaten so many Xiaoyus and Reinas throwing out their 13f moves thinking they have frame advantage and even sometimes when they do, they’re a frame too late. The animations are also hella obvious too unlike Hwoarang’s unsafe kicks.
i dont think i need to say this but a Kazuya/Reina if played by someone with absurd reaction time and execution will have the best i13 punish SS+ tier ie: PEWGF
Probably at least worth mentioning reina and kazuya having the possibility to launch at 13, even if impractical
if u ever see a kazuya or reina punish 13 frames with electrics in pro play, sure. will never ever happen though
You have to do it at the exact frame where your hitlag ends good luck💀
Not too much different from doing a 14 frame launch punish tbh! But I've only done it like once lol
@@VSNjaco but it's already happened before lol
@@VSNjacosi , los pros siempre lo usan . Q no sepas es otra cosa
7:24 One thing about Feng's shoulder is that even though it's the longest range, it connects an active frame later, thus making it i14 instead of i13. You can even see it on the clip
4:06 great transition 😊 thanks for this video and your work, really instructive
The reason Kazuya and Reina's PEWGF's aren't included is because while yes...they do theoretically have the best i13 punisher's in the game, but you literally need to be perfect with your punishment. If your 1 frame slow, or even more than that, then your PEWGF won't launch punish, and will only cause block stagger. So it's unreliable unless you're really brave, or just very good at punishing -13 with PEWGF.
it still is a 13f standing launcher that is an option
@@Lexa1.1.2 True, it's just not recommended. Not even pro Kazuya's or Reina's do it in high level.
As a Lars main and Mishima secondary, I totally agree with this. Lars is the best i14 punisher in the game but because the game don’t register the forward input until late into a block stun, I realistically don’t punish a lot of i14 moves with Blue Bolt (f,b 2,1).
You need to practice a lot vs specific strings to know when you can start the punish input, I can only confidently punish Heihachi various -14 moves back in T7 and now his daughter’s roly poly kicks. I cannot realistically punish most -14 even though I know they are because I don’t have enough experience with when to input. It gets worse if it is not a string. With strings, you have time to anticipate. For example, I know Jack’s df2 is -14 but I can never Blue Bolt it.
@@zackong2800 I blue bolt punish quite reliable, as a Lars specialist. Sometimes I don't go for it though just in case the punish is late haha.
@@zackong2800 I play Lars and I think blue bolt is doable, it just requires you to know the mu really well. Raven has like 6 -14 moves so I usually know to use it against him for example.
On the other hand I don’t think I’ve seen a tournament where someone actually punished a hop kick with a PEWGF 😂
Atleast you must add:
1. Claudio 4, 3
2. Claudio 4, 2(starburst)
They have much higher damage.
Great video as always! For the damage tierlist, it would be really cool to have a barchart showing the distribution of the damage numbers
Lee’s acid rain(1333) should be mentioned. Its a i10 punisher that guarantees d,db 4 follow up. It does more damage than all the moves you listed of Lee in the video.
I was about to comment this!
how come a channel named MishimaComplex didnt even mention the possibility of pewgfs
Because they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about
@@Gamingawesomeness121 You would literally need to be PERFECT at punishment to use PEWGF as a i13 punisher. That's why, even though it's possible, it's unreliable.
@@yeeticusxl3318 🤣
@@yeeticusxl3318Could've been an honorable mention....
@@biivii100 i love how people think that is a good reason to exclude it from the video, “it’s too hard” 😅
Assuming we're doing 14f punishing next, I wanna bring something up cause I don't think it's that well known. But Asuka's db1,2 heat dash gives a mini combo of NWG ub1+2, db3. Opponents can't get away from the db3 no matter what they do so its a very good punish on top of her other strong options like uf2 and 3,1
@ 5:06
I think Reina also has a 12f heat engager from her f3,3 move
Yeah, he forgot about ff2 sen 3
@@sorataoki I’m gonna assume it was left out due to the difficulty of punishing on block with moves with f,f inputs. Same reason EWGFs are not included.
Eddy's 2.3 is probably his better i13 punish cause it leaves him on advantage im handstand
True, but if you don't know, after df1,3 you get a guaranteed ff4 if they don't tech roll (in my experience they never do) which also leaves you in handstand at mid range for more mind games
I feel Nina's db1+2 should be higher than Ling since it's actually i11 and leads to more damage with heat dash. This also needs to be reflected for her i12 punish ranking.
Also Nina's highest damage option is b1,4 for 32 dmg.
Just wanted to comment about this. In the video it says i12 but it's i11
Xiaoyu's does more damage when she heat dash, its just that they didnt executed storming flower after b+1,4 heat dash, its around 50+ damage, so xia9yu still takes it
She also b2,2 for slaps ( plus 5 on hit). She should be higher. B+1,4 is very plus on hit.
6:17 for someone who doesn't know paul's combos, all you needed was less scaling extenders and it'd look like a staple lol
Personally I find having an i13 Heat Engager very vital because it means free heat after hopkick block.
@4:38
….Isn’t Nina’s db 1+2 heat engager start frame at 11f?
5:04 can reina perfect electric for a punish at -13, or nah?
Both her and kazuya can do it but its extremely hard and impractical in a real match
@@MaDNeSS1116Friendly Koala does it pretty often
@@RustemKonan ok whoever that is, it is still impractical to go for in a match specially most -13 have some pushbacks and electric tends to miss
@@MaDNeSS1116 tekken content maker he makes very cool and funny stuff
if that's string ender at -13 it's possible to land electric although you can't buffer it and elecrtric has pretty long range even perfect
@@RustemKonan you dont have to lecture me on how electric works while it has some range it has 2 active frames and if the opponent is little far away even if you do i13 electric it may hit on 14th frame
If Paul had a decent 10f punisher, he would arguably have the best punishment in the game.
Shaheen is definitely in there for standing punishment, he has damage and range. Probably Lee too but i don’t know that character well
@@user-qz7ug7lj7c Its Lee, Acid Rain just is too good 10f 47 dmg, I haven't tested if the new heat dash change affects this but Lee could also do his heat dash SSL HMS u4, ub3 for around 60dmg from a i11/13 heat dash.
You have to also mention Kaz, Reina for the potential of i13 launcher too tbf
Paul also doesn’t have i13 or i14 crouch launcher like some other characters. And his i11 crouch punish is lackluster too. Jun, Leo, Hwoarang, Steve and all Mishimas (ws4,4) have much better fast crouch punishment than Paul.
@@etrigan966not possible from heat dash anymore sadly now either blazing kick or ff3
Not the best player but isn't Kazuya's 11f punish really good? It doesn't push the enemy back too far so its automatically 50/50 from there with +9. or is there something I'm missing?
Can't wait till best 14F punishers.
GREAT VIDEO! 💯🔥
I just wondering if reinas ff2 sen 3 would be in here cuz I've gotten it to work as a punish for -13 moves on block
Nina’s 12f damage punish is b14. It looks slow but it’s a 12f hm, and you can do it out of qcb. The other option is 44 which is a NC.
Great work, ty❤
One should also mention alisa's on 3 2. Even if it hit at longer range, it becomes i14. So range issue is even more noticable for 13f punish
Regarding Law's 4,3 DSS, you can follow up with grabs which forces them on a throw mix up, and his DSS 1 and 2 have chip damage.
I cant wait for 14f punisher rankings, xiaoyu will definitely gonna be top 5
i think lee is better than Feng. Because he has the option to go for acid rain for stupid damage.
can you do a tier for who gets the most damage from his heat dash guaranteed follow-up?
Can't wait to see the finale list.
Lee's i13f punish should be number 2 think. Wallsplats, heat engager, give good frames without heat, one of the most damaging i13f due to heat dash, that guarantees hitman f4 into u/b3. It's pretty much a launch combo dmg for some characters
You can no longer do the hitman uf4 ub3 follow up after heat dash, the opponent is now able to tech roll to avoid it
Jin can savage sword after i13 heat engager for more damage
4:42 Nina's punish is i11, not i12
Just wanna add that Leo with execution can do iws4,1+2 for an i13 heat engager
Great analysis! I will start soon to do this kind of stuff on my channel about king mains
Lee player is here, isn't acid rain will be most damaging option for Lee? Or you can heat dash with df44, back dash insta HMS UF4 and UB3?
Heat dash doesn't work anymore
Pauls buffed f2 in my opinion is not clearly the number while he is out of heat.
It is still a high so against Kuma for example there are at least 5 -13 moves that you cant even punish with it.
Secondly while it is a heat engager it is still a waste because it is not a real +17 Range 0 situation like with other heat engagers. You have no scary mixup to make them block low, so it is only strong if they have very little HP left.
If you can connect it in heat and are willing to spend the heat dash you will get around 56 damage or a little less with the option for wall carry. Thats very good and best in game but not by a mile.
Cheers!
Demoman/ safe deathfist is not a scary mixup. Understandable have a great day👍
@@odkgame693 Thats the point. You cant connect a clean Demoman in this situation. The strongest low to use would be b4.
Unfortunately against some characters (Kuma again?!) you still cant access the Demoman mixup even after other heat engagers. But after f2 it wont work against the whole cast.
@@Oolong-Dong wasn't it fixed in last patch?
@@odkgame693nope
Very nice info
Oh! How about which character has the best unblockable supermove? Like Eddy's Fruit Picker. Determining which one does the most damage & which one needs the fastest reaction to avoid?
Why Jin's df1,4 is not mentioned?
you didnt add kaz pewgf 13frame electrics?
For Reina there's another punish but it's 11f 2~1 into EWGK. If you blue spark 2~1 and get the electric wind god kick you get 47 damage guaranteed :)
You can also follow up with d+4:1 for even more damage. I was surprised 2~1 wasn't mentioned in the i12 punishers video either
sadly it's i14 even if inputted perfectly, it just shows that it's i11 after you unput 2~1 and that takes additional 2 frames which don't count . Basically ewgf is i11 but bc of the input i13 is the fastest you can get, same appllies here
@@seryip Oh, right. Interesting that that's the case even when the move doesn't even have any directional inputs. The frame data display should really show the actual speed of moves as you do them rather than just showing the default frames
no electrics?
Sure if you can do it all the time
good luck with that
Good luck doing that lol
Lee can still just use JF acid rain > blazing kick for 47 damage, but I assume you didn't include it because it's 10f punish.
What about jin's df1,4?
Lee has a tool for literally everything. three i10 punishers in standing, two i13 punishers in standing, a wall splat and heat engager i11 punisher, two i14 with one being wall splat. two long range i15 punishes (One being launcher). The only character in the game with a While standing i10 move (Lei Wulong did too but he isn't in T8) that not only forces crouch but has 50 50 extension to snipe out punish attempts if failed. Two "Excellent" WS 13 frame punishers, one of which gives slightly less damage but great frame advantage and puts him in mist step. And finally the WS 2 3 which is an i14 Launcher with heat now.
He really is a complete character if used correctly.
he's punishment is best in the game hands down
Jun can use uf1 for 36dmg it’s 10f
Would you like to make a video on the best wall carry?
Who has the best wall carry? I bet Bryan, Yoshimtsu, Dragunov will be in top 5.
10f Punisher Jacks Heat smash: hold my beer
Gotta be carefule with Kazuya db1,2. It’s -19 on block so be sure that you blocked a -13 move. Midscreen you should be mostly fine because of the pushback but there are still characters that can launch from that far. At the wall there is no push back
viktor also has df32 as a 13f but he is put in IEI
Steves 13f punish is PAB f1+2 which does significantly more damage (35) than the ones shown, knocks down, jails, is safe and wall splats. Should be in the top 10 at the very least. Probably top 5
Isn't Lee's acid rain more damaging?
My brain fucking melting at trying to read, listen to the ai voice, and watch the inputs at the same time.
Did my eyes skip Dragunov or you did not include him in the video?
Jins d/f1 4 no longer a 13 fr punish?
Kazuya df1,4 and follow up stomp or ff4?
Kaz’s DF1 is i15.
funny enough Eddy's b33 is a 13 frame launcher that you should use as a punisher instead df2~4
Not a natural combo btw, b33 only guarantees a launch on counter hit
but bro u forgot the best ones , kazuya and reina have a perferct electric wich is a full combo , for reina i dont know , but for kazuya thats 116 damage with no walls
i can get it from time to time but it is very hard tho
and for pple that say it is not realy doable , tekken pros in 5 and 5dr would be very consistent at it , but now that kazuya is not high tier anymore since a long time , nobody focus the mishima so we have far less mishima monsters nowadays
Day 9 of asking for an anti-Alisa guide
Number 1 is obviously kazuya.. if you are a sith Lord and can actually pull off a 13 frame electric punish because it is technically possible. He also has a while standing 13 frame launcher which punishes alot of lows most other characters simply can't achieve so he is objectively undisputed number 1 in this department.
Kazuya can literally just 1+2 out of most things, it's a 12f followed by a far reaching 15f in quick succession.
Almighty TIO!
What about Lee's 1,3,3,3 just frame?
acid is 42 - 45 damage with oki and no wallsplat.
Nina's heat engager is 11 frames.
No Acid rain?
Lee’s 10 frame acid rain into blazing kick is 41 damage I believe
47
That boi Bryan workn hard got everything 🤣
Bryan can do all that with a i13f punish and yet you put him on 25th place
for lee you probably could have placed his 10frame instead of f1+2, imo, but if u wanted to be within +-1 frames understandable
Hwoarang 43 punish is a solid option also
Average Asuka experience be like
at least we ramp up from i14
If I’m right Yoshi gets free f 1+2 after NSS 2 1 dash in
Men el EWGF de 13 fotogramas tenias que incluir
Where is xiaoyu’s standing 3?
thats i14
@@perkedel7558 wow, always thought it was 13 and i call myself a xiaoyu main. Thanks for correcting!
Jin DF1, 4? or no
That's an 11f heat engager dor nina not 12😊
Sup Asuka's punish :p
Lee's was soo good before the nerf 😢
You forgot Kazuya and Reina PEWGF
What about Paul's death fist? Isn't it 13 frames?
Nan perfect death fist is 15. U need 13 + qcf motion so +3 frames and if u press 2 at same time.
Leaving a comment for your YT analytics 😊
T_T i14! i think Asuka has a good one... (not top tier but good one!)
Leo's 13f also wall splats.
But Dvj has 13f df1, way better than df4,4 with is minus on hit and launch pumishable on block
DVJ’s df1 leads to nothing as a punish lol.
Jin needs a damage buff
King b 1 2 is a launch on counter....bruh
The best punish in the game is a PEWGF but that's inhuman.
Acid rain is still Lee's best -13 punish
Claudio has highest damage with 4,2 with buff
This ranking does not take into consideration the fact that some moves require a 13 framer on a crouching opponent, like Kuma [b+1 > HBS]; this alone is important enough that characters like DJin should be ranked a tad lower than they are.
Best 13f punish is PEWGF
best wr 11 pls
Alisa 2 2 is very fast idk
I think Reina and Xiaoyu should be bumped lower even if they engage in heat. They are very minus on block which the video does not mention. Xiaoyu is launchable from her blocked punisher. Messing up your frames gives the opponent a free heat engaged or launcher. Very high risk high-reward moves. Other people have safe 13f moves that let them take the momentum even if they mess up and get blocked. Xiaoyu, in particular, can also cancel the second hit of her 13f punisher but it doesn't make sense since the first part of the move is also minus on block but not launchable. It is very linear and easily sidesteppable.
nope, b+4 literally has good tracking and better range than in T7, also you gotta realize that b+4,1 is also hit confirmable which mean if you delayed it you can still confirm the 1st hit for a 2nd hit pretty easily. And nobody is punishing you if they block they first hit because of the fear they might get hit by the end hit that heat engages or heat dashes.
@@queencard97yeah but that works in the enemy favor if they block the second hit. Both options on block are highly unsafe. Its really good when it hits but you pay hard if it doesn’t. The fact that Xiaoyu has only 3 decent punishers and this risky one is her best shows how bad her defense game is.
I’ve beaten so many Xiaoyus and Reinas throwing out their 13f moves thinking they have frame advantage and even sometimes when they do, they’re a frame too late. The animations are also hella obvious too unlike Hwoarang’s unsafe kicks.
i dont think i need to say this but a Kazuya/Reina if played by someone with absurd reaction time and execution will have the best i13 punish SS+ tier
ie: PEWGF
humanly impossible in real match. if you Ikari you can punish -14 but -13? delulu
Brother you forgot electric from Reina and Kazuya, obviously the best punishers, if you can execute it in 13 frames just like me.😉
post video of you punishing -13 in real match
great vid! i saved it to my tekken 8 PL. i got a sub out of me. thanx!
My boy Paul got the juice this last patch.