This highlights how much everyone was sandbagging under the old category system to avoid being upgraded. Great to see everyone really trying and remember that half the riders have to finish at the back in any race or category 👍
My power and w/kg numbers match yours. I used to be very competitive in Cat C, I'd win a few races. Now I'm a mid pack rider hanging on for dear life. I'm not too bothered, I used to do Cat B races a lot in the past for a challenge.
I started Zwift 12/23 , started racing 4/24 at 1st was easy to understand . And being 67yrs old and being a triathlete since 1985 , I knew had to get my cycling game in better shape . But now I do not question fitness , 11,000 miles level 87 , TRON bike in 48 days . My racing scores was like predicting the weather . Went from C to D back to C , racing segment went from 1145 to 401 . Racing score 421 up to 531 . I have grown tired of thinking about all of it. Back to riding courses I started at the beginning of the year and PR them .
I don't understand the system. I'm a short and skinny guy. My ftp is 220W or 3.4W/kg. C was the sweetspot for being competitve despite struggling on flat courses, but i ended up getting bumped to B. Then ZRS was introduced and it jumped from 420 to 380 to 357 as a result of the updates. In other words, my profile still shows B, but i am only a few points away from the lowest ZRS category. And guess what? The 350-520 races are way harder than the old C races, feel more like B. I still love racing, but none of this makes any sense to me at this point.
Dudes averaging 3.8-4.0+w/kg is not C category ffs. True C guys like me are just getting blasted and losing motivation to do any ZRS racing. Might be just category enforced races for me until they get this crap worked out.
After introduction of ZRS riding races became much less fun. With CE I always managed to stay in the front group (most times without enough energy left to sprint) and with ZRS I'm always dropped and finishing in nowhere land. Today for example I did a race where more than half of the Top 20 finished the just over 30min race between 3.9 and 4.1 w/kg. For comparison my own current 20min power is 3.36w/kg (326W), so after 15min in the race i was dropped. I would expect my ZRS dropping after this race but it stayed the same.
This feels like Zwift don’t really know what they are doing. I’m totally in favour of change but every iteration seems to create more issues. Think that 5 minute power is a good starting metric but it should be used with one minute and probably 20 minute too. A scoring system with the old cat system would work better than what we have now. I’m bouncing between C and D now- score is 351 so I get destroyed in a C race, downgraded to D then place well in D and get upgraded again. It’s pretty frustrating….
@@AndrewBrown-em3ti I agree that more data points can lead to bigger accuracy but there's still going to be issues since there are different phenotypes of riders and more types of courses. If I will race only flat courses, I imagine I can get to A cat pretty quickly. But of I'll eace only Alpe du Zwift, I'll fall even deeper in C. How they should take this into account? I don't know. Maybe more data points is the way.
Solid ride…gj 💪 On this stage I have seen differences as little as 12sec betweeen “B” and “C”. Old C aswell. So hard to hang on. Even on flats in the end where the breakaways starts. On climbs you need to push 5-6w/kg now on avg. Been in races with cat A’s after ZRS v3 and guess what…they won. Really demotivating with this new system atm. The gap within the races have become way too big
@ exactly. The smallest inclines I now get smashed. I could just hang on before. And the third category (or what we should call it), feels more like a group ride with so many different levels. Just look through various results on Zwiftpower. Such a big spread. Some of my friends, who are way better than I, have lower scores. To me ZRS just not makes logical sence atm if they wanted the races to be closer.
Most of you guys are complaining it's harder now, but what this really means is that you've lost the advantage (typically power due to being larger) you enjoyed in the old system. Mathematically, it cannot be harder for most. Just as before, 50% of the riders will finish in the top half, and the other 50% in the bottom half - no change. The new system is far superior to the old one because it's more fair. Let's look at two riders, one is 50kg with an FTP of 180W, while the other is 100kg with an FTP of 360W. Both produce the same 3.6 W/kg, which places them smack in the middle of the old cat B. Up a steep climb, where air resistance is not a factor, they are about equal, but everywhere else - flats, downhills and sprints - the larger rider will smoke the small one. Actually, the lighter rider will be disadvantaged on the climbs, as well, because he'll have to burn more matches just to get to the climb, while the heavier one will arrive more "fresh". In the old system, the larger rider would typically finishing on the podium, while the smaller one near the bottom. Now, the strong guy might be bumped to 690-1000, the small one downgraded to 350-520, while the (3.6 w/kg) average weight guy will remain in the 520-690. RESULT: The large guy, having to work harder for a podium finish, won't be so smug any more. The small guy, not finishing last any more, won't be crying himself to sleep. And the average guy won't lose or gain much. BRAVO ZWIFT!
Thank you for your perspective! I was previously racing in B, so I don't know if I would classify my situation as "losing the advantage".;) I disagree with one thing though - you said that the change was basically a zero sum game. That would be true if there was a fixed amount of spots in every category, or if there were dynamic pens. That's not the case, however. I was not trying to say that I think it's completely bad, only that for a "true" C rider, it has to be hell now (because I am top half B according to the old system and it was difficult for me, too).
A 100kg rider holding 360w is a much better cyclist than a 50kg holding 180w. So the 100kg rider should win. What we see in practice is that lighter riders are much better climbers than heavier ones, because it’s so hard for heavy riders to reach the same w/kg as lighter ones.
I keep getting bumped to 520-690 even when I'm finishing middle of the pack in sub 520. then I come last for a couple of races because Im not strong enough to race those guys, finish mid pack again and the get bumped and the cycle continues. I'm racing people with cat A power in the 520 -690 group and Im mid cat C at best. Not sure how that fair.
Brutal course! Im sure it felt nice to be racing again, however 😊 Im a bit worried about how long it'll take for the categories to balance out since podium placement results in what, ~10 points? So close to 15 races to jump a full category? Part of me thinks that we just like to complain because nobody likes being pushed to their limits, but this is looking like a TRUE grind to A 😅
It was fantastic to race again! My complaint now is more on behalf of the previous C riders than myself. You could see how quickly the split formed. That's rough.
I was in this race too. I could only hold the front group for the first 5kms. I’m glad you said it was hard because I thought the exact same. 😂 My racing score is 379 and I finished 2 minutes down on the winner.
I have to say as a C rider, I haven't raced a lot with ZRS yet as I have been focusing on ZRL recently. But looking at your numbers for this race (I understand you are sick) they are what you would expect for a top 10 of any C race honestly. For me personally its good to have this cross over between high Cs and low/mid B riders, its more of a gradual transition as apposed to going from C cat to suddenly having to race top B riders in the B cat. You can't expect to be on the pointy end of every race you enter and the competition should serve as motivation to become stronger still.
@@SCggoode My result/stats are really put of scope of this comparison, I drafted pretty well and conserved energy whenever possible, which considerably lowered my numbers. The leaders however had 3.7-4.0 wkg and that is simply not something guy with ZRS of 350 even remotely can compete with. Not talking about winning, just competing.
I like the idea of a gradual merging of the categories but if more than half the field get dropped in the first 2km then its obviously too hard for most and becomes a group ride. I’m a mid C rider (or at least thats what I thought) I did this race and averaged 3.0w/kg and was around 3 minutes behind the leaders I’ll be in D cat soon and will be able to compete. I feel bad for the “true” D riders they’ve got nowhere to go
If you want to reach A you will need to train to be able to spend more time in Zone 6 and 7. Like I told you, this means thinking more about 'creating power' than 'cycling'. I rode the ZEAL Japan A race on Friday, which is always a crazy fast race. I averaged 4.5, but i was almost never riding at 4.5. Instead I actually spent 28% of the race in Zone 6, 18% in Zone 7 and 26% in Zone 1. Being able to repeat frequent and short anaeroboic efforts and recover in between is the key to (flat) Zwift racing, in my opinion. With climbs, it's your Zone 5 / Vo2 power. To make the necessary improvements, 1-2x a week you need to be training your 5m/1m/30s/15s power. Intervals like 3m Z5 then 30s Z6 and great for Zwift racing. Also mix some 10-20s sprints into your endurance training. Honestly, if you can ride 5x per week, do 1 race, 1 hard interval training, 1 easy ride and 1 endurance ride with a few sprints (say 1000w for 5 seconds every 20 mins). I guarantee this will get you more success than racing 2-3x per week. I know this because I did the same - I loved racing and thought if I race lots and push myself really hard, I'll improve, but actually this doesn't happen. Train harder to race easier needs to be the mantra. Last tip, the Zwift Hub under reports power abpve 300w when it has gotten hot. I know you tested against your Assiomos, but try the test again when the trainer is warm after you've been riding hard for 30 mins. It's about 8% under.
Yup, I still have your advice in mind! And I already actually started training to those principles, but the illness set me back pretty good. As for the Zwift Hub, I tested against the Assiomas even when it's hot, it seems fine for me.
Wait for the new PEN Ranges that should be changed in January...and you all need to forget about A, B, C, D. Yes there are some comparison but PEN E is new D, PEN D is mostly C's and strong heavy D's, PEN C is now Strong C's and Low to mid B's, etc. Maybe in next video you can talk about Floor that is 15% under your SEED and this is why some races have stronger riders that manipulate there ZRS to enter lower PEN.
Did you ride many flat races with sprints, or never a 20min effort? Your ZwiftPower numbers look fair for C to me. A previous RS of 570 is quite impressive with a 20min power of 3.5w/kg ;)
I didn't race for a month now due to Covid and surely detrained. Also, I am not complaining at all that I am in C (in fact, I probably won't be for long anymore as this race already bumped me to 516). My point is that as the C group is the most populated one, many guys over there now don't stand a chance to compete (to compete, not to win!).
Good effort especially for a return to racing. I tried racing this course in B (got bumped up due to a 5 min all out test from September) yesterday and got demolished. This looks like the cat I belong in, although I agree it's too hard for pre-ZRS Cs. Most of the front group from your race should be in B with me, and most of the front group from my race should be in A.
It should feel hard compared to pre-ZRS C cat, because since there are 5 cats now, the overall level is higher in each cat. However, does it feel harder compared to ZRS v1 now?
I agree. The main problem here is not the new categories or seeds or scores, but the amount of people expecting to do well bc they always did well under the old ABCD system. They are now finding out that ZRS is a totally different beast. This is better than the old one, but if you are expecting a nice C race and you get smashed around like a cheap tennis ball race after race by lower seeded but higher powered riders then I expect the amount of interest in racing zwift will dwindle. It's no fun getting dropped :) Also A cat, where I am in is expected to ride 5.5 w/k to be competative in the AHDR The Chop races :)
@@RideWithGerben Yea, exactly my point! The expectation of the community to be podium competitive in every race is often quite ridiculous, but I can imagine that getting smashed as a 350 rated rider by guys who are doing 4 wkg is no theme park ride either.
I was a top 30% C cat, currently I'm a top 20% D cat with a RS 318. I think the rankings have shifted. I do like how riders are now immediately pushed out of category with a good result.. In January the categories are meant to be changing too. There maybe more narrower groups-but who knows 🤣🤣
This is the division I first got put in and now I am in the 180-350 category and that suits me fine I was 3-4 mins behind the winners every single race wasn't fun at all.
Finally got to do a race with you mate, after following your channel since the beginning 🙂 I got upgraded to old B cat in March this year but with ZRS I have “jumped” around in the new categories! I was first given a ZRS of 630, then dropped to mid 500, then some small jumps up again and finally in V3 I got dropped to 419. After a couple of races I’m now at 454. I must say don’t think I belong in “cat B” even though I managed to get 6th place today😉 I was actually surprised that I managed to beat riders with higher ZRS than me! Maybe the solution is to adjust the cutoff between categories and/or have more categories!?
@ Thanks 😊 Like you I’m using Xert to prepare for a a multi day ultra gravel race in May next year and the program doesn’t give much room for doing races within the structured training, but I’ll sign up for the occasional race now and then 🙂
@ you just add warmup/cooldown. Usually the race takes care of high/peak stress easily anyway. Btw., if you have a Garmin cycling computer, you can download XSS buckets and track stress progression across multiple activities.
Seems hard to judge results-based categories so early on, as the worst outcomes (runaway winners and no-chance losers) should filter out of a given category after a while. I also don't feel there's any inherent "C" category. It may be that a lot of formerly C cat riders move into the D category and succeed there. Or big guys with better sprint than FTP who used to dominate C (I've been in this category) go from dominating to surviving, now that there are better FTPs at the front of the race. In short, my thoughts, though still evolving: 1) Results-based scores with power floors is an excellent concept for Zwift racing. ZMap/ZFTP alone, though improved from the bad old FTP-only days, still doesn't adequately account for racing prowess. 2) There is no way to develop a category-based system without a situation where some riders struggle in most races and others are near the front (i.e., the top and bottom of the given category). Similarly, there is no way to develop a category-based system where a rider of a certain profile (say, strong FTP with little punch) will be comparably successful across different course types. It would make sense that that person does better climbing straight uphill rather than on a punchy course or flat with a sprint finish. 3) I'm okay with evolving meanings of what is "B" or "C." I'm almost exactly like you in having been shunted around between B and C. And I think we have similar power profiles. My ideal is that each category have reliably consistent and adequate levels of participation. I like the idea of dynamic categories to ensure that each given race can offer that experience. Downside would of course be lack of predictability as to what category you're in and who you're racing, but you can still get a look at the start list before you start. 4) I'd want to see a given version of ZRS in place and sort out the system kinks and rider outliers before ZRS is implemented in a league series like ZRL. There, it's much more important to have consistency and ability to plan for who your competition is. Appreciate your videos and commentary as always!
Excellent point of view, thank you! I agree with all your points (I was saying those things previously too). I am now specifically concerned about the bottom half of current C category, as the C category is the largest and thus probably has the biggest skill gap. You could see in this race how quickly the gap split at the front. What was it - like two minutes? That's insane.
So as a c rider in old system still being used for Zwift racing league I run bottom of the rope third of racers. So out of 60 would be around 20th. With the change my points dropped so now I am a D rider again. Which is fine for me but me from 4 months when I was a D rider wouldn’t stand a chance against me today. My ftp is up 45 watts and my weight is down 14 pounds. There is a really easy way to solve this if they want to create more competitive races just have everyone join one category and then have the system split you into categories based off the riders that join. So create a lobby like system you join then at start time of race it stops new people joining and categorizes riders there for a race and then puts you on start line
The 180-350 bandwidth has old D, C & B racers. I raced stage 4 primetime ( Monday 17.10 GMT) , 156 racers. 3 B's in the top 5 and their scores are still below 350. Average power for top 5 was 3.5wkg highest was 3.8wkg. 1st D rider was 42nd (2.7wkg) and I was 3rd D rider in 44th (2.5wkg). There is no incentive to race ZRS. The lower bandwidths are just ripped to bits by riders capable of producing big w/kg for 20 mins. There shouldn't be B's and D's in the same category.
I would say if those riders are outliers (like there are two or three in the race), it should fix with time - they will go up eventually. The problem I see is when there's 20 such guys.
@RoadtoA I really hope it will get better but I don't see how. I believe ZRS is the way forward but the way Zwift has scored everyone is wrong. How can a B and a D have the same ZRS? Look at the average power of the top 3 in each bandwidth. 0-180 2.4, 2.7, 2.8 cat C power. 180-350 3.8, 3.2, 3.5 cat B power. 350-520 3.6, 3.6, 3.8 cat B power. 520-690 3.9, 4.4, 4.1 cat A power. 690-1000 4.7, 4.5, 4.8 cat A power. This isn't going to get better because zwift is giving low score to riders with no 90 day data. This will happen every year.
@ two things here: 1) they can (and will in January) redo the category ranges. Hopefully that will help even out the categories. 2) they said that of rider doesn't have sufficient data in the 90 day period, they will look into their 1 year data so hopefully it shouldn't happen every year
Need to stop thinking about ABCD etc I can imagine they will add more fine grained categories later. As you say you detrained. This will make it feel much harder . It definitely did not look like a 520-690 race IMO. Enjoy your videos . Keep it up !
I got bumped down to cat D with latest ZRS, now I’m a decent Cat C so it’s a similar scenario for true Cat D’s. I think zwift need to create more categories so there’s less of a gulf between riders. Another race and I’ll be in your category and it will be putter misery racing, not fun people will stop racing
you are forgetting one thing in the analysis: a lot of half to lower tier C riders have been thrown into D now (im one of those). so overall the change does not matter a real lot. It got harder for some, it got easier for some others...
Already did! It's great but I didn't feel it particularly improved my quality of life in game and it slowed my framerates when I was streaming/recording.
@@RoadtoA Okay thanks for the answer 😊 I didn't find that video. I think it can be interesting to see the group positions, actual watts of others and drafting effect, but if it lowers your framerate, that's not ideal indeed. I will try it on my side to see how it does
Can't really make my mind up at the minute. I was 492 before the change, and I dropped down to 438 (I think). I feel like I'll be stuck there now as I race, and it goes up a little and then race with higher w/kg but goes down. Not sure there's anywhere to go at 89kg other than in the same place. I'm just racing as a good work out now.
@@paulnetherwood224 I don't feel it is necessary to top 10 all the time. But I can imagine this is pretty frustrating for the C riders. I mean there was a break of the B guys right at the first Sgurr Summit.
I’m a D rider . When the ZRS came out it put me at 252. I’ve since gone down to 201. Previously in Cat D I was able to come top 5 with a sprint at the end. But now I’m struggling to stay with the pack and I get dropped and I’m coming in with the last quarter . I’m still doing 2.3w/kg for the duration and 2.4w/kg for the first 20 minutes. But it’s just not enough and I do feel demoralised. Where it was fun before , I feel that half of what was Cat C are now in my races . I’m busted by the end and can’t sprint and I’m fighting for 28th place . I hope the score eventually puts people into the correct bands or they create narrower bands so we can all be competitive with people of a similar fitness . Ok my power isn’t amazing but it used to be fun
@ in Cat D if you could hold 2.5w/kg for a few weeks you were promoted to Cat C , but now I come 20th and there are people averaging 3.7w/kg , going but the numbers at end of the race . It’s no longer fair
I have the exact same problems or experience with the new racing score as I did with the w/kg cat. I start the season in a category and after some weeks I upgrade to a higher cat and I do not stand a chance, not only in the beginning, but still 6 weeks after the upgrade, there is no emprovement on my result, I mean my FTP has gotten better, but my race result is pretty much the same or actually worse. If the had kept the old w/kg cat and extended it into 5 groups instead of 4, it would have been the same as the new racing score cat. Maybe it has potential, I do not know, but certainly hope so.
I had a rating of 620 and now I’m like 508 or some shit….the race i did yesterday was no joke in the same cat as you….looking at the next cat (B or 2) race, holy smokes, I’d be crushed
i have the same right now. I was midd B. now i am at 508 points. I can lead the group... And finish in the top 5 % riding avg. 4.0 W/kg. C cat. is mixed with a lot of diff. lvls....
wont that be sorted out by itself? people winning will move up and the bottom half will slowly go to cat D? I think it needs some time to adjust. Original sorting might have been a bit off though
this looks crazy. It feels a bit like Zwift is changing ZRS and changing ZRS and changing ZRS, but for what? One problem is solved, and two new problems emerge...
@@GeorgAndTheBike I hope this will get sorted out by new category ranges. I feel that if you mDe the C cutoff at like 480-490 ZRSs it would be perfect for Cs. The same for B and let the A being a little bigger.
@@RoadtoA I am not too optimistic, because Zwift has every relevant data point of millions of users over the years. So if you have all the data you need, it's at the end the question of whether you are able to build a model that does what it should do or not. Zwift has been working on the ZRS for over a year now and it feels like they have no real clue how to achieve the goal of more even racing fields. So they keep changing and changing and hoping for the best. Just imagine someone would do that on the financial markets, they would be bankrupt by now... I really hope Zwift proves me wrong, but I don't see how
@@RoadtoA I think thats the problem is the range in the cats are too large. I dont know how you fix it though and still have enough people in each cat to have decent races, especially come springtime when there will be fewer people around.
@ The problem is once they optimize for one kind of race, it is going to be off for another one. I don't even know what I would do now and I work with numbers for living. Maybe less races and more categories would be the solution?
Similar situation to you now, a ZRS of 507, hoping to hold on in the tougher races and push myself into the second category and avoid yo-yoing from that point on :D Do you think that there is possibility that scoring get recalculated at the conclusion of the Baseline series?
@@__-fu2dn Not the full score but the Baseline will give them data to seed riders better. Also they promised a change of the category of ranges in January.
What wheels do you recommend? Zwifter Bikes shows DT Swiss ARC 1100 Dicut Disc but I don't see anyone riding on the solid disc wheel. Seems like it would be heavy up the climbs. BTW I'm CAT C and really struggling with new scoring and cannot pace anywhere near as fast as you went. Congrats!
I used to be rated at 440 but have been downgraded to 370. I thought my nxt race at the lower score would be "easier".Hell no! I did a Zwift Insider Saturday morning(GMT) 4 mini race series.Out of 52 came 48,46,42 and 41. Which shows a progression on the positive side but I was absolutely hanging....I couldn't have squeezed one more ounce of effort out of my tried little torso. So not sure how I feel abt this new rating system. Maybe the old system was to "easy" and this is the true level you need to be at to improve?
You have also not race for a month and it is also shown in quickly rise in HR with short effort compared to your level before. Im sure with more training and races you will get back to previous shape. It will take time. Your avg power also lower but it will be better as well when getting back to shape. Im not Zwift racer but enjoy your content. Judge on the winners w/kg they dont belong there also because they probably created that crazy start of the race
Yea sure, my current form influenced my impression, that's for sure. That said, I knew it did, and I tried to detach from it when evaluating the results.
all the groups are harder now, i've not done much in recent years and back training again now, racing d cat and my numbers are similar to when i could win races most of the time, now everything's more intense and a struggle to get near the top. to me d seems mid c level. i did the same race as you today but d cat and we're the same weight, the average power was about the same and i just sat in the front group the entire time. bring back the old groups lol
Thank you for feeling sorry for me. I am a true c rider with a score of 380. I will never be in a chance to compete for evan a top 10. I am lucky to be in top third. Been like that for a couple of years. Never mind. Just try to enjoy it anyway.
This highlights how much everyone was sandbagging under the old category system to avoid being upgraded. Great to see everyone really trying and remember that half the riders have to finish at the back in any race or category 👍
Yup.
My power and w/kg numbers match yours. I used to be very competitive in Cat C, I'd win a few races. Now I'm a mid pack rider hanging on for dear life. I'm not too bothered, I used to do Cat B races a lot in the past for a challenge.
I started Zwift 12/23 , started racing 4/24 at 1st was easy to understand . And being 67yrs old and being a triathlete since 1985 , I knew had to get my cycling game in better shape . But now I do not question fitness , 11,000 miles level 87 , TRON bike in 48 days . My racing scores was like predicting the weather . Went from C to D back to C , racing segment went from 1145 to 401 . Racing score 421 up to 531 . I have grown tired of thinking about all of it. Back to riding courses I started at the beginning of the year and PR them .
I don't understand the system. I'm a short and skinny guy. My ftp is 220W or 3.4W/kg. C was the sweetspot for being competitve despite struggling on flat courses, but i ended up getting bumped to B. Then ZRS was introduced and it jumped from 420 to 380 to 357 as a result of the updates. In other words, my profile still shows B, but i am only a few points away from the lowest ZRS category. And guess what? The 350-520 races are way harder than the old C races, feel more like B. I still love racing, but none of this makes any sense to me at this point.
Dudes averaging 3.8-4.0+w/kg is not C category ffs. True C guys like me are just getting blasted and losing motivation to do any ZRS racing. Might be just category enforced races for me until they get this crap worked out.
@@aquicktake yep, that was exactly my point. The skill range in the third group is insane now.
After introduction of ZRS riding races became much less fun. With CE I always managed to stay in the front group (most times without enough energy left to sprint) and with ZRS I'm always dropped and finishing in nowhere land. Today for example I did a race where more than half of the Top 20 finished the just over 30min race between 3.9 and 4.1 w/kg. For comparison my own current 20min power is 3.36w/kg (326W), so after 15min in the race i was dropped. I would expect my ZRS dropping after this race but it stayed the same.
same here! totally agree.
Same here in CAT B…
Racing was fun until the RS came out. ☹️
This feels like Zwift don’t really know what they are doing. I’m totally in favour of change but every iteration seems to create more issues. Think that 5 minute power is a good starting metric but it should be used with one minute and probably 20 minute too. A scoring system with the old cat system would work better than what we have now. I’m bouncing between C and D now- score is 351 so I get destroyed in a C race, downgraded to D then place well in D and get upgraded again. It’s pretty frustrating….
@@AndrewBrown-em3ti I agree that more data points can lead to bigger accuracy but there's still going to be issues since there are different phenotypes of riders and more types of courses. If I will race only flat courses, I imagine I can get to A cat pretty quickly. But of I'll eace only Alpe du Zwift, I'll fall even deeper in C.
How they should take this into account? I don't know. Maybe more data points is the way.
Solid ride…gj 💪
On this stage I have seen differences as little as 12sec betweeen “B” and “C”.
Old C aswell. So hard to hang on. Even on flats in the end where the breakaways starts. On climbs you need to push 5-6w/kg now on avg. Been in races with cat A’s after ZRS v3 and guess what…they won. Really demotivating with this new system atm. The gap within the races have become way too big
@@thomaslianee7494 The climbs didn't really feel different to B racing tbh.
@ exactly. The smallest inclines I now get smashed. I could just hang on before.
And the third category (or what we should call it), feels more like a group ride with so many different levels. Just look through various results on Zwiftpower. Such a big spread.
Some of my friends, who are way better than I, have lower scores. To me ZRS just not makes logical sence atm if they wanted the races to be closer.
Most of you guys are complaining it's harder now, but what this really means is that you've lost the advantage (typically power due to being larger) you enjoyed in the old system. Mathematically, it cannot be harder for most. Just as before, 50% of the riders will finish in the top half, and the other 50% in the bottom half - no change.
The new system is far superior to the old one because it's more fair. Let's look at two riders, one is 50kg with an FTP of 180W, while the other is 100kg with an FTP of 360W. Both produce the same 3.6 W/kg, which places them smack in the middle of the old cat B. Up a steep climb, where air resistance is not a factor, they are about equal, but everywhere else - flats, downhills and sprints - the larger rider will smoke the small one. Actually, the lighter rider will be disadvantaged on the climbs, as well, because he'll have to burn more matches just to get to the climb, while the heavier one will arrive more "fresh".
In the old system, the larger rider would typically finishing on the podium, while the smaller one near the bottom. Now, the strong guy might be bumped to 690-1000, the small one downgraded to 350-520, while the (3.6 w/kg) average weight guy will remain in the 520-690.
RESULT: The large guy, having to work harder for a podium finish, won't be so smug any more. The small guy, not finishing last any more, won't be crying himself to sleep. And the average guy won't lose or gain much. BRAVO ZWIFT!
Thank you for your perspective! I was previously racing in B, so I don't know if I would classify my situation as "losing the advantage".;)
I disagree with one thing though - you said that the change was basically a zero sum game. That would be true if there was a fixed amount of spots in every category, or if there were dynamic pens. That's not the case, however.
I was not trying to say that I think it's completely bad, only that for a "true" C rider, it has to be hell now (because I am top half B according to the old system and it was difficult for me, too).
A 100kg rider holding 360w is a much better cyclist than a 50kg holding 180w. So the 100kg rider should win. What we see in practice is that lighter riders are much better climbers than heavier ones, because it’s so hard for heavy riders to reach the same w/kg as lighter ones.
I keep getting bumped to 520-690 even when I'm finishing middle of the pack in sub 520. then I come last for a couple of races because Im not strong enough to race those guys, finish mid pack again and the get bumped and the cycle continues. I'm racing people with cat A power in the 520 -690 group and Im mid cat C at best. Not sure how that fair.
Brutal course! Im sure it felt nice to be racing again, however 😊
Im a bit worried about how long it'll take for the categories to balance out since podium placement results in what, ~10 points? So close to 15 races to jump a full category?
Part of me thinks that we just like to complain because nobody likes being pushed to their limits, but this is looking like a TRUE grind to A 😅
It was fantastic to race again!
My complaint now is more on behalf of the previous C riders than myself. You could see how quickly the split formed. That's rough.
I was in this race too.
I could only hold the front group for the first 5kms.
I’m glad you said it was hard because I thought the exact same. 😂
My racing score is 379 and I finished 2 minutes down on the winner.
🤜🤛
I have to say as a C rider, I haven't raced a lot with ZRS yet as I have been focusing on ZRL recently. But looking at your numbers for this race (I understand you are sick) they are what you would expect for a top 10 of any C race honestly. For me personally its good to have this cross over between high Cs and low/mid B riders, its more of a gradual transition as apposed to going from C cat to suddenly having to race top B riders in the B cat. You can't expect to be on the pointy end of every race you enter and the competition should serve as motivation to become stronger still.
@@SCggoode My result/stats are really put of scope of this comparison, I drafted pretty well and conserved energy whenever possible, which considerably lowered my numbers.
The leaders however had 3.7-4.0 wkg and that is simply not something guy with ZRS of 350 even remotely can compete with. Not talking about winning, just competing.
I like the idea of a gradual merging of the categories but if more than half the field get dropped in the first 2km then its obviously too hard for most and becomes a group ride. I’m a mid C rider (or at least thats what I thought) I did this race and averaged 3.0w/kg and was around 3 minutes behind the leaders I’ll be in D cat soon and will be able to compete. I feel bad for the “true” D riders they’ve got nowhere to go
@ Exactly my point. The field split extremely quickly (granted, there was a climb, but still, people were fresh).
If you want to reach A you will need to train to be able to spend more time in Zone 6 and 7.
Like I told you, this means thinking more about 'creating power' than 'cycling'.
I rode the ZEAL Japan A race on Friday, which is always a crazy fast race. I averaged 4.5, but i was almost never riding at 4.5. Instead I actually spent 28% of the race in Zone 6, 18% in Zone 7 and 26% in Zone 1.
Being able to repeat frequent and short anaeroboic efforts and recover in between is the key to (flat) Zwift racing, in my opinion.
With climbs, it's your Zone 5 / Vo2 power.
To make the necessary improvements, 1-2x a week you need to be training your 5m/1m/30s/15s power.
Intervals like 3m Z5 then 30s Z6 and great for Zwift racing.
Also mix some 10-20s sprints into your endurance training.
Honestly, if you can ride 5x per week, do 1 race, 1 hard interval training, 1 easy ride and 1 endurance ride with a few sprints (say 1000w for 5 seconds every 20 mins). I guarantee this will get you more success than racing 2-3x per week. I know this because I did the same - I loved racing and thought if I race lots and push myself really hard, I'll improve, but actually this doesn't happen. Train harder to race easier needs to be the mantra.
Last tip, the Zwift Hub under reports power abpve 300w when it has gotten hot. I know you tested against your Assiomos, but try the test again when the trainer is warm after you've been riding hard for 30 mins. It's about 8% under.
Yup, I still have your advice in mind! And I already actually started training to those principles, but the illness set me back pretty good.
As for the Zwift Hub, I tested against the Assiomas even when it's hot, it seems fine for me.
Wait for the new PEN Ranges that should be changed in January...and you all need to forget about A, B, C, D. Yes there are some comparison but PEN E is new D, PEN D is mostly C's and strong heavy D's, PEN C is now Strong C's and Low to mid B's, etc.
Maybe in next video you can talk about Floor that is 15% under your SEED and this is why some races have stronger riders that manipulate there ZRS to enter lower PEN.
I think the floor is necessary though. Otherwise if you detrained (or seeded wrongly) you'd be stuck in higher pen.
Did you ride many flat races with sprints, or never a 20min effort? Your ZwiftPower numbers look fair for C to me.
A previous RS of 570 is quite impressive with a 20min power of 3.5w/kg ;)
I didn't race for a month now due to Covid and surely detrained.
Also, I am not complaining at all that I am in C (in fact, I probably won't be for long anymore as this race already bumped me to 516).
My point is that as the C group is the most populated one, many guys over there now don't stand a chance to compete (to compete, not to win!).
Good effort especially for a return to racing.
I tried racing this course in B (got bumped up due to a 5 min all out test from September) yesterday and got demolished.
This looks like the cat I belong in, although I agree it's too hard for pre-ZRS Cs. Most of the front group from your race should be in B with me, and most of the front group from my race should be in A.
It should feel hard compared to pre-ZRS C cat, because since there are 5 cats now, the overall level is higher in each cat. However, does it feel harder compared to ZRS v1 now?
@@RoadtoA Definitely, since Zwift thought I belonged in D in v1 😂
I agree. The main problem here is not the new categories or seeds or scores, but the amount of people expecting to do well bc they always did well under the old ABCD system. They are now finding out that ZRS is a totally different beast. This is better than the old one, but if you are expecting a nice C race and you get smashed around like a cheap tennis ball race after race by lower seeded but higher powered riders then I expect the amount of interest in racing zwift will dwindle. It's no fun getting dropped :) Also A cat, where I am in is expected to ride 5.5 w/k to be competative in the AHDR The Chop races :)
@@RideWithGerben Yea, exactly my point! The expectation of the community to be podium competitive in every race is often quite ridiculous, but I can imagine that getting smashed as a 350 rated rider by guys who are doing 4 wkg is no theme park ride either.
I was a top 30% C cat, currently I'm a top 20% D cat with a RS 318. I think the rankings have shifted. I do like how riders are now immediately pushed out of category with a good result.. In January the categories are meant to be changing too. There maybe more narrower groups-but who knows 🤣🤣
Thanks for sharing! So basically what you think is the overall level of the riders in terms of ranking shifted down?
Yes I'm a proper C and I say again it's a fucking shambles🤷♂
@@MrLootshoot Yeah, I can imagine.
This is the division I first got put in and now I am in the 180-350 category and that suits me fine I was 3-4 mins behind the winners every single race wasn't fun at all.
@@talonlan I can see that. This felt harder than many of my B races.
Finally got to do a race with you mate, after following your channel since the beginning 🙂 I got upgraded to old B cat in March this year but with ZRS I have “jumped” around in the new categories! I was first given a ZRS of 630, then dropped to mid 500, then some small jumps up again and finally in V3 I got dropped to 419. After a couple of races I’m now at 454. I must say don’t think I belong in “cat B” even though I managed to get 6th place today😉 I was actually surprised that I managed to beat riders with higher ZRS than me! Maybe the solution is to adjust the cutoff between categories and/or have more categories!?
@@VeloViking Well done mate, good to be racing you!
Yeah, I'd say less racing times/more categories could help the situation.
@ Thanks 😊 Like you I’m using Xert to prepare for a a multi day ultra gravel race in May next year and the program doesn’t give much room for doing races within the structured training, but I’ll sign up for the occasional race now and then 🙂
@@VeloViking I usually just ignore the hard day and do race instead. The good thing is it recaulculates based on that anyway.
@ I will do that too, but I find that the hard sessions in Xert have a longer duration than most races, so I will have to adjust for that 🙂
@ you just add warmup/cooldown. Usually the race takes care of high/peak stress easily anyway.
Btw., if you have a Garmin cycling computer, you can download XSS buckets and track stress progression across multiple activities.
Seems hard to judge results-based categories so early on, as the worst outcomes (runaway winners and no-chance losers) should filter out of a given category after a while. I also don't feel there's any inherent "C" category. It may be that a lot of formerly C cat riders move into the D category and succeed there. Or big guys with better sprint than FTP who used to dominate C (I've been in this category) go from dominating to surviving, now that there are better FTPs at the front of the race.
In short, my thoughts, though still evolving:
1) Results-based scores with power floors is an excellent concept for Zwift racing. ZMap/ZFTP alone, though improved from the bad old FTP-only days, still doesn't adequately account for racing prowess.
2) There is no way to develop a category-based system without a situation where some riders struggle in most races and others are near the front (i.e., the top and bottom of the given category). Similarly, there is no way to develop a category-based system where a rider of a certain profile (say, strong FTP with little punch) will be comparably successful across different course types. It would make sense that that person does better climbing straight uphill rather than on a punchy course or flat with a sprint finish.
3) I'm okay with evolving meanings of what is "B" or "C." I'm almost exactly like you in having been shunted around between B and C. And I think we have similar power profiles. My ideal is that each category have reliably consistent and adequate levels of participation. I like the idea of dynamic categories to ensure that each given race can offer that experience. Downside would of course be lack of predictability as to what category you're in and who you're racing, but you can still get a look at the start list before you start.
4) I'd want to see a given version of ZRS in place and sort out the system kinks and rider outliers before ZRS is implemented in a league series like ZRL. There, it's much more important to have consistency and ability to plan for who your competition is.
Appreciate your videos and commentary as always!
Excellent point of view, thank you!
I agree with all your points (I was saying those things previously too). I am now specifically concerned about the bottom half of current C category, as the C category is the largest and thus probably has the biggest skill gap. You could see in this race how quickly the gap split at the front. What was it - like two minutes? That's insane.
So as a c rider in old system still being used for Zwift racing league I run bottom of the rope third of racers. So out of 60 would be around 20th. With the change my points dropped so now I am a D rider again. Which is fine for me but me from 4 months when I was a D rider wouldn’t stand a chance against me today. My ftp is up 45 watts and my weight is down 14 pounds. There is a really easy way to solve this if they want to create more competitive races just have everyone join one category and then have the system split you into categories based off the riders that join. So create a lobby like system you join then at start time of race it stops new people joining and categorizes riders there for a race and then puts you on start line
Thanks for sharing!
The 180-350 bandwidth has old D, C & B racers. I raced stage 4 primetime ( Monday 17.10 GMT) , 156 racers.
3 B's in the top 5 and their scores are still below 350. Average power for top 5 was 3.5wkg highest was 3.8wkg. 1st D rider was 42nd (2.7wkg) and I was 3rd D rider in 44th (2.5wkg).
There is no incentive to race ZRS. The lower bandwidths are just ripped to bits by riders capable of producing big w/kg for 20 mins. There shouldn't be B's and D's in the same category.
I would say if those riders are outliers (like there are two or three in the race), it should fix with time - they will go up eventually.
The problem I see is when there's 20 such guys.
@RoadtoA I really hope it will get better but I don't see how. I believe ZRS is the way forward but the way Zwift has scored everyone is wrong. How can a B and a D have the same ZRS?
Look at the average power of the top 3 in each bandwidth. 0-180 2.4, 2.7, 2.8 cat C power. 180-350 3.8, 3.2, 3.5 cat B power. 350-520 3.6, 3.6, 3.8 cat B power. 520-690 3.9, 4.4, 4.1 cat A power. 690-1000 4.7, 4.5, 4.8 cat A power. This isn't going to get better because zwift is giving low score to riders with no 90 day data. This will happen every year.
@ two things here:
1) they can (and will in January) redo the category ranges. Hopefully that will help even out the categories.
2) they said that of rider doesn't have sufficient data in the 90 day period, they will look into their 1 year data so hopefully it shouldn't happen every year
Need to stop thinking about ABCD etc I can imagine they will add more fine grained categories later. As you say you detrained. This will make it feel much harder . It definitely did not look like a 520-690 race IMO. Enjoy your videos . Keep it up !
Thank you!
Hi, im C group rider, before change i was fighting for podium, now for top20 or even for first group...
@@renaldasurbanavicius1112 I can imagine! Thank you for sharing!
I got bumped down to cat D with latest ZRS, now I’m a decent Cat C so it’s a similar scenario for true Cat D’s. I think zwift need to create more categories so there’s less of a gulf between riders. Another race and I’ll be in your category and it will be putter misery racing, not fun people will stop racing
you are forgetting one thing in the analysis: a lot of half to lower tier C riders have been thrown into D now (im one of those). so overall the change does not matter a real lot. It got harder for some, it got easier for some others...
I guess...hopefully you are right.
Hi! Do you know Sauce for Zwift? Will you try it in video?
Already did! It's great but I didn't feel it particularly improved my quality of life in game and it slowed my framerates when I was streaming/recording.
@@RoadtoA Okay thanks for the answer 😊 I didn't find that video. I think it can be interesting to see the group positions, actual watts of others and drafting effect, but if it lowers your framerate, that's not ideal indeed. I will try it on my side to see how it does
Can't really make my mind up at the minute. I was 492 before the change, and I dropped down to 438 (I think). I feel like I'll be stuck there now as I race, and it goes up a little and then race with higher w/kg but goes down. Not sure there's anywhere to go at 89kg other than in the same place. I'm just racing as a good work out now.
@@paulnetherwood224 I don't feel it is necessary to top 10 all the time. But I can imagine this is pretty frustrating for the C riders. I mean there was a break of the B guys right at the first Sgurr Summit.
It killed my 250-350 race also. I went from podium every race to being dropped from the first group after 4km into a 22km race.
Yikes. Thank you for sharing!
I’m a D rider . When the ZRS came out it put me at 252. I’ve since gone down to 201. Previously in Cat D I was able to come top 5 with a sprint at the end. But now I’m struggling to stay with the pack and I get dropped and I’m coming in with the last quarter .
I’m still doing 2.3w/kg for the duration and 2.4w/kg for the first 20 minutes. But it’s just not enough and I do feel demoralised. Where it was fun before , I feel that half of what was Cat C are now in my races . I’m busted by the end and can’t sprint and I’m fighting for 28th place . I hope the score eventually puts people into the correct bands or they create narrower bands so we can all be competitive with people of a similar fitness . Ok my power isn’t amazing but it used to be fun
Thank you for sharing!
@ in Cat D if you could hold 2.5w/kg for a few weeks you were promoted to Cat C , but now I come 20th and there are people averaging 3.7w/kg , going but the numbers at end of the race . It’s no longer fair
I have the exact same problems or experience with the new racing score as I did with the w/kg cat. I start the season in a category and after some weeks I upgrade to a higher cat and I do not stand a chance, not only in the beginning, but still 6 weeks after the upgrade, there is no emprovement on my result, I mean my FTP has gotten better, but my race result is pretty much the same or actually worse. If the had kept the old w/kg cat and extended it into 5 groups instead of 4, it would have been the same as the new racing score cat. Maybe it has potential, I do not know, but certainly hope so.
I'm in same boat. Managed 3.5 wkg and finished11th. Nearly died on that last climb
I had a rating of 620 and now I’m like 508 or some shit….the race i did yesterday was no joke in the same cat as you….looking at the next cat (B or 2) race, holy smokes, I’d be crushed
I know right? 🤣
It was a great racing against you mate. Yeah zwift cat are broken. I averaged 3.8w/kg and We are in C cat ???
Also for comparaison I did a B race last week and got 50/100 so we can still race in B just not win for now
@@Doralex1708 I almost top 10d B race month ago.🤣
My first race after I came back, was 2nd place with 4 w/kg, it is not C category.
I think this was a good race.
i have the same right now. I was midd B. now i am at 508 points. I can lead the group... And finish in the top 5 % riding avg. 4.0 W/kg. C cat. is mixed with a lot of diff. lvls....
wont that be sorted out by itself? people winning will move up and the bottom half will slowly go to cat D? I think it needs some time to adjust. Original sorting might have been a bit off though
this looks crazy. It feels a bit like Zwift is changing ZRS and changing ZRS and changing ZRS, but for what? One problem is solved, and two new problems emerge...
@@GeorgAndTheBike I hope this will get sorted out by new category ranges. I feel that if you mDe the C cutoff at like 480-490 ZRSs it would be perfect for Cs. The same for B and let the A being a little bigger.
@@RoadtoA I am not too optimistic, because Zwift has every relevant data point of millions of users over the years. So if you have all the data you need, it's at the end the question of whether you are able to build a model that does what it should do or not. Zwift has been working on the ZRS for over a year now and it feels like they have no real clue how to achieve the goal of more even racing fields. So they keep changing and changing and hoping for the best. Just imagine someone would do that on the financial markets, they would be bankrupt by now...
I really hope Zwift proves me wrong, but I don't see how
@@RoadtoA I think thats the problem is the range in the cats are too large. I dont know how you fix it though and still have enough people in each cat to have decent races, especially come springtime when there will be fewer people around.
@ The problem is once they optimize for one kind of race, it is going to be off for another one. I don't even know what I would do now and I work with numbers for living.
Maybe less races and more categories would be the solution?
@ Less races (maybe one every three hours?) and more groups? I don't know either.
Similar situation to you now, a ZRS of 507, hoping to hold on in the tougher races and push myself into the second category and avoid yo-yoing from that point on :D
Do you think that there is possibility that scoring get recalculated at the conclusion of the Baseline series?
@@__-fu2dn Not the full score but the Baseline will give them data to seed riders better. Also they promised a change of the category of ranges in January.
What wheels do you recommend? Zwifter Bikes shows DT Swiss ARC 1100 Dicut Disc but I don't see anyone riding on the solid disc wheel. Seems like it would be heavy up the climbs. BTW I'm CAT C and really struggling with new scoring and cannot pace anywhere near as fast as you went. Congrats!
@@lovetorun8517 the disc wheels are the best for courses like this, yeah. But they look stupid, IMO, so I use the ENVEs.🤣
@@RoadtoA LOL well I need all the help I can get so I'll try the DT Swiss. At least I'm an Avatar and no one will recognize me at the grocery store. 😅
@@lovetorun8517 Go for it dude!
Those are d cat numbers now haha
Soon everyone will be in a single category/
@RoadtoA to be fair it's exactly what I expected from a results based system. Guessing they've finally removed the power floors now 😩
Has this changed again. Done a short crit this morning and c was between 320 and 480.
It didn't change, but some race organizers have option to set their own categories.
i raced this course yesterday, the first part of race was terrible. exhausted in less than 3 minutes
Yep! Hard one!
Yep! I'm a solid C and am getting SPANKED in races currently. Particularly crits.
@@Greg41982 I'm sorry about that, really.
I used to be rated at 440 but have been downgraded to 370. I thought my nxt race at the lower score would be "easier".Hell no! I did a Zwift Insider Saturday morning(GMT) 4 mini race series.Out of 52 came 48,46,42 and 41. Which shows a progression on the positive side but I was absolutely hanging....I couldn't have squeezed one more ounce of effort out of my tried little torso. So not sure how I feel abt this new rating system. Maybe the old system was to "easy" and this is the true level you need to be at to improve?
Tiny Races are not really comparable to standard racing, they are absolutely brutal, always.
@RoadtoA Irony, since the Tiny races I've been upgraded to being B Cat rider!!! 🚲💪
You have also not race for a month and it is also shown in quickly rise in HR with short effort compared to your level before. Im sure with more training and races you will get back to previous shape. It will take time. Your avg power also lower but it will be better as well when getting back to shape. Im not Zwift racer but enjoy your content. Judge on the winners w/kg they dont belong there also because they probably created that crazy start of the race
Yea sure, my current form influenced my impression, that's for sure. That said, I knew it did, and I tried to detach from it when evaluating the results.
all the groups are harder now, i've not done much in recent years and back training again now, racing d cat and my numbers are similar to when i could win races most of the time, now everything's more intense and a struggle to get near the top. to me d seems mid c level. i did the same race as you today but d cat and we're the same weight, the average power was about the same and i just sat in the front group the entire time. bring back the old groups lol
@@gamingmidget I was not a fan of the old categories. But this seems...rought around the edges.
Thank you for feeling sorry for me. I am a true c rider with a score of 380. I will never be in a chance to compete for evan a top 10. I am lucky to be in top third. Been like that for a couple of years. Never mind. Just try to enjoy it anyway.
Best of luck!
i reached cat A today after an FTP test
Man my legs still hurt
Still racing in 'cat B' tho so thats perfect for now
@@eijmert You're going to make them hurt.
A couple more races and you'll move to the upper category
@@hugoz6950 Yeah I know, this is not about me. I was fine in this race.