Does Shaft Flex Make a Difference?
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Shaft flex is one of those topics that can be quite confusing for many golfers. It seems that there are as many opinions on the topic as there are options to choose from. We wanted to approach the question of "Does it really matter?" a little bit differently, and show why the shaft in your driver can either be helping or hurting one key element of your drives.
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To Athletic Motion Golf:
If you want to do a real comparison of Taylormade’s new driver, Sam Max-D along with it’s standard shafts.. you must compare them to this driver Taylormade SLDR driver..
And compare the Sim Max driver & shaft to the Max 3 driver
Then we can find out if there is an improvement in technology across-the-board..
If this made sense, how do you explain Kyle Berkshire, Justin James, and Martin Borgmeier using an almost senor shaft for long drive, not to mention 1st and 2nd place, which means Kyle and Just this last year. It's a shaft made by Paterson called Velocity LD. I would also like to add how you explain the auto shaft, meaning it's super flexible but beats every stiff shaft for ball speed? It's really stupid to make a test on one golfer and say this is the answer
@@debrajohnson4689 “almost senior flex”😂. Berkshire plays a XX Paterson shaft lol. But honestly, players who swing it over 140mph are such outliers that we’re not that interested in their equipment. We used one in this video because of what the person referred to in his comment. We spent more time discussing what normal golfers play than LD’s do. I also don’t believe the auto flex was available when this video was shot. So it’s quite silly to scold us about not discussing a shaft that wasn’t available lol.
Actually some WLD guys are now switching to much softer shafts. Ryan Gregnol broke the World Ball Speed record early this year (2023), using an Accra FX 3.0 140 M0 shaft.@@AthleticMotionGolf
It would be great to demonstrate all the flexes at 100mph to show why stiff may be the best option, or maybe it isn't? Again, great info to get people thinking
Agree with previous comments in that I would like to see this same video with 90 mph and 80 mph swing speed. Most of us seniors can't get up to 99 mph anymore.
We can do that for you guys. What shaft and flex are you currently playing now?
Fascinating stuff. Would like to have heard more about what the actual clubhead speed was for these shots. Maybe another similar video showing shaft flex of golfers with different clubhead speed is in order.
Sure, Michael... Reg was 99, Stiff 106, X was 110, and XX was 146.
Thanks!
Is there any way you can you can take those individual swings at those MPH (mere human speeds, forget the 146, lol) and make a general correlation to each shaft stiffness? So if I swing around 100 MPH, am I better off with an R, S or X shaft assuming all other swing factors are equal.
That will require a lot of data collection for each speed (something we are doing) but will take some time.
Thanks.
You HAVE TO make a video on how shaft flex affect club face rotation!
Absolutely love this explanation Video 👍🏻
Way late to this vid, and I find it interesting, very interesting actually, about lead deflection. Never thought of it at all. What I find more fascinating, especially now, is how long driver Kyle Berkshire hits it over 400 yards in competition...using a regular flex shaft. That's a lot different then the guys from before using quasi extra stiff Harrison Pro shafts and like 3 degree lofted heads! Nothing is concrete I guess.
Yeah, the guy laughed at me when I told him that lol sounds like they really know golf shafts
Won't those numbers change depending on the swing speed of the shaft in question? That would be a great video. Take each shaft and compare 80 vs 90 vs 100 vs 110 mph.
Agreed, the video forgets to mention it depends on the players ability to flex the shaft in the first place. It implies we should all use x-stiff to gain speed. Just seeing a single golfer (same speed/mechanics) use each shaft would be really interesting. Even better, 4 golfers with all shafts at the speeds you suggested.
Super super super interesting. Superb information. Whats has bigger impact on kick speed- clubhead speed or loading profile of golfer?
I would probably say release timing and shaft profile then speed and loading (from the top). It's a great question and very player dependent, but that would be my ranking order.
Outstanding. You just hit a topic you could spend weeks on and no one would get tired of it. I’d love to see the same shafts at different swing speeds. I’m sure tempo and transition could be the difference between two players with the same swing speed requiring different flex or kick point. It would be interesting to see how high and low kick point shafts affect the kick. I could easily see this kind of measurement becoming an industry standard if someone was willing to put the energy into it.
Thanks, Gary. The high/low kick point idea would make a great comparison video - thanks for the suggestions!
Really interesting video, initially I concluded that player's probably need a stronger shaft but I see from the comments the Regular flex golfer clocks in a 99 MPH suggesting his original fit was wrong.It would be interesting to see the influence of profile at a consistent speed, would a tip strong profile maximise kick speed?Looking forward to the next video.
Thanks 170!
Once we get into the tipping influence of a given shaft, I think the best way to determine "how much influence" would be to take a Brand X Model X shaft with about 3-4 various tip lengths chopped off and see what happens. I think that would make for an interesting video for sure - thanks for the suggestion!
Mike, tipping a shaft retains the original profile, making the shaft a little stronger. If you compare two shafts with different profiles for example the Mitsubishi Tensi pro blue and pro orange, the results should be interesting. You can see the profiles on the Mitsubishi Chemicals site. Keep up this interesting series.
Wow. Absolute best video on the topic I've seen hands down. Looking forward to the effects on face angle!
Thanks for the kind words & thanks for watching. Great idea on the “face angle” aspect. 👍🏼
loved this data . !
True temper data states that shaft fitting for flex is more about transition speed than club head speed. seems thats the biggest error for club fitters..
can you do a gears presentation
concerning transition speed and Tempo
thanks..
jeff San Diego
former JJ GOLF SCHOOL INST.
Jeff, how are they defining transition? At what two points would we need to check the speed?
This video leaves me up in the air as to what shaft would best suit me. I am a senior of 72 years and have just bought a new
set of clubs...woods and irons that are rated senior flex. My driver swing speed is around 80 mph. I have been golfing for 50 +
years, was down to a 6 handicap and now up to 12. I am unhappy with my current handicap and thought these might give me more clubhead speed and more distance, which I have lost. Can you test the results of senior shafts and what effect they will
have for us elders? Shaft bending as you are showing in above results, I was well aware of, but not the effect on distance. Can you do us seniors a favor and discuss this in another video, as there are a lot of us out there who could use the information. Thanks very much......
We can absolutely do that video, Keith - great idea!
What is your current set and what shafts are in your clubs? We might have that model on hand for the video😉
Still awaiting your video regarding shaft flex, after sending you the specs you asked for........Thanks very much
Keith, those videos take quite a bit amount of time to put together. We intend to do it, but it most likely will not be done in the very near future.
keith irvine , I am with you Keith! Great info but useless. Telling me what I already know but is not helpful unless swing speed is quantified.
Shame the old timers have to take a back seat all the time. Seems everywhere you go the emphasis is on the young upcoming golfers. We elders have contributed a lifetime to golf in money and time spent playing and practicing, yet we 'over the hillers' can't seem to find adequate help. Our time is running out and we still want to improve........
If this made sense, how do you explain Kyle Berkshire, Justin James, and Martin Borgmeier using an almost senor shaft for long drive, not to mention 1st and 2nd place, which means Kyle and Just this last year. It's a shaft made by Paterson called Velocity LD. I would also like to add how you explain the auto shaft, meaning it's super flexible but beats every stiff shaft for ball speed? It's really stupid to make a test on one golfer and say this is the answer
So, based on the decrease in speed on regular shafts how do they help the slower swinging golfer. I realize they are generally lighter than stiff or X stiff. How about kick point - stiffness of tip and so on.
Michael don't read this as regular shafts have a decrease in speed, but rather the profile of the shaft needs to fit your release to get the most available benefit from the shaft. The profile would include all the elements you mentioned.
I am getting a lite X flex shaft.
Hi again gents,
Had a look thru the comments but can’t see any swing speeds in there relating to the video!!
Cheers
Chris
The are under Michael Herring's comments👍
Great question!
Im thinking when hand path( speed ) is zero and we have change of direction.
Those numbers are going to be very low (slow).
Can I ask you a question? Have you measured /annalised the following!
1. Extra stiff (35inch) graphite shaft compared to (45inch) same shaft?
Doesn't the 45inch naturally bend/flex more because of length difference?
2. Same experiment with steel shafts.
3. Can you proportional differentiate between impact of swing"force" and speed when hitting PW(120y's) and 1Driver((290y's)
The impact of this on shaft flex. You don't hit your PW as "hard" as you do your D, do you?
4. Shouldn't all this proof that your flex of shafts will need to differ gradual down from 1D down to SW.
In my opinion 9Iron down to all the wedge's, shaft flex, have no significant influenced on accuracy or distance.
1. No, we haven't tested the same shaft with a 10" length difference. Don't need to because any length change will have an influence on stiffness.
2. Same as #1
3. Yes, that's swing speed and the mass of the club.
4. Flex of shaft does differ through an iron set with tapered shafts (the most common iron shaft). For parallel tip shafts, the tip is trimmed to accomplish the same result.
@@AthleticMotionGolf thanks for responding bru. I have more tech Q's. Theories and traditions of golf limit the game I believe.
I'm experimenting swinging with flexed elbow /arm. Let me explain:
I address(stance) ball with posture, imagining exact body posture as at impact, then I take club back, turning body/hips/shoulders without trying to keep left arm straight(as taught). Alowing my arm to bent, I have less strain/stress. Same parallel shaft on top only arc radius smaller. Then I strike as hard as I can through ball allowing left arm release to straight position like at address. My theory has to do with a boxer jab and whipp lash effect. Ever seen knock guy backwards with a 2" punch. This has to do with coil energy release. I'm dutch, forgive my terminology. I found beter balance and a much easier way of generating club head force/speed. I don't have any measurement equipment. But listening to the whipp/sweez sound club makes. I do swing it faster this way, no doubt. Try it yourself. Equipment, technology and all else is relative and subordinate to shear practice and repetition.
(Bruce Lee is the 2" punch guy)
What I'm saying is everything depends on that split second at IMPACT, how you arrive at that moment doesn't matter(Happy Gilmore)...balls respond as to distance and direction depends totally on that exact moment of impact.
ruclips.net/video/Gcu2wpKY1bE/видео.html
Great video, I found it late. From an intent perspective, should the golfer be trying to intentionally bend the shaft and create negative or trail deflection prior to release? Does "feeling" like bending the shaft create clubbed speed? Thank you
Neither of those are possible. You want to find a shaft that does that cycling in a way that fits your swing.
The major problem is there is no standard for anything in golf so all the shaft manufacturers have a different rating for each flex. So just go with what feels the best and gives the best results regardless of what the shaft says.
So the only standard is no standard😊
@@AthleticMotionGolf Spot on.🙂🙂
Wow! Fantastic video!
Thanks, Jim, we appreciate you taking the time to watch!
So is the goal of shaft fitting to get the end of the cycle to be at impact as the stiff flex shaft was in this video? If not what is the goal of shaft fitting.. I have never seen anything like this and this is great stuff..
The goal can be different depending on what you want most from your equipment. If it's max speed, this would help. For better players, it often comes down to finding a shaft that puts the face where you want it relative to your release. Then optimizing from there.
Interesting, how does the gears system measure shaft flex during the swing? Is it all with video cameras or sensors on the golf club? Thanks for the vid!
Thanks, Ben! Gears uses both... 8 cameras that collect the information from 6 markers on the club head and shaft.
Another issue with shafts is there is no standard with regards to flex, one manufacturers stiff is another's regular. Its about time the frequency of the shaft was displayed instead of R, S and XS, that way the average golfer knows the true flex and can compare like with like.
Many manufacturers do give their frequency numbers for the entire length of the shaft. One frequency number is pretty much useless unless you are comparing 2 identical shafts.
So what needs to be on a golf shaft that tells us what we are really hitting as R, S and XS is to vague ?
Thos letters just represent overall stiffness. It's more useful to know the stiffness profile which consists of the butt stiffness, middle stiffness, and tip stiffness. That info is typically on the spec sheet/website of the shaft company.
So basically the flex letters on golf shafts are pretty meaningless ?
They aren't meaningless, especially when comparing shafts in the same family, but they don't describe the full characteristics of the shaft... but some manufacturers do put those on the shaft now.
Interesting.... ~15yrs ago there was a clubmaker on some internet forums who discussed similar data/recommendations for shaft flex by using an accelerometer-like device - generally he recommended stiffer flex shafts for many players than other's suggested. He was routinely bashed on the forums then. Maybe he was on to something as I am certain that I remember him discussing the frequency or flex cycle and fitting the shaft to reach the maximum amplitude (as you call positive or negative deflection) of the flex frequency at a certain point in the swing to correspond with the acceleration profile.
Bingo! Spot on for distants but and there is always a but now that you have the perfect shaft that and 3 mph at impact due to frequency I guess you could control accuracy with torque?
So ya I guess there would also be a torque frequency.
Sean and Mike, after watching this video it seems to reason that there is no correlation between shaft flex and swing speed. Shaft flex looks to be determined at position of tip at impact. Is this usually fixed with flex, kickpoint, or tip firmness?
Great video and very interesting subject. Do the PGA tour guys you have on gears have mostly lag deflection through or past impact or is it a mixed bag? Are these guys getting that few extra mph while your average amateur is usually in lag deflection? Someone like DJ would most likely be in lead deflection through or past the ball. (just guessing)
Check your inbox Frank👍
For sure it would matter how fast the club was being swung.
Is it possible that a golfer like John Rahm with a short backswing is able to get more power at impact by completing the club cycle closer to impact or even just past impact? If so would this type of swing more likely generate positive kick speed? Thanks, guys this is really interesting stuff.
Like you line of thinking on this and it's def possible. But we need to see his capture to really know. The theory certainly sounds plausible.
Wonderful video! What are you using to measure this? Can you get these measurements from any of the launch monitors? I'm around 90-95 mph, on a guess. I have a Matrix White Tie 50 R in a new driver. Is this a good fit and what would deflection be like on this shaft?
Thank you, General! We used the GEARS Golf 3D motion system to get this data. Unfortunately, this information on shafts cannot be duplicated by a launch monitor... at least not yet. The only place to get this info is from this system. What area of the globe are you located?
I live in southern Alabama. Unfortunately, it's nowhere near any great golf tech cities. I would LOVE to get into a true dealer shop, not a golf super store, to be custom fit for everything. Thanks for the reply, means a lot about your channel!
Southern Bama is "close" to the Gears studio at the David Toms Academy in Shreveport
Wow beautiful, do you fit shafts using the same method?
Ok got that, but is club head speed different to swing speed?
No sir, they are the same thing and often used interchangeably.
Great vid!
🙏
Run your computer analytics on a robot driving machine fitted with shafts. Then show the distance and ball dynamics. Thanks
This must be the scientific reason as to why rhythm and tempo is so crucial in a golf swing.
Love where your head's at Winston💪
Hi, at what speed we’re those examples?
Cheers
Chris
We're down here in Orlando for the PGA show, and I don't have those numbers in front of me... but we did answer that question in a few weeks ago in the comments here.
It depend on the swing speed for each shaft. This video is not very clear or precise on the swing speed for each staff to get the most benefit
Please define Droop.
The tip end of the shaft bending downwards towards the ground.
acceleration is distance divided by time.
we have been saying .25 sec form top of hand path to impact. Im guessing but seems like( from your data on hand path) you could use percentage of hand speed to left arm parallel vs left arm parallel to impact.. sorry if its a head scratcher
in the past it has been said walk slow talk slow use a soft shaft. conversely walk fast talk fast stiff shaft.
thank you for your time consider it may identify additional data for proper fitting
and thus the good of the players and the game.. keep trying okay
thanks again
Can you see this on an iphone video? or do you need high speed video?
You can't see this on video at all unfortunately
What about shaft weight and shaft diameter?
As far as their influence?
Yes. I use a 60g shaft on my driver and I see Adam Scott uses the same shaft but in a 70g. Just curious.
gotcha... it all goes into the system of "better" or "worse" for sure, but being able to discern and quantify its influence between different golfers becomes quite difficult. Weight does have an influence for sure though.
Using humans is NOT a propler way to conduct any "test" when an iron Byron is available to use the exct same swing speed and angle of attack. Use an Iron Byron and the exct same driver or iron head with different flex shafts (same brand and model) then and only then can you judge what actual flex dies to a club. This "test" was not scientifc or informative in any way.