Absolutely the best explanation I have seen of this. I have seen another more recent demonstration of the same issue by a well respected fitter using three driver shafts with the same weight but different flexes (X, S and R/S) and three shafts with different weights (50, 60 and 70) but the same stiff flex. They also put top priority on weight rather than flex. But the test focused on launch monitor data plus the location of the strike on the face. They discussed how it felt, and the tester mentioned how he felt the differences affected his backswing, and also the dispersion. But they did not deal with or explain the key biomechanics point that Simon makes so clear and simple of being able to simply move the club around him in balance, without having to make more or less effort or hand adjustments, Kudos and thanks.
Great video. Absolutely fact. I started golf with the latest technology which consisted of steel driver shafts and persimmon heads. Today my driver has a 45 gram graphite shaft. I just can't swing a heavy club anymore.
Many thanks. I remember those days as a junior starting with persimmon woods with steel shafts too - taught you to find the middle of the club!! You’re spot on about the weight though as it is a case of physically being able to move the club at speed and retain balance and control or not being able to no matter what other characteristics the shaft has.
Not sure why I haven’t seen this video before ,,, It has irritated me that fitters check what shaft you are playing with and recommend something similar. One fitter said def light graphite and I was making 3 inch divots behind the ball. Sold the clubs in 2 weeks. Lately, went for a fitting and told the fitter let’s star heavy and work down - eureka 120gms. Superb tempo and getting great ball descent.
Yes. The difference can be drastic. Added 25 yards to my 8 iron carry distance. Heavier shaft and heavier swing weight. Interestingly with driver I use a light very stiff flex with a heavy swing weight.
@@nicholasdemetriades9154I had some silly strong loft clubs regular stiffness with 80 grams. Changed to Titleist blades 3-4 degree weaker lofts with 130 gram shafts. Hit the ball even further with the weaker lofts and a proper shaft
Almost all iron shafts progress weight through the set however the AMT do progress weight much more aggressively. Whilst the principle seems good in practice they can get too light in long irons or too heavy in short irons and that can make consistent timing hard to achieve through the set
Hi Jay. This particular video was about shaft weight which goes before swing weight in the fitting process. The 2 go hand in hand in that order. You are absolutely right though, swingweight is of paramount importance to ensure the optimal shaft weight swings correctly. Please also see our video about swingweight ruclips.net/video/70t11l6Nm64/видео.html
This has to be one of the best videos Ive ever watched and have explained. Ive been doing a ton of shaft research lately because I am buying direct to consumer club heads soon.
Thank you for an excellent vid and I 110% agree with your statement that "shaft weight is KING". I realised years ago that I have a weight "sweet spot" that works with my swing mechanics that allows me to deliver a square clubface. Anything heavier or lighter throws off my timing and screws up my clubface delivery. As Ian Fraser of TXG puts it "the shaft is a timing device". But there can be another factor at work here and that is our reaction to what a "Fitter tells us" about a particular shaft or club. I am VERY autosuggestive and I will react to what the fitter says about a shaft/club. So I prefer a Fitting where the fitter doesn't influence me and doesn't tell me anything about what I am being handed and just lets me react to what I feel That way my brain reacts purely to how the shaft feels rather than what I have been told that it should feel.
Glad you enjoyed the video. Ian and Simon are very aligned with their views on shafts. Great that you know how you react to things and critical for a fitter to know this info at the start so they can tailor the indignation provided to get the best results for you from the session
@@zarlodious1 Unfortunately, due to health issues I am now an ex-golfer. When I was in my 40s-50s my sweet spot was 60 grams, but as I aged I found that going down to 55 grams really helped my timing.
Great video. The so called ‘experts’ at my local Golf Shop were telling me to focus on flex, but I kept insisting that shaft weight effected my shots much more. Needless to say, I didn’t buy from them.
Thanks for your comment. Clubfitting is a “professional” profession taking years for experience to be proficient. Sadly that’s advice from someone who doesn’t understand the first principles of club fitting.
OMG. I got fitted for new irons a few months ago and went from 115g (stiff) shaft to 95g (reg) shaft per the recommendation from the fitter. Immediately I was missing LEFT and just couldn't find any consistency! Thought it was due to the flex and went back to my old clubs and immediately started hitting better. This video is literally that "aha!" moment. THANK YOU!!
This is why I am afraid to go to a fitter. IF the person is not knowledgeable it's very difficult for the buyer/golfer. One time I went to buy & get fitted for irons and I was also hitting all left. The guy had no clue what he was doing. He just kept changing different clubs/shafts. At the end, I had to return the mizunos I bought with his recommended shaft and I didn't play well with those at all, and ended up buying p790s off the shelf and I am hitting em great.
Hmm... I switched from 130g steel to 89g graphite and I had it sorted out within a few days of swinging at home and I now much prefer the graphite. But to go from steel to graphite in a fitting would have been impossible. I do agree weight is more likely what's causing most of the issues in a fitting rather than flex though.
My mistake, I think my comment was for another video regarding Caitlyn Clark and the WNBA. I appreciate your video on the weight of a shaft. Very informative.
I sometimes FEEL like with a heavier shaft, i attack the ball a little more from the inside. Ive tried the dynamic gold x100, and tried the 120g version x100....with the normal version more of a draw is present, and having seen this video, it makes sense as to why
Excellent video. Over the last few years (with the benefit of fitting from Precision), my iron shafts have got heavier and my driver shaft slightly lighter!
Great explanation. I am seeing recorded in slowmo shaft droop with TT mid 100. When the shaft in parallel to the ground before hitting and the ball goes to the right. Can it also impact club head speed?
I recently purchased new irons, I went from 120g (steel) to 95g (graphite) shafts. I did this because i liked the irons and they were in my price range. (I'm not in a place to pay for the custom irons that come with a fitting) Can I experiment with lead tape on the shaft to increase the weight of my new irons?
I would not advise trying to change the weight by much as the lead tape will probably come off so unless you were attempting a real fine tune it will be hard to make too much of a difference without needing to re-apply it fairly regularly
Hi Derek. Sadly completely guesswork. I play Steelfibre CW i110S in irons, Ventus Blue 5S in Driver, Devotion 7 HB in FWs and GD DI 85S in Hyb but you could need something completely different. It’s about speed/load/feel/flight preference, everyone is unique. James
. I just watched a long video of a driver fitting for a middle aged bloke 12 handicap. Removing the weight off the driver head had significant improvements in club speed and distance hit. Same shaft .
I swear on this.. I used to swing a dynamic gold s300 which I think weighs around 130grms and my typical miss was right. I somehow got fitted with a 105grm shaft and I’m now pull hooking every other shot
Great explanation and thank you. Now I know why my lighter weight shaft mizuno blades would always go left no matter what I did. Back to DGSs300 and all was back to normal
Thank you for this video! I really like your wording where you talk about you overpowering the club cuz that's exactly what I feel with my current clubs. That is a great way to think of it in terms of even trying to fit myself which I will go to a professional fitter as well but even just understanding when I'm overpowering a club versus if it's overpowering me. Great concept thank you
In my case, of relatively slow speed of swing ~92 m/h, the weight of the shaft doesn't make any difference. I swing all shaft weights with the approximately same speed and achieve the same distance. It seams illogical but it is that what it is, I believe there must be a lot of some compensation involved. Actually I preferer heavier shafts that are much more consistent for me in the left , right distribution.
You do find players who “normalise” their timing no matter what they swing but there will be a weight which gives the best and most natural synchronisation which will minimise variables. Ultimately whatever feels most natural and simple is likely to be the best for you!
So happy we have made you appreciate it could be the weight of the shaft and not the flex; if you have any more questions please don’t hesitate to drop us a line! Happy New Year 🥳
That certainly used to be the case but it is changing. The majority of golfers have an out to in swing path so ultimately that is why a slice is the most common miss but long driver shafts do not help this either
You are correct, however this video was focussed on the shaft in particular and his the weight of the shaft as opposed to the shaft flex has the bigger influence on shot pattern and consistency
Strength invariably makes a difference and often reflected in swing speed after the fit; improved synergy of weight and golfer will make for more speed. 😊
fantastic vid, and FWIW i've noticed the same thing in my own swing. I don't swing very fast (i'm in my 50's, i'm an avid golfer, i'm about a 3 handicap, and my driver swing is around 100-102 mph). But the sweet spot weight of a driver shaft for me is about 60-65 grams. The ultralight shafts completely throw my timing off. I eventually deduced it, through trial and error (buying various shafts is somewhat easy nowadays with the ability to change them out and eBay). It convinced me to educate myself over these sorts of things rather than trust just any fitter. Of course there's no way i'd know as much as a great fitter, but how do you ever know if you've got a guy fitting you of that caliber? In any case, great vid, and i'm definitely a new subscriber!
Many thanks and greatly appreciated. Ultimately the only way to know is whether there is a logic to the progression through the fitting process that they can explain why they are testing with particular head and shaft combinations. As long as they can explain the options, what the characteristics are and why they are being used then that should stand you in good stead!
I used to fit clubs for Ping amd Callaway and build clubs like Miuras. My clubs are all MOI matched. Swingweight is a completely idiotic measure of club weight. No engineer would understand swingweight as a measurment. Weight and more importantly MOI is the most important part of fitting but sadly ots just not understood or set up to fot at scale.
You are correct, swingweight without any other context or being related to the components etc is just an arbitrary scale. MOI is a more scientific measure, however this cannot be matched through the set as the energy input by the player changes club to club so no scale is completely perfect. As long as the fitter understands what swingweight truly displays and how to apply it correctly during the fitting it can be utilised to good effect
Well the point of this video is to show that weight is important. You could have a shaft 30 grams lighter SW the same at the heavier one but the golfer will say they feel different. This is because SW doesn't relate to what the golfer feels. They feel MOI. You say you can't match a set but my irons and wedges are matched exactly. Yes with woods, the length change is so large and the shafts weights so different that the target moi number is likely different. However, I have found that once you have a golfers target moi with a driver, if you make all other driver shaft combos measure that number, the player will in general say they like that feel. I'm not saying it is easy to do or practical for masses but what I am saying is the measure for what golfers feel in a golf club/ swing is MOI. Not Swing weight, not dead weight (static weight).They feel MOI. So in the perfect world, golfers should understand that MOI is what they should measure if they want to understand what they like or what they feel.
I swing my driver at 98mph so fit between reg and stiff however I agree that weight has a bigger effect on flight. I like 60g but do play a 70g for lower flight in windy dry conditions. I tried a 50g but balloons in driver. The heavier weight is more stable for straighter shots.
@@Precision_Golf Definitely requires some trial and error and Ive found in driver that different shafts suit different heads regardless of weight. I do prefer a CB shaft too. I have 50g in my fairway woods for more height and 120g in my irons for control. Cheers from Oz..
I tend to hit the ball left to right with the 55 gram and get almost zero roll on my drives. I like the light weight but wonder if the 65 or 70 will help hit lower and get roll?
Good stuff! How about increasing shaft weight vs increasing head weight? I had an iron fitting elsewhere and in that I prefered swinging a heavier shaft (as the stock head weight was all that was offered), but wonder if a lighter shafter together with some lead on the head may have benefits
Both have merits depending on the player - some players benefit from having extra shaft weight to drive against in transition, others benefit from a heavier head on a lighter shaft. The more aggressive the move in principle the heavier shaft will be better, the head weight is more about helping to time the strike/hand action.
Interesting. I just bought some irons used for my brother and took them to the course to give them a try. My irons are Nippon 850 GH R (roughly 85 grams or so - maybe a bit less) and these new ones are TT Elevate 95 Stiff (95-ish grams). Same heads in both: PXG 0211 ST blades. I was expecting to need to muscle them a bit to square the face (my 7-iron speed is right around 78 mph), but they felt absolutely fine. In fact, my timing seemed better, especially with the longer irons.
I notice when you address the ball you have the club set up nowhere near the ball. Is their a reason you do this? I know a guy called moe Norman used to have the club way behind the ball. 👍
It is not a conscious thing - I can only assume I moved slightly further from the ball for strike (I’ve never suffered from shanks though) and now it is a bit of a swing trigger. Now Moe Norman really is a legend of ball striking!!
@@Precision_Golf I do the opposite because of shank's. I address the ball from the hosel knowing I shank because my hands go out. If they go out if I address the ball from the hosel I'll miss the ball! Thanks for the reply mate👍
Yes, but why adapt when you don’t need to by using a set up that compliments you? All you will do is make yourself less consistent as you are altering your natural patterns
@@Precision_Golf I so agree with this. Years ago I taught my friend to play golf and even starting as a 28 handicapper he was hitting baby draws off the tee. Long story short, I disappeared off the scene and years later when I caught up with him he said he'd changed and was now hitting a fade. What he was actually doing was starting his swing with his chest and coming over the top thus losing his draw. Because his "guru" wasn't there (me), and rather than see a pro and get it corrected, he changed his stance to compensate and now spends most of his time pushing his tee shots. It's awful to watch and has cost him 50 yards+ from the tee. Compensating is the worst, you need to correct. Don't adapt, fix! When something is wrong, seek help from those who know. 🙂
I got a shaft fitting last summer and then got some really good lessons that made me see the correct way to swing the club. I realize this was backwards to what I shoud have done but thats the way it turned out. I bought new irons which were different than what was recommended which we never even tested. But I feel the recommended clubs and shaft would have been no better with my new golf swing. So this spring when I can finally hit off some turf will be very interesting to see my ball flight. May have to get refitted. BTW the new irons are Mizuno 923 hm with 64 gram f3 recoil shafts.
Thanks for sharing. Hopefully the weather starts to improve soon so you can put some good practice in. If we can be of any help please don’t hesitate to drop the studio a call on 01932 977777
Funny how these crazy long distance drivers like Bryson Dechambeau use an A flex shaft. He claims it's an advantage. I guess he learned how to swing with it?
It is to do with the weight and with the dynamics they are putting in it allows them to develop more speed at the lighter weight. At the extreme loads they put in it can create impact dynamics that are impossible to recreate at lower speeds so there may be things they can achieve that mere mortals cannot!
It is to do with the weight and with the dynamics they are putting in it allows them to develop more speed at the lighter weight. At the extreme loads they put in it can create impact dynamics that are impossible to recreate at lower speeds so there may be things they can achieve that mere mortals cannot!
I think they just learned to use the club like a whip. A flexed shaft can store alot more kinetic energy. It's kinda like figuring out the point at which a whip cracks and breaks the sound barrier. Of course that is a loose analogy but that "crack" has to be the point of contact. A stiff shaft cannot concentrate energy like that to such a precise stage in it's range of motion. Deshambeau claims he has used clubs with a ladies flex successfully. I think with those factors you just have to throw conventional wisdom out the window and just build the muscle memory for the mechanics involved once you figure it out. These guy are not immortal, just cutting edge. They also use much larger grips. I'm sure that plays a role. @@Precision_Golf
I've never felt comfortable with a light shaft. Have no idea where the club head is. Unlike most of the golfing world in the past 30 years it seems I've never been after distance. I'm always looking for accuracy.
What’s the main difference between the DG 105 stiff and Nippon Modus 105 stiff. These were my top two performing shafts in my fitting. Not sure which one to go with. My two head options are either the Mizuno 245 or Wilson Dynapower forged. Thanks in advance.
@@Precision_Golf Thanks, one more question. Which of these shafts options are easier to counter balance (not sure if that’s the right terminology)? I got for +1inch in my irons. I’m worried this may make it harder to dial in the correct swing weight.
@@brianschultz7320 they are both tip balanced shafts so depending on grip size a heavier grip can help but that can also lead to issues. Ping heads are easiest to manage head weights depending what you have
@@Precision_Golf In my fitting, the ping i525 did not perform as well as the Mizuno Pro 245s and Wilson Dynaforged. I like how the Wilson’s felt but I know the heads run a bit heavy. That’s why I’m in this dilemma. Thank you for the insight though. This is my first fitting and I want to make sure I do it correctly.
Weight and swing weight is king, I usually swing around 113-120 something with my play driver and fitter assume I swing fast, so he gave me an X-Stiff flex and I absolutely hate the feel of the club and shaft, it's simply doesn't feel good or confidence building to me. Stiff tip with huge heavy head makes me have a hard time closing and squaring the face. I have smoother deliver but fast swing not the type that load the shaft in a traditional way. I'm so used to do well with Stiff or even Regular flex shaft so I knew there are more to this than just gave a fast swinger a high kick X stiff shaft have a feel of swinging a metal pole. So many fitters do not put in the customer's feel, preference and feedback, they can get too obsessed in the numbers and performance on paper and screen that if the club feels garbage or make you feel tired after testing them a short time then it's not the right combination.
You are absolutely spot on - you have to take into account HOW someone generates their speed and what feel they like and then you can tune it all together. The bad old ways of high speed needing a heavy x-stiff shaft should be behind us but sadly many fitters still go down this route.
Yes, head weight affects club face consistency and control but in terms of what element of the shaft makes the most difference to overall shot patterns it is dead weight.
Do you have another video discussing the balance point of the shafts? Because when you refer to going lighter and heavier are you just specifically referring to overall weight? Because I'm assuming once you change the shaft weight that would significantly affect the swing weight correct? So in other words when you were swinging the 95 Grand one and it was sort of flipping and you were saying there's not enough wait to keep the timing correct aren't there several ways you can do that? I'm just trying to understand if someone has a high balance point or low balance point in the shaft and then the overall weight and that combination depending how the person wants to feel the club. Do you have another video describing that dynamic?
Hi Jacob and sorry for the delayed reply. We will be doing another video on the subject soon - a 10g shaft weight change does alter swingweight by roughly 1 point. In this video I am talking about total weight change rather than swingweight specifically and that this rather than flex has the largest impact on your swing. Swingweight will affect how under control the club face is through impact and how consistent it can be but correct total weight determines general synchronisation between the player and club through the swing.
On the money. I was always a weight first,shaft flex second guy. I play off a 2. I have been fitted. I was always given a 65-75 gram driver shaft , stiff. my swing speed 103-106. my avg. carry 243. i just turned 60, on my birthday I bought a sim max2. 50 gram,stiff,ventus blue. carry now 260-269.swing speed avg106-108. so yea your numbers on the mark .shaft weight does trump flex. keep up the good work.
I think this added more confusion than resolution. All 3 of these weighs seem heavy. Is it because they are on Irons? For a DRIVER with carbon shaft, what would be the "typical" 3 weights? You only mention feel as a criteria, could swing speed give us a clue / starting point of required weight? I swing (driver) 105mph. What about swing weight. Historically it was normally around D2 (Driver). Nowadays it seems more like D5. Different shaft weights certainly change that. Is that what you are, by default, actually "matching" ? If so is there a typical average / Hi / Low range of swing weight for driver at say 105mph? Schaun
The typical three driver shaft weights would be 55g, 65g and 75g however you cannot say what weight would work for a particular swing speed when it is strong at over 100mph - you have to match the weight to his someone moves therefore minimising compensation at impact and therefore improving consistency. Shaft weight does change swingweight but that is not what is being matched but if forms part of what gives consistency. Low swingweight would be D0, high would be D5 but it is a wide window. Ultimately the video was to show shaft flex does not affect performance as much as historically and regularly said, shaft weight is what dictates the majority of consistency of contact and shot dispersion.
I have a 72" driver shaft. It's hilarious to swing but it hits 450yrds at 160mph. Most of the time we lose the ball in the air. Hit the ball ... go find it. I should add - one time I hit with this club and found the ball 2 holes to my right 300 yards up. I still had 350 to the hole. Yes I did par the hole. If you slice this thing... you're gonna pay for it for sure.
Might be true. But there's some self fulfilling prophecy in there. There's always some bias when you know what you're dealing with. Blind test needed. And also, people adapt, so my guess would be that you would do pretty good with a lighter shaft if you used it more. For my two cents, bend profile is most critical. It has to bend enough to feel a slight kicking sensation, and that in a way that the club is delivered in the right angle. For driver, launch angle is critical, if too low, a low kick shaft might help (if you are not into buying a new head). And vice versa. Overall swingweight determines, if you feel comfortable accelerating the club. You have to feel some weight "resistance", but not so much that your muscles can't keep up. Beautiful swing, by the way.
Many thanks. You say people adapt and they will do so if they have to, however the idea of fitting is to not need to adapt to make the club work. Bend profile makes a small difference to launch and spin and certainly to feel which can help confidence in the club. All elements have a relevance and influence the end result but the wrong weight and balance point will make the biggest difference to getting a consistent result.
There are plenty at that weight from many brands. Lots of options for balance point and feel differences to be able to dial in timing if that weight works for you (I hope I interpreted the question correctly?)
I’m playing 130g iron shafts. Any suggestion for starting point for driver /fairway woods? I play 65 tx in driver and 75 tx in 3 wood. Thinking I could drop it into plane easier with an 80g shaft in driver.
Sadly I cannot give you a definite reply as it changes with every player. Top tour players play from 58g through 80g in Driver but depending on the player it could be very different. Sorry I cannot help remotely on this one!
I am 6ft build, quite athletic and i am using a KBS shaft 102g in my irons and I do tend to pull shots like you displayed with the lighter shaft. This is interesting ! I am in need of heavier shafts potentially as i struggle to control with my club head speed being 95+
Sounds likely, however it could also be balance point as the KBS shafts are not overly tip balanced. If you can get somewhere to test out the options then you will be able to dial in to the best option
What about 88 mph swing speed? I would imagine that I would not want to go past mid weight? Getting older also and want to avoid injury and early exhaustion in an 18 hole round. But yes, i do tend to miss left and balloon shots with a 50 gram shaft. I don't have any reputable fitters like yourself around me, or at least none that are willing to help someone like myself. Im on my own in nearly every aspect.
People don't understand physics. When you swing a weight in a circle, the weight of the object matters far more than secondary things like material composition of torsion. What happened is that somehow manufacturers starting pushing some crappy shaft marketing to get more sales and people (who, again, don't understand physics) thought they were being clever.
My new irons are stiff, and I’m getting a lot of shots going right. However, on certain days they may go left. And I think my swing does change. After learning about weight, is the tempo or strength of how you handle weight what matters? And getting used to one , adapting to the club is not a good thing? It seems to get more complex the more I think about it. But I’ve only been into golf for a year and could take a few more years for it to really take any notice of its effect
Hi Kevin. How you move the weight and how it synchronises with your movement patterns is the real key - the two should compliment one another and whilst swing technique will dictate shot patterns the consistency of these and the consistency of strike is aided by the club. If you are having to change your swing to find timing and solid contact then there are likely to be elements of the fitting that have not gone to plan and best to get checked out
I think this Is totally correct as soon as I get a shaft that’s to light my swing feels all over the place . If I go from regular to stiff with the same weight there is very little difference.
Interesting topic, shaft weight! To prove your point you switched to a lighter and a heavier shaft weight with the same club head. But should you have remeasured the swing weight and adjust it accordingly to your original clubs' swing weight? So the feel of the club is the same during the swing.
When you change shaft weight a by-product is that swingweight changes too - just matching the swingweight would not have made them feel the same to swing and the purpose of the test was to show what solely changing that one parameter does. To match swingweight we would have had to change head weight so two parameters would have been altered, which would have then meant any performance change might not have been directly attributed to the change in shaft weight.
Is there a correlation between weight of a shaft and its torque rating that affects the swing? I had a fitting at Club Champion and I went from a 85 Gramm Nippon 850 Pro shaft in regular flex to a Accura 50 gram graphite shaft. I cannot feel anything with this light shaft and it did nothing to increase my distance.
A heavier shaft usually has lower torque value but this will not affect the swing. The weight will affect your timing and strike as well as feel for the club so the lighter weight, if too light, will lose you feel for the club which in turn gives you nothing to build speed with so can reduce speed too
I keep getting spec of 100 to 110 in Reg as my shaft fitting but every time I hit them fat or left. I now have C Taper 120 in stiff... Spin is very low but height and distance is fine - however am struggling with hooks / fats on 4 & 5 irons.... I like heavy feeling overall not just at head..... Any thoughts?
Yes, thank you. Very enlightening, all your videos. You have opened my eyes to how poor my last two fittings (Irons/driver) really were. Big Box store with fancy bays just pushing equipment. Sad thing is you pay for these bad fittings in $$ and ill fitting equipment.
I guess it is dependent on the individual. I had some 105 gram shafts in irons and I had an inkling that they weren't a perfect fit. Put 120's in and immediately I knew they were keepers. Same with driver shaft. 50g too light and 70 perfect for me. Great video.
bought 2nd hand set of irons with KBS stiff having tried one But i had tried 105g and bought 120g not thinking there could be to weights called stiff! Hit em straight low but short! At least ive now got something to blame! Im old but strong think i must muscle it through impact
Excellent! Learned something new, getting fitted in a couple weeks this info will be useful.. why does it seem like all the really good golf instructions and technical information is coming from UK, Europe guys?
Great video. I have a question. When you say weight of the shaft are say swing weight of the entire club (swing weight) or weight of the shaft? For instance, if I have a shaft that is 2 inches shorter it would play stiffer but the shaft itself would weight less just because there’s less material.
This is the base weight of the shaft. By shortening the shaft 2 inches if off the butt end then flex will not change much but swingweight will drop by 10 points or more and shaft weight would only go down 5g of so. The shaft would feel stiffer due to the swingweight dropping and getting less feel for the head. Getting it right for a player is a case of using the dead weight to keep the body and coin moving together and the swingweight to time the release.
Simon, quick question. I have a Cobra Radspeed 5-wood with the stock shaft (55-gm; R-flex) and that club is “money”. I never worry about it going left/right, if it does it is “operator-error”. I know that you can’t fit me into the correct weight, however, could you recommend a good starting weight shaft to evaluate as I go into a fitting for a new set of irons, BallPark to begin would be fabulous. Thanks for a great video
Light shafts in irons are completely worthless for me. I prefer med weight steel with a fair amount of flex. When I go light I can’t make solid contact.
I discovered this first hand. I randomly bought some Mavrik irons with 95 gram steel (and loved them). Like an idiot I had some 85 gram graphites loaded up and I could barely hit the ball. Thankfully I only reshafted 2 of my clubs, one of which was the same head from a demo club, the other sadly was my original 8 iron. I was luckily able to find the same club with the same shaft and I am back to striking it well. If you have some irons you can hit well, do not switch them out if you are a mid to high handicap, absolutely not worth it if you are striking them well.
My current clubs are mostly cheap and lighter in weight...,$500 for the whole set when I bought them about a dozen years ago. I finally started using them a lot this year. I clearly notice the difference in weight between those irons....and new Cleveland wedges I recently bought. Once I can afford new irons, I'm sure I will see a nice difference. In the meantime, they're good clubs to learn the game with.
Concise , informative and well presented 👍. I counter balance my putter , my wedges are the same s/w as my irons which are reg r300’s but i also game a 5i tmb which is an s300 . I have for some time felt more connected with this club , it gaps well in my bag and i dont hit the standard ap2 any shorter or longer but i can hook the ap2 5 i, ive often wondered if its the weight difference hence this visit . Im going to investigate further 👍
Good for irons , but the driver needs more speed? You can retrain your body to adjust for the lighter weights? I have found that lighter with good flex = more distance?
Why would you retrain to suit the club, it should always be the other way round otherwise you just compromise your timing in another part of the bag. Too light means you cannot build speed naturally and lose timing therefore you have to back off to regain control
very nice test on different in weight I was fitted for MMT105s (105g) but can only foind 105TX (113g)in stock, so I bought 105tx and works fine with it. After your video, I am start to wonder if I should change my gripp weight to 10g less to offset the heavier weight in shaft. Any thoughts?
Definitely do not compensate with grip weight as you will just make the swingweight heavier by doing so - 10g grip change will be a good 2 swingweight point change so each part of the club (head, shaft and grip) must be treated individually when assessing the weight and balance of the club rather than as a collective.
I fitted myself in to set cobra forge tec irons. Using a 7 iron with s - taper 120 . 8 to 4 works . Yards Spot on . A little longer than my i210 I had but that's the loft. But 9 and even more so the wedge I am struggling with. They feel heavier and I struggle to feel the head and have lost distance with them. Is that normal in a set of forge tec iron to be heavier in the short irons.
There is a minimum effective weight just as there is a maximum effective weight. Go too light and there is not enough mass to build speed with and you lose control and strike and will not hit many fairways! Swingweight can never compensate for too much or too little shaft weight and there is an optimum weight for everyone. Lighter in theory might mean more speed but in practice it can reduce it because the club does not stay in plane and therefore the swing loses efficiency
This video is absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. I am playing regular 85g steel irons for 3 years now and i finally understand why all my balls tend to go left (and very high).
Interesting I ran into this video. With the newer drivers they are coming with very light shafts. My Ping G400 has a stock 55 gram shaft stiff. Everything goes left I just can’t feel the shaft weight.😮My pryer driver The Ping G400 had an after market 65 gram shaft. I hit it so much more consistent. I am going to try a heavier shaft first before I go from Stiff to and R flex.
Static weight is general connection between you and the club, swingweight is balance point in the club and more about fade control through impact. How you move the club and develop speed dictates where you need the weight and how much time of it which in turn allows you to stay balanced in the swing and reduces compensation
It means the balance point in the shaft is not in the tip end and more in the middle making them swing lighter than one with a balance point nearer the head
Absolutely the best explanation I have seen of this. I have seen another more recent demonstration of the same issue by a well respected fitter using three driver shafts with the same weight but different flexes (X, S and R/S) and three shafts with different weights (50, 60 and 70) but the same stiff flex. They also put top priority on weight rather than flex. But the test focused on launch monitor data plus the location of the strike on the face. They discussed how it felt, and the tester mentioned how he felt the differences affected his backswing, and also the dispersion. But they did not deal with or explain the key biomechanics point that Simon makes so clear and simple of being able to simply move the club around him in balance, without having to make more or less effort or hand adjustments, Kudos and thanks.
Absolute pleasure and glad you are still enjoying the content!
Wow... Great video. Thank you!
Thanks for watching
Great video. Absolutely fact. I started golf with the latest technology which consisted of steel driver shafts and persimmon heads. Today my driver has a 45 gram graphite shaft. I just can't swing a heavy club anymore.
Many thanks. I remember those days as a junior starting with persimmon woods with steel shafts too - taught you to find the middle of the club!! You’re spot on about the weight though as it is a case of physically being able to move the club at speed and retain balance and control or not being able to no matter what other characteristics the shaft has.
Wow. In all my years of buying clubs I never once heard any club fitter tell me this but it makes perfect sense. very well done sir. Very well done.
Thanks for watching A1sauce
Not sure why I haven’t seen this video before ,,, It has irritated me that fitters check what shaft you are playing with and recommend something similar. One fitter said def light graphite and I was making 3 inch divots behind the ball. Sold the clubs in 2 weeks. Lately, went for a fitting and told the fitter let’s star heavy and work down - eureka 120gms. Superb tempo and getting great ball descent.
Yes. The difference can be drastic. Added 25 yards to my 8 iron carry distance. Heavier shaft and heavier swing weight. Interestingly with driver I use a light very stiff flex with a heavy swing weight.
@@nicholasdemetriades9154I had some silly strong loft clubs regular stiffness with 80 grams. Changed to Titleist blades 3-4 degree weaker lofts with 130 gram shafts. Hit the ball even further with the weaker lofts and a proper shaft
It’s not just swing weight by itself. It’s swing weight, puring, cpm/fm. All equally important when it comes to club fitting
Hmmm, so my progressive weighted AMT Black shafts could be the cause of my erratic dispersion throughout the iron set?
Almost all iron shafts progress weight through the set however the AMT do progress weight much more aggressively. Whilst the principle seems good in practice they can get too light in long irons or too heavy in short irons and that can make consistent timing hard to achieve through the set
Great video 👍 really interesting 👍
How can someone talk about shaft weight without bringing into consideration "swing weight"?
Hi Jay. This particular video was about shaft weight which goes before swing weight in the fitting process. The 2 go hand in hand in that order. You are absolutely right though, swingweight is of paramount importance to ensure the optimal shaft weight swings correctly. Please also see our video about swingweight
ruclips.net/video/70t11l6Nm64/видео.html
When I used a heavier shaft I feel like I fat a lot of shots
The heavier weight will tend to do this for certain
never take golf advice from a dude in jean
We completely agree! Simon doesn’t wear jeans to work. Note the side pockets 😎
This is an eye opener- never seen such a good explanation of the impact of shaft weight. You’ve gained a new subscriber!
Welcome aboard!
This has to be one of the best videos Ive ever watched and have explained. Ive been doing a ton of shaft research lately because I am buying direct to consumer club heads soon.
Thanks so much Shane. Glad you enjoyed it.
This definitely gives me incentive to want to get fitted properly, not just for weight, but length as well. Thank you!!
Hi Eric. You’re very welcome. 👍🏻
Thank you for an excellent vid and I 110% agree with your statement that "shaft weight is KING".
I realised years ago that I have a weight "sweet spot" that works with my swing mechanics that allows me to deliver a square clubface. Anything heavier or lighter throws off my timing and screws up my clubface delivery. As Ian Fraser of TXG puts it "the shaft is a timing device".
But there can be another factor at work here and that is our reaction to what a "Fitter tells us" about a particular shaft or club. I am VERY autosuggestive and I will react to what the fitter says about a shaft/club. So I prefer a Fitting where the fitter doesn't influence me and doesn't tell me anything about what I am being handed and just lets me react to what I feel
That way my brain reacts purely to how the shaft feels rather than what I have been told that it should feel.
Glad you enjoyed the video. Ian and Simon are very aligned with their views on shafts.
Great that you know how you react to things and critical for a fitter to know this info at the start so they can tailor the indignation provided to get the best results for you from the session
@@Precision_Golf 👍👍
What is your sweet spot weight? I like 60-70 I did 40grams but sprayville 😢
@@zarlodious1 Unfortunately, due to health issues I am now an ex-golfer.
When I was in my 40s-50s my sweet spot was 60 grams, but as I aged I found that going down to 55 grams really helped my timing.
Great video, excellent presentation, and I 100% agree that shaft weight is so often overlooked whilst the focus is on rigidity of flex.
Thanks so much for your kind words Andrew and also for watching our content.
Great video. The so called ‘experts’ at my local Golf Shop were telling me to focus on flex, but I kept insisting that shaft weight effected my shots much more. Needless to say, I didn’t buy from them.
Thanks for your comment. Clubfitting is a “professional” profession taking years for experience to be proficient. Sadly that’s advice from someone who doesn’t understand the first principles of club fitting.
OMG. I got fitted for new irons a few months ago and went from 115g (stiff) shaft to 95g (reg) shaft per the recommendation from the fitter. Immediately I was missing LEFT and just couldn't find any consistency! Thought it was due to the flex and went back to my old clubs and immediately started hitting better. This video is literally that "aha!" moment. THANK YOU!!
Glad to be of service!
This is why I am afraid to go to a fitter. IF the person is not knowledgeable it's very difficult for the buyer/golfer. One time I went to buy & get fitted for irons and I was also hitting all left. The guy had no clue what he was doing. He just kept changing different clubs/shafts. At the end, I had to return the mizunos I bought with his recommended shaft and I didn't play well with those at all, and ended up buying p790s off the shelf and I am hitting em great.
Hmm... I switched from 130g steel to 89g graphite and I had it sorted out within a few days of swinging at home and I now much prefer the graphite. But to go from steel to graphite in a fitting would have been impossible. I do agree weight is more likely what's causing most of the issues in a fitting rather than flex though.
Great video. I'm a senior golfer. I've been struggling with heavy shafted wedges. I can't square the club face. Now I know why.
Glad it was helpful!
Now I can understand why my iron club face closes too much when I attempt to generate more speed through impact.
Glad it’s helped!
I really appreciate this technical and logical explanation.
Thank you!
My mistake, I think my comment was for another video regarding Caitlyn Clark and the WNBA. I appreciate your video on the weight of a shaft. Very informative.
Not sure we follow?
I sometimes FEEL like with a heavier shaft, i attack the ball a little more from the inside. Ive tried the dynamic gold x100, and tried the 120g version x100....with the normal version more of a draw is present, and having seen this video, it makes sense as to why
That certainly would make sense James.
Excellent video. Over the last few years (with the benefit of fitting from Precision), my iron shafts have got heavier and my driver shaft slightly lighter!
We love helping you with your game Justin. Roll on 2023!
Great explanation. I am seeing recorded in slowmo shaft droop with TT mid 100. When the shaft in parallel to the ground before hitting and the ball goes to the right. Can it also impact club head speed?
It will affect timing so in most cases it will have some effect on club speed
Super video Simon, wonderful insight!! Keep them coming guys!
I recently purchased new irons, I went from 120g (steel) to 95g (graphite) shafts. I did this because i liked the irons and they were in my price range. (I'm not in a place to pay for the custom irons that come with a fitting) Can I experiment with lead tape on the shaft to increase the weight of my new irons?
I would not advise trying to change the weight by much as the lead tape will probably come off so unless you were attempting a real fine tune it will be hard to make too much of a difference without needing to re-apply it fairly regularly
I was fitted for 110 gram steelfiber in irons...any idea what my fairway woods and hybrids should be...I play 6x velocore tr in driver. thnx
Hi Derek. Sadly completely guesswork. I play Steelfibre CW i110S in irons, Ventus Blue 5S in Driver, Devotion 7 HB in FWs and GD DI 85S in Hyb but you could need something completely different. It’s about speed/load/feel/flight preference, everyone is unique. James
. I just watched a long video of a driver fitting for a middle aged bloke 12 handicap. Removing the weight off the driver head had significant improvements in club speed and distance hit. Same shaft .
Absolutely, it can work for some players and not for others so always test before changing your gamer club!
I swear on this.. I used to swing a dynamic gold s300 which I think weighs around 130grms and my typical miss was right. I somehow got fitted with a 105grm shaft and I’m now pull hooking every other shot
Absolutely, there is a 25g difference which is pretty significant
Great explanation and thank you. Now I know why my lighter weight shaft mizuno blades would always go left no matter what I did. Back to DGSs300 and all was back to normal
Glad you got back to a shaft that works!
Thank you for this video! I really like your wording where you talk about you overpowering the club cuz that's exactly what I feel with my current clubs. That is a great way to think of it in terms of even trying to fit myself which I will go to a professional fitter as well but even just understanding when I'm overpowering a club versus if it's overpowering me. Great concept thank you
Really glad it was useful and thanks for watching!
Good job! Can your next vid go in depth as to where the weight should be on the shaft? Example Tip, mid, or handle
We will endeavour to do this!
by the way, I'll be in London in mid Aug's, and chance I could pop in, you in sussex, like an hour away?
Hi. We’re in Surrey. Please do call in advance as we operate by appointment. Many thanks
In my case, of relatively slow speed of swing ~92 m/h, the weight of the shaft doesn't make any difference. I swing all shaft weights with the approximately same speed and achieve the same distance. It seams illogical but it is that what it is, I believe there must be a lot of some compensation involved. Actually I preferer heavier shafts that are much more consistent for me in the left , right distribution.
You do find players who “normalise” their timing no matter what they swing but there will be a weight which gives the best and most natural synchronisation which will minimise variables. Ultimately whatever feels most natural and simple is likely to be the best for you!
Hold up there....id like to see this "blind" and see results.
Could.be skewed based on your point you're trying to make!
Hi. We’ve been doing this blind in the studio for 20 years with every client throughout the bag. Weight matters 👍🏻
Nice video! I’m playing 125g and I think they are way too heavy for me my hips get stuck because I have to wait for the club to catch up so annoying
So happy we have made you appreciate it could be the weight of the shaft and not the flex; if you have any more questions please don’t hesitate to drop us a line! Happy New Year 🥳
Since the majority of golfers slice their driver, would you say that the majority of golfers have driver shafts that are too heavy?
That certainly used to be the case but it is changing. The majority of golfers have an out to in swing path so ultimately that is why a slice is the most common miss but long driver shafts do not help this either
Arent the heads, i.e irons pw-3, different weights, which would affect the path?
You are correct, however this video was focussed on the shaft in particular and his the weight of the shaft as opposed to the shaft flex has the bigger influence on shot pattern and consistency
Does swing speed make a difference? Or the strength of the player? Stronger does not always equal faster.
Strength invariably makes a difference and often reflected in swing speed after the fit; improved synergy of weight and golfer will make for more speed. 😊
fantastic vid, and FWIW i've noticed the same thing in my own swing. I don't swing very fast (i'm in my 50's, i'm an avid golfer, i'm about a 3 handicap, and my driver swing is around 100-102 mph). But the sweet spot weight of a driver shaft for me is about 60-65 grams. The ultralight shafts completely throw my timing off. I eventually deduced it, through trial and error (buying various shafts is somewhat easy nowadays with the ability to change them out and eBay). It convinced me to educate myself over these sorts of things rather than trust just any fitter. Of course there's no way i'd know as much as a great fitter, but how do you ever know if you've got a guy fitting you of that caliber? In any case, great vid, and i'm definitely a new subscriber!
Many thanks and greatly appreciated. Ultimately the only way to know is whether there is a logic to the progression through the fitting process that they can explain why they are testing with particular head and shaft combinations. As long as they can explain the options, what the characteristics are and why they are being used then that should stand you in good stead!
I used to fit clubs for Ping amd Callaway and build clubs like Miuras. My clubs are all MOI matched. Swingweight is a completely idiotic measure of club weight. No engineer would understand swingweight as a measurment. Weight and more importantly MOI is the most important part of fitting but sadly ots just not understood or set up to fot at scale.
You are correct, swingweight without any other context or being related to the components etc is just an arbitrary scale. MOI is a more scientific measure, however this cannot be matched through the set as the energy input by the player changes club to club so no scale is completely perfect. As long as the fitter understands what swingweight truly displays and how to apply it correctly during the fitting it can be utilised to good effect
Well the point of this video is to show that weight is important. You could have a shaft 30 grams lighter SW the same at the heavier one but the golfer will say they feel different. This is because SW doesn't relate to what the golfer feels. They feel MOI.
You say you can't match a set but my irons and wedges are matched exactly. Yes with woods, the length change is so large and the shafts weights so different that the target moi number is likely different. However, I have found that once you have a golfers target moi with a driver, if you make all other driver shaft combos measure that number, the player will in general say they like that feel.
I'm not saying it is easy to do or practical for masses but what I am saying is the measure for what golfers feel in a golf club/ swing is MOI. Not Swing weight, not dead weight (static weight).They feel MOI. So in the perfect world, golfers should understand that MOI is what they should measure if they want to understand what they like or what they feel.
I swing my driver at 98mph so fit between reg and stiff however I agree that weight has a bigger effect on flight. I like 60g but do play a 70g for lower flight in windy dry conditions. I tried a 50g but balloons in driver. The heavier weight is more stable for straighter shots.
It’s definitely a balance that an experienced fitter will find. The optimal weight window really is only a few grams.
@@Precision_Golf Definitely requires some trial and error and Ive found in driver that different shafts suit different heads regardless of weight. I do prefer a CB shaft too.
I have 50g in my fairway woods for more height and 120g in my irons for control.
Cheers from Oz..
I tend to hit the ball left to right with the 55 gram and get almost zero roll on my drives. I like the light weight but wonder if the 65 or 70 will help hit lower and get roll?
Good stuff! How about increasing shaft weight vs increasing head weight? I had an iron fitting elsewhere and in that I prefered swinging a heavier shaft (as the stock head weight was all that was offered), but wonder if a lighter shafter together with some lead on the head may have benefits
Both have merits depending on the player - some players benefit from having extra shaft weight to drive against in transition, others benefit from a heavier head on a lighter shaft. The more aggressive the move in principle the heavier shaft will be better, the head weight is more about helping to time the strike/hand action.
Would a good player compensate for the wrong weighted shaft?
They would have to but shouldn’t have to. The swing change to accommodate a particular club may very well impact on another part of the bag.
Interesting. I just bought some irons used for my brother and took them to the course to give them a try. My irons are Nippon 850 GH R (roughly 85 grams or so - maybe a bit less) and these new ones are TT Elevate 95 Stiff (95-ish grams). Same heads in both: PXG 0211 ST blades. I was expecting to need to muscle them a bit to square the face (my 7-iron speed is right around 78 mph), but they felt absolutely fine. In fact, my timing seemed better, especially with the longer irons.
I notice when you address the ball you have the club set up nowhere near the ball. Is their a reason you do this? I know a guy called moe Norman used to have the club way behind the ball. 👍
It is not a conscious thing - I can only assume I moved slightly further from the ball for strike (I’ve never suffered from shanks though) and now it is a bit of a swing trigger. Now Moe Norman really is a legend of ball striking!!
@@Precision_Golf I do the opposite because of shank's. I address the ball from the hosel knowing I shank because my hands go out. If they go out if I address the ball from the hosel I'll miss the ball! Thanks for the reply mate👍
Won’t a person adapt to the characteristics of the club?
Yes, but why adapt when you don’t need to by using a set up that compliments you? All you will do is make yourself less consistent as you are altering your natural patterns
@@Precision_Golf I so agree with this. Years ago I taught my friend to play golf and even starting as a 28 handicapper he was hitting baby draws off the tee. Long story short, I disappeared off the scene and years later when I caught up with him he said he'd changed and was now hitting a fade. What he was actually doing was starting his swing with his chest and coming over the top thus losing his draw. Because his "guru" wasn't there (me), and rather than see a pro and get it corrected, he changed his stance to compensate and now spends most of his time pushing his tee shots. It's awful to watch and has cost him 50 yards+ from the tee.
Compensating is the worst, you need to correct. Don't adapt, fix! When something is wrong, seek help from those who know. 🙂
So lets say you find the perfect weight, then how do you know what flex to use?
I got a shaft fitting last summer and then got some really good lessons that made me see the correct way to swing the club. I realize this was backwards to what I shoud have done but thats the way it turned out. I bought new irons which were different than what was recommended which we never even tested. But I feel the recommended clubs and shaft would have been no better with my new golf swing. So this spring when I can finally hit off some turf will be very interesting to see my ball flight. May have to get refitted. BTW the new irons are Mizuno 923 hm with 64 gram f3 recoil shafts.
Thanks for sharing. Hopefully the weather starts to improve soon so you can put some good practice in. If we can be of any help please don’t hesitate to drop the studio a call on 01932 977777
Funny how these crazy long distance drivers like Bryson Dechambeau use an A flex shaft. He claims it's an advantage. I guess he learned how to swing with it?
It is to do with the weight and with the dynamics they are putting in it allows them to develop more speed at the lighter weight. At the extreme loads they put in it can create impact dynamics that are impossible to recreate at lower speeds so there may be things they can achieve that mere mortals cannot!
It is to do with the weight and with the dynamics they are putting in it allows them to develop more speed at the lighter weight. At the extreme loads they put in it can create impact dynamics that are impossible to recreate at lower speeds so there may be things they can achieve that mere mortals cannot!
I think they just learned to use the club like a whip. A flexed shaft can store alot more kinetic energy. It's kinda like figuring out the point at which a whip cracks and breaks the sound barrier. Of course that is a loose analogy but that "crack" has to be the point of contact. A stiff shaft cannot concentrate energy like that to such a precise stage in it's range of motion. Deshambeau claims he has used clubs with a ladies flex successfully. I think with those factors you just have to throw conventional wisdom out the window and just build the muscle memory for the mechanics involved once you figure it out. These guy are not immortal, just cutting edge. They also use much larger grips. I'm sure that plays a role. @@Precision_Golf
I've never felt comfortable with a light shaft. Have no idea where the club head is. Unlike most of the golfing world in the past 30 years it seems I've never been after distance. I'm always looking for accuracy.
The right shaft can give both but as you say light is certainly not for everyone!
What’s the main difference between the DG 105 stiff and Nippon Modus 105 stiff. These were my top two performing shafts in my fitting. Not sure which one to go with. My two head options are either the Mizuno 245 or Wilson Dynapower forged. Thanks in advance.
The answer is not a lot. The DG105 is slightly more tip balanced and swings a touch heavier than the Modus 105 but both are good shafts.
@@Precision_Golf Thanks, one more question. Which of these shafts options are easier to counter balance (not sure if that’s the right terminology)? I got for +1inch in my irons. I’m worried this may make it harder to dial in the correct swing weight.
@@brianschultz7320 they are both tip balanced shafts so depending on grip size a heavier grip can help but that can also lead to issues. Ping heads are easiest to manage head weights depending what you have
@@Precision_Golf In my fitting, the ping i525 did not perform as well as the Mizuno Pro 245s and Wilson Dynaforged. I like how the Wilson’s felt but I know the heads run a bit heavy. That’s why I’m in this dilemma. Thank you for the insight though. This is my first fitting and I want to make sure I do it correctly.
Weight and swing weight is king, I usually swing around 113-120 something with my play driver and fitter assume I swing fast, so he gave me an X-Stiff flex and I absolutely hate the feel of the club and shaft, it's simply doesn't feel good or confidence building to me.
Stiff tip with huge heavy head makes me have a hard time closing and squaring the face.
I have smoother deliver but fast swing not the type that load the shaft in a traditional way.
I'm so used to do well with Stiff or even Regular flex shaft so I knew there are more to this than just gave a fast swinger a high kick X stiff shaft have a feel of swinging a metal pole.
So many fitters do not put in the customer's feel, preference and feedback, they can get too obsessed in the numbers and performance on paper and screen that if the club feels garbage or make you feel tired after testing them a short time then it's not the right combination.
You are absolutely spot on - you have to take into account HOW someone generates their speed and what feel they like and then you can tune it all together. The bad old ways of high speed needing a heavy x-stiff shaft should be behind us but sadly many fitters still go down this route.
Totally different to what was the accepted theory.
Absolutely. Whilst flex has a small impact on flight it directly influences feel much more than anything else
Combination of head weight and shaft weight ?
Yes, head weight affects club face consistency and control but in terms of what element of the shaft makes the most difference to overall shot patterns it is dead weight.
Do you have another video discussing the balance point of the shafts? Because when you refer to going lighter and heavier are you just specifically referring to overall weight? Because I'm assuming once you change the shaft weight that would significantly affect the swing weight correct? So in other words when you were swinging the 95 Grand one and it was sort of flipping and you were saying there's not enough wait to keep the timing correct aren't there several ways you can do that? I'm just trying to understand if someone has a high balance point or low balance point in the shaft and then the overall weight and that combination depending how the person wants to feel the club. Do you have another video describing that dynamic?
Hi Jacob and sorry for the delayed reply. We will be doing another video on the subject soon - a 10g shaft weight change does alter swingweight by roughly 1 point.
In this video I am talking about total weight change rather than swingweight specifically and that this rather than flex has the largest impact on your swing. Swingweight will affect how under control the club face is through impact and how consistent it can be but correct total weight determines general synchronisation between the player and club through the swing.
On the money. I was always a weight first,shaft flex second guy. I play off a 2. I have been fitted. I was always given a 65-75 gram driver shaft , stiff. my swing speed 103-106. my avg. carry 243. i just turned 60, on my birthday I bought a sim max2. 50 gram,stiff,ventus blue. carry now 260-269.swing speed avg106-108. so yea your numbers on the mark .shaft weight does trump flex. keep up the good work.
Thanks Billy!
I think this added more confusion than resolution. All 3 of these weighs seem heavy.
Is it because they are on Irons? For a DRIVER with carbon shaft, what would be the "typical" 3 weights?
You only mention feel as a criteria, could swing speed give us a clue / starting point of required weight? I swing (driver) 105mph.
What about swing weight. Historically it was normally around D2 (Driver). Nowadays it seems more like D5. Different shaft weights certainly change that. Is that what you are, by default, actually "matching" ? If so is there a typical average / Hi / Low range of swing weight for driver at say 105mph?
Schaun
The typical three driver shaft weights would be 55g, 65g and 75g however you cannot say what weight would work for a particular swing speed when it is strong at over 100mph - you have to match the weight to his someone moves therefore minimising compensation at impact and therefore improving consistency.
Shaft weight does change swingweight but that is not what is being matched but if forms part of what gives consistency. Low swingweight would be D0, high would be D5 but it is a wide window.
Ultimately the video was to show shaft flex does not affect performance as much as historically and regularly said, shaft weight is what dictates the majority of consistency of contact and shot dispersion.
I have a 72" driver shaft. It's hilarious to swing but it hits 450yrds at 160mph. Most of the time we lose the ball in the air. Hit the ball ... go find it. I should add - one time I hit with this club and found the ball 2 holes to my right 300 yards up. I still had 350 to the hole. Yes I did par the hole. If you slice this thing... you're gonna pay for it for sure.
I can imagine club face control is a little challenging in that length club!
Might be true. But there's some self fulfilling prophecy in there. There's always some bias when you know what you're dealing with. Blind test needed. And also, people adapt, so my guess would be that you would do pretty good with a lighter shaft if you used it more.
For my two cents, bend profile is most critical. It has to bend enough to feel a slight kicking sensation, and that in a way that the club is delivered in the right angle. For driver, launch angle is critical, if too low, a low kick shaft might help (if you are not into buying a new head). And vice versa.
Overall swingweight determines, if you feel comfortable accelerating the club. You have to feel some weight "resistance", but not so much that your muscles can't keep up.
Beautiful swing, by the way.
Many thanks. You say people adapt and they will do so if they have to, however the idea of fitting is to not need to adapt to make the club work. Bend profile makes a small difference to launch and spin and certainly to feel which can help confidence in the club.
All elements have a relevance and influence the end result but the wrong weight and balance point will make the biggest difference to getting a consistent result.
What about 66 gram graphite iron shafts??
There are plenty at that weight from many brands. Lots of options for balance point and feel differences to be able to dial in timing if that weight works for you (I hope I interpreted the question correctly?)
Thank you for this video! What a great explanation ….makes perfect sense now. Much appreciated and just became a subscriber!
Welcome aboard and thank you 👍🏻
I’m playing 130g iron shafts. Any suggestion for starting point for driver /fairway woods? I play 65 tx in driver and 75 tx in 3 wood. Thinking I could drop it into plane easier with an 80g shaft in driver.
Sadly I cannot give you a definite reply as it changes with every player. Top tour players play from 58g through 80g in Driver but depending on the player it could be very different. Sorry I cannot help remotely on this one!
Wow , the differences displayed by Simon were staggering , I never knew how important shaft weight was
It’s number 1 👍🏻
I am 6ft build, quite athletic and i am using a KBS shaft 102g in my irons and I do tend to pull shots like you displayed with the lighter shaft. This is interesting ! I am in need of heavier shafts potentially as i struggle to control with my club head speed being 95+
Sounds likely, however it could also be balance point as the KBS shafts are not overly tip balanced. If you can get somewhere to test out the options then you will be able to dial in to the best option
Fabulous video, Simon. Best to James.
Thanks Tim!
What about 88 mph swing speed? I would imagine that I would not want to go past mid weight? Getting older also and want to avoid injury and early exhaustion in an 18 hole round.
But yes, i do tend to miss left and balloon shots with a 50 gram shaft.
I don't have any reputable fitters like yourself around me, or at least none that are willing to help someone like myself. Im on my own in nearly every aspect.
It sadly is not as simple as what your swing speed is but if 50g seeks too light then take it up to 56g/58g as that should be a good compromise
People don't understand physics. When you swing a weight in a circle, the weight of the object matters far more than secondary things like material composition of torsion. What happened is that somehow manufacturers starting pushing some crappy shaft marketing to get more sales and people (who, again, don't understand physics) thought they were being clever.
Couldn’t agree more!
My new irons are stiff, and I’m getting a lot of shots going right. However, on certain days they may go left. And I think my swing does change. After learning about weight, is the tempo or strength of how you handle weight what matters? And getting used to one , adapting to the club is not a good thing? It seems to get more complex the more I think about it. But I’ve only been into golf for a year and could take a few more years for it to really take any notice of its effect
Hi Kevin. How you move the weight and how it synchronises with your movement patterns is the real key - the two should compliment one another and whilst swing technique will dictate shot patterns the consistency of these and the consistency of strike is aided by the club. If you are having to change your swing to find timing and solid contact then there are likely to be elements of the fitting that have not gone to plan and best to get checked out
I think this Is totally correct as soon as I get a shaft that’s to light my swing feels all over the place .
If I go from regular to stiff with the same weight there is very little difference.
Absolutely spot on - thank you for watching!
Interesting topic, shaft weight! To prove your point you switched to a lighter and a heavier shaft weight with the same club head. But should you have remeasured the swing weight and adjust it accordingly to your original clubs' swing weight? So the feel of the club is the same during the swing.
When you change shaft weight a by-product is that swingweight changes too - just matching the swingweight would not have made them feel the same to swing and the purpose of the test was to show what solely changing that one parameter does. To match swingweight we would have had to change head weight so two parameters would have been altered, which would have then meant any performance change might not have been directly attributed to the change in shaft weight.
Is there a correlation between weight of a shaft and its torque rating that affects the swing? I had a fitting at Club Champion and I went from a 85 Gramm Nippon 850 Pro shaft in regular flex to a Accura 50 gram graphite shaft. I cannot feel anything with this light shaft and it did nothing to increase my distance.
A heavier shaft usually has lower torque value but this will not affect the swing. The weight will affect your timing and strike as well as feel for the club so the lighter weight, if too light, will lose you feel for the club which in turn gives you nothing to build speed with so can reduce speed too
I keep getting spec of 100 to 110 in Reg as my shaft fitting but every time I hit them fat or left.
I now have C Taper 120 in stiff... Spin is very low but height and distance is fine - however am struggling with hooks / fats on 4 & 5 irons.... I like heavy feeling overall not just at head..... Any thoughts?
Very difficult to diagnose remotely, sounds like the long irons are a bit head heavy. Possibly a Modus 120 would be worth testing
Maybe that's why my tour edge 3 wood with the air speeder 40 shaft is my favorite club to hit. I never miss-hit with that club.
It is a light shaft but a good one
Yes, thank you. Very enlightening, all your videos. You have opened my eyes to how poor my last two fittings (Irons/driver) really were. Big Box store with fancy bays just pushing equipment. Sad thing is you pay for these bad fittings in $$ and ill fitting equipment.
Very true, but hope we can help get you on the right path. Glad you enjoyed the video
I guess it is dependent on the individual. I had some 105 gram shafts in irons and I had an inkling that they weren't a perfect fit. Put 120's in and immediately I knew they were keepers. Same with driver shaft. 50g too light and 70 perfect for me. Great video.
Thanks Wayne. Absolutely it is dependent on the individual and how they swing and move as to what suits best. Glad you found your set up!
bought 2nd hand set of irons with KBS stiff having tried one But i had tried 105g and bought 120g not thinking there could be to weights called stiff! Hit em straight low but short! At least ive now got something to blame! Im old but strong think i must muscle it through impact
It can be confusing!
Excellent! Learned something new, getting fitted in a couple weeks this info will be useful.. why does it seem like all the really good golf instructions and technical information is coming from UK, Europe guys?
I’ve got a great idea. Family holiday to London and a day trip to the suburbs to see us 👍🏻😂
Great video. I have a question. When you say weight of the shaft are say swing weight of the entire club (swing weight) or weight of the shaft? For instance, if I have a shaft that is 2 inches shorter it would play stiffer but the shaft itself would weight less just because there’s less material.
This is the base weight of the shaft. By shortening the shaft 2 inches if off the butt end then flex will not change much but swingweight will drop by 10 points or more and shaft weight would only go down 5g of so. The shaft would feel stiffer due to the swingweight dropping and getting less feel for the head. Getting it right for a player is a case of using the dead weight to keep the body and coin moving together and the swingweight to time the release.
Simon, quick question. I have a Cobra Radspeed 5-wood with the stock shaft (55-gm; R-flex) and that club is “money”. I never worry about it going left/right, if it does it is “operator-error”. I know that you can’t fit me into the correct weight, however, could you recommend a good starting weight shaft to evaluate as I go into a fitting for a new set of irons, BallPark to begin would be fabulous. Thanks for a great video
Hi Carl. Likely weight window will be 70g - 90g but graphite at the lower end and possibly steel at the higher end.
Light shafts in irons are completely worthless for me. I prefer med weight steel with a fair amount of flex. When I go light I can’t make solid contact.
Absolutely, it really is very player specific as to what works and why
Very very informative great video...
Thanks Phillip 👍🏻
Good video. After getting properly fit, I no longer just buy random clubs to "improve" my game.
Good stuff! Thanks for watching Dan
I discovered this first hand. I randomly bought some Mavrik irons with 95 gram steel (and loved them). Like an idiot I had some 85 gram graphites loaded up and I could barely hit the ball. Thankfully I only reshafted 2 of my clubs, one of which was the same head from a demo club, the other sadly was my original 8 iron. I was luckily able to find the same club with the same shaft and I am back to striking it well.
If you have some irons you can hit well, do not switch them out if you are a mid to high handicap, absolutely not worth it if you are striking them well.
Sadly it is normally the case that we find out the hard way! Glad you could rectify it
My current clubs are mostly cheap and lighter in weight...,$500 for the whole set when I bought them about a dozen years ago. I finally started using them a lot this year. I clearly notice the difference in weight between those irons....and new Cleveland wedges I recently bought. Once I can afford new irons, I'm sure I will see a nice difference. In the meantime, they're good clubs to learn the game with.
Absolutely and thank you for watching!
@Precision_Golf can I make these weight adjustments by adding lead tape to the head of the club?
Absolutely. 2g is worth one swingweight point
Concise , informative and well presented 👍.
I counter balance my putter , my wedges are the same s/w as my irons which are reg r300’s but i also game a 5i tmb which is an s300 . I have for some time felt more connected with this club , it gaps well in my bag and i dont hit the standard ap2 any shorter or longer but i can hook the ap2 5 i, ive often wondered if its the weight difference hence this visit .
Im going to investigate further 👍
Thank you - glad you liked it and I hope it helps with your game too
Good for irons , but the driver needs more speed? You can retrain your body to adjust for the lighter weights? I have found that lighter with good flex = more distance?
Why would you retrain to suit the club, it should always be the other way round otherwise you just compromise your timing in another part of the bag. Too light means you cannot build speed naturally and lose timing therefore you have to back off to regain control
very nice test on different in weight I was fitted for MMT105s (105g) but can only foind 105TX (113g)in stock, so I bought 105tx and works fine with it. After your video, I am start to wonder if I should change my gripp weight to 10g less to offset the heavier weight in shaft. Any thoughts?
Definitely do not compensate with grip weight as you will just make the swingweight heavier by doing so - 10g grip change will be a good 2 swingweight point change so each part of the club (head, shaft and grip) must be treated individually when assessing the weight and balance of the club rather than as a collective.
I fitted myself in to set cobra forge tec irons. Using a 7 iron with s - taper 120 . 8 to 4 works . Yards Spot on . A little longer than my i210 I had but that's the loft. But 9 and even more so the wedge I am struggling with. They feel heavier and I struggle to feel the head and have lost distance with them. Is that normal in a set of forge tec iron to be heavier in the short irons.
There is definitely an imbalance here. Sadly it’s guess work without the ability to forensically analyse but it could be swingweight related
why wouldn't the answer naturally be to make the shaft as light as possible, and adjust the feel of the club with the swing weight?
There is a minimum effective weight just as there is a maximum effective weight. Go too light and there is not enough mass to build speed with and you lose control and strike and will not hit many fairways! Swingweight can never compensate for too much or too little shaft weight and there is an optimum weight for everyone. Lighter in theory might mean more speed but in practice it can reduce it because the club does not stay in plane and therefore the swing loses efficiency
This video is absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. I am playing regular 85g steel irons for 3 years now and i finally understand why all my balls tend to go left (and very high).
Thanks for letting us know, glad it helped you figure stuff out. If we can be of further help just stay. James
Interesting I ran into this video. With the newer drivers they are coming with very light shafts. My Ping G400 has a stock 55 gram shaft stiff. Everything goes left I just can’t feel the shaft weight.😮My pryer driver The Ping G400 had an after market 65 gram shaft. I hit it so much more consistent.
I am going to try a heavier shaft first before I go from Stiff to and R flex.
Hi Pedro. Many thanks for your message and sharing your experience. We hope it works out for you.
How does static weight influence things vs. swingweight? For example a lighter shaft with more head weight vs. Standard head with heavier shaft.
Static weight is general connection between you and the club, swingweight is balance point in the club and more about fade control through impact. How you move the club and develop speed dictates where you need the weight and how much time of it which in turn allows you to stay balanced in the swing and reduces compensation
I cant reply to the last comment for some reason, but what does it mean when kbs shafts are not overly tip balanced?
It means the balance point in the shaft is not in the tip end and more in the middle making them swing lighter than one with a balance point nearer the head
Excellent discussion! By the way, what connector fitting system are you using? Is it All Fit? Thank you.
Thanks Don. We are currently using Club Connex
This probably explains why I tend to miss my irons left and my woods and driver right. My irons shafts are AMT reds.
Hope it’s helped a bit 🤞🏼👍🏼
I play xstiff or txstiff In irons but prefer lighter driver shaft. It is not about shaft weight it is more about preference and kick/bend profiles…
Glad you have found what works for you. Thanks for watching.
Very interesting thank you 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Very informative. Thank you for willingly to share such in-depth knowledge.
Glad it was helpful!