Captain: "I have poor WiFi2 signal strength.. wait it is getting better, now signal strength is excellent. Thank you for restoring my connection" ATC: "You are welcome"
Every time I see a video like this, I keep hoping to hear one of the pilots say “departure, when you’re ready to copy, I have a number for you to call, possible Controller deviation!”
My BIL is a captain & instructor for a large passenger airliner, he has requested a number that he could call because ATC did something unsafe and wanted to talk to them about it.
It's tough to judge without seeing a mode c altitude readout, they could have been separated by 1000ft+ vertically. TCAS RA's can trigger before minimum sep is lost. Also if they are both flying the RNAV DOCKR departure then their track should be the same and AAL wouldn't have been able to cut off ACA. In that case a speed restriction should be enough to prevent an overtake. Departure controller should have recognized it for sure, but someone wasn't flying the procedure.
You have to have standard separation before you can apply visual separation. I wish people would make a knowledgeable comment before making a dumb comment.
Not exactly. What he's doing is telling them that they are free to maneuver if they see a conflict with the other plane -- they won't be creating another problem if they have to turn, dive, etc.
I fly these departures out of LAX quite frequently, but still to this day, don't understand why ATC starts giving headings immediately after takeoff instead of the original "climb via" instructions originally given in the clearance. There was no need to do that with the Air Canada flight. Just more shit to make something fairly simple much harder.
I’m honestly appalled: why aren’t there SIDs that take care of the separation? This knitting of aircraft in the sky is totally unnecessary. Or, use RNAV waypoints and continue to use the RNAV waypoints!
Professionals don't do things normal people would do . That makes them distinguish from the norms . Just like lawyers , they use terms that can be easy to understand if speaking in plain , simple language . They use terms that make ordinary people look dumb .
There are SIDs that take care of it. I don't work at LAX I work departures off Atlanta. Controller caused this 100%. Probably trying to give Air Canada a shortcut with the initial 110 heading but forgot to climb them as well and both were leveling at 50'. Hence the stupidity that ensued.
😂, true. I once was cleared to taxi back to the ramp after exiting the runway, and I told ground, holding short, she then caught herself and then thanked me for not colliding with a United jet in my path.
@@nightwaves3203 They were both cleared to a GPS point after departure hence the heading change, but I'm not sure how they ended up on different tracks.
@@desertsaker196 ORCKA is radar vectors KLIPR to fly NE over the airport, DOTSS is usual RNAV to head east. ORCKA has a turn to 236 at DOCKR, DOTSS a turn to 220. Climb ACA a bit more before turning back and this is a non-issue, give direct PEVEE to AAL and it's probably a non-issue.
RA - "resolution advisory' by the automatic systems, pilots are trained to follow them and temporarily ignore AirTrafficController, had to look that up, good thing indeed.
Did you guys hear Air Canada mention the TCAS RA? As long as the pilots follow the guidance from the TCAS RA there won't be a collision. It is the last line of defense (and a good one) against mid airs.
I don’t think so. It looks like someone wasn’t flying the SID. They were both cleared the same RNAV departure so their flight paths should have been the same.
@@michaelconvery8871they had the same initial waypoint, but it’s shared by the ORCKA and DOTTS departures, which each was flying. I made a longer post explaining how the design of these departures and the interval at which these aircraft departed can cause this situation.
@@michaelconvery8871 DOCKR is a RNAV waypoint, not an SID - and this waypoint is about 2nm from the end of runway 25R. It is possible that the two aircraft had different assigned SIDs, as many of the SIDs out of KLAX 25R share this waypoint. However, considering that the U.S. commonly uses 'vector departures', it is possible that the aircraft were expecting vectors after crossing DOCKR, but the departure controller mis-timed / mis-coordinated these vectors.
@@55455817296312345678yes. They are RNAV SID’s. I see the error now looking at the plates. It looks like one was on the OSHNN1 and the other on the DOTSS 2. Interesting!!
I once had an experienced ATC in the sim (ATC sim) tell me “traffic in your six o’clock, report sighting.” I replied “you’re kidding aren’t ya?” Nope, he wasn’t!
I once had an ATC do that to me in real life. There was a TBM who had departed just behind me, blasting to the departure fix like it was the last thing he was gonna do. ATC gave me the six o’clock traffic advisory as I had just about made it there and I just said “Roger”. What I really wanted to say was “negative contact; dropping flares and breaking right”.
That's the most likely explanation. To add to this, it seems like the departure controller was relieved in the middle of this. So it's likely the controller going on break told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't. The relieving controller expected ACA to be leaving 5,000 before they would be an issue with American.
You're probably right, but where did both get their clearances to 5000'? DOTTS2 is initial climb 17000' with DOCKR AoB 3000', WEILR AoB 5000' and DOTTS MNM 15000'. ORCKA5 on the other hand is initial climb FL230 also with DOCKR AoB 3000' and KLIPR MNM 10000'. I don't hear any instruction to climb 5000' only for either of the flights. Did KUSA give them that?
The 17,000' is the top altitude of the SID. All clearances out of LAX are usually to: "Climb VIA except Maintain 5,000". Once you get handed over to Departure they will either give you clearance to a higher altitude or a CLIMB VIA Clearance which would then clear you the rest of the way to 17,000' in this case. @@organfreak1212
Departure at LAX does this all the time. SNA is even worse. Many times they give 10 headings and altitudes around the turn that match the original departure almost exactly. Why do this when they can just have a climb via the SID? Their workload is entirely brought on themselves. Also, non-standard comes abound here.
It all circles back to the training they receive. You're only as good as your instruction in the radar room. We have seen that standard progressively go down and down (DEI). Retired ATC LAX...so I know!
The controller forgot to climb Air Canada. Had AC been cleared to 12000 you wouldn’t be watching this. Instead, AC leveled at 5000, which is what AA was cleared to, causing the close call. Had AC been given the climb to 12000 on initial contact, as soon as they crossed American would have got the climb to 12000 too. Done correctly, this is a typical operation.
To add to this I believe this happened during a controller overlap so the first controller may have told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't
wasn't there a close call on the runway because of that? They thought the plane would take off and already cleared the next one, not realizing the first plane stopped on the runway. Luckily the pilots in the second plane noticed in time. Might have been a different airport, not sure
@@pilotbennycontroller here, thanks for reassuring me that it isn’t my imagination 😂 I’ve been convinced of this for months. Caught me out a few times!
OK. I am probably missing something here. Both aircraft where given RNAV to DOCKR and both cleared to climb 5000. After the transfer, Departure is keeping the clearance unchanged and restricts speed for AAL. I assume that the speed restriction is to keep them separated since they are on the same departure and cleared level. But we see that AAL is not following the same track the ACA was on before the 110 heading.
Both airplanes went to DOCKR as cleared. Their cleared routes diverge after that as they were on different departure procedures that both use DOCKR as the first RNAV fix but diverge after DOCKR. This was controller error, not pilot error.
The clock continues to count down toward the biggest disaster in aviation history. There have been more close calls and near disasters over the last year, I can’t recall how many, but this trend is not going to end well.
I think a lot of us wonder if this was DEI. Not saying it is, but if it is, there will be no followup. The DEI policy is more important than public safety with the current administration. @@ragheadand420roll
That was the controllers fault.... he gave Air Canada the 110 heading turn too soon. They are on the ORCKA departure which the controller gives vectors to the aircraft back over LAX with an eventual clearance on route to KEGGS. American right behind him was on his departure route which is basically a crosswind departure to the south with an eventual turn to the east south of long beach...... the Air Canada should have been allowed to fly west and gain altitude before that turn. Then the American would have been below and likely ahead of the Air Canada flight path
@@d_mcg DOCKR is basically right of the runway, if the American was on OSHNN1 or DOTTS2, the turn he does is part of the departure. For Air Canada, if he's on the ORCKA he has to continue on a 236 heading for vectors towards KEGGS
@@d_mcg "Don't disagree, but both planes were given instructions direct to DOCKR yet the trailing plane turned early and began to overtake." I do not believe the American jet turned early. The American was on the DOTSS2 RNAV and it appears they followed the route which is a turn left to WEILR after DOCKR which is just off the coastline. The controller screwed this up.
The nature of the ORCKA needing a vector while other aircraft are own nav is a setup for a near miss like this or worse. Yes, it’s on ATC here to maintain the separation, but I’d think it would be easier to deconflict the traffic by designing the separation into the departure procedures so that no ATC instruction is necessary, and no conflict can occur.
Aca began banking and maintained 5000 feet while AA continued climbing to 5000 on its current heading then were told to turn which was heading towards ACA. The controller forgot to tell ACA to climb at FL120 until much later
"Resolution Advisory" from the TCAS system - Traffic Collision and Avoidance System. Computer calculates a suggested course of action - climb - descend etc.
In simpler terms, when planes get too close their systems talk directly with each other so that one is ordered to descend and the other ascend, so they don't both make the same evasive maneuver right into each other. They told ATC that they received and followed an order from their plane to get away from the other plane, because that is the only time pilots should ignore anything ATC is saying and trust the plane, because at least once before a crash has resulted from ATC messing up and then accidentally telling both planes to do the same thing
You know it was pretty close when the Air Canada advises they got a R.A. from TCAS! Not sure what A.C. policy is, but the pilot didn’t seem too enthused about having to explain that! Some AC controller sitting in a room got all excited, I bet! But if I had another aircraft come so close to me that I got a R.A. I wouldn’t be too happy either!
The A220 has the 400hz hum on their radios? They don't..Another ripped video from smaller youtube channels, ya'll are great and I'm a big fan, but you should do better than this. There's a reason @avocadoflight hides keys in his audio..
Yes i fly these every week, the issue here depends on the ROC of the aircraft which we don't know right now. personally I get up and out ASAP if I can.. Too much going on sometimes
@@adamwatkins1150 Hello, ROC means Rate of Climb.. (and ROD = rate of descent). I will try and make it easy to understand for you 😊 If ATC is expecting a certain minimum (or maximum) rate of climb, and/or a particular speed and you climb or fly slower / faster or change it then the ATC computer can only predict what it sees at that time, it may not be wrong as such but, the also TCAS (Traffic or Collision avoidance system in the aircraft, another prediction engine) predicts potential collisions based on where you and the other traffic are and what you are doing and if you continue to do it. If it thinks there will be a collision it gives you avoiding action, (an RA or Resolution). It may be you are still turning, speeding up / slowing down or starting / reducing a climb etc. in which case the prediction is maybe premature but you still have to follow it. It only gives CL
It is just a matter of "when" the big collision happens. Everybody in the aviation industry knows it's coming. Especially the insurers. Last month in Tokyo was minor compared to two Super-Jumbos colliding. Last year saw a record number of near-collisions.
You're right. It's terrifying to think about two heavies colliding shortly after take-off, especially as there's usually suburbs and dense residential areas beneath the climb out /approach zones. Does seem bizarre to have two aircraft departing so close together and cleared to the same fix though - wouldn't it make sense to alternate the initial fix for such close departures? To be relying on assumed vertical separation seems very dicey.
Well, as a European, (English) all North Americans in the aviation world suffer from acute verbal diarrhoea. Is there any wonder that clearances are misheard or mis-spoken? You’ve only got yourselves to blame. (Thinks) “I must be quicker than the other guys”. Trying to be slicker than the rest. WRONG! Just think about it. That approach (ignore the pun), is wrong on so many levels. I was Royal Air Force Aircrew for 30 years, ergo I am qualified to comment; I suggest you all try to get across ‘The Pond’ and just listen to ATC Comms - especially London ATC, the major European ATCs - and learn how to speak with clarity and precision. Maybe then there won’t be fiascos and near misses like the above in NorCal airspace, or anywhere else. Fly safe Americans.
Thanks junior for your elitist comment. We invented air traffic control, the airplane and now that we own the English language, we shall speak as we please. Just be glad that we let you feel important even though a state like California produces more GDP than your little islands country. Also, that is SoCal, not NorCal.
A Resolution advisory from TCAS. Basically the system thinks there is a good chance of a mid air collision and the system will tell the pilots to take immediate action to avoid that.
TCAS resolution advisory. Equipment on the planes communicated with each other so that one plane was ordered to descend and the other to ascend regardless of any possible ATC mistake. They advised ATC that they received and followed that resolution advisory because that's the case when pilots are allowed to ignore ATC and listen to the plane
AAL345 was flying his route correctly, if you look at the chart. The two aircraft are on different departure routings, and both flew them correctly. The controller is solely responsible for turning ACA back into AAL without the necessary vertical separation.
@@TheWayOfJamesBandI think you’re wrong. Check again the initial climb of RNAV DOCKR on LAX SID pages. Whatever is your SID, you have to overfly DOCKR and then fly HDG 236, waiting for SoCal to clear you to another HDG or point. I took off from LAX to Paris yesterday, that’s how it works.
Sounds like the American Airlines aircraft didn't have enough spacing before taking off, which would be the towers fault, assuming times in the video haven't been trimmed.
They had plenty of space. The issue was the departure controller leaving Air Can at 5000 and forgetting to climb her to 12,000 while having American 345 climb to 5000
@@RLTtizMEAs I have imagined being a passenger: Close call happening. Captain: Bargh! F-- S--- D--- Ahhh! (Captain picks up intercom) ladies and gentlemen, it's a sunny day and we'll be at Atlanta in about two and half hours. You may unfasten your seatbelts. Enjoy your flight.
Can someone please explain why 345 turned left after departure? Why didn't they follow the path of the previous aircraft until receiving further instructions?
They are both cleared at take off : RNAV DOCKR. check LAX SID initial climb on 25R, RNAV DOCKR is overfly of DOCKR point then HDG 236, waiting for radar vectors from socal. Clearly AAL 345 didn’t follow what they have been cleared to . This heading 236 has to be flown Whatever is your departure point after.
@@franck7779 Negative sir. They are on two completely different SIDs that happen to use the same initial fix of DOCKR but different routes after that. Each airplane did exactly what they were supposed to. 100% ATC error here.
I would expect LAX will be reviewing this and take the necessary moves to see it does not happen again. Both pilots did exactly as directed. What we do not know is what the situation was in the IFR room,(TRACON), at that moment. Controllers have to learn to think quick as a bunny and make instant decisions based on the situation at tha moment. Now retired from moving Iron Birds, even with the new technology the job hasn't gotten any easier. It has gotten worse. Not eveyone is cut out for this job, especially at this level of a facility. Alway remember you can call or visit the facility to get explanations of procedures.
Seems like they are both on the OSHNN1 and ACA deviated away from it? I didnt hear any heading assignment for the ACA tho before the 110 heading call. Maybe it was missed in the ATC audio? The must've been assigned a heading or ATC wouldve been barking at them earlier.
arent we supposed to be at 250 knots max under the transition altitude or is there a different rule in the US ? Heard the controller say under 250 and aircraft was passing 1500 to 5000 feet. What is the transition altitude in LAX ?
Any departure effectively 'cutting the corner' on a bigger turn the previous departure is making will create a risk. Why don't they just say begin your turn at 2 miles out? If everyone begins their turns at roughly the same point this can't happen.
I had an approach controller give me a lower altitude than the MVA a week or so ago…. Once I was below the mva she came back on and told me to “climb immediately” interestingly enough the ATC audio was garbled when I went back and listened to the tape….
Is it just me or were both aircraft not give the same departure to DOCKR? Did the American deviate? The ACA turning should not have affected the AA continuing "straight" until given a new heading?
Does the TCAS issue commands independently of other aircraft's TCAS or does it work with their TCAS to avoid collision? I.e could both TCAS ever issue a command that results in both aircrafts coming together? Silly question but not a pilot here...
Great content, but you should include an overlay of the departing aircraft SIDs. This way we know turns done by either aircraft are part of the SID or pilots doing their own thing like the American possibly turning to a heading of 250 instead of increasing speed to 250. I understand a lot of SIDs are not to scale on charts though, so it may be a tall order.
"RA" = "Resolution Advisory" -- the TCAS system telling the pilots to change (or not change) their altitude, QUICKLY, because of another plane in conflict. Pilots are trained to follow TCAS instructions, no matter what the controller is telling them. In other words, there's immediate and real danger of a mid-air collision, and the TCAS systems in each plane are talking with each other to keep it from happening. Why did the controller have 782 make a left turn in front of a following plane that was already turning?
Thanks to the ATSAP program, that controller will not receive any remedial training and will continue to do a poor job the next day and likely throughout his career. There used to be severe consequences for rule violations, but not anymore.
Communication should have a backup text messaging system in place because of radio distortion and interruptions plus accent makes inefficient and unsafe navigation
The AC looked to be on the ORCHA where as AA on the DOTSS… ORCHA is a vectored departure and DOTSS is a CVS. Not sure why ATC allowed the American to takeoff that close to the Aircanada. The point of the ORCHA departure is to vector the planes in a 180, then direct NE over LAX….tower should have known that….
Imagine trying to connect to the inflight WiFi connection and suddenly you see 2 WiFi options
lmfaooooo
I almost spit my coffee out thank you
😬
Oh lord. 😂
Captain: "I have poor WiFi2 signal strength.. wait it is getting better, now signal strength is excellent. Thank you for restoring my connection"
ATC: "You are welcome"
Every time I see a video like this, I keep hoping to hear one of the pilots say “departure, when you’re ready to copy, I have a number for you to call, possible Controller deviation!”
😂 I had the same thought
@@Airman_Fu Me too
that has happened a few times here
My BIL is a captain & instructor for a large passenger airliner, he has requested a number that he could call because ATC did something unsafe and wanted to talk to them about it.
It's tough to judge without seeing a mode c altitude readout, they could have been separated by 1000ft+ vertically. TCAS RA's can trigger before minimum sep is lost. Also if they are both flying the RNAV DOCKR departure then their track should be the same and AAL wouldn't have been able to cut off ACA. In that case a speed restriction should be enough to prevent an overtake. Departure controller should have recognized it for sure, but someone wasn't flying the procedure.
Air Canada 782 is still waiting for their heading clarification...
Aren't we all.
090 ??? lol right !
ATC gave them a Direct To fix to fly, that cancels the heading assignment.
@@raphaelventura8465 Yes but that was only after she asked 3 times for the heading again.
@@ImpendingJoker at least one of those times she was stepped on. for the other ones, I suspect he was busy reacting to his almost causing a collision
“Maintain visual separation” is the get out jail free card for a controller
You have to have standard separation before you can apply visual separation. I wish people would make a knowledgeable comment before making a dumb comment.
It was a little late for that.
"Unable", back to jail
@@kjay5056 Uh . . .no. The controller is telling them to see and avoid other aircraft.
Not exactly. What he's doing is telling them that they are free to maneuver if they see a conflict with the other plane -- they won't be creating another problem if they have to turn, dive, etc.
Controllers have to put a dollar in the TCAS jar for that one.
They use it to buy drinks for everyone when the shift is over
Just a dollar? How about a dollar per soul on board both planes?
Try $1,000. That was too close!
@@bubbaoriley7864bingo
More like a hundred dollars in the TCAS for those two screw ups.
I fly these departures out of LAX quite frequently, but still to this day, don't understand why ATC starts giving headings immediately after takeoff instead of the original "climb via" instructions originally given in the clearance. There was no need to do that with the Air Canada flight. Just more shit to make something fairly simple much harder.
I’m honestly appalled: why aren’t there SIDs that take care of the separation? This knitting of aircraft in the sky is totally unnecessary. Or, use RNAV waypoints and continue to use the RNAV waypoints!
Professionals don't do things normal people would do . That makes them distinguish from the norms .
Just like lawyers , they use terms that can be easy to understand if speaking in plain , simple language .
They use terms that make ordinary people look dumb .
There are SIDs that take care of it. I don't work at LAX I work departures off Atlanta. Controller caused this 100%. Probably trying to give Air Canada a shortcut with the initial 110 heading but forgot to climb them as well and both were leveling at 50'. Hence the stupidity that ensued.
What’s an RA?
@@GRosa250. My best guess it’s a TCAS Resolution Advisory.
when do the controllers start getting a number to call
😂, true. I once was cleared to taxi back to the ramp after exiting the runway, and I told ground, holding short, she then caught herself and then thanked me for not colliding with a United jet in my path.
It was self critiquing. I'm sure the boss was well aware.
So true
Never. There’s no accountability with ATC. They’re federal employees who can’t be fired.
I can't count the number of times these D-bags have messed up and put my life at risk@@tigersfan14
Yup, lot of things the controller could have done to make that a complete non-issue.
Like stay home that day
Never heard tower or departure change them from runway headings. I'd either be fired or viral with all the what the F are you doings I'd use.
@@nightwaves3203 They were both cleared to a GPS point after departure hence the heading change, but I'm not sure how they ended up on different tracks.
@@desertsaker196 Yah I noticed airspeeds weren't included.
@@desertsaker196 ORCKA is radar vectors KLIPR to fly NE over the airport, DOTSS is usual RNAV to head east. ORCKA has a turn to 236 at DOCKR, DOTSS a turn to 220. Climb ACA a bit more before turning back and this is a non-issue, give direct PEVEE to AAL and it's probably a non-issue.
RA - "resolution advisory' by the automatic systems,
pilots are trained to follow them and temporarily ignore AirTrafficController,
had to look that up,
good thing indeed.
Man, thank you. No one thinks to tell us what an RA is...
Did you guys hear Air Canada mention the TCAS RA? As long as the pilots follow the guidance from the TCAS RA there won't be a collision. It is the last line of defense (and a good one) against mid airs.
That close is too close.
What they are doing is chewing out the controller -- and getting it RECORDED, in case of later need.
Pretty sure they're required to advise over the radio that they've had an RA.
@@BenJuan26 what is RA
Resolution Advisory - RA - onboard system coordinated evasive action - one plane climbing, one descending to gain sufficient vertical separation.
"Yeah I'm aware..." I messed up!
Solely caused by the departure controller
I don’t think so. It looks like someone wasn’t flying the SID. They were both cleared the same RNAV departure so their flight paths should have been the same.
Truth. He should have waited a minute longer for the first plane to get clear for spacing, before letting the second plane go.
@@michaelconvery8871they had the same initial waypoint, but it’s shared by the ORCKA and DOTTS departures, which each was flying. I made a longer post explaining how the design of these departures and the interval at which these aircraft departed can cause this situation.
@@michaelconvery8871 DOCKR is a RNAV waypoint, not an SID - and this waypoint is about 2nm from the end of runway 25R. It is possible that the two aircraft had different assigned SIDs, as many of the SIDs out of KLAX 25R share this waypoint.
However, considering that the U.S. commonly uses 'vector departures', it is possible that the aircraft were expecting vectors after crossing DOCKR, but the departure controller mis-timed / mis-coordinated these vectors.
@@55455817296312345678yes. They are RNAV SID’s. I see the error now looking at the plates. It looks like one was on the OSHNN1 and the other on the DOTSS 2. Interesting!!
I once had an experienced ATC in the sim (ATC sim) tell me “traffic in your six o’clock, report sighting.” I replied “you’re kidding aren’t ya?” Nope, he wasn’t!
lol
You have to use your rear view mirror.
@@michaelbrennan8294Just be careful when reaching out the windscreen to adjust it. And to wear your oxygen mask.
I once had an ATC do that to me in real life. There was a TBM who had departed just behind me, blasting to the departure fix like it was the last thing he was gonna do. ATC gave me the six o’clock traffic advisory as I had just about made it there and I just said “Roger”. What I really wanted to say was “negative contact; dropping flares and breaking right”.
yeh they are the worst…😂 especially if they look like a smoking flying telegraph pole and you are in Russian airspace.😢
The controller almost transitioned Air Canada and American into eachother.
Departure thought he had already cleared AC782 to 12,000 but he missed doing so. That’s why he assumed turning AA345 in that direction would be ok.
That's the most likely explanation. To add to this, it seems like the departure controller was relieved in the middle of this. So it's likely the controller going on break told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't. The relieving controller expected ACA to be leaving 5,000 before they would be an issue with American.
You're probably right, but where did both get their clearances to 5000'? DOTTS2 is initial climb 17000' with DOCKR AoB 3000', WEILR AoB 5000' and DOTTS MNM 15000'. ORCKA5 on the other hand is initial climb FL230 also with DOCKR AoB 3000' and KLIPR MNM 10000'. I don't hear any instruction to climb 5000' only for either of the flights. Did KUSA give them that?
@@organfreak1212 all departures off LAX are initial climb 5,000
The 17,000' is the top altitude of the SID. All clearances out of LAX are usually to: "Climb VIA except Maintain 5,000". Once you get handed over to Departure they will either give you clearance to a higher altitude or a CLIMB VIA Clearance which would then clear you the rest of the way to 17,000' in this case. @@organfreak1212
When you assume you run the risk of making an ass out of u & me-or at least getting into a serious mess.
So did the Air Canada pilots give ATC the number to call?!
Can you imagine what everyone was seeing from the airplanes? Wow 😮that was a butt clincher there. Thank God there wasn't a collision.
Most of them likely didn't' even notice. Those that did probably thought, well that's awfully close but it's LAX.
Nothing.
They were all watching their Vision Pros bro
@@Zico20 😆 🤣
WTF. OH MY LORD.
Departure at LAX does this all the time. SNA is even worse. Many times they give 10 headings and altitudes around the turn that match the original departure almost exactly. Why do this when they can just have a climb via the SID? Their workload is entirely brought on themselves.
Also, non-standard comes abound here.
Maybe to separate the traffic?
The ORCKA5 requires a vector back to KLIPR. The DOTSS does not.
@@rjdverbeek Well, some of it _is_ Canadian, so I guess that makes sense.
It all circles back to the training they receive. You're only as good as your instruction in the radar room. We have seen that standard progressively go down and down (DEI). Retired ATC LAX...so I know!
@@kjay5056 just say you’re racist. It’s shorter.
Whats the point of sids if you dont use them
Lmao
What's the point of question marks if you don't use them?
@@TheCOZ What's the point of your keyboard if you're just going post shit.
@@thesim1990 Aww, did someone not pass English class? Do you realize how dumb your statement was?
Air Canada is on a loop departure (look up the ORCKA SID off LAX) which relies on ATC issuing the turn back towards land
This discussion thread can be used as a FAA Training Aid.
The controller forgot to climb Air Canada. Had AC been cleared to 12000 you wouldn’t be watching this. Instead, AC leveled at 5000, which is what AA was cleared to, causing the close call. Had AC been given the climb to 12000 on initial contact, as soon as they crossed American would have got the climb to 12000 too. Done correctly, this is a typical operation.
To add to this I believe this happened during a controller overlap so the first controller may have told the relieving controller he issued the climb to Air Canada when he actually didn't
@@Jmjbs They should never allow controller switch during such a crucial leg of flight.
Tower is always so keen on rolling you before traffic ahead even lifts off at LAX, besides a nasty wake its not safe.
wasn't there a close call on the runway because of that? They thought the plane would take off and already cleared the next one, not realizing the first plane stopped on the runway. Luckily the pilots in the second plane noticed in time. Might have been a different airport, not sure
Radar controller here. He never climbed the Air Canada. That appears to be the error.
makes more sense to have the AIr Canada plane make a right turn, no?
Did AC delay their turn on the SID or did AA begin theirs too soon? And what happened to 5min entrail sep delay?
he also told AAA that ACA was turning to the Northwest???
220 pilot here - thing climbs slow af gonna be out climbed by the 321 not doubt
@@pilotbennycontroller here, thanks for reassuring me that it isn’t my imagination 😂 I’ve been convinced of this for months. Caught me out a few times!
Excellent work by Real ATC channel!
OK. I am probably missing something here. Both aircraft where given RNAV to DOCKR and both cleared to climb 5000. After the transfer, Departure is keeping the clearance unchanged and restricts speed for AAL. I assume that the speed restriction is to keep them separated since they are on the same departure and cleared level. But we see that AAL is not following the same track the ACA was on before the 110 heading.
Both airplanes went to DOCKR as cleared. Their cleared routes diverge after that as they were on different departure procedures that both use DOCKR as the first RNAV fix but diverge after DOCKR. This was controller error, not pilot error.
He didn't need to give a speed...all a/c below 10,000' have to maintain 250kts or less unless operationally needed.
Different departures, same first waypoint.
The clock continues to count down toward the biggest disaster in aviation history. There have been more close calls and near disasters over the last year, I can’t recall how many, but this trend is not going to end well.
I think the DEI initiative will lead to many deaths.
We just need more diversity and dei hires to make that happen Idiocracy is a documentary
I think a lot of us wonder if this was DEI. Not saying it is, but if it is, there will be no followup. The DEI policy is more important than public safety with the current administration. @@ragheadand420roll
Wheeeeeeee!✈️✈️✈️✈️✈️✈️✈️✈️
You never want to hear ATC say, "Oops, sorry, my bad."
I wonder what it felt like inside AA345 one second after ATC told the pilots "turn right immediately."
It probably felt like they were turning.
Turned them towards danger. Gutsy move MAV.
@@2whl4re To the right. Immediately. 😄
I suspect the TCAS would have sounding.
I wonder if they got those "OH CRAP!" Bars installed like on cars!
How come at 2:14 ACA782 said they had the AA insight, while they were ahead of the AA ?? Can someone explain this to me, please?
Tail gunner cam. 😉
that's funny!@@willer3399
Does this have anything to do with lowering ATC qualifications to almost nothing? I bet we see more of this.
You can hear the difference in voice afterwards
That was the controllers fault.... he gave Air Canada the 110 heading turn too soon. They are on the ORCKA departure which the controller gives vectors to the aircraft back over LAX with an eventual clearance on route to KEGGS. American right behind him was on his departure route which is basically a crosswind departure to the south with an eventual turn to the east south of long beach...... the Air Canada should have been allowed to fly west and gain altitude before that turn. Then the American would have been below and likely ahead of the Air Canada flight path
Don't disagree, but both planes were given instructions direct to DOCKR yet the trailing plane turned early and began to overtake.
@@d_mcg DOCKR is basically right of the runway, if the American was on OSHNN1 or DOTTS2, the turn he does is part of the departure. For Air Canada, if he's on the ORCKA he has to continue on a 236 heading for vectors towards KEGGS
@@d_mcg "Don't disagree, but both planes were given instructions direct to DOCKR yet the trailing plane turned early and began to overtake." I do not believe the American jet turned early. The American was on the DOTSS2 RNAV and it appears they followed the route which is a turn left to WEILR after DOCKR which is just off the coastline.
The controller screwed this up.
@@d_mcgthey both crossed dockr as instructed.
The nature of the ORCKA needing a vector while other aircraft are own nav is a setup for a near miss like this or worse. Yes, it’s on ATC here to maintain the separation, but I’d think it would be easier to deconflict the traffic by designing the separation into the departure procedures so that no ATC instruction is necessary, and no conflict can occur.
even with the same heading or altitude they still took off sometime apart, probably a minute. How come the AA caught up to AC?
Aca began banking and maintained 5000 feet while AA continued climbing to 5000 on its current heading then were told to turn which was heading towards ACA. The controller forgot to tell ACA to climb at FL120 until much later
What is a RA reported at 3:10?
"Resolution Advisory" from the TCAS system - Traffic Collision and Avoidance System. Computer calculates a suggested course of action - climb - descend etc.
In simpler terms, when planes get too close their systems talk directly with each other so that one is ordered to descend and the other ascend, so they don't both make the same evasive maneuver right into each other. They told ATC that they received and followed an order from their plane to get away from the other plane, because that is the only time pilots should ignore anything ATC is saying and trust the plane, because at least once before a crash has resulted from ATC messing up and then accidentally telling both planes to do the same thing
You know it was pretty close when the Air Canada advises they got a R.A. from TCAS! Not sure what A.C. policy is, but the pilot didn’t seem too enthused about having to explain that! Some AC controller sitting in a room got all excited, I bet! But if I had another aircraft come so close to me that I got a R.A. I wouldn’t be too happy either!
Sorry what is a RA?
@@randymcmeekin1955 TCAS Traffic Collision Avoidance System R.A. Resolution Advisory
TCAS didn't go on?
Not a pilot, but looks like ATC was totally at fault over that! Does ATC get a phone number to call?
It's done automatically. There is a snitch patch which will alert someone higher up that there was a possible "deal" that occurred.
Give that controller a number to call…
The A220 has the 400hz hum on their radios? They don't..Another ripped video from smaller youtube channels, ya'll are great and I'm a big fan, but you should do better than this. There's a reason @avocadoflight hides keys in his audio..
RIP
Yes i fly these every week, the issue here depends on the ROC of the aircraft which we don't know right now. personally I get up and out ASAP if I can.. Too much going on sometimes
What does ROC mean, and what does PV mean?
@@adamwatkins1150 Hello, ROC means Rate of Climb.. (and ROD = rate of descent). I will try and make it easy to understand for you 😊 If ATC is expecting a certain minimum (or maximum) rate of climb, and/or a particular speed and you climb or fly slower / faster or change it then the ATC computer can only predict what it sees at that time, it may not be wrong as such but, the also TCAS (Traffic or Collision avoidance system in the aircraft, another prediction engine) predicts potential collisions based on where you and the other traffic are and what you are doing and if you continue to do it. If it thinks there will be a collision it gives you avoiding action, (an RA or Resolution). It may be you are still turning, speeding up / slowing down or starting / reducing a climb etc. in which case the prediction is maybe premature but you still have to follow it. It only gives CL
It is just a matter of "when" the big collision happens. Everybody in the aviation industry knows it's coming. Especially the insurers. Last month in Tokyo was minor compared to two Super-Jumbos colliding. Last year saw a record number of near-collisions.
You're right. It's terrifying to think about two heavies colliding shortly after take-off, especially as there's usually suburbs and dense residential areas beneath the climb out /approach zones. Does seem bizarre to have two aircraft departing so close together and cleared to the same fix though - wouldn't it make sense to alternate the initial fix for such close departures? To be relying on assumed vertical separation seems very dicey.
are "near collisions" recorded anywhere reliably?
Comments like this are so pointless. It’s like telling someone that it’s only a matter of time until they die. Duh.
@@marcellkovacs5452 It isn't pointless to criticize a process we know is going to lead to needless deaths.
3:10 Resolution advisory mentioned. This requires the crew to follow the automated advisory over ATC instructions if they conflict.
Well, as a European, (English) all North Americans in the aviation world suffer from acute verbal diarrhoea. Is there any wonder that clearances are misheard or mis-spoken?
You’ve only got yourselves to blame. (Thinks) “I must be quicker than the other guys”.
Trying to be slicker than the rest.
WRONG! Just think about it. That approach (ignore the pun), is wrong on so many levels.
I was Royal Air Force Aircrew for 30 years, ergo I am qualified to comment; I suggest you all try to get across ‘The Pond’ and just listen to ATC Comms - especially London ATC, the major European ATCs - and learn how to speak with clarity and precision.
Maybe then there won’t be fiascos and near misses like the above in NorCal airspace, or anywhere else. Fly safe Americans.
Thanks junior for your elitist comment. We invented air traffic control, the airplane and now that we own the English language, we shall speak as we please. Just be glad that we let you feel important even though a state like California produces more GDP than your little islands country. Also, that is SoCal, not NorCal.
All? Isn't that an over-generalization?
Oh behave - YEAH!
What a load of shit lol
@@meRyanP Ah, there you are, the typical erudite one.
For the uninitiated, what happened? Last call sounded like a collision, but I live nearby, I would have heard. What happened here?
What is an RA?
A Resolution advisory from TCAS. Basically the system thinks there is a good chance of a mid air collision and the system will tell the pilots to take immediate action to avoid that.
I think its Resolution Advisory
Resolution Advisory, the TCAS screaming at the pilot to descend or climb immediately to avoid a mid-air collision
@williamlilliott2433
You can actually hear a real quick piece of the automated "voice" alert in the cockpit background at the 2:07 mark.
@@pyme495I didn’t hear a thing
what's RA ?
TCAS resolution advisory. Equipment on the planes communicated with each other so that one plane was ordered to descend and the other to ascend regardless of any possible ATC mistake. They advised ATC that they received and followed that resolution advisory because that's the case when pilots are allowed to ignore ATC and listen to the plane
I always hear that no matter which runway is being assigned by ATC it goes “at the shoreline, turn right or contact socal departures”
Wtf is that route from 345? Did departure f up?
It sounded as if they weren't even with departure yet judging by the bit near the end about the new frequency.
I think they were still with the Tower
AAL345 was flying his route correctly, if you look at the chart. The two aircraft are on different departure routings, and both flew them correctly. The controller is solely responsible for turning ACA back into AAL without the necessary vertical separation.
@@Taladar2003 They got a new frequency at the end because this controller was removed from duty.
@@TheWayOfJamesBandI think you’re wrong. Check again the initial climb of RNAV DOCKR on LAX SID pages. Whatever is your SID, you have to overfly DOCKR and then fly HDG 236, waiting for SoCal to clear you to another HDG or point. I took off from LAX to Paris yesterday, that’s how it works.
Possible controller deviation, advise when ready to copy a number…
What’s an RA?
Resolution Advisory. Both aircraft's transponder generate coordinated indications to maintain a safe vertical separation between them.
@@miguelr1784 ah thank you sir!
Was this actually on January 30, 2024? I ask as FlightRadar24 app shows ACA782 was cancelled on that day.
It was on January 17
Exactly what TCAS and RA's are designed to do, good job all for avoiding actual disaster.
No
Sounds like the American Airlines aircraft didn't have enough spacing before taking off, which would be the towers fault, assuming times in the video haven't been trimmed.
They had plenty of space. The issue was the departure controller leaving Air Can at 5000 and forgetting to climb her to 12,000 while having American 345 climb to 5000
Where was AAL going? Seems like they shoulda been following right behind ACA.
My only question...But why, ATC?
F*ck - that was far too close for comfort.
ok, i got one problem here:
ACA782 was canceld on 30. Januar 2024...what date did this occur?
It was on January 17
@@StefanZacharias1 thanks :)
I'm not a pilot, but even I saw it was ATC's fault. And totally impressed at both pilots' keeping cool.
You only heard what they said over the radio.
@@RLTtizMEAs I have imagined being a passenger:
Close call happening. Captain: Bargh! F-- S--- D--- Ahhh! (Captain picks up intercom) ladies and gentlemen, it's a sunny day and we'll be at Atlanta in about two and half hours. You may unfasten your seatbelts. Enjoy your flight.
American saw AC the whole way. You would have had a different reaction had both been in the clouds and if they were head on.
@@decyattysyachpchyol delusional psychopath....sht
That is one weird way to have a traffic conflict. Someone in the tower is not paying attention.
Not his fault with the guy in the tower...it's the radar controller giving vectors and not alert enough to see what he did wrong
"...just to advise we had an RA there."
What's an RA?
@3:12
Can someone please explain why 345 turned left after departure? Why didn't they follow the path of the previous aircraft until receiving further instructions?
It seems they mistook the speed call for a heading. ground and aa both fucked up.
They were on different SIDs.
@thomasdemaeyer-gs2ql No, ACA782 was on the ORCKA5, which is why they were cleared to KEGGS afterward. They were on different SIDS.
They are both cleared at take off : RNAV DOCKR. check LAX SID initial climb on 25R, RNAV DOCKR is overfly of DOCKR point then HDG 236, waiting for radar vectors from socal. Clearly AAL 345 didn’t follow what they have been cleared to . This heading 236 has to be flown Whatever is your departure point after.
@@franck7779 Negative sir. They are on two completely different SIDs that happen to use the same initial fix of DOCKR but different routes after that. Each airplane did exactly what they were supposed to. 100% ATC error here.
I would expect LAX will be reviewing this and take the necessary moves to see it does not happen again. Both pilots did exactly as directed. What we do not know is what the situation was in the IFR room,(TRACON), at that moment. Controllers have to learn to think quick as a bunny and make instant decisions based on the situation at tha moment. Now retired from moving Iron Birds, even with the new technology the job hasn't gotten any easier. It has gotten worse. Not eveyone is cut out for this job, especially at this level of a facility. Alway remember you can call or visit the facility to get explanations of procedures.
Seems like they are both on the OSHNN1 and ACA deviated away from it? I didnt hear any heading assignment for the ACA tho before the 110 heading call. Maybe it was missed in the ATC audio? The must've been assigned a heading or ATC wouldve been barking at them earlier.
Nice work SoCal 🤦
I don’t like that the Orcka and Oshnn departures both share the same initial fix too. (Dockr or Hiipr depending on the runway)
arent we supposed to be at 250 knots max under the transition altitude or is there a different rule in the US ? Heard the controller say under 250 and aircraft was passing 1500 to 5000 feet. What is the transition altitude in LAX ?
250 till 10,000. Transition altitude in the USA is 18,000.
You can adjust your speed to 250 kts from slower just as well as faster.
Any departure effectively 'cutting the corner' on a bigger turn the previous departure is making will create a risk.
Why don't they just say begin your turn at 2 miles out? If everyone begins their turns at roughly the same point this can't happen.
ATC, I got a number for you to call, you ready to copy?
Why was the exclamation point added about turning immediately, the controller was calm with no change in his voice.
Different voices for departure at 1:03 and 1:15?
I had an approach controller give me a lower altitude than the MVA a week or so ago…. Once I was below the mva she came back on and told me to “climb immediately” interestingly enough the ATC audio was garbled when I went back and listened to the tape….
You need to put the altitudes on the video or else it's not clear how close these aircraft were vertically.
Is it just me or were both aircraft not give the same departure to DOCKR? Did the American deviate? The ACA turning should not have affected the AA continuing "straight" until given a new heading?
WTF was the controller doing? Turning both aircraft into each other like that was just plain stupid.
I got a number for the controller to write down...
why is this necessary? Why not just fly the SIDS in the flight plan?
Its because the ORCKA5 out of LAX has Radar vector instructions. After departure.
Does the TCAS issue commands independently of other aircraft's TCAS or does it work with their TCAS to avoid collision? I.e could both TCAS ever issue a command that results in both aircrafts coming together? Silly question but not a pilot here...
We’re missing comms. Who told American to turn inside Air Canada?
Great content, but you should include an overlay of the departing aircraft SIDs. This way we know turns done by either aircraft are part of the SID or pilots doing their own thing like the American possibly turning to a heading of 250 instead of increasing speed to 250. I understand a lot of SIDs are not to scale on charts though, so it may be a tall order.
"RA" = "Resolution Advisory" -- the TCAS system telling the pilots to change (or not change) their altitude, QUICKLY, because of another plane in conflict. Pilots are trained to follow TCAS instructions, no matter what the controller is telling them. In other words, there's immediate and real danger of a mid-air collision, and the TCAS systems in each plane are talking with each other to keep it from happening.
Why did the controller have 782 make a left turn in front of a following plane that was already turning?
You cant blame AC for that one!
Departure controller told Air Canada to turn left...that started the whole mess!
Why are they not flying the same departure? Both hat RNAV to DOCKR or did I miss something?
Two different SIDs that use the same initial fixes. ORCKA5 vs OSHNN1
Controller, what were you thinking ??
Literally "cutting corners".
Forget the near mid-air......ACA collided with AAL at the threshold!
Do pilots have a phone number they can give to the ATC?
Thanks to the ATSAP program, that controller will not receive any remedial training and will continue to do a poor job the next day and likely throughout his career. There used to be severe consequences for rule violations, but not anymore.
ATC - Air Tragic Control.
What does RA mean as said by the AC pilot.
Resolution Advisory in the Traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS)
It's the final warning of immediate danger of a midair collision
What is TCA? What is RA?
why didnt Air Canada hook a right after take off?
And he ought to be FIRED. FIRED.
What the hell was ATC thinking of!!!
What is a/an RA?
568ft vertical clearance is obviously nothing, but isn't 0.63 nm kinda far? Doesn't seem like a CLOSE CALL to me?
Communication should have a backup text messaging system in place because of radio distortion and interruptions plus accent makes inefficient and unsafe navigation
Date is wrong, should be January 17th.
The AC looked to be on the ORCHA where as AA on the DOTSS… ORCHA is a vectored departure and DOTSS is a CVS. Not sure why ATC allowed the American to takeoff that close to the Aircanada. The point of the ORCHA departure is to vector the planes in a 180, then direct NE over LAX….tower should have known that….
Its that headfing 110 and keeping them at the same altitude, he must not have seen the 2nd radar contact pr something given it was just taking off.
Yeah, I'm aware".
Actually, dim-dim, you're clearly NOT aware.
PS: you're fired.