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I have a question.Could you do a psychology video about detective Elliott?Stabler from law and order.I'm curious to see what could you do with a video like this
I think you're right about Rhaenyra. The fact that she now thinks she HAS to unleash more dragons in this war "to unite the realm" is actually very scary. I think it's very in the spirit of GRRM's work if the prophecy leads to her undoing. Good intentions can be just as corrupting as bad ones.
That is the core of Stannis' cause and equating Rhaenyra's cause to Stannis shows how bad the writers messed up in adapting the stories and how much they whitewashed Rhaenyra. The Dance of the Dragons was about human causes, two factions of the same family who failed to compromise and fought over power, tribalism and vengeance and another petty human desires. Not the good guys fighting for higher goal of defending the realm from doom and the evil scheemers fighting for power.
This is why, as someone who has read Fire & Blood, I’m alternately amused and frustrated by the people online who have taken this pro-green approach to the story and accuse the show of making Team Black the good guys. I think they are missing out on much of the nuances. This is not a good guys versus bad guys type of story. And before the end there should be enough atrocities on both sides to show that this story is a tragedy and there are no heroes here.
@@blackeyedlily no, they just made it a good guys (with one bad apple) vs bad guys (with one good apple that we haven't even seen because they considered cutting him from the show). They removed the moral ambiguity from the books by giving Rhaenyra's cause a higher prophetic goal of saving the realm from the White walkers in contrast to Hightower scheeming. They spent whole episodes lecturing us how Rhaenyra is the greatest thing that can happen to Westeros in contrast to how much of a monster Aegon is. This show also seems afraid to portray women having ambition and agency in an effort to whitewash them. It wouldn't kill the show that have an ambitious woman fighting for what she believes should be rightfully hers. Instead we have sanctimonious saints fighting for higher prophetic causes and people who only participated in coups because they misunderstood a dying man's words.
@@masterplokoon8803 do you not think those things you mentioned -- people fighting over delusions and misunderstandings -- make them bad people? Therefore not "saints"? I would say "they are all high on their own supply", which is hardly saintly and is actually fairly true to real life. Daenerys Targaryen basically did the same thing in Game of Thrones, too: decided her cause was righteous and therefore the ends justified the means, no matter how horrific. That didn't make her good at all -- in fact, the opposite. And that's the point.
@@danielwhitley4927 in this particular case I think it was pretty in character. With Aegon, Larys had direct power and was getting so close towards the top which is something he very clearly wants. Then for Aemond to belittle him and almost taunt him about not being chosen as his hand definitely set something off him. It’s not often that we see Larys’ personal life or goals be affected, but this is one a very few times we did.
@@danielwhitley4927I think Larys is a great actor. In real life, and in the show. I think it’s the beginning of a long term manipulation scheme. Larys can’t pull Aemond’s strings as easily. Maybe not at all.
I think Rhaenyra is panning out to be a Paul Atreides in that she is painted as the hero against the evil villains until the audience sees the consequences of her actions when she has power.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
I actually thought there were some parallels between ASOIAF and Dune. I kinda had my tin foil hat thoughts that the whole Aegon/Azor Ahai was similar to the Bene Gesserit and Paul/the deity they were trying to create - but might be just me haha
Anyone who feels morally justified in ALL of their choices (my way is the only right way) and lacks introspection or honest feedback from a trustworthy advisor (we all need a Davos Seaworth) will inevitably veer into becoming a monster. A big part of possessing a good moral compass is the awareness of your own fallibility, and the need to advice from a different, trustworthy perspective.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
I think what makes Alicent such a tragic character for me is that I've never doubted that she loves her children, personally, even Aegon who she is horrible to. I think her having her children so young along with being catapulted into the role of Queen and losing her friendship with Rhaenyra made her resentful of them. But she's always tried.
She did try, but when she did she was clearly emotionally distant. Could be postpartum issues that CAN stretch out for years after a birth, could be her father and how he raised her, or a mixture of both. But being emotionally distant doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. I like the little moments she had, this episode. Her main priority during the mob scene was clearly on Helaena and trying to keep her safe. She definitely knows she messed up, and at least has a desire to maybe right a few wrongs but she's definitely realizing that her boys cannot be controlled.
It's sad, but i dont think she's a victim. Especially in the books. Here, the show is trying to make her look like one, but this whole time, she's been ambitious. Rhenyra offered her many chances at peace. Even to bethrode her children so the house can be united. Instead she chose to bethrode her "beloved" daughter to her awful son, who r*pes women and drinks. Her son Aegon does not speak valaryan and no doubt has no knowledge about war or anything really... which was HER job to instill into her children. She didn't yet she "fights" for the realm to have a good rightful leader. She conspires with horrible people like Larrys. Resulting in many people's deaths. Innocent may i add. Like in episode 1 i think in season 2 when larrys came to tell her that her maids are giggling about her and cristom and larrys said...they no longer breathe our air. I do not pitty her at all. I think she is evil and anyone who cant see it is too naive to vote. Sure, she was under certain circumstances but you cannot blame it all on the people around her and never her. She made her choices in life and they ended up placing her where she is now.
A mother who can literally roll her eyes and walk away from her son who’s child just got decapitated instead of comforting him whatsoever……..that’s not trying.
@@LucreziaMeztlyshe’s awful in the book. I do wish they talked about how she was as a mother because for blood and cheese, I mean her daughter visited her quarters every single night for the grandchildren to say good night so there’s so much information left out. Really in the book she is just straight ready to plunge the realm into a devastating war (with damn dragons) and she *knows* Rhaenyra & Daemon aren’t gonna back down. Her and Cole were horrible.
I think the way the prophecy has been used is great, honestly. Rhaenyra wasn’t taking it seriously until it became another way for her to justify her campaign and her righteousness to herself. Had the Greens not usurped her and power transitioned peacefully, I feel like she wouldn’t have even bothered to tell Jace about it. The very future fate of the world only matters to these people when it affirms their world view. If anyone truly wanted what was best, you would think the Song would have been told to other leaders at the very least, but no, it’s the extra special secret in the back of the mind of the most powerful person in the world and their next of kin. It does make me even more apprehensive about the idea of us ever getting an Aegon the Conqueror spinoff, though; everything about him seems so much more interesting to me as this long dead legend whose thoughts and intentions we can never truly know. If they do ever actually make it, how do they make it compelling?
They could make a conqueror show compelling by having the relationship between Visenya, Rhaenys and Aegon at its center. There is so much complicated stuff there. Made even more complicated by the long running theory that Aegon was infertile, meaning the Crown Prince, the direct link to every living Targaryen was actually a bastard. And in knowing that, Visenya used dark magic to make a baby with Aegon's DNA and created a monster also known as Maegor. I think they can accomplish this and still keep Aegon more mysterious. His sisters, imo, were much more interesting. I think anything made would be heavy Visenya focused. We know the most about her because she lived the longest.
Knowledge is power. The Targaryen's only share this information with the heir. Jace was not heir to the iron throne until Viserys died, and that is when she told him. I don't think she's using this to justify her cause, she fully believes it herself. If she was using it, she would be telling others about it which she is not.
I think the song of ice and fire being true in the mind of Viserys means he has the responsibility of not only choosing successors that will unite the realm till the winter comes but also lead to the birth of the prince that was promised.
I never understood the "that kiss is terrible and unnecessary!" thing. It made perfect sense to me. Rhaenyra lost her father, her daughter, her son, her only female mentor, her husband in a matter of weeks. She is arguably losing this war which could only end in her death and the death of her children. Nobody understands her as a woman, nobody respects her as Queen. She feels helpless, isolated and lost. Now here's a person showing support and reverence, pouring honey into her ear. How could Rhaenyra not be seduced?
I hate to be that person but I really do think it's subconscious homophobia. Writers always have to work twice as hard to get an audience to accept a queer romance and some people will still call it forced even if the tension is clearly there. If on some level you don't think queer sexuality is something that just naturally happens of course it's going to seem forced
@@spirithawk6580 JFC this nonsense of painting everyone who disagrees with you with the same ugly brush. You have to turn everyone else into demons just so you can sleep at night with your own idiocy. If you refuse to engage with people's actual thoughts and simply close your ears and "lalalala" the whole world, just admit it. I have nothing against lesbian romance. I enjoy a good romance no matter who or what is part of it. This is NOT that. Read any of the comments about how gratuitously callous this scene is in the context of SA, how uncomfortable it feels. Be lucky that you yourself have clearly never experienced SA or threat of any kind if you can be so ignorant as to dismiss those people's POV as "subconscious homophobia" Get out of here with your bigoted self. As to the OP point, I do get where they THOUGHT they were going with it, and I could definitely see this kiss happening at another time if it were done with deftness and care. But these 2 characters/actors have no chemistry such that in the current state, especially after Mysaria just admitting so SA, this kiss comes across as so unwarranted and rather tasteless. If someone admits to SA you don't force a kiss onto them without any explicit discussion around consent.
I did not like it but I understand it. Rhaenyra is also a woman of fire and she is impulsive. She thinks she has lost her husband and feels that nobody respects her. She will cling to any sort of affection and comfort and that has been given by Mysaria at the moment. It could also work in the future as to why Mysaria betrays her? Mysaria also feels seen and respected by Rhaenyra, if Daemon and Nyra reconcile and get in the way of that close connection, perhaps Mysaria will try to create conflict between them to not lose her queen´s favour to Daemon. I don´t know it is a theory.
@@spirithawk6580not necessarily; it wasn’t in the books; the allusion to Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell’s relationship was in the books and was not a surprise in the show same as Lenore Valyrian. No one commented on those relationships being unnecessary. They were other homosexual relationships in the books as well. This one did not happen though. Some of us book nerds just get annoyed when too much creative license is taken when adapting books to screen. That’s all 😊.
@@shaeyager8165Okay, but Rhaenyra and Laena's relationship in the book was heavily queer-coded. Why do "book fans" forget about that? The book is written from the pov of Maesters and historians, who would have no way of knowing what was happening behind closed doors between Rhaenyra and Mysaria. Also, the author of the books himself, GRRM, is a co-creator on the show. If he felt certain plot points were forced or unnecessary, he would've made his displeasure known, as he has done countless times before. Also, it's funny to see "book fans" complain about Rhaenyra and Mysaria's relationship, whereas no one seems bothered by how Rhaenyra and Alicent's entire dynamic was changed from the books to the show. And how important characters like Maelor and Kermit Tully have been completely erased.
Rhaenyra is getting a lot of the character development that Cersei got in the book that we didn’t get to see in the show. The freedom and power that men have is what she wants to have, not in a necessarily trans way except that the behaviors are unacceptable only because of their bodies being female. It’s framed as off putting when she drinks and is cruel and takes lovers like a man, finally relishing the power she believed should have been hers as the eldest of only she hadn’t been a woman. There was so little difference between her and Jaime until they were teens (same as Jahaerys and Jahaera being indistinguishable). They’re right that the realm won’t allow a woman to rule because the behaviors required to rule are seen as unacceptable in women. It’s recursive.
I was surprised too, but people in general seem to have liked episodes 3 and 5 more than this one, when those episodes were heavily meh. In stark contrast to this one, who was awesome. I'm baffled.
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ Yeah, I mean, personally, I like this episode as much as I like episode 3. The dialogue and the character building episodes are usually my favourite, but because of one scene at the end, it leaves a weird taste in my mouth. In episode 3, it was Rhaenyra meeting up with Alicent and in episode 6, it was Rhaenyra and Mysaria kissing, which seemed unnecessary since the characters didn't previously give off romantic chemistry before, in my opinion. Episode 5 was still my least favourite because it focused too much on Daemon's boring plot in Harrenhal and I just think that episodes 5 and 6 could've easily been combined into one episode since they were both a lot slower than I would've liked. It's taken a lot longer to get to the Dragonseed auditions than I thought, and that kinda annoyed me, but oh well, at least its finally coming in episode 7.
You don't need to look further than two women kissing to understand why the episode is getting bad reviews. The hate of difference is still going strong in this world.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
One of the things that I liked about the kissing scene is that first, Rhaenyra seems to be physically attracted to those who show an inkling of respect of her position and character (Harwin was the only one who looked favourably at her when she hunted that boar and he didn't admonish her when he found her in the streets of King's Landing; Daemon who liked the more rebellious aspect of her and now Myssaria who reinforces her the idea that she is the Queen and that is actively helping her) and secondly how she is taking on the facade of Daemon (holding a sword, taking more risky decisions and now seeming to start a relationship with Myssaria).
bro this is all invalid at the fact that this isn't even something the writes chose to contribute to Rhaenyra's story. It was a decision made by the actress, because she in fact is queer herself. so of course she would want to plant queer ideologies into Rhaenyra's character. If this was from the books or the writers chose to do, I would entertain theories behind the reasoning, but there is no reasoning at all for the kiss. It was decision made by the actress herself.
@@Meep413this is not a book with one author my guy, there IS a book for that, but with a tv show acting choices are valid if the director and editors like them, sorry 🤷
@@Meep413 an adaptation is an adaptation nonetheless, if you think that the actor/actress ideas shouldnt contribute to character development, look at a character like jack sparrow
@@chrisrubin6445 I’m just saying if you want to dig deep into the kiss, you really won’t find anything to justify it considering it was a whim decision by the actress
@@joseepp1712 if they agreed with it obviously it made the cut right? All I’m saying however is that there is no in-depth analysis needed to look into that scene considering the choice was made by the actress. And they discussed how they didn’t want it to seem like it was queer bating, at least they had the sense to be aware of that, but at the end of the day it’s hard not to see it that way, when the actress came up with it, and we know that Emma is queer herself so, it checks out why she would encourage the scene with Rhaenyra.
Watching Aemond as Prince Regent is an absolute delight. Ewan Mitchell's anime villain vibes are reaching new all time highs lmao. I love this man. Also seeing someone finally call out Larys on his bullshit was genuinely both chilling and satisfying.
You can see hints of the madness and rage beneath. When she slaps dude, when she ruminates with the sword in her hand. She was about to let loose in her vent w/ Jace who unknowingly derails her with the mother talk. The way R is being played by her actor is amazing. I really cant wait until she lets the anger through. Such a better progression into madness. I feel she will be controversial by season 3.
Madness is a bit of a strong word. She's been repeatedly disrespected by people who swore to serve her, her husband/uncle had a toddler decapitated, refused to admit to it and peaced off with one of her biggest assets, her remaining living son still relies on said husband/uncle more-so than her, she just made a big blunder and is frustrated about it, she lost a guiding figure who was one of her only steady allies, and she basically feels backed against the wall with a war to win. The slap is not an ideal emotional reaction, but I do take slight offense with "madness" being the default response whenever a woman ruler shows less than perfect emotions. It is kind of a pattern in this IP/fandom, and I wish it wasn't as prevalent.
I think she's ashamed of her more violent thoughts and impulses ans tries to contain them. She is ashamed and puts the sword down when Mysaria comments. She seemed so when she called for Aemond Targaryan. The more she contains herself the more monstruos it will be later. Perhaps that is what was poorly portrayed in Daenyrys
I'm with you on this. Raynese said it best...she's the only one exercising restraint and Alys Rivers said the crown is a burden to bear. She's right for the throne. I love this.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
I think its highly relevant that Rhaenyras yearning to be a warrior figure, a protector, a righteous wielder of power, hasnt been validated in this show since Alicent did it when they were young. It's no surprise that Mysaria validating her in similar ways to how Alicent did (even saying that she would make a good queen, exactly what got Rhaenyra blushing and looking at the ground in 1x8), lead to this surge in confidence and also a resurgence of her sort of. awkward teenage behavior. It's fascinating.
Remember Maester Aemon’s words in GOT, “ A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing” in relation to the changes we’re seeing in Rhaenyra -> she’s a monarch but she’s isolated in a very stressful and almost impotent situation on Dragonstone…maybe this is the beginning of a transformation with awful consequences for all. Great video, as always
Agree! She's spent the entire season building a case for the justification of invoking the nuclear option, which I think will add a lot of weight to the inevitable carnage to come. Adding Daemon back into the mix will also ratchet up the tension. Episode 6 was my favorite so far, as far as character development. I'm amazed that they've managed to make us both sympathize with and despise Alicent. She made the bed she's in, but it's still hard to watch her get completely gutted and sidelined, by her own kids no less.
People are calling Aegon a fool, but she is the same...........they both are clueless. Viserys taught nothing about the throne to any of his children..........except that one story which will not help anyone in this war.
@@Mmm-nj5dk That story undermines both Rhaenyra and Alicent. It changes their motivations from the, focused on power, ruthless women, that they were in the book, to a much softer depiction. I wonder if this was a deliberate attempt to sanitize them to be appealing to a modern crowd, "That could be my Mom."
@@DarthPlato Yeah true, but they don't stop there. They make Daemond and Aegon monsters for no reason. There was no wife killing, Grape and children fighting pits.........Daemond was good to his daughters and Aegon did not graped......this greatly affects the plot.
@@Mmm-nj5dk I didn't read the book. I was not making that kind of comparison. I was strictly addressing the in-story inconsistencies -- to put mildly -- of the tv version, again, without any regard to who these characters were in the book.
Honestly I realy like, that there are always paralels betwen Aegon and Rhaenyra, in this part of the story for example both of them get ignored and disrespected by their own council, and the only person who comes to them and says that they belive in them are their spymasters. And both of them use this opportunity to manipulate the monarchs and gain more power. Larys tries to use him being a criple too, so Aegon thinks that they are similar, so he will trust him more. And Mysaria does the same thing. I do not belive it for a moment, that she was honest with Rhaenyra, she was probably trying to get more power same way Larys was.
I loved Rhaenyras character because of the fact that she loses the plot. She represents the darkest most deranged side in all of us who are constantly trying to figure out the motives of those around us. The paranoia and distrust she goes through. The idea that we are all the good guys in our own story. Losing herself in attempts to claw back her power reflects the struggle that we all go through to gain status and money. We all start off similar to the “realms delight” but as we grow the “black queen” creeps in. Of course we try our best to steer away from that path but man is it fun to watch someone else do it. Characters like Rhaenyra are a release from that fantasy. The same way I appreciated Dany’s plot. Although very rushed and not executed the best, I did enjoy living vicariously through her and her rage. Maybe I just like angry characters idk lol.
I don't know if we "all" "let the Black Queen creep in" as we get older. Personally, I was a bit of a selfish s**t as a child (most kids are!) and have been improving myself as a person throughout adulthood. I'm an objectively better person at age 37 than I was at age 27 and hope to be even better at 47. In my opinion, that's the point of being alive. I also don't always find it fun to watch characters embrace rage. It makes me hurt for them, and for those they hurt. Except for characters like Aemond, Daemon, and sometimes Aegon II, who are charismatic arseholes and wouldn't fool most people into thinking they were the good sort in real life.
@@joywagner979 I am the opposite, I enjoy watching them break for some reason. It's very satisfying to see a character rage after trying very hard to be the voice of reason, and having others now suffer the consciences of not listening.
Thank you, 🙏 finally a well-thought analysis of Rhaenyras character. Finally someone is making the connection that she is trying to copy daemons behavior - even going so far by kissing his former lover. This als reminds me a lot of Cerceis behavior in the books where she trys to copy her father in his ruthlessness (and fails) and also copying Robert's drinking and feasting. So this is actually very in line with tropes established in George rr martins books.
Brilliantly put. I wish more people would see it. Like I think it's fair enough fire and blood book readers don't like change, but surely we can at least engage with the story they're trying to tell before we dismiss it? I don't understand how everyone seems to think she's being portrayed as the embodiment of all virtue
It might have been significant when the smallfolk man stole a bag of food from another guy. Perhaps everyone acting on that same desperation will erupt in more chaos and violence, leading to massive death in Kingslanding? Maybe Rhaenyra gets the logistics wrong on her gifts and causes unnecessary suffering
The show clearly wants you to root for the blacks, even all the diversity hires are for the blacks while the greens are all meh white people, except for the grand measter who is not exactly on board.
im starting to think people really just want to see dragons ripping each other apart each episode when its clear they're building a lot in place for season 3 i understand them putting nettles storyline with rhaena bc its pointless to add more characters in a tv show format in the way they are in the books. people also forget that the book is supposed to be an unreliable secondhand historical account. The show is essentially creating a secondary canon (or daresay a fun fanfiction that is approved as a type of canon by GRRM) some of the episodes have been slower than id like but i REALLY like that they're taking their time with this and letting us see the progression--something we didnt get with dany's "madness" and other things
Nobody wants to wait another two years for things to actually happen when the stakes have been the same more or less for most of the season. We already knew Daemon had issues, loved Viserys but was conflicted, but we had four episodes in Harrenhal. Rhaenyra has done almost nothing. People just want things to DEVELOP. It’s boring to hear the same things said over and over again: “Rhaenyra can’t go to war!” “The Riverlands are contested!!” Two years between season one and season two, and if you summarized episode six and five, episode five didn’t need to be a full hour. Hopefully the next two episodes are actually good.
I am liking this season for what it is, but it has been heavily weak and build-up for things that I doubt will ever occur. House of the Dragon may have started its decline, inherently because of the flaws of the source material.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Though, I must say having another season of setup for the future seasons is kind of annoying. Like, it seems to me that Season 3 will be where most of the major events happen (Battle of the Gullet, First Tumbleton, Fall of Dragonstone, Battle Above the God's Eye), like it's kind of a lot to pack into one season while Season 2 only really had the Battle of Rook's Rest and whatever is supposed to happen in the finale. IMO, they really should've just left the Gullet and the Fall of King's Landing in Season 2, but it's whatever atp
@@Larissa-up7lu The show is in a tough spot, because Rhaenyra basically does nothing in the Dance. She complains and gets fat like her father then does an ill conceived siege on King Landing.
its really nice to watch your view as a fellow (generally) unspoiled viewer absolutely absurd how many other channels just spoil what’s going to happen without even giving warnings.
I also really liked this episode. Yeah the last scene felt weird and kind of came out of nowhere, but the music in that scene kinda indicated for me that this was not a positive scene and that Mysaria might use Rhaenyras longing for appreciation for her own ends. If thats true, then the scene will be perfectly fine but well have to see Rest of the episode was pretty stellar to me, the cinematography and production design is just amazing.
I have read all the books front to back and I think you're EXACTLY right. This entire conflict is supposed to be complicated and there IS no good and evil. The ones who are truly innocent and suffer are the smallfolk, as ever. This has been a core tennant of George's works and I don't think the show has forgotten it yet. I do think some of the writers are struggling to navigate this arc for Rhaenyra - but episodes like this one and S2E2 absolutely shine. People want to reduce it down to "Ryan Condal is team black and therefore makes everybody on team black good and sympathetic and everybody on team green awful and monstrous" and it just isn't true. Alicent, and even Aegon are absolutely sympathetic characters, trapped in a cycle of abuse and neglect. Rhaenyra is a good mother, but still put her children in danger, still chose to go to war, and I feel like Matt Smith is so charming and charismatic that people forget what an absolute toxic monster Daemon is. Book Rhaenyra is very one note, a spoiled ugly woman who is bloodthirsty and full of rage. The women in F&B are often written with this negative bias (Alicent is just as vindictive and cruel) unless they are especially pious and chaste. This is simply because Fire and Blood is written by maesters who weren't there, and the citadel is pretty misogynistic generally. It isn't meant to be taken as fact, and I think the show would suffer if they went that direction. It's honestly a little off-putting how bloodthirsty some viewers seem to be - they seem to want Rhaenyra to ride out and just burn king's Landing to the ground. This might be a war but this story isn't about that.
I think the issue is more how for example the killing of vaemond is pushed of to daemon and how the laenor thing is handled. Changing that characterization could hardly be because FB is propaganda.
You're so smart! Like when you brought up the whole caged insect and then the imagery of her surrounded by the columns, always framed by guards on each side, and then in the wheel house with Helaena it all clicked! It's so subtle by the cinematographers but well done!
Glad I'm not crazy. I really liked this episode aside from the implications around Rhaena (if you know, you know...) I was slightly disappointed with the battle of Rook's Rest after it was hyped up by the fandom (I also have not read Fire & Blood) It was a good episode, but everyone seemed to love that episode. And then the past two episodes so many people complaining about how slow the show is or complaining about stuff like the Rhaenyra kiss, etc. While the battles and super dramatic stuff is great, ASOIAF has always been about the characters and politics. That's what the past two episodes were all about and I love it.
@@danielwhitley4927 It was so hyped by book readers, so maybe I was just expecting too much. It was a good episode, but thought it would have been better. Plus there were other issues I had with the episode like how Vhagar somehow got a stealth kill on Rhaenys despite Vhagar basically being Godzilla with wings and the battle taking place on a clear sunny day... It reminded me of when D&D said Dany just sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet. Like what....? Did they storyboard this episode, or did they just wing it? And while I really like Rhaenys, I thought the final shot of her letting go of her reigns and falling was a bit cheesy... Also, I know Aegon survives in the book apparently, but the show did a shit job explaining how he fell hundreds of feet and survived--in the next episode, we find out that the only fall injury he really seemed to sustain was a broken leg... the rest was burnt flesh. I doubt the book goes into detail as to how Aegon survived, but the show seems to have just literally given him plot armor because Valyrian steel armor protects you from fall damage I guess. Episode 6 isn't perfect, but it also wasn't being hyped as a major thing, so maybe that helped. I think people are overlooking the issues with the Rook's Rest episode because it had a big dragon battle, plus it was dramatic with a major character death. But I thought season 1 did this same thing 1000x better, with Aemond vs Luke. That dragon confrontation wasn't as action packed, but it was much more emotional and logically made sense.
@@CosmicPotato There were definite problems with Rook's Rest, I really believe they do things like that because a lot of viewers don't mind it and prefer the dramatic effect. But what I liked about it wasn't the battle, it was still about the characters. The build up of what actually drove Aegon to go there. The duty and/or strength of Rhaenys to return and risk death, which is very inspiring to me..... and I value it enough to look past the problems. I think the fall was very meaningful too, and seems to resonate with a lot of viewers. Rhaenys isn't even a regular, core character, and still people seem to have been extremely attached to her, which is a credit to how much that character could be endeared to viewers even with much less screen time.
So - to me/ the way the moment played out in the episode we just had felt off. Mysaria had just vulnerably shared about the horrific s%#ual abuse she suffered as a child- at the hands of the person who was supposed to protect her- her father. Back in season 1 Mysaria had said she saught liberation from fear in being with Daemon. I believe - based on that and her focus on protecting the vulnerable abused children and by championing the empowerment of the “small folk” Mysaria is consciously or unconsciously driven by that experience she had. She shared with Rhaenyra her most vulnerable truth - a core experience where she was in a power dynamic in which the person who held more power (her dad) over her (as a small child) took her based on HIS desire. Then Rhaenyra (a Queen who in the show has done this in season 1 with Criston Cole - and believe me I hate his character so I’m not biased) responds by initiating a kiss with Mysaria. The fact that it was Rhae who initiated this… To me is an important detail. She may not have been thoughtful of the power dynamics here but she should have been because Mysaria has just told her - you are treating me as an equal. Then Rhaenyra follows a vulnerable share as Mysaria begins to trust her (after she just shared its hard to trust) with an act of desire. It would feel - if I were Mysaria- like an instant betrayal and a revelation of Rhaenyra’s true character. It would make me feel like Whelp - there goes my trust. At least - from the way it was acted by Mysaria actress - I saw no indication of desire on her part.she just surrendered to the moment. Though we didn’t see her face as the camera angle was facing Rhaenyra. Perhaps Mysarias survival instinct came in when she kissed her back? Perhaps she did want it? We can’t be sure. But it felt like a very off moment to me. It would not be shocking to me if she used that moment of kissing Rhae back as an attempt to shift the power dynamic again - in her favor.so that’s why it would not be a surprise if the show goes in the direction of Mysaria betraying Rhaenyra. It would be more obvious to me that she would after this moment. I wonder if this was the actors and directors trains of thought too or if they are oblivious about how that could be the perception. I will bank on it being intentional if they address the way it happened again somehow on the show.
I don't think an advance like that (one I don't think you can clearly and uncomplicatedly attribute to one party over the other) after a traumatic disclosure automatically makes it unethical. Desire and trauma are intimately connected in all sorts of dark and disturbing ways, just ask the psychoanalysts. This is a difficult point to bring up and discuss given the delicacy of the subject, but I believe the show depicted the moment well - it was both disturbing and deeply intimate. Opening oneself up to another and disclosing trauma forms bonds and yes, stirs the libido. See Daemon and his mother. You can call it toxic and unhealthy, but to write it off as unrealistic or insensitive writing is missing the dark reality of human desire.
Also, if I'm to put my foot down on one point, I'd say there was Objectively desire coming from Mysaria. I say that emphatically as it is all too common for people to see victims of SA as nothing but trauma, denying their s3xual autonomy. A sad second wound. (One that is incidentally neatly mirrored in Larys' scene) It is possible to have trauma and still be able to desire. Mysaria is a survivor not a victim.
@@por5215 I think it depends on the specifics of what her relationship to Rhaenyra might mean. If it is truly a repeat of hers with Daemon, then it won't be positive. I don't think that's what she feels it is yet, and I think you're right, she was engaging with the kiss and it might feel positive for her now, but what the behaviour reflects of Rhaenyra's changing character is likely negative and it will be interesting to see what kind of relationship does progress. Will it be one based in equals, or will it warp into the very thing Mysaria is hopeful Rhaenyra stands against
@@mylittlethoughttree agree! You're right, the power dynamics at play are not to be ignored! Loved your thoughts, awaiting eagerly your future musings!
Everyone has made interesting points I want to make clear my point that I’d shared in my post above. Rhaenyra initiated the kiss. We didn’t see Mysarias face as that was happening. The camera focused on Rhaenyra. To me that is an important detail in the story telling. Since the director chose to make the camera angle focus Rhaenyras face at the moment of initiation- it was about Rhaenyra. We don’t get to see Mysaria in that moment. We see her response. I said in my post I don’t know if she wanted it or not. I did not definitively say Mysaria was a victim. In fact I feel her character has proven so far she is not. She very much is a survivor who is very aware of power dynamics and who chooses to work those dynamics. (I am thinking of her conversation with Otto in season one and also of her reflection on that conversation when she says something like they didn’t like that she bared her teeth. I’m wondering if post that conversation- when she shows her hand or makes herself seem vulnerable - is it actually a power move? I am curious to see what the show will tell us in time on that.) I also want to clarify I didn’t say it was poorly handled by the director. I was saying I am wondering where they will go with it - as I think they are very much paying attention to details. At least I hope they are. I am pretty sure they are. I hope they weren’t oblivious to how this could be perceived.
Ayyo, I haven't seen anybody talking about this in regards to the depiction of Rhaenyra, but I've been thinking a lot about how she isn't being portrayed as a 'good guy' but rather as a different kind of bad person, and the fan base seems to think that if she isn't a power hungry murderer, then she must be a moral Paragon? I think Rhaenyra is really becoming much clearer through these recent episodes as a much more dangerous parent than even Alicent, passing on her abuse and trauma directly to the next generation... But in a way that the show seems not to want to confront. These last few episodes have both had scenes with Rhaenyra spousifying poor sweet Jacerys and they've been some of the harder scenes to watch in this show. With Blood and Cheese, with the dragon murders, with Larys' foot fetish scene, it was clear the show knew this was bad and was painting it as creepy. But watching Rhaenyra twist her son into being responsible for her emotional needs, into play -acting as a partner to her... While triumphant music swells and the marketing talks about how she's the good mom? HAUNTING. Rhaenyra is drowning, flailing for her emotional needs to be met, and she keeps extracting them from extremely vulnerable people who she OWES emotional control to. Rhaenyra has become an abuser this season and it's freaking me out that anyone - her fans or her detractors - could say that she's being painted as a good guy! Moms are not supposed to dump their emotional needs into sons! Bosses are not supposed to dump their emotional needs on their workers (and definitely shouldn't kiss them, especially when they just talked about their own history of abuse). Needless to say I am loving this boring, terrible show right now 😅
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but it's not like Westeros has therapists to dump onto. And she's not just any boss, she's the Monarch, all of her needs are to be filled by the people around her, including the emotional ones.
I think having important, deep conversations with the heir to the crown who is a young ADULT man while they're at a time of desperate war, she's short on other reliable adults with a stake on the situation, and he's the second most important person in this whole thing, isn't "abuse".
You are not at all alone in your thinking! The tavern scene and many of the scene transitions this episode were pretty jarring. And I feel it’s a disservice to Addam to (possibly) only start “filling out” his character now that he’s a dragon rider. I also felt the writers, like so much of GOT, “just” use (and misuse) the abuse acted out upon it’s characters. In this case, most pointedly, Mysaria.
Also, why would there not be any amongst the small folk who could see the “gift” for what it was? Manipulation and just another way in which they get hurt!
@@SEHmmmmmmever hear “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth” ? They are starving and literal boatloads of fresh food just entered the city. They’ve got bigger problems to worry about
@@morganhunt8051 Sure. But enjoying the spoils doesn’t mean you can’t *also* recognise and comment on it being a trick and that, for all the immediate satiation, it will still make shit worse in the long run. Not everyone will have believed it to be a sign of Rhaenyra actually caring about them.
What bothered me is that Seasmoke chased him down and claimed him. And many were not tickled by this? I thought Addam would tame Seasmoke the same way Aemond with Vaghar, for example. Or how Nettles tamed Sheepstealer in the source material. But Seasmoke, all of a sudden, starts chasing him... why, specifically? Why now? Why him and not Alyn or Corlys?
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ It was a bit jump scare puppy! But we have seen Seasmoke flying overhead before so maybe not so sudden… Maybe once Addam will be fleshed out enough to understand the reason why him. Well, I hope so. I do get what you’re saying but I’m not completely sure that saying “calm”, or feeding them sheep, is much of a show of taming either!
This is was definitely one of my favorite season 2 episodes thus far (though Rhaenyra The Cruel still takes my number one slot). I think the people criticizing Rhaenyra for being too soft are honestly just ignoring her characterization in the first season. The woman we met in season 1 wouldn't immediately turn into a tyrant after Luc's death. And what would be so exciting about that anyway? I'd rather that character arc take its time. Even as a non-Fire and Blood reader, I can already tell that Rhaenyra is slowly going down a darker path. And I'm happy at how slowly that change is occurring. We do NOT need another Danny mad queen arc, where multiple seasons worth of character development is shoved into about three episodes. Just my two scents.
Couldn't agree more! I get the argument that it'd be quicker pacing to have her descend after season 1. I get that her ending there made it seem like that's what would happen...but I find the time they're taking provides more depth, is more fulfilling, and the slower pace suits better for the most
I love how Rhaenyra and Alicent's character development has been handled. Alicent is really reflecting on her own actions and failures, and being very brutally honest with herself in the midst of the world unraveling around her. Whereas Rhaenyra responds to these events with anger, violence, self pity and horniness. Even Daemon is developing more than her
horniness?..so you excuse Alicents adultery, ..the Queen mother bedding the Hand of the King...which in this world would be high treason and punishable by death?
@@thebruisedkind5345 When did I say I was excusing anyone's behaviour? Almost every character has committed grave sins and crimes at this point, and have contributed to this horrible conflict. I'm just saying that some characters are reflecting on their actions with regret and honesty, and some are not. Seriously, does everything in this world have to be polarized now? Go touch grass
@@natedogg890 When did I say I was excusing anyone's behavior? ...when you didnt point out Alicents "horniness" which was much much worse, in this world, than Rhaenyras kiss...what Alicent did, in this world, would be considered treason and punishable by death
On the surface it's easier to see her like a good person, the audience's anchor, and in some ways, she is, but as she admits herself, she wanted to be like Daemon, who is a terrible role model. Like him, she sort of causes a lot of her own problems but doesn't see it that way. Shes just like people in the real world in that way; I don't think I know anyone who doesn't side with team black. Who doesn't want to think they are doing the right thing all the time, especially when they have prophecy, power and family behind them? I would think I was right if I were Daenerys or Rhaenyra too.
As a book nerd, I don't have too much of a problem with Rhaenyra's characterisation. At least I don't agree with those complaints. I think in the books she is stronger. The sexism angle they've introduced for mirroring purposes doesn't make sense. I can't see Rhaenyra putting up with that for a split second. The lords who support her are also going to be the least sexist and or biggest believers in her. I think it ties in with the second part, in the books she's more self assured. I'm struggling for the right words to express my meaning. She has a moral certainty that she is in the right and that a great crime has been done to her. She gets her strength from that. I think that also makes her a better leader than we're seeing in the show. She's also more emotional and angry. At least that's my feelings. In Game of thrones either the actors or show runners decided that strength equals being emotionally bottled up and restrained, a bit like the British monarchy. The dead pan monotone deliveries. I feel that's being continued a bit. I got taken out of the episode early with the confirmation of the erasure of nettles. It feels so wrong to cut such an important character. It whiffs of racism a bit. Nettles being black and not being a Targaryen, probably, and not being noble but becoming a player based on her wits is a much more important and progressive story than making the Velaryon's black and having only Valyrians be able to tame dragons. On a positive note Matt Smith was amazing.
With all the Velaryons and associated bastards already being black, I think they felt safer in cutting out Nettles despite her being the only black character in the book. From a tv perspective, it also makes sense to use Rhaena. We already know her and she has little else to do for most of the war, while Nettles would be yet another addition to an already large cast that is also controversial (because of the Daemon thing, which could be better if we KNOW he's with his daughter, not lover) and isn't needed from the "can non-Targs even ride dragons?" perspective since they're already doing that with Alyn and Addam.
@@g_wylde I've heard the excuses and I don't buy them. I think it's darkly ironic that the main victim of the white show runners virtue signalling is a black female who succeeds through merit. That feels really icky to me. The age thing I keep seeing people in the comments mention is no different to Dany and Drogo, Alicent and Viserys, Leanna and Rhaegar. I'm not sure why there's a difference this time. Obviously they'd have to age up Nettles as they have every other time. The affair is kind of important as it's the final betrayal of their marriage. I'm not sure a father going off with his daughter has any impact at all, unless they're going incestuous with it. The Addam and Alyn point, you've mis quoted me since they are Valyrians. Having a normal person break through into a world of nobles and their bastards means so much more. ASoIaF is an anti monarchy story. So nettles not being of the bloodline as far we know is important. She also contrasts the other dragon riders in so many ways. I think the Rhaena actress is really good. But a character should not have more importance because of their last name. At least for me that detracts from their importance to the story. It adds absolutely nothing and takes away from something that is different and unique. If anything it's condescending to the audience.
I really love this idea, and it would honestly be so tragic. In the latest Inside the Episode, Emma Darcy had said that we are starting to see Rhaenyra exhibit signs of fanaticism, such as when she willingly sent Darkling to death to get another dragon rider. I think they are probably alluding to the same idea you have
willingly? i mean she did warn him that there is a very good chance he would die, so to me that felt like his choice. unless you’re saying she lied about his targaryen heritage?
IDC that you haven't read the original source material, but it's been clear that Rhaenyra's narrative this season is based on how she didn't have anything major she did in the book at this point. After her miscarriage, she spent a while recovering and didn't become a player in the war officially until later. This is why the writers are trying to find something to do with her. The problem is, it's a backtrack from where we left her at the end of Season 1. Season 1's conclusion heavily implied that upon hearing about Luc's death, she had a smoldering rage that was ready to explode. That all vanished in Season 2 with 0 explanation. There was no dialogue, no mention, no hint at for whatever reason Rhaenyra's anger at the death of her son went away. Trying justify Rhaenyra's sudden (and it was sudden) attraction to Mysaria shows why this was a poor/weak/lazy bit of writing. Mysaria throughout this season has garnered HEAVY plot armor from the writers. Her excuses/answers do not reflect the proper consequences. Rhaenyra should STILL have Mysaria imprisoned for the clear and obvious side she took with the Hightowers (simply saying she had to survive at best means she cannot be trusted to do anything other than helping herself). The amount of stupid luck the writers gave her to see Erryk Cargyll walking onto Dragonstone IN HIS OWN ARMOR and use that to justify Rhaenyra's trust in her is very poor writing compared to everything else going on this season. Now, if they're using Rhaenyra's trust of Mysaria to show she is making yet another stupid move, then this is all fine as it highlights Rhaenyra's massive naivety and her clear poor choices when it comes to physical intimacy.
I don't think it's a backtrack on season 1 Rhaenyra at all. I don't think she was the type of character to completely descend after the death of her son, and I think there's a lot more depth to fleshing out a more gradual change. I think that argument makes sense, but I don't personally agree. As for Mysaria, I like the kiss. It's incredibly ominous, it reflects Rhaenyra directly trying to be Daemon, and it reflects how incredibly lonely she's felt and how that possibly makes her easy to manipulate. The absolute trust she's showing in Mysaria is a deliberate mistake of hers, in my opinion. Finally she seems to find one person who respects her as a queen, and she's all in on it. I like that
The writers are taking away Alicent and Rhaenyra’s ruthlessness though. Women don’t care about the realm or dragons fighting when their child is killed, any woman in real life when it comes to their children they are very protective and ruthless to anyone who harms them.
yeah is kinda funny how Rhaenyra forgot the death of LUCE, her stillborn and possible his father (with poison could be why not if the betray her). Rhaenys well is ehhhh but to this point she cares more about politics than remember SOMETHING about Luce or her father, in fact she mentions Viserys but as a peaceful ruler she wants to copy, not as her father in the dialogue . . .
@alvarogabrielaguirregarin3933 Wish they moved Rhaenyra from complaining about misogynistic men around her. Sometimes it doesn't make sense. She says his advisors want to protect her because she is a woman. The green council did the same thing for Aegon in order to protect their figurehead.
I like how they Rhaenyra said herself she was always jealous of Daemon wanting to be free like him able to go wherever she wished just like he was always Jealous of her wanting to be loved by Viserys and sit on the Iron Throne I hope they cover it more and show Rhaenyras side of this Jealousy her feelings on Daemon have been sorely ignored.
lol I was just seeing sooo many homophobic people going crazy about this one scene :D:D how its forced and George would never and blahblahblah, dont even realize that George RR Martin is liberal :D and they dont also realize that Rhaenyra and Laena had lowkey something in the books and that was already cut out.... why not with Mysaria then? Its crazy how many insane homophobes there are , its alwatys soo funny to read their meltdowns :D
I’m all for Rhaenyra having an Atreides-like fall and considering what happens in Fire and Blood I would be very surprised if they didn’t go there. However, I do think the show has been struggling with allowing female characters to own their ambitions and more self-serving desires. If it were only Rhaenyra, that would be one thing, but all the women in the show have been portrayed like this. The onus is always on the women to be the voices of temperance, while calls for war and vengeance are chiefly portrayed as the work of power-hungry men. The impression given is that all of these women have been pulled into the conflict mostly against their will, which is just not the case in the source material or, for that matter, much of the first season. I don't think it was their intention, but it does start to come across as benevolent sexism. The Rhaenyra they set up in the first season had no qualms about claiming and wanting her birthright. While I like Rhaenyra having a more subtle transformation, I'm not sure the constant indecision and passivity from both Rhaenyra and Alicent have communicated this effectively.
I don't like rhaenyra's writing for the same reasons that make me dislike daenerys's writing since the season one of game ofthrones. She's not showed as a nice person : she's showed as an evil person that the writers want you to see as good. Everytime she makes something stupid, weak, horrible ( killing an nnocent to fake Leanor's death, asking for aemond to be tortured, make the smallfolks starve ans then use they lack of hope to make them give her life for her, choosing lucerys overs Baela as a heir for corlys, making rhaenys believe her son is dead...) the show makes it look not so bad by the way it shows it ( music, dialogues, screentime). It looks like she has a moral armor plot, she can do everything she wants ans she is still good, strong intelligent. I see, they want to shock me later by making her do horrible things, but i will not be shocked cause i already see she is as bad and weak than other characters. And waiting for it, i am frustrated, angry and feel like the shows triés to trap me and ridiculously fails... . So frustrating because is the rest is good to genius on my opinion.
Your take on this episode is so refreshing, really nice to hear some positivity about it. Personally i enjoyed the episode, i think some of the pacing was a bit off and i totally agree that it'd be great to get to know Alyn and Addam better but overall i think House of The Dragon (so far) is a much better ASOIAF adaptation than GOT ended up being.
Yeah, Rhaenyra rampedd uo her "only I know what's good" this season. She even dressed a Septa to plea her case. People call Daemon a narcissist, but Rhaenyra is a close second. Mysaria was forced into prostitution and chose to use it to climb the social latter to safety. It failed with Daemon, and she decided to use her mind more than her body. I'm not so sure that a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra would be considered going forward by her. If I were her I would be mindful that Rhaenyra began sniffing me after I told her the first story of being brutally turned into a sex object by a person with power over my life. I've said this before, but The complaints about the show not showing women in a bad light is disingenuous and motivated by current red pill gender politics because this is in large part a story about women navigating a heavily patriarchal society. They're just mad. Many of the women in GOT were portrayed for most of the series as good people. Few of them had direct power anf, most were victims of men.at some point. We didn't meet this complaint on a large scale about tv shows until the 2016 US presidential elections and the word woke became more widely used. Now we have women with more power and agency and with greater responsibilities, and their caution, conscientiousness, and desire for personal pleasures is supposedly an unrealistic, unfair, pro-woman portrayal. If Rhaenyra was a man the complaint would be that a lead character is being written in too good a light, as in how people see Ned Stark. Gender wouldn't be (wasn't) a factor. Another giveaway for that BS is how the accusations of Rhaenyra having sex with Cole was sexual assault, but when he started screwing Alicent it became a relationship to those same people. The power imbalance between them is much bigger than what was between Cole and Rhaenyra, and so far the cost has been greater. Alicent being more of a "trad wife" they won't give her the same criticisms. I don't like the way common people are portrayed in these series. It's as if the writers have no idea how regular see those in power or their own places in society. Everything they do is a reaction to what the monarchy does, and their responses and criticisms of them are childish. All they seem there to do is put on sex shows, starve, die, and riot. Even Heleana was more is more thoughtful of their humanity than they are of their own. I kind of like Dyana and not-long-for-this-world Sylvie having personal stakes making them willing to take risks, the rest of them don't even need to have names.
I'm loving this take on Aemond, I disagree about Alicent being a tragic figure rather she's the true villain in my eyes. The fact that she constantly puts her needs above her children and the damage we see as a result. Aemond is the best to be equipped to be king...he's the smartest man in the room. Visery's saw through the BS but he always wanted to keep the peace...Aemond doesn't care about that.
11:33 The selection of shots here were really interesting. The tone shift and the way that scene of Alicent is shot almost made me think we were looking at a flash back of the younger Alicent. The show really killed it with the casting.
I immediately thought of young Alicent wearing her mother's dress this episode. The ill-fitted dresses she was wearing, the way her hair was put up in the courtyard scene. I was fully expecting her to start picking at her nails.
People think Rhaenyra's character regressed because she started as someone spunky, rebellious, and self-indulgent. But I am with you in that, they're building towards Rhaenyra's "madness". She's slowly going to become the atrocious person she was written as and she will feel justified for those.
Rhaenyra's kiss was an interesting parallel to Daemon's dream. She's turned on by the person assuring her She's the best ruler. It also affirms my belief that Alicent is/was at least in part motivated by emotions she doesn't understand or can't admit to herself. Rhae got to indulge in ways Alicent could never because of 'duty' and I think that envy is the dilemma of 'do I want to be like you or be with you'
The problem I have is that all of this is happening over the corpses of the poor. I think it’s been a good that many of these grand moral debates about feminism, and all that are fine. But at the end of the day the Targaryens power is wrought from fire and blood. built on a mountain of corpses and broken steel by Maegor and Visenya. Rhaenyra and Daemon believe themselves to be semi divine and don’t consider those not of Targaryen blood worthy of consideration or empathy. I think that should have been made more clear.
@@thing_under_the_stairs no, I don’t. But tbf the court drama is so disconnected to the commonfolk it makes sense. I will wait to see if this is remedied in the future. But many of the people like messaria. It should have been made more clear why daemon only loved his wives of Valyrian descent. It’s very clear Daemon wants to be like the Dragonlords of old and part of being a Dragonlord was an emphatic and uncompromising belief that you are superior to everyone else. Valyria was hell on earth to anyone except the Dragonlords. I’d take my chances in Mordor before going there during its height. In Valyria slaves died by the millions as callous dragonlords sipped fine wines in their towers, creating monstrous chimeras from their slaves and other animals. The idea that Valyria should be something replicated or looked upon fondly is only a position that can be held if you believe that non dragonlords are mere livestock. To be used then discarded once finished. I think the show could have done better by vowing us what Valyria was really like so that we’d understand the kind of past that Daemon looks fondly upon and wants to replicate. I’d focus more on Daemon but this ideology of Targaryen exceptionalism is common to all Targaryens and should have been explicitly stated as it was codified by Jaeharys to allow him to marry his sister without the faith rising in revolt. My main problems with HotD is that it doesn’t take its time. It just rapidly progresses from massive historical event to massive historical event without slowing down and digesting the themes and actions. The writers try to cram as much of this into the details as possible but it isn’t ever given its own spotlight or explored beyond the surface level because the show is moving so fast.
@@kekero540 I feel similarly. I feel they simply haven’t done a good enough job of portraying why none of these sides in the conflict are really right, and tackling those very damaging ideas of Targaryen Exceptionalism and the like. It’s why I find some of Rhaenyra’s characterization in this season in particular confusing.
While I do see the subtle changes I can understand why people are upset. In the books Rhaenyra pretty much stays like her younger self even as an adult. There isn't some big shift in maturity at all post time skip. Just from the books, she seems closer to Cersei than her show portrayal feeding a rival Velaryon to her dragon or going into a Black rage after hearing about Aegon's coronation and such. Also, its a genuine succession crisis where Alicent and most of the other Greens actually believed that Aegon had the best claim by the existing frameworks of succession and that the king arbitrarily choosing someone didn't give them the best claim. It wasn't something so fraudulent that Alicent needed a misunderstanding to believe it. Probably the biggest change in portrayal is the addition of the prophecy as a reason for the Blacks and their succession. The Blacks were just another party greedy for the throne. On occasion, Viserys even threatened to name someone else heir to get Rhaenyra to do what he wanted (like marry Laenor). Criston probably rejects her advances in the books and doesn't murder people at dinner. Aegon didn't go to child fighting pits and probably wasn't a r*pist. Rhaenyra and Alicent's characters have been changed dramatically and most of the liberties from the book are there to favor one side heavily.
This is why I prefer the book version. I like the show, but all this discourse over self-righteous people being oh so confident the show is better gives me a headache.
also isn't the show actually supposed to picture what truly happened, while the books were about the recorded history and rumors written by scholars and historians?
@@maymatekoteve Absolutely. The books were compiled by a maester, at least 100 yrs after the events taking place, from a minimum of three different sources. The epitome of unreliable narration!
that's exactly what i thought about the kiss and i'm surprised so many people found it out of context or forced. I think it was a natural progression for the scene and had an interesting subtext. I see it as a symbol of rhaenyra becoming daemon. She's frustrated because her council doesn't take her seriously and they only respected daemon and saw him as the true figure of authority. Daemon represents the archetype of dangerous warrior she would like to be seen as but doesn't know how to, and she's venting all this conflict she has with daemon to mysaria who happens to be his ex lover. Mysaria compliments her and makes her feel validated as a ruler, that clearly helps rhaenyra's wounded ego and she kisses her impulsively, almost like she's symbolically becoming daemon. It's a very interesting scene from a thematic and psychological point of view.
I only really have 1 big criticism with this episode being the seasmoke problem, dragons can't bond with a new rider until the current one is dead, which means leanor has died of screen which I find really unsatisfying and his fake out death in season one only exists to keep rhaenyras hands clean, they either should have just killed him in cold blood to inject some brutality to rhaenyra or have leanor come back and disguise himself and go under the name addam of hull, then you could set up some really juicy drama and Conflict with corlys, it also means rhaenyra knowingly sent the kingsgaurd to his death but the show won't be willing to dig into that The romantic angle with rhaenyra and the white worm I think was a little forced but that's a small criticism for me compared to the seasmoke issue
They might just not address the lore at all. Which would be a shame. I wondered if they might adjust it somewhat. Perhaps a rider can desert their dragon in such a way that the tie is severed and the dragon freed to bond with another if they so wish…
Is that rule written in stone though? Because I feel like it could just be the dragonrider bond fading after Laenor has been so far away for such a long time
I had some issues with seasmoke in this way but i also am wondering if maybe thats why seasmoke was restless? like the rider isnt dead and something feels off and seasmoke doesnt understand necessarily what this is and why he chased down laenors half brother because its SOMETHING. considering the reliability of dragon care is only left with what targs remember and they dont even understand half of them, i feel like it's a suggestion or expansion on how dragon/rider connections work, which is really interesting to me. even with magic, things are never as black and white as "dragons can/cant do xyz"
@@donttalktomebye I Interpreted seasmoke being restless as that being the point where leanor died off screen, but in the 10 years since the fake death, seasmoke never flies over to wherever in essos he is to find him? Personally I don't like the concept of being able to break a dragon bond while the human still lives I think that sorta breaks the magic soul bonding system with dragons, I do like the thought the seasmoke choosing his own rider, rather then being claimed he instead claims a rider and went out to find him as he's been scouting addam out so overall it's a mixed package for me but I think bringing leanor back would have been the better move
@@grumpysphinx4911 everything I've seen suggests is a for life thing and just not riding a dragon isn't going to break the bond and I think that would break the magic system if it did considering it seems to be a deep soul bond dragons get with riders, so I do consider is a set in stone rule
She's her father's daughter, and knows how to reel it in when everyone else is going crazy around her. Of course she's frustrated, because everyone holds her back because of her importance. I always hoped that she would tell Corlys and Rhaenys that their son still lived, perhaps they would not have taken so long to trust her. Well, now she's holding a sword, and she takes off on her dragon to confront Addam.
@mylittlethoughttree You're not wrong about Rhaenyra per se. The problem with the character, and others, stems from season One. After Rhaenyra became heir, she has worked ever since to prepare for the day of ascension. But, in episode Ten, Rhaenyra chose not to act in defense of her rights. She adopted a wait-and-see posture, which is mind boggling: she doesn't hold the Crown or the capital, and the enemy has had time to take other actions before the news of Viserys' death and Aegon's crowning came to light. In the real world, she was risking diplomatic isolation and strategic impotence. In the story, it's counter-productive -- Daemon had the right of it at that moment. If she wasn't going to fight for her Crown, why should anyone else? Any departure from the book's story is a different sort of criticism; though, not unimportant, isn't really applicable for this point.
I think it's me, but I've not quite understood what you mean. I'd agree she was hesitant early on and it costs her, and I see that as another reason for the gradual shift into a more impulsive and ruthless Rhaenyra
@@mylittlethoughttree I was addressing the reasons for why Rhaenyra is behaving the way that she is in season Two (and Ep. Ten of S One) by comparing and contrasting the character before/after episode Ten. It was not a logical shift, and it hurts the storytelling. On a different point, after rewatching your vid, making the SongFireIce prophesy into a plot point for Alicent and Rhaenyra was a mistake, because it changes their motivations from safeguarding/promoting their interests/power to mere loyalty to husband's wishes and duty to an esoteric, intangible prophesy. This is, in part, what I meant when i said that Alicent/Rhaenyra were sanitized for the tv show. In Seizing power and promoting interests at any cost is what Game of Thrones was about. The HotD dilutes that GoT quality that in part made that series so good.
@@mylittlethoughttree To offer another thought. While Daemon looks to be becoming a new man, showing emotion and being with his brother at the time of need, Rhaenyra, on the other hand, appears to be becoming more impulsive and ruthless, as you've already pointed out. She's taken up a sword and even accepted the embrace of Daemon's former lover, Mysaria. They're turning into the other. it looks like the writers decided to compare and contrast Rhaenyra and Daemon in juxtaposition, to set up, perhaps, a downward, self destructive spiral for Rhaenyra, but a heroic redemption for Daemon. The writers are trying to be Shakespearean.
She can’t just act because the capitol is held by her enemies and they have troops and dragons including Vhagar and Sunfyre. I imagine that’s why she hesitated both in the show and book. What was she supposed to do initiate a dragon battle over KL and destroy her capitol and potentially risk her own life?
@@mariapdr3261 The episodes are not consistent on this point. The Blacks do have ground forces -- they're not completely isolated on Dragonstone, yet it's also said that they lack ground forces, which is not strictly correct. it's also not an either/or -- dragon battle over King's Landing or passivity.
the source material told that Robert Baratheon had gone to fat and was a shadow of his youthful self, and the show gave us that Robert..the source material said basically the same about older Rhaenyra...why wont the show give us that Rhaenyra?
Honestly who cares if King V chose Rhaenyra as his heir or not. He was a bumbling old fool, too afraid or too lazy to do what needed to be done to nip this civil war in the bud years ago when the kids were bickering. He should’ve chose a proper, uncontroversial heir and prevented this whole war. Rhaenyra should’ve just taken her L like Rhaenys did and the realm would’ve been better off because of it. It’s never been about the person in the chair and it’s not about Rhaenyra, it’s about the realm.
Thinking the Realm is better off with male in charge and that’s the only way it could ever be is exactly the point of view Otto and the Hightowers are thematically criticizing. The “Realm” would have accepted a woman as heir, most of the lords would have, and the smallfolk adore her in the latest episode. We have every reason to believe the Targaryens could assert a female ruler through their dragon exceptionalism and the conflict would never have arisen, but Otto convinced Viserys to wed again because he wanted his grandchild on the throne. The “Realm” rejected an “unconventional” ruler because Otto spent decades eroding Rhaenyra’s legitimacy and she and her father didn’t take it seriously. Viserys should have taken every opportunity to proclaim at every royal event that Rhaenyra was his heir and nothing would change that, and that would equally have avoided the incredibly avoidable conflict.
I'd love to hear your opinions on the psychology of Katniss Everdeen and Even Peeta. But Katniss specifically, because she is so certain nobody sees her, or cares about her, and I think that's partially because of the movies. Meanwhile people are cheering for her, Peeta had taken a beating for feeding her. She does not hesitate to volunteer to take her sisters place in the games, and the whole time she's training she thinks she is so terrible, forgetful, etc. But she ends up scoring higher than kids who had trained their whole lives for this. Even in the games she tries not to kill anyone, she only ever killed one person and that was after he shot Rue (who was a Prim stand in for her, and the start of the uprising). I think she's genuinely very interesting. I cant put it all into words, not effectively anyway.
You've given me so much to think about in this video. Fascinating points, particularly about Rhaenyra slowly taking on the characteristics of Daemon. ♥️ The ideas 💡
The kiss wasn’t romantic or even sexual (if that makes sense). It was manipulation. Mysaria knew Rhaenyra was longing for positive reinforcement and love from Daemon. Emma even described the kiss as cathartic but not romantic. Rhaenyra was purging her emotions. While Mysaria’s words were probably genuine, her actions were very manipulative. Even Sonoya confirmed that some people want to think it’s love and that Mysaria is only looking out for herself. When the sh*t hits the fan, she’ll bail. The ominous music that played in the bg kind of tells me that it’s not a good thing.
Ok. This is one of the episodes that I enjoyed the most. I loved episode 4 because of the dragon fight, but here I loved all the dialogue. All the time, like, I laughed, I got stressed, like, I really enjoyed it. One of my favourite episodes so far for sure.
@@por5215 did you want Neds head cut off...did you want a 13 year old Joffrey to die violently from being poisoned...did you want Oberyn Martell to have his scull crushed in...how come you dont ..there seems to be a trend here...this is not Seseme Street
I had the pleasure of not watching when season 1 dropped so I got to binge watch all the way through season 2 episode 5 and I genuinely don’t understand why so many people are hating on Rhaenera when the show does such a good job setting her up and drawing parallels between her and Alicent. The one thing that I really like is showing how insane the Targaryen’s are in the sense that they carry themselves like other worldly beings around other people because of their dragons. On take this kind of earned sense of superiority and you can see why Rhaenera has been almost institutionalist about a civil war essentially taking the stance of “this was a mistake, I’m the queen, we don’t need to burn everything down over it.” Idk it’s just been nice watching someone who has been groomed to rule a kingdom with immense power try to do harm reduction on what they could easily see as an uprising as much as it is a coup.
The big lie humans have told themselves for millennia is that you can gain peace by making war. That's the lesson of this conflict. Great insights about the role reversal, when you point it out I really see it. The kiss doesn't work at all. Not only is it out of sync with Rhaenyra's character, you simply do not hit on your chief of staff. It was trauma bonding and inherently unhealthy at its best, but leaves Rhaenyra open to manipulation by Mysaria at its worst. And that's without touching on the issues around consent when there is this kind of a power imbalance.
I like this take on Rhaenyra, I do feel like she's been REALLY passive and I attributed it to her desire to keep what her father left her in tact, but I'm just dying to see her snap back cuz at this point, she's lost her son, Rhaenys, and her counsel is talking to her silly, so I'm looking forward to some messy retribution
People forget how GRRM writes thanks to the horrible ending of Game of Thrones. The Good ones lose, to win the Game of Thrones you have to be ruthless.
A good episode though not the best. I don't agree with all you've said, I like the stuff with the Greens more than the Blacks, things are a bit too stagnant on Dragonstone. I don't mind the stuff with Daemon as much as others I do feel it will ultimately have a lot of significance on the direction of his character. I think the dreams with Viserys should've been more interesting, bringing Paddy back just for that was underwhelming but maybe we'll get more with him next episode.
16:20 thought so too... it was too direct. I would expect this convo to be held in secret or not so out there because there are ears everywhere in Kinglsanding
I hope they save Aegon's arc until next season and do justice to his character..........as people are enjoying his growth this season (the ups and downs) and Rhaynera can just go, she is too boring TBH!
I feel like there are many people who just would like to hate Rhaenyra ,....and right now they dont have a good reason and that drives them crazy probably :D also Fire and Blood book is basically all rumors...there isnt a single thing that has been confirmed , book is "written" by three "historians" who all disagree and tell some crazy sh*it ...thats probably why this story is easier to adapt aswell...because we are not supposed to know what really happened , you can basically read the book and disregard some of the things these "historians" say about your favorite character and believe what you want to believe :D
@@HK-gm8pe rhaenyra has been castrated. We don't hate her, she is just not a very important part of the story since she went to dragonstone. Daemon is also pretty weak so far in season 2. We expected these characters to do something, anything really, but they aren't. All the moves are being made by the greens.
@@pepeepupooYES! People are so shallow. Rhaenyra has been neutered, much like Alicent this season. And at least, Alicent has juicy scenes, but Rhaenyra's storyline has been hella WEAK this season. Daemon's at least has been trippy. But honestly, Rhaenyra doesn't do much after Luke's murder in Fire and Blood, either. So it's not like I can blame them for it.
@flyingboat7507 well, politics change the way history is written for their advantage as well. the biggest and most recent example is Putin ordering school history books to be rewritten to picture Russia as something like the good guy in the war against Ukraine, with whatever reason he might think of even though it's such a complex situation
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ even though is frustrating to see rhaenyra being so tied down and unable to act, it makes sense in the end. as she mentioned, she's at an "impossible position"
The show has massively whitewashed Rhaenyra and her caused. The Dance of the Dragons was about human causes, two factions of the same family who failed to compromise and fought over power, tribalism and vengeance and another petty human desires. Not the good guys(with one bad apple) fighting for higher goal of defending the realm from doom and the evil scheemers(with one good apple we haven't even seen) fighting for power.
SHALLOW !... SHALLOW !... SHALLOW ! High school, Creative Writing 102 course; Secondary Character Building. Screen Writers of today are making themselves the story. Shows like the series "ARCANE" seem to be genious because they are written FOR THE AUDIENCE. EVERY NOVEL ADAPTATION, where the Screen Writers are given too much liberty, end in ruin. Deny D's "DUNE" 1 & 2 were pure genious because the director cared about the relationship between the audience and the story. Most stories today, (everything Disney) is failing because it's about the relationship of the screen Writer and their own social viewpoint. The writers are forcing their character into the story and the story is about themselves.
Finally a good take on Rhaenyra! The righteousness theme is getting picked up where Daenerys left it. Dictators always need to justify themselves. Even if they have to grasp for some future where they will save the people from winter😂 I love her arc its dope
You have a lot more faith in this show than I. I think theyre playing the girlboss daenerys arc straight. no heel-turn just a tragic girlboss heroine who died too soon. the problem with all this is that we already HAD this motivation happen in the season 1 finale. her "righteous" motivation for doing god awful things should be seeking justice for luke's death but at the same time the writers dont want her to be responsible for blood and cheese in any way so they were like "well she felt awful about that but it wasnt her fault it was daemon. daemon killing a baby calmed her down a bit" which really removes the tension of that last moment in season 1 and she goes back to being hesitant after Jaehaerys' death instead going full war-criminal. All of the fucked up things rhaenyra does in the books are either given to daemon to do completely on his own without rhaenyra knowing or they are being switched to a team green plot like the starvation of the city which is something rhaenyra does, not aemond.
To an extent, I agree. They could've cut out the middle-man, or middle-arc, and just had her go straight from her season 1 ending to being a ruthless, brutal Targaryen in season 2. It would've saved time, and I can see why it feels like a backtrack after the season 1 ending, so it is a valid point. Personally, I think it makes sense though. The Rhaenyra we saw all of season 1 is not likely to just suddenly become brutal at the death of her son. I mean she could've done but it's less fulfilling and organic than this slow change that has much more to do with the corrupting, seductive nature of power, than just being the plain old "I've turned to rage because I'm grieving" that you always see. There's more political edge to the arc we're getting. She was furious about Lucerys, then she saw how easily fury and revenge can go awry, and it horrified her. She wants to consider herself a good person, she wants to pretend blood and cheese isn't on her hands, and she is restless with how awry things go when she takes advice or delegates. Increasingly, she wants to do things herself because she is always right... except she's not. It's a fun parallel how much Alicent (for all her many faults) is now reflecting on guilt and self-doubt and regret, whereas Rhaenyra is defensive and turning numb to any behaviour she might feel guilt about. She is turning incredibly blinkered and resolute, and even directly trying to emulate Daemon, or her idea of who Daemon is. It's a much more fulfilling slow descent that I find so much more engaging and refreshing and honestly, the fact so few people seem to even notice the change, tell me they're doing a great job of slow, natural character progression. Rhaenyra thinks she is the hero, after all. I think with hindsight, assuming we do see her descend, people will look on this season a lot more favourably and will understand it better
i love this channel. i was one of the people who said this episode sucked but, you’ve changed my opinion. now, i wouldnt rate it a 9/10, i think that rook’s rest is much better television and was much more entertaining but anyway, i was most unhappy with rhaenerya this episode but i think you’re really onto it. the dichotomy between daemon doing nothing and rhaenerya kind of becoming daemon is beautiful.
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Interesting interpretation
Shouldn’t effect the plot or major story points, but still a interesting analysis
same poison destroyed Daenerys
I have a question.Could you do a psychology video about detective Elliott?Stabler from law and order.I'm curious to see what could you do with a video like this
I think you're right about Rhaenyra. The fact that she now thinks she HAS to unleash more dragons in this war "to unite the realm" is actually very scary. I think it's very in the spirit of GRRM's work if the prophecy leads to her undoing. Good intentions can be just as corrupting as bad ones.
That is the core of Stannis' cause and equating Rhaenyra's cause to Stannis shows how bad the writers messed up in adapting the stories and how much they whitewashed Rhaenyra. The Dance of the Dragons was about human causes, two factions of the same family who failed to compromise and fought over power, tribalism and vengeance and another petty human desires. Not the good guys fighting for higher goal of defending the realm from doom and the evil scheemers fighting for power.
It is kill or be killed with her. She cannot bend the knee to the Greens.
This is why, as someone who has read Fire & Blood, I’m alternately amused and frustrated by the people online who have taken this pro-green approach to the story and accuse the show of making Team Black the good guys. I think they are missing out on much of the nuances. This is not a good guys versus bad guys type of story. And before the end there should be enough atrocities on both sides to show that this story is a tragedy and there are no heroes here.
@@blackeyedlily no, they just made it a good guys (with one bad apple) vs bad guys (with one good apple that we haven't even seen because they considered cutting him from the show).
They removed the moral ambiguity from the books by giving Rhaenyra's cause a higher prophetic goal of saving the realm from the White walkers in contrast to Hightower scheeming. They spent whole episodes lecturing us how Rhaenyra is the greatest thing that can happen to Westeros in contrast to how much of a monster Aegon is.
This show also seems afraid to portray women having ambition and agency in an effort to whitewash them. It wouldn't kill the show that have an ambitious woman fighting for what she believes should be rightfully hers. Instead we have sanctimonious saints fighting for higher prophetic causes and people who only participated in coups because they misunderstood a dying man's words.
@@masterplokoon8803 do you not think those things you mentioned -- people fighting over delusions and misunderstandings -- make them bad people? Therefore not "saints"?
I would say "they are all high on their own supply", which is hardly saintly and is actually fairly true to real life.
Daenerys Targaryen basically did the same thing in Game of Thrones, too: decided her cause was righteous and therefore the ends justified the means, no matter how horrific. That didn't make her good at all -- in fact, the opposite.
And that's the point.
Larys and Aegon's scene actually made me excited about Aegon's arc moving forward
But Larys shedding a tear seemed beyond out of character.
@@danielwhitley4927 in this particular case I think it was pretty in character. With Aegon, Larys had direct power and was getting so close towards the top which is something he very clearly wants. Then for Aemond to belittle him and almost taunt him about not being chosen as his hand definitely set something off him. It’s not often that we see Larys’ personal life or goals be affected, but this is one a very few times we did.
@@danielwhitley4927I think Larys is a great actor. In real life, and in the show. I think it’s the beginning of a long term manipulation scheme. Larys can’t pull Aemond’s strings as easily. Maybe not at all.
This will not age well
@@makshay I hope it won't age well, still hyped thinking about Tom Glynn-Carney acting Aegon's comeback. It's gonna be fucking epic.
I think Rhaenyra is panning out to be a Paul Atreides in that she is painted as the hero against the evil villains until the audience sees the consequences of her actions when she has power.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
!!! yesss i feel like that’ll happen im starting to see how it’s panning out
I actually thought there were some parallels between ASOIAF and Dune. I kinda had my tin foil hat thoughts that the whole Aegon/Azor Ahai was similar to the Bene Gesserit and Paul/the deity they were trying to create - but might be just me haha
@@PistachioDeanThat totally tracks though!
@@PistachioDeanalways has been, I’m pretty sure George was inspired by Dune when writing ASoIaF
Anyone who feels morally justified in ALL of their choices (my way is the only right way) and lacks introspection or honest feedback from a trustworthy advisor (we all need a Davos Seaworth) will inevitably veer into becoming a monster. A big part of possessing a good moral compass is the awareness of your own fallibility, and the need to advice from a different, trustworthy perspective.
She seems to have that so far which is why Rhaenys supported her.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
Finally, someone who's reading between the lines instead of getting angry for what's seen on the surface. I love your take.
I think what makes Alicent such a tragic character for me is that I've never doubted that she loves her children, personally, even Aegon who she is horrible to. I think her having her children so young along with being catapulted into the role of Queen and losing her friendship with Rhaenyra made her resentful of them. But she's always tried.
She did try, but when she did she was clearly emotionally distant. Could be postpartum issues that CAN stretch out for years after a birth, could be her father and how he raised her, or a mixture of both. But being emotionally distant doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. I like the little moments she had, this episode. Her main priority during the mob scene was clearly on Helaena and trying to keep her safe. She definitely knows she messed up, and at least has a desire to maybe right a few wrongs but she's definitely realizing that her boys cannot be controlled.
It's sad, but i dont think she's a victim. Especially in the books. Here, the show is trying to make her look like one, but this whole time, she's been ambitious.
Rhenyra offered her many chances at peace. Even to bethrode her children so the house can be united.
Instead she chose to bethrode her "beloved" daughter to her awful son, who r*pes women and drinks.
Her son Aegon does not speak valaryan and no doubt has no knowledge about war or anything really... which was HER job to instill into her children. She didn't yet she "fights" for the realm to have a good rightful leader. She conspires with horrible people like Larrys. Resulting in many people's deaths. Innocent may i add. Like in episode 1 i think in season 2 when larrys came to tell her that her maids are giggling about her and cristom and larrys said...they no longer breathe our air. I do not pitty her at all. I think she is evil and anyone who cant see it is too naive to vote. Sure, she was under certain circumstances but you cannot blame it all on the people around her and never her. She made her choices in life and they ended up placing her where she is now.
A mother who can literally roll her eyes and walk away from her son who’s child just got decapitated instead of comforting him whatsoever……..that’s not trying.
You've explained her so well.
@@LucreziaMeztlyshe’s awful in the book. I do wish they talked about how she was as a mother because for blood and cheese, I mean her daughter visited her quarters every single night for the grandchildren to say good night so there’s so much information left out.
Really in the book she is just straight ready to plunge the realm into a devastating war (with damn dragons) and she *knows* Rhaenyra & Daemon aren’t gonna back down. Her and Cole were horrible.
I think the way the prophecy has been used is great, honestly. Rhaenyra wasn’t taking it seriously until it became another way for her to justify her campaign and her righteousness to herself. Had the Greens not usurped her and power transitioned peacefully, I feel like she wouldn’t have even bothered to tell Jace about it. The very future fate of the world only matters to these people when it affirms their world view. If anyone truly wanted what was best, you would think the Song would have been told to other leaders at the very least, but no, it’s the extra special secret in the back of the mind of the most powerful person in the world and their next of kin.
It does make me even more apprehensive about the idea of us ever getting an Aegon the Conqueror spinoff, though; everything about him seems so much more interesting to me as this long dead legend whose thoughts and intentions we can never truly know. If they do ever actually make it, how do they make it compelling?
They could make a conqueror show compelling by having the relationship between Visenya, Rhaenys and Aegon at its center. There is so much complicated stuff there. Made even more complicated by the long running theory that Aegon was infertile, meaning the Crown Prince, the direct link to every living Targaryen was actually a bastard. And in knowing that, Visenya used dark magic to make a baby with Aegon's DNA and created a monster also known as Maegor.
I think they can accomplish this and still keep Aegon more mysterious. His sisters, imo, were much more interesting. I think anything made would be heavy Visenya focused. We know the most about her because she lived the longest.
Knowledge is power. The Targaryen's only share this information with the heir. Jace was not heir to the iron throne until Viserys died, and that is when she told him. I don't think she's using this to justify her cause, she fully believes it herself. If she was using it, she would be telling others about it which she is not.
Rhae knowing without a doubt that her father chose her is what lit a fire in her. Makes sense.
I think the song of ice and fire being true in the mind of Viserys means he has the responsibility of not only choosing successors that will unite the realm till the winter comes but also lead to the birth of the prince that was promised.
You just have to show Harrenhall as slightly annoying or corrupt and await the entrance.
I never understood the "that kiss is terrible and unnecessary!" thing. It made perfect sense to me. Rhaenyra lost her father, her daughter, her son, her only female mentor, her husband in a matter of weeks. She is arguably losing this war which could only end in her death and the death of her children. Nobody understands her as a woman, nobody respects her as Queen. She feels helpless, isolated and lost.
Now here's a person showing support and reverence, pouring honey into her ear. How could Rhaenyra not be seduced?
I hate to be that person but I really do think it's subconscious homophobia. Writers always have to work twice as hard to get an audience to accept a queer romance and some people will still call it forced even if the tension is clearly there. If on some level you don't think queer sexuality is something that just naturally happens of course it's going to seem forced
@@spirithawk6580 JFC this nonsense of painting everyone who disagrees with you with the same ugly brush. You have to turn everyone else into demons just so you can sleep at night with your own idiocy. If you refuse to engage with people's actual thoughts and simply close your ears and "lalalala" the whole world, just admit it.
I have nothing against lesbian romance. I enjoy a good romance no matter who or what is part of it. This is NOT that. Read any of the comments about how gratuitously callous this scene is in the context of SA, how uncomfortable it feels. Be lucky that you yourself have clearly never experienced SA or threat of any kind if you can be so ignorant as to dismiss those people's POV as "subconscious homophobia"
Get out of here with your bigoted self.
As to the OP point, I do get where they THOUGHT they were going with it, and I could definitely see this kiss happening at another time if it were done with deftness and care. But these 2 characters/actors have no chemistry such that in the current state, especially after Mysaria just admitting so SA, this kiss comes across as so unwarranted and rather tasteless. If someone admits to SA you don't force a kiss onto them without any explicit discussion around consent.
I did not like it but I understand it. Rhaenyra is also a woman of fire and she is impulsive. She thinks she has lost her husband and feels that nobody respects her. She will cling to any sort of affection and comfort and that has been given by Mysaria at the moment. It could also work in the future as to why Mysaria betrays her? Mysaria also feels seen and respected by Rhaenyra, if Daemon and Nyra reconcile and get in the way of that close connection, perhaps Mysaria will try to create conflict between them to not lose her queen´s favour to Daemon. I don´t know it is a theory.
@@spirithawk6580not necessarily; it wasn’t in the books; the allusion to Renly Baratheon and Loras Tyrell’s relationship was in the books and was not a surprise in the show same as Lenore Valyrian. No one commented on those relationships being unnecessary. They were other homosexual relationships in the books as well. This one did not happen though. Some of us book nerds just get annoyed when too much creative license is taken when adapting books to screen. That’s all 😊.
@@shaeyager8165Okay, but Rhaenyra and Laena's relationship in the book was heavily queer-coded. Why do "book fans" forget about that? The book is written from the pov of Maesters and historians, who would have no way of knowing what was happening behind closed doors between Rhaenyra and Mysaria. Also, the author of the books himself, GRRM, is a co-creator on the show. If he felt certain plot points were forced or unnecessary, he would've made his displeasure known, as he has done countless times before. Also, it's funny to see "book fans" complain about Rhaenyra and Mysaria's relationship, whereas no one seems bothered by how Rhaenyra and Alicent's entire dynamic was changed from the books to the show. And how important characters like Maelor and Kermit Tully have been completely erased.
Rhaenyra is getting a lot of the character development that Cersei got in the book that we didn’t get to see in the show. The freedom and power that men have is what she wants to have, not in a necessarily trans way except that the behaviors are unacceptable only because of their bodies being female.
It’s framed as off putting when she drinks and is cruel and takes lovers like a man, finally relishing the power she believed should have been hers as the eldest of only she hadn’t been a woman. There was so little difference between her and Jaime until they were teens (same as Jahaerys and Jahaera being indistinguishable).
They’re right that the realm won’t allow a woman to rule because the behaviors required to rule are seen as unacceptable in women. It’s recursive.
the negative reviews on this episode genuinely shocked me, because i also felt this was the strongest episode this season
I was completely surprised by the reviews
RUclips chanels the push out reviews withing hours of the episodd dropping are a busniess model not true content@@greybeaver8300
I was surprised too, but people in general seem to have liked episodes 3 and 5 more than this one, when those episodes were heavily meh.
In stark contrast to this one, who was awesome.
I'm baffled.
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ Yeah, I mean, personally, I like this episode as much as I like episode 3. The dialogue and the character building episodes are usually my favourite, but because of one scene at the end, it leaves a weird taste in my mouth. In episode 3, it was Rhaenyra meeting up with Alicent and in episode 6, it was Rhaenyra and Mysaria kissing, which seemed unnecessary since the characters didn't previously give off romantic chemistry before, in my opinion. Episode 5 was still my least favourite because it focused too much on Daemon's boring plot in Harrenhal and I just think that episodes 5 and 6 could've easily been combined into one episode since they were both a lot slower than I would've liked. It's taken a lot longer to get to the Dragonseed auditions than I thought, and that kinda annoyed me, but oh well, at least its finally coming in episode 7.
You don't need to look further than two women kissing to understand why the episode is getting bad reviews. The hate of difference is still going strong in this world.
Kissing Mysaria after a brutal rape story was a little weird for me.
Rape turns Rhae on
Rhaynera's character is so boring, but they made her the lead of the show so they must now keep up and add unnecessary spice 🤡
I don't think we're meant to see it as a good thing. The music itself was incredibly ominous
@@mylittlethoughttree To me, it was on par with Aegon choosing to work with Larys, and Daemon "surrendering" to Alys' influence.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
One of the things that I liked about the kissing scene is that first, Rhaenyra seems to be physically attracted to those who show an inkling of respect of her position and character (Harwin was the only one who looked favourably at her when she hunted that boar and he didn't admonish her when he found her in the streets of King's Landing; Daemon who liked the more rebellious aspect of her and now Myssaria who reinforces her the idea that she is the Queen and that is actively helping her) and secondly how she is taking on the facade of Daemon (holding a sword, taking more risky decisions and now seeming to start a relationship with Myssaria).
bro this is all invalid at the fact that this isn't even something the writes chose to contribute to Rhaenyra's story. It was a decision made by the actress, because she in fact is queer herself. so of course she would want to plant queer ideologies into Rhaenyra's character. If this was from the books or the writers chose to do, I would entertain theories behind the reasoning, but there is no reasoning at all for the kiss. It was decision made by the actress herself.
@@Meep413this is not a book with one author my guy, there IS a book for that, but with a tv show acting choices are valid if the director and editors like them, sorry 🤷
@@Meep413 an adaptation is an adaptation nonetheless, if you think that the actor/actress ideas shouldnt contribute to character development, look at a character like jack sparrow
@@chrisrubin6445 I’m just saying if you want to dig deep into the kiss, you really won’t find anything to justify it considering it was a whim decision by the actress
@@joseepp1712 if they agreed with it obviously it made the cut right? All I’m saying however is that there is no in-depth analysis needed to look into that scene considering the choice was made by the actress. And they discussed how they didn’t want it to seem like it was queer bating, at least they had the sense to be aware of that, but at the end of the day it’s hard not to see it that way, when the actress came up with it, and we know that Emma is queer herself so, it checks out why she would encourage the scene with Rhaenyra.
Watching Aemond as Prince Regent is an absolute delight. Ewan Mitchell's anime villain vibes are reaching new all time highs lmao. I love this man. Also seeing someone finally call out Larys on his bullshit was genuinely both chilling and satisfying.
His opening scene was captivating!
You can see hints of the madness and rage beneath. When she slaps dude, when she ruminates with the sword in her hand. She was about to let loose in her vent w/ Jace who unknowingly derails her with the mother talk. The way R is being played by her actor is amazing. I really cant wait until she lets the anger through. Such a better progression into madness. I feel she will be controversial by season 3.
Madness is a bit of a strong word. She's been repeatedly disrespected by people who swore to serve her, her husband/uncle had a toddler decapitated, refused to admit to it and peaced off with one of her biggest assets, her remaining living son still relies on said husband/uncle more-so than her, she just made a big blunder and is frustrated about it, she lost a guiding figure who was one of her only steady allies, and she basically feels backed against the wall with a war to win. The slap is not an ideal emotional reaction, but I do take slight offense with "madness" being the default response whenever a woman ruler shows less than perfect emotions. It is kind of a pattern in this IP/fandom, and I wish it wasn't as prevalent.
I think she's ashamed of her more violent thoughts and impulses ans tries to contain them. She is ashamed and puts the sword down when Mysaria comments. She seemed so when she called for Aemond Targaryan. The more she contains herself the more monstruos it will be later. Perhaps that is what was poorly portrayed in Daenyrys
@@JohnnyCatFitz agreed. The actor will really blow this away.
Why is the claim that a significant number of Targaryens were “mad” STILL a thing? Bc they weren’t, not in the slightest.
@@daniig62 maybe this is the beginning.of it ?
I'm with you on this. Raynese said it best...she's the only one exercising restraint and Alys Rivers said the crown is a burden to bear. She's right for the throne. I love this.
Don´t forget Raenyra is a sexual predator. She abuses all those inferior to her Criston, Misarya, Harwing & Laenor for her own sexual gratification. But she doesn´t abuse Daemon or Alicent.
don’t really care about team green or black, but i appreciate that you speak with empathy and without favouritism for both.
I think its highly relevant that Rhaenyras yearning to be a warrior figure, a protector, a righteous wielder of power, hasnt been validated in this show since Alicent did it when they were young. It's no surprise that Mysaria validating her in similar ways to how Alicent did (even saying that she would make a good queen, exactly what got Rhaenyra blushing and looking at the ground in 1x8), lead to this surge in confidence and also a resurgence of her sort of. awkward teenage behavior. It's fascinating.
Remember Maester Aemon’s words in GOT, “ A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing” in relation to the changes we’re seeing in Rhaenyra -> she’s a monarch but she’s isolated in a very stressful and almost impotent situation on Dragonstone…maybe this is the beginning of a transformation with awful consequences for all.
Great video, as always
Agree! She's spent the entire season building a case for the justification of invoking the nuclear option, which I think will add a lot of weight to the inevitable carnage to come. Adding Daemon back into the mix will also ratchet up the tension. Episode 6 was my favorite so far, as far as character development. I'm amazed that they've managed to make us both sympathize with and despise Alicent. She made the bed she's in, but it's still hard to watch her get completely gutted and sidelined, by her own kids no less.
The kissing scene was a tad ominous with that music playing. Rhaenyra is being played.
People are calling Aegon a fool, but she is the same...........they both are clueless. Viserys taught nothing about the throne to any of his children..........except that one story which will not help anyone in this war.
@@Mmm-nj5dk That story undermines both Rhaenyra and Alicent. It changes their motivations from the, focused on power, ruthless women, that they were in the book, to a much softer depiction. I wonder if this was a deliberate attempt to sanitize them to be appealing to a modern crowd, "That could be my Mom."
I was/am very nervous for R, but I'm glad she got someone to connect with even if only for a bit
Beware knives at your back Queen 👑
@@DarthPlato Yeah true, but they don't stop there. They make Daemond and Aegon monsters for no reason. There was no wife killing, Grape and children fighting pits.........Daemond was good to his daughters and Aegon did not graped......this greatly affects the plot.
@@Mmm-nj5dk I didn't read the book. I was not making that kind of comparison. I was strictly addressing the in-story inconsistencies -- to put mildly -- of the tv version, again, without any regard to who these characters were in the book.
Honestly I realy like, that there are always paralels betwen Aegon and Rhaenyra, in this part of the story for example both of them get ignored and disrespected by their own council, and the only person who comes to them and says that they belive in them are their spymasters. And both of them use this opportunity to manipulate the monarchs and gain more power. Larys tries to use him being a criple too, so Aegon thinks that they are similar, so he will trust him more. And Mysaria does the same thing. I do not belive it for a moment, that she was honest with Rhaenyra, she was probably trying to get more power same way Larys was.
I loved Rhaenyras character because of the fact that she loses the plot. She represents the darkest most deranged side in all of us who are constantly trying to figure out the motives of those around us. The paranoia and distrust she goes through. The idea that we are all the good guys in our own story. Losing herself in attempts to claw back her power reflects the struggle that we all go through to gain status and money.
We all start off similar to the “realms delight” but as we grow the “black queen” creeps in. Of course we try our best to steer away from that path but man is it fun to watch someone else do it. Characters like Rhaenyra are a release from that fantasy. The same way I appreciated Dany’s plot. Although very rushed and not executed the best, I did enjoy living vicariously through her and her rage. Maybe I just like angry characters idk lol.
I don't know if we "all" "let the Black Queen creep in" as we get older.
Personally, I was a bit of a selfish s**t as a child (most kids are!) and have been improving myself as a person throughout adulthood. I'm an objectively better person at age 37 than I was at age 27 and hope to be even better at 47. In my opinion, that's the point of being alive.
I also don't always find it fun to watch characters embrace rage. It makes me hurt for them, and for those they hurt.
Except for characters like Aemond, Daemon, and sometimes Aegon II, who are charismatic arseholes and wouldn't fool most people into thinking they were the good sort in real life.
@@joywagner979 I am the opposite, I enjoy watching them break for some reason.
It's very satisfying to see a character rage after trying very hard to be the voice of reason, and having others now suffer the consciences of not listening.
Thank you, 🙏 finally a well-thought analysis of Rhaenyras character. Finally someone is making the connection that she is trying to copy daemons behavior - even going so far by kissing his former lover. This als reminds me a lot of Cerceis behavior in the books where she trys to copy her father in his ruthlessness (and fails) and also copying Robert's drinking and feasting. So this is actually very in line with tropes established in George rr martins books.
Brilliantly put. I wish more people would see it. Like I think it's fair enough fire and blood book readers don't like change, but surely we can at least engage with the story they're trying to tell before we dismiss it? I don't understand how everyone seems to think she's being portrayed as the embodiment of all virtue
It might have been significant when the smallfolk man stole a bag of food from another guy. Perhaps everyone acting on that same desperation will erupt in more chaos and violence, leading to massive death in Kingslanding?
Maybe Rhaenyra gets the logistics wrong on her gifts and causes unnecessary suffering
I really hated that moment, this is not the same game of thrones show I remember from years ago.
@@golagiswatchingyou2966Why’d you hate it?
Yes! Everyone who has claimed the characters are "too good", apparently have different ideas than I do of what "good" is.
The show clearly wants you to root for the blacks, even all the diversity hires are for the blacks while the greens are all meh white people, except for the grand measter who is not exactly on board.
im starting to think people really just want to see dragons ripping each other apart each episode when its clear they're building a lot in place for season 3
i understand them putting nettles storyline with rhaena bc its pointless to add more characters in a tv show format in the way they are in the books.
people also forget that the book is supposed to be an unreliable secondhand historical account. The show is essentially creating a secondary canon (or daresay a fun fanfiction that is approved as a type of canon by GRRM)
some of the episodes have been slower than id like but i REALLY like that they're taking their time with this and letting us see the progression--something we didnt get with dany's "madness" and other things
Nobody wants to wait another two years for things to actually happen when the stakes have been the same more or less for most of the season. We already knew Daemon had issues, loved Viserys but was conflicted, but we had four episodes in Harrenhal. Rhaenyra has done almost nothing. People just want things to DEVELOP. It’s boring to hear the same things said over and over again: “Rhaenyra can’t go to war!” “The Riverlands are contested!!”
Two years between season one and season two, and if you summarized episode six and five, episode five didn’t need to be a full hour. Hopefully the next two episodes are actually good.
I am liking this season for what it is, but it has been heavily weak and build-up for things that I doubt will ever occur.
House of the Dragon may have started its decline, inherently because of the flaws of the source material.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Though, I must say having another season of setup for the future seasons is kind of annoying. Like, it seems to me that Season 3 will be where most of the major events happen (Battle of the Gullet, First Tumbleton, Fall of Dragonstone, Battle Above the God's Eye), like it's kind of a lot to pack into one season while Season 2 only really had the Battle of Rook's Rest and whatever is supposed to happen in the finale. IMO, they really should've just left the Gullet and the Fall of King's Landing in Season 2, but it's whatever atp
In other words they want to see dragon cruelty...dragon on dragon violence.
@@Larissa-up7lu The show is in a tough spot, because Rhaenyra basically does nothing in the Dance.
She complains and gets fat like her father then does an ill conceived siege on King Landing.
its really nice to watch your view as a fellow (generally) unspoiled viewer
absolutely absurd how many other channels just spoil what’s going to happen without even giving warnings.
I also really liked this episode. Yeah the last scene felt weird and kind of came out of nowhere, but the music in that scene kinda indicated for me that this was not a positive scene and that Mysaria might use Rhaenyras longing for appreciation for her own ends. If thats true, then the scene will be perfectly fine but well have to see
Rest of the episode was pretty stellar to me, the cinematography and production design is just amazing.
Yeah, the music clearly shows that this scene is not just mutual lust but the beginning of something very disturbing. I love it!
I have read all the books front to back and I think you're EXACTLY right. This entire conflict is supposed to be complicated and there IS no good and evil. The ones who are truly innocent and suffer are the smallfolk, as ever. This has been a core tennant of George's works and I don't think the show has forgotten it yet. I do think some of the writers are struggling to navigate this arc for Rhaenyra - but episodes like this one and S2E2 absolutely shine. People want to reduce it down to "Ryan Condal is team black and therefore makes everybody on team black good and sympathetic and everybody on team green awful and monstrous" and it just isn't true. Alicent, and even Aegon are absolutely sympathetic characters, trapped in a cycle of abuse and neglect. Rhaenyra is a good mother, but still put her children in danger, still chose to go to war, and I feel like Matt Smith is so charming and charismatic that people forget what an absolute toxic monster Daemon is.
Book Rhaenyra is very one note, a spoiled ugly woman who is bloodthirsty and full of rage. The women in F&B are often written with this negative bias (Alicent is just as vindictive and cruel) unless they are especially pious and chaste. This is simply because Fire and Blood is written by maesters who weren't there, and the citadel is pretty misogynistic generally. It isn't meant to be taken as fact, and I think the show would suffer if they went that direction. It's honestly a little off-putting how bloodthirsty some viewers seem to be - they seem to want Rhaenyra to ride out and just burn king's Landing to the ground. This might be a war but this story isn't about that.
I think the issue is more how for example the killing of vaemond is pushed of to daemon and how the laenor thing is handled. Changing that characterization could hardly be because FB is propaganda.
You're so smart! Like when you brought up the whole caged insect and then the imagery of her surrounded by the columns, always framed by guards on each side, and then in the wheel house with Helaena it all clicked! It's so subtle by the cinematographers but well done!
Glad I'm not crazy. I really liked this episode aside from the implications around Rhaena (if you know, you know...)
I was slightly disappointed with the battle of Rook's Rest after it was hyped up by the fandom (I also have not read Fire & Blood) It was a good episode, but everyone seemed to love that episode. And then the past two episodes so many people complaining about how slow the show is or complaining about stuff like the Rhaenyra kiss, etc. While the battles and super dramatic stuff is great, ASOIAF has always been about the characters and politics. That's what the past two episodes were all about and I love it.
You were disappointed with Rook’s rest……? But really liked episode 6? That’s wild.
@@danielwhitley4927 It was so hyped by book readers, so maybe I was just expecting too much. It was a good episode, but thought it would have been better. Plus there were other issues I had with the episode like how Vhagar somehow got a stealth kill on Rhaenys despite Vhagar basically being Godzilla with wings and the battle taking place on a clear sunny day... It reminded me of when D&D said Dany just sort of forgot about the Iron Fleet. Like what....? Did they storyboard this episode, or did they just wing it?
And while I really like Rhaenys, I thought the final shot of her letting go of her reigns and falling was a bit cheesy...
Also, I know Aegon survives in the book apparently, but the show did a shit job explaining how he fell hundreds of feet and survived--in the next episode, we find out that the only fall injury he really seemed to sustain was a broken leg... the rest was burnt flesh. I doubt the book goes into detail as to how Aegon survived, but the show seems to have just literally given him plot armor because Valyrian steel armor protects you from fall damage I guess.
Episode 6 isn't perfect, but it also wasn't being hyped as a major thing, so maybe that helped. I think people are overlooking the issues with the Rook's Rest episode because it had a big dragon battle, plus it was dramatic with a major character death. But I thought season 1 did this same thing 1000x better, with Aemond vs Luke. That dragon confrontation wasn't as action packed, but it was much more emotional and logically made sense.
@@CosmicPotato Sunfire protected Aegon. That's why he survived the fire and the fall.
@@CosmicPotato There were definite problems with Rook's Rest, I really believe they do things like that because a lot of viewers don't mind it and prefer the dramatic effect. But what I liked about it wasn't the battle, it was still about the characters. The build up of what actually drove Aegon to go there. The duty and/or strength of Rhaenys to return and risk death, which is very inspiring to me..... and I value it enough to look past the problems. I think the fall was very meaningful too, and seems to resonate with a lot of viewers. Rhaenys isn't even a regular, core character, and still people seem to have been extremely attached to her, which is a credit to how much that character could be endeared to viewers even with much less screen time.
So - to me/ the way the moment played out in the episode we just had felt off. Mysaria had just vulnerably shared about the horrific s%#ual abuse she suffered as a child- at the hands of the person who was supposed to protect her- her father. Back in season 1 Mysaria had said she saught liberation from fear in being with Daemon. I believe - based on that and her focus on protecting the vulnerable abused children and by championing the empowerment of the “small folk” Mysaria is consciously or unconsciously driven by that experience she had. She shared with Rhaenyra her most vulnerable truth - a core experience where she was in a power dynamic in which the person who held more power (her dad) over her (as a small child) took her based on HIS desire. Then Rhaenyra (a Queen who in the show has done this in season 1 with Criston Cole - and believe me I hate his character so I’m not biased) responds by initiating a kiss with Mysaria. The fact that it was Rhae who initiated this… To me is an important detail. She may not have been thoughtful of the power dynamics here but she should have been because Mysaria has just told her - you are treating me as an equal. Then Rhaenyra follows a vulnerable share as Mysaria begins to trust her (after she just shared its hard to trust) with an act of desire. It would feel - if I were Mysaria- like an instant betrayal and a revelation of Rhaenyra’s true character. It would make me feel like Whelp - there goes my trust.
At least - from the way it was acted by Mysaria actress - I saw no indication of desire on her part.she just surrendered to the moment. Though we didn’t see her face as the camera angle was facing Rhaenyra. Perhaps Mysarias survival instinct came in when she kissed her back? Perhaps she did want it? We can’t be sure. But it felt like a very off moment to me. It would not be shocking to me if she used that moment of kissing Rhae back as an attempt to shift the power dynamic again - in her favor.so that’s why it would not be a surprise if the show goes in the direction of Mysaria betraying Rhaenyra. It would be more obvious to me that she would after this moment.
I wonder if this was the actors and directors trains of thought too or if they are oblivious about how that could be the perception. I will bank on it being intentional if they address the way it happened again somehow on the show.
I don't think an advance like that (one I don't think you can clearly and uncomplicatedly attribute to one party over the other) after a traumatic disclosure automatically makes it unethical.
Desire and trauma are intimately connected in all sorts of dark and disturbing ways, just ask the psychoanalysts.
This is a difficult point to bring up and discuss given the delicacy of the subject, but I believe the show depicted the moment well - it was both disturbing and deeply intimate.
Opening oneself up to another and disclosing trauma forms bonds and yes, stirs the libido. See Daemon and his mother. You can call it toxic and unhealthy, but to write it off as unrealistic or insensitive writing is missing the dark reality of human desire.
Also, if I'm to put my foot down on one point, I'd say there was Objectively desire coming from Mysaria.
I say that emphatically as it is all too common for people to see victims of SA as nothing but trauma, denying their s3xual autonomy. A sad second wound. (One that is incidentally neatly mirrored in Larys' scene)
It is possible to have trauma and still be able to desire. Mysaria is a survivor not a victim.
@@por5215 I think it depends on the specifics of what her relationship to Rhaenyra might mean. If it is truly a repeat of hers with Daemon, then it won't be positive. I don't think that's what she feels it is yet, and I think you're right, she was engaging with the kiss and it might feel positive for her now, but what the behaviour reflects of Rhaenyra's changing character is likely negative and it will be interesting to see what kind of relationship does progress. Will it be one based in equals, or will it warp into the very thing Mysaria is hopeful Rhaenyra stands against
@@mylittlethoughttree agree! You're right, the power dynamics at play are not to be ignored! Loved your thoughts, awaiting eagerly your future musings!
Everyone has made interesting points
I want to make clear my point that I’d shared in my post above. Rhaenyra initiated the kiss. We didn’t see Mysarias face as that was happening. The camera focused on Rhaenyra. To me that is an important detail in the story telling. Since the director chose to make the camera angle focus Rhaenyras face at the moment of initiation- it was about Rhaenyra. We don’t get to see Mysaria in that moment. We see her response. I said in my post I don’t know if she wanted it or not. I did not definitively say Mysaria was a victim. In fact I feel her character has proven so far she is not. She very much is a survivor who is very aware of power dynamics and who chooses to work those dynamics. (I am thinking of her conversation with Otto in season one and also of her reflection on that conversation when she says something like they didn’t like that she bared her teeth. I’m wondering if post that conversation- when she shows her hand or makes herself seem vulnerable - is it actually a power move? I am curious to see what the show will tell us in time on that.)
I also want to clarify I didn’t say it was poorly handled by the director. I was saying I am wondering where they will go with it - as I think they are very much paying attention to details. At least I hope they are. I am pretty sure they are. I hope they weren’t oblivious to how this could be perceived.
Ayyo, I haven't seen anybody talking about this in regards to the depiction of Rhaenyra, but I've been thinking a lot about how she isn't being portrayed as a 'good guy' but rather as a different kind of bad person, and the fan base seems to think that if she isn't a power hungry murderer, then she must be a moral Paragon?
I think Rhaenyra is really becoming much clearer through these recent episodes as a much more dangerous parent than even Alicent, passing on her abuse and trauma directly to the next generation... But in a way that the show seems not to want to confront. These last few episodes have both had scenes with Rhaenyra spousifying poor sweet Jacerys and they've been some of the harder scenes to watch in this show. With Blood and Cheese, with the dragon murders, with Larys' foot fetish scene, it was clear the show knew this was bad and was painting it as creepy. But watching Rhaenyra twist her son into being responsible for her emotional needs, into play -acting as a partner to her... While triumphant music swells and the marketing talks about how she's the good mom? HAUNTING.
Rhaenyra is drowning, flailing for her emotional needs to be met, and she keeps extracting them from extremely vulnerable people who she OWES emotional control to. Rhaenyra has become an abuser this season and it's freaking me out that anyone - her fans or her detractors - could say that she's being painted as a good guy! Moms are not supposed to dump their emotional needs into sons! Bosses are not supposed to dump their emotional needs on their workers (and definitely shouldn't kiss them, especially when they just talked about their own history of abuse).
Needless to say I am loving this boring, terrible show right now 😅
I agree with what you're saying for the most part, but it's not like Westeros has therapists to dump onto. And she's not just any boss, she's the Monarch, all of her needs are to be filled by the people around her, including the emotional ones.
I think having important, deep conversations with the heir to the crown who is a young ADULT man while they're at a time of desperate war, she's short on other reliable adults with a stake on the situation, and he's the second most important person in this whole thing, isn't "abuse".
You are not at all alone in your thinking! The tavern scene and many of the scene transitions this episode were pretty jarring. And I feel it’s a disservice to Addam to (possibly) only start “filling out” his character now that he’s a dragon rider.
I also felt the writers, like so much of GOT, “just” use (and misuse) the abuse acted out upon it’s characters. In this case, most pointedly, Mysaria.
Also, why would there not be any amongst the small folk who could see the “gift” for what it was? Manipulation and just another way in which they get hurt!
@@SEHmmmmmmever hear “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth” ? They are starving and literal boatloads of fresh food just entered the city. They’ve got bigger problems to worry about
@@morganhunt8051 Sure. But enjoying the spoils doesn’t mean you can’t *also* recognise and comment on it being a trick and that, for all the immediate satiation, it will still make shit worse in the long run. Not everyone will have believed it to be a sign of Rhaenyra actually caring about them.
What bothered me is that Seasmoke chased him down and claimed him.
And many were not tickled by this?
I thought Addam would tame Seasmoke the same way Aemond with Vaghar, for example. Or how Nettles tamed Sheepstealer in the source material.
But Seasmoke, all of a sudden, starts chasing him... why, specifically?
Why now? Why him and not Alyn or Corlys?
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ It was a bit jump scare puppy! But we have seen Seasmoke flying overhead before so maybe not so sudden… Maybe once Addam will be fleshed out enough to understand the reason why him. Well, I hope so.
I do get what you’re saying but I’m not completely sure that saying “calm”, or feeding them sheep, is much of a show of taming either!
This is was definitely one of my favorite season 2 episodes thus far (though Rhaenyra The Cruel still takes my number one slot).
I think the people criticizing Rhaenyra for being too soft are honestly just ignoring her characterization in the first season. The woman we met in season 1 wouldn't immediately turn into a tyrant after Luc's death. And what would be so exciting about that anyway? I'd rather that character arc take its time. Even as a non-Fire and Blood reader, I can already tell that Rhaenyra is slowly going down a darker path. And I'm happy at how slowly that change is occurring. We do NOT need another Danny mad queen arc, where multiple seasons worth of character development is shoved into about three episodes.
Just my two scents.
Couldn't agree more! I get the argument that it'd be quicker pacing to have her descend after season 1. I get that her ending there made it seem like that's what would happen...but I find the time they're taking provides more depth, is more fulfilling, and the slower pace suits better for the most
I love how Rhaenyra and Alicent's character development has been handled. Alicent is really reflecting on her own actions and failures, and being very brutally honest with herself in the midst of the world unraveling around her. Whereas Rhaenyra responds to these events with anger, violence, self pity and horniness. Even Daemon is developing more than her
horniness?..so you excuse Alicents adultery, ..the Queen mother bedding the Hand of the King...which in this world would be high treason and punishable by death?
@@thebruisedkind5345 When did I say I was excusing anyone's behaviour? Almost every character has committed grave sins and crimes at this point, and have contributed to this horrible conflict. I'm just saying that some characters are reflecting on their actions with regret and honesty, and some are not. Seriously, does everything in this world have to be polarized now? Go touch grass
I think their characters are easily the worst part of the show.
@@natedogg890 When did I say I was excusing anyone's behavior? ...when you didnt point out Alicents "horniness" which was much much worse, in this world, than Rhaenyras kiss...what Alicent did, in this world, would be considered treason and punishable by death
On the surface it's easier to see her like a good person, the audience's anchor, and in some ways, she is, but as she admits herself, she wanted to be like Daemon, who is a terrible role model. Like him, she sort of causes a lot of her own problems but doesn't see it that way. Shes just like people in the real world in that way; I don't think I know anyone who doesn't side with team black. Who doesn't want to think they are doing the right thing all the time, especially when they have prophecy, power and family behind them? I would think I was right if I were Daenerys or Rhaenyra too.
I can’t believe you talked about how great this episode is without ONCE talking about how great SEA SMOKE was in this episode!!!
As a book nerd, I don't have too much of a problem with Rhaenyra's characterisation. At least I don't agree with those complaints. I think in the books she is stronger. The sexism angle they've introduced for mirroring purposes doesn't make sense. I can't see Rhaenyra putting up with that for a split second. The lords who support her are also going to be the least sexist and or biggest believers in her. I think it ties in with the second part, in the books she's more self assured. I'm struggling for the right words to express my meaning. She has a moral certainty that she is in the right and that a great crime has been done to her. She gets her strength from that. I think that also makes her a better leader than we're seeing in the show. She's also more emotional and angry. At least that's my feelings. In Game of thrones either the actors or show runners decided that strength equals being emotionally bottled up and restrained, a bit like the British monarchy. The dead pan monotone deliveries. I feel that's being continued a bit.
I got taken out of the episode early with the confirmation of the erasure of nettles. It feels so wrong to cut such an important character. It whiffs of racism a bit. Nettles being black and not being a Targaryen, probably, and not being noble but becoming a player based on her wits is a much more important and progressive story than making the Velaryon's black and having only Valyrians be able to tame dragons.
On a positive note Matt Smith was amazing.
With all the Velaryons and associated bastards already being black, I think they felt safer in cutting out Nettles despite her being the only black character in the book. From a tv perspective, it also makes sense to use Rhaena. We already know her and she has little else to do for most of the war, while Nettles would be yet another addition to an already large cast that is also controversial (because of the Daemon thing, which could be better if we KNOW he's with his daughter, not lover) and isn't needed from the "can non-Targs even ride dragons?" perspective since they're already doing that with Alyn and Addam.
@@g_wylde I've heard the excuses and I don't buy them.
I think it's darkly ironic that the main victim of the white show runners virtue signalling is a black female who succeeds through merit. That feels really icky to me.
The age thing I keep seeing people in the comments mention is no different to Dany and Drogo, Alicent and Viserys, Leanna and Rhaegar. I'm not sure why there's a difference this time. Obviously they'd have to age up Nettles as they have every other time. The affair is kind of important as it's the final betrayal of their marriage. I'm not sure a father going off with his daughter has any impact at all, unless they're going incestuous with it.
The Addam and Alyn point, you've mis quoted me since they are Valyrians. Having a normal person break through into a world of nobles and their bastards means so much more. ASoIaF is an anti monarchy story. So nettles not being of the bloodline as far we know is important. She also contrasts the other dragon riders in so many ways.
I think the Rhaena actress is really good. But a character should not have more importance because of their last name. At least for me that detracts from their importance to the story. It adds absolutely nothing and takes away from something that is different and unique. If anything it's condescending to the audience.
I really love this idea, and it would honestly be so tragic. In the latest Inside the Episode, Emma Darcy had said that we are starting to see Rhaenyra exhibit signs of fanaticism, such as when she willingly sent Darkling to death to get another dragon rider. I think they are probably alluding to the same idea you have
willingly? i mean she did warn him that there is a very good chance he would die, so to me that felt like his choice. unless you’re saying she lied about his targaryen heritage?
I agree! Easily one of the best episodes, when I heard people disliked it I was genuinely shocked
@@ImPallasAthena I’ve so far not found the negative reviews and I’m curious
Can you direct me to a couple?
If anyone hurts Helaena I will riot
IDC that you haven't read the original source material, but it's been clear that Rhaenyra's narrative this season is based on how she didn't have anything major she did in the book at this point. After her miscarriage, she spent a while recovering and didn't become a player in the war officially until later. This is why the writers are trying to find something to do with her. The problem is, it's a backtrack from where we left her at the end of Season 1. Season 1's conclusion heavily implied that upon hearing about Luc's death, she had a smoldering rage that was ready to explode. That all vanished in Season 2 with 0 explanation. There was no dialogue, no mention, no hint at for whatever reason Rhaenyra's anger at the death of her son went away.
Trying justify Rhaenyra's sudden (and it was sudden) attraction to Mysaria shows why this was a poor/weak/lazy bit of writing. Mysaria throughout this season has garnered HEAVY plot armor from the writers. Her excuses/answers do not reflect the proper consequences. Rhaenyra should STILL have Mysaria imprisoned for the clear and obvious side she took with the Hightowers (simply saying she had to survive at best means she cannot be trusted to do anything other than helping herself). The amount of stupid luck the writers gave her to see Erryk Cargyll walking onto Dragonstone IN HIS OWN ARMOR and use that to justify Rhaenyra's trust in her is very poor writing compared to everything else going on this season. Now, if they're using Rhaenyra's trust of Mysaria to show she is making yet another stupid move, then this is all fine as it highlights Rhaenyra's massive naivety and her clear poor choices when it comes to physical intimacy.
I don't think it's a backtrack on season 1 Rhaenyra at all. I don't think she was the type of character to completely descend after the death of her son, and I think there's a lot more depth to fleshing out a more gradual change. I think that argument makes sense, but I don't personally agree. As for Mysaria, I like the kiss. It's incredibly ominous, it reflects Rhaenyra directly trying to be Daemon, and it reflects how incredibly lonely she's felt and how that possibly makes her easy to manipulate. The absolute trust she's showing in Mysaria is a deliberate mistake of hers, in my opinion. Finally she seems to find one person who respects her as a queen, and she's all in on it. I like that
The writers are taking away Alicent and Rhaenyra’s ruthlessness though. Women don’t care about the realm or dragons fighting when their child is killed, any woman in real life when it comes to their children they are very protective and ruthless to anyone who harms them.
yeah is kinda funny how Rhaenyra forgot the death of LUCE, her stillborn and possible his father (with poison could be why not if the betray her). Rhaenys well is ehhhh but to this point she cares more about politics than remember SOMETHING about Luce or her father, in fact she mentions Viserys but as a peaceful ruler she wants to copy, not as her father in the dialogue . . .
i don’t know why they had to write daenerys all over again but done right, when they could have written rhaenyra done right.
Season 2 is basically Rhaenrya's corruption arc.
¿Arc? She has a history of abusing power and privilege. She hasn´t move an inch from that.
@@alvarogabrielaguirregarin3933first criston cole and now mysaria. Writers want us to see this as a liberating act but it's not.
@@کوثراحمدی-ع9ر She also abused Laenor and King Viserys.
@alvarogabrielaguirregarin3933 Wish they moved Rhaenyra from complaining about misogynistic men around her. Sometimes it doesn't make sense. She says his advisors want to protect her because she is a woman. The green council did the same thing for Aegon in order to protect their figurehead.
She abused Laenor and Viserys? How? They knew about her secrets and fought to keep them that way ... secrets@@alvarogabrielaguirregarin3933
I like how they Rhaenyra said herself she was always jealous of Daemon wanting to be free like him able to go wherever she wished just like he was always Jealous of her wanting to be loved by Viserys and sit on the Iron Throne I hope they cover it more and show Rhaenyras side of this Jealousy her feelings on Daemon have been sorely ignored.
You know what this series was missing? Some gay shit. Im SOOO happy we had some gay stuff in this episode
It’s not a Martin story without it tbh
lol I was just seeing sooo many homophobic people going crazy about this one scene :D:D how its forced and George would never and blahblahblah, dont even realize that George RR Martin is liberal :D and they dont also realize that Rhaenyra and Laena had lowkey something in the books and that was already cut out.... why not with Mysaria then? Its crazy how many insane homophobes there are , its alwatys soo funny to read their meltdowns :D
We've had gay shit since s01 and you still watch Soo???
@@Alexander-kc8oq funny thing is, this wasn't in the books. At all
mood hahah
I’m all for Rhaenyra having an Atreides-like fall and considering what happens in Fire and Blood I would be very surprised if they didn’t go there. However, I do think the show has been struggling with allowing female characters to own their ambitions and more self-serving desires. If it were only Rhaenyra, that would be one thing, but all the women in the show have been portrayed like this. The onus is always on the women to be the voices of temperance, while calls for war and vengeance are chiefly portrayed as the work of power-hungry men. The impression given is that all of these women have been pulled into the conflict mostly against their will, which is just not the case in the source material or, for that matter, much of the first season. I don't think it was their intention, but it does start to come across as benevolent sexism. The Rhaenyra they set up in the first season had no qualms about claiming and wanting her birthright. While I like Rhaenyra having a more subtle transformation, I'm not sure the constant indecision and passivity from both Rhaenyra and Alicent have communicated this effectively.
I don't like rhaenyra's writing for the same reasons that make me dislike daenerys's writing since the season one of game ofthrones. She's not showed as a nice person : she's showed as an evil person that the writers want you to see as good. Everytime she makes something stupid, weak, horrible ( killing an nnocent to fake Leanor's death, asking for aemond to be tortured, make the smallfolks starve ans then use they lack of hope to make them give her life for her, choosing lucerys overs Baela as a heir for corlys, making rhaenys believe her son is dead...) the show makes it look not so bad by the way it shows it ( music, dialogues, screentime). It looks like she has a moral armor plot, she can do everything she wants ans she is still good, strong intelligent.
I see, they want to shock me later by making her do horrible things, but i will not be shocked cause i already see she is as bad and weak than other characters. And waiting for it, i am frustrated, angry and feel like the shows triés to trap me and ridiculously fails...
. So frustrating because is the rest is good to genius on my opinion.
Your take on this episode is so refreshing, really nice to hear some positivity about it. Personally i enjoyed the episode, i think some of the pacing was a bit off and i totally agree that it'd be great to get to know Alyn and Addam better but overall i think House of The Dragon (so far) is a much better ASOIAF adaptation than GOT ended up being.
Yeah, Rhaenyra rampedd uo her "only I know what's good" this season. She even dressed a Septa to plea her case. People call Daemon a narcissist, but Rhaenyra is a close second. Mysaria was forced into prostitution and chose to use it to climb the social latter to safety. It failed with Daemon, and she decided to use her mind more than her body. I'm not so sure that a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra would be considered going forward by her. If I were her I would be mindful that Rhaenyra began sniffing me after I told her the first story of being brutally turned into a sex object by a person with power over my life.
I've said this before, but The complaints about the show not showing women in a bad light is disingenuous and motivated by current red pill gender politics because this is in large part a story about women navigating a heavily patriarchal society. They're just mad. Many of the women in GOT were portrayed for most of the series as good people. Few of them had direct power anf, most were victims of men.at some point. We didn't meet this complaint on a large scale about tv shows until the 2016 US presidential elections and the word woke became more widely used. Now we have women with more power and agency and with greater responsibilities, and their caution, conscientiousness, and desire for personal pleasures is supposedly an unrealistic, unfair, pro-woman portrayal. If Rhaenyra was a man the complaint would be that a lead character is being written in too good a light, as in how people see Ned Stark. Gender wouldn't be (wasn't) a factor.
Another giveaway for that BS is how the accusations of Rhaenyra having sex with Cole was sexual assault, but when he started screwing Alicent it became a relationship to those same people. The power imbalance between them is much bigger than what was between Cole and Rhaenyra, and so far the cost has been greater. Alicent being more of a "trad wife" they won't give her the same criticisms.
I don't like the way common people are portrayed in these series. It's as if the writers have no idea how regular see those in power or their own places in society. Everything they do is a reaction to what the monarchy does, and their responses and criticisms of them are childish. All they seem there to do is put on sex shows, starve, die, and riot. Even Heleana was more is more thoughtful of their humanity than they are of their own. I kind of like Dyana and not-long-for-this-world Sylvie having personal stakes making them willing to take risks, the rest of them don't even need to have names.
I like how you can tell buddy was going to be roasted and 3 characters that have been slightly in the back lines are going to become RIDERS!!!!
I'm loving this take on Aemond, I disagree about Alicent being a tragic figure rather she's the true villain in my eyes. The fact that she constantly puts her needs above her children and the damage we see as a result. Aemond is the best to be equipped to be king...he's the smartest man in the room. Visery's saw through the BS but he always wanted to keep the peace...Aemond doesn't care about that.
11:33 The selection of shots here were really interesting. The tone shift and the way that scene of Alicent is shot almost made me think we were looking at a flash back of the younger Alicent. The show really killed it with the casting.
I immediately thought of young Alicent wearing her mother's dress this episode. The ill-fitted dresses she was wearing, the way her hair was put up in the courtyard scene. I was fully expecting her to start picking at her nails.
I completely agree. This was my favorite episode so far. It's so well written.
I love spooky dream sequences so much, I get so sad so many people are not into them
People think Rhaenyra's character regressed because she started as someone spunky, rebellious, and self-indulgent. But I am with you in that, they're building towards Rhaenyra's "madness". She's slowly going to become the atrocious person she was written as and she will feel justified for those.
Rhaenyra's kiss was an interesting parallel to Daemon's dream. She's turned on by the person assuring her She's the best ruler.
It also affirms my belief that Alicent is/was at least in part motivated by emotions she doesn't understand or can't admit to herself. Rhae got to indulge in ways Alicent could never because of 'duty' and I think that envy is the dilemma of 'do I want to be like you or be with you'
The problem I have is that all of this is happening over the corpses of the poor. I think it’s been a good that many of these grand moral debates about feminism, and all that are fine.
But at the end of the day the Targaryens power is wrought from fire and blood. built on a mountain of corpses and broken steel by Maegor and Visenya. Rhaenyra and Daemon believe themselves to be semi divine and don’t consider those not of Targaryen blood worthy of consideration or empathy. I think that should have been made more clear.
Amen
You don't think it's already being made clear enough?
@@thing_under_the_stairs no, I don’t. But tbf the court drama is so disconnected to the commonfolk it makes sense.
I will wait to see if this is remedied in the future. But many of the people like messaria. It should have been made more clear why daemon only loved his wives of Valyrian descent. It’s very clear Daemon wants to be like the Dragonlords of old and part of being a Dragonlord was an emphatic and uncompromising belief that you are superior to everyone else. Valyria was hell on earth to anyone except the Dragonlords.
I’d take my chances in Mordor before going there during its height.
In Valyria slaves died by the millions as callous dragonlords sipped fine wines in their towers, creating monstrous chimeras from their slaves and other animals.
The idea that Valyria should be something replicated or looked upon fondly is only a position that can be held if you believe that non dragonlords are mere livestock. To be used then discarded once finished.
I think the show could have done better by vowing us what Valyria was really like so that we’d understand the kind of past that Daemon looks fondly upon and wants to replicate.
I’d focus more on Daemon but this ideology of Targaryen exceptionalism is common to all Targaryens and should have been explicitly stated as it was codified by Jaeharys to allow him to marry his sister without the faith rising in revolt.
My main problems with HotD is that it doesn’t take its time. It just rapidly progresses from massive historical event to massive historical event without slowing down and digesting the themes and actions. The writers try to cram as much of this into the details as possible but it isn’t ever given its own spotlight or explored beyond the surface level because the show is moving so fast.
@@kekero540 I feel similarly. I feel they simply haven’t done a good enough job of portraying why none of these sides in the conflict are really right, and tackling those very damaging ideas of Targaryen Exceptionalism and the like. It’s why I find some of Rhaenyra’s characterization in this season in particular confusing.
While I do see the subtle changes I can understand why people are upset.
In the books Rhaenyra pretty much stays like her younger self even as an adult. There isn't some big shift in maturity at all post time skip. Just from the books, she seems closer to Cersei than her show portrayal feeding a rival Velaryon to her dragon or going into a Black rage after hearing about Aegon's coronation and such.
Also, its a genuine succession crisis where Alicent and most of the other Greens actually believed that Aegon had the best claim by the existing frameworks of succession and that the king arbitrarily choosing someone didn't give them the best claim. It wasn't something so fraudulent that Alicent needed a misunderstanding to believe it.
Probably the biggest change in portrayal is the addition of the prophecy as a reason for the Blacks and their succession. The Blacks were just another party greedy for the throne. On occasion, Viserys even threatened to name someone else heir to get Rhaenyra to do what he wanted (like marry Laenor).
Criston probably rejects her advances in the books and doesn't murder people at dinner. Aegon didn't go to child fighting pits and probably wasn't a r*pist. Rhaenyra and Alicent's characters have been changed dramatically and most of the liberties from the book are there to favor one side heavily.
isn‘t the book actually not impartial at all neither? I don’t think GRRM is unhappy at all with what we’ve got
This is why I prefer the book version.
I like the show, but all this discourse over self-righteous people being oh so confident the show is better gives me a headache.
also isn't the show actually supposed to picture what truly happened, while the books were about the recorded history and rumors written by scholars and historians?
@@maymatekoteve Absolutely. The books were compiled by a maester, at least 100 yrs after the events taking place, from a minimum of three different sources. The epitome of unreliable narration!
@@blaubeer8039 show Rhaenyra is not fleshed out, she is just a bland good guy in season 2.
that's exactly what i thought about the kiss and i'm surprised so many people found it out of context or forced. I think it was a natural progression for the scene and had an interesting subtext. I see it as a symbol of rhaenyra becoming daemon. She's frustrated because her council doesn't take her seriously and they only respected daemon and saw him as the true figure of authority. Daemon represents the archetype of dangerous warrior she would like to be seen as but doesn't know how to, and she's venting all this conflict she has with daemon to mysaria who happens to be his ex lover. Mysaria compliments her and makes her feel validated as a ruler, that clearly helps rhaenyra's wounded ego and she kisses her impulsively, almost like she's symbolically becoming daemon. It's a very interesting scene from a thematic and psychological point of view.
I believe it's exactly what you said - a trap. The more we like her now the more it'll hurt later
I only really have 1 big criticism with this episode being the seasmoke problem, dragons can't bond with a new rider until the current one is dead, which means leanor has died of screen which I find really unsatisfying and his fake out death in season one only exists to keep rhaenyras hands clean, they either should have just killed him in cold blood to inject some brutality to rhaenyra or have leanor come back and disguise himself and go under the name addam of hull, then you could set up some really juicy drama and Conflict with corlys, it also means rhaenyra knowingly sent the kingsgaurd to his death but the show won't be willing to dig into that
The romantic angle with rhaenyra and the white worm I think was a little forced but that's a small criticism for me compared to the seasmoke issue
They might just not address the lore at all. Which would be a shame. I wondered if they might adjust it somewhat. Perhaps a rider can desert their dragon in such a way that the tie is severed and the dragon freed to bond with another if they so wish…
Is that rule written in stone though? Because I feel like it could just be the dragonrider bond fading after Laenor has been so far away for such a long time
I had some issues with seasmoke in this way but i also am wondering if maybe thats why seasmoke was restless? like the rider isnt dead and something feels off and seasmoke doesnt understand necessarily what this is and why he chased down laenors half brother because its SOMETHING.
considering the reliability of dragon care is only left with what targs remember and they dont even understand half of them, i feel like it's a suggestion or expansion on how dragon/rider connections work, which is really interesting to me. even with magic, things are never as black and white as "dragons can/cant do xyz"
@@donttalktomebye I Interpreted seasmoke being restless as that being the point where leanor died off screen, but in the 10 years since the fake death, seasmoke never flies over to wherever in essos he is to find him? Personally I don't like the concept of being able to break a dragon bond while the human still lives I think that sorta breaks the magic soul bonding system with dragons, I do like the thought the seasmoke choosing his own rider, rather then being claimed he instead claims a rider and went out to find him as he's been scouting addam out so overall it's a mixed package for me but I think bringing leanor back would have been the better move
@@grumpysphinx4911 everything I've seen suggests is a for life thing and just not riding a dragon isn't going to break the bond and I think that would break the magic system if it did considering it seems to be a deep soul bond dragons get with riders, so I do consider is a set in stone rule
She's her father's daughter, and knows how to reel it in when everyone else is going crazy around her. Of course she's frustrated, because everyone holds her back because of her importance. I always hoped that she would tell Corlys and Rhaenys that their son still lived, perhaps they would not have taken so long to trust her. Well, now she's holding a sword, and she takes off on her dragon to confront Addam.
@mylittlethoughttree You're not wrong about Rhaenyra per se. The problem with the character, and others, stems from season One. After Rhaenyra became heir, she has worked ever since to prepare for the day of ascension. But, in episode Ten, Rhaenyra chose not to act in defense of her rights. She adopted a wait-and-see posture, which is mind boggling: she doesn't hold the Crown or the capital, and the enemy has had time to take other actions before the news of Viserys' death and Aegon's crowning came to light. In the real world, she was risking diplomatic isolation and strategic impotence. In the story, it's counter-productive -- Daemon had the right of it at that moment. If she wasn't going to fight for her Crown, why should anyone else? Any departure from the book's story is a different sort of criticism; though, not unimportant, isn't really applicable for this point.
I think it's me, but I've not quite understood what you mean. I'd agree she was hesitant early on and it costs her, and I see that as another reason for the gradual shift into a more impulsive and ruthless Rhaenyra
@@mylittlethoughttree I was addressing the reasons for why Rhaenyra is behaving the way that she is in season Two (and Ep. Ten of S One) by comparing and contrasting the character before/after episode Ten. It was not a logical shift, and it hurts the storytelling. On a different point, after rewatching your vid, making the SongFireIce prophesy into a plot point for Alicent and Rhaenyra was a mistake, because it changes their motivations from safeguarding/promoting their interests/power to mere loyalty to husband's wishes and duty to an esoteric, intangible prophesy. This is, in part, what I meant when i said that Alicent/Rhaenyra were sanitized for the tv show. In Seizing power and promoting interests at any cost is what Game of Thrones was about. The HotD dilutes that GoT quality that in part made that series so good.
@@mylittlethoughttree To offer another thought. While Daemon looks to be becoming a new man, showing emotion and being with his brother at the time of need, Rhaenyra, on the other hand, appears to be becoming more impulsive and ruthless, as you've already pointed out. She's taken up a sword and even accepted the embrace of Daemon's former lover, Mysaria. They're turning into the other. it looks like the writers decided to compare and contrast Rhaenyra and Daemon in juxtaposition, to set up, perhaps, a downward, self destructive spiral for Rhaenyra, but a heroic redemption for Daemon. The writers are trying to be Shakespearean.
She can’t just act because the capitol is held by her enemies and they have troops and dragons including Vhagar and Sunfyre. I imagine that’s why she hesitated both in the show and book. What was she supposed to do initiate a dragon battle over KL and destroy her capitol and potentially risk her own life?
@@mariapdr3261 The episodes are not consistent on this point. The Blacks do have ground forces -- they're not completely isolated on Dragonstone, yet it's also said that they lack ground forces, which is not strictly correct. it's also not an either/or -- dragon battle over King's Landing or passivity.
Loving your reviews. Concise and yet full of interesting insights.
the source material told that Robert Baratheon had gone to fat and was a shadow of his youthful self, and the show gave us that Robert..the source material said basically the same about older Rhaenyra...why wont the show give us that Rhaenyra?
It didn’t give us that Cersei either.
Honestly who cares if King V chose Rhaenyra as his heir or not. He was a bumbling old fool, too afraid or too lazy to do what needed to be done to nip this civil war in the bud years ago when the kids were bickering. He should’ve chose a proper, uncontroversial heir and prevented this whole war. Rhaenyra should’ve just taken her L like Rhaenys did and the realm would’ve been better off because of it. It’s never been about the person in the chair and it’s not about Rhaenyra, it’s about the realm.
Exactly my wife and I have been saying this since season one. Viserys inability to be a decisive man has lead to the ruin of the entire kingdom.
Thinking the Realm is better off with male in charge and that’s the only way it could ever be is exactly the point of view Otto and the Hightowers are thematically criticizing. The “Realm” would have accepted a woman as heir, most of the lords would have, and the smallfolk adore her in the latest episode. We have every reason to believe the Targaryens could assert a female ruler through their dragon exceptionalism and the conflict would never have arisen, but Otto convinced Viserys to wed again because he wanted his grandchild on the throne. The “Realm” rejected an “unconventional” ruler because Otto spent decades eroding Rhaenyra’s legitimacy and she and her father didn’t take it seriously. Viserys should have taken every opportunity to proclaim at every royal event that Rhaenyra was his heir and nothing would change that, and that would equally have avoided the incredibly avoidable conflict.
I'd love to hear your opinions on the psychology of Katniss Everdeen and Even Peeta. But Katniss specifically, because she is so certain nobody sees her, or cares about her, and I think that's partially because of the movies. Meanwhile people are cheering for her, Peeta had taken a beating for feeding her. She does not hesitate to volunteer to take her sisters place in the games, and the whole time she's training she thinks she is so terrible, forgetful, etc. But she ends up scoring higher than kids who had trained their whole lives for this. Even in the games she tries not to kill anyone, she only ever killed one person and that was after he shot Rue (who was a Prim stand in for her, and the start of the uprising). I think she's genuinely very interesting. I cant put it all into words, not effectively anyway.
You've given me so much to think about in this video. Fascinating points, particularly about Rhaenyra slowly taking on the characteristics of Daemon. ♥️ The ideas 💡
I just realized that rhaenyra was in the same pose in dragonstone watching the dragons as daenerys was in season 7!
The kiss wasn’t romantic or even sexual (if that makes sense). It was manipulation. Mysaria knew Rhaenyra was longing for positive reinforcement and love from Daemon. Emma even described the kiss as cathartic but not romantic. Rhaenyra was purging her emotions. While Mysaria’s words were probably genuine, her actions were very manipulative. Even Sonoya confirmed that some people want to think it’s love and that Mysaria is only looking out for herself. When the sh*t hits the fan, she’ll bail. The ominous music that played in the bg kind of tells me that it’s not a good thing.
4:59 "The more righteous she feels, the more of an excuse Rhaenyra has to be like a dragon."
Hmm, who does that remind me of, I wonder?
Ok. This is one of the episodes that I enjoyed the most. I loved episode 4 because of the dragon fight, but here I loved all the dialogue. All the time, like, I laughed, I got stressed, like, I really enjoyed it. One of my favourite episodes so far for sure.
The thing about being that hungry is that it IS very straightforward.
'Morally perfect'? Man, internet takes are bonkers.
Nettles was cut from the show because HBO does not have the courage to have Rhaenyra demand the murdering of an innocent child, especially a girl...
Or they just don't want to spend time developing her relationship with Daemon, which in the books is quite controversial.
@deniserosa5710 But is a major part to the entire story.
...and you... want that?
@@joshuabryant9845 I don't think so. It only has relevance in the end. It can be adapted in another way.
@@por5215 did you want Neds head cut off...did you want a 13 year old Joffrey to die violently from being poisoned...did you want Oberyn Martell to have his scull crushed in...how come you dont ..there seems to be a trend here...this is not Seseme Street
I had the pleasure of not watching when season 1 dropped so I got to binge watch all the way through season 2 episode 5 and I genuinely don’t understand why so many people are hating on Rhaenera when the show does such a good job setting her up and drawing parallels between her and Alicent. The one thing that I really like is showing how insane the Targaryen’s are in the sense that they carry themselves like other worldly beings around other people because of their dragons. On take this kind of earned sense of superiority and you can see why Rhaenera has been almost institutionalist about a civil war essentially taking the stance of “this was a mistake, I’m the queen, we don’t need to burn everything down over it.” Idk it’s just been nice watching someone who has been groomed to rule a kingdom with immense power try to do harm reduction on what they could easily see as an uprising as much as it is a coup.
The big lie humans have told themselves for millennia is that you can gain peace by making war. That's the lesson of this conflict. Great insights about the role reversal, when you point it out I really see it. The kiss doesn't work at all. Not only is it out of sync with Rhaenyra's character, you simply do not hit on your chief of staff. It was trauma bonding and inherently unhealthy at its best, but leaves Rhaenyra open to manipulation by Mysaria at its worst. And that's without touching on the issues around consent when there is this kind of a power imbalance.
YAYYYY CLOUDS
Happy to sit back and relax after a long day of studying with one of your videos :D
I hope you recover from your sickness soon 😌
I like this take on Rhaenyra, I do feel like she's been REALLY passive and I attributed it to her desire to keep what her father left her in tact, but I'm just dying to see her snap back cuz at this point, she's lost her son, Rhaenys, and her counsel is talking to her silly, so I'm looking forward to some messy retribution
People forget how GRRM writes thanks to the horrible ending of Game of Thrones. The Good ones lose, to win the Game of Thrones you have to be ruthless.
My favorite scene was Larys and Aegon, that short scene did so much to humanize Larys
A good episode though not the best. I don't agree with all you've said, I like the stuff with the Greens more than the Blacks, things are a bit too stagnant on Dragonstone. I don't mind the stuff with Daemon as much as others I do feel it will ultimately have a lot of significance on the direction of his character. I think the dreams with Viserys should've been more interesting, bringing Paddy back just for that was underwhelming but maybe we'll get more with him next episode.
Bloodlines don't matter so much when everyone is sleeping with anyone they want to. History remembers Names-Magic remembers Blood.
16:20 thought so too... it was too direct. I would expect this convo to be held in secret or not so out there because there are ears everywhere in Kinglsanding
I hope they save Aegon's arc until next season and do justice to his character..........as people are enjoying his growth this season (the ups and downs) and Rhaynera can just go, she is too boring TBH!
Agree 100% with everything you said. Keep up the good work.
I feel like there are many people who just would like to hate Rhaenyra ,....and right now they dont have a good reason and that drives them crazy probably :D also Fire and Blood book is basically all rumors...there isnt a single thing that has been confirmed , book is "written" by three "historians" who all disagree and tell some crazy sh*it ...thats probably why this story is easier to adapt aswell...because we are not supposed to know what really happened , you can basically read the book and disregard some of the things these "historians" say about your favorite character and believe what you want to believe :D
@@HK-gm8pe rhaenyra has been castrated. We don't hate her, she is just not a very important part of the story since she went to dragonstone. Daemon is also pretty weak so far in season 2. We expected these characters to do something, anything really, but they aren't. All the moves are being made by the greens.
@@pepeepupooYES!
People are so shallow.
Rhaenyra has been neutered, much like Alicent this season.
And at least, Alicent has juicy scenes, but Rhaenyra's storyline has been hella WEAK this season.
Daemon's at least has been trippy.
But honestly, Rhaenyra doesn't do much after Luke's murder in Fire and Blood, either.
So it's not like I can blame them for it.
@flyingboat7507 well, politics change the way history is written for their advantage as well. the biggest and most recent example is Putin ordering school history books to be rewritten to picture Russia as something like the good guy in the war against Ukraine, with whatever reason he might think of even though it's such a complex situation
@flyingboat7507BANG ON!
@@Δ-Δ-Δ-Δ even though is frustrating to see rhaenyra being so tied down and unable to act, it makes sense in the end. as she mentioned, she's at an "impossible position"
The show has massively whitewashed Rhaenyra and her caused. The Dance of the Dragons was about human causes, two factions of the same family who failed to compromise and fought over power, tribalism and vengeance and another petty human desires. Not the good guys(with one bad apple) fighting for higher goal of defending the realm from doom and the evil scheemers(with one good apple we haven't even seen) fighting for power.
I wouldn't mistake Rhaenyra using the prophecy as an excuse to justify her war, as her actually caring about the prophecy
SHALLOW !... SHALLOW !... SHALLOW !
High school, Creative Writing 102 course; Secondary Character Building. Screen Writers of today are making themselves the story.
Shows like the series "ARCANE" seem to be genious because they are written FOR THE AUDIENCE.
EVERY NOVEL ADAPTATION, where the Screen Writers are given too much liberty, end in ruin.
Deny D's "DUNE" 1 & 2 were pure genious because the director cared about the relationship between the audience and the story. Most stories today, (everything Disney) is failing because it's about the relationship of the screen Writer and their own social viewpoint.
The writers are forcing their character into the story and the story is about themselves.
I enjoyed this episode too.
Finally a good take on Rhaenyra! The righteousness theme is getting picked up where Daenerys left it. Dictators always need to justify themselves. Even if they have to grasp for some future where they will save the people from winter😂 I love her arc its dope
can't wait to see how you plug world anvil into this lol
You have a lot more faith in this show than I. I think theyre playing the girlboss daenerys arc straight. no heel-turn just a tragic girlboss heroine who died too soon.
the problem with all this is that we already HAD this motivation happen in the season 1 finale. her "righteous" motivation for doing god awful things should be seeking justice for luke's death but at the same time the writers dont want her to be responsible for blood and cheese in any way so they were like "well she felt awful about that but it wasnt her fault it was daemon. daemon killing a baby calmed her down a bit" which really removes the tension of that last moment in season 1 and she goes back to being hesitant after Jaehaerys' death instead going full war-criminal. All of the fucked up things rhaenyra does in the books are either given to daemon to do completely on his own without rhaenyra knowing or they are being switched to a team green plot like the starvation of the city which is something rhaenyra does, not aemond.
To an extent, I agree. They could've cut out the middle-man, or middle-arc, and just had her go straight from her season 1 ending to being a ruthless, brutal Targaryen in season 2. It would've saved time, and I can see why it feels like a backtrack after the season 1 ending, so it is a valid point.
Personally, I think it makes sense though. The Rhaenyra we saw all of season 1 is not likely to just suddenly become brutal at the death of her son. I mean she could've done but it's less fulfilling and organic than this slow change that has much more to do with the corrupting, seductive nature of power, than just being the plain old "I've turned to rage because I'm grieving" that you always see. There's more political edge to the arc we're getting. She was furious about Lucerys, then she saw how easily fury and revenge can go awry, and it horrified her. She wants to consider herself a good person, she wants to pretend blood and cheese isn't on her hands, and she is restless with how awry things go when she takes advice or delegates. Increasingly, she wants to do things herself because she is always right... except she's not. It's a fun parallel how much Alicent (for all her many faults) is now reflecting on guilt and self-doubt and regret, whereas Rhaenyra is defensive and turning numb to any behaviour she might feel guilt about. She is turning incredibly blinkered and resolute, and even directly trying to emulate Daemon, or her idea of who Daemon is. It's a much more fulfilling slow descent that I find so much more engaging and refreshing and honestly, the fact so few people seem to even notice the change, tell me they're doing a great job of slow, natural character progression. Rhaenyra thinks she is the hero, after all. I think with hindsight, assuming we do see her descend, people will look on this season a lot more favourably and will understand it better
I love your videos because you haven't read the books. We shall not be spoiled!
Once again i absolutely love your sponsorship segues
i love this channel. i was one of the people who said this episode sucked but, you’ve changed my opinion. now, i wouldnt rate it a 9/10, i think that rook’s rest is much better television and was much more entertaining but anyway, i was most unhappy with rhaenerya this episode but i think you’re really onto it. the dichotomy between daemon doing nothing and rhaenerya kind of becoming daemon is beautiful.