Massive Chosin Reservoir Wargame
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- This week on Little Wars TV, we remember "The Forgotten War" with a massive 12' long tabletop wargame of the Chosin Reservoir. In November 1950, a stunning Chinese surprise attack hit the 1st Marine Division deep in the snowy mountains of North Korea. Surrounded and heavily outnumbered, the Marines fought their way out the trap and retreated south. But will our Marine players be able to do the same?
We visit the National Museum of the Marine Corps and talk to Deputy Museum Director David Vickers about the history of this iconic moment in Marine Corps history. Then, we fight our wargame in the museum lobby using 10mm Pendraken miniatures. It's a massive, 8-player wargame covering the first week of the Chosin Reservoir at operational scale!
Our thanks to the museum staff for hosting this fantastic event and allowing us to share our love of historical wargaming with the public. Learn more about the National Museum of the Marine Corps and plan your visit here: www.usmcmuseum...
The miniatures in today's wargames are 10mm scale figures from Pendraken's extensive Korea range. You can find their Korean War miniatures available here: www.pendraken....
Finally, we want to wish all of our American viewers a happy Memorial Day holiday. It's a day to remember the fallen, not just from Korea, but across every war fought in American history.
I want to personally thank you guys for being so gracious when I walked up and spoke to you. One of your team also spoke with my son and let him check out some of the tanks that had been in the battle. You guys are awesome and I can't wait to see more of your content. Again thank you very much, you guys rock!
Pleasure to meet both you and your son at the museum Chris!
@@LittleWarsTV I've got a question, so, im really interested in starting my own wargame, so when i saw the link of which leads to the pendraken site it seems that your minfigures are grouped together to show units, but those i find are individual soldiers, standing alone on a small platform, did you guys make some special arrangement to get those or did you do something else? Thank you.
@@TheDaneViking I believe they made them themselves
@@TheDaneViking In wargaming these are called bases. Most miniatures are mounted on their own cast on base, but they really aren't that good for gaming as they tend to be very small while the miniature itself, especially in the larger scales, are over balanced or top heavy. That means that they are very easy to knock over, so wargamers tend to mount miniatures to another, larger, base. Frequently they are called "stands" because that's what they do- help the figure to stand. In smaller scales, like 15mm, 10mm, 6mm, and even 2/3mm (!) they are essential because they are so small and fiddly to pick up and move (good luck moving a 3mm infantryman!). Better still, you can mount several figures to that stand and create a miniature diorama which turns a handful of indiviual figures into a military unit like a team, squad, or an even larger tactical grouping. LWTv mentioned that their stands were company scale, so each stand with handful of individuals soldiers represent a company of actual troops- say 60 to 200 or so men (depending on how depleted they are) and several armored fighting vehicles. That allows you to take say 30 10mm models, put them on several stands, and call them a battalion.
As for getting these stands, you can fashion them yourself out of cardboard, plastic card, or another stiff material, or you can purchase them from another company. Gale Force 9 sells quite a range of these for reasonable prices. www.flamesofwar.com/gf9online_store.aspx?CategoryID=13836
More often or not commercial wargames will tell you how you should base your armies. Major miniature lines will even include those bases with the miniatures (like say Games Workshop).
Typically you paint up the models on their own and then you glue them down onto the base. Then you decorate the base with small stones/pebbles, flocking, and even other small models. If you put a some time and effort into it you'll wind up with rather impressive results!
Chairman Miles has to come back
Nah man Ed coming back to read commie quotes was the best.
Chinese civil war or Second Sino Japanese War war game?
Oh, was it Ed?
@@brooksriley9659I would love a second or third battle of Changsha.
The quotes are the best part 😂
This feels like an excellent way to get people into the hobby. I wonder if there's a way for hobbyists and museums to link up to try and do promotions like this more often
That's a great idea........or even with schools!
@@CJ_esc.artist When one of my wargaming buddies was going to college at USC in Columbia, S.C., He started a club, and they played the Napoleonic board game "Empire in Arms" on a weekly basis. Another one of my wargaming friends runs a hobby shop and he hosts a weekly game of "World in Flames" at his house. Board wargaming is a great way to introduce people who love military history to the wargaming community and then graduate them into miniatures. 😛
The cool thing here with the player who played RCT-31, when revisiting the battle later, RCT-31 was often shamed for their role in Chosin. After the fact, it was actually USMC Historians who revisited the exploits of RCT-31 and even came to the conclusion that their defense, against overwhelming odds, stutter stepped the Chinese units and gave the units on the other side more time to organize and prepare. Especially looking at the units that were arrayed against RCT-31 it was a nigh impossible task to hold, but the fact they held the Chinese advance on the eastern side for five days, along with destroying the CCF 80th Division, was vital in the success of the forces making it out of Chosin.
So the player for RCT-31 distracting the Chinese forces and holding units there is pretty historical and cool.
My uncle was in the 7th Marine there. He said later, that he was never so cold. He also said that Chosin was the Marines 'Greatest hour.' This coming from a veteran of the 2nd Marine in WW2, Saipan.
Damn, high praise from him! The accounts from Chosin are pretty harrowing. As many men died from the cold as the battle!
Having listened to "Last Stand of Fox Company" by Bob Drury & Tom Clavin, and The Frozen Hours" by Jeff Shaara I can understand why he considered the Chosin the Marines' "Greatest hour." Also, as a native of South Dakota, I can appreciate the cold he went through. At least with me, no matter how cold I get, I can still go inside after chores, get a hot shower, and stand in front of the corn stove.
My dear neighbor two-doors-down is a vet of 31 RCT and fought at Chosin. He's full of some great stories, and the kindest guy you could ever hope to meet.
Wow! Those guys had a very tough fight at Chosin, largely isolated on the eastern side.
Pro Patria
Chosin Reservoir is a long way away from the tropical climate it spent most of its interwar years.
Makes me wonder if Little Wars will do a table top of another battle the regiment fought in, that being the Battle of Bataan?
They refuse to surrender and refused to die!
@@LittleWarsTV The most forgotten battle of the Forgotten War. The 31st's stand and destruction took a lot of pressure off of the USMC and helped them to escape.
Probably one of the best episodes of this channel. Thank you for remembering the sacrifice of the heroes who gave their lives to, or at least try to, make this World and this Country a better place. God bless you all.
Thank you Pepe! It was an honor and a thrill to play this at the museum.
Fun fact! When they were building this facility, the corps came to Calgary Alberta, Canada to visit The Military Museums and modeled their museum off of The Military Museums. They even hired the same sculptor who made the mannequins
Thanks, that was great as always.
The historical rundown, the setting in the museum and the superb tabletop created a real sense of the battle. Also, it was good to see kids involved - I’m slowly introducing my six year old daughter to the hobby.
So much work goes into these videos and I hope you feel the appreciation from us all.
I’m looking forward to the next one!
As a former Marine of 1/7 , we had some old timers from this battle come talk to us. They are some of the baddest devil dogs around. Happy memorial day to all the veterans, Sempre Fi do or die. Thank you for your service.
Great job with this. My dad fought in Korea as a marine, so this one has a special meaning for me.
Our collective hats are off to your father today, sir.
@@LittleWarsTV I have two great aunts who were nurses in the PLA in Korea.
You guys should have had tootsie roles to eat while playing your game. (At least the American players). Tootsie roles were one of the few things that they could eat uncooked. Stick them in your mouth, unthaw, and then eat. Plus, they gave an energy boost from the sugar, which in -20 F (plus wind) weather, was essential. The marines quickly learned that pockets full of tootsie roles were life savers.
Love that story. They tell it well at the museum! One of the displays has some Tootsie Roll wrappers on the ground near the feet of a Marine
Great to see the Forgotten War represented on your show, and a fantastically presented episode!
Shame that the 2 US Infantry Divisions, ROK troops and even the tiny Royal Marine forces never got a mention.
It's a touchstone battle for the Marines, but they sure weren't the only ones fighting
We did talk about the Brits in relation to TF Drysdale! And obviously the Army was a big part of the game. But as much as this is called a United Nations command, the Marines were the vast majority of the combat troops engaged that first week.
I must have missed that somehow. I'll watch again and see what I missed, thanks for the correction!
@@LittleWarsTV I should clarify - I heard them mentioned in the actual game, obviously. No idea how I missed your historian talking about them before that. Must pay better attention next time 🤣🤦🏿♂️
That TF Drysdale made it at all to Hagaru-ri is a battle in of itself up Hellfire Valley - it had been split into two and half of the force smashed. Brutal stuff.
I did hear that 41 ("Four-One") Commando Royal Marines, was mentioned as part of TF DRYSDALE. There are still images of the men deployed in that conflct in the HQ of the Commando Training Centre (Royal Marines) which I walked past daily when working there during a number of appointments. An interesting fact was that they deployed so quickly, many straight from leave they arrived with little or no equipment and hence were fully re-equipped from US stock - apart from the Commando Berets which the men took with them everywhere they went. Another interesting fact is the presence of a Turkish Brigade of 5000 men attached to US forces: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Brigade. This war was truly a United Nations effort of 22 participants.
It's return of Communist tips, long have I waited for this moment.
Those Reds had some great sound bytes!
18:44
It was heartwarming to see new people get exposed to table gaming❤
Love chatting with new folks about the hobby. It’s always fun to show them a great table and see the reactions from folks who have never even heard of Wargaming or seen it in person
Dog doesn't agree with the Chinese lol
Haha you heard Lucille bark! Good catch.
General O.P. Smith, disobeyed orders by building an airstrip... He did this because their position would've been isolated if cut off... He figured something was 'a foot', because they had been capturing Chinese for some time...
I’m just getting to the end of Max Hastings’s Korean War book, and it’s a fascinating conflict. I’m amazed I haven’t heard more about it! I was a member of the 5th Fusiliers (the Newcastle arm of RRF, the unit the Northumberland Fus. were folded into) for a short while, and hearing about Imjin and the like has been enlightening. The whole conflict, being so close to the industrial might of WW2, and a precursor to Vietnam, has captured my imagination. This video couldn’t have been released at a better time (well, for me anyway) 😊
You should check out "Last Stand of Fox Company" by Bob Drury & Tom Clavin. Fantastic book! 250 Marines vs. a Chinese division. Also, check out Jeff Shaara's historical novel "The Frozen Hours" One his best books.
It's a war that still affects the UK. I've been to the UN Cemetery in Busan and most of the soldiers there are Commonwealth (most US were brought back to the US post war), and we have a handful of British soldiers stationed here at Humphreys in Korea.
Just a note guys, but I noticed your recent videos have relied a lot more on narrative and less on player talk and interaction. I kinda miss the player interviews and banter I'm case your playing with the structure going forward. Otherwise I've been really enjoying the battles and history you've all covered!
That is largely due to filming circumstances. Loud public spaces like a museum are really bad for audio. Most of what we filmed was not useable due to echo and crowd noise. Likewise, even our big club games can be hard for audio just due to the number of players.
@@LittleWarsTV ah, that's understandable. Y'all really have been pulling out some show stoppers in terms of size!
Korea time
I'm always happy to see Korean War content for wargaming. Bolt Action published a Korea supplement several years ago (I still haven't painted that KPA Army btw) so more coverage is always welcome.
You almost never see Korea on the table in any scale. At least, not at US shows or conventions.
@@LittleWarsTV why do you think that is?
@@rustyjones2517it get overshadowed by WW2 and Vietnam
This was a great experience! Thanks for letting me join in!!
Fantastic video guys, really enjoyed it! And thanks for using our miniatures too, seeing them on the table in the museum is really special.
Love the figures Leon!
Love when people are introduced to wargaming.
Thank you for making this video really means a lot to me my great-grandfather fought in the Korean war earning purple heart after getting hit by a grenade in a foxhole losing his all of his teeth I really appreciate you guys making this video and tribute of all the men who died and lost their lives. Rest in peace corporal johnny walker
My grandfather fought in Korea during the entire war. He fought on Pork Chop Hill and said it was horrendous. He mentioned seeing a .30 cal machine gun barrel burning white hot and melting due to the amount of Chinese that were charging them. He said the gunner changed the barrel with his BARE HANDS. He said because of that, they stayed alive and were able to keep fighting. If the gun went down they would have been over run. Many many wonderful and incredible stories of bravery from my grandfather.
Excellent video chaps, really good game and history and it was great to see you highlighting the hobby to the public as well. Well done all round!
“No cavalry coming over the hill” interesting comment, but I find it strange how can you discuss this battle, considering, as you say, the historical play you are trying to achieve, without mentioning 41(four one) independent commando Royal Marines? In 1957, some years after the action, four one was awarded a United States Presidential Unit Citation for services with the 1st Division United States Marine Corps at the Chosin Reservoir.
I didn't know this
This one hits close to home for me. My family’s elderly landlord was one of the Chosin Few. I was closer to him and his wife than my actual grandparents. I was too young to hear any of his war stories but learned more of what he went through after he passed. He was always so sweet and good natured. Little did I know as a kid that he was missing toes from frostbite. Thankful for our troops and their sacrifice.
I would really like for you to do a Narnia wargame. The 16th of October for the 83rd anniversary of the publishing of The lion the witch and the wardrobe.I think you would enjoy that.
My Grandfather was wounded at Chosin with 41 (Independent) Commando Royal Marines (Task Force Drysdale) as a Lieutenant having also served in the Mediterranean during WW2. His Regimental unit citation is on the wall of my parent's house.
Wow, that's quite the family story. Incredible 41 Commando and TF Drysdale saw some nasty action in this battle. The photos of the mountain road they had to fight their way up are just daunting to look at
@@LittleWarsTVThank you. I love your content! I was wondering if you have ever considered doing a wargame of the Battle of the Imjin River? I think it has the potential to be an interesting wargame as well as shining further light on the Korean War.
Albert I have recreated the battle of the River Imjin. The custom board I built is now at the Soldiers of Gloucestershire Museum. If you Google it I’m sure you’ll be able to find pictures. I’ve refought the battle a number of times and the Glosters hold out until their ammo runs out every time.
Am I just missing something, because I can't find the rules on Patreon? Great looking game and I have been eyeing the Pendraken's Korean War line for about a year now. Too many other projects, but something that has been tempting me.
Rules post to Patreon tomorrow AM!
Glad to see the Army getting more of a fair shake. The Marine Corps propaganda tends to be very powerful, often pushing down the Army in their favor.
Great episode. Honestly, if you had posted the entire day in real time I'd be happy to watch that! Lots of interesting actions and credit to the Marines historian for giving fair shout out to the poor Army way up alone on the NE side. The rules look interesting, do you have plans to post them anywhere? Thanks again
Where’s Hawkeye and Trapper at?
As a Chinese viewer， thank you for making this video rather objective.
China didn't drive the marines back. The marines farmed the commis for XP.
I like how you had Ed do more cheesy Communist poetry like from the Mekong game.
My grandfather was a centurion loader in 1RTR from Jan 52 to the withdrawal of UN forces. He certainly had some tales to tell! I teach history in secondary school and we do teach Korea, if only the broad strokes. Sadly it's only GCSE so it's only available to those who choose history. Great video and concept guys.
I'm quite interested in the rules you have used. Had a look and suspect they would be easily customised for other periods. Might try it as WW2 game as my Korean army lacks numbers. Zero is the number I have.
Looks great! Good to see the public engaging too. Thanks for sharing.
As a general rule if the question is was it Macarthur's fault the answer is usually yes.
Excellent stuff! Feels kind of like the Franklin Expedition, but replace winter and greed with the Chinese; these sorts of last ditch defenses makes for very entertaining wargaming. Will you guys ever cover India or perhaps WWII Burma?
I just knew this was going to be a top notch video the moment I heard Ed’s powerful and commanding voice. Ed 2023
So glad to see the return of communist Ed. This needs to continue.
That was a real nail biter. You've modeled the real battle well for there to be such a close outcome.
The Chinese were about 4 companies away from eliminating the 5th Marine Regiment. They almost pulled this one off.
-20 degrees. So just like a Wisconsin Winter!
Me clicking on the video: a new little wars episode? Cool!
Me when video reaches its end: “🎵From the Halls of Montezuma. To the shores of Tripoli; (a little manly tear attempts to escape) We fight our country’s battles in the air, on land, and sea🎵”
Hoooah!
Gotta love the song!!
How appropriate to upload this video on "the Forgotten War" on Memorial Day. Thank you LWTV!
Very intentional, yes! This is a period of history that is criminally underserved, not just in wargaming, but more broadly as well.
@@LittleWarsTV It is sadly forgotten. I would love it if a movie, (or better yet a tv mini series), were made on Jeff Shaara's book "The Frozen Hours."
In this battle the British Royal marines were awarded a USA president unit citation a very rare honour indeed.
Good game gentlemen, good to see some history going to what is commonly referred to as the “forgotten war”.
Tho, for all you yanks had this battle, us scots had the 2nd battle of Hook.
First I love the game congratulations, and is any chance to get the rules?
Thanks, Louis
Glad you enjoyed it! Not sure if this game will be more fully developed or not, but the playtest version is out there for our patrons to try right now
Great video. Now I need to see how you made the table.
Love the Mao comments. Fantastic content as always fellas. I am always excited to watch your videos when they release.
Thanks Jared!
Overall a great video on a largely overlooked war. It's a shame Korea doesn't get much attention: I read somewhere that nearly as many Americans died in Korea as Vietnam, despite Korea being a far shorter conflict, which is astounding.
One complaint is that I wish we could have heard more from the players, about their strategy, plans, and reactions. This wargame consequently feels a lot more distant than most. Overall good, but with since issues.
Even amongst all of the excellent scenarios Little Wars puts on, this one looks exceptional. Well done, Little Wars.
You did this at the museum? Fantastic.
Enjoy all your episodes, but this one was particularly interesting. My father was in the war (Army, 1951), my brother is a former Marine, and I've spent over 20 years studying the North Koreans (professionally) so the history is pretty well known in the family.
2:40 "Colder than the heart of a Commie"!
Some of the Commandos from Task Force Drysdale were among the first to fight themselves free of the encirclement, but upon reaching safety many of the Commandos sought out the nearest ammunition box, resupplied themselves, and turned back up the trail.
The story goes that one Marine asked a Commandos why he was going back towards the reservoir. The Commando replied: "Because we're not finished with the Bastards yet."
There is some great footage on RUclips of Lt. Col. Drysdale and his Commandos being awarded Silver Stars by the USMC for their actions.
When we planned this episode, we considered just gaming TF Drysdale as the action. That was an angle we talked about. Such an incredible story
That building is clearly visible on I-95. I never know it was for the marines.
Amazing explosion counters, nice work.
Nicely done. Now you need to work with the National Museum of the Army and Navy to find cool scenarios to play out in those museums. Just let your local subscribers know when you will be playing so we can drop by to watch!
Great video. To the Chosin Few, and all those who served honorably in the US, or elsewhere.
Well said, Eric. Today is a day to remember them all.
This looks awesome!
Don't know much about the Korean war. Thanks for the history lesson.
They call it the Forgotten War for a reason!
@LittleWarsTV I remember learning a bit about it during high school. But it was very brief.
My grandfather served in Korea and I’m Glad to see it get some coverage.
Wow! Great episode! Loved were you played it! Now, thanks to you, I've got another place I want to visit. 🤬😜
Great terrain! Appears to be felt, but over what?
It’s over many layers of white styrofoam insulation panels. The cheap 1” thick kind! I think we have as many as 10 levels of it, cut into hill formation shapes
"Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snows of far-off Northern lands
And in sunnu tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job
The United States Marines"
-the Marines' Hymn
"Men in rags, men who froze,
Still that Army met its foes,
And the Army went rolling along.
Faith in God, then we're right,
And we'll fight with all our might,
As the Army keeps rolling along."
- the Army goes Rolling Along, the Army Song
Another excellent exemplar of what wargaming is and why it matters. Playing games of war is one thing but wargaming is entirely far more comprehensive in what it seeks to test and explore and what it does to educate. It was also nice to see elements of planning, elephant in the room, which is still underestimated or understood. Best wishes and a great job again.
One of the greatest fighting withdraws in military history!!
You know, it’s incredible how many books you an read and and videos you can watch about the Korean War and still be surprised by how much of a prick MacArthur was every time
I think it outstanding that the museum hosted your club and put you out front & center in a huge common area. It would be even nicer if you guys get invited back and maybe put on an exposition about Tarawa or Iwo Jima.
Now I have to ask a burning question. Your club/members make such outstanding one-of-a-kind terrain tabletops for your gaming scenario's, what happens to them afterwards? Does Mile have a huge storage building with shelfing to keep all of this stuff as well as the many different miniatures? Do certain club members storage a percentage of this accumulation? Do's your club charge "Dues" that are used to pay for all of this stuff or do you rotate turns deciding what war/battle to fight next and the winner pays for it? I mean really, when your doing battles in 3mm, 6mm, 10mm & 15mm etc... that's a lot of stuff to acquire just in the miniature department not counting the custom terrains.
Maybe you could do an episode just going into answering some of these questions. I am sure I am not the only one wondering about all of this.
My favorite Napoleonic battle is Austerlitz. A masterpiece of maneuver strategy and timing.
Great Presentstion.
Sounds like it was a game where no one can feel bad about how they did.
The marines got out of there relatively intact, although they paid for it. The army player, he got destroyed, but he tied down a lot of Chinese forces and the unit gave a very good accounting of themselves, selling their lives dearly (I agree that the real army soldiers likely were mistreated by historians... we weren't there, and we don't know what they went through - its easy to hold your ground on a tablletop where thousands of real enemy soldiers aren't pouring out of the mountains at you, guns blazing. reality is a bit more problematic).
The Chinese players ALMOST had the 7th. and did maul them for their trouble, and did take the 31st, so again, a very good showing.
In a game I don't feel too bad if I almost did it, means I put in a solid effort, and luck or just superior play by the other player was the difference. This one looked to be a nail biter for the American players, and the Chinese players were so very close to victory.
As always, awesome content.
Really excellent wargame for an incredible battle. Martin Russ' account is highly recommended. 'They wanted that hill'. Perhaps the 'doggies' stand in the east was the only surprise, since historically the 7th division was filled out by hastily drafted Korean civilians with very low morale and training. These troops would surely have fled after the initial attacks. The failure of the Marines to put a company to guard the Toktong pass also seems an oversight...
Interesting battle, not really known about is the UK.
As for this episode, for me, too much educational info and too little actual wargaming.
But thanks anyway.
I agree that the rct commander did well, especially from a gaming sense. Judging by the museum (director?)'s comments and the fact rct's survival wasn't an objective, it honestly feels historically and in game he was fated for destruction
Studied CAS in the Korean war for my MA and have to say Marine CAS was so superior at the front lines.
So everything that this marine history guy says about marines is true save for the numbers, but to that point no one expected Korea or china to beat a world superpower. What I'm saying is, this video is tinged with marine propaganda, and makes me mildly uncomfortable.
I worked with a man who was a Marine mortarman and from a high ridge, with his star shells, witnessed the Chinese hordes advancing across the Yalu River. Knowing how much I enjoyed history, and him being without children, he gifted me the bayonet he carried through the struggle and told me he wanted it to go to someone who would appreciate it. It is a prized possession of mine to this day.
Amazing that Chosin was not another Little Big Horn. Surprised that anyone made it out of that frozen wasteland.
Incredible!
I've noticed it is very common for your club to attach information tags to the backs of you unit bases. What are these tags made of and what information do you put on them? Bonus question: How do you print the information on the tags?
Fantastic video. Maybe we could have a game on Pork Chop hill.
Been there, done that. Korea was indeed one of the coldest duty stations I have ever been too. I have met two Chosen Frozen in my life. They were both absolutely marvelous characters.
Brilliant board!! Kudos to whoever put those hills together, scale is fantastic :)
Thanks so much these are wonderful. You bring history to life.
My great uncle Jim calendar fought there. Semper Fi.
What figures did you use? I’ve been looking for marines in the winter gear.
Dave Vickers was a Marine tanker and a fantastic model maker! Semper Fi
It’s a tad gamey, but given China had to destroy just one unit, I’d have thrown everything at the Army and destroyed it for the win
Great video highlighting a generally forgotten war. Hats off and hand shake to all the veterans who served there!
Do you guys think you could do a wargame one the last stand of the glorious glousters I forgot the name of the battle but it an amazing story from the korean war
love that the socialist quotes are back...very funny
Great video as always! Can the rules be downloaded from your website?
Love this episode would also love the full videos with the hours of the game being played no editing.
I would love to see Battle of Dorylaeum.
I want to see if yall could pull off the same defense
Bohemond did.
Great video of a fantastic game in a brilliant setting